Leaving Neverland

[Robert Lynch]

From the 1988 John Lennon Imagine biography, it is eerie how he is dressed exactly like James Safechuck.

[Blakeston]

Are the photos of naked boys found by police in MJ's home a matter of public record? I once searched for a reference to it in reputable newspapers, magazines, etc., and couldn't find anything.

[Dorne2.0]

16 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Are the photos of naked boys found by police in MJ's home a matter of public record? I once searched for a reference to it in reputable newspapers, magazines, etc., and couldn't find anything.

I found a transcript of the prosecution wanting to use them as evidence, and also about the picture of the Spence kid naked at 7.... I'll look for it in my browser history. 

[doodlebug]

26 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Are the photos of naked boys found by police in MJ's home a matter of public record? I once searched for a reference to it in reputable newspapers, magazines, etc., and couldn't find anything.

The photos and other materials were found by the sheriff's department when they raided Neverland in 2003 prior to filing criminal charges against him.  They are listed in the Sheriff's Department documents which were supposedly obtained via a Freedom of Information request by the press. These documents are said to have been typed on Sheriff's Department forms and contain a case number which apparently corresponds to the number of Jackson's case.  There were also a bunch of photos which are purported to have been removed from the home and placed in the files.  Since the images there are ones that are found in several places online, it is hard to prove that they actually belonged to Jackson.  Of course, the Jackson estate claims that these documents are falsified and an attempt to smear Michael in death.

One of the employees at Neverland testified that Michael sent him to grab a specific photo of a naked little boy from Jackson's private rooms and destroy it as the raid took place.  I believe that employee didn't destroy the photo and did state that he thought the photo was of Jimmy Safechuck.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/michael-jackson-stockpiled-child-porn-animal-torture-photos-according-to-newly-surfaced-report_n_5769644fe4b0a75709b7d847

Edited April 3, 2019 by doodlebug

[andromeda331]

There is no reason for Michael to have pictures of naked boys. Zero reason for it. 

[Ubiquitous]

I watched this last month and didn't find the forum until now. Wow. I am not sure how to process this... was he an evil man or fucked in the head (arrested development)?

On ‎3‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 8:27 AM, Simon Boccanegra said:

I really do not remember seeing the now-infamous Pepsi "dressing room" commercial when it was a current ad, the one with the young James Safechuck, but I think I would have found it "off" just on its own merits, not even knowing what the child actor in the commercial would later claim. The boy is portrayed as being fascinated by Michael's personal effects and private world rather than the music or the concert. Then the eventual face-to-face encounter looks nearly flirtatious. Maybe I'm just viewing it with inevitable hindsight, but it's a completely different vibe from what I remember in other "kid meets idol" ads, like the Coke commercial with the football player Joe Greene.  

I had totally forgotten about the Pepsi commercial until they showed it, but yeah, they played it a lot and I remember feeling very differently watching it back then.

[Robert Lynch]

And this was considered normal by 1993 standards?!? That's almost beyond flirty. There's Eddie and Frank Cascio. Can't believe that was allowed. Try doing that with the Stranger Things cast. Yeah, that wouldn't fly by today's standards. I know it's a photo op, but what...? I don't know what to say about this.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Robert Lynch

[Dorne2.0]

What was the pictures of animal torture supposed to be for? They said they believe it was used to groom boys and I don't understand. Look how evil the world is and such? It's you and me against the world.  Or did Michael himself like seeing these pictures, I wonder?

Edited April 3, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Watching that video, it becomes almost impossible to believe Sean's denial that he was abused by MJ and that he knew nothing of any other kids being abused.  Monkeys and bananas?  Bathing together? Michael coming into his bedroom and the monkey cowering in fear while Michael offered him treats?  Escaping the law and the paparazzi by flying off into space just the two of them?The whole thing would be creepy as hell if we didn't already know what we know.  If that video was meant to be a loving tribute to his childhood relationship with Michael, he missed the mark by a mile.

https://www.npr.org/sections/allsongs/2016/06/03/480451184/all-songs-1-sean-lennons-surreal-ode-to-michael-jacksons-pet-chimp-bubbles

Quote

It's like a reflection of a reflection. As a visual poem, I think it represents something real: [Michael] was very lonely and he was weird and had weird interests. And he was in this kind of Peter Pan universe — this bubble he'd created for himself. And there's something dark about that. There's something sad about that."

Quote

It just felt right. I think I'd resisted much of my life talking about those kinds of stories, because they just seemed so hard to figure out how to translate them or relate them. And I just thought it was an interesting metaphor for what happened to a lot of Michael's friends who were my age. It felt like there was something odd going on, and I still don't know what it was. Nothing ever happened with me in an illegal way, but the whole place just felt like I was in some Peter Pan fantasy land. And there was a sense that when Bubbles got too old, he'd have to be gotten rid of, because chimpanzees turn into angry adults or dangerous adults. And it just felt like that was something I could relate to in terms of the whole situation out there. Because there was something Michael liked about hanging out with kids, because they're so innocent and fun. Then, when you become an adult, it felt like you were a chimpanzee: too old to play with anymore."

It's a good article, I wanted to quote the entire thing.

I can believe that Sean wasn't molested, among other things, he was very close to his dad and mother, who adored, protected, and doted on him, and there is no way that MJ could "groom" Ono or John with the usual tricks, fame, glamor, or buying them things.  Sean would have told, and MJ was very careful in the selection of families/children to groom.  Even if MJ wanted to, I think Sean would have been too big a risk for him to take.  Also, I can't in any universe imagine John Lennon allowing Sean being left alone with MJ, let alone spending nights in his bed.

He did seem to realize the creepiness even as a child, and he really captured it all well in this song, and in this video.  Well done.

ETA:

Hmm, I just realized that Sean was 5 when John Lennon died, and that he didn't visit Neverland until much later.  I need coffee.  I know how protective John was about Sean, but I don't know much about Yoko as a mom.  Found this article:

https://mjandboys.wordpress.com/2016/05/11/michael-jackson-sean-lennon-1984-unknown/
 

Quote

“It’s a weird story, but I didn’t touch him. We (Lennon & Ronson) used to watch the porn channel because we were like, 10 and ‘Oh my god (boobs)!’ So Michael was in bed. And me and Sean said,’Michael, do you want to see something cool?’ We turned the dial to the porn channel and there were strippers shaking their (boobs) around. We were like, ‘Michael, Michael, how cool is this?’ We turned around and he was cringing, saying,’Ooh stop it,stop it,ohh, it’s so silly.’ We were like,’Michael, you have to look, maybe your not seeing it right, it’s naked girls!’ He was not down with the program whatsoever! I think he had really strong feminist views on porn.” ~ Mark Ronson

Jackson clearly didn’t have feminist views on porn, his porn collection presented at the 2005 molestation trial proved the opposite. His porn collection included BDSM, rape centered porn and other non-traditional forms of pornography.

No adult should be lying in bed watching porn videos with 10-year-old boys. This alone can be considered as molestation and it is illegal as well, for good reasons. It also makes one wonder why MJ had porn channels available if he invited young boys to share his bedroom frequently. The sleepovers took place at Hayvenhurst.

According to Sean, he also had sleepovers at the Neverland ranch. Jackson bought Neverland in 1988, so those sleepovers probably took place when Sean was between the ages of thirteen and fifteen.

Quote

Sean Lennon has spent a lot of time with Jackson when he was around the age of 8-15.

Quote

Ronson says that he and Sean Lennon used to watch the porn channel at Michael’s house when they were like ten, with Michael lying in the bed right behind them. Ronson told Jackson: “Look, it’s naked girls”. Jackson’s answer was: “Oh stop it,oh stop it, it’s so silly”. However, Jackson didn’t stop them from watching porn.

Um, holy shit.  He spent many nights at Neverland.  I honestly do not think that would have happened in John Lennon was still alive.  Wow.

It's still very possible Sean wasn't molested though, it could go either way really.  I can see motivations for MJ to not do it (the whole fatherless child thing, the power of Yoko) and I can see why Sean would keep it to himself if it did, even now.  Damn.

He didn't spend time at Neverland until he was a teenager, probably too old for MJ then.
 

Quote

What ever happened to Bubbles the chimp?

Bubbles was relocated to Bob Dunn's ranch in Sylmar, California. "Bubbles is an adult chimp and a wild animal," Dunn stated at the time. ... Since the closure of Dunn's facility in 2004, Bubbles has been kept at the Center for Great Apes in Wauchula, Florida, where he is said to enjoy painting and listening to flute music.

Bubbles (chimpanzee) - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubbles_(chimpanzee)

Edited April 3, 2019 by Umbelina
obvious edit above

[MilkMachine]

I don't think what Lennon says about the song and his intentions in writing it, and creating the video, match the tone of the song or the video. The feeling that the video evokes, especially with all of the sexual imagery, goes far beyond surreal.

Now, I can only guess why Lennon would feel compelled to write such a song, and why he would shy away from addressing all of the implications of the art. Ultimately, that's his choice. But again, the words and feelings Lennon speaks of when he talks about the song are out of sync with the feelings I have after experimenting the song and video as a listener and viewer.

[Umbelina]

16 minutes ago, MilkMachine said:

I don't think what Lennon says about the song and his intentions in writing it, and creating the video, match the tone of the song or the video. The feeling that the video evokes, especially with all of the sexual imagery, goes far beyond surreal.

Now, I can only guess why Lennon would feel compelled to write such a song, and why he would shy away from addressing all of the implications of the art. Ultimately, that's his choice. But again, the words and feelings Lennon speaks of when he talks about the song are out of sync with the feelings I have after experimenting the song and video as a listener and viewer.

I think he did tell the truth, but only in the song.  He's already been attacked for that song by the MJ fanatical fans, well before Leaving Neverland came out.

That baby bottle.

Wasn't that story in Leaving Neverland as well, drinking out of baby bottles with MJ?  I've read so much lately, I'm not sure where I heard that, the documentary, a deposition, or where... That video was extremely well done, and pairing the baby bottle with (to me) obvious semen imagery, especially combined with the rest of it?  There is no doubt in my mind that, at the very least, whether Sean was personally abused or not?  He knows the truth about MJ.

[Robert Lynch]

Taj Jackson seeking $777k to fund a gofundme page to create a docuseries defending MJ

Really? 

Edited April 3, 2019 by Robert Lynch

[Brattinella]

2 minutes ago, Robert Lynch said:

Taj Jackson seeking $777k to fund a gofundme page to create a docuseries defending MJ

Really? 

Oh, hell no!

[izabella]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think he did tell the truth, but only in the song.  He's already been attacked for that song by the MJ fanatical fans, well before Leaving Neverland came out.

That baby bottle.

Wasn't that story in Leaving Neverland as well, drinking out of baby bottles with MJ?  I've read so much lately, I'm not sure where I heard that, the documentary, a deposition, or where... That video was extremely well done, and pairing the baby bottle with (to me) obvious semen imagery, especially combined with the rest of it?  There is no doubt in my mind that, at the very least, whether Sean was personally abused or not?  He knows the truth about MJ.

There was a picture posted in this thread, or it could have been a link to pictures, of Jackson with Emmanuel Lewis and there were two baby bottles right there with them.

Found it by googling: 

Edited April 3, 2019 by izabella

[Razzberry]

Yes, that picture with Emmanuel Lewis and the baby bottles is also on that excellent site that someone posted mjandboys.  It lists all of MJ's special friends in chronological order.  

Bubbles also slept in Michael's room until he got too big to handle.  Just sayin.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Razzberry

[Melina22]

25 minutes ago, izabella said:

There was a picture posted in this thread, or it could have been a link to pictures, of Jackson with Emmanuel Lewis and there were two baby bottles right there with them.

What??? Because that's not weird AT ALL! 

If I had walked into a room and found my 35 year old husband lying on a bed with a young boy and 2 baby bottles and no babies in sight... I don't even know. I think my head would have exploded. 

[Dorne2.0]

1 hour ago, Robert Lynch said:

Taj Jackson seeking $777k to fund a gofundme page to create a docuseries defending MJ

Really? 

Am I the only one wondering how will they do that? Stupid... "You see it's totally normal to sleep with little boys and than lose interest when they grow up". MJ was not a pedo at all. It makes me think of this video on youtube sarcastically called:  '89 Michael Shopping for Ring at Zales for BROOKE SHIELDS AND OTHER WOMEN! The guy who uploaded the video is totally being sarcastic and he even liked a comment that said: 

"MICHAEL .J.JACKSON WAS NOT A PAEDOPHILE ! He was just someone who liked hanging around with 12 years olds,sleeping with them,take nudey pictures of them while paedo-ing on their unfortunate assess because he didn't have a childhood or something. BUT HE DEFINITELY WAS NOT A PAEDOPHILE."

Anyway there are a lot of comments of people who believe the guy is a fan defending MJ like them and it' hilarious.

Then again there's this girl on youtube saying the books with pictures of nude boys was art and that there's a copy of the book in the White House Library. Being this truth or not, the book together with everything else paints a very bad picture.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[Umbelina]

38 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

Yes, that picture with Emmanuel Lewis and the baby bottles is also on that excellent site that someone posted mjandboys.  It lists all of MJ's special friends in chronological order.  

Bubbles also slept in Michael's room until he got too big to handle.  Just sayin.

https://mjandboys.wordpress.com/2018/09/02/why-michael-jacksons-victims-may-stay-silent/ 

Very good link on that page about why victims don't tell, and specifically why boys don't tell.

[Dorne2.0]

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

https://mjandboys.wordpress.com/2018/09/02/why-michael-jacksons-victims-may-stay-silent/ 

Very good link on that page about why victims don't tell, and specifically why boys don't tell.

Yes, Oprah said she has being said for years, masturbating a little boy may make him feel good at the time, their mind is too immature to consent, and later they have troubles, later it haunts them when they realize it, they have conflicted feelings: shame, guilt, affection for the abuser.... and sometimes they lie to themselves forever and refuse to accept it as abuse. I hope other victims come foward now but with the attacks on Wade and James might scare them. I so wish more victims would support them.

"Wade Robson has the potential to put egg on their faces so rather than listen to his full story, they prefer to support a dead multimillion dollar pop star instead of a living possible abuse victim. " THIS SO MUCH.

"What has society come to when we turn away people that are hurt in favor of a man who shared his bed with young boys? Hopefully they will come to their senses and stop making excuses for a fatally flawed man."

https://mjandboys.wordpress.com/2018/09/02/why-michael-jacksons-victims-may-stay-silent/

This is what bothers me the most: WHY do fans choose to defend a DEAD POP STAR than LIVING PROBABLE VICTIMS? Do they have to actack and threaten them? They act as if not in a million years it could be possible they are MJ'S victims and attack them, threathen them, do they have no compassion?

How I wish some irrefutable evidence would come out. Would these people feel guilty at all?

From the video: How did everyone didn't notice this behaviour was creepy?

"Jackson was in a jewlrely store with a 12-year-old friend on Monday pricing rings (...)"

"Now how did Jackson react when he detained by the security guards?

(...)

"Do you think he was nervous? (...) "

Store employee: He was very nervous, even in the store, that's what tipped off my manager to... something was wrong, because he acted very very nervous."

"Was he jumpy, what was it like?"

" I... he just reacted very nervously, he never said anything to me (...) he.. ugh... was with a small boy and he would tell the small boy exactly what he wanted to see."

"Oh, I see, when he was when you were showing him jewelry he wouldn't talk to you, the small boy was the interpreter."

" Right because I would have probably recognized his voice (..)"

Oh bless her naive heart, like he couldn't afford people to bring rings to his house for him to look at, or an adult interpretor.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[Dorne2.0]

https://mjandboys.wordpress.com/2019/01/27/another-boy-accuses-michael-jackson-of-molestation-2019-michael-jacobshagen/

Another molestation accusation, from a german boy... I don't know if people know about this accusation. 

He met the King of Pop in Paris in 1995 and was invited on his European tour three years later where he infamously spent three weeks with the singer in a hotel suite. He was eleven years old when he met Jackson.

“Suddenly I was being picked up and taken to another hotel. When I went into his suite and Michael Jackson was there waiting for me, I just thought ‘Wow’. I was a huge fan.”

“He gave me a hug and said in German ‘I love you’. We spent the day playing games like hide and seek and on his PlayStation.

“After that he kept phoning every day asking ‘Do you want to come again?’ and we spent the whole holiday together.”

He was invited by Michael to join him during concerts of his History tour. He dressed up as a mini MJ, which was typical for MJ’s young friends.

“Michael invited us to other concerts, including the HIStory Tour, when I was 14. I travelled with him to other countries.”

Michael Jacobshagen recalls that Jackson loved to play hide and seek and avoided to watch the news. According to him, Jackson collected Disney movies and watched them with his young friend.

Jackson also signed many photos/books for Jacobshagen during that time:

He remembers that Jackson felt a lot of pressure during the tour and had sleeping problems. The 14-year-old witnessed Michael Jackson taking medicines. He also says that Michael Jackson simply turned away from people who once hurted him. Jackson’s best friends were kids, as Jacobshagen says, Jackson rarely trusted adults. In 1997, Jackson invited him to London and Poland. The two of them also had sleepovers together. Jacobshagen says that they were sexually motivated.

“When I slept in his bed, we wore just boxer shorts and he would put his arm around me and push his body to my body, like you would with a girlfriend,” Jacobshagen told the Sunday Mirror.

Jackson had a PlayStation in his hotel room that they played with in the evenings.

Jacobshagen says that he was bullied by his classmates and other kids, because they assumed that there was something sexual going on between Jackson and him.

“He would put our bodies on each other and kiss me on the head and cheek. I woke many times and his hands were on me… one hand on the top of my legs and one hand around me.”

“He’d pull me closer and be grabbing me more and kissing me more on the head and on the cheek, He would also stroke my hair,” he claimed.

Jacobshagen confessed that he found it very difficult to say “no” to Michael Jackson, which is understandable. Jackson once gave Jacobshagen a copy of “The boy: a photographic essay”, a book which was made by convicted pedophiles, which depicts young boys between the ages of nine and thirteen, fully nude or half nude. In a personal note within the book, Jackson refers to Jacobshagen as “my Rubba Rubba” which he believes to be a reference to what they did in bed together.

He also claimed that Michael stripped naked in front of him in a hotel hot tub in 1998. That also happend when Jacobshagen was fourteen years old.

He said: “We were in the Jacuzzi inside Michael’s bathroom. He took his swim shorts off and said ‘If you want, you can take yours off as well’.

“I told him ‘No, I don’t do that. I don’t feel comfortable being naked. I was 14, but I always looked younger.”

During the weeks he spent on tour with the star, Jacobshagen would be lavished with expensive presents.

““He overstepped the mark with me and with other children.”

Furthermore, Jacobshagen often wanted to sleep alone, but Michael wouldn’t let him.

“I’m almost the same age now Michael was when he met me.

“If I was to share a bed with a child, this would not be right. It is not normal and it’s not right.

“He was always asking me to sleep in his bed. I would say, ‘No Michael, I can sleep in my own suite’, but he was saying ‘Please, please… for Michael Jackson’.

“It affected me psychologically, but I never told Michael. It made me feel shame. Teachers warned my mother about allegations about Michael, but she said it was my decision if I wanted to keep seeing him.”

Moreover, Jacobshagen stated the following:

“He never carried out an explicit sexual act on me, but there were sexual intentions.

“He must have been getting something out of it sexually. I feel now like he was testing me, seeing how far he could go.”

https://mjandboys.wordpress.com/2019/01/27/another-boy-accuses-michael-jackson-of-molestation-2019-michael-jacobshagen/

Striping naked in front of a child or taking his own shorts off in the jacuzzi with the child and encouraging the boy to do the same is a crime, no?

This guy is not sueing for money, so, I want to see what the fans will say. He wants the fame of being a potential victim to MJ? Who wants to be known for that? I am happy he spoke out and I hope the story gets attention.

When I saw that book "the boy's allies" on Sean Lennon's video I was instantly reminded of "The Betrayal of Youth" which is a book with PIE (Pedophile information exchange) and NAMBLA ideology. Now is this one of the book Michael had and the people who made it are convicted pedophiles? How much did Michael research NAMBLA and other groups that fight for the extinction of ages of consent?

Edited April 5, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[TigerLynx]

I imagine the Michael Jackson defenders will ask the same questions people always do when they are trying to blame the victims for being molested, raped, domestically abused, etc:

Why did you come forward now?

Why did you stay married to him?

Why did you go out on a date with him?

How short was your skirt?

[Robert Lynch]

I think what shocked me is that his obsession with boys dates back to 1979 with Terry George. I didn't think he would have went that far back in time, but Terry's story is interesting. All because of a phone conversation while MJ masturbated.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Robert Lynch

[Neko]

I'm glad more people are coming forward.  Good for them for being brave.  And, just because it can't be said enough, fuck Michael Jackson.

[Dorne2.0]

4 minutes ago, Shakma said:

I'm glad more people are coming forward.  Good for them for being brave.  And, just because it can't be said enough, fuck Michael Jackson.

PREACH. I hope even more come forward. Maybe they are still processing like it took James a long time to go public after Wade did. But I' sure history will remember Michael Jackson as a dangerous pedophile.

[Razzberry]

He just didn't care how many lives he damaged.  It was all about HIM, always.  Total narcissist. He thought he was a god and could do whatever he wants - he flaunted it.  Was probably amused by how blind fans can be. 

It's disturbing how many boys started looking effeminate after a while.

[Robert Lynch]

A lot of people thought the last time Jordan Chandler made an appearance was 2005. Actually, it was 2013-2014 to be exact.

He seemed to be trying to live a regular life at this time.

[icecweem]

Sooooo no one is going acknowledge the fact that James Safechuck claimed he was abused at the Neverland train station from 1988 to 1992 but the station wasn't built until 1993 and it didn't finish until 1994. Just putting that out there.

[Melina22]

25 minutes ago, icecweem said:

Sooooo no one is going acknowledge the fact that James Safechuck claimed he was abused at the Neverland train station from 1988 to 1992 but the station wasn't built until 1993 and it didn't finish until 1994. Just putting that out there.

If you go back a few posts we do discuss this a bit although not in great detail. 

[icecweem]

24 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

If you go back a few posts we do discuss this a bit although not in great detail. 

I'm just wondering if MJs nephew will create a documentary in MJs defense. I think that may sway some peoples opinions as well. 

[Umbelina]

49 minutes ago, icecweem said:

I'm just wondering if MJs nephew will create a documentary in MJs defense. I think that may sway some peoples opinions as well. 

I think minds are already made up, and would be even if 10 more people risked telling the truth about their sleepovers with MJ.

[Brattinella]

I think this is a big huge ploy and will result in nothing.  The MJ truthers will lose because he IS guilty!

[Ms. TV]

On ‎4‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 12:10 AM, CeeBeeGee said:

Newsflash: Victims of longterm sexual abuse that happened 25+ during their childhood years ago sometimes misremember details. SHOCKING.

Just finished watching and need to chime in.  I was abducted over 50 years ago when I was eight years old.  I could narrate the entire event second by second as hardly a week goes by that it doesn't pop up in my mind - but the heinous act itself, not what I was wearing or what car he drove, etc. etc. BELIEVE ME, that stuff fills so much of your head and heart causing so much mental anguish that your brain has to weed out superfluous details for one's own sanity.

[Razzberry]

OMG, that's horrible, Ms TV.  Memory is a tricky thing, especially old ones that we've distorted over time. My sister and I remember things from our childhood completely differently.  As a teen I was in a bad car crash that I have no memory of.

I don't know why James thought they had sex in the train station but  I'd love to hear it because I don't think he's intentionally lying. There's just no reason to, it's easy enough to check and not like the train station is important evidence in the overall scheme of things.  Maybe he heard things about that train station, or even fantasized about them being there.  Maybe he has an entirely plausible reason for including it. It doesn't change anything, imo. Just seems like a minor molehill that is desperately being made into a mountain.

https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2012/09/your-memory-is-like-the-telephone-game

[CeeBeeGee]

36 minutes ago, Ms. TV said:

Just finished watching and need to chime in.  I was abducted over 50 years ago when I was eight years old.  I could narrate the entire event second by second as hardly a week goes by that it doesn't pop up in my mind - but the heinous act itself, not what I was wearing or what car he drove, etc. etc. BELIEVE ME, that stuff fills so much of your head and heart causing so much mental anguish that your brain has to weed out superfluous details for one's own sanity.

Oh my God, Ms. How horrifying. So glad you survived.

Yes, I too have been a victim of sexual assault. Once when I was a child (as far as I remember, it only happened once but that one time is indelible) and again as an adult (I should say this was an attempt, I was able to fight him off). The second time I misremembered the assailant's appearance--I swore he was wearing a durag but the police showed me the security footage and he had a cap instead. Again, people often get details wrong when undergoing trauma. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. This is a cynical attempt to cast doubt on these survivors. And why? As someone above said, this is a POP STAR. Look, I loved him too. I LOVED Off the Wall, even more than Thriller. He was a part of my adolescence. But it's impossible to doubt when this many accusers have come forward, all with the same haunted look. (For the record, I believed he was guilty with the first accuser. Partly because of my past, partly because he settled. Who settles when you're accused of child molestation?)

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Ms. TV said:

Just finished watching and need to chime in.  I was abducted over 50 years ago when I was eight years old.  I could narrate the entire event second by second as hardly a week goes by that it doesn't pop up in my mind - but the heinous act itself, not what I was wearing or what car he drove, etc. etc. BELIEVE ME, that stuff fills so much of your head and heart causing so much mental anguish that your brain has to weed out superfluous details for one's own sanity.

I'm so sorry. 

43 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Oh my God, Ms. How horrifying. So glad you survived.

Yes, I too have been a victim of sexual assault. Once when I was a child (as far as I remember, it only happened once but that one time is indelible) and again as an adult (I should say this was an attempt, I was able to fight him off). The second time I misremembered the assailant's appearance--I swore he was wearing a durag but the police showed me the security footage and he had a cap instead. Again, people often get details wrong when undergoing trauma. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. This is a cynical attempt to cast doubt on these survivors. And why? As someone above said, this is a POP STAR. Look, I loved him too. I LOVED Off the Wall, even more than Thriller. He was a part of my adolescence. But it's impossible to doubt when this many accusers have come forward, all with the same haunted look. (For the record, I believed he was guilty with the first accuser. Partly because of my past, partly because he settled. Who settles when you're accused of child molestation?)

I'm so sorry.

[Dorne2.0]

9 hours ago, icecweem said:

Sooooo no one is going acknowledge the fact that James Safechuck claimed he was abused at the Neverland train station from 1988 to 1992 but the station wasn't built until 1993 and it didn't finish until 1994. Just putting that out there.

I actually had noticed that detail before MJ biographer pointed out. I noticed right away watching the the doc and I still believe James was sexually abused by Michael Jackson. So he got a date or place wrong, victims often do.  MJ was abusing these kids sexually, emotionally and mentally so I expect their memories not to be perfect about their experiences since it happened decades ago. I think MJ probably abused him when he was older there and he is probably ashamed or in denial because probably thinks that at his mid teens he should be able to see it was abuse not realizing that since he was groommed since such an early age, even at his mid and late teens (or an adult up until recently) he was still under MJ's control.  I totally understand he would be ashamed to say if he had sex with MJ later especially if it was at an age people think teens are able to consent, like 16 or 17.  MJ probably abused him when they got closer again during Jordan's trial since MJ wanted to make sure he felt special and loved and that all the sex that happened before was not wrong. But of course MJ cultists will explore this, even though it's completly understandable their traumatized minds would remember some things wrong. Sometimes rape victims have sex with their rapists later, especially if it's someone they look up to, or someone they trusted, someone they had an emotional connection to before the rape or if they are held captive or groomed and develop Stockholm Syndrome.

Does anyone thinks Michael was probably desperate when James refused to testify at 2005? Like he said to James he was his first sexual experience, I think Michael spent years working on his grooming techniques. Didn't he groomed James for a year befor touching him? The girl guy story says a lot about how MJ pu feelers out there to see what boys responded to the grooming, so it may have began with gropingand innapropriate touching, than bathing with the first boys, taking naking pictures, than trying oral sex with James and so on. I do believe James was a big deal for him because he went as far as having a mock wedding. Wade happened after James and he didn't do that.  I wonder if rejection from James made him realize that what he did was wrong and that realization, along with raising his children, was part of what contributed to such a trouble mind he needed anesthesia to sleep.

Michael was a bad person and a manipulator, yes, but he was not the type of sadistic pedophile I believe, he probably was the type that call themselves "boy lovers":

"Another aspect people don’t seem to understand is that Michael Jackson may have not even believed that his actions are indeed harmful to his young friends. Many pedophiles convince themselves that they are not harming children, if the sex is consensual (what doesn’t exist, because children do not even understand sex or why people have sex). So, the point of him caring a lot about children doesn’t lead to the conclusion that he wasn’t a pedophile for me personally. "

The page includes a quote from a pedophile talking about being still in his viticms hearts:

Quote

"There are several men today, whom I mentored when they were boys, who hold me in much higher esteem than they did their absent/no good/worthless fathers. They still call me for advice, I’ve even stood in as Father or been the Best Man at their weddings. That says a lot of where I stand in their hearts."

https://mjandboys.wordpress.com/2018/09/02/why-michael-jacksons-victims-may-stay-silent/

Edited April 5, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[qtpye]

This was right before his trial.

[Dorne2.0]

9 minutes ago, qtpye said:

This was right before his trial.

The 2005 trial? Let me watch the whole thing...

Edited April 5, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[Kostgard]

1 hour ago, Dorne2.0 said:

Michael was a bad person and a manipulator, yes, but he was not the type of sadistic pedophile I believe, he probably was the type that call themselves "boy lovers":

There’s probably some truth to this. I was listening to a podcast hosted by people who have some experience dealing with people like MJ (though their main focus is domestic violence, but there are plenty of grooming parallels there), and one of the hosts pointed out that when asked if he was abusing kids, MJ always protested, never denied. What he meant by that was that MJ always said something like “I would never hurt a child!” rather than “I never had sexual contact with a child.” Most likely because he told himself that he wasn’t hurting them - that he loved them. That he was helping them and their families (when in reality he was grooming/manipulating them). And that’s probably why he never scratched his itch with a child from some sex trafficking operation when someone of his means easily could have gotten that and it probably would have been easier/safer with no families to groom and no nosy mothers poking around. But if he did something like that he’d have to face that what he was doing was illegal and wrong. Instead he chose these boys and told himself it was all loving. 

The other host who is the main domestic violence expert on the podcast said she found the messiness of the emotions Wade and James had around MJ were very familiar to her, and she would have called bullshit if they were just straight up “Michael Jackson is a monster for what he did to me and I hate him.” Then combo of love/shame/guilt is something she sees a lot in her work.

And yeah - the mismatch of James’ memory is not weird or a dealbreaker. I wasn’t abused but if you asked me to ID what happened to me at 14 or 16, I wouldn’t be 100% accurate. Human memory sucks. It is not proof of lies - especially when dozens of other things line up perfectly. And it isn’t like the timing is impossible because he was off at boarding school on the other side of the country when the train station was built. We have photographic evidence he was around MJ in 94 and 95. He was shooting his short films at Neverland during that time. It’s entirely plausible he simply got dates wrong.

[Dorne2.0]

Yes, Michael, it's the kids who always want to sleep with you .... it's their idea, sure...

This is what Michael Jackson sounds like to me:

23: 22"(...) He was in bloom (...) that I as a human being bathing him in a certain kind of celestial warm (...)

25:23 (...) So, in the course of our friendship we went on a camping trip...uhh... arranged by him (...)

I was immediatly reminded of this other video. So, watching both videos I can say I am soo creeped out

Edited April 5, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[Irlandesa]

5 hours ago, Razzberry said:

OMG, that's horrible, Ms TV.  Memory is a tricky thing, especially old ones that we've distorted over time. My sister and I remember things from our childhood completely differently.  As a teen I was in a bad car crash that I have no memory of.

There was another study/experiment with a bunch of people who were asked what they can remember of 9/11.  Not necessarily what happened in the news event but their personal experience of it. They found that many details changed over time.  People remember the main trauma but other details are more malleable in the brain.  That doesn't mean that people are lying.  It's the brain doing what the brain does.  I believe they did something similar with Pearl Harbor.  In one of the articles I read, a guy remembers his baseball game being interrupted by news of Pearl Harbor until he remembered that Pearl Harbor happened in Dec. when there was no baseball.   People feel really confident in what they remember even if it's wrong.  There are people who are criticizing some of the not 100% perfect memories who think they remember things correctly that they actually don't.   But it's pretty rare for your everyday Joe or Jane to get their memory fact checked.

So James gets a few irrelevant details wrong about the sexual abuse that happened thirty years ago?  That's pretty natural.  The ambiance wasn't as impactful as the actual abuse just like what you were wearing on 9/11 doesn't matter in the long run.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Irlandesa

[cpcathy]

9 hours ago, Kostgard said:

And yeah - the mismatch of James’ memory is not weird or a dealbreaker. I wasn’t abused but if you asked me to ID what happened to me at 14 or 16, I wouldn’t be 100% accurate. Human memory sucks. It is not proof of lies - especially when dozens of other things line up perfectly. And it isn’t like the timing is impossible because he was off at boarding school on the other side of the country when the train station was built. We have photographic evidence he was around MJ in 94 and 95. He was shooting his short films at Neverland during that time. It’s entirely plausible he simply got dates wrong.

Exactly. For example, take something that happened to you as a child, something bad. How many exact details to you remember? I was bullied as a small child but I wouldn't be able to tell you my exact age or the exact series of events or even what happened afterward, but I know it happened.

[TigerLynx]

Quote

The page includes a quote from a pedophile talking about being still in his viticms hearts: 

Quote

Quote

"There are several men today, whom I mentored when they were boys, who hold me in much higher esteem than they did their absent/no good/worthless fathers. They still call me for advice, I’ve even stood in as Father or been the Best Man at their weddings. That says a lot of where I stand in their hearts."

https://mjandboys.wordpress.com/2018/09/02/why-michael-jacksons-victims-may-stay-silent/

OMG.  What it says it what lousy fathers these poor kids had, and why they were easy prey for this monster.

I go back and forth on whether Michael Jackson knew what he was doing was wrong, believed it wasn't wrong, or was so arrogant that he thought he could do whatever he wanted.

[Robert Lynch]

38 minutes ago, cpcathy said:

Exactly. For example, take something that happened to you as a child, something bad. How many exact details to you remember? I was bullied as a small child but I wouldn't be able to tell you my exact age or the exact series of events or even what happened afterward, but I know it happened.

I think Kate Bush's lyrics to The Man With A Child In His Eyes speaks so much about grooming and this was in 1978! Instead of a boy, It's Kate Bush as the little girl infatuated with an older man. Listen to the lyrics. Interesting that it was dedicated to Steve Blacknell, her boyfriend at the time when he was 22 and Kate being only 17.

Kate Bush-The Man With a Child In His Eyes

Edited April 5, 2019 by Robert Lynch

[Neko]

50 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

I go back and forth on whether Michael Jackson knew what he was doing was wrong, believed it wasn't wrong, or was so arrogant that he thought he could do whatever he wanted.

I think he knew it was illegal, but he didn't think it was wrong.

There is also a bit of arrogance, though: "I'm Michael Jackson, I can do whatever I want with whoever I want."  That's why he was calling Joy Robson at 1:30 AM to have Wade delivered to his bed.  It didn't matter that the family was already fast asleep, Michael wanted what he wanted, when he wanted it.  Gross.

[Razzberry]

[Melina22]

Okay, this is super creepy. We've all been posting a lot on this Leaving Neverland thread for a few weeks. Today I happened to notice an ad right at the top of the thread. I'm definitely not going to click on it for obvious reasons, but it appears to be for a comic or a game called "Boy's Love". Or something like that. Yikes. I hope all the time we've spent here hasn't been misinterpreted by the internet. Now I'm paranoid. I just don't want to be on some weird list just because I wanted to discuss a documentary on child abuse. 

[andromeda331]

I do love how MJ fans think forgetting a few details means their lying. Sure that's proof. MJ admitting to sharing a bed with boys isn't at all proof. One being at correct describe MJ's privates isn't proof either. They expect full proof memories even thought that's unlikely. But also that really would be more suspicious then their account because usually a sign of lying. The way criminal sometime gives play by play of their entire alibi but in the "at eight I went to Starbucks, then went to eat, then went to friend's house and was there for an hour and fifteen minutes, when home and arrived at ten twenty-two, I watched the news on this channel at this time, I called a friend for twenty-two minutes, brushed my teeth at twelve ten and went to bed at twelve twelve and thinks that'll make the cop/detective believe his alibi when all it really does is make them question it more. Or Kavaugh's calendar showing how "busy" he was that week so he couldn't possibly have tried to assault anyone because he was too busy and it wasn't listed. So therefore he has to be telling the truth. Ah, no. James and Wade have been consistent in their stories. The only changes that they have ever made was when one testified for Michael, which again is not uncommon for abuse victims. Women who've been beaten by their boyfriend or husband testify for him, they lie through their teeth that they were ever hit by them and children do the same thing for their abusive mom or dad.

[Robert Lynch]

Jackson family planning their own documentary Investigating Neverland

There is nothing normal about this family. Just zilch.

[Razzberry]

It's funny to hear them accuse anyone of lying.   Jackson is sole person throughout this who seemed so false and lying about everything.  Runner-up would be that favorite of pedophiles, wife killers and violent thugs, Los Angeles "Criminal Defense Lawyer of the Year"  Tom Mesereau. 

Dan Reed said he would love to make a film about the 2005 trial, but this is almost too much to hope for.