S01.E12: Vietnam

[dargosmydaddy]

Quote

The Clearys are conflicted when Lawrence and Eddie are drafted to serve in the Vietnam War. Although Eddie and Lawrence try to avoid going, they come to terms with their fate. Though they are both proud, Mike and Peggy take matters into their own hands and try to derail Lawrence and Eddie's decision to serve their country.

[Bteam]

Peggy.  Ran. Over. Lawrence. 

[LBS]

Ok two topics but this is has most eye icons so I’m going in on it.

I loved this episode.  I thought they handled the topic really well.  It wasn’t preachy but they handled both sides well.  Watching Mike throwing up after hearing both sons being drafted and hearing Peggy’s voice waver talking about her boys made me tear up.  

Lawrence  reasoning for joining up rang true to his seminary teaching IMO.  My brother was in the seminary in the 2000s but left because he couldn’t compromise a lot of his values (we grew up liberal Catholic and he wanted to get married) with what was being taught.  But the value of helping out your fellow man and sacrificing for others is paramount in him and in Lawrence .  Lawrence grew up a lot in this episode.  I finally got him.

[AnnaRose]

21 minutes ago, LBS said:

Ok two topics but this is has most eye icons so I’m going in on it.

I loved this episode.  I thought they handled the topic really well.  It wasn’t preachy but they handled both sides well.  Watching Mike throwing up after hearing both sons being drafted and hearing Peggy’s voice waver talking about her boys made me tear up.  

Lawrence  reasoning for joining up rang true to his seminary teaching IMO.  My brother was in the seminary in the 2000s but left because he couldn’t compromise a lot of his values (we grew up liberal Catholic and he wanted to get married) with what was being taught.  But the value of helping out your fellow man and sacrificing for others is paramount in him and in Lawrence .  Lawrence grew up a lot in this episode.  I finally got him.

Same here.  This was a complicated topic, and they came through with an episode that was both thoughtful and moving, but still had plenty of laughs too.  Fantastic episode!

Side note:  My mom also ran over my brother (his foot) back in the seventies... but it wasn't to get him out of the draft.  Just a dumb accident - brother getting out of the car before it was completely stopped, if I recall correctly.

[Bteam]

37 minutes ago, LBS said:

was

 

38 minutes ago, LBS said:

wrence  reasoning for joining up rang true to his seminary teaching IMO.  My brother was in the seminary in the 2000s but left because he couldn’t compromise a lot of his values (we grew up liberal Catholic and he wanted to get married) with what was being taught.  But the value of helping out your fellow man and sacrificing for others is paramount in him and in Lawrence .  Lawrence grew up a lot in this episode.  I finally got him.

 Agree. Lawrence’s reason for going was spot on.  And Mike’s face when Lawrence told him he wasn’t going to make Mike proud- wow. I loved the Eddie/Dad conversation .... but I’m ready for another Lawrence talk, like in the pilot. Actually, after RUNNING HIM OVER I’m ready for a Peggy/Lawrence scene.  

[Starchild]

I was going into this one ready to blast it, based on the episode description, because I couldn't see a guy like Mike actively trying to get his sons out of military service. So this turned out better than expected.

[biakbiak]

What the hell did Lawrence think was going to happen when he dropped out of the seminary? I mean he wouldn’t necessarily have gotten drafted, my dad dropped out of grad school in Michigan because he hated Ann Arbor so much but he made the decision even though he could have been drafted so Lawrence should have realized it was a possibility and probably factor it into his decision. 

[mojito]

The show is distorting historical facts a bit once again. If memory serves, the lottery of 1972 happened in February, not the summer. The lottery of that year applied to those born in 1953. That would make Eddie 19. No problem. He was left back once. But then the show stated that a few months later, the draft had ended. The last draft was in December 1972, and that one would have drafted those born in 1952. That would make Eddie 20. That would mean that he was left back 2 times. That boy is a terrible student. Or it was only Lawrence who was truly in danger of being drafted.

The show hasn't made it clear what Lawrence and Eddie planned to do after the summer of 1972 was over. Was Lawrence transferring to another school? If Eddie wasn't going to college, why wasn't he looking for full-time work? Or was he? (I still wonder why the hell his girlfriend is wearing a flip in the 1970s.)

There are guys who spent their entire high school career with Vietnam looming over their heads while rumors of the end of college deferments were rampant. A kind of sad, confusing time (early 60s to early 70s). 

This episode convinced me that the character who has the lines that I find the funniest is Mike.

I liked how they blended comedy with the tragedy of an unpopular war in this episode. Even the most caustic humor worked for me.

[biakbiak]

3 hours ago, mojito said:

ended. The last draft was in December 1972

That ended up being the last draft call date as in the last time they called people up, but there were still draft lotteries through 1975 it’s just no one got called up because they weren’t needed.

I get that they were worried about two sons going to be Vietnam but I also feel that Peggy would be pissed about all the wasted milk!

Edited February 6, 2019 by biakbiak

[mammaM]

Peggy Ran Over Lawrence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hahahahahahaha. But my favorite line of the night was when they were in the hospital, Peggy asks about Eddie and Mike, without missing a beat or looking at her, says "stay away from Eddie". As good as the boys were, Mike was the MVP of this episode

[festivus]

My favorite line of the night was Timmy "Say hi to Pepe for me" or something like that. I loved the smug look on his face.

 

I knew they'd have to do a Vietnam episode sooner or later. When Peggy looked up in that mirror I was like yep, she's about to run over Lawrence. I'm not sure I could do that. Respect.

[Cowgirl]

9 hours ago, biakbiak said:

I get that they were worried about two sons going to be Vietnam but I also feel that Peggy would be pissed about all the wasted milk!

Agreed.  Also, when Frank got milk all over the room (Was that another corner of the living room or one of the bedrooms?  I thought it was probably a bedroom.), I also thought, "Well, they're boys, and no one is going to clean that up properly.  Wait til the sour milk smell starts to take over! Phew!"

[bad things are bad]

12 hours ago, biakbiak said:

my dad dropped out of grad school in Michigan because he hated Ann Arbor so much

Geez, A2 was awesome in the 60s and 70s...what was to hate?

[StatisticalOutlier]

I don't like serious matters in my sitcoms, but they did a perfect job with this one, so I stand corrected.

I loved the montage of Eddie and Lawrence playing basketball.  And it reminded me of how well they have the characters interact, because I also loved how in another episode when Eddie got caught sneaking in late through the front door, which is right by his parents' room.  Then he and Lawrence were talking in their bedroom, and the window opens and Joey crawls in, saying, "Evening, gents."  And Lawrence says, "See?  Even Joey knows to come in through the window."  (And it's not even HIS window, but he knows it's okay.  I love this family.)

 

1 hour ago, Cowgirl said:

Also, when Frank got milk all over the room (Was that another corner of the living room or one of the bedrooms?  I thought it was probably a bedroom.), I also thought, "Well, they're boys, and no one is going to clean that up properly.  Wait til the sour milk smell starts to take over! Phew!"

I think it was the bedroom that the four little ones share.  Phew, indeed!

[ItCouldBeWorse]

12 hours ago, mojito said:

The show hasn't made it clear what Lawrence and Eddie planned to do after the summer of 1972 was over. Was Lawrence transferring to another school? If Eddie wasn't going to college, why wasn't he looking for full-time work? Or was he? (I still wonder why the hell his girlfriend is wearing a flip in the 1970s.)

Since Wendi was pushing Eddie to study for the SATs, I think they still have their senior year of HS to get through,  and then Eddie would have to join the military if he didn't get a college deferment.  I figure he was probably 18, instead of 17, if he was left back a year.

Lawrence should definitely have decided to enroll in school (instead of travelling,  as he discussed with his parents after dropping out if he didn't want to be drafted.)

11 hours ago, biakbiak said:

I get that they were worried about two sons going to be Vietnam but I also feel that Peggy would be pissed about all the wasted milk!

Yes, Peggy must have been really distracted not to notice that all the milk and all the off-brand Rice Krispies were disappearing. At first I thought that Frank would tattle on Timmy for wasting food. I also thought that Timmy would at least eat the cereal so as not to waste it.

 

1 hour ago, Cowgirl said:

Agreed.  Also, when Frank got milk all over the room (Was that another corner of the living room or one of the bedrooms?  I thought it was probably a bedroom.), I also thought, "Well, they're boys, and no one is going to clean that up properly.  Wait til the sour milk smell starts to take over! Phew!"

It was the room shared by Joey, Timmy, Will and Pat.

When Frank came into that room in the middle of the night to ask Timmy about the trick, all I could think about was where he was sleeping.  It can't be under the dining room table, or he would have known that it would was broken and "repaired" in the earlier episode.  I see why the writers don't want him sharing a room with Lawrence and Eddie, but they should at least show him sleeping on the couch, or something,  even though that would mean his parents would have to go to their room so that he could go to sleep.

Edited February 6, 2019 by ItCouldBeWorse

[ItCouldBeWorse]

We saw in the flashback that Mike's hair was as red as Eddie's is now.

I was also impressed that Eddie wanted to be a nurse, considering how that wasn't a popular male occupation then.

Edited February 7, 2019 by ItCouldBeWorse

[LGraves65]

I think Frank sleeps in Lawrence and Eddie's room -- in a bed that's behind the viewer when we're looking at the other two beds, like, behind the door or something. 

1 hour ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I see why the writers don't want him sharing a room with Lawrence and Eddie, but they should at least show him sleeping on the couch, or something,  even though that would mean his parents would have to go to their room so that he could go to sleep.

[LBS]

Also I really, really want to know how Timmy did that trick!!!

[hoodooznoodooz]

Pat asking what Eddie had won, when they pulled his birthday, was adorable. 

[janie jones]

I think Frank sleeps in Lawrence and Eddie's room -- in a bed that's behind the viewer when we're looking at the other two beds, like, behind the door or something.

I'm pretty sure there's been a 360 view of that room.  Usually we see the room as we face the bed, but I'm pretty sure in the scene mentioned above when Joey climbed in the window, the camera was between the two beds, facing the wall.  I don't recall seeing another bed there, not to mention I doubt Joey would sneak in Frank's window.

[Snow Apple]

Oh man. When Mike got sick and when remembering  Lawrence and Eddie as little boys. 

This show nailed it. Parents have to be strong on the outside so they don't panic their children, but they're freaking out and thinking the worst on the inside.

[MaryMitch]

I haven't heard that song "To Die Rag" in many years - it really took me back to that time. I wasn't draft age, but many of my friends had older brothers who got drafted. Remember on "The Wonder Years" how Winnie Cooper's brother was killed in Vietnam? 

Bittersweet episode - it rang so true to me.

Found the song on youtube:

[mojito]

Spoiler

That ended up being the last draft call date as in the last time they called people up, but there were still draft lotteries through 1975 it’s just no one got called up because they weren’t needed.

You probably had to research that. I lived it. 

[Chaos Theory]

This was a really good episode.  I think my favorite scene was Lawrence and Eddie playing basketball together and then Wendy comes back and its not Eddie whose mind has been changed about going to war but Lawrence's.

Mike being all proud of his two sons fighting for their country but then puking in the toilet was a nice touch.  

I liked that there was a B (Timmy's magic) story that had nothing to do with the Vietnam storyline.  

Edited February 7, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[biakbiak]

19 minutes ago, mojito said:

  Hide contents

That ended up being the last draft call date as in the last time they called people up, but there were still draft lotteries through 1975 it’s just no one got called up because they weren’t needed.

You probably had to research that. I lived it. 

I didn’t research it based on the show but what you stated was not factually correct even if you lived it.

[Bteam]

Since a few others have mentioned theirs- and they were all great- but my favorite line was “You did this on purpose.” And Lawrence was pouting like a kid - and they used young Lawrence and Eddie in the episode. I thought that was a nice touch.  

[sheetmoss]

Liked the episode a lot  -  they did a good job covering the mixed feelings  about  the war

Edited February 7, 2019 by sheetmoss

[Ryan Chamberlain]

11 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Pat asking what Eddie had won, when they pulled his birthday, was adorable. 

Pat is so cute. I pretty much love that kid's acting and lines. 

[Whimsy]

Let’s remember to be civil and that there is no back-and-forth arguing within threads. Thank you. 

[Bteam]

5 hours ago, Ryan Chamberlain said:

Pat is so cute. I pretty much love that kid's acting and lines. 

The panic in PAt’s voice when he yelled “mom’s run over Lawrence!” I actually thought it would be more serious (not that breaking your child’s foot is not serious). 

[xander874]

On 2/6/2019 at 12:52 AM, mojito said:

That would make Eddie 19.

I think they have firmly established him as 18 in previous episodes. Which means he probably was held back a year if he will be a senior this coming year. I have no idea how that works with the draft thing - I think we just have to assume some dating will be fudged to serve the story as the show progresses.

I do hope this incident has kick-started Lawrence to think of his future. I also really like Peggy and Wendi's friendship.

21 hours ago, Cowgirl said:

Wait til the sour milk smell starts to take over! Phew!"

Yes, I can't imagine a small room occupied by 4 boys smells all that good to begin with, but add that and wow!

[mojito]

Quote

I think they have firmly established him as 18 in previous episodes. Which means he probably was held back a year if he will be a senior this coming year. I have no idea how that works with the draft thing - I think we just have to assume some dating will be fudged to serve the story as the show progresses.

Yup. I thought he was 18, and for him to have been picked in the 1972 lottery, he would have turned 18 in 1971, which means he was probably left back. One of the kids commented on his less-than-stellar academic career. The 1972 lottery was the last meaningful one. The one in 1973 and the couple thereafter were a non-events as the draft had already ended and the accord/cease fire was signed in January of 1973. In that respect, this show is timed perfectly.

I kinda think the way they handled the subject matter was Emmy nomination-worthy for its balance of humor on a tough subject. 

[cleo]

This was a good episode but when Lawrence got drafted all I could think for the rest of the episode was- Thank God they will cut his hair. 

[geauxaway]

Little Pat going to win the war with karate chops.  And Peg’s response to him.  Golden!  Great episode, through and through.  

[Snow Apple]

I liked Peggy saying something like how she understood WW2 because you knew who the villain was, but doesn't know what's up with Vietnam.

[possibilities]

Did everyone KNOW the draft wasn't meaningful anymore, though? I think there was still the fear of being shipped out, even if it didn't turn out to actually happen. They didn't know it wouldn't happen.

[Chaos Theory]

Watching the episode again on Hulu I really like the scene where Pat (I think) crawled into bed with Mike and Peggy's bed scared about being called to war and Peg says that he is too young and by the time he is old enough there will be a whole new war.  The punch line is kind of a throw away line but I find it hillarous.  She said "I hope we are on the same side."  

Edited February 11, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[CountryGirl]

Nothing says love like your mom running over you to keep you from going to war.

You'll thank her later, Lawrence.

Dad Mike being proud of his sons but then running to throw up in the bathroom - spot on reaction.

And his remembering his eldest two as little boys just melted my heart.

[Cowgirl]

My favorite little exchange (of many!) in this episode was when Frank says about Timmy "That kid really gets my goat!" and Joey says something like, "Really? 'Cause I can help you with that.  Goat retrieval is, like, 80% of what I do."  

It was nice to see a Joey/Frank pairing in this episode.  Many of us have said we looked forward to different pairings and interactions and I think that will keep this show fresh.

[AnnaRose]

5 hours ago, Cowgirl said:

My favorite little exchange (of many!) in this episode was when Frank says about Timmy "That kid really gets my goat!" and Joey says something like, "Really? 'Cause I can help you with that.  Goat retrieval is, like, 80% of what I do."  

It was nice to see a Joey/Frank pairing in this episode.  Many of us have said we looked forward to different pairings and interactions and I think that will keep this show fresh.

Thanks, I loved his reply.  It was so perfectly Joey.

[Thumper]

I teared up a bit in this episode.  Scary time.

Frank cracked me up when he COULD NOT accept that he wasn't going to find out the secret!  (Right at the beginning, when he saw the magic trick.) His eyes sparked and his facial expression was so angry/frustrated!!!   lol   The actor did a great job.  

[Marly Holley]

On 2/9/2019 at 2:10 PM, cleo said:

This was a good episode but when Lawrence got drafted all I could think for the rest of the episode was- Thank God they will cut his hair. 

Might need to take this down...but your comment got me to thinking about this pic.  Lawrence without the hair.  Anyway - I noticed that his hair was WAY better in the first episode, but after that they have the WORST wig for that poor guy.  You'd think they'd put a bit more into it. 

[SmithW6079]

I thought this episode was fantastic, from start to finish. I loved the tension during the lottery and then when Eddie's number came up in the draft, followed by Lawrence receiving his letter that he had to report in eight days. I loved that Mike's "my country right or wrong" was counterbalanced when he ran to the bathroom to throw up at the thought his sons might be killed in combat.

The actors who play Mike and Lawrence and Eddie really sold it. Mike is so gruff -- loved his comment to Wendi that "you and I have talked enough today" -- but he loves his sons. That has come through in multiple episodes.

The basketball game that Eddie and Lawrence played instead of talking gave me the sense that it was the actors having fun with it for real, not just that they were supposed to portray it.

My heart broke a little when Pat climbed into bed with Peggy and Mike because he had nightmares about war, and wondering if he was going to have to fight in one. (Sadly, Pat, yes, chances are you will. The names may change, but America will be in one conflict or another for the next 40 years-plus.)

I think the B plot, with the magic trick, actually detracted from the episode.

I've watched the episode a few times, and I am impressed every time at how powerful it is. 

While I like Eddie, I feel that they've retconned his character a little. In the pilot, he came across more as a jock, ready to fight at a moment's notice, and while I appreciate that they've softened the character to make him the "gentle" one, I think they're going a little too far and making him simpleminded.

I wonder if switching this episode with the Valentine's Day one was a statement. Eddie and Lawrence (Lawrence especially, after his talk of going to Canada) decide that they will answer their country's call to service, unlike the individual who was speaking later that evening. Still, I wonder why Lawrence didn't think to register as a conscientious objector.

Really, I can't praise this episode highly enough.