S04.E10: The Children

[Dewey Decimate]

Holy CGI budget, Batman!

 

Even though I've read the books, I'm going to need to start selectively covering up the opening credits as I used to do with Lost. Seeing or not seeing certain names makes the action too predictable. Though the "Previously"s are also about as subtle as an iron mallet.

 

Cavalry formation north of the Wall was awesome. And Stannis and Davos' synchronized dismount was Big Pimpin'. Someone in the non-book thread described Davos as Stannis' hype man, which couldn't be more perfect.

 

As the Bran-centric bit began, I thought to myself, "as much as I felt for Bran in the books - poor kid's paralyzed within just a chapter or two - I just can't get too into him and his Partridge Family 'do. Though I do like Jojen, and Summer is always a treat." Then the Walkers appear and everything goes to hell. (Shout out to Ray H. - I love seeing how many people thought of that too.) Meera kicked ass, especially pushing her brother out of the way, and the skeleton-obliteration as they tried to enter the cave was friggin' awesome. I was shocked when they casually showed the skeleton getting stabby all over Jojen, but in a way, it made it feel even more realistically battle-like. (In contrast to the stop-the-world-and-melt-with-you moment of Jon and Ygritte last ep.)

 

Was sad that Arya didn't find Hot Pie's bread wolf. I hoped that she'd very practically ransack the panniers on her stolen horse and run across it, though I guess that would have given her more motivation to stay. And I will not believe the Hound is dead until I see a mushy or dismembered corpse. That he essentially fought to the maybe-death for Arya showed what a softie he was. After all, if he only wanted money, why not extort some out of Brienne and get a move on? He was totally digging his badass adoptive parent/mentor role.

 

Surprisingly, I found the Tyrion scenes bland in comparison to the rest. I think the week (or was it two?) off really made the flow suffer. Why did he mosey around the Hand's chamber while escaping? I almost think they should have had some grunting sex sounds within Tyrion's earshot (this is HBO, right?) so he'd have a reason to be curious and poke his head around the corner. Shae's death, don't have much of an opinion either way, but when Tyrion was astride her, I was completely taken out of it by the fact that her legs were not moving AT ALL. Woman's fighting for her life, and there's no kicking?? I understand the difficult logistics of body size, but that was nonsensical.

 

Tywin's last stand (or squat) was also kinda meh. While PD has been killing it for most of the season (I think his facial expressions during Oberyn's story were especially magnificent), here I didn't really feel the menace, disgust, anger, etc. And I cracked up every time Tywin made to stand up, only to sit back down. I mean, in a different "time" period, the attacker would show his or her seriousness by, say, cocking a gun, but Tyrion didn't appear to lower and re-raise the crossbow at any point, so Tywin's self-motivated sit-squat-sit-squat made me feel like he was at a Roman Catholic mass, sans kneeler.

 

And of course the dragons. The animal stuff gets me every time. Why do they have to be in the dark, dammit? And I assumed Dany would chain their legs; couldn't they just back out of the neck irons? Nonetheless, damn cry-worthy, and the CGI with humans and dragons interacting was excellent.

[areca]

I liked the final shot being Arya sailing off - my reaction was "finally, we're going to move on from having various characters wander around Westeros and get the plot moving".

 

Except Arya's life in Braavos is actually deadly dull during her training.  Well, it's not, but it won't be good TV I don't think.

 

I think this finale was the weakest by far, and the excisement of many of the crucial scenes and their nuances intolerable.  I cannot stand that they have made Tyrion 'good', because he's not and never has been.  The closest thing this show has ever had to good post-Ned, was Jon Snow.  I fear that what we saw tonight is the beginning of the end for GoT, I recognize the problem and have seen it before with these show runners (and others). 

Edited June 16, 2014 by areca

[Avaleigh]

I enjoyed it but Tywin's death didn't blow me away here like it did in the books. I'm trying to put my finger on what it was for me that kept it from being completely satisfying. I think book Tywin seemed less concerned and less wary of the situation than show Tywin did. Show Tywin seemed almost nervous and I thought one of the things that was great about the scene from the book is that Tywin still tries to treat Tyrion in the dismissive way he's always treated him only this time Tyrion is completely through with being treated that way ever again and it's just Tywin's bad luck that he never learned to be respectful to his son or take him seriously.

Shae's death was lame and anticlimactic for me. I was really hoping for some kind of conversation between the two of them to help give us an idea of her relationship with Tywin and the length of it, whether or not she's a spy, if she ever loved Tyrion, etc. I also rolled my eyes, laughed, and thought of benteen's prediction about crying Tyrion when Shae reached for the knife.

Loved the Tywin Cersei scene though. Her gleeful expression when she told him his legacy was a lie was a great moment IMO. To me she might as well have shot him with a crossbow. I mean she basically told him that he's a bad man and that she fears the idea of her son being raised by him and becoming like him. ETA: Charles Dance was great here. I honestly can't tell whether Tywin was deluded or not with that level of denial.

Show Cersei is doing everything book Jaime ever wanted her to do. In the books she's the more rational one when it comes to wanting to keep their relationship a secret while he wants to be open. I'm guessing he's going to take her at her word and when he wants to marry or be more open she's going to change her mind now that Tywin is out of the picture. I agree that it would be more interesting to see Jaime getting turned off at seeing what a shit ruler she is. It'll make a great moment if we could get a scene where he tells her that she reminds him of the Mad King when it comes to ruling.

So does this make Jojen paste more or less likely?

I didn't think the episode needed Lady Stoneheart.

Mance is a fucking boss.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Avaleigh

[cosmic1]

I am happy that Arya is finally moving forward.  I think that, with so many characters and storylines, we get to see some wandering aimlessly around until it is finally their turn to move forward.  That is what I like the least about the show. 

 

I liked the finale - many loose ends were tied up and I am looking forward to next season.  I hope that in the meantime, the Winds of Winter gets released.  I can dream.  LOL.

[kieyra]

Except Arya's life in Braavos is actually deadly dull during her training.  Well, it's not, but it won't be good TV I don't think.

 

I think this finale was the weakest by far, and the excisement of many of the crucial scenes and their nuances intolerable.  I cannot stand that they have made Tyrion 'good', because he's not and never has been.  The closest thing this show has ever had to good post-Ned, was Jon Snow.  I fear that what we saw tonight is the beginning of the end for GoT, I recognize the problem and have seen it before with these show runners (and others). 

 

'Good' like he just murdered two people when he could have simply escaped to safety instead? Or some other kind of good?

[Haleth]

Well done, show.  I thought they handled Tyrion killing Shae and Tywin very well.  Interesting that Varys is fleeing along with Tyrion.  I'll trust the show writers that the exclusion of Tysha and Moonboy during the brothers' farewell will not affect their motivations for what comes next.  I liked the deviation from the book of having Brienne and the Hound fight and Bri and Arya bonding over fighting boys.  ("Wait, Arya!  You forgot your bread!")  Glad they did keep Sandor's fate questionable.  I thought the Bran scenes were well done.  The fight with the skeletons was great.  Jojen dying not so much, but oh well.  Bloodraven didn't look nearly as scary as I pictured.  (No tree growing through his eye, etc.)  Stannis, ok.  My only criticism was the time wasted by showing Jon carrying Ygritte outside the Wall and burning her body.  That was time that could have been used to introduce Lady Stoneheart.  Ygritte?  Shmoopy Jon?  Don't care.

 

Regarding how long Shae was with Tywin.  She called him by name before she realized it was Tyrion in the room.  I thought it was strange that she'd address him with such familiarity rather than a formal "my Lord."  (A lot of people are saying she had no dialog.  Listen closely.)

 

So I guess the huge bruhaha about Lena Headey's stone heart instagram was all for naught.

 

I'm sorry we're losing Charles Dance.  

Edited June 16, 2014 by Haleth

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Nick's thoughts on the finale!

[Helena Dax]

I don't know,  it fell a bit flat. The scene where Tyrion kills Shae and Tywin wasn't as intense as it should have been. I did love the fight between the Hound and Brienne, especially because she won. I mean, defeating the Hound isn't an easy task so that makes Brienne super  awesome (more). And I also love the fact that Brienne and Arya saw each other, I think it was a "So I'm not the only one" moment. 

 

If Varys is going to be  travelling with Tyrion next season I'm going to be a very happy person.

[SomeJabroni]

 

I think I may be  the one person who hopes Lady Stoneheart never shows up.

 

 

 Nope, not the only one.  I disliked that storyline/character almost as much as I dreaded Tyrion's "where the whores go" monologues.  I'm still processing all of the events of last night, but so far:

 

THE GOOD

*Ciaran Hinds as Mance Rayder.  While I felt that Stannis' appearance at the NW was done a couple of episodes too late, I really enjoyed the scenes between Mance and Stannis (and Jon too, for that matter).  Full disclosure:  I've been in luuurve with CH since his days in "Rome."  But seriously, I thought that the dark fight from the penultimate episode would've played better as long scene about 3 episodes prior, as it happened in the book - with the burning of the stairs and all - and have the 2nd battle in the finale and *that's* where Stannis shows up.  But overall, I liked it, and I even kinda like holding off electing Jon Snow as commander until next season.  SOOOO  looking forward to Janos Slynt's head rolling.

 

*Arya and Brienne.  I almost put this under the "bad" because it's so far removed from the book, but I totally ship them as a caretaker/ward couple.  Though...if Dead!Cat is actually going to make an appearance, Brienne having met Arya and gotten the tea on Sansa puts a huge wrench in the Brienne/Dead!Cat storyline.  Eh, whatever.  I read somewhere that the lady playing Brienne is going to be in some new Star Wars(?) movie, so.... it may just be a moot point anyway.  Love Arya and the way she coldly stared down the Hound as he tried to goad her into giving him a quick death, then stole his money.  He taught her well, didn't he?  lol

 

*Tyrion killing Shae and Tywin.  While I agree to a certain point that the showrunners are trying to 'whitewash' Tyrion a little (or a lot, depending on your POV), I am totally TeamTyrion on this one.  IIRC, in the book, Shae's motivations vis a vis Tywin/Cersei aren't revealed either, so we don't know if she actually loved Tyrion (as she appeared to on the show) or was a pawn or agent of Tywin the whole time.  In any event, Tyrion believed she loved him and, whether she did or didn't, she totally betrayed him at that farce of a trial.  And Tywin - lawd, I'll miss his badassery - Tywin hated his own son, basically sent him to his death in Blackwater, then condemned him to actual death.  So, yeah, I can get behind Tyrion putting a couple of arrows in him.  It's almost a shame he didn't have the time to give him the "Reek" treatment.

 

 

THE BAD and THE UGLY

Basically everything having to do with the Lannisters right now.  Show!Cersei throwing her incest in her father's face, feigning love and affection for her children as opposed to the potential power they can bestow upon her, then telling Jamie about it.  The lack of a very crucial scene between Tyrion & Jamie regarding Tysha (though the softie in me wants those two crazy kids to make it after all).  That, combined with what I thought was a very lackluster couple of death scenes....well, I just thought the execution was rather underwhelming. 

 

I also thought the Arya/Brienne meeting was wrong, too.  Yes, I liked the actual scene, but only because I like those characters and feel like they 'belong' together.  But it, and the fight between Brienne & the Hound, was so far removed from anything in the books (and I'm not a super-purist about these kinds of things), that it really took me out of the show for a few minutes.

 

Jojen's death by zombie skeleton.  IIRC, he is presumed dead in the books, but I don't recall it happening like that and I really could've done without yet another zombie skeleton battle.  But, alas, winter is coming.

 

 

 

Overall, I've enjoyed this season more than the last, book-changing nitpicks aside.  I'm looking forward to Arya's adventures in Braavos, Cersei's machinations with the Small Council and Bank of Braavos and the shit about to befall her, and the stuff going down with Boltons, specifically the marriage of Ramsay and "Arya."  Haven't quite decided how I feel about Tyrion's upcoming adventure(s) or the lost Targaryen.  Definitely do not want to see Dead!Cat/Lady Stoneheart.  lol...I didn't care much for Catelyn when she was alive, so D&D are safe from the wrath of my keyboard if they decide to change that too.

 

Thoughts on Dany, et al, later.  Gotta get some work done today.  :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ottis]

They seriously overestimated the appeal of Arya if they thought watching her sail away from the main action was the best way to cap off what they claimed was the Best GOT Episode Ever! Very anticlimactic, even Tywin's death was kind of drab.

 

 

I also felt like the finale was so-so. There was nothing new for us to ponder, just characters sent in different directions than before. A few characters died. I had read the books so their deaths were no surprise, nor was anything about them. Though for some reason I have no recollection of a Lady Stoneheart.

 

Still love the show, and will miss it. And will have to reread these threads in a year to remember where we were when the long delay started!

[Hanahope]

I too am pretty surprised we didn’t get a Lady Stoneheart reveal.  I don’t recall even hearing anything about Freys hanging.  We really need something on that end.  Otherwise, so much time has gone by that LS is going to look as decomposed as those skeletons that fought Bran & Co.  I mean, we had time.  The show ended at 10:07, we still had 8 minutes!!!

 

I am still on the fence by Brienne knowing Arya is alive, since nobody knows she’s alive in the books.  That said, I do like that Brienne had no answer to the Hound’s question of where would Arya be safe.  I mean really, what did Brienne expect was going to happen to Arya, she’d be welcomed with open arms and friends in Kings Landing?  Where else did she expect to take Arya?  She needed to have a plan (though I suppose Brienne didn’t know that Lysa was dead).  While yes, I would have liked Arya to go with Brienne as this story is showing, I totally understand why Arya didn’t.  For all Arya knew, Brienne was on Jaime’s side and last Arya saw, Jaime was fighting her dad.  And glad they left the Hound’s “death” was left ambiguous, so we may yet see him next season, at least once.

 

Great fights in the north, both at the Tree and the Wall.  I loved the meaningful look between Melisandre and Jon and I will be looking forward to their interactions next season.  Jon sure loves the red-haired ladies. 

 

I was also surprised we didn’t get more dialogue out of Shae/Tyrion.  I thought there’d be something explaining her reasons for what she did, other than the obvious.  I guess we’re all supposed to believe that instead of Cersie, Shae was paid off by Tywin after all, so that’s why Tyrion didn’t believe Tywin that he would never let Tyrion die and that Tyrion was “his son.”  But more dialogue explaining that would have been nice.  Also missed the “Lannisters don’t shit gold after all” line.  Good ole Varys.  Oh darn, the bells are ringing.  Oh well, onto the ship and plan B.

 

And yeah, the scenes between Cersie/Tywin and Cersie/Jaime didn’t really make sense in terms of how the plot progressed in the books, so interested to see how they work that out next season.  Particularly Jaime’s disillusionment with Cersie.  If Tyrion isn’t going to tell Jaime about Cersie unfaithfulness, who else will, or will they simply have Jaime walk in on Cersei and someone (Lancel?).

Great visual of Bloodraven.  I think even the unsullied are going to figure out what the plan for Bran is.  Also great scenes with Dany.  Really had me tearing up, both with the burned child and chaining up the dragons.

[elzin]

I don't think this episode changes the odds on book Jojen paste.  We know he's not long for the world no matter what.  D&D might have killed him early for the drama and one fewer salary to pay next year. They might not have felt that Jojen paste was something they could shown on screen effectively (you know, cause it'd be too horrible, unlike all those bonus rapes we got this year). Since they've been making up so much stuff, I don't think this does anything other than confirm that Jojen is not important again.

 

There are so many things that bother me about this episode (while I did like many parts of it).  The thing that's bugging me this morning upon reflection was that I was not impressed with our first real glimpse of a Child of the Forest.  It looked too human. It looked like a cast member of A Midsummer's Night Dream.  It looked like the fairy from the movie Legend + Mario Brothers fireballs. 

[blixie]

I can't believe how FLAT the whole thing felt, considering what someone had rightfully described as ALL RISE in the potential offing.

 

The good for me was Brienne/Pod meeting Arya/Hound, and the brilliant fight that ensues, while still retaining Arya denying the Hound mercy, and can I just say I know they were going for battle  hardened Arya, but Maysie could not have looked more beautiful while silently scowling at the Hound? In that moment I saw Lyanna in her more than ever.

 

And if I can't have Coldhands IS Benjen Stark protecting Bran through his story, allowing Meera to go complete kick ass was worth it, as was the child of the forest and her fireballs. The skeleton effects and Blood Raven also rocked. 

 

But everything else I pretty much had an issue with. Stannis' rescue was as anti-climactic as I anticipated it would be in holding until 10, and then they still pent a shit ton of time at the wall doing nothing of real consequence, time that could have better gone to:

 

1. Jon's Lord Commander storyline

2. Jamie's confession about Tysha 

3. Lady Stoneheart reveal.

 

I didn't need to see all three things happen, but at least ONE of them should have. I also hated that Qyburn is saving the Mountain's life instead of reanimating a dead, headless corpse, that he wasn't audibly suffering. I continue to have no fucking idea what they are doing with Cersei, who not only doesn't get called out for screwing Lancel, the Kettleblacks, and Moon Boy, but who also is willing to reveal her incest to her dad, and blow off the IT to play house with  Jamie. Sure. Fine. Whatever.

 

The show continues to slavishly be all about the Lannister's and I can't say how much that pisses me off.

[matilda76]

I think the reason they didn't have Tyrion disabuse Jaime about his romantic notions of Cersei, NOW is because the writers are saving it for next season, and want it to be about Jaime finally figuring out for himself what his lover/sister truly is.  Perhaps by seeing how horribly she rules as Regent.  Frankly, that would be far more interesting than Jaime being all hurt that Cersei wasn't faithful to him.

 

And yeah, I know you can argue they're whitewashing Tyrion and his relationship with Jaime but I have to say, I prefer not to have all the show's main characters be completely horrible and unsympathetic people.  It's a depressing enough series-can we occasionally have some glints of light in the darkness like the two Lannister brothers however screwed up they are, also truly love one another?!?

ITA. Not only is it being set up for Jaime to figure it out for himself, but it will also surely come to light for Cersei that it was Jaime who set Tyrion free. That confrontation should be interesting whenever it happens. 

 

Thoughts on the finale overall? I liked it a lot, but thought it got pretty soapy in places. Thought Jon/Mance/Stannis and his army was done very well and I'm looking forward to more Mance next season. Finally, things at Castle Black will be a little more interesting. I thought Cersei telling Tywin about her and Jaime was very soapy and the way Headey played it, it makes Cersei more unlikeable than ever, even though she's supposed to be actually coming from a good place when she refuses to marry Loras because she doesn't want to leave her son. Lena Headey is certainly very good at oozing maliciousness and bitterness -- like any good villainess on Days of Our Lives or General Hospital!.

 

The fight between Brienne and Sandor was very well done and the acting was terrific. It was hard for me to watch, it was so brutal and raw. I thought Tyrion's killing of Shae was both self-defense AND vengeance. You could tell it was more than just kill or be killed for Tyrion. The Tywin death scene was almost everything I imagined it to be, and like most people here I'm very glad that we'll be spared the "wherever whores go" refrain next season. I also like that Tyrion and Jaime keep their bond intact and the change with Varys accompanying Tyrion -- the two actors have good chemistry and I always enjoy their scenes together. 

 

I hope Jaqen H'gar shows up again next season or at some point further along. Or more specifically, getting the same actor back who originally played him. I need more pretty on GoT!

Edited June 16, 2014 by matilda76

[gemmalogical]

 

I'm not the least bit sorry there was no Stoneheart. I hated Cat Stark and don't care to see her again in any form.  There are other ways to wipe out Freys.

Same here - as to both Cat and LS. I'm sure LS will pop up at some point though.

 

I thought I noticed something odd when Arya's ship was leaving port. As the camera tracks Arya moving to the prow of the ship it suddenly pans up to a jutting cliff. It's a strange shot and I had a fleeting impression that there was a cloaked figure standing on the cliff. I remember thinking that the camera would zoom in for a glimpse of LS. I haven't re-watched yet; my eyes were probably playing tricks on me.

 

Tywin/Tyrion did not have the resonance it should have. Still processing why I think not.

[OakGoblinFly]

Blah!

 

I found this season finale very bland and huge let down.  I think that the show runner tried to cram too much into the episode and as such nothing hit the proper emotional tone.  

 

While the overhead shot of Stannis' army riding into the woods was gorgeous and there were some nice moments between Mance and Jon (to me) it felt like Stannis' arrival just in the nick of time was an after thought; makes me upset that he didn't get his proper "big hero moment" - I'd rather have him arrive last week (comparisons to Blackwater be damned).  I really didn't need a shot of emo-Jon burning Ygritte's body .... I don't like emo-Jon, I want bad-ass commanding Jon back.

 

Dany's imprisonment of her dragons also fell very flat for me - I don't know if was the acting, the direction or what, I felt extremely disconnected to Dany and the dragons.

 

I did, however, tear up when Jojen died and that quite surprised me.  The shot of the weirwood was beautiful and Bloodraven was perfect.

 

The show made a huge misstep with Tyrion's story line by NOT including the conversation with Jamie about Tysha as that's the catalyst for Tyrion going down the hall to confront/kill his father rather than down the hall to meet Varys. 

 

While the fight between Brienne and The Hound was well executed, I don't see the point.  I thought the entire sequence, including Arya's conversation with The Hound went on too long and it began to feel draggy.

 

Not sure how I feel about the lack of Lady Stoneheart .... I can understand why they want to hold off on that reveal until next season.

 

On the whole I wasn't overly pleased with the season - sure there were terrific moments, just not enough of them to make me want to watch the entire season while waiting for season five.

[matilda76]

I'd actually be very curious to know.  I remember that during the LOST years, credits would always appear no matter what, supposedly due to whatever laws you have in the U.S. regarding credits needing to appear at the beginning of a show, and reading them was like reading spoilers.  ("OMG, Frank is not dead!!"  Frank appears.  "Welp, I kinda had a clue, didn't I?")  Have the laws changed since then?  It would be neat to know.

Matthew Weiner liked this post

Not to distract from the GoT discussion, but I'm a Mad Men fan too and I haven't heard this angle -- Weiner changing things to suit the audience. In regard to which character? Don?? PM me if possible (I haven't explored all the Previously functions thus far, so I don't know if we actually have that option...)

[Dev F]

I don't think this episode changes the odds on book Jojen paste.  We know he's not long for the world no matter what.  D&D might have killed him early for the drama and one fewer salary to pay next year. They might not have felt that Jojen paste was something they could shown on screen effectively (you know, cause it'd be too horrible, unlike all those bonus rapes we got this year). Since they've been making up so much stuff, I don't think this does anything other than confirm that Jojen is not important again. 

 

He ends up seeming fairly superfluous in the last book, even, so I can see why it makes sense to trim him out. His role has always been to be the guy leading Bran toward his mystical destiny, and now that Bloodraven is around to serve as an actual mentor, Jojen becomes rather redundant.

 

But that does make me wonder: When the Reeds first appeared, the series omitted the stuff in the book about Bran's crush on Meera, presumably because he was farther along in his acceptance of his powers than he was in the book, so you didn't need that attraction to explain why he was drawn to the Reeds; you could just have him be drawn to Jojen because of their shared mystical abilities. But now that we've got an ancient magical tree man weighting Bran's story so heavily toward the mystical side of things, I wonder if the series will start to play up the neglected Bran/Meera connection to offer some counterbalance, a way to keep Bran anchored in the ordinary human world. It could work now in a way it wouldn't have earlier. (Though it might seem to come out of nowhere after he's expressed little to no interest in her up to this point, particularly since the intensity of the Bran/Jojen connection makes show-Bran read a little bit gay to me.)

[blixie]

 

Tywin/Tyrion did not have the resonance it should have. Still processing why I think not.

 

I mean for me watching with an unsullied she had no idea WTF Tyrion was doing or why. They just have him casually wander into Tywin's quarters without letting you know it's Tywin's quarters beyond the detail of the hand necklace. Shae's line about her lion/Tywin are muffled to the point where even people who are book walkers didn't notice she said it, and then after killing Shae, Tyrion walks around SO MORE. AGAIN. So not only was it difficult to parse what was happening, there was also the lack of that big motivating why w/the Tysha reveal. If they wanted to leave that off the table at least have Tyrion bitterly bitching to Jamie about their Father, and continuing to mutter to himself.

I was glad they had Tywin tell Tyrion, he wasn't actually going to have him killed, I always thought Tywin did get that Tyrion was the best of his children, the smartest and the most worthy of the Lannister legacy, but he was so fundamentally arrogant he thought you could endlessly screw with people and not pay any price.

[Haleth]

I had to laugh at a couple posts in the non-reader thread where people are doubting the Hound dies, saying they'll believe it when they see the body.  Considering we did see Cat's body, death does not mean the character is gone from the story.

[Alapaki]

I'll trust the show writers that the exclusion of Tysha and Moonboy during the brothers' farewell will not affect their motivations for what comes next.

 

 

I thought the finale was very enjoyable.  However, given the juxtaposition between the Cersei/Tywin scene, the Jaime/Cersei scene, and Tyrion's escape, without any reference to Tysha, I really wonder what the folks who haven't read the books are supposed to assume in terms of motivations.  Frankly, they're going so off-book with Jamie/Cersei, I wonder what D&D want us to assume.

 

Why did Tyrion go up to confront Tywin in the first place?  About why he actually sentenced his own son to death?  If that's so, what was Tyrion's end-game that gets him out of the Red Keep alive unless he would've killed Tywin?  I'm not sure they sold that as sufficient motivation for Tyrion killing Tywin, especially because we'd already been shown Tywin more than willing to let Tyrion live and "take the Black" in exchange for Jaime returning to Casterly Rock.

 

Also, I think we're supposed to believe that it was Tywin's shacking up with Shae that drove Tyrion to murder Tywin.  That would presumably be sufficient motivation for an "act of passion" impulsive killing of Tywin.  But that was something that Tyrion obviously didn't expect when he decided to confront Tywin.

 

Given Jaime's reaction when Cersei told him Tywin now knew about their relationship (although I find it hard to believe he didn't know before, frankly), it almost seemed to leave open the possibility that Jaime's wanted/hoped that Tyrion would kill Tywin on the way out.

 

It's tough to see it with new-eyes when I know how it went down in the books.  I'm curious how that sequence played out to completely un-spoiled viewers.

I was glad they had Tywin tell Tyrion, he wasn't actually going to have him killed, I always thought Tywin did get that Tyrion was the best of his children, the smartest and the most worthy of the Lannister legacy,

 

 

And just to follow-up (this quote was posted while I was typing).  I think that fact (and the earlier scene where Tywin was willing to free Tyrion) go against the sense that the show is presenting "Saint Tyrion".  Given what a great actor Charles Dance is, and the job he did with Tywin, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a backlash against Tyrion for killing Tywin.

[Eozostrodon]

I liked the ending, though I was disappointed not to have Lady SH, but friends I was watching with who aren't book readers were a bit confused - they thought the captain changed his mind and decided to drop her off at the Wall as she originally requested when she showed him the 'magic coin.' Not sure if it was that clear to casual viewers where she was going and why.

 

Isn't it possible to waive your contractual right to appear in the opening credits, probably in return for an extra fee of some kind?

 

It depends entirely on what wording for the contract the actress and her agent agree on. But legally there's absolutely no reason why not, if they agree to sign off on it.

[Haleth]

I was glad they had Tywin tell Tyrion, he wasn't actually going to have him killed, I always thought Tywin did get that Tyrion was the best of his children, the smartest and the most worthy of the Lannister legacy,

 

Do you really think Tywin was sincere?  That he was going to call off the execution?  I don't for a minute.

[matilda76]

I was glad they had Tywin tell Tyrion, he wasn't actually going to have him killed, I always thought Tywin did get that Tyrion was the best of his children, the smartest and the most worthy of the Lannister legacy, but he was so fundamentally arrogant he thought you could endlessly screw with people and not pay any price.

But to me it seemed that he just told Tyrion that to buy himself some time, calm Tyrion down. I think Tywin had every intention of executing Tyrion the next day. It was very Fish Called Wanda: "you don't have the guts! . . . okay, okay, you have the guts!" 

 

I sort of see your point, as I think Tywin certainly knew that Tyrion was very intelligent, certainly moreso than Cersei, anyway. But not for a minute did he ever think him worthy. He is so angry at Tyrion just for being born that he is never a viable option for Tywin as far as the family legacy is concerned. Tywin was always just concerned with using Tyrion as a pawn (demoting him from Hand to Master of Coin, forcing him to marry Sansa, etc.). Let Tyrion defy him or become a nuisance in any way, and Tywin needs no excuse to try to destroy him completely.

[AzureOwl]

I haven't read the books so I don't understand the reference, would you mind explaining?

 

The Three-Eyed-Raven, the guy in the roots of the weirwood tree that Bran and company meet is someone book readers know by the nickname Bloodraven. I nearly jumped thru the roof when he said his catchphrase “A thousand eyes and one”.

 

The fact that the Three-Eyed-Raven and Bloodraven are one and the same was one of the big reveals of the 5th book, A Dance with Dragons. On the show, Bran gets to the cave much faster. As for the details of who Bloodraven is…

his birth name is Brynden Rivers, and he’s the bastard son of King Aegon IV Targaryen, aka Aegon the Unworthy. He was nicknamed Bloodraven because of a red colored birthmark on his face that looked like a raven. Aegon IV was a horrible king, as his moniker might tell you, and on his deathbed, 114 years before the events of the series, he legitimized all his many bastard children, even putting those with highborn mothers on the line succession. One of them, Daemon Blackfyre, rebelled and tried to usurp the Throne from his legitimate elder brother, King Daeron II. The First Blackfyre Rebellion was one of the biggest civil wars in the history of Westeros and Bloodraven sided with the rightful king, Daeron the Good. Years later, he became Master of Whisperers and then was Hand of the King to Daeron’s successor Aerys I. When Maekar I became king he put Bloodraven in the dungeons because he never liked him but he eventually got out and went to the Wall along with Maester Aemon and took the oath of the Nightswatch. He became Lord Commander eventually. All his life Bloodraven was rumored to be a sorcerer, and this was later confirmed.

Edited June 16, 2014 by AzureOwl

[jcin617]

They just have him casually wander into Tywin's quarters without letting you know it's Tywin's quarters beyond the detail of the hand necklace

 

They did visually;  the room Tyrion first entered was the same room where Tywin and Cersei had their conversation earlier in the episode;  there was a metal lion decoration in the room shown in both scenes that the camera made a point of panning past as Tyrion entered.

Edited June 16, 2014 by jcin617

[blixie]

 

Do you really think Tywin was sincere?  That he was going to call off the execution?  I don't for a minute.

 

I do. I simply don't think Tywin thought for one second his life was in danger from Tyrion, thus there was no reason to lie. He never wanted Tyrion found Guilty, that was Cersei, and Tyrion fucked up the plan by doing the trial by combat. Tywin loves nothing so much as washing his hands of something (Aerys, The Mountain/Elia, Cersei/Jamie's incest, Red Wedding), and sending Tyrion to the Wall does exactly that. If he presides over his own son's execution, especially when he probably knows he had nothing to do with Joff's death, would be something he could never rationalize to himself or the realm. Tywin only wants to own victories, executing your son and making sure it's written in history he killed the King is not the kind of the thing he wants on the Lannisters books.

 

I mean it doesn't actually matter, because Tywin deserves to die on the shitter regardless.

 

 

there was a metal lion decoration in the room shown in both scenes that the camera made a point of panning past as Tyrion entered.

 

Yes, I acknowledged there was a visual cue, my point was that the cue was not CLEAR enough to casual viewers no more than the Olenna taking the jewel from Sansa's necklace was in the PW.

Edited June 16, 2014 by blixie

[Catherinewriter]

"I have always hated how most characters see the dragons as WMDs and not as frakking awesome creations."

 

Jean Sheridan: Word!!!!
 

[mac123x]

Shae's line about her lion/Tywin are muffled to the point where even people who are book walkers didn't notice she said it, and then after killing Shae,

 

I completely misseed it the first time.  Someone on here noted it, so on rewatch I turned the volume WAY up and still only got incomprehensible sleepy muttering.  Maybe it was more explicit in the closed-captioning.

 

Incidentally, it was pretty easy to figure out he was in Tywin's room.  The camera lingered on a giant lion icon for a few seconds, then had an unmotivated shot of the Hand-of-the-King badge.  Both of those shots were so unsubtle it took me out of the scene.

 

There was quite a bit of shoddy camera work to be honest.  The Jon / Mance conversation scene was over the shoulder shot / reverse-shot dialog, but half the time Mance's face was obscured by Kit Harrington's poofy hair.  It was really distracting. 

 

Stannis's army charging into the forest screamed "This is CGI!", plus it looked really hazardous. Hundreds of horses galloping into a stand of trees at 25-30 mph = hundreds of horses tripping on roots, slipping on snow/fallen leaves, impaling themselves or their riders on lowhanging branches, etc.

[kieyra]

I wondered earlier in the thread if non-book-readers would 'get' that Tyrion went to his father's room (and thus found Shae there). My coworker who is not a book reader not only didn't get how & where Tyrion ended up, he also missed the cue that Tyrion chose to go there. Meaning, he didn't realize that Tyrion specifically left the path of safety/escape and detoured to his father's quarters. He thought whoever had planned his escape specifically routed him that way.

 

So yeah, I think they...under-directed the entire sequence. 

Edited June 16, 2014 by kieyra

[mac123x]

Spotted someone in the Unsullied thread asking about Dany's titles:

 

"Queen of the Andals and Rhoynar and First Men.".  Is this the first mention of the Rhoynar?  I only remember Robert, Joffrey and Tommen being referred to as "King of the Andals and First Men".  Name-dropping for Season 5 since Tyrion sails down the Rhoyne and the people of Dorne have Rhoynish ancestors?

[Avaleigh]

I don't think show Tywin was going to let Tyrion live. Maybe it was possible prior to the crossbow incident but in that moment I thought he was trying to tell Tyrion what he wanted to hear. He told Tyrion that he'd let him live, he said they could talk about it, he calls him his son, etc. Once he gets shot he's back to telling Tyrion how he really feels--that Tyrion is no son of his.

I also didn't like that Varys had nothing to do with helping give Tyrion directions to the secret entrance to the TotH.

I agree that it's odd that Tywin acted so stunned when he had the truth thrown in his face since he knew the incest was true in the scene with Jaime where he talks about Jaime fathering children with the last name of Lannister. I also feel like Tywin would have been inclined to call her bluff. (I do think she was ultimately bluffing even if she didn't exactly see it that way in that moment. ) I can imagine him describing a life on the run even if they did have gold. Jaime can't defend them in the same way he used to, Tommen's life would still be in danger, they don't exactly blend in, I'm not even sure if Tommen could inherit Casterly Rock pure Lannister or not since he'd also be a bastard. (The main reason I'm unsure is because in the books when Jaime is saying that he and Cersei should marry and she's objecting, Jaime asks Cersei why inheriting the Rock wouldn't be enough for Tommen rather than having him sit the IT.)

Edited June 16, 2014 by Avaleigh

[coolbreeze]

Spotted someone in the Unsullied thread asking about Dany's titles:

 

"Queen of the Andals and Rhoynar and First Men.".  Is this the first mention of the Rhoynar?  I only remember Robert, Joffrey and Tommen being referred to as "King of the Andals and First Men".  Name-dropping for Season 5 since Tyrion sails down the Rhoyne and the people of Dorne have Rhoynish ancestors?

 

I noticed that too, and I think it is either the first mention or the first mention in a long time. 

[KatWay]

I'll miss Charles Dance.

 

Also, the lighting or make-up for the women has never been better. Arya and Shae both looked very pretty this episode IMO (not that they're, like, fugly wallflowers otherwise, but I thought they were more striking than usual). 

 

Jojen is dead then? Guess that means he won't be long for this world in the books either.

 

Rhaegal: Hey why are WE locked up? We didn't kill any kids!

Viserion: Fucking Drogon.

[Shanna]

 

Alas. I know book purists are going to be pissed at how Tyrion and Jaime parted ways, how Jaime and Cersei are still into each other, and how "whitewashed" Tyrion is.

I didn't think he was whitewashed, except with Shae a bit, but I was very disappointed they made it all about Shae and not Tysha. And the Jaime confrontation was completely left out. There were important repercussions there, and although I'll be happy not to have Tyrion spend the rest of the time plotting against Jaime and being mad about it, I did want him to know about Tysha and reflect on it.

 

Everything else I loved. I love Arya so Arya goes to Bravos was a pretty great ending for me. I loved the Children of the Forest and the mummy fight. Loved everything at the wall, loved the Brienne/Hound fight (although it went a bit long).

 

The only thing that let me down was KL. Even the Tywin killing was pretty unexciting. I just wanted to hear 'whereever whores go' is that really too much to ask, show? Does this mean we are never going to run into Tysha later on, because I keep thinking we will in the books.

[kcbuckeye2]

 

Someone in the non-book thread described Davos as Stannis' hype man, which couldn't be more perfect.

 

While I can see this description, that would make Davos the Flavor Flav to Stannis' Chuck D.  Would that essentially leave Mellisandre to be Terminator X?

[patchwork]

While I knew he was in Tywin's room I don't know why he was there without the blind rage Jaime's information about Tysha threw him into. It's fine if the show doesn't want to do the Tysha plot point but there needed to be some sort of motivation for Tyrion to go to the Tower of the Hand in the first place.

I could buy Cersei potentially ruining her escape to get revenge on the man who condemned her to death/Tywin for being Tywin but not Tyrion  

[Wilowy]

Rhaegal: Hey why are WE locked up? We didn't kill any kids!

Viserion: Fucking Drogon.

 

Hee!

I'm pissed Jojen is dead, if he in fact is. Kid's got some unearthly shit goin' on. Or did. Seriously though, he's one of my favorite tertiaries. 

[Jamoche]

Except Arya's life in Braavos is actually deadly dull during her training.  Well, it's not, but it won't be good TV I don't think.

I've gathered that the dullness is because it was supposed to happen during the 5-year skip and since now he's actually writing those 5 years, there's a lot of filler. Since TV only has a limited amount of time to give her, hopefully they'll make good use of it.

[Avaleigh]

Rhaegal: Hey why are WE locked up? We didn't kill any kids!

Viserion: Fucking Drogon.

Rhaegal: What's worse is he's still mother's fucking favorite.

[Mr. Simpatico]

I too am pretty surprised we didn’t get a Lady Stoneheart reveal.  I don’t recall even hearing anything about Freys hanging.  We really need something on that end.

 

This is a good point. D&D seem to be making the Freys (who are collectively loathed more than any other family in the books) as Ser Dontos for some reason. Gone for seasons at a time without any warning only to come back into the story randomly. I don't think any Frey even appeared at all this season (nor did the Blackfish). It's not just Lady Stoneheart its that we've seen weeks/months go by in this season Westeros time without the Red Wedding and its aftermath having ramifications for the characters or politics of Kings' Landing. In the books all the smallfolk, as well as the members of the Faith are talking about the RW and believing the Freys should pay. I don't even remember if we had the Brotherhood's activities against the Freys mentioned (we certainly did not see any of them).

 

The RW proved to be a major miscalculation on Tywin's part. Short-term gain but long-term disaaster for the Freys (more of whom die post-RW than before it), Boltons and Lannisters. Yet the show doesn't even hint at such an outcome.

[matilda76]

While I knew he was in Tywin's room I don't know why he was there without the blind rage Jaime's information about Tysha threw him into. It's fine if the show doesn't want to do the Tysha plot point but there needed to be some sort of motivation for Tyrion to go to the Tower of the Hand in the first place.

I could buy Cersei potentially ruining her escape to get revenge on the man who condemned her to death/Tywin for being Tywin but not Tyrion  

I think his motivation is quite well established during his trial scenes, especially just prior to him demanding trial by combat. I do agree, for cinematic value, that there should've been a bit more dialogue between Jaime and Tyrion before he leaves Tyrion at the foot of the secret stairs, even if it didn't strictly follow the book. But as viewers we can remember Tywin and Tyrion's exchanges this season and in prior seasons and also the fact that Tyrion has had a LOT of time to brood over the matter in his cell.

This is a good point. D&D seem to be making the Freys (who are collectively loathed more than any other family in the books) as Ser Dontos for some reason. Gone for seasons at a time without any warning only to come back into the story randomly. I don't think any Frey even appeared at all this season (nor did the Blackfish). It's not just Lady Stoneheart its that we've seen weeks/months go by in this season Westeros time without the Red Wedding and its aftermath having ramifications for the characters or politics of Kings' Landing. In the books all the smallfolk, as well as the members of the Faith are talking about the RW and believing the Freys should pay. I don't even remember if we had the Brotherhood's activities against the Freys mentioned (we certainly did not see any of them).

 

The RW proved to be a major miscalculation on Tywin's part. Short-term gain but long-term disaaster for the Freys (more of whom die post-RW than before it), Boltons and Lannisters. Yet the show doesn't even hint at such an outcome.

I'm assuming the only reason is costs, but this is one show that would definitely benefit from a 12-episode season rather than just 10. Aren't other hour-long HBO series usually 12 episodes (True Blood, Six Feet Under? I'll have to look them up)?  Edit: Looked them up and the answer is yes, they did have longer seasons -- TB gets 12 episodes, SFU got 13, and Big Love got 12 -- although they're all much lower budget than GoT. But even Rome, which was canceled not because it was unpopular, but because it was too expensive, got a 12-episode first season. 

Edited June 16, 2014 by matilda76

[Pete Martell]

The scene that really has stayed with me from the finale was Dany chaining up Viserion and Rhaegal, one of them nuzzling near her for the food, before they realized what she was doing and cried out as she left.

 

As much as I love Dany's relationships with characters like Jorah and Missandei, I had almost forgotten how vital her relationship with her "babies" is. Her realizing that funtime is over, it's time to make tough choices...the whole thing gutted me. Emilia Clarke gave some of her best work in years. I'm not sure how she has more chemistry with CGI dragons than any Daario, but she does. 

 

As lackluster as some of her story has been this season, they've done a better job than I'd expected of showing just how difficult it is to lead and just how much Dany is in over her head. I saw a comment saying that the show was supporting slavery, by having the old man talk to her about how difficult his life had become once he was freed. To me that just shows how desperately needed some of the nuanced material of a few Meereen scenes this season was. What is "freedom" and "liberation" when you are nothing and become less than nothing?

 

Watching the Inside the Episode commentary, D&D spoke about how Tyrion and Shae had destroyed each other, and Tyrion calling Shae a whore had led her to actually become one, with Tywin. That's a fascinating concept, but little to none of this was shown onscreen. Instead she was just a plot point, and not a very good one. My problem with these scenes wasn't so much that there was no Tysha, as I don't care about manpain over a woman who was raped by 50 men, but that the whole sequence seemed oddly lackluster. 

 

I've seen some fan debate that the show did this to Shae, and kept other, positive portrayals of sex workers in the books, off the show, to send a message about sex workers. I hope that is not the case.

 

Cersei and Qyburn were one of my highlights. I hate the term "Brotp," but I'm going to use it for them just for the hell of it. I love seeing Cersei strolling down this dark path. 

 

Bran's story is so half-hearted, which is too bad, as I think most of the actors are doing a wonderful job. I hope they can tweak this next season so it won't look as much like a Doctor Who video only release from 1997.

[Alapaki]

Meaning, he didn't realize that Tyrion specifically left the path of safety/escape and detoured to his father's quarters. He thought whoever had planned his escape specifically routed him that way.

 

 

I was thinking the same thing (about what non-readers might think).  They didn't lay the groundwork about Tyrion discovering the various secret passageways in the Red Keep.  

 

FWIW, I'm not convinced that Tywin would've allowed Tyrion's execution to happen.  I think he's smart enough to want a Plan B for the bloodline in the event that didn't  (or wouldn't) give him an heir.  But once Tyrion held a crossbow to him (in the shitter, no less), I wouldn't be surprised if he was just trying to talk himself to safety and them would have had Tyrion killed.

 

As far as the Lady Stoneheart reveal, it seems like there was a thread running through the entire episode of parent/child relationships (which, from the episode title, "duh").  But, when you consider them, the only one that didn't have a negative outcome or spin was Jon Snow/Ned Stark.  We saw the respect that Stannis had for Ned, and the way it reflected positively on Jon.  So while all of the other parent/child relationships were shattering (and I'd include The Hound as a father-figure with Arya here), Jon/Ned was the one relationship that seemed to solidify.

 

I'm not sure how they'd fit Lady Stoneheart into that concept, unless they portrayed Brienne as her pseudo-daughter whom she turns on.  But that wouldn't be possible without running a lot more of that storyline than they're probably comfortable doing.

 

In fact, the "theme" for the episode might also be why we got the Roose/Ramsey seen a few weeks back.  Because, while that's a "positive" father/son relationship . . . ewwww.

[Shanna]

 

While I knew he was in Tywin's room I don't know why he was there without the blind rage Jaime's information about Tysha threw him into.

Exactly!!! Otherwise what the hell was Tyrion doing? Why would he go to Tywin's room. Just to gripe at him about the trial? He's already done that. I just thought that removing that made the whole thing make no sense. And I don't care if Tywin calls Shae a whore because she was a whore Tyrion called her a whore too. I can't see him killing his father for that. Tysha, on the other hand, was NOT a whore and because of the circumstances I completely understood Tyrion killing Tywin over that comment (much as people see to have hated Tyrion musing on where whores go, I thought his killing Tywin after Tywin's saying that made so much sense. Because god was Tywin a dick). So I don't mind editing on the show, but they need to make sure the characters still have a reason to do the things they do, other than 'it happened in the books and it was awesome'. It was awesome in the books because it made sense! Here it didn't. So disappointing.

 

Rhaegal: Hey why are WE locked up? We didn't kill any kids!

Viserion: Fucking Drogon.

LOL! Drogon ruins everything. Those dragons were adorable. It was so sad that you had to chain them up, but shit, they were already killing random sheep. Is there some reason Dany didn't think she needed to fix that or that it might get worse? She needed to watch 'How to Train Your Dragon'.  Maybe she should have crate trained them as babies and got them used to regular feedings.

[Maximum Taco]

Spotted someone in the Unsullied thread asking about Dany's titles:

 

"Queen of the Andals and Rhoynar and First Men.".  Is this the first mention of the Rhoynar?  I only remember Robert, Joffrey and Tommen being referred to as "King of the Andals and First Men".  Name-dropping for Season 5 since Tyrion sails down the Rhoyne and the people of Dorne have Rhoynish ancestors?

 

It's the first mention I believe. Before all of them were King/Queen of the Andals and the First Men. Even in 4E06 when Dany's holding court she's the Queen of the Andals and the First Men with no mention of the Rhoynar. 

 

I think it may have just been a slip up, some writer put it in all her titles as they are in the books maybe. If it wasn't a mistake it's a stupid decision to start including it now, it makes it seem as if the title just came out of nowhere. They're just adding more confusion for the sake of confusion.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Hecate7]

.

And if, as someone above suggested, Tysha shows up next season to clue Tyrion in, I will shoot my TV if her focus is on how bad and mean Jaime was for lying while pitying poor Tyrion for having to participate in his non-whore wife's gang rape.  Peter Dinklage is more than capable of showing the darker, self-centered side of Tyrion who could listen to Tysha spitting venom at him and latch onto only the part about HE was betrayed by his brother.

 

Unless Tysha was looking all along to excuse Tyrion because she loved him, really loved him, and so would not believe he was doing this thing to her. This doesn't change the horror of what happened to her, but I could easily believe that she would have mixed feelings of anger, pity, love, and hate, for Tyrion, especially after having such a long time to think about it. I'm really not expecting her to spit venom. She is from a different world.

 

Tyrion's anger towards Jaime is the result of wanting justice for Tysha, and being unable to fathom how to get it, unless it's to deprive himself of Jaime, and to punish Jaime for his role in letting it happen. Punishing himself for his own role in it is really, really getting old in the books, and I frankly hope they don't go there, because it's so gross and so counterproductive.

[benteen]

I was disappointed over the idea of Qyburn "saving" the Mountain.  As much as a bummer as Oberyn's death was, I was happy that he had ensured that even after death, he had made the Mountain pay for what he did to Elia but giving him a slow and agonizing death.  We didn't get that here but then again, the show did a bad job building the Mountain character by having him disappear and casting the role three separate times.

 

It's too bad Brienne didn't show Arya the bread.  That MIGHT have helped although when all of that was going on, who the hell is going to remember bread.  It would have been funny though if she though if she had it and found out that Pod ate it.  Another reason to rail against him!

 

Although I can understand Arya not giving Brienne the benefit of the doubt.  Not just over the Lannister stuff but I think she's sick and tired of having others control her life.  Yoren, the Lannisters, the Brotherhood, the Hound...she may be young but she's experienced enough tragedy for a lifetime and wants her independence. 

[CrashTextDummie]

I wasn't bothered by the exclusion of Tysha. I thought Tyrion had plenty of motivation in wanting to settle the score with his father. The only mystery is why he didn't visit his sister as well.

 

Bran has really good season finales and nothing inbetween. I loved the shot of him and his companions stepping beyond the wall last season, it held so much promise of adventure. I equally loved the shot of them arriving at the weirwood. It's just too bad that the show (and also mostly the book) skipped all the intervening adventure. I thought at the time that it was economically sound to have his storyline cross paths with Jon's at the NW deserter camp, but it ultimately served preciously little purpose to either and the time would have been better spent having Bran et all scale some mountainside and having a character building moment or two. Or something.

 

Brienne vs. Mountain was a work of (ugly) beauty and I've never been more impressed with Maisy's acting than I was here. It's all too easy to underplay "emotionally dead" but Arya REALLY worked for me this episode.

 

As good as this show's casting has been across the board, CH as Mance has to be in the top 5. The guy was in just a handful of scenes (and only one this season) and yet he's created such a fully realized and commanding character. Loved his interaction with Stephen Dillane, who I think is vastly underrated. I know Stannis is supposed to be uncharismatic and dull, but I can't help but be entertained whenever SD is on the screen. I particularly love his line delivery. And I'm greatly looking forward to more Stannis at the Wall next season.

[benteen]

I did notice a number of the reviewers felt that Tyrion murdered Shae.  That they didn't view it as self-defense.