The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[Lugal]

On 5/9/2019 at 10:15 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I honestly think that if we are going to get a queer character it is going to be Loki or some character introduced in his show.  I don't see Disney creating a queer human from earth. There is a logic to having an alien character be pansexual.  They have already established that Loki can shapeshift, so his sexuality being fluid is not coming out of left field.

I remember hearing that in the comics they made Loki pansexual and genderqueer.  I was unsure how it would work, but then I remembered Loki in the original Norse mythology and it fit.  Although I didn't think Loki in the movies shapeshifted, but just played with illusions.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Lugal
clarifying movies vs. mythology

[Bruinsfan]

Maybe, but his illusions are convincing enough that Thor thought he was picking up a snake before it turned into Loki and stabbed him...

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Matt K said:

So I saw an article (can't remember where) about an interview with the Russos (or maybe Feige) hinting at one of the current heroes opening coming out a gay.  It also sounded like the revel would be soonish (so probably not in one of the 2022 movies).    

I haven’t seen the article but could they be talking about Valkyrie? It was cut out of Ragnarok but Tessa Thompson has made it clear that Valkyrie is bisexual. 

[Danny Franks]

31 minutes ago, Dani said:

I haven’t seen the article but could they be talking about Valkyrie? It was cut out of Ragnarok but Tessa Thompson has made it clear that Valkyrie is bisexual. 

I can see that. Tessa Thompson would have great chemistry with anyone - male, female, CGI character, potted plant. Valkyrie and a returning Sif, perhaps?

But unless they do another Thor movie, with Thor back on Earth, I'm not sure whether we'll really see her again.

[Dandesun]

43 minutes ago, Lugal said:

I remember hearing that in the comics they made Loki pansexual and genderqueer.  I was unsure how it would work, but then I remembered Loki in the original Norse mythology and it fit.  Although I didn't think Loki shapeshifted, but just played with illusions.

Loki in the Nordic myths turned into a mare to lure a giant's stallion away to keep him from finishing a job on time and later gave birth to Odin's horse Sleipnir. 

Loki's pretty much whatever he/they might want to be.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

I can see that. Tessa Thompson would have great chemistry with anyone - male, female, CGI character, potted plant. Valkyrie and a returning Sif, perhaps?

But unless they do another Thor movie, with Thor back on Earth, I'm not sure whether we'll really see her again.

I was thinking about it and they could easily have her (or a version of her) on one of the tv shows. She’s Asgardian and she’s on earth now so realistically should could pop up anywhere. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Guest

[Jeebus Cripes]

4 hours ago, festivus said:

It still wouldn't surprise me if it was Bucky. They could always go with "well it was the 40's, how else would he act" and they haven't really done anything with Sam or Bucky as far as love interests. They never even did Bucky's thing with Natasha (despite a few comments that could hint at it) unless they are saving that for her solo movie. Who knows? If I had to guess right now going off very little information, I just don't know. Could be Carol. If I were deciding it, I'd probably go with Loki. Would be interesting and since he's technically already dead they'd probably get the least backlash with him. Because you know they're thinking about that. It'd be nice if they weren't but not realistic.

It will more than likely be Loki if it's an already established character, but I do think Bucky would be more interesting because of the 40s backstory. Loki seems like he would be sexually fluid, and I've always assumed as much. Bucky on the other hand, as a man from the 40s who also served in the army, now that's interesting. They won't go there because of Cap, though. No way does it turn out to be Bucky. 

[Dee]

4 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

Didn't Sam appreciatively checkout Natasha when they first met?

Sam also had an extended meet-cute with Steve just before that.

But everyone is always so committed to Sam being ramrod straight, wonder why.....

[Fukui San]

Guys, I know! How about Groot?

Groot meets male tree creature.

Groot: "I am Groot."

*everyone reacts*

Rocket: "Jeez! Why don't you two get a room already?"

[Dandesun]

7 minutes ago, Dee said:

Sam also had an extended meet-cute with Steve just before that.

But everyone is always so committed to Sam being ramrod straight, wonder why.....

Sam totally checked out Nat. And Steve. And them welcomed both into his home and cooked them breakfast. Because Steve apparently knew exactly where to go (as Dee pointed out ages ago) but, yeah, everyone's totes het all the live long day. BROS!

I rather like stories where Sam is very definitely not ramrod straight. Whether he's involved with Steve, Bucky, both or when stories don't kill off Riley (or have Riley as Sam's dead lover) and pair them. 

Perhaps too many think that Sam is the absolute voice of reason. Is he though? /Thor

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

It will more than likely be Loki if it's an already established character, but I do think Bucky would be more interesting because of the 40s backstory. Loki seems like he would be sexually fluid, and I've always assumed as much. Bucky on the other hand, as a man from the 40s who also served in the army, now that's interesting. They won't go there because of Cap, though. No way does it turn out to be Bucky. 

Bucky could be a compelling story but I almost don’t want them to go there because I doubt it would be given the needed depth. I expect the reveal to be handled in a casual matter of fact way.

I picturing something more like Captain Jack Harkness from Doctor Who or Sara from Legends of Tomorrow. Loki, Valkyrie or Sam would be better suited to that type of story. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Guest

[Apprentice79]

5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I'd be surprised if it was Bucky, given his confirmed interest in women in The First Avenger. Sure, he could come out as gay or bi, despite that. Seems simpler to do it with a character that hasn't shown any interest in the opposite sex thus far - Sam and Carol are the obvious candidates. Maybe Nebula, if she has any sexual desires at all.

Of all of them. I think Carol is the best option, and I actually think they're more likely to go with a gay woman than a gay man, for their first queer superhero. I think they'd consider it less controversial, and probably less likely to cause fanboy outrage.

Carol Danvers has already engendered a stupid backlash from the trolls, making her queer would just make them lose their minds even more. I think Loki could be fluid or it could be one of the ladies of Black Panther in the Dora Milaje. Given that Wakanda was never colonized by Christians and Muslims; I could see Wakanda being fine with LGBT people since they worship the panther Goddess Bast.  Shuri being queer would be interesting..

Edited May 9, 2019 by Apprentice79

[Raja]

45 minutes ago, Dee said:

Sam also had an extended meet-cute with Steve just before that.

But everyone is always so committed to Sam being ramrod straight, wonder why.....

Everyone? This is literally the first time I saw the possibility mentioned of the Falcon being LGBQT. Now Stucky shippers have taken over many a Marvel related discussion and get pushed back against because of it

[Jenniferbug]

I kinda don't want it to be Carol, simply because I'd like to see her as a superhero without a love internet (of any gender) for a while longer. It's so rare we get female leads that aren't also given a love story. I'd like to enjoy her for another movie or 2 as her own person before she's given a love interest to fill in her story.

I could easily see Loki or Valkyrie. I think one of the Externals is queer (or is being cast as such) so maybe that's what they're referring to? 

[Jeebus Cripes]

8 minutes ago, Jenniferbug said:

I kinda don't want it to be Carol, simply because I'd like to see her as a superhero without a love internet (of any gender) for a while longer. It's so rare we get female leads that aren't also given a love story. I'd like to enjoy her for another movie or 2 as her own person before she's given a love interest to fill in her story.

I agree with the sentiment here. Not everyone needs a love interest, and I was glad they didn't go the obvious route with her and Jude Law's character. Being lied to and betrayed by a romantic partner packs an emotional punch, but it's also a stale trope at this point. She's better off staying single for a while. Asexual people are also a thing, so there's that, too.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Asexual people are also a thing, so there's that, too.

There is always Groot. Current Groot is 100% the offspring of Original Groot, which is pretty much the definition of asexual.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Kel Varnsen

[Ohiopirate02]

29 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

There is always Groot. Current Groot is 100% the offspring of Original Groot, which is pretty much th definition of asexual.

But, Nebula did tell Gamora her romantic options were Peter or the Tree.  

[festivus]

1 hour ago, Apprentice79 said:

Carol Danvers has already engendered a stupid backlash from the trolls, making her queer would just make them lose their minds even more.

I don't think Marvel cares about internet trolls. The billion dollars makes them not care.  I think they care about international box office and that would be the reason they wouldn't do it.

I still think they'll test this out on the streaming service.

50 minutes ago, Jenniferbug said:

I could easily see Loki or Valkyrie. I think one of the Externals is queer (or is being cast as such) so maybe that's what they're referring to? 

I think the article implied it would be one of our current heroes so not an Eternal. Or not just an Eternal. I forgot where I read the article though. It could be Valkyrie but are they planning on using that character anytime soon?

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, festivus said:

I don't think Marvel cares about internet trolls. The billion dollars makes them not care.  I think they care about international box office and that would be the reason they wouldn't do it.

I still think they'll test this out on the streaming service.

I think the article implied it would be one of our current heroes so not an Eternal. Or not just an Eternal. I forgot where I read the article though. It could be Valkyrie but are they planning on using that character anytime soon?

This article has the interview that seems to be the basis for the reports. 

 ‘Avengers: Endgame’ Directors Say Marvel Will Reveal a Gay Character in an Upcoming Film (Video)

The part about a gay character is in the very beginning of the interview. Watching it I think they could have been talking about The Eternals for the upcoming film. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Guest

[Kel Varnsen]

37 minutes ago, festivus said:

I don't think Marvel cares about internet trolls. The billion dollars makes them not care.  I think they care about international box office and that would be the reason they wouldn't do it.

I don't think Marvel cares that much about the trolls either. While they are vocal I imagine they are relatively small. Plus I bet a lot of them still goes see these movies they claim to hate so they can complain about them more throughly online. So either way Marvel still gets their money.

[festivus]

Saw this last night in my late night YouTube-ing session. Pretty cute.

[SnoGirl]

On 5/9/2019 at 2:19 PM, Danny Franks said:

I can see that. Tessa Thompson would have great chemistry with anyone - male, female, CGI character, potted plant. Valkyrie and a returning Sif, perhaps?

But unless they do another Thor movie, with Thor back on Earth, I'm not sure whether we'll really see her again.

On 5/9/2019 at 4:42 PM, Apprentice79 said:

Carol Danvers has already engendered a stupid backlash from the trolls, making her queer would just make them lose their minds even more. I think Loki could be fluid or it could be one of the ladies of Black Panther in the Dora Milaje. Given that Wakanda was never colonized by Christians and Muslims; I could see Wakanda being fine with LGBT people since they worship the panther Goddess Bast.  Shuri being queer would be interesting..

Have you folks seen Tessa and Brie tweet at each other? They definitely ship Val/Danvers.

Personally I’d love to see some of our leading ladies sans a relationship because’s there’s already a lot of them. MJ/Peter, Nakia/T’Challa, Okoye/W’Kabi, Gamora/Peter, Christine/Strange, Lara/Hawkeye, Hope/Scott (did I get everyone? Is Okoye still married to W’Kabi?)

Shuri, Nebula, Mantis, Carol, Val, Maria, Maria Hill are all single right?

BUT I’m also down with representation. So if we see some of our heroes falling for each other-I’d be cool with it too. Plus, if they’re from different movies, like Val and Danvers, we could get some fun crossovers.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

Have you folks seen Tessa and Brie tweet at each other? They definitely ship Val/Danvers.

Personally I’d love to see some of our leading ladies sans a relationship because’s there’s already a lot of them. MJ/Peter, Nakia/T’Challa, Okoye/W’Kabi, Gamora/Peter, Christine/Strange, Lara/Hawkeye, Hope/Scott (did I get everyone? Is Okoye still married to W’Kabi?)

Shuri, Nebula, Mantis, Carol, Val, Maria, Maria Hill are all single right?

BUT I’m also down with representation. So if we see some of our heroes falling for each other-I’d be cool with it too. Plus, if they’re from different movies, like Val and Danvers, we could get some fun crossovers.

I want to see Carol be single for a while but I would completely be behind Valkyrie/Carol. Tessa and Brie are clearly great friends so I think they would really work well together in a movie. 

The only pairing I don’t want to see is Carol/Maria. Right now they are basically the only well developed female friendship in the MCU which is just pathetic when you think about it. 

Edited May 11, 2019 by Guest

[anna0852]

2 hours ago, SnoGirl said:

Have you folks seen Tessa and Brie tweet at each other? They definitely ship Val/Danvers.

Personally I’d love to see some of our leading ladies sans a relationship because’s there’s already a lot of them. MJ/Peter, Nakia/T’Challa, Okoye/W’Kabi, Gamora/Peter, Christine/Strange, Lara/Hawkeye, Hope/Scott (did I get everyone? Is Okoye still married to W’Kabi?)

Shuri, Nebula, Mantis, Carol, Val, Maria, Maria Hill are all single right?

BUT I’m also down with representation. So if we see some of our heroes falling for each other-I’d be cool with it too. Plus, if they’re from different movies, like Val and Danvers, we could get some fun crossovers.

Pretty sure she dumped his ass after he betrayed the throne. Okoye don't stand for that shit.

[Apprentice79]

3 hours ago, anna0852 said:

Pretty sure she dumped his ass after he betrayed the throne. Okoye don't stand for that shit.

I wonder if W'kabi was dusted in prison. What about Nakia?  I assume she was dusted as well. I would have loved to have seen Nakia and Natasha on an adventure together, oh well!

[Bruinsfan]

17 hours ago, anna0852 said:

Pretty sure she dumped his ass after he betrayed the throne. Okoye don't stand for that shit.

I could maybe see her forgiving him for being blinded by hunger for personal justice/vengeance though. What I can't see is W'kabi accepting that Okoye has other priorities ahead of him, so that relationship is toast either way.

[Danny Franks]

So I watched Age of Ultron last night, for the first time since I saw it at the cinema.... It's actually worse than I remember. Just boring and garbled and really not well directed. It's bizarre that someone as accomplished as Joss Whedon managed to bungle so many action scenes, and sign off on sub-par CGI.

I remember when I saw it the first time, and that opening shot was where alarms bells started going off. The bit where they all jump across the screen in unison, meant to be a huge, hero shot, and it just looks really fake.

There's really very little about it I like at all -

1. Cap barely moving Thor's hammer, which is followed up nicely by Vision effortlessly lifting it.

2. Elizabeth Olson's Wanda is immediately interesting. Angry and cruel (to people she believes deserve it), but sympathetic and quick to see the light when it's shown to her.

3. The mention of Wakanda as the source of vibranium.

Honestly, that might be it. I always hated the Natasha/Bruce thing, and it's just as bad on rewatch. Forced, even with third parties talking about how cute a couple they make. No chemistry whatsoever, with both actors looking really uncomfortable with the terrible dialogue. The beaten-into-the-ground beauty and the beast trope.

Thankfully, Marvel dumped a lot of what Whedon did with this movie.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

So I watched Age of Ultron last night, for the first time since I saw it at the cinema.... It's actually worse than I remember. Just boring and garbled and really not well directed. It's bizarre that someone as accomplished as Joss Whedon managed to bungle so many action scenes, and sign off on sub-par CGI.

I remember seeing it in theatres. I don't think its the worst mcu movie but it was probably the biggest disappointment for me. I loved Ultron from the comics and was excited from seeing the trailers. But the biggest problem for me was how poorly they tracked what everyone was doing in the final battle. I remember their being long stretches where I would wonder what Hulk or Cap or whoever was doing. The first Avengers was so good at that which is why it was so noticable to me. And Infinity War was amazing at, especially with so many characters doing completely separate stories for most of the movie. 

It didn't help that Whedon started complaing about how difficult the studio made it for him, which confirmed a theory I had about him for a long time where if something goes good he will bask in all the credit, but if something goes bad he is quick to blame someone else.  And related to that the stupid fucking Thor in the pool scene. What the hell.

[Danny Franks]

28 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I remember seeing it in theatres. I don't think its the worst mcu movie but it was probably the biggest disappointment for me. I loved Ultron from the comics and was excited from seeing the trailers. But the biggest problem for me was how poorly they tracked what everyone was doing in the final battle. I remember their being long stretches where I would wonder what Hulk or Cap or whoever was doing. The first Avengers was so good at that which is why it was so noticable to me. And Infinity War was amazing at, especially with so many characters doing completely separate stories for most of the movie. 

I noticed that when watching. One example is when they show one of the last Ultron robots activating the macguffin that is going to send Sokovia crashing into the Earth. Then a couple of shots later, Thor is in the same place, ready to hit the macguffin with his hammer. We never see him arrive, or even react to the big lump of rock starting to fall (as far as I saw, anyway).

I honestly can't remember anything Cap or Iron Man do in the big, climactic battle.

34 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

It didn't help that Whedon started complaing about how difficult the studio made it for him, which confirmed a theory I had about him for a long time where if something goes good he will bask in all the credit, but if something goes bad he is quick to blame someone else.  And related to that the stupid fucking Thor in the pool scene. What the hell.

I don't buy that the studio interfered and made the movie bad. Because we have twenty one other Marvel movies that indicate studio micromanagement has not been a problem for the MCU. If anything, my guess is that Marvel saw what a mess the movie was, and stepped in to try and clean it up.

This was all on Joss Whedon, in my opinion. He wrote a bad movie, which he went on to direct badly.

[Lugal]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

It didn't help that Whedon started complaing about how difficult the studio made it for him, which confirmed a theory I had about him for a long time where if something goes good he will bask in all the credit, but if something goes bad he is quick to blame someone else.  And related to that the stupid fucking Thor in the pool scene. What the hell.

I agree about Whedon's assigning of blame (it's never his fault) see his talk about Alien Resurrection and Halle Berry's toad line in X-men.  While he complains about interference the stuff he did with Black Widow in the movie feels like they gave him too much leeway.

Age of Ultron had all the parts to make a good movie, and while not horrible, it wasn't as riveting as it should have been.  Although I would add to Danny Frank's list James Spader as the voice of Ultron.  I thought he nailed it.

[Bruinsfan]

My understanding is that the whole subplot with Thor taking a dip in the LSD pool to have a vision/exposition dump about future movie plots was a trade-off for getting to include all those pastoral shots of Hawkeye's home and family from Wal-mart picture frames that left me ice cold. The movie probably would have been stronger without both, in my opinion.

I also had a BIG problem with Ultron making all his snarky quips—that's fine for Loki, the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, and a lot of other Avengers villains, but the homicidal robot should be pretty serious and devoid of humor.

[anna0852]

55 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

I also had a BIG problem with Ultron making all his snarky quips—that's fine for Loki, the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, and a lot of other Avengers villains, but the homicidal robot should be pretty serious and devoid of humor.

That part actually rang true for me. Ultrons programming originated with Tony. Of course he's snarky!

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

It didn't help that Whedon started complaing about how difficult the studio made it for him, which confirmed a theory I had about him for a long time where if something goes good he will bask in all the credit, but if something goes bad he is quick to blame someone else.  And related to that the stupid fucking Thor in the pool scene. What the hell.

That's just classic Whedon. He will blame everyone else for something failing, actor, studio, network, etc.

He also follows patterns, always going for cheap deaths (Wash, Tara, Pietro).

[Danny Franks]

14 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

That's just classic Whedon. He will blame everyone else for something failing, actor, studio, network, etc.

He also follows patterns, always going for cheap deaths (Wash, Tara, Pietro).

The Pietro one is especially dumb, as the guy is apparently fast enough to cover whatever distance he needed to stand in front of Clint and get shot, but not fast enough to dive and take all three of them out of the path of the bullets.

I believe Pietro may have been slated to die thanks to the agreement Marvel had with Fox over the character but, if so, that was the best Whedon could manage? It's not even shot well (as usual, with this movie).

Not that I cared one jot about Pietro, mind you.

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Bruinsfan said:

My understanding is that the whole subplot with Thor taking a dip in the LSD pool to have a vision/exposition dump about future movie plots was a trade-off for getting to include all those pastoral shots of Hawkeye's home and family from Wal-mart picture frames that left me ice cold. The movie probably would have been stronger without both, in my opinion.

I get that the pool thing was supposed to be a huge info dump and I get that it was cut way down by the studio. But Whedon is still the writer/director and that scene was completely incoherent so if he can't make it make sense in the time he has, that's on him.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

I believe Pietro may have been slated to die thanks to the agreement Marvel had with Fox over the character but, if so, that was the best Whedon could manage? It's not even shot well (as usual, with this movie).

That seems to be the online consensus. If that's the case, I hope now that Disney/Marvel owns the X-Men we can get MCU Pietro back. I really liked that version of the character. Which is surprising since I didn't like QuickSiver in the comics but, I liked what the actor/Whedon did with him. I much prefer the MCU version to the FOX version

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

That seems to be the online consensus. If that's the case, I hope now that Disney/Marvel owns the X-Men we can get MCU Pietro back. I really liked that version of the character. Which is surprising since I didn't like QuickSiver in the comics but, I liked what the actor/Whedon did with him. I much prefer the MCU version to the FOX version

That’s what I’ve always read but oddly I can’t find a single thing to support it. Whedon has said that it was completely his decision and he had a plan in place for if Marvel wouldn’t let him do it. The closest thing I can find is that Whedon was unhappy that Days of Future Past was also using Quicksilver. Maybe Marvel didn’t want to deal with the confusion but there is nothing that says he had to be killed. 

JOSS WHEDON AND AARON TAYLOR-JOHNSON DISCUSS QUICKSILVER’S MARVEL FUTURE

Joss Whedon & Kevin Feige on Quicksilver in Avengers & X-Men

[Jazzy24]

4 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

That seems to be the online consensus. If that's the case, I hope now that Disney/Marvel owns the X-Men we can get MCU Pietro back. I really liked that version of the character. Which is surprising since I didn't like QuickSiver in the comics but, I liked what the actor/Whedon did with him. I much prefer the MCU version to the FOX version

I love Pietro even in the comics he’s one of my favs. I liked how accurate he was to the comics. I also wished that he was on the Scarlet Witch series instead of Vision. 

[VCRTracking]

[Morrigan2575]

58 minutes ago, Jazzy24 said:

I love Pietro even in the comics he’s one of my favs. I liked how accurate he was to the comics. I also wished that he was on the Scarlet Witch series instead of Vision. 

I used to read Avengers back in the 90s (during the Crystal/QuickSilver/Sersi/Black Knight quadrangle) and, i really didn't like Pietro or Crystal or really anyone but Sersi. However, I was reading Peter David's X-Factor run a few years ago (with Gambit, QuickSilver, Polaris, Doug, Warlock and Danger) and, I really liked how Peter David wrote Pietro. Whedon is the only other person to make me like him.

I still don't like comics Wanda 😁

Edited May 12, 2019 by Morrigan2575

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I used to read Avengers back in the 90s (during the Crystal/QuickSilver/Sersi/Black Knight quadrangle) and, i really didn't like Pietro or Crystal or really anyone but Sersi. However, I was reading Peter David's X-Factor run a few years ago (with Gambit, QuickSilver, Polaris, Doug, Warlock and Danger) and, I really liked how Peter David wrote Pietro. Whedon is the only other person to make me like him.

I still don't like comics Wanda 😁

You should try the previous X-Factor series that Peter David wrote, built around Jamie Madrox running a private investigator company. It's really good. Pietro appears as a sort of delusional pseudo-villain, driven half crazy by Wanda's "No more mutants" altering of reality. He's an arrogant asshole, as Pietro always has been, but still a lot of fun.

If there's one X-Men property I'd love to see a TV show of, it's X-Factor Investigations.

[HunterHunted]

They were busy patting themselves on the back over Joe Russo's inconsequential Endgame character being gay. In all likelihood, the gay characters are going to be equally as minor. It's probably Korg and Ayo and it's not like they aren't heroic. They are heroes, but with a little "h." Those characters are queer in the comics. 

[JessePinkman]

I never understood why Ultron was so overstuffed.

They introduced Ultron, born confused and immediately made evil. He's a villain you can just introduce and defeat in a single movie. They should have used Iron Man 3 to plant the seeds for Ultron. Wanda and Pietro are bad and then good pretty quickly. Vision, also born confused, immediately good. Added to that we had Widow and Hulk's "love (???) story" which was the result of her spending most of The Avengers terrified of him. It was all too much.

It felt like they were rushing things for some other goal.

[Dee]

If you think Age Of Ultron is overstuffed, you should see Civil War....

[VCRTracking]

On 5/12/2019 at 1:05 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

I used to read Avengers back in the 90s (during the Crystal/QuickSilver/Sersi/Black Knight quadrangle)

Ah the "bomber jacket" years.

[Jeebus Cripes]

10 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Ah the "bomber jacket" years.

LOL. I wanted one so badly back then. 

[HunterHunted]

On 5/12/2019 at 9:00 AM, Danny Franks said:

I don't buy that the studio interfered and made the movie bad. Because we have twenty one other Marvel movies that indicate studio micromanagement has not been a problem for the MCU. If anything, my guess is that Marvel saw what a mess the movie was, and stepped in to try and clean it up.

This was all on Joss Whedon, in my opinion. He wrote a bad movie, which he went on to direct badly.

More than one filmmaker has complained about studio interference, specifically Ike Perlmutter and the Creative Committee. So I don't think it's simple to say that Joss is solely responsible for Age of Ultron being a messy film. James Gunn has complained about Perlmutter. Perlmutter ran Edgar Wright, Patty Jenkins, and Ava Duvernay off projects. Alan Taylor has talked about issues he had with studio interference on Thor: The Dark World. Shane Black has hinted that the weird villain bloat in Iron Man 3 is due to Perlmutter. The Russos have alluded to issues that they had with Perlmutter on Civil War. There were even rumors that Perlmutter wanted Iron Man cut from Civil War to save money on the budget with RDJ's salary and replaced with the Hulk in a narrative decision that makes no sense. Perlmutter's racism and sexism ended up backburnering Black Panther, Captain Marvel, and Black Widow films until Feige managed to make a power play to exclude Perlmutter from the film side and that only happened once Civil War was complete.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/09/marvel-studios-ike-perlmutter-kevin-feige

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/09/02/the-marvel-creative-committee-is-over

This isn't to say that Joss is blameless, but there is more than enough information to suggest that "studio involvement" might have actually interfered and overwhelmed the Age of Ultron production.

[tennisgurl]

From what I have understood, Whedon probably did have to deal with a lot of studio interference with Pealmutter in charge, so he probably wasnt totally wrong to complain about how Ultron turned out. Pearlmutter was known to be racist, sexist, and generally a real pain in the ass to anyone with a creative bone in their body that was obsessed with his Inhuman pet project (and we all know how THAT turned out) because he was bitter about losing the X Men rights, and Feige had to basically pull a major power play to get rid of him to get the MCU back on track and do damage control, and the MCU has been much better off since, so his complaints are not nothing. 

On the other hand, many things that I dislike about the movie, like the over reliance on quips, the pointless shock death of Quicksilver (that they couldn't even shot well!), the equally pointless romance between Nat and Bruce, making Nat not only a pointless damsel but giving her so many very female specific issues (being sterilized, her being weirdly both maternal to the Hulk but being the lover of Bruce), thats all just classic Whedon. The guy will just never take responsibility for his own shit, its always someone elses fault when his work does not get universal praise. 

Honestly, a lot of my feelings for Whedon are shaded around that never filmed Wonder Woman scipt that was never filmed which was just...one of the worst kinds of WW movies that could have possibly been made. Its probably unfair to judge a movie that never saw editing and was probably a first draft, but it was SO bad, and SO filled with the worst Whedon tropes, but none of the good ones, it kind of clouded how I look at his more recent work. 

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

More than one filmmaker has complained about studio interference, specifically Ike  Perlmutter and the Creative Committee. So I don't think it's simple to say that Joss is solely responsible for Age of Ultron being a messy film. James Gunn has complained about Perlmutter. Perlmutter ran Edgar Wright, Patty Jenkins, and Ava Duvernay off projects. Alan Taylor has talked about issues he had with studio interference on Thor: The Dark World. Shane Black has hinted that the weird villain bloat in Iron Man 3 is due to Perlmutter. The Russos have alluded to issues that they had with Perlmutter on Civil War. There were even rumors that Perlmutter wanted Iron Man cut from Civil War to save money on the budget with RDJ's salary and replaced with the Hulk in a narrative decision that makes no sense. Perlmutter's racism and sexism ended up backburnering Black Panther, Captain Marvel, and Black Widow films until Feige managed to make a power play to exclude Perlmutter from the film side and that only happened once Civil War was complete.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/09/marvel-studios-ike-perlmutter-kevin-feige

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/09/02/the-marvel-creative-committee-is-over

This isn't to say that Joss is blameless, but there is more than enough information to suggest that "studio involvement" might have actually interfered and overwhelmed the Age of Ultron production.

Very true. It’s definitely not a coincidence that many of Marvel’s biggest issues such as the lack of diversity and bad villains went away as soon as Perlmutter and the Creative Committee we’re out of the picture. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Guest

[Kel Varnsen]

8 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

From what I have understood, Whedon probably did have to deal with a lot of studio interference with Pealmutter in charge, so he probably wasnt totally wrong to complain about how Ultron turned out. Pearlmutter was known to be racist, sexist, and generally a real pain in the ass to anyone with a creative bone in their body that was obsessed with his Inhuman pet project (and we all know how THAT turned out) because he was bitter about losing the X Men rights, and Feige had to basically pull a major power play to get rid of him to get the MCU back on track and do damage control, and the MCU has been much better off since,

Even if there was studio interference and I am sure there was between Ike and the fact that it was a disney movie with a $400 million plus budget,  Whedon has been working in Hollywood for years (and I believe is from a multi-generational Hollywood family). He even worked for Roseanne. How could he not have expected that? And then how do you go on to be back up director for Justice League.

And speaking of X-men (and I know this is probably sacrilegious) but when they do appear in the MCU I hope their are no mutant prejudice is a thinly veiled version of racism storylines. Because not only are they so played out, but even when reading comics they made no sense. How could people be ok with Captain America getting his powers from science  (or whoever) but be scared/hate cyclops who got his powers from a mutant gene.