The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[VCRTracking]

23 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

If you'd been going by what you saw in the films, you'd think SHIELD gets involved with big calamitous events, except when they don't want to like Hulk stuff or any of that Vanko mess. I think, going in, a lot of fans had no clue what to expect of the show. And I remember, even 2 seasons in, thinking they might have had an easier time if they had just gone with a Damage Control show.

Like literally the episode after Thor: The Dark World came out they show them cleaning up the aftermath in England, which I thought was hilarious.

[Kel Varnsen]

3 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Actually most of the fight scenes on AoS and Marvel Netflix are better than the movies because the films have never met an opportunity for a cut that they didn't take. It's all cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut just to show 3 punches.

Not sure I totally agree with that. While the fight scenes in AoS are pretty good and the Daredevil fight scenes are memorable, the fights in both Luke Cage and Iron Fist really suck. Luke Cage's fights are boring as shit because dummies kept trying to punch or shoot him and it did nothing. It got old fast.

Iron Fist was even worse. The guy is supposed to be the best martial arts master in the MCU but his fights sure didn't show it. To make it worse he was created in the 70's during the martial arts craze of the time. They should have been better than Enter the Dragon, The Matrix and Crouching Tiger put together. But it looked like he wasn't even as good a fighter as Daredevil.

[Enigma X]

AoS is one of my favorite shows (not this season though). It did have its hiccups, but I really enjoy the way the team works together. For me, it wasn't until the second season it found its voice.

[blueray]

16 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Not sure I totally agree with that. While the fight scenes in AoS are pretty good and the Daredevil fight scenes are memorable, the fights in both Luke Cage and Iron Fist really suck. Luke Cage's fights are boring as shit because dummies kept trying to punch or shoot him and it did nothing. It got old fast.

Iron Fist was even worse. The guy is supposed to be the best martial arts master in the MCU but his fights sure didn't show it. To make it worse he was created in the 70's during the martial arts craze of the time. They should have been better than Enter the Dragon, The Matrix and Crouching Tiger put together. But it looked like he wasn't even as good a fighter as Daredevil.

He really wasn't. They at least admitted this buy having Matt kick his ass in the defenders. Which I was happy about seeing as Matt is the better fighter.

Edited May 25, 2018 by blueray

[HunterHunted]

19 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Not sure I totally agree with that. While the fight scenes in AoS are pretty good and the Daredevil fight scenes are memorable, the fights in both Luke Cage and Iron Fist really suck. Luke Cage's fights are boring as shit because dummies kept trying to punch or shoot him and it did nothing. It got old fast.

Iron Fist was even worse. The guy is supposed to be the best martial arts master in the MCU but his fights sure didn't show it. To make it worse he was created in the 70's during the martial arts craze of the time. They should have been better than Enter the Dragon, The Matrix and Crouching Tiger put together. But it looked like he wasn't even as good a fighter as Daredevil.

I agree Luke Cage's fights aren't particularly exciting and Iron Fist's are actually terrible when they include Danny Rand; when they don't, they're fine. Jessica Jones doesn't really have fights. I guess I should have amended it to AoS, Daredevil, and any fight excluding Danny Rand in Iron Fist.

Edited May 25, 2018 by HunterHunted

[VCRTracking]

4 hours ago, stealinghome said:

I don’t even think it was about having its own agenda, the show just needed to make me CARE about the characters pre-Winter Soldier, so that I cared when the team felt the reverberations of that movie. The show literally had one job pre-Winter Soldier: make me care. It failed miserably at that. I liked May and Simmons and had the show been about them I’d totally have kept on watching, but they couldn’t outweigh my seething dislike for Skye, high-key irritation with Coulson, and low-key eyeroll towards Fitz and Ward. (Seriously, the best episode I remember watching is whenever Maria Hill showed up to verbally bitchslap Coulson. It was SO satisfying to see her tell him to stfu!)

You may or may not have changed your mind even though there was evolution with the characters you like Coulson, Daisy(formerly Skye), Fitz and Ward  but there were characters that came later like Mack, Bobbi Morse(Mockingbird), Hunter and Elena(Yo-Yo) that were great. I really got to care about that group over the five seasons.

Edited May 25, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Cobalt Stargazer]

[Jeebus Cripes]

11 hours ago, stealinghome said:

I don’t even think it was about having its own agenda, the show just needed to make me CARE about the characters pre-Winter Soldier, so that I cared when the team felt the reverberations of that movie. The show literally had one job pre-Winter Soldier: make me care. It failed miserably at that. I liked May and Simmons and had the show been about them I’d totally have kept on watching, but they couldn’t outweigh my seething dislike for Skye, high-key irritation with Coulson, and low-key eyeroll towards Fitz and Ward. (Seriously, the best episode I remember watching is whenever Maria Hill showed up to verbally bitchslap Coulson. It was SO satisfying to see her tell him to stfu!)

There is something inherently boring about the show, and IMO it boils down to the characters. Even this season, when they were doing all the trippy space/time-travel shenanigans, I found myself more interested in the new alien characters than any of the main cast. Ward got kind of appealing when he turned dark, and there are times when I've enjoyed Simmons and Fitz, but there is an overall blandness to the cast that prevents me from enjoying the show. As you said, they don't make me care enough.

Didn't I read they were supposed to have a bit part in Infinity War? Are they supposed to be in the new one or was this scrapped altogether? I really have no desire to see them mix in with the films whatsoever. 

[festivus]

6 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

There is something inherently boring about the show, and IMO it boils down to the characters. Even this season, when they were doing all the trippy space/time-travel shenanigans, I found myself more interested in the new alien characters than any of the main cast. Ward got kind of appealing when he turned dark, and there are times when I've enjoyed Simmons and Fitz, but there is an overall blandness to the cast that prevents me from enjoying the show. As you said, they don't make me care enough.

That's the problem for me. I tried watching the show but the characters were just so bland I couldn't do it. I also hope they don't mix them in with the movies because I know I'm never going to watch the show. I keep telling myself that I need to because I watch all the others but nah, it ain't gonna happen.

[Kel Varnsen]

22 minutes ago, festivus said:

That's the problem for me. I tried watching the show but the characters were just so bland I couldn't do it. I also hope they don't mix them in with the movies because I know I'm never going to watch the show. I keep telling myself that I need to because I watch all the others but nah, it ain't gonna happen.

I watch AoS but kind of begrudgingly, since it has never been that great even after the winter soldier reveal. I mean there are some good eps and plot lines, but I find the stories they try to tell are always too big. Too much save the world type stuff which means you have to elevate the abilities of the characters too much. So you have a character who was the world's greatest hacker who then became an Avengers level suprr hero. You have an engineer who is inventing stuff better than Tony Stark, and a world class biologist who is also a competent physician. But then you since they are so great you have to come up with dumb obstacles to get in their way.

Plus then you have these world ending events with no one ever even suggesting calling the Avengers. And i know the common excuse is that movie actors won't do TV but I always thought that was a crap excuse. Marvel is known for being hardasses when it comes to contract negotiations so make tv apperances a contract requirement. Plus if a movie actor can spend a week at snl they can spend a day on set of a marvel tv show.

[Joe]

5 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I watch AoS but kind of begrudgingly, since it has never been that great even after the winter soldier reveal. I mean there are some good eps and plot lines, but I find the stories they try to tell are always too big. Too much save the world type stuff which means you have to elevate the abilities of the characters too much. So you have a character who was the world's greatest hacker who then became an Avengers level suprr hero. You have an engineer who is inventing stuff better than Tony Stark, and a world class biologist who is also a competent physician. But then you since they are so great you have to come up with dumb obstacles to get in their way.

Plus then you have these world ending events with no one ever even suggesting calling the Avengers. And i know the common excuse is that movie actors won't do TV but I always thought that was a crap excuse. Marvel is known for being hardasses when it comes to contract negotiations so make tv apperances a contract requirement. Plus if a movie actor can spend a week at snl they can spend a day on set of a marvel tv show.

Ike Perlmutter and Kevin Feige broke up. Feige got control of the movies and Perlmutter the TV shows. While they're controlled by two different and opposed forces, they'll never team up again.

[anna0852]

I was going to say the problem is it with the movie actors. Multiple of them have gone on record to say they'd be happy to do the TV shows. The issue is the feud between the Marvel television and Marvel movies departments.

[HunterHunted]

2 hours ago, Joe said:

Ike Perlmutter and Kevin Feige broke up. Feige got control of the movies and Perlmutter the TV shows. While they're controlled by two different and opposed forces, they'll never team up again.

 

2 hours ago, anna0852 said:

I was going to say the problem isn't it with the movie actors. Multiple of them have gone on record to say they'd be happy to do the TV shows. The issue is the feud between the Marvel television and Marvel movies departments.

The Russos have alluded that they'd like to use Jessica Jones and in that interview, Markus and McFeely said that they wanted to show Luke Cage during Infinity War. But this feud between the 2 halves of the House of Marvel does not seem like it will be solved at any point soon. The real problem besides the relationship between Perlmutter and Feige is that the shows do ok, but not great, which means that Perlmutter doesn't have the leverage to force Feige to cooperate more.

Additionally if RDJ, Evans, Hemsworth, Pratt, Saldana, or Johansson really wanted to appear on the TV side or incorporate one of the TV characters into the films, we know that Feige would probably make it happen. It's how Edward Norton was able to get that cameo by Michael K. Williams into the Incredible Hulk because Norton had been watching the Wire and loved Omar. It's also how RDJ got that weird cameo by Adam Pally in Iron Man 3; RDJ had been watching Happy Endings on like Hulu or something and just loved Pally and insisted he be written into Iron Man 3. If a big enough MCU star wanted it to happen, Feige would probably figure out a way to get it done.

[JessePinkman]

The MCU actors say they wouldn’t mind doing the TV shows to be polite. That’s it. These shows couldn’t afford half an hour of their quote honestly.

And it can diminish a movie stars big screen appeal if they do TV, especially when they’re all in the prime of their careers starring in these enormous movies.

[Apprentice79]

22 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

The MCU actors say they wouldn’t mind doing the TV shows to be polite. That’s it. These shows couldn’t afford half an hour of their quote honestly.

And it can diminish a movie stars big screen appeal if they do TV, especially when they’re all in the prime of their careers starring in these enormous movies.

Do you think that the supporting casts of the MCU would object to doing TV. For example, Okoye, Shuri and M'Baku could do some episodes on Cloak and Dagger.  The principal actors on that show had a nice rapport with Chadwick in an interview. I don't expect T'Challa to appear on their show, but, it would be nice if Okoye lend them a hand on a mission. Since Wakanda has revealed themselves to the world, it would make sense to see some Wakandans interact with people. Plus, I assume the war dogs are still stationed around the world to keep Wakanda safe, now more than ever.

There could even be a show about the war dogs and their various missions around the world and how that affects Wakanda and their lives in the outside world.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Apprentice79

[Kel Varnsen]

12 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

The MCU actors say they wouldn’t mind doing the TV shows to be polite. That’s it. These shows couldn’t afford half an hour of their quote honestly.

The shows not being able to afford the movie actors doesn't add up to me. Most of the Avengers have hosted SNL for which they make actor minimum wage. Same when they go on Colbert. The reason they do it is because their multi-million dollar movie contracts usually have a requirement to do promotion. A couple of days on set of Agents of Shield or Daredevil could easily be written in a contract the same way, if anyone had the interest in doing so.

4 hours ago, Joe said:

Ike Perlmutter and Kevin Feige broke up. Feige got control of the movies and Perlmutter the TV shows. While they're controlled by two different and opposed forces, they'll never team up again.

But Feige and Perlmutter still report to the same bosses. Would be nice if those bosses stepped in and realized that having a proper shared universe could potentially improve things.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, Apprentice79 said:

Do you think that the supporting casts of the MCU would object to doing TV.

Particularly since we're going to have to wait a whole year for what happens after Infinity War. Yes, Captain Marvel will be happening as well, but that's set way before any of the 'current' timeline, so it probably won't even touch on those events, even if Ronan is going to be a factor.

[Apprentice79]

11 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Particularly since we're going to have to wait a whole year for what happens after Infinity War. Yes, Captain Marvel will be happening as well, but that's set way before any of the 'current' timeline, so it probably won't even touch on those events, even if Ronan is going to be a factor.

I want to see M'Baku interact with the outside world. I could imagine his funny reactions. He is all about traditions, preserving the culture and against technology destroying that.  I love his growing bond with T'Challa. He called T'Challa, his brother in Infinity war.   I would love to see them go on an adventure in Black Panther 2 and 3.. 

I know that would never happen. It would be cool if Captain Marvel had crossed paths with T'Chakka.  Her movie will exist when he was the King of Wakanda.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Apprentice79

[Raja]

43 minutes ago, Apprentice79 said:

Do you think that the supporting casts of the MCU would object to doing TV. For example, Okoye, Shuri and M'Baku could do some episodes on Cloak and Dagger.  The principal actors on that show had a nice rapport with Chadwick in an interview. I don't expect T'Challa to appear on their show, but, it would be nice if Okoye lend them a hand on a mission. Since Wakanda has revealed themselves to the world, it would make sense to see some Wakandans interact with people. Plus, I assume the war dogs are still stationed around the world to keep Wakanda safe, now more than ever.

There could even be a show about the war dogs and their various missions around the world and how that affects Wakanda and their lives in the outside world.

That is where Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D was with Director Nick Fury, Assistant Director Maria Hill and Lady Sif of Asgard making appearances, a guest starring role for Lady Sif,  in the first two seasons 

[stealinghome]

Just now, Raja said:

That is where Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D was with Director Nick Fury, Assistant Director Maria Hill and Lady Sif of Asgard making appearances, a guest starring role for Lady Sif,  in the first two seasons 

If memory serves, back in that first season Jeremy Renner also offered to appear on AOS for basically actor minimum wage (though they didn't take him up on it).

I know that part of it is the Feige/Perlmutter tension, but I also wonder if we might've seen more MCU cameos had AOS been better-received. Fairly or not, AOS was pretty widely considered a disappointment in its first season, which must have discouraged further crossovers/cameos.

Quote

There is something inherently boring about the show, and IMO it boils down to the characters. Even this season, when they were doing all the trippy space/time-travel shenanigans, I found myself more interested in the new alien characters than any of the main cast. Ward got kind of appealing when he turned dark, and there are times when I've enjoyed Simmons and Fitz, but there is an overall blandness to the cast that prevents me from enjoying the show. As you said, they don't make me care enough.

I think they came off as so bland because--at least when I watched--the characters were so clearly just walking, talking archetypes. There was nothing distinctive about any of them, and (at least to the point where I stopped watching) the show didn't even try to distinguish them from the archetype. The only actor who was able to convince me that there might be more "there" there was Ming-Na Wen, and that's only because she's so damn talented. (I liked the actress who played Simmons, but that was because she had a sort of infectious energy/charm, not because she did a whole lot to individualize the character. Casting less bland actors probably also would've helped.)

I do also think that AOS starting off in the 8pm time slot, in a clear attempt to be kid-friendly, probably also hurt it. "Kid-friendly" and "morally gray spy organization" don't really go together. The show always felt too Disney for me to be convincing as a show about SHIELD.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

43 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

I do also think that AOS starting off in the 8pm time slot, in a clear attempt to be kid-friendly, probably also hurt it. "Kid-friendly" and "morally gray spy organization" don't really go together. The show always felt too Disney for me to be convincing as a show about SHIELD.

In all fairness, even the movies don't make things as morally gray as they could. As viewers, we can infer that SHIELD did things that weren't always on the up and up, but in practice things like Phase Two and Operation Insight were not looked on as good solutions but part of the problem. Even Fury conceded to allowing the dismantling of not just Hydra but SHIELD as well, and while the nearly successful attempt on his life was a factor, IMO Nick tends to be more of a realist than Steve, who takes everything at face value.

[Bruinsfan]

6 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

The real problem besides the relationship between Perlmutter and Feige is that the shows do ok, but not great, which means that Perlmutter doesn't have the leverage to force Feige to cooperate more.

I don't regard that as a problem. The movies are being planned in a cohesive vision that's generally competent and entertaining. Perlmutter's projects only seem to stumble backwards into being occasionally watchable (Jessica Jones being the exception), and I don't want him having ANY leverage to inflict his taste and judgement on the cinematic projects and their audience.

 

3 hours ago, stealinghome said:

The only actor who was able to convince me that there might be more "there" there was Ming-Na Wen, and that's only because she's so damn talented. (I liked the actress who played Simmons, but that was because she had a sort of infectious energy/charm, not because she did a whole lot to individualize the character. Casting less bland actors probably also would've helped.)

Ming-Na managed to turn in compelling performances on Stargate Universe, whose writing (and most of its acting) made AoS look like Hill Street Blues by comparison. The woman is an underappreciated treasure.

[benteen]

8 hours ago, Apprentice79 said:

I know that would never happen. It would be cool if Captain Marvel had crossed paths with T'Chakka.  Her movie will exist when he was the King of Wakanda.

I've thought about this too.  I'd love to see the heroes of the pre-MCU days get together.  Throw in Hank Pym too, coming out of retirement.

[HunterHunted]

3 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I don't regard that as a problem. The movies are being planned in a cohesive vision that's generally competent and entertaining. Perlmutter's projects only seem to stumble backwards into being occasionally watchable (Jessica Jones being the exception), and I don't want him having ANY leverage to inflict his taste and judgement on the cinematic projects and their audience.

We were considering the issue of the impediments to integrating the TV side with the film side. If there is an impediment, then that's technically a problem. Whether the TV shows are worthy of integration with the films is another issue entirely. Kevin Feige has done a remarkable job creating an entertaining and cohesive universe. However, Jeph Loeb and to a lesser extent Ike Perlmutter have a monstrous beast to wrangle. In a certain sense it's almost  harder than the film universe.

The films have almost been self-sustaining since after the Avengers and that's definitely not true of the TV side, which makes it harder to build to cohesive story. Furthermore, I'm not sure that's ever what they planned on doing with Agents of SHIELD. Feige put together over 40 hours of entertaining relatively interconnected stories. Agents of SHIELD has 110 episodes, Daredevil has 26, Jessica Jones has 26, Agent Carter has 18, Luke Cage has 13 with another 10 about to drop, Iron Fist has 13, Punisher has 13, Defenders has 8, Runaways has 10, and Inhumans had 8. The TV side is 6 times the length of the films. And I think they've done a pretty decent job overall--seasons 3 and 4 of Agents of SHIELD were really very good, Agent Carter was stellar, season 1 of Daredevil is good and novel, Jessica Jones is very good, the first half of season 1 of Luke Cage is fantastic. That's got to be at least 40 really good hours of TV.

The TV side has devoted more time to Peggy Carter than the movies have ever devoted to Captain America. And if the film side had the time to devote to Steve and Sharon that Agent Carter devoted to Peggy and maybe Souza or Jarvis and Mrs. Jarvis, Steve and Sharon wouldn't have looked like a creepy ham-fisted mess. There are trade-offs for both mediums. TV allows you to marinate with deep character studies. Film allow you to distill everything to its most essential entertaining parts. 

The films are really entertaining, but I think some of movie characters have been poorly served by the format. Like I know some people think Sam joining team Cap in Winter Soldier was set up fine; I thought it was for shit. Prior to Cap and Nat showing up on Sam's doorstep, Sam and Steve have 2 conversations about PTSD and losing friends. You have to hand wave away that Sam must be a big enough Cap fan that he's read extensively about him that he would follow him into battle because textually there is nothing in the film justifying the decision. It's weird and the film uses Mackie's charm to cover over Sam's narrative plot holes. There's no indication that prior to the fall of SHIELD that Sam or the average person knows what HYDRA is. In Iron Man 1, Pepper and Tony don't even really know what SHIELD is. Cap and Nat show up and Sam's like "hell yeah, I'll help you stop a 70 year old Nazi death cult that I've never heard anything about." Sam's someone who needs an extended format to explore why he's done any of the things he's done for the last 6 years.

[Dee]

Why does Sam need all that context for his motives to be plausible?

The entire premise of Civil War was based on Steve & Tony's friendship which virtually never occurred onscreen.

[Raja]

On 5/26/2018 at 9:54 PM, HunterHunted said:

aracters have been poorly served by the format. Like I know some people think Sam joining team Cap in Winter Soldier was set up fine; I thought it was for shit. Prior to Cap and Nat showing up on Sam's doorstep, Sam and Steve have 2 conversations about PTSD and losing friends. You have to hand wave away that Sam must be a big enough Cap fan that he's read extensively about him that he would follow him into battle because textually there is nothing in the film justifying the decision. It's weird and the film uses Mackie's charm to cover over Sam's narrative plot holes. There's no indication that prior to the fall of SHIELD that Sam or the average person knows what HYDRA is. In Iron Man 1, Pepper and Tony don't even really know what SHIELD is. Cap and Nat show up and Sam's like "hell yeah, I'll help you stop a 70 year old Nazi death cult that I've never heard anything about." Sam's someone who needs an extended format to explore why he's done any of the things he's done for the last 6 years.

I figure that in the MCU world until Agent Carter (who didn't figure it out) and Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D. gave us the bigger conspiracy, that Hydra=Nazi. The Nazi's science division. As such case there would be that visceral response of going up against Nazi's. At the end of the movie we see Bucky at the Smithsonian at the Steve Rogers exhibit. Maybe with the emergence of Tony Stark as a next generation superhero or The Avengers in New York there was renewed interest but it is also possible that Steve Rogers  was part George Washington, part Audie Murphy, part Lou Gehrig... in any case an American hero for all growing up post WWII

Edited May 28, 2018 by Raja

[Kel Varnsen]

8 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

the first half of season 1 of Luke Cage is fantastic. That's got to be at least 40 really good hours of TV.

I didn't think the first half of Luke Cage was that great. I mean Alfre Woodard and Mahershala Ali really did elevate the material but the actor who plays Cage was kind of boring, and as I said his powers did make for boring fight scenes. Plus since he couldn’t be killed for the most part and after Doc was  killed he didn't really have anyone close to him to threaten, the bad guys weren't much of a threat. I did like that they went after his reputation and tried to ruin public opinion of him, wish they had explored that more then dumbass shoot outs that only ruined his clothes. But yea once his stupid half brother showed up it got much worse. That final fight where he was wearing a knock off laser tag suit was ridiculous.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

8 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Cap and Nat show up and Sam's like "hell yeah, I'll help you stop a 70 year old Nazi death cult that I've never heard anything about." Sam's someone who needs an extended format to explore why he's done any of the things he's done for the last 6 years.

Just nitpicking a little: Cap and Nat show up at Sam's house and tell him that everyone they know is trying to kill them. Steve didn't even know Sam wasn't a pilot until he showed them the pictures of him in his Falcon gear, but I think Sam saying that Captain America needing his help was a good enough reason to get back into it. Cap having his own exhibit in a famous museum means he was already well-established as a hero, someone total strangers look up to, like that waitress in The Avengers after the New York fight, and she never even exchanged words with him.

[Wynterwolf]

8 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

You have to hand wave away that Sam must be a big enough Cap fan that he's read extensively about him that he would follow him into battle because textually there is nothing in the film justifying the decision.

There's also the on screen dynamic shown between CE's Steve Rogers and AM's Sam... between that and how AM played his part, that wasn't a stretch for me to interpret from what we saw on screen.  It made absolute sense to me.  That is part of what I love about those movies, it's the combination of the overarching story (and history from the other movies), the scenes the directors chose to show to tell those stories, and the chemistry/dynamic between the characters that we see on screen.  Plus, I often get a great deal of enjoyment from seeing point A and point B and then considering many potential ways for getting from point A to point B.  Not everyone enjoys doing that, but for me it's a big part of what elevated these movies into 'favorite' territory, because the story between the lines was just as good as the one I saw on screen.  

[HunterHunted]

On 5/27/2018 at 8:34 AM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Just nitpicking a little: Cap and Nat show up at Sam's house and tell him that everyone they know is trying to kill them. Steve didn't even know Sam wasn't a pilot until he showed them the pictures of him in his Falcon gear, but I think Sam saying that Captain America needing his help was a good enough reason to get back into it.

That just underscores my point. Mackie's charm and CE and AM's chemistry is so strong that viewers can overlook how underwritten the Steve and Sam relationship is. Steve shows up at Sam's place, but doesn't even know that Sam is a pararescue pilot even though that's how Sam actually introduces himself after the run.

Eh. Captain America was a war hero and fought the Chitauri during the Avengers. Prior to Winter Soldier, Alexander Pierce looked good on paper too. He had a long history working for the U.S. government, was on the World Security Council, turned down a Nobel Peace Prize, and at some point became a member of HYDRA. In a real world example, Chris Kyle was a military hero was a bit of a fabulist when it came to his personal exploits. I just don't know if Sam would be so quick to join when on paper both sides looked unassailable, especially because Cap had no receipts to present to Sam.

Furthermore, there's a healthy strain of rightfully earned paranoia about the government in the Black community. From Night Doctors (Tuskegee Airmen experiments and Henrietta Lacks) to the FBI attempting to blackmail MLK Jr. to commit suicide and even law enforcement sending in officers and agents into activist groups to further radicalize and entrap them. People in the military and law enforcement tend to be more conservative than the mainstream and Sam likely is too. That being said, Sam probably has a solid bit of paranoia that could have shaken out either way--he could have believed that there was a grand conspiracy in the government or he could have believed that government was trying to harass  or entrap him. It's a little weird that Sam doesn't get to voice a little skepticism or even support to Cap about fully believing that the government is capable of perpetrating great wrongs against its citizens. And maybe if there was maybe more than just Nate Moore at Marvel to provide a Black perspective, we might have seen Sam get to express that.

Quote

Cap having his own exhibit in a famous museum means he was already well-established as a hero, someone total strangers look up to, like that waitress in The Avengers after the New York fight, and she never even exchanged words with him.

The Smithsonian is filled with tourists and school children. There is no way that an adult from the DMV area would be familiar with the Captain America exhibit outside of escorting a tourist or child on a field trip. And the waitress looked up to Cap because he personally saved her life.

Edited May 29, 2018 by HunterHunted

[benteen]

5 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I didn't think the first half of Luke Cage was that great. I mean Alfre Woodard and Mahershala Ali really did elevate the material but the actor who plays Cage was kind of boring, and as I said his powers did make for boring fight scenes. Plus since he couldn’t be killed for the most part and after Doc was  killed he didn't really have anyone close to him to threaten, the bad guys weren't much of a threat. I did like that they went after his reputation and tried to ruin public opinion of him, wish they had explored that more then dumbass shoot outs that only ruined his clothes. But yea once his stupid half brother showed up it got much worse. That final fight where he was wearing a knock off laser tag suit was ridiculous.

The problem I have with Mike Colter is that he has exactly one facial expression.  He has the same look on his face when he's happy, when he's angry, when he's confused, when he's thinking, etc.  He literally can't seem to make another facial expression.  He does tend to shine when he is working off of his female co-stars but he is limited as an actor and I don't know why the critics gush over him.

Edited May 27, 2018 by benteen

[Wynterwolf]

47 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

The Smithsonian is filled with tourists and school children. There is no way that an adult from the DMV area would be familiar with the Captain America exhibit outside of escorting a tourist or child on a field trip.

Sam knew exactly who Steve was when Steve lapped him several times during their run when they first met, and he went out of his way to connect with him on a personal level, veteran to veteran.  I don't disagree that the storytelling relies heavily on the emotional connection portrayed between the two characters by the actors themselves.  But what you see as an underwritten bug, I see as a wonderful 'show don't tell' feature.  Mileage will definitely vary a lot on this.  

eta:

Quote

Captain America was a war hero

... with a racially diverse elite squad at a time when that was an extremely rare thing.  

Edited May 27, 2018 by Wynterwolf

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Wynterwolf said:

. with a racially diverse elite squad at a time when that was an extremely rare thing.  

In our world that was a rare thing. But a world where the flying car was invented in the 1940's and vibranium is a thing is not our world.

[stealinghome]

Quote

The Smithsonian is filled with tourists and school children. There is no way that an adult from the DMV area would be familiar with the Captain America exhibit outside of escorting a tourist or child on a field trip. And the waitress looked up to Cap because he personally saved her life.

Why would Sam need to have gone to the Smithsonian to know who Steve is and look up to him, though? I've always thought the Marvel movies have set Captain America up as a cultural icon that pretty much everyone in the US adored, and I imagine that respect for Steve would be particularly strong in the military. (Didn't Coulson say at some point that he was inspired by Cap as a kid? He's got the trading cards and everything!) Sure, the general public thought Steve was dead until his reemergence in The Avengers, but Steve was making propaganda films--and then real battlefield films--that were shipped home for the American public to see in TFA. Coulson's got the trading cards. Howard apparently talked about him pretty openly. There was a radio show about him, as we see in Agent Carter. Etc. It's not like Steve's existence or his deeds were ever a secret. I've always gotten the sense that "Captain America" was An American Icon(tm) just like, say, George Washington. The living embodiment of the Greatest Generation, standing for Patriotism and Truth and Right and all that jazz. Especially as Sam is a vet, I don't see it as a stretch to think that he would know who Steve Rogers/Captain America is, believe in what Steve stands for, and therefore help Steve when Steve asks for his help on a mission that, if unsuccessful, means a lot of people will die. I wager most vets, if you asked for their help and said a lot of people could die, would help out. (Especially because Sam's "Captain America needs my help? I'm in" is set up as a precursor to all the SHIELD agents who don't do what HYDRA wants later in the film. "Captain's orders" and all that. One of the points of TWS is that people trust that Steve does the right thing when the chips are down, even when they've never met him personally. Steve as inspirational icon--and how he struggles with being that inspirational icon--is woven into the film.)

Plus, it's been a while since I've seen it, but I remember thinking that Sam was so empathetic with Steve in part because he was going through a similar personal crisis, just a little bit more muted. I think Sam was looking for a way to get back into the field that wouldn't remind him of his dead partner; he still wanted to make a difference, hence the work at the VA, but couldn't go back to doing what he had been doing. Working with Steve gave him a new way to feel like he was actively making the world a better place.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, stealinghome said:

I've always gotten the sense that "Captain America" was An American Icon(tm) just like, say, George Washington. The living embodiment of the Greatest Generation, standing for Patriotism and Truth and Right and all that jazz.

In TFA, Schmidt tells Cap "I'm a great fan of your films!" and while it was likely meant as mockery it's a sign of just how far the story of Captain America had spread. One of the best bits of The Dark World is Loki disguising himself as Steve and being like, "Want to talk about truth, justice and the American way? Though this uniform is a little tight."

Not that Steve doesn't tend to lecture, because he does. Which just makes the final act of Civil War more annoying, because I don't think it's extreme or even out of line to expect Rogers to follow the moral code he spent so much time before that shoving in everybody else's face. That the movie has to teeter towards making Tony a murderer just to keep Steve's hands clean as far as concealing the truth about the Starks tells me that Tony isn't anywhere near as adored by the franchise as some might think.

[Bruinsfan]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

In our world that was a rare thing. But a world where the flying car was invented in the 1940's and vibranium is a thing is not our world.

I think Agent Carter and Black Panther demonstrated clearly that discrimination and the various -isms have been just as much a part of the MCU's history as our own.

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Bruinsfan said:

I think Agent Carter and Black Panther demonstrated clearly that discrimination and the various -isms have been just as much a part of the MCU's history as our own.

On the other hand there is  The First Avenger, for years I have been saying failing to show Steve Rogers fighting Jim Crow at home as well as non racist Nazis in Hydra was the biggest error made by the MCU.

, The SSR camp was fully integrated along with  the USO Tour audiences and  army regimental base in Italy. The only nod to race in the film was the Japanese American Howling Commando having to explain that he was from Stockton, presumably California and not some Japanese prisoner taken to Europe by the not Nazi Hydra. Then in Agent Carter's first season we had Asian federal SSR agents, along black club owners making a pass at an undercover Agent Carter while his white mooks just stood there and giggled all again with no mention of race. The second season of Agent Carter when they wanted to tell a race story was when the white washing of American's Jim Crow history ended as police and others in Los Angeles could not believe that there was a colored or was he described as a Negro scientist.

 

From there by the MCU timeline  you have to go to Nick Fury making a crack alluding to driving while black before Hydra opened fire on him in The Winter Soldier , Luke Cage and then the view from Eric Killmonger in Black Panther for race again to matter in the MCU, while it didn't from Agents of SHIELD to Ultron.  Now Cloak and Dagger at least looks to build upon Black Panther, but then it comes out in an era where interracial relationships are on every show where as if it were made 15 years ago the lead couple would be a rare thing  on TV if they have reached sexual activity and are not just virginal boyfriend and girlfriend kids.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Raja

[Wynterwolf]

Apparently TPTB believed that they were showing and dealing with the systemic racism of the time in Agent Carter.  

[Raja]

10 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Apparently TPTB believed that they were showing and dealing with the systemic racism of the time in Agent Carter.  

In season 2 of Agent Carter. 8 years into the MCU, and 2 year after The Winter Soldier when someone thought we went to Disney and left these potential stories out

[benteen]

Well, the fact that Hydra was the enemy of World War 2 that the allies fought against proves that the Marvel Universe is a fantasy land.  I wanted to see Cap fight Nazis in The First Avenger, not the most ineffective group of villains since the stormtroopers (though Hydra was used really well in The Winter Soldier).

[VCRTracking]

On 5/27/2018 at 5:08 PM, Raja said:

In season 2 of Agent Carter. 8 years into the MCU, and 2 year after The Winter Soldier when someone thought we went to Disney and left these potential stories out

 

3 hours ago, benteen said:

Well, the fact that Hydra was the enemy of World War 2 that the allies fought against proves that the Marvel Universe is a fantasy land.  I wanted to see Cap fight Nazis in The First Avenger, not the most ineffective group of villains since the stormtroopers (though Hydra was used really well in The Winter Soldier).

The Allies fought the Nazis but Cap and his squad specifically focused on stopping Red Skull's Hydra faction working within Nazi-occupied Europe.

My thing is that if Cap was directly fighting Nazi forces, then the war would have been over sooner. He would have liberated concentration camps and save millions of people. In the MCU (I assume) the Holocaust happened just as in real life. So there had to be as big a threat to occupy him while the regular troops fought the Germans.

On 5/27/2018 at 4:18 PM, Raja said:

The only nod to race in the film was the Japanese American Howling Commando having to explain that he was from Stockton, presumably California and not some Japanese prisoner taken to Europe by the not Nazi Hydra.

He's from Fresno, ace!

On 5/27/2018 at 3:25 PM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

That the movie has to teeter towards making Tony a murderer just to keep Steve's hands clean as far as concealing the truth about the Starks tells me that Tony isn't anywhere near as adored by the franchise as some might think.

The movie was written and directed by the same people who made the latest one where Cap calls Tony's "Earth's best defender"!  I think they love writing Tony because he is such a complex character with so many layers.  The Russo Brothers admitted they weren't big Cap fans before they made Winter Soldier because he was too "square".

[Athena]

If you wish to discuss gender, race, ethnicity, and LGBT issues in the Marvel universe, we have a new Social Analysis thread for the Superhero genre of films in Everything Else Movies. Thanks!

[stealinghome]

2 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

The movie was written and directed by the same people who made the latest one where Cap calls Tony's "Earth's best defender"!  I think they love writing Tony because he is such a complex character with so many layers.  The Russo Brothers admitted they weren't big Cap fans before they made Winter Soldier because he was too "square".

I still kind of think the Russo Brothers aren't big Steve fans, to be honest. Or rather, it seems to me that they're way more interested in a number of other characters than they are in him.

[Jeebus Cripes]

10 hours ago, stealinghome said:

I still kind of think the Russo Brothers aren't big Steve fans, to be honest. Or rather, it seems to me that they're way more interested in a number of other characters than they are in him.

That's a shame because Steve is the heart and soul of the MCU as far as I'm concerned. This is coming from someone who has been a comic fan since the age of 5 and who used to regularly roast Captain America for being corny. Chris Evans' performance has made the character so compelling to me, and quite frankly, his death will be the one that hits me straight in the feels. I will be a total mess if he dies in the next film. I cried for Peter Parker, but I will straight up act a fool and embarrass myself for Steve Rogers in front of a large room of people. That's saying something. 

Edited May 30, 2018 by Jeebus Cripes

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

That's a shame because Steve is the heart and soul of the MCU as far as I'm concerned. This is coming from someone who has been a comic fan since the age of 5 and who used to regularly roast Captain America for being corny. Chris Evans' performance has made the character so compelling to me, and quite frankly, his death will be the one that hits me straight in the feels. I will be a total mess if he dies in the next film. I cried for Peter Parker, but I will straight up act a fool and embarrass myself for Steve Rogers in front of a large room of people. That's saying something. 

I still get emotional in the scene in CA:TFA where Tommy Lee Jones' colonel throws the fake grenade, everybody runs but Steve jumps on it, yelling "Everybody get away! Get back!"

[Jeebus Cripes]

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

I still get emotional in the scene in CA:TFA where Tommy Lee Jones' colonel throws the fake grenade, everybody runs but Steve jumps on it, yelling "Everybody get away! Get back!"

Yes! That scene tells you everything you need to know about Steve Rogers. I had nothing but love and respect for him from that point on. 

[Wynterwolf]

Chris Evans definitely elevated the character to something well beyond the page.  I remember being annoyed initially by the casting, but now I can't imagine anyone else in the role.  And hey, I'm totally fine if he 'dies' for a little while, because I know he won't stay that way.  ;-)

[benteen]

7 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

Chris Evans definitely elevated the character to something well beyond the page.  I remember being annoyed initially by the casting, but now I can't imagine anyone else in the role.  And hey, I'm totally fine if he 'dies' for a little while, because I know he won't stay that way.  ;-)

I was annoyed too when he was casted.  I enjoyed him as Johnny Storm in the Human Torch but I had seem him play pretty much the same character in another movie and I thought that was the only kind of character he was capable of playing.  It's always nice when you can be proven wrong like that.

[Smad]

17 hours ago, stealinghome said:

I still kind of think the Russo Brothers aren't big Steve fans, to be honest. Or rather, it seems to me that they're way more interested in a number of other characters than they are in him.

Huh that's weird. There are just as many people thinking they love Cap too much. Just the fact that they make him way too powerful for what he is supposed to be, IMO speaks to the fact that they love Cap.

[festivus]

7 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

That's a shame because Steve is the heart and soul of the MCU as far as I'm concerned. This is coming from someone who has been a comic fan since the age of 5 and who used to regularly roast Captain America for being corny. Chris Evans' performance has made the character so compelling to me, and quite frankly, his death will be the one that hits me straight in the feels. I will be a total mess if he dies in the next film. I cried for Peter Parker, but I will straight up act a fool and embarrass myself for Steve Rogers in front of a large room of people. That's saying something. 

I know. I never thought that Captain America would be my favorite when this whole thing started but here we are.