The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[Perfect Xero]

3 hours ago, Dandesun said:

274 deaths? That's it?! In three separate occasions?! SERIOUSLY?

How did I not know that before?

Go fuck yourself, General Ross! You too, Tony! Or get some therapy and deal with your shit. But a million billion fuck yous at Ross. 

177 innocent people died in Sokovia as the result of a problem created by the Avengers.

11 more died in Lagos after the Avengers failed to alert local authorities and engaged in an unauthorized op in a crowded city because they wanted to catch Crossbones.

How many deaths do the Avengers get to cause before they deserve to be taken to task for it?

[Which Tyler]

14 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Yeah, he sincerely believed he had fulfilled his purpose, and fulfilled what he had promised to do when he agreed to the serum but then... "oh no, you're not done yet."  And I think Sam is really the only one that gets it from that perspective.  

Of course, Sam is also the only other person who was in the military, finished his career there, and then got back involved again

[Dandesun]

14 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

177 innocent people died in Sokovia as the result of a problem created by the Avengers.

11 more died in Lagos after the Avengers failed to alert local authorities and engaged in an unauthorized op in a crowded city because they wanted to catch Crossbones.

How many deaths do the Avengers get to cause before they deserve to be taken to task for it?

Don't forget New York and DC because Ross was very adamant that was a problem.

As far as oversight, well, the World Security Council who was SHIELD's oversight was seconds away from making the death count in New York to over 20 million people. And Project Insight was seconds away from killing 800,000 in one go.

As for Sokovia, I'm inclined to agree with the 'How It Should Have Ended' bit where it was all 'Oh, the robot you created caused all that trouble. A robot you created without telling any of the rest of us, by the way. Maybe you're the one who needs oversight.'

It's not that the loss of life doesn't matter, it's that each of those situations could have been so much worse. Oversight isn't a bad idea in and of itself but putting said oversight into the hands of people who would not have made anything better isn't the answer. And seriously, General Ross?!

[Spartan Girl]

14 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

177 innocent people died in Sokovia as the result of a problem created by the Avengers.

11 more died in Lagos after the Avengers failed to alert local authorities and engaged in an unauthorized op in a crowded city because they wanted to catch Crossbones.

How many deaths do the Avengers get to cause before they deserve to be taken to task for it?

Ross was NEVER held accountable for his actions and all the casualties Abomination caused.  So he doesn't get the right to judge them.

Here's hoping Thanos gets rid of him for us.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Spartan Girl

[Wynterwolf]

5 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

Oversight isn't a bad idea in and of itself but putting said oversight into the hands of people who would not have made anything better isn't the answer. And seriously, General Ross?!

And there were no safeguards for the people who would have been expected to sign that document and be judged by it.  There is a saying in the disability community, "nothing about us, without us" and Tony (presumably by himself, based on how the conversation with the other Avengers went), was not an adequate representative for the Avengers, as a group.  A genuine agreement between all affected parties would have been an appropriate thing, but Ross had a very clear agenda and Tony's guilt complex, and other (mostly well-intentioned) peoples' biases, fears and misinformation, allowed him to push it through.  

[ChelseaNH]

14 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

11 more died in Lagos after the Avengers failed to alert local authorities and engaged in an unauthorized op in a crowded city because they wanted to catch Crossbones.

Crossbones, who was stealing a biological weapon, and brought a bomb to a heist.  Any operation to take him out would always carry the risk of casualties, because that's just who he is.  So why is the collateral damage all on the Avengers?

[benteen]

1 hour ago, Dandesun said:

Don't forget New York and DC because Ross was very adamant that was a problem.

As far as oversight, well, the World Security Council who was SHIELD's oversight was seconds away from making the death count in New York to over 20 million people. And Project Insight was seconds away from killing 800,000 in one go.

As for Sokovia, I'm inclined to agree with the 'How It Should Have Ended' bit where it was all 'Oh, the robot you created caused all that trouble. A robot you created without telling any of the rest of us, by the way. Maybe you're the one who needs oversight.'

It's not that the loss of life doesn't matter, it's that each of those situations could have been so much worse. Oversight isn't a bad idea in and of itself but putting said oversight into the hands of people who would not have made anything better isn't the answer. And seriously, General Ross?!

About as ridiculous as Ross being named Secretary of State and lecturing The Avengers on destruction is The Avengers getting any kind of blame for New York.  It was Loki who infiltrated a SHIELD facility and stole a powerful alien artifact that SHIELD secretary had and was doing experiments with.   As mentioned, you had the "World Security Council" fire a nuke at NYC that would have killed everyone there and it was only The Avengers who stopped it. 

Getting blamed for taking down those helicarriers in The Winter Soldier is even more ridiculous.  SHIELD and by extension the US government allowed themselves to be infiltrated by a long-dead Nazi science organization, which took them over and was planning to wipe out over 20 million people in a matter of seconds.  Really, the government is going to complain because Cap and company broke a few of their toys?

The key ingredient here.  SHIELD.  A government agency that was corrupted by Hydra and reckless with alien objects that they did not understand.  You want to blame someone for New York and DC, blame them and blame the government.

The Avengers definitely deserved criticism and blame for Sokovia and Lagos. 

Edited January 30, 2018 by benteen

[scriggle]

15 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

177 innocent people died in Sokovia as the result of a problem created by the Avengers Tony Stark

Fixed that for you. ;-)

[stealinghome]

Quote

Oversight isn't a bad idea in and of itself but putting said oversight into the hands of people who would not have made anything better isn't the answer. And seriously, General Ross?!

Exactly. This is why CACW is a fundamentally stupid movie--in the interest of creating an (artificial) conflict, both sides were forced to hold to the most extreme version of their position with no room for nuance or shades of gray or even a real suggestion that there could have been a middle ground. When literally everyone on this message board can come up with the obvious middle ground answer, you just make your characters look bad when they don't get there themselves.

But then Marvel wouldn't have a movie with "drama" (drama in quotation marks because a) most of the people who fought each other either didn't even know each other or actively disliked each other, so I don't really care that they fought, and b) there will be no lasting even quasi-realistic consequences to the conflict, so it's hard to care about it).

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, stealinghome said:

This is why CACW is a fundamentally stupid movie

**looks at news**  IDK, frankly what they did seems quite plausible to me.  

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, scriggle said:

Fixed that for you. ;-)

Banner helped him.

[VCRTracking]

As the new trailer for Ant-man and the Wasp showed, there were repercussions for Scott when he joined Team Cap. He's placed under house arrest by the Feds and Hank and his daughter had to go on the run, I presume for just associating with him. Hawkeye probably had it easier since his family and their location was already secret.

[stealinghome]

Well, Tony knows, but I really hope he wouldn’t stoop so low as to betray the location of Clint’s family. That would be a super dick move even by Tony’s standards. 

[Bruinsfan]

21 hours ago, wingster55 said:

It's odd, because in the first Avengers, didn't Banner say that he could control the Hulk because he was always angry? When and why did that change?

Well, he could trigger the transformation into the Hulk at will, which really isn't the same thing as controlling him. Luckily the Battle of New York provided plenty of targets to focus the Hulk's anger on, and seeing the rest of the Avengers fighting the same targets and treating him as a comrade-in-arms rather than a threat to be stopped probably did wonders for engaging his loyalties—correct me if I'm wrong, but until that point hadn't Betty Ross been the sole person who didn't react to him with with fear or hostility while in Hulk form?

[scriggle]

38 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

Well, Tony knows, but I really hope he wouldn’t stoop so low as to betray the location of Clint’s family. That would be a super dick move even by Tony’s standards. 

But he did when he was talking to Clint in the raft. Tony brought up Clint's family, outing their existence to Ross.

[Perfect Xero]

5 hours ago, Dandesun said:

Don't forget New York and DC because Ross was very adamant that was a problem.

New York and DC are specifically brought up in the movie to frame things in a way that is favorable to Steve. There's no reason for Ross to start out talking about New York and DC when Sokovia and Lagos are the real issues, it's a trick to mitigate the actual responsibility of the Avengers for the other deaths, as is Ross being the one to deliver it.

5 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

Crossbones, who was stealing a biological weapon, and brought a bomb to a heist.  Any operation to take him out would always carry the risk of casualties, because that's just who he is.  So why is the collateral damage all on the Avengers?

Because they didn't share information with the Nigerian government and ran an illegal operation of foreign soil where they engaged a dangerous lunatic with a bomb strapped to his chest in the middle of a crowded city.

3 hours ago, scriggle said:

Fixed that for you. ;-)

It's on Tony on a personal level (and Bruce and Wanda), but the thing is that you can't fail to reign a member of your group in (allowing him unsupervised access to dangerous alien technology), then have them continue on as part of the team/primary source of funding for the team even after they screw up with it and get a bunch of people killed, and then not take on the full responsibility as an organization for what your member did.

If Tony needs oversight and the team fails to provide it, then the entire team needs oversight because they're showing that they can't be trusted to police themselves.

[Dandesun]

19 minutes ago, scriggle said:

But he did when he was talking to Clint in the raft. Tony brought up Clint's family, outing their existence to Ross.

I wonder about that, though. Tony did go to the Raft to try to get some information on where Steve was headed because he, at that point, realized that Bucky wasn't responsible for the UN explosion and General Ross had no interest in pursuing the truth as to who was. So I always felt that Tony probably did something to screw with the surveillance at the Raft and, therefore, Clint's family remained hidden.

And if they didn't, I imagine Natasha got wind of it and did something about it.

[scriggle]

4 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

I wonder about that, though. Tony did go to the Raft to try to get some information on where Steve was headed because he, at that point, realized that Bucky wasn't responsible for the UN explosion and General Ross had no interest in pursuing the truth as to who was. So I always felt that Tony probably did something to screw with the surveillance at the Raft and, therefore, Clint's family remained hidden.

And if they didn't, I imagine Natasha got wind of it and did something about it.

Nope. Tony only messed up the surveillance when talking to Sam. He explicitly says it's safe to talk.

[stealinghome]

Quote

If Tony needs oversight and the team fails to provide it, then the entire team needs oversight because they're showing that they can't be trusted to police themselves.

This is one of the reasons I've found the MCU less compelling post-Age of Ultron--no one on the team holds anyone else (by which I mean Tony, and to a lesser degree Bruce relative to Ultron) responsible for anything they did while a member of the team, and nothing anyone does seems to have long-lasting repercussions on relationships. This time though, it's tilted in Tony's favor, because the movies want us to keep cheering for Tony/RDJ, so he is rarely held truly accountable for anything by characters that actually matter. Not only does the team let him off the hook for Ultron--which is ridiculous enough in and of itself--Team Cap lets him off the hook for all the events of CACW (and no one on either side points out that he broke the team up)! Like, the fuck is that?! If we're talking narrative tilts, that's a huge one from the writers. "Tony did something that is unforgivable...but we'll have Steve forgive him anyway so fans will still like Tony!"

Quote

But he did when he was talking to Clint in the raft. Tony brought up Clint's family, outing their existence to Ross.

To be fair, though, knowing that Clint's family exists and knowing where they are are two different things. Though I really like the headcanon that Natasha made sure the Bartons were safe once she went on the run.

[Dandesun]

9 minutes ago, scriggle said:

Nope. Tony only messed up the surveillance when talking to Sam. He explicitly says it's safe to talk.

I stand corrected. Dammit, Tony...

But I'll stick with the Natasha theory. That woman gets shit done. No way she was going to leave Laura and the kids out to dry.

[ChelseaNH]

16 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

22 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

Crossbones, who was stealing a biological weapon, and brought a bomb to a heist.  Any operation to take him out would always carry the risk of casualties, because that's just who he is.  So why is the collateral damage all on the Avengers?

Because they didn't share information with the Nigerian government and ran an illegal operation of foreign soil where they engaged a dangerous lunatic with a bomb strapped to his chest in the middle of a crowded city.

So Crossbones didn't commit murder; the Avengers did.

[Perfect Xero]

8 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

So Crossbones didn't commit murder; the Avengers did.

The Avengers doing wrong things in their pursuit of Crossbones does not absolve Crossbones in any way. Crossbones killed 11 people and broke numerous other laws. The Avengers had advanced knowledge of his location and that he was planning an attack and made a unilateral decision, which they had no legal authority to make, that the chance to capture Crossbones was worth putting the lives of the people in Lagos at risk. That is also wrong. They gambled with people's lives and they lost the wager. 

[ChelseaNH]

So when I asked "Why is the collateral damage all on the Avengers?" why didn't you say then that it wasn't all on the Avengers?  That some of it was on Crossbones?

Where would they have had an opportunity to capture a guy who steals a biological weapon without putting lives at risk?

[Wynterwolf]

Also, they had a tip he was in the area and they assumed he was planning 'something', but from the conversation, they didn't know anything more than that, in particular, they didn't know his target, or with any certainty that there was a target.  I agree, they should have had some local authority that they would have notified that they were running an op, but it's hard to say whether that would have changed anything about what happened.  And if they hadn't acted because they didn't have jurisdiction, Crossbones would have acquired a biological weapon.   It was a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of scenario.  

[Perfect Xero]

35 minutes ago, ChelseaNH said:

So when I asked "Why is the collateral damage all on the Avengers?" why didn't you say then that it wasn't all on the Avengers?  That some of it was on Crossbones?

I thought it went without saying that Crossbones, his men, and his employer are responsible for the things he did.

Quote

Where would they have had an opportunity to capture a guy who steals a biological weapon without putting lives at risk?

Ideally you don't let him have the chance to steal the biological weapon in the first place.

[Raja]

7 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I thought it went without saying that Crossbones, his men, and his employer are responsible for the things he did.

Ideally you don't let him have the chance to steal the biological weapon in the first place.

Exactly it is not like Falcon and Captain America had not worked with non enhanced soldiers before. An alerted Nigerian security force doesn't let a small team of mercenaries get the biological weapon out among the citizens that they swore to protect.

[Wynterwolf]

8 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Ideally

It's unfortunate that things are rarely ideal.  

And the team and the set up they had appeared to be working, if Steve's focus hadn't been compromised by Crossbones.  In that scenario, that was the point where things went to shit.... Steve's mistake.  And having any local force there likely wouldn't have changed that, just different people would have been dead.  I think the biggest thing that could have made a difference, is if they did coordinate with a local contact before, they might have been able to do a better target assessment, and been better prepared from that stand point.  But then that brings in whether they had enough intel to convince the local authority that there was a genuine threat, and also the security of the intel itself.  

Edited February 1, 2018 by Wynterwolf

[ChelseaNH]

9 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

10 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

So when I asked "Why is the collateral damage all on the Avengers?" why didn't you say then that it wasn't all on the Avengers?  That some of it was on Crossbones?

I thought it went without saying that Crossbones, his men, and his employer are responsible for the things he did.

Despite being asked about how responsibility is being allocated.  Interesting assumption.

2 hours ago, Raja said:

An alerted Nigerian security force doesn't let a small team of mercenaries get the biological weapon out among the citizens that they swore to protect.

Or they get killed themselves by some determined and experienced bad guys. 

Once the biological weapon is outside the building, it's among the citizens they swore to protect.  They don't have advance warning that the building is the target; how are they supposed to contain the thieves more effectively than Steve's team?

[HunterHunted]

On 1/31/2018 at 10:01 AM, ChelseaNH said:

So Crossbones didn't commit murder; the Avengers did.

17 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

The Avengers doing wrong things in their pursuit of Crossbones does not absolve Crossbones in any way. Crossbones killed 11 people and broke numerous other laws. The Avengers had advanced knowledge of his location and that he was planning an attack and made a unilateral decision, which they had no legal authority to make, that the chance to capture Crossbones was worth putting the lives of the people in Lagos at risk. That is also wrong. They gambled with people's lives and they lost the wager. 

12 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

So when I asked "Why is the collateral damage all on the Avengers?" why didn't you say then that it wasn't all on the Avengers?  That some of it was on Crossbones?

Where would they have had an opportunity to capture a guy who steals a biological weapon without putting lives at risk?

12 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Also, they had a tip he was in the area and they assumed he was planning 'something', but from the conversation, they didn't know anything more than that, in particular, they didn't know his target, or with any certainty that there was a target.  I agree, they should have had some local authority that they would have notified that they were running an op, but it's hard to say whether that would have changed anything about what happened.  And if they hadn't acted because they didn't have jurisdiction, Crossbones would have acquired a biological weapon.   It was a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of scenario.  

 

11 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I thought it went without saying that Crossbones, his men, and his employer are responsible for the things he did.

Ideally you don't let him have the chance to steal the biological weapon in the first place.

 

 

 

No, Crossbones committed murder. The Avengers might be guilty of manslaughter if they were reckless and/or negligent. Here's the real problem; the Avengers weren't operating under color of law. Had they been, there really wouldn't have been a problem. Not every police or military action goes smoothly. There are casualties. Unless the police are grossly negligent, juries usually don't send the officers to prison. The Avengers were not grossly negligent nor would a Nigerian military team be equipped to handle that situation better than the Avengers. Every one of those deaths is on Crossbones.

[Raja]

38 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

No, Crossbones committed murder. The Avengers might be guilty of manslaughter if they were reckless and/or negligent. Here's the real problem; the Avengers weren't operating under color of law. Had they been, there really wouldn't have been a problem. Not every police or military action goes smoothly. There are casualties. Unless the police are grossly negligent, juries usually don't send the officers to prison. The Avengers were not grossly negligent nor would a Nigerian military team be equipped to handle that situation better than the Avengers. Every one of those deaths is on Crossbones.

However they were, or should have been in position to block escape routes and the like if they were just used like the  Howling Commandos or a SHIELD strike team with Captain America once had.

[Perfect Xero]

4 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

Despite being asked about how responsibility is being allocated.  Interesting assumption.

It's not a pie chart where percentages of blame are being passed out. They are both completely responsible for the things that they did or did not do. The Avengers being completely responsible for the results of their decisions and actions does not make Crossbones any less responsible for what he did.

Quote

Or they get killed themselves by some determined and experienced bad guys. 

Once the biological weapon is outside the building, it's among the citizens they swore to protect.  They don't have advance warning that the building is the target; how are they supposed to contain the thieves more effectively than Steve's team?

Maybe the locals say, "So you know that Rumlow is attacking something in these few blocks? Hey the faux CDC is just over there, seems like it might be a high priority target." If they are on alert and in communication with the Avengers then they close off escape routes while team Cap engages at the faux CDC. Maybe they decide to evacuate civilians from the area in the first place and then all Rumlow's bomb does is kill him and cause some property damage.

6 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

It's unfortunate that things are rarely ideal.  

And the team and the set up they had appeared to be working, if Steve's focus hadn't been compromised by Crossbones.  In that scenario, that was the point where things went to shit.... Steve's mistake.  And having any local force there likely wouldn't have changed that, just different people would have been dead.  I think the biggest thing that could have made a difference, is if they did coordinate with a local contact before, they might have been able to do a better target assessment, and been better prepared from that stand point.  But then that brings in whether they had enough intel to convince the local authority that there was a genuine threat, and also the security of the intel itself.  

Rumlow: "Blah blah blah, Bucky."

Steve: "Bucky!?!"

Cop: "Hey, this jerk has a detonator in his hand and is about to set off a bomb and Flagman here is just chatting with him, I'm going to shoot him in the head because my superpower is not caring who Bucky is."

3 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

No, Crossbones committed murder. The Avengers might be guilty of manslaughter if they were reckless and/or negligent. Here's the real problem; the Avengers weren't operating under color of law. Had they been, there really wouldn't have been a problem. Not every police or military action goes smoothly. There are casualties. Unless the police are grossly negligent, juries usually don't send the officers to prison. The Avengers were not grossly negligent nor would a Nigerian military team be equipped to handle that situation better than the Avengers. Every one of those deaths is on Crossbones.

If the Avengers had been authorized to be there by the local government, then there's really no issue. They weren't though. They chose not to loop in the locals because they wanted to use the attack on Lagos as a chance to catch Crossbones rather than warning the locals to maximize the defense of the area. They made a decision that it was okay to put lives at increased risk to achieve their personal mission. That makes them responsible for what happened to those lives.

And, while the movie doesn't say why it's glaring that War Machine and Vision are not on the mission for whatever reason, it's at least possible that the reason that they are not there is that they wouldn't have gone along with an illegal operation (USAF Colonel Rhodes in particular), so alerting the locals and getting their okay would have allowed them to bring one or two of their heaviest hitters who could have made short work of the whole thing.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

So that's why they started serving breakfast all day

[Which Tyler]

18 hours ago, Raja said:

However they were, or should have been in position to block escape routes and the like if they were just used like the  Howling Commandos or a SHIELD strike team with Captain America once had.

They'd also have known the local area better, and known that a biological weapons plant would make a better terrorist target than a random police station. They could also have switched all those civilian scientists with armed professional soldiers, and had a decent chance of sorting all the non-super soldiers themselves; leaving the Steve et al to concentrate on  one guy.

 

Out of interest - I wonder how the US authorities (and populace) would react if someone had direct knowledge of a planned terrorist attack on US soil, but decided not to alert the authorities? I somehow doubt they'd be bending over backwards to excuse, and even thank, the individuals concerned - far more likely to presecute them and either throw them in jail, or an illegal overseas torture camp / jail.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Which Tyler

[Raja]

14 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

So that's why they started serving breakfast all day

It was actually Hank Pym about the time he left SHIELD

[ChelseaNH]

18 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

They are both completely responsible for the things that they did or did not do.

I didn't ask about their actions.  I asked about the collateral damage being "all on the Avengers."  If that's not what you meant, you had an opportunity to clarify.  You didn't.  Now you have.  Better late than never.

18 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Maybe the locals say, "So you know that Rumlow is attacking something in these few blocks? Hey the faux CDC is just over there, seems like it might be a high priority target."

Because the Avengers don't have access to Google Maps.  (Personally, I think it's a plot hole that the team is surprised by Crossbones' target.)

If things are different, things go differently.  Bring in a police presence -- Crossbones notices, and adjusts.  Maybe sets off a bomb in a different location to divert forces from his real target.  He's a smart, experienced mercenary.  He's capable of making contingency plans.  It's all part of running an operation.

[Perfect Xero]

6 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

I didn't ask about their actions.  I asked about the collateral damage being "all on the Avengers."  If that's not what you meant, you had an opportunity to clarify.  You didn't.  Now you have.  Better late than never.

I just interpreted what you meant by "all on the Avengers" differently than what you intended. No worries.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

"In the end, you will always kneel."

[HunterHunted]

I guess I have a weird perspective on the Avengers not looping any Nigerian law enforcement in on Crossbones because I lived in Nigeria. The Lagos police are equally likely to take a bribe from Crossbones and escort him to the facility he wanted to rob and provide an escort for him to the airport. So it's hard for me wrap my brain around a fictional Lagos police being actually helpful.

[Raja]

8 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I guess I have a weird perspective on the Avengers not looping any Nigerian law enforcement in on Crossbones because I lived in Nigeria. The Lagos police are equally likely to take a bribe from Crossbones and escort him to the facility he wanted to rob and provide an escort for him to the airport. So it's hard for me wrap my brain around a fictional Lagos police being actually helpful.

But for a movie that is why we create places like Sokovia. Even in the case where the worldwide SHIELD was heavily Hydra  certain things just are not localized to specific national groups

[Wynterwolf]

16 minutes ago, Raja said:

Even in the case where the worldwide SHIELD was heavily Hydra  certain things just are not localized to specific national groups

But possibility of corruption, or even simple lack of security over the information in that instance (no matter where they chose to place it) is still a reasonably justifiable reason for Team!Cap to be reticent about sharing whatever information they had with the locals (and is something that should have been addressed in the Accords, but didn't appear to be). As I'm understanding the (fictional) circumstances, there was at that point no official protocol in existence for them to follow (which is where the Accords came in later), or conversely, to break.  There was no 'right' course of action for them to take.  There were choices and consequences.  And fallout.  

[Cobalt Stargazer]

51 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

But possibility of corruption, or even simple lack of security over the information in that instance (no matter where they chose to place it) is still a reasonably justifiable reason for Team!Cap to be reticent about sharing whatever information they had with the locals (and is something that should have been addressed in the Accords, but didn't appear to be). As I'm understanding the (fictional) circumstances, there was at that point no official protocol in existence for them to follow (which is where the Accords came in later), or conversely, to break.  There was no 'right' course of action for them to take.  There were choices and consequences.  And fallout.  

And again, it could have been worse. Yes, had Wanda not miscalculated, the situation wouldn't have gotten quite so FUBARed quite so fast, but she was trying to save lives. Including Steve's distracted ass, and that's a general issue - that the Avengers are human and bring their issues to the table even in the field..

[Dandesun]

11 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

But possibility of corruption, or even simple lack of security over the information in that instance (no matter where they chose to place it) is still a reasonably justifiable reason for Team!Cap to be reticent about sharing whatever information they had with the locals (and is something that should have been addressed in the Accords, but didn't appear to be). As I'm understanding the (fictional) circumstances, there was at that point no official protocol in existence for them to follow (which is where the Accords came in later), or conversely, to break.  There was no 'right' course of action for them to take.  There were choices and consequences.  And fallout.  

I've mentioned it before but the MCU has rather established that its leaders tend to be wildly corrupt. Hell, it all started with Iron Man. Obidiah Stane, long time friend and trusted ally... oops, nope, total turncoat working with terrorists. And IM3 had the Vice President of the United States working with terrorists. What was Pierce's position in Winter Soldier? He got called 'Director' a lot but what was he director of? Considering he was working very closely with the World Security Council... pretty damn high up. Senator Gary Shandling was Hydra. We've already talked about General Ross. Hell, I'm half surprised they didn't bring Zola's digitized face in to tell the Avengers that they're really super naughty and need to be kept in check. And Hydra has cels everywhere... that's their whole shtick. 'Cut off one head, two more take it's place.'

That's all part and parcel of the world building they've been doing since, what, 2007? Would things have been better if, maybe, Tony had had another cup of coffee and not completely re-traumatized himself by reliving his last moments with his parents in front of a lecture hall full of people? It's a possibility. I think he still would have been affected but maybe not to the 'OMG, General Ross... please take the wheel... you're an amazing choice to tell the Avengers what to do. I'm absolutely positive that Bruce wouldn't spit directly into my face if he were here right now. I am making great choices!!' extent that he was.

Civil War had a lot of problems. Of course, the source material did too.  Boy howdy, did it.

[tennisgurl]

So, I have a new theory on where the MCU goes in a post Thanos world, especially if they want to add in the new characters that they have the rights to now. So,Thanos gets some of the Infinity Stones, including the Reality Stone, which I think will come into play big time. The heroes try to stop him, but its too late, and tons of people, including a bunch of the good guys, all die horribly. Then, someone (Tony?) gets a hold of the Reality Stone, and when Thanos comes at him, he attempts a Hail Mary to try and destroy Thanos, and tries to escape to the past, to stop this from ever happening, OR he straight up changes reality to get a better chance at defeating Thanos. However, Tony doesn't really realize what he did, so he re-writes reality and ends up on an Alternate Timeline, where the X-Men and the Fantastic Four exist, and have existed the whole time. Hell, if they wanted to, they could merge the X-Men universe, and just say they are now one because INFINITY STONE, so why not? Then, the second Infinity War movie could be about trying to figure out what happened, how this reality works (maybe they start to crumble?), and what to do when Thanos shows up. Then, the MCU heroes and the other, new heroes all fight against Thanos, and then a third, NEW reality appears, where everything in the MCU happened pretty much the way it did in the Prime Universe, but the new heroes exist alongside them now. That way, we can change up the status quo and add in the new properties, while not discarding everything else that happened before. Kind of Crisis on Infinite Marvel Universes. 

This isn't spoilers or anything, just pure speculation. I think it could work, if its done VERY well and they spend a lot of time on it. Or maybe it wouldn't. It would certainly explain why they're so hush hush about the second movie anyway,if its "Infinity War: Reality Sand-which" or something. 

[Dee]

Avengers Assembled: Marvel Cinematic Universe Team Unveils Class Photo

Quote

Marvel Studios’ kickoff of events to commemorate the 10-year anniversary of Marvel Cinematic Universe included a surprise: a class photo featuring more than 80 actors and filmmaker associated with Disney’s money-minting superhero franchise. The pic was shot October 10 in secret at the Atlanta studio where Anthony and Joe Russo were shooting Avengers: Infinity War.

[Dandesun]

Okay, I love the class picture. I love the front square of Evans, Lee, Feige and Downey. I love that even though I really questioned Evans' casting as Cap, he proved me absolutely wrong and is a the major figure of the franchise next to RDJ's Iron Man. I love that they did this before Sebastian Stan got his new movie look (which is akin to a really fucking hot biker that you have extremely ill-advised sex with in the alley behind the bar) and I just love zooming in and focusing on all of this. Although I could identify Paul Rudd even in a small shot. Not even getting a good glimpse of his face I'm like 'Oh, there's Paul Rudd.' Is the way he sits that distinctive? Apparently.

Sidenote: do you know how many drag queens crush HARD on Paul Rudd? Quite a few.

The trio of Samuel L Jackson, Taika Waititi and Jeff Goldblum is so rife with swag I feel infinitely cooler just looking at them. Look at how fucking fierce Angela Basset is! Scarlett's wearing regular non-heeled shoes... I love her for that.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Dandesun

[xaxat]

On 1/26/2018 at 2:50 PM, VCRTracking said:

I love comic book Hawkeye especially in the Matt Fraction series

It's not going to happen, but I would love to see the Fraction/Aja run get the Netlix treatment. 

It was the Netflix Marvel Universe before the Netflix Marvel Universe existed. 

[Spartan Girl]

Glad Emily made the pic. (Yeah, what, Sharon Carter haters?!)

[Dandesun]

27 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Glad Emily made the pic. (Yeah, what, Sharon Carter haters?!)

I was very happy to see her. I may not ship Sharon and Steve (for a lot of reasons, not just the Bucky factor) but she's a part of the MCU.

Speaking of, has anyone been able to find Clark Gregg in the picture?

[JustaPerson]

1 hour ago, Dandesun said:

before Sebastian Stan got his new movie look (which is akin to a really fucking hot biker that you have extremely ill-advised sex with in the alley behind the bar)

Thank you for articulating his new look. I couldn't put it into words.

[anna0852]

On 8/18/2015 at 12:08 AM, anna0852 said:

When it gets close to the time for Avengers: Infinity War  does anyone else want to see some massive photo shoot in EW with all the various movie casts together. Team Thor, Team Iron Man, Team Cap, Team Guardians, Team Ant-Man and the of course our TV tie-ins, Team Shield and Team Agent Carter. Can you imagine getting all that talent into one place at one time?

 

They did something similar for Star Wars (new cast and surviving old cast) when the prequels came out and it was really freaking cool!

I know I'm probably not supposed to quote myself but I asked for that class photo over 2 years ago! Yay! 

We're missing some folks though: Clark Gregg, Michael B Jordon, Lupita Nyongo, Andy Serkis, Martin Freeman and Cate Blanchett

Edited February 8, 2018 by anna0852