The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, stealinghome said:

I’m not as excited about a potential BW film as I would have been a few years ago—it’s just coming 5 years too late, and it feels like Marvel is begrudgingly all “wait women make money? Then I GUESS we can then feature someone other than RDJ or a white guy named Chris as a lead” in response to WW—but I’d definitely still go see it. Pretty much none of the Phase 3 characters interest me, so BW would be the most enticing movie.

Thank you, I'm so glad I don't care about a BW movie.  They should have done that years ago instead of shoehorning her into the role that should have been Sharon Carter's role in Winter Soldier.  And yes, I'm still forever bitter that Sharon Carter got the shaft and was left as nothing more than a punching bag for the Stucky fans in favor of more screentime for ScarJo.

[stealinghome]

Quote

But I don't think Marvel was ever under the impression that female characters can't be successful money-wise, though I'm sure there are those who would argue that they have been. I will say that what strikes me as hilarious is that a BW movie is what people have been clamoring for for X amount of time, and now that we might get it, people are all, "Eh..." How The Last Jedi.

Obviously this is a situation where ymmv, but imo, the proof is in the pudding. There's a reason that Marvel/Disney took a lot of heat for (comparably speaking) not having Black Widow merchandise after Avengers (Rey merchandise after TFA too *cough*), and there's a reason that it took until DC really committed to getting Wonder Woman her own movie for Marvel to get serious about having a female superhero movie of its own. All this while Feige claimed "well, the problem with a Black Widow movie is the SCHEDULE, you see, we just can't put anything else on the SCHEDULE because we can't push back the SCHEDULE"...only to then push back the entire schedule once Marvel got the rights to Spiderman.

As I said above, I think if Marvel had done the Black Widow movie at the right time, excitement would've been much higher for it. But now the film feels like an afterthought, or (by the time a BW movie could theoretically hit the screen) a close-to-a-decade-belated post-WW cash grab, and it's fair for people to have a bad taste in their mouths.

If the movie even happens, which I am still skeptical it will tbh.

[Vera]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Thank you, I'm so glad I don't care about a BW movie.  They should have done that years ago instead of shoehorning her into the role that should have been Sharon Carter's role in Winter Soldier.  And yes, I'm still forever bitter that Sharon Carter got the shaft and was left as nothing more than a punching bag for the Stucky fans in favor of more screentime for ScarJo.

What on earth made it Sharon's role so exclusively? 

Marvel was always going to have a problem with Sharon. People love Peggy, adore her. Them trying to go with a romance for Cap in the very next movie with her niece would have gone over as well as the kiss in CW did. Especially with the Steve/Peggy scenes they did end up having in the movie. There's also the Steve/Bucky contingent to contend with and that would have been present even with a bigger role for Sharon. The decision that Johansson would reprise her role in TWS was made well before they settled on EVC for Sharon. The established characters in Steve, Bucky, Fury, Maria & Nat were always going to take precedence over Sharon.

I'm glad we had Natasha in TWS. Her relationship with Cap (and Fury and Sam) feeds into the shared universe concept. It gave her a depth she wouldn't have had going into AoU. 

 

ETA: I'm also really stoked we're may be finally getting a BW movie. Yes, we've also gotten WW and CM's out next year. More female lead movies, the better. But I hope they go for a WoC lead female next as well.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Vera

[AES13]

I'm excited by the idea; I just hope it doesn't turn out looking like a copy of "Red Sparrow", whose main character seems to have a very similar background to Black Widow's.

I have no idea what the official canon of BW's past is but judging by the movies (and the scads of fanfiction I've read), the film should have Bucky, Hawkeye, Coulson, Fury, and Hill at the very least.  

[stealinghome]

Quote

I'm excited by the idea; I just hope it doesn't turn out looking like a copy of "Red Sparrow", whose main character seems to have a very similar background to Black Widow's.

Yeah, one wonders how much Atomic Blonde/Red Sparrow/Proud Mary/etc. have also convinced Marvel/Disney that a female spy movie is worth trying out. It would be a little ironic if Red Sparrow ends up stealing the thunder that should've been BW's.

[Wynterwolf]

20 minutes ago, AES13 said:

I'm excited by the idea; I just hope it doesn't turn out looking like a copy of "Red Sparrow", whose main character seems to have a very similar background to Black Widow's.

When I saw the trailer for Red Sparrow, I got much more of a La Femme Nikita vibe from it, and that feels a lot different to me than what I think a Black Widow MCU movie would be (particularly since I think the screen writer they've hired is more comedic maybe?)  So while it would have serious themes (and I know they want to experiment with some R rated stuff), that may not be what this would be... but I'm sure a lot of things are going to change in the 2+ years this takes, if it does make it to screen.    

 

eta:

And see, I could totally get behind this...

Edited January 11, 2018 by Wynterwolf

[Raja]

7 hours ago, Vera said:

What on earth made it Sharon's role so exclusively? 

Marvel was always going to have a problem with Sharon. People love Peggy, adore her. Them trying to go with a romance for Cap in the very next movie with her niece would have gone over as well as the kiss in CW did. Especially with the Steve/Peggy scenes they did end up having in the movie. There's also the Steve/Bucky contingent to contend with and that would have been present even with a bigger role for Sharon. The decision that Johansson would reprise her role in TWS was made well before they settled on EVC for Sharon. The established characters in Steve, Bucky, Fury, Maria & Nat were always going to take precedence over Sharon.

 

The source comic story came out years after I stopped reading but from all the chatter around Civil War I am lead to believe that Sharon Carter had a very major role. But then the MCU Civil War did not end like the comic book Civil War.

[Wynterwolf]

Spoiler

Hmmmmm... interesting.     

 

I wonder if this could have something to do with Banner's arc.

[Perfect Xero]

51 minutes ago, Raja said:

The source comic story came out years after I stopped reading but from all the chatter around Civil War I am lead to believe that Sharon Carter had a very major role. But then the MCU Civil War did not end like the comic book Civil War.

Sharon didn't have an important role in Civil War that I can recall. She had a major role in the story the followed in Cap's solo comic.

[Raja]

41 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

Sharon didn't have an important role in Civil War that I can recall. She had a major role in the story the followed in Cap's solo comic.

I thought that was part of the story. Another shared universe as the movie folks are calling it.

[Perfect Xero]

1 minute ago, Raja said:

I thought that was part of the story. Another shared universe as the movie folks are calling it.

I mean, you could say that Avengers: Age of Ultron and Captain America: Civil War are part of the same overarching MCU story, but they're still distinct enough within that that you wouldn't say, for example, that General Ross has a big role in Age of Ultron.

Same deal here, The Death of Captain America follows the events of Civil War and builds off of it, but it's also its own story.

[Danny Franks]

On 12/01/2018 at 3:33 AM, Perfect Xero said:

Sharon didn't have an important role in Civil War that I can recall. She had a major role in the story the followed in Cap's solo comic.

She was a major part of the entire Ed Brubaker run on Captain America, which began with the assassination of the Red Skull, then led into the Winter Soldier storyline. Then Civil War happened, and she took a back seat because Cap was underground, hiding from SHIELD, which she was still a member of.

And then she returned to her prominent role in the Death of Captain America story, which led out of Civil War.

It's been a source of irritation and disappointment to me that the movies took great pains to include all the characters from this seminal comic book run, but used them so haphazardly, and to such limited effect. Different mediums, of course, but Civil War was such a disappointing movie.

[Morrigan2575]

 

??

[dwmarch]

On 29/12/2017 at 1:42 AM, rmontro said:

Excelsior!  Stan always puts on a positive face, but I wonder if he has ever been secretly disappointed with the film versions of any of his creations?  Maybe he's just happy to see his franchises expand, no matter how they come out.

I googled all of his appearances and while he did cameo in Runaways as a limo driver, he is conspicuous by his absence from Inhumans, which he would be justified in finding to be a disappointing property unworthy of his presence.

[rmontro]

10 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

I googled all of his appearances and while he did cameo in Runaways as a limo driver, he is conspicuous by his absence from Inhumans, which he would be justified in finding to be a disappointing property unworthy of his presence.

While I agree Inhumans fell short of its potential, I'm not sure that Stan would have been able to determine that at the point at which he would have been asked to cameo.  I doubt that he is had much involvement at all actually, if any.  Besides, he's made few appearances in the Marvel TV shows that I can recal.

[starri]

On 1/19/2018 at 1:26 AM, rmontro said:

Besides, he's made few appearances in the Marvel TV shows that I can recal.

I don't know if he was ever on Agent Carter, but he was on AoS, and his photo (in costume as a cop) has appeared in all of the Netflix shows.

[Dee]

What's everyone's speculations about potential deaths for the two Infinity War films?

[Raja]

52 minutes ago, starri said:

I don't know if he was ever on Agent Carter, but he was on AoS, and his photo (in costume as a cop) has appeared in all of the Netflix shows.

Stan Lee  was getting a shoe shine next to Howard Stark on Agent Carter 

[Dandesun]

10 hours ago, Dee said:

What's everyone's speculations about potential deaths for the two Infinity War films?

Everybody dies.

I'm going into it that way.

[HunterHunted]

40 minutes ago, Dandesun said:

Everybody dies.

I'm going into it that way.

Except for Dr. Strange because who else will operate the Time Stone to bring everyone back. Unless they come up with some novel uses for the Soul Stone or maybe the Reality Stone. 

On 1/19/2018 at 0:12 AM, dwmarch said:

I googled all of his appearances and while he did cameo in Runaways as a limo driver, he is conspicuous by his absence from Inhumans, which he would be justified in finding to be a disappointing property unworthy of his presence.

One of my favorites is his cameo in Big Hero 6.

[Wynterwolf]

12 hours ago, Dee said:

What's everyone's speculations about potential deaths for the two Infinity War films?

Eh, no one stays dead in a comic universe... 

[bettername2come]

16 hours ago, Dee said:

What's everyone's speculations about potential deaths for the two Infinity War films?

I'm ridiculously paranoid about Peter Parker dying, despite the Spider-Man sequel being set. They just had to make a Miles Morales reference in Homecoming...

[Kel Varnsen]

On 19/01/2018 at 1:26 AM, rmontro said:

While I agree Inhumans fell short of its potential, I'm not sure that Stan would have been able to determine that at the point at which he would have been asked to cameo.  I doubt that he is had much involvement at all actually, if any.  Besides, he's made few appearances in the Marvel TV shows that I can recal.

Stan is 95, so even though he seems to be in good health i can imagine him not wanting to ride a plane to Hawaii just to film a cameo. Plus Stan is a writer at heart and maybe he saw the script and knew it would be bad. Plus his wife did die last year and some googling tells me her death was a few weeks after Inhumans filiming wrapped.

Also I read that when he did the Guardians volume 2 cameo he filmed 4 cameos on the same day, including Dr. Strange and 2 others. Considering that the movies seem to be based in Georgia, it might support that he doesn't do a lot of travel.

23 hours ago, Dee said:

What's everyone's speculations about potential deaths for the two Infinity War films?

My long held speculation was that Cap dies and Tony steps down after they defeat Thanos due to grief over Cap's death. 

[benteen]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Stan is 95, so even though he seems to be in good health i can imagine him not wanting to ride a plane to Hawaii just to film a cameo. Plus Stan is a writer at heart and maybe he saw the script and knew it would be bad. Plus his wife did die last year and some googling tells me her death was a few weeks after Inhumans filiming wrapped.

Also I read that when he did the Guardians volume 2 cameo he filmed 4 cameos on the same day, including Dr. Strange and 2 others. Considering that the movies seem to be based in Georgia, it might support that he doesn't do a lot of travel.

My long held speculation was that Cap dies and Tony steps down after they defeat Thanos due to grief over Cap's death. 

I wouldn't blame Stan for not wanting to be a part of the Inhumans although that probably wasn't the case.  In any event, Stan's cameos are shot ahead of time and inserted into the various Marvel movies and shows.  Several appearances ahead of time in fact.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Takes so little to amuse me:

http://superwhisper.blogspot.com/2016/05/natural-progression.html

[Dandesun]

22 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Takes so little to amuse me:

http://superwhisper.blogspot.com/2016/05/natural-progression.html

It's funny 'cause it's true!

[Vera]

Anyone here read the IW prelude comic? Can it be discussed or does it count as spoilers?

[Wynterwolf]

Just now, Vera said:

Anyone here read the IW prelude comic? Can it be discussed or does it count as spoilers?

I was erring on the side of caution earlier in the IW thread, since it had just been posted, but I don't think it would count as a spoiler now.  And yes, I read it.  :-D  Shuri is my hero.  

[Vera]

Just now, Wynterwolf said:

I was erring on the side of caution earlier in the IW thread, since it had just been posted, but I don't think it would count as a spoiler now.  And yes, I read it.  :-D  Shuri is my hero.  

How awesome is she?! I'm so excited for BP!

Looks like Vision may have also defected from Team IM or at least decided going loco with Wanda was the better option. 

I want to know how Nat met up with Steve and Sam and they decided to continue working together!

[Wynterwolf]

13 hours ago, Vera said:

How awesome is she?! I'm so excited for BP!

Looks like Vision may have also defected from Team IM or at least decided going loco with Wanda was the better option. 

I want to know how Nat met up with Steve and Sam and they decided to continue working together!

Spoiler

Right?!  There was a lot of ground covered in just a few pages.  So Scott and Clint went back to their families, the bit with Vision and Wanda seems to tie in with some of the shots of them in the trailer, so they seem to be setting up housekeeping together.  And re:  Nat - maybe Steve got in touch with her?   But I also have no doubt she could find them if she wanted to.  It seems it covers several months, and it gives a good explanation for why Steve and Bucky won't be in Black Panther.  I'm guessing Steve and Bucky hooked back up with Nat and Sam to chase down more alien tech weapons, after Buck was fixed.  And OH MAN what I wouldn't give for THAT team up to be a solo movie.  And Tony still thinks he has to fix everything by himself.  

Edited January 25, 2018 by Wynterwolf

[stealinghome]

Quote

I'm guessing Steve and Bucky hooked back up with Nat and Sam to chase down more alien tech weapons, after Buck was fixed.  And OH MAN what I wouldn't give for THAT team up to be a solo movie. 

Maybe it can be "Captain America 4: What Really Should Have Been Cap 3!"

[Which Tyler]

9 hours ago, Vera said:

Anyone here read the IW prelude comic? Can it be discussed or does it count as spoilers?

Surely it's as much of a spoiler as talking about the Lord of the Rings, or Game of Thrones books were spoilers for their shows?

Edited January 25, 2018 by Which Tyler

[Wynterwolf]

1 hour ago, Which Tyler said:

Surely it's as much of a spoiler as talking about the Lord of the Rings, or Game of Thrones books were spoilers for their shows?

I honestly can't tell if you're joking or not, but... this doesn't show anything that will happen in Black Panther or Infinity War, it just fills in something that happens 'off screen' before either of those movies take place.  So, not a spoiler for either of those movies, just additional promo information on where everyone has been when those movies start, some of which we've already seen in the trailer.  

[Morrigan2575]

20 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

I honestly can't tell if you're joking or not, but... this doesn't show anything that will happen in Black Panther or Infinity War, it just fills in something that happens 'off screen' before either of those movies take place.  So, not a spoiler for either of those movies, just additional promo information on where everyone has been when those movies start, some of which we've already seen in the trailer.  

I don't think it's a joke, the standing rules on most boards here is that book/comics are spoilers for the show and, limited to specific threads on that board. Examples, Game of Thrones, Walking Dead, The Alienist, all of the DC CW Shows, etc

I have no idea if this should be considered a spoiler or not, or if the Movie section has different rules than the TV side but, I do think it's a valid question to be asked and one only the mods can answer.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I don't think it's a joke the standing rupes on most boards here is thst book or comics are spoilers for the show and limited to specific threads on that board. Examples, Game of Thrones, Walking Dead, The Alienist, all of the DC CW Shows, etc

I have no idea if this should be considered a spoiler or not, or if the Movie section has different rules than the TV size but, I do think it's a valid question to be asked and one only the mods can answer.

Got it, thank you.  I guess I view it more as promo material, but if someone can get a determination from a Mod, that would be great.  

[Dee]

Are there any spoilers/indication of Bucky's status re: BP/IW? All the stills/promos I've seen of #TeamCap, have been of Nat/Sam/Steve.

[Wynterwolf]

27 minutes ago, Dee said:

Are there any spoilers/indication of Bucky's status re: BP/IW? All the stills/promos I've seen of #TeamCap, have been of Nat/Sam/Steve.

Spoiler

It shows that Shuri has figured out how to free Bucky from the trigger words without affecting his memories, but we don't see it happen.  Then T'Challa says that Steve will be happy to hear that, and it shows Steve, Sam and Natasha thwarting a terrorist cell from acquiring Chitauri tech infused weapons.

  Then the next point we have is seeing Bucky (with the new arm) and Steve in Wakanda in the IW promo.  

Edited January 25, 2018 by Wynterwolf

[Dee]

Spoiler

It just seems weird that if Bucky is truly free of his triggers he would logically join Nat/Sam/Steve on their missions.

In the IW promo Sam & Nat are fighting in Wakanda, along with Steve, T'Challa, Bucky & the rest of the Avengers too but SS hasn't appeared in any post-cryo stills/promos.

So Bucky's status between Shuri fixing him and the big Wakandan battle is kind of a weird blank.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Dee

[Which Tyler]

2 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

I honestly can't tell if you're joking or not, but... this doesn't show anything that will happen in Black Panther or Infinity War, it just fills in something that happens 'off screen' before either of those movies take place.  So, not a spoiler for either of those movies, just additional promo information on where everyone has been when those movies start, some of which we've already seen in the trailer.  

Not a joke at all. I've no idea if something I haven't seen contains spoilers for something I haven't seen yet. However, I seeing a reference to an IW comic in advance of the IW film coming out... It seems a valid question.

Source material and supplemental source material is typically considered spoiler territory though (your follow-up post suggests that this may well be supplemental source material). If it's information about thing that happen to a character since we last saw them - then I for one would classify that as a spoiler.

 

As for adverts and promos, I don't want him them, and keep to this generic thread, rather than the film-specific threads when we get to that stage.

[Wynterwolf]

9 minutes ago, Dee said:

  Hide contents

It just seems weird that if Bucky is truly free of his triggers he would logically join Nat/Sam/Steve on their missions.

In the IW promo Sam & Nat are fighting in Wakanda, along with Steve, T'Challa, Bucky & the rest of the Avengers too but SS hasn't appeared in any post-cryo stills/promos.

So Bucky's status between Shuri fixing him and the big Wakandan battle is kind of a weird blank.

SS made a comment at the ACE convention that Bucky was trying to figure out who to trust.  And AM said that Sam was in Jamaica relaxing.  

Spoiler

The bit in the comic that shows Steve, Sam and Natasha on their covert mission (with Steve having the beard) is before T'Challa (presumably) tells him about the breakthrough for Bucky, so I think you could go either way that Bucky might join them, or that Steve and Bucky might be off on their own and he/they won't hook up with Sam and Nat (et. al.) until later in IW.  Either are plausible, I think. 

Edited January 25, 2018 by Wynterwolf

[Wynterwolf]

13 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

then I for one would classify that as a spoiler.

Fair enough.  My speculation is that this material is mainly to explain why Bucky likely won't be mentioned in Black Panther, because he's probably no longer there when the events of that movie take place.  It's more of an epilogue to Captain America: Civil War. 

Edited January 25, 2018 by Wynterwolf

[Athena]

In general, comics and supplemental info would be considered spoilers since info could show up in the movies as canon. If enough posters want to discuss the supplemental comics here without tags, then we could allow it without spoiler tags. Until then, tagging is safest. Thank you. 

[Bruinsfan]

On 1/11/2018 at 9:15 PM, Wynterwolf said:

I wonder if this could have something to do with Banner's arc.

God, I hope not. If I have to see more of Natasha angsting over not being able to set up housekeeping with Banner because of her monstrous barren womb I'm starting a riot. Let him be a disembodied third wheel on Hulk's dates with Valkyrie over in Thor's corner of the MCU and keep her involved with the Cap- and Fury-centric storylines.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Bruinsfan

[Wynterwolf]

2 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

If I have to see more of Natasha angsting over not being able to set up housekeeping with Banner because of her monstrous barren womb I'm starting a riot

Heh, agreed.  But I don't think that will have anything to do with what they seem to be using there.  

[stealinghome]

Agreed. My hope for IW is that Natasha and Bruce give each other a little head nod and then everyone agrees to totally forget that anything other than friendship ever happened there!

[Silver Raven]

2 hours ago, stealinghome said:

Agreed. My hope for IW is that Natasha and Bruce give each other a little head nod and then everyone agrees to totally forget that anything other than friendship ever happened there!

Urk.  The first time I read that, I missed the word "nod" and went off in my head.  :D

[Cobalt Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

God, I hope not. If I have to see more of Natasha angsting over not being able to set up housekeeping with Banner because of her monstrous barren womb I'm starting a riot.

In all fairness, it was Whedon's doing to have Bruce and Natasha jump from flirting to maybe having a relationship to "no future, no kids, gotta go, bye" in the space of a single  movie. I could swear I saw  a rumor after Age of Ultron that Disney wanted a Clint and Natasha pairing (and they are the Evil Empire for a reason) but Joss nixed it in favor of Barton being married and Natasha suddenly wanting "normalcy". I do take your point, but in the end he ran away and she stayed, so I think they're pretty done.

[VCRTracking]

2 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

2 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

If I have to see more of Natasha angsting over not being able to set up housekeeping with Banner because of her monstrous barren womb I'm starting a riot

Heh, agreed.  But I don't think that will have anything to do with what they seem to be using there. 

Actually, it was her NOT being able to bear a child which made her think she and Bruce could be together!

Okay I get it, Natasha's not supposed to be like the lonely mute girl who bangs a fish monster in The Shape of Water. Fans want her to be the badass girl who has equally badass "Friends with Benefits" that she fights alongside and bangs later. Sorry if that sounds crude but it's the only reason I can think of why people prefer her to be with Jeremy Renner over Mark Ruffalo!

Edited January 25, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I do take your point, but in the end he ran away and she stayed, so I think they're pretty done.

Except it was the recording of Natasha that reached Bruce in Ragnarok, so maybe not quite so done, just hopefully more subtle and realistic for the (MCU version of the) characters... 

[Bruinsfan]

20 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Okay I get it, Natasha's not supposed to be like the lonely mute girl who bangs a fish monster in The Shape of Water. Fans want her to be the badass girl who has equally badass "Friends with Benefits" that she fights alongside and bangs later. Sorry if that sounds crude but it's the only reason I can think of why people prefer her to be with Jeremy Renner over Mark Ruffalo!

 

I'd prefer Natasha be with neither of them, as having the one founding female member of the team automatically romantically involved with one of her teammates irks me to no end. As does Bruce trying to move on from Betty Ross with someone else when he'll still have all the exact same issues standing in the way. (Valkyrie at least represents a glimmer of hope for him on that front—she was just fine with the monster before she knew there was a man hiding inside.)

 

I'd also have preferred Clint to be the roguish lothario he's been for most of his comics tenure rather than inexplicably living out The Waltons at home in his free time from being a globe-trotting government spy and assassin—I wouldn't pair him with Natasha and spoil the great buddy vibe they have, but being a shameless flirt otherwise would have been fine and dandy. Though I suppose Renner would have to learn how to stop scowling and have romantic chemistry with a co-star for that to be viable.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Bruinsfan