The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[stealinghome]

I'm on Tony's side because he recognizes that pure intentions can become warped. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. And that is a lesson he learned the hard way. A lesson that Steve has not.

Funny--my reaction is the exact opposite. I think Steve gets that very much. I'm not sure TONY does, at all.

[anna0852]

I think Ultron hammered that point home to Tony.

[ChelseaNH]

I think Ultron hammered that point home to Tony.

 

So much so that he turned right around and created the Vision.  Because surely that wouldn't go badly twice.

[stealinghome]

So much so that he turned right around and created the Vision. Because surely that wouldn't go badly twice.

Preach. The entire second half of AoU was people saying "Tony, we don't think that's a good idea" and Tony saying "Whatever, I know I'm right!" How can Tony with a straight face ask his teammates to abide by what someone else tells them to do when Tony himself can't manage it?

I know I sound like a broken record, but this is why I can't take Tony seriously as some force for laws and registration. We all know that the moment Tony decides he's right and the rules are wrong, he's going to do what he wants, screw whatever the rules say. Which is fine, to a degree, but then don't expect people to take it well when you shake a finger in their faces and demand they abide by the same rules you yourself toss out all the time.

Edited December 28, 2015 by stealinghome

[anna0852]

My point was that by the end, I think he did realize it. I always took that to be the reason that he set the Avengers up and then walked away. He had a sense that he couldn't trust himself with that sort of power.

[Morrigan2575]

This conversation actually explains a lot of the issues I had with the start of AoU. I don't watch Agents of SHIELD, so for me the MCU pretty much went from CA:TWS to AoU, and I couldn't make it fit.

[VCRTracking]

[JessePinkman]

Foot face looks surprisingly good!

 

I'm the one person that didn't think AoU was that bad but they've bungled the buildup to Civil War the same way they bungled the buildup to Ultron. These movies are serialized yet the inciting event for, the creation and defeat of Ultron was all handled in one movie. It was just TOO much for a single movie to handle. Plus there was like 70 characters who all needed their own arcs. I felt like I was watching a better version of the last two shitty X-Men movies.

 

Now Civil War is going to establish the Registration Act, address it and I guess end it all in the same movie? Why didn't they introduce it in Ultron? No one who hasn't seen Ultron will be watching Civil War so why hold it back? That's how I felt about the lack of establishing Ultron at the end of IM3.

[ChelseaNH]

Foot face looks surprisingly good!

 

At last, I don't feel so alone in not finding him squee-worthy.

[stealinghome]

Not just you guys. I've never understood the Cumberbatch appeal.

[Kel Varnsen]

I think most of Tony's decisions are still based on his PTSD from Avengers plus the fact that he is a scientist not a soldier like cap. There is a great part in AoU where Tony talks about how he feels the greatest threat to humanity is another alien invasion. Cap's solution is fight, to the death if needed and hopefully win. Tony wants an actual solution and as a scientist he is willing to go through multiple iterations of the experiment until he gets it right. And the PTSD from almost dying in an alien wormhole means he is going to do whatever it takes.

[Jazzy24]

At last, I don't feel so alone in not finding him squee-worthy.

Physically I don't see anything attractive about him except once in Sherlock he did this scene where he was coming through the window and he kissed a girl and he walked off and it was with so much swagger so that's the one and only time I've ever found him attractive or squeeworthy and that lasted a few seconds.

But he's a great actor IMO and I love his personality.

[Danny Franks]

Not only do I not find Cumberbatch interesting, I don't find Doctor Strange interesting either. I hope there isn't much in the movie that makes it required viewing for the rest of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, because I very much doubt I'll be seeing it until it turns up on TV or Netflix and I have a spare couple of hours.

[JessePinkman]

Not only do I not find Cumberbatch interesting, I don't find Doctor Strange interesting either. I hope there isn't much in the movie that makes it required viewing for the rest of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, because I very much doubt I'll be seeing it until it turns up on TV or Netflix and I have a spare couple of hours.

Honestly I think it looks like it would've worked better as a Netflix series. I don't know who's checking for a Doctor Strange movie but you know, Ant-Man.

[ChelseaNH]

Tony wants an actual solution

 

Tony's "actual solution" was to have a robot that will fight to the death.  I'm not sure there is a solution for invasion.  They come, you fight as hard as you can to stay alive, somebody wins.  A robot means you can fight a little harder, that's all.

 

I suppose isolating the Earth in an inaccessible pocket universe would be a solution to invasion, but I can't help feeling there would be some side effects.

Edited December 29, 2015 by ChelseaNH

[Danny Franks]

Honestly I think it looks like it would've worked better as a Netflix series. I don't know who's checking for a Doctor Strange movie but you know, Ant-Man.

 

That's true, but at least Ant-Man embraced the silliness of the concept, and just focused on making things fun and goofy. I mean, a giant Thomas the Tank Engine, complete with swaying eyes? Comedy sidekicks stealing scenes, right and left? Paul Rudd in the title role really made the movie's goals clear.

 

This one looks like a more po-faced affair, with Cumberbatch, Tilda Swinton and Mads Mikkelsen, which really doesn't fit the outrageously campy character that Doctor Strange should be. The director has nothing but trashy horror films on his résumé, which actually makes me even less interested.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Danny Franks

[Morrigan2575]

I'm excited for the Doctor Strange movie. Granted, I don't know much about the character, I only know him from when he appears in an X-Men or crossover storyline. Pre Secret Wars he would occasionally show up in Uncanny X-Men as Illyana/Magic's mentor and he was entertaining.

I like Cumberbatch, I think he's a good actor with a great voice. I look forward to see what he can do with the role.

I'm really excited for Dr. Strange, Inhumans and Captain Marvel. Of course it's going to take forever for the last 2 to get released. I just hope they go with the actual Inhuman family and not whatever crap they're making up on AoS (yeah, I know, Infinity/Inhumanity) but I want Blackbolt, Medusa, Crystal (probably won't get Luna, unless Wanda brings Pietro back).

Edited December 31, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[VCRTracking]

This one looks like a more po-faced affair, with Cumberbatch, Tilda Swinton and Mads Mikkelsen, which really doesn't fit the outrageously campy character that Doctor Strange should be.

 

I thought Tilda Swinton chewed some nice scenery in Constantine and Snowpiercer.

 

Edited December 29, 2015 by VCRTracking

[benteen]

I'm a fan of Benedict Cumberbatch and Sherlock so I'm excited to see him play Doctor Strange.

 

Though I admit I would have loved to have seen Pedro Pascal cast as Doctor Strange.

[nobodyyoucare]

Tony's "actual solution" was to have a robot that will fight to the death.  I'm not sure there is a solution for invasion.  They come, you fight as hard as you can to stay alive, somebody wins.  A robot means you can fight a little harder, that's all.

 

I suppose isolating the Earth in an inaccessible pocket universe would be a solution to invasion, but I can't help feeling there would be some side effects.

It was more about an AI that could detect dangers to the Earth and send out the Iron Army if necessary to deal with it. It was also about detecting and coming up with plans to deal with it and the means. 

[DollEyes]

Another who's excited for the Doctor Strange movie and is intrigued by Benedict Cumberbatch's take on the title role. He may not be the most conventionally handsome actor in the world, but I've seen way worse with way less talent, charisma & style.

 

 

 

This one looks more like a po-faced affair, with Cumberbatch, Tilda Swinton and Mads Mikkelson, which doesn't really fit into the outrageously campy character that Doctor Strange should be.

 

I thought Tilda Swinton chewed some nice scenery in Constantine and Snowpiercer.

 

  Not to mention her scenery-chewing performances in Only Lovers Left Alive, Trainwreck, the Narnia movies  and The Grand Budapest Hotel. As for Mikkelson, he not only figuratively and literally chewed scenery in Hannibal, he played a Bond villain in Casino Royale, which is scenery-chewing personified, not to mention playing the male lead/title role in Rihanna's "Bitch Better Have My Money" video. The way I see it, I have to see the actual trailer with the actors in action, before I decide whether or not the actors can pull it off.

Edited December 29, 2015 by DollEyes

[Dandesun]

I think most of Tony's decisions are still based on his PTSD from Avengers plus the fact that he is a scientist not a soldier like cap. There is a great part in AoU where Tony talks about how he feels the greatest threat to humanity is another alien invasion. Cap's solution is fight, to the death if needed and hopefully win. Tony wants an actual solution and as a scientist he is willing to go through multiple iterations of the experiment until he gets it right. And the PTSD from almost dying in an alien wormhole means he is going to do whatever it takes.

 

Yes, Cap's solution is to fight. I think that's because he knows that there's always going to be a fight. Peace is a wonderful concept but how likely is it to happen. Tony can think as large as he wants... Steve grew up in the midst of two world wars and the Great Depression. He grew up getting his ass kicked just because there were people bigger than him. Steve may have resigned himself to always fighting a war because there always seems to be a war to fight. He got thawed out 70 years after the fact, was told that they won the war... but that doesn't mean he woke up in a time of peace. Just because wars aren't being declared doesn't mean that they aren't being fought.

 

I think Steve, knowing that there will always be a war of some sort, wants the right people to fight for the right reasons. Tony wants to wipe it all away, that's fine, it's admirable...  but he also encased himself in armor and attached as many weapons he could manage to create to it (which is saying something.) And, somehow, being attacked by an alien force didn't do much to unite the Earth at all in the MCU. (So much for the Watchmen idea!)

 

Steve comes from the same place he started: I don't like bullies, I don't care where they're from. 

 

I do think that Bucky will complicate things in a big way for him because he goes further back than the rest. He's also the one who has dealt with Hydra and understands them better in ways the others just don't. The brain-washing thing should be more understandable. It's been a part of the MCU for a long time. Clint was brain-washed, Dr. Selvig was brain-washed... neither one of them seem to carry any real stigma from the others. Clint killed people while under Loki's control. Dr. Selvig built the machine that opened the wyrmhole for the Chitauri. Tony created Ultron under the influence of Wanda's mind-control. So Bucky... who was experimented on, brain-washed, mind-wiped... all of that... he doesn't get any kind of consideration due to that? Or do they just write him off because it's been too long?

[nobodyyoucare]

 

(So much for the Watchmen idea!)

Only a few blocks were affected. Damage was fairly light as invasions go. Unless the city had been wiped out or massive casualties to the tune of millions to hundreds of millions around the world there would be no unification. Since to the majority of mankind that day nothing was going on and hence there would be no threat of invasion causing nations to put aside differences and work together. 

[stealinghome]

I think most of Tony's decisions are still based on his PTSD from Avengers plus the fact that he is a scientist not a soldier like cap. There is a great part in AoU where Tony talks about how he feels the greatest threat to humanity is another alien invasion. Cap's solution is fight, to the death if needed and hopefully win. Tony wants an actual solution and as a scientist he is willing to go through multiple iterations of the experiment until he gets it right. And the PTSD from almost dying in an alien wormhole means he is going to do whatever it takes.

I think Steve, knowing that there will always be a war of some sort, wants the right people to fight for the right reasons. Tony wants to wipe it all away, that's fine, it's admirable...  but he also encased himself in armor and attached as many weapons he could manage to create to it (which is saying something.)

Agreed. To quote a favorite TV show, "Every leader who ever preached peace did so guarded by armed men." If your solution to peace is to constantly be building bigger and better weapons? I hate to tell you, but that's not really peace at all. (Ironically enough, Tony is the first to jump on Fury for this in The Avengers. "Nuclear deterrent? Because that always calms everything down.") Now, it does seem like in Civil War that Tony is more on the "right people fighting the right way for the right reasons" bandwagon. But that brings us back to, who decides who the right people are? The right reasons to fight? The right way to fight? The superheroes have gone through several watchdogs at this point, and none have proved adequate. Humans are always going to be fallible. Tony's kidding himself if he thinks he can make a perfect regulation system.

 

I get Tony's desire to keep Earth safe--who doesn't?--but if he is still very much suffering from PTSD, he is not the person to be making any of these decisions.

 

The brain-washing thing should be more understandable. It's been a part of the MCU for a long time. Clint was brain-washed, Dr. Selvig was brain-washed... neither one of them seem to carry any real stigma from the others. Clint killed people while under Loki's control. Dr. Selvig built the machine that opened the wyrmhole for the Chitauri. Tony created Ultron under the influence of Wanda's mind-control. So Bucky... who was experimented on, brain-washed, mind-wiped... all of that... he doesn't get any kind of consideration due to that? Or do they just write him off because it's been too long?

This x1000. I have yet to see a compelling argument for why Bucky deserves to have everyone come down on him like a ton of bricks while Selvig, Clint, anyone else Loki enslaved with the scepter, or Tony (or Wanda) gets a free pass. Or Natasha, for that matter, who as far as we know has never been tried or punished for anything she did as part of the Red Room.

[Kel Varnsen]

I get Tony's desire to keep Earth safe--who doesn't?--but if he is still very much suffering from PTSD, he is not the person to be making any of these decisions.

I think he still has major PTSD. I mean even before Wanda mindfucked him (which I don't think actually controlled him just stirred up his PTSD and made it worse with the thought that the next invasion could kill all his friends) he was working on the Ultron program. It is interesting that in Iron Man 3 he blew up all the iron man suits as some symbolic gesture to show he was over it. But we come back to AoU he not only has a new suit, but he has the Hulkbuster suit and the Iron Legion.

 

Tony's kidding himself if he thinks he can make a perfect regulation system.

 

 

 

But if you don't at least try to have some kind of system how do you deal with it. Fighting to save the world from the Chitauri is an easy choice, but what if an Avenger decided that they wanted to free Tibet or get Russia out of the Ukraine no matter what it took? For that matter how is it any different from the laws we have now. We don't throw out the whole criminal justice system just because there are some corrupt cops.

 

 

 

 

Yes, Cap's solution is to fight. I think that's because he knows that there's always going to be a fight. Peace is a wonderful concept but how likely is it to happen. Tony can think as large as he wants... Steve grew up in the midst of two world wars and the Great Depression. He grew up getting his ass kicked just because there were people bigger than him. Steve may have resigned himself to always fighting a war because there always seems to be a war to fight. He got thawed out 70 years after the fact, was told that they won the war... but that doesn't mean he woke up in a time of peace. Just because wars aren't being declared doesn't mean that they aren't being fought.

 

I think Steve, knowing that there will always be a war of some sort, wants the right people to fight for the right reasons. Tony wants to wipe it all away, that's fine, it's admirable...  but he also encased himself in armor and attached as many weapons he could manage to create to it (which is saying something.) And, somehow, being attacked by an alien force didn't do much to unite the Earth at all in the MCU. (So much for the Watchmen idea!)

 

Steve comes from the same place he started: I don't like bullies, I don't care where they're from. 

Yea I think here is where the soldier who came from nothing compared to the scientist who was born with everything comes to play.Steve always knows there will be some asshole that you will have to be ready for. For Tony the scientist, solving the problem of how to save the world from an alien invasion is like how to cure a disease. You try something and if it doesn't work you keep trying and eventually you will get it. I am sure he still figures if he could get another crack at that mind stone he could make a better Ultron. Not sure either one of them is really wrong in this case just two ways of looking at things.

[Raja]

Only a few blocks were affected. Damage was fairly light as invasions go. Unless the city had been wiped out or massive casualties to the tune of millions to hundreds of millions around the world there would be no unification. Since to the majority of mankind that day nothing was going on and hence there would be no threat of invasion causing nations to put aside differences and work together. 

You are forgetting one thing. to quote General Talbot from a later Agents of SHIELD episode speaking to the UN "aliens,,,,, aliens attacked us". It wasn't Nazi Hydra or people from some other faith or political system. Thor's first appearance was in the desert, like all the abduction stories we laugh at in real life and suddenly aliens from outer space are attacking and only someone with North Korean levels of censorship could hide the story from us all. The nuke just closed the portal before anyone, even the US military could mobilize.

[Spartan Girl]

Civil War had better at least acknowledge all the crap General Ross put Bruce through. Just because Natasha happens to be on the same side as him doesn't mean she can't kick his butt about it at some point.

[Kel Varnsen]

Civil War had better at least acknowledge all the crap General Ross put Bruce through. Just because Natasha happens to be on the same side as him doesn't mean she can't kick his butt about it at some point.

With Ross and Black Widow being in the movie I wonder if there will be any mention of Betty Ross.

[nobodyyoucare]

 

You are forgetting one thing. to quote General Talbot from a later Agents of SHIELD episode speaking to the UN "aliens,,,,, aliens attacked us".

Since the vast majority of people didn't see it they don't have any reaction to it. Only those that were there and most of those put in the back of their minds and went on their routine. Humans have an amazing capacity to reject reality and attempt to impose a fantasy on the world. 

[Raja]

Since the vast majority of people didn't see it they don't have any reaction to it. Only those that were there and most of those put in the back of their minds and went on their routine. Humans have an amazing capacity to reject reality and attempt to impose a fantasy on the world.

but they did react Project Insight and the helicarriers was the reaction approved by the World Council which Hydra emerged to take over.

[Spartan Girl]

With Ross and Black Widow being in the movie I wonder if there will be any mention of Betty Ross.

Yeah, I'm wondering that too. Betty pretty much disowned her dad in the last Hulk movie, so I don't think they'd be in contact.

[ChelseaNH]

I have yet to see a compelling argument for why Bucky deserves to have everyone come down on him like a ton of bricks

 

Because this time ... it's personal!

[Kel Varnsen]

Yeah, I'm wondering that too. Betty pretty much disowned her dad in the last Hulk movie, so I don't think they'd be in contact.

Marvel obviously remembers her since i don't think it was a coincidence that the Hulkbuster satellite was called Veronica. Plus as much as Ed Norton bugs me I like Liv Tyler.

[stealinghome]

Given that the Natasha/Bruce romance seemed generally unpopular, though, I wonder if they're basically just going to pretend it didn't happen. Have one of those "we all agree to just forget about it..." silent deals with the audience.

[Dandesun]

It would be really nice to see Betty brought into the MCU at large in some fashion. The Hulk movies tend to be shoved off to the side and largely forgotten but I'd love to see Betty acknowledged. She does matter.

[Perfect Xero]

I have yet to see a compelling argument for why Bucky deserves to have everyone come down on him like a ton of bricks while Selvig, Clint, anyone else Loki enslaved with the scepter, or Tony (or Wanda) gets a free pass. Or Natasha, for that matter, who as far as we know has never been tried or punished for anything she did as part of the Red Room.

 

Just from the trailers it seems that Bucky is still killing people, or has been framed for a new killing. So they want to bring him in, because, you know, a dangerous enhanced human assassin going around murdering people is bad, and Steve isn't going to let them.

[Spartan Girl]

Given that the Natasha/Bruce romance seemed generally unpopular, though, I wonder if they're basically just going to pretend it didn't happen. Have one of those "we all agree to just forget about it..." silent deals with the audience.

Even if that's the case, Natasha can still show some indignance for Zbruce whether Bruce is a friend or love interest. Ross fucked Bruce over, and I don't think any of the Avengers would be willing to forget that.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Spartan Girl

[anna0852]

Even if that's the case, Natasha can still show some indignance for Zbruce whether Bruce is a friend or love interest. Ross fucked Bruce over, and I don't think any of the Avengers would be willing to forget that.

Tony already doesn't like General Ross. Is he aware of how he was messing with Tony's Science Bro?

Edited January 1, 2016 by anna0852

[Bruinsfan]

At last, I don't feel so alone in not finding him squee-worthy.

He looks like the sloth from the Ice Age movies to me. I didn't have an opinion about him personally one way or the other until he agreed to whitewash Khan Noonian Singh and to portray Alan Turing as an actual potentially traitorous security risk thanks to his sexuality. He needs to earn a lot of brownie points from me as Dr. Strange, whereas everyone else in the cast already has them to burn.

 

I suppose isolating the Earth in an inaccessible pocket universe would be a solution to invasion, but I can't help feeling there would be some side effects.

Here's something Tony could work on that would build on existing technology in the MCU: We've already seen him use holographic displays, and the helicarrier disguises itself by projecting the background sky above it onto its lower surfaces. How about a system of holographic projectors in orbit that can make the Earth look like a barren rock or empty space to distant observers?

[Perfect Xero]

Due to the distances we're dealing with and the speed of light "cloaking" wouldn't actually have any effect for years, decades, centuries, millennia, ect ... after such a project was completed depending on where the potential observer was located.

 

Even in comic book science land, I'd have to think that a planet wide cloaking field would be beyond expensive to construct, require the cooperation of nations all over the Earth, and require a ludicrous amount of power to keep running.

 

In addition Guardians of the Galaxy makes it pretty clear is that everyone in the galaxy at large already seems to be aware of Earth. the Nova Corps, the Kree, Thanos, the Ravagers, Asgard, ect ... all clearly know about Earth/Terra and, in most cases have already visited. It's not really a situation where the cat can be put back in the bag at this point.

[Ruby25]

I'm kind of looking forward to Doctor Strange, because I do like Benedict Cumberbatch and think he's a great actor. I just wonder if they're going to have him be British or if he's doing an American accent in it.

[nobodyyoucare]

Also a cloak works on visual unless the cloak can also fool sensor readings. I think any advanced alien species would have sensor tech that could detect any Earth based cloaking. Also what happens when the cloak is pierced?

 

 

until he agreed to whitewash Khan Noonian Singh

For some reason the movie didn't mention his surgery to make him not appear like Khan Noonian Singh in the historical records as well as a new name and being brainwashed by the starfleet admiral who found him. That was several of the reasons that Singh was enraged at Starfleet for what they did to him and his crew.

That was in the other material put out for the movie but the movie didn't state it. 

[Kel Varnsen]

Also a cloak works on visual unless the cloak can also fool sensor readings. I think any kadvanced alien species would have sensor tech that could detect any Earth based cloaking. Also what happens when the cloak is pierced?

Yea considering that Rocket for example is way smarter than Tony, Pym or Banner I am not sure that would be an effective solution.

[Bruinsfan]

I was mainly thinking in terms of near range camouflage that inhibits accurate orbital approach/targeting rather than covering up Earth's existence altogether (hell, we've been pumping radio broadcasts out into space since 1936), but the point about advanced alien tech being able to look past such a cloak is a good one.

 

Mind you, Dr. Strange or Professor X might be able to implement such a strategy effectively by targeting aliens' minds rather than their instrumentation.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Bruinsfan

[benteen]

 

Yes, Cap's solution is to fight. I think that's because he knows that there's always going to be a fight. Peace is a wonderful concept but how likely is it to happen. Tony can think as large as he wants... Steve grew up in the midst of two world wars and the Great Depression. He grew up getting his ass kicked just because there were people bigger than him. Steve may have resigned himself to always fighting a war because there always seems to be a war to fight. He got thawed out 70 years after the fact, was told that they won the war... but that doesn't mean he woke up in a time of peace. Just because wars aren't being declared doesn't mean that they aren't being fought.

 

I think Steve, knowing that there will always be a war of some sort, wants the right people to fight for the right reasons. Tony wants to wipe it all away, that's fine, it's admirable...  but he also encased himself in armor and attached as many weapons he could manage to create to it (which is saying something.) And, somehow, being attacked by an alien force didn't do much to unite the Earth at all in the MCU. (So much for the Watchmen idea!)

 

Steve comes from the same place he started: I don't like bullies, I don't care where they're from. 

 

I do think that Bucky will complicate things in a big way for him because he goes further back than the rest. He's also the one who has dealt with Hydra and understands them better in ways the others just don't. The brain-washing thing should be more understandable. It's been a part of the MCU for a long time. Clint was brain-washed, Dr. Selvig was brain-washed... neither one of them seem to carry any real stigma from the others. Clint killed people while under Loki's control. Dr. Selvig built the machine that opened the wyrmhole for the Chitauri. Tony created Ultron under the influence of Wanda's mind-control. So Bucky... who was experimented on, brain-washed, mind-wiped... all of that... he doesn't get any kind of consideration due to that? Or do they just write him off because it's been too long?

 

Let me just say that this post is top-to-bottom brilliant.

 

Agreed about Bucky.  Everyone gets a pass who is brainwashed and what happened to Bucky was particularly brutal.  The only thing that makes sense to me is that Bucky was used to kill high-ranking individuals from many countries (a fact also established in the original story) and several of those countries were probably unfriendly and/or just don't want to hear about it.  That at least makes a little more sense with how they are still going after him.  But Bucky was a victim in this case.

 

How much can you really trust the governments of the world in the MCU when Thunderbolt Ross is apparently a high-ranking government official, after all the crap he pulled in The Incredible Hulk movie?  That shows gross incompetence and corruption there.  And TONY was the one who approached Ross about this at the end of that movie.  So what does that say about him?

 

For the record, I still think Sam Elliot's Thunderbolt Ross blows William Hurt's version out of the water in terms of both performance and the kind of character he was.

[nobodyyoucare]

 

And TONY was the one who approached Ross about this at the end of that movie.  So what does that say about him?

One of the Marvel one shots on the dvd blu ray releases reveals the reason why Tony was seen approaching Ross. The council that Nick Fury that answers to wanted to put the Abomination on the Avengers team that Fury was planning. Fury didn't want that and had Tony approach Ross (without Tony knowing the reason nor that Fury had sent him) to piss off Ross so he wouldn't make the Abomination available.

Edited January 4, 2016 by nobodyyoucare

[Zuleikha]

Agreed about Bucky.  Everyone gets a pass who is brainwashed and what happened to Bucky was particularly brutal.

I don't think Captain America is the person who should decide that. Bucky can use brainwashing as a defense, but it's up to him to convince people that it's a real, meaningful defense. There should be a process for holding him to trial. Maybe it should be S.H.I.E.L.D. connected rather than criminal/civil, but IMHO, it should be transparent and under ultimate authority of the US government.

 

I also don't think what happened to Bucky is the same as Hawkeye or Selvig, who were magically mind controlled for a short time with additional witnesses who can testify to Loki's actions and power. What happened to Bucky seems to be most comparable to Black Widow, and we don't know what deals were/weren't made that resulted in Black Widow working for S.H.I.E.L.D. instead of being brought to trial. Also, Black Widow clearly considers herself to still be responsible for her actions.

[Dandesun]

We also saw some of what happened to Bucky. We saw his arm getting sawed off. We saw Zola there. We saw him put in cryogenic freeze... we saw him get mind-wiped... getting bite-guard put in his mouth before some machine electrocuted the shit out of him and we saw him accept all of those things as rote. I can see Bucky being looked on with suspicion as a possible Manchurian Candidate after so many years but there doesn't seem to be any interest in finding that out.

 

How long has it been since Bucky even had a name? Steve may not be the person to decide whether or not Bucky can be saved... except that he was exactly that person with everyone else. He accepted Hawkeye back with a vouch from Natasha. He accepted Banner sight unseen. He saw immediately why Wanda and Pietro would submit themselves to Hydra's experimentation because even if SHIELD wasn't fighting a war, those two definitely were. He also saw when they realized their mistake and counted on them to help.

 

The interesting thing about all of this set up to me is that the person that Steve is consistently suspicious of regarding motive is Tony. For all of the 'he's my friend/so was i' play... Steve and Tony are the ones who have been most consistently at odds since the beginning. Another problem is that Tony rather consistently flip-flops. He finds out his weapons are being used by terrorists so he shuts down that part of his company and builds the Iron Man suit for himself. He goes in front of Congress and brags that he's the nuclear deterrent and then follows that up in Avengers by mocking Nick Fury for using Phase 2 as the same thing. He rather consistently believes that he knows what's best up to and through Ultron while everyone around him (including Cap) is going 'can you take a fucking breath before you do this shit again, please?' And now he's suddenly on the side of oversight?

 

Meanwhile, Steve has consistently tried to work with and under the orders of others... he's been put on the shelf, ridiculed and dismissed as 'just one man' -- except that he comes through every time. What's more, we've discovered through Steve that all of these organizations meant to oversee are infiltrated with corrupt Hydra agents. Project Oversight was going to flat out murder millions of people who were conceived as threats to Hydra due to some algorithm that Zola came up with and that was seconds away from succeeding... except for Steve (and Nick... he did recognize that shit had gone bad, too.) The whole 'who watches the Watchmen' situation has repeatedly been shown to be infiltrated by corruption every time.

 

And they aren't doing much better by bringing General Ross into the game. Yeah, that guy's a level headed man to have at the wheel.

 

I watched Ant-Man over the weekend and saw the piece at the end end again. Sam and Tony specifically say that 'a week ago' helping Bucky would have been a lot easier and even though they want to call Tony they can't because of the accords and that it might get him into trouble.

[benteen]

Yeah, Steve and Tony have not had a strong friendship in the movies and during that wood chopping scene in Age of Ultron, Steve really just looked annoyed as hell at him and that seems to be the feelings that Tony generate from him.  Marvel has done a good job setting up the conflict between Steve and Tony but not the friendship between the two that the trailer tries to play up.

 

As I recall in the original Avengers comics back in the 60s, the conflict always seemed to be between Tony and Thor.

[Dandesun]

To be fair, the wood chopping scene came after the initial Ultron reveal... followed by Hawkeye's secret life... followed by Thor taking off with barely an explanation. Steve even said he was starting to get used to his team-mates keeping stuff from him but Thor didn't tend to be one of those guys. Then you've got the whole Tony justifying creating Ultron in the first place and it's, once again, Tony being Tony -- which Steve has never been particularly impressed by in the movies.

 

Meanwhile, Tony has his never-ending Daddy issues wrapped up and around Steve and his aura of perfection. I mean 'sometimes I want to punch you in your perfect teeth' and 'I don't trust anyone who doesn't have a dark side.' And, let's face it, everyone loves Steve... which probably sticks in Tony's craw something fierce just as the arrogant, me me me guy that he is. Even Tony admires Steve... which also probably pisses Tony off. The crux of the tension within the Avengers has always been Steve vs Tony.

 

I also think you're right that it was Tony and Thor that were always at odds... which also makes sense because as different as Tony and Steve are, Tony and Thor are just enough alike to REALLY make the differences that much more obvious... and annoying to each other. Thor wasn't around for Civil War in the comics...  but he showed up afterwards and was none too pleased with Mr. Stark.