The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[swanpride]

Well, imagine you grew up being told that Asians (just an example) are the worst scum of the earth, monsters who should be killed on sight to protect the superior white race. And you believe this, that you are part of the superior white race and pretty much everyone in the universe is beneath you. And then one day you look in the mirror and realise that you are Asian yourself. But it has been ingrained in you that being Asien makes you automatically inferior. Add to this that your father favoured your brother your whole life. How would that make you feel?

Loki suppers from internalised racism paired with the worst father complex of them all, even beating Tony's. Everything he does in the first Thor movie is about proving to Odin that he is the better son...convincing Thor to go against Odin's orders, his whole plan to kill Laufey right in Odin's bedroom, him trying to destroy the Jotunn's altogether, all to win Odin's approval, just to have him say "no" to him in the end. And a lot of this can be traced back to how Loki was raised. 

[FnkyChkn34]

8 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Well, imagine you grew up being told that Asians (just an example) are the worst scum of the earth, monsters who should be killed on sight to protect the superior white race. And you believe this, that you are part of the superior white race and pretty much everyone in the universe is beneath you. And then one day you look in the mirror and realise that you are Asian yourself. But it has been ingrained in you that being Asien makes you automatically inferior. Add to this that your father favoured your brother your whole life. How would that make you feel?

Loki suppers from internalised racism paired with the worst father complex of them all, even beating Tony's. Everything he does in the first Thor movie is about proving to Odin that he is the better son...convincing Thor to go against Odin's orders, his whole plan to kill Laufey right in Odin's bedroom, him trying to destroy the Jotunn's altogether, all to win Odin's approval, just to have him say "no" to him in the end. And a lot of this can be traced back to how Loki was raised. 

OK, but since he didn't look differently, he didn't know all of that growing up.  What was his excuse as a child?  It's just still his personality.  Yes, Odin favored Thor, but Loki has been Loki his whole life.  If he didn't know he was different for decades, he can't retroactively use that as his excuse now - it only excuses his current behaviour, not anything from his childhood.

[swanpride]

Beforehand? As far as we know Loki's actions were (in the frame of Asgardians) simple jokes and occasional tricks, basically him using his brains instead of his brans. There is a deleted scene in Thor in which he and Thor are joking around, and the Thor puts him down, a servant shows amusement about this and Loki retaliates with one of his tricks. As far as we know, none of his "jokes" went to far until he led the Jotunns in because he wanted to prevent Thor getting the throne (and let's be honest here, Thor is very unsuited for it at this point). It is pretty clear that Loki didn't intend to have anyone die during this, he assumed that the destroyer would do the work and nobody but the Jotunns - who in his mind are just savage beast, remember - would get hurt. All he does at the beginning of Thor is trying to proof that Thor is unsuited for the throne (which is is, let's be honest), it was most likely not even his intention to have Thor actually go to Jotunheim, he just wanted him to get caught during the attempt.

Don't get me wrong here, I am not one of the "poor innocent Loki" camp, he carries responsibility for his actions, but he was never completely evil either. The Asguardian guards who died were an accident, not part of his plan (he is responsible for them dying, no doubt, but it wasn't intentional), his whole plan to take out the Jotuns was basically him lashing out and the result of him not considering Jotuns anything but savage beasts (as I said, internalised racism), his actions on earth are happening after Thanos was torturing and manipulating him for months (apparently Loki even misremembers what happened on the rainbow bridge), him sending the cursed right to his own mother was for sure not intentional but yet another case of Loki acting without considering the possible consequences, and him taking the throne and casting Odin out was the equivalent of him taking the toy Thor didn't want. Loki is just Loki, he is pure chaos and his actions can have good and bad consequences. 

[Spartan Girl]

@swanpride Was Loki being tortured by Thanos? I thought he just saw Thanos as an opportunity to get an army and joined him willingly.

The sad thing is that it took Odin and Frigga’s deaths and Thor finally giving up on him for Loki to finally see sense. 

Frigga’s death had to be really haunting because of the last moment together in Dark World. When he was screaming that Odin wasn’t his father, Frigga asked calmly and sadly, “Then am I not your mother?” You could tell by the conflict on his face that he knew he was about to hike up another notch on the asshole meter, but instead he doubled down: “You are not.” And while he looked like he wanted to take it back right away, he never got the chance to. So that, along with his “You might want to try the staircase in the back” comment to the Dark Elves, definitely came back to bite him in the ass.

And Odin? Well, there’s a difference between saying you want someone dead and actually (albeit indirectly) causing his death. A more painful twist of the knife? Odin was beyond any anger by that point and just makes it clear (for the upteenth time) that Loki was still his son and he loved him.

I’m so eager to see how Variant Loki’s character progression will differ on the show!

Edited June 8, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[Morrigan2575]

58 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Was Loki being tortured by Thanos? I thought he just saw Thanos as an opportunity to get an army and joined him willingly.

I believe there's a deleted scene or perhaps a scene that was written and not filmed that showed Thanks used the Mind Stone on Loki. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

27 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I believe there's a deleted scene or perhaps a scene that was written and not filmed that showed Thanks used the Mind Stone on Loki. 

Eh?

My thinking is, if it wasn't filmed and SHOWN in the released movie(s), it didn't happen.

[AimingforYoko]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I believe there's a deleted scene or perhaps a scene that was written and not filmed that showed Thanks used the Mind Stone on Loki. 

Ah, that Smiths 'B' side "Autocorrect Strikes Again."

[Cobalt Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

@swanpride Was Loki being tortured by Thanos? I thought he just saw Thanos as an opportunity to get an army and joined him willingly.

That was my impression too. As of The Avengers, Thor had believed that Loki was dead, and Loki gives the 'growing up in the shade of your greatness' soliloquy. At that point he was still obsessed with being a king, and even if he knew what Thanos was up to about the Infinity Stones, he wanted an army to conquer the earth, if only to spite his brother.

 

22 hours ago, swanpride said:

 Don't get me wrong here, I am not one of the "poor innocent Loki" camp, he carries responsibility for his actions, but he was never completely evil either. The Asguardian guards who died were an accident, not part of his plan (he is responsible for them dying, no doubt, but it wasn't intentional), his whole plan to take out the Jotuns was basically him lashing out and the result of him not considering Jotuns anything but savage beasts (as I said, internalised racism), his actions on earth are happening after Thanos was torturing and manipulating him for months (apparently Loki even misremembers what happened on the rainbow bridge), him sending the cursed right to his own mother was for sure not intentional but yet another case of Loki acting without considering the possible consequences, and him taking the throne and casting Odin out was the equivalent of him taking the toy Thor didn't want. Loki is just Loki, he is pure chaos and his actions can have good and bad consequences. 

And I would argue that his intentions don't matter. If I learned nothing else from the vigorous discussion over the finale of WandaVision, it's that there should always be consequences regardless of any pre-existing issues or traumas. As @Spartan Girl says, Loki was given multiple chances to stop being a dick, and that Frigga is the only one who really made space for him just makes it doubly awful that his actions resulted in her death. I do think that Thor felt subconsciously superior to his brother, but that was partly Odin's doing, and Odin being kind of a crap father wasn't Thor's fault. If anything, I think Odin took what he learned with Hela so far to heart that he inflicted those consequences on Loki out of self-preservation. He found out what could happen if he gave his kids too much power and authority in fighting by his side, and jovial frat boy Thor, if at the time ill-suited to the throne, I'm sure seemed very unlikely to turn his army against him and try to take over Asgard for himself. That Thor would keep trying to get through to Loki only to get stabbed (sometimes literally) would have put any reasonable person off right away.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Eh?

My thinking is, if it wasn't filmed and SHOWN in the released movie(s), it didn't happen.

I guess autocorrect doesn't like Thanos 😂

[FnkyChkn34]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Eh?

My thinking is, if it wasn't filmed and SHOWN in the released movie(s), it didn't happen.

Agree.  And even if it's comic book canon, it's not MCU movie canon unless filmed and shown, or at least heavily inferred.  Movie-only watchers can't assume to know things that are only in the books.

[swanpride]

The movie shows The Other threatening Loki and apparently hurting him. 

[Starfish35]

TVLine review of Loki (Grade: B+): Loki Review: After a Talky-Talky Start, Disney+'s Third Marvel Series Is a Super Fun 'Time Detectives' Two-Hander

I thought this quote was interesting:

Quote

The banter between Hiddleston and Wilson is electric and often hilarious — a significant upgrade from what Falcon and Winter Soldier believed it was doing — and I cannot stress how critical that is, since the two, roughly 50-minute episodes sent to critics (out of six total) revolves around their push me/pull you dynamic.

 

[Spartan Girl]

I just want it to be better than FATWS. That is all I ask.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On a lighter note, I understood that reference. And Bucky's expression is what makes this gold.

[Spartan Girl]

Well, that first Loki episode really hit home the fact that Loki was responsible for Frigga’s death since the Dark Elves followed his directions to the secret passage. That really emphasizes how broken he was after he found out, not to mention his pained, “Did she suffer?” to Thor. 😭😭😭😭

But of course he had to go and project by blaming Thor for not protecting her.🙄🙄🙄

I wonder if Thor and Odin knew that Loki blabbed to the Dark Elves? I don’t think Thor would be still holding out hope for redemption if he did, considering how done he was with Loki after Odin died. 

[FnkyChkn34]

I was, unfortunately, underwhelmed by Loki.  I won't post spoilers since I'm sure it has it's own forum and not everyone here has seen it yet, but I fell asleep the first time watching it.  I woke up and started it over and watched the whole thing...  Don't get me wrong, it was good - but given all of the hype, I was expecting WOW and not just "good."  Maybe it's a slow build.  

[Anduin]

16 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I was, unfortunately, underwhelmed by Loki.  I won't post spoilers since I'm sure it has it's own forum and not everyone here has seen it yet, but I fell asleep the first time watching it.  I woke up and started it over and watched the whole thing...  Don't get me wrong, it was good - but given all of the hype, I was expecting WOW and not just "good."  Maybe it's a slow build.  

I got about 10 minutes into the first ep before calling it quits. Maybe I'm just in the wrong mood, but I found it annoying rather than entertaining.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I was, unfortunately, underwhelmed by Loki.  I won't post spoilers since I'm sure it has it's own forum and not everyone here has seen it yet, but I fell asleep the first time watching it.  I woke up and started it over and watched the whole thing...  Don't get me wrong, it was good - but given all of the hype, I was expecting WOW and not just "good."  Maybe it's a slow build.  

I felt the same way. I do think that it improved once they got past the exposition and Loki stopped fighting the concept. I’m intrigued but underwhelmed. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

And I felt the opposite. I'm so glad they saved this for last, because it was fun! I laughed and also felt gut-punched. I was looking for fun and I got it.

I loved the opening scene and it made me wonder if they were reshoots or scenes recovered from the editing cutting floor.

Then again, I LOVE Tom Hiddleston.

[Spartan Girl]

24 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And I felt the opposite. I'm so glad they saved this for last, because it was fun! I laughed and also felt gut-punched. I was looking for fun and I got it.

I loved the opening scene and it made me wonder if they were reshoots or scenes recovered from the editing cutting floor.

Then again, I LOVE Tom Hiddleston.

I thought it was amazing too. Hope it keeps up the fun!

Edited June 10, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[Captain Carrot]

On 6/8/2021 at 10:05 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Eh?

My thinking is, if it wasn't filmed and SHOWN in the released movie(s), it didn't happen.

I don't know if it was intentional, but Loki was a little off in The Avengers, especially when talking to The Other. I wouldn't be against the idea that there was some manipulation going on.

[Ohiopirate02]

8 minutes ago, Captain Carrot said:

I don't know if it was intentional, but Loki was a little off in The Avengers, especially when talking to The Other. I wouldn't be against the idea that there was some manipulation going on.

It's been a minute since I last watched the first Avengers movie, but I do remember Loki's eyes being the bright blue like Hawkeye's for most of the movie until Loki gets pummeled by Hulk.  Then his eyes return to their normal blue.  

[Dandesun]

16 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I was, unfortunately, underwhelmed by Loki.  I won't post spoilers since I'm sure it has it's own forum and not everyone here has seen it yet, but I fell asleep the first time watching it.  I woke up and started it over and watched the whole thing...  Don't get me wrong, it was good - but given all of the hype, I was expecting WOW and not just "good."  Maybe it's a slow build.  

I fell asleep the first two times I put it on... but it was because I was exhausted from a shitty night's sleep and actually wanted to fall asleep while something MCU was on in the background. Once I was able to focus on being awake, I absolutely loved it. It was as weird as I was hoping for and I hope it gets weirder.

[Avabelle]

I just feel between Wanda, Falcon and Winter Soldier and now Loki I’m all Marvel’d out. 

[AimingforYoko]

Jameela Jamil cast as Titania in Disney+'s She-Hulk.

[Bruinsfan]

Not casting I would have anticipated (I'd have assumed someone like a younger Katey Sagal. Or maybe actual Katey Sagal.). But Jameela is awesome, so it'll be interesting to see.

[Perfect Xero]

15 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

It's been a minute since I last watched the first Avengers movie, but I do remember Loki's eyes being the bright blue like Hawkeye's for most of the movie until Loki gets pummeled by Hulk.  Then his eyes return to their normal blue.  

According to Marvel's website

Quote

Arriving at the Sanctuary through a wormhole caused by the Bifrost, Loki met the Other, ruler of the ancient race of extraterrestrials the Chitauri, and Thanos. Offering the God of Mischief dominion over his brother’s favorite realm Earth, Thanos requested the Tesseract in return. Gifted with a Scepter that acted as a mind control device, Loki would be able to influence others. Unbeknownst to him, the Scepter was also influencing him, fueling his hatred over his brother Thor and the inhabitants of Earth.

So he wasn't mind controlled like Hawkeye was but he was being influenced by it to act worse than he might have normally.

[tv echo]

FYI...

Marvel Studios Casting Call: Super Women of the MCU
BY MARVEL    June 10, 2021
https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/marvel-studios-casting-call-super-women-of-the-mcu 

Quote

Marvel Studios is excited to bring an original unscripted documentary series to Disney+, showcasing the strong and inspiring women who bring the Marvel Cinematic Universe to life both behind and in front of the camera. This upcoming series will feature the Super Heroes you know onscreen, the brilliant minds who work tirelessly offscreen, and a few incredible fans of the powerful women of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. If you or someone you know is that “super power” fan of Marvel’s strong women and would love to participate in this groundbreaking documentary series, we invite you to apply!

CLICK HERE TO APPLY

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by tv echo

[swanpride]

I enjoyed Loki. But then, I have a thing for shows which give characters their time to develop and challenge each other. 

[FnkyChkn34]

7 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

According to Marvel's website

So he wasn't mind controlled like Hawkeye was but he was being influenced by it to act worse than he might have normally.

So it was a little like the super serum that they gave to John Walker in FATWS, which enhanced everything that was already inside of him, including his ego and evilness.  Loki was still doing things he would have done, just enhanced.

[swanpride]

Except that Loki didn't chose being influenced, while Walker took it willingly. 

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, swanpride said:

Except that Loki didn't chose being influenced, while Walker took it willingly. 

Right.  But I was just trying to make a comparison to the effects to be able to understand.

[frenchtoast]

7 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

According to Marvel's website

So he wasn't mind controlled like Hawkeye was but he was being influenced by it to act worse than he might have normally.

I always assumed that's why everyone got all nasty with each other when Loki was imprisoned. They were all around the scepter and arguing in small groups. It wasn't outright stated, but as the fights progress, the camera flips and focuses on the scepter as if to point out that the scepter was the source of the conflict. It would make sense that it was also affecting Loki. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

15 minutes ago, frenchtoast said:

I always assumed that's why everyone got all nasty with each other when Loki was imprisoned. They were all around the scepter and arguing in small groups. It wasn't outright stated, but as the fights progress, the camera flips and focuses on the scepter as if to point out that the scepter was the source of the conflict. It would make sense that it was also affecting Loki. 

Yep. And toward the end, they all turned toward Bruce, who had grabbed it and looked like he might turn...Green. I always thought it was the scepter doing that. I didn't realize there was confusion over it. Hell, Loki looked like a cancer patient when he showed up, all grayish looking and sweaty. I figured it was because of the scepter.

[Danny Franks]

17 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

Jameela Jamil cast as Titania in Disney+'s She-Hulk.

I love this. Jamila is one of my favourite people and I hope this indicates that the She-Hulk show is going to lean towards Dan Slott's comedic interpretation of the character.

But she does claim to be the human equivalent of a memory foam mattress, so I'm guessing she'll need some CGI assistance to look like Titania (apart from the towering height, of course).

Edited June 11, 2021 by Danny Franks

[Perfect Xero]

20 hours ago, frenchtoast said:

I always assumed that's why everyone got all nasty with each other when Loki was imprisoned. They were all around the scepter and arguing in small groups. It wasn't outright stated, but as the fights progress, the camera flips and focuses on the scepter as if to point out that the scepter was the source of the conflict. It would make sense that it was also affecting Loki. 

I've always thought that the weirdest thing about Age of Ultron is that they don't handle that scepter like it's radioactive material after the events of Avengers 1.

[Spartan Girl]

Maybe the staff did affect everyone. But I don’t want to give Loki a pass on his behavior, not when he’s FINALLY being honest about himself on the show.

Anyhoo…

I’m really curious how they’re going to handle the Thor/Jane stuff in Love and Thunder. I know that pairing was unpopular here, but if it’s going to follow the “Jane getting cancer” storyline, Thor is definitely the kind of ex who would show up for support.

 

[Avabelle]

Are Jane and Thor unpopular? Aww I always liked them. 

[Spartan Girl]

I liked them too. Hoping that the breakup was mutual and amicable even if they wind up getting back together.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I laughed so loud I scared the dogs.

[Spartan Girl]

LMAO Oh Drax 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Ravenya003]

On 6/12/2021 at 11:25 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Maybe the staff did affect everyone. But I don’t want to give Loki a pass on his behavior, not when he’s FINALLY being honest about himself on the show.

Anyhoo…

I’m really curious how they’re going to handle the Thor/Jane stuff in Love and Thunder. I know that pairing was unpopular here, but if it’s going to follow the “Jane getting cancer” storyline, Thor is definitely the kind of ex who would show up for support.

 

As long as we avoid a love triangle (square?) since Thor has been mildly ship teased with Valkryrie AND Sif in-canon, we'll be fine. 

It's Taika Waititi, I trust him. Fingers crossed he has the ladies interact extensively with each other. I'm especially excited about getting Sif back since incredibly, she's the only original Asgardian supporting character still standing. (Not counting Loki).

[Spartan Girl]

9 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

As long as we avoid a love triangle (square?) since Thor has been mildly ship teased with Valkryrie AND Sif in-canon, we'll be fine. 

It's Taika Waititi, I trust him. Fingers crossed he has the ladies interact extensively with each other. I'm especially excited about getting Sif back since incredibly, she's the only original Asgardian supporting character still standing. (Not counting Loki).

I’m looking forward to that too. As long as Jane doesn’t have her character completely destroyed to justify ending up with Sif or Valkyrie like another Marvel woman I could mention, I’ll be fine with whatever happens.

However, I’m doubtful Valkyrie is going to end up with Thor. Taika Waitiri and Tessa Thompson said she was a king looking for a queen, and unless Thor changes his mind about being done with ruling, he doesn’t fit the bill.

[Raja]

After making a deal about Valkyrie's status there is about a zero chance that she ends up with the man that all the women of the MCU swoon over

[FnkyChkn34]

I like Thor with Sif, but I know I'm in the minority.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

However, I’m doubtful Valkyrie is going to end up with Thor. Taika Waitiri and Tessa Thompson said she was a king looking for a queen, and unless Thor changes his mind about being done with ruling, he doesn’t fit the bill.

There's some fan canon about Valkyrie and Carol, but that's unlikely to be entertained, at least for now. Though Thor as wingman would be interesting.

[FnkyChkn34]

3 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

There's some fan canon about Valkyrie and Carol, but that's unlikely to be entertained, at least for now. Though Thor as wingman would be interesting.

Pardon my ignorance, but I have a question - how can something be "fan canon?"   Is it not either "canon," which comes straight from the creators, or "fan fiction," which is the fans' wild/weird/hopeful fantasies?

Edited June 14, 2021 by FnkyChkn34
fixed typo

[swanpride]

I think it was supposed to mean "fanon" (basically stuff fans have widely agreed to be a thing and which sometimes either becomes canon - i.e. Bucky killing Howard - or at least being acknowledged by WoG - i.e. Peter being the little boy Tony rescues at the Stark Expo). 

Thus said, I don't think that Thor/Valkyrie is in any way Canon. She clearly has zero interest in him, honestly she seemed to be more into Hulk than him. And Sif, well, that is canon, but only as a one-sided thing, and Sif has never actually sabotaged any of Thor's desires in any way. 

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, swanpride said:

Thus said, I don't think that Thor/Valkyrie is in any way Canon. She clearly has zero interest in him, honestly she seemed to be more into Hulk than him. And Sif, well, that is canon, but only as a one-sided thing, and Sif has never actually sabotaged any of Thor's desires in any way

I agree. I think Sif and Valkyrie are more likely to end up with each other than Thor.

[Ravenya003]

7 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I agree. I think Sif and Valkyrie are more likely to end up with each other than Thor.

I actually totally forgot about the publicity surrounding Valkyrie's bisexuality; regarding Thor I was referencing the moment when they both jump on the Grandmaster's ship from opposite sides, nearly bump into each other, and have a little "held gaze" moment. I read that as a subtle but largely irrelevant shippy moment; a thread they could or could not pick up on in later movies if they so chose. 

But yeah, what with an openly gay character in The Eternals, hopefully Marvel will be okay with Valkyrie having a same-sex on-screen love interest. Which begs the question, who will it be? A preexisting character or someone new?