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The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

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I have read enough soldiers memoirs to believe that women would have offered themselves to Captain America just as police and firefighters have their groupies who are easily found should they want it today. On the other hand not being in a traditional unit there would have been no old soldiers pressuring young troopers to visit a prostitutes' so that he doesn't lose kids that are still virgins in combat.  I guess it comes down to what Steve believed about the one God who doesn't dress like that.

If there was some woman who was Steve's pre serum  girlfriend then she would have to be fridged rather than have high and mighty Captain America drop her for Peggy.

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I mean, Steve is no monk, he certainly did some kissing and grouping, despite Natasha's suggestions. But I also don't see him having sex without any emotional connections. And there are only a handful of people with whom he has this kind of connection. 

I can imagine that he had a fling or two other than Sharon Carter, But honestly, even if he had been a virgin, who cares? 

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8 hours ago, Raja said:

If there was some woman who was Steve's pre serum  girlfriend then she would have to be fridged rather than have high and mighty Captain America drop her for Peggy.

Yeah, because Steve would never make out with a girl only to dump her when he thought he has a shot with Peggy. Oh wait…

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1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Yeah, because Steve would never make out with a girl only to dump her when he thought he has a shot with Peggy. Oh wait…

To be fair, that blonde laid a kiss on him; he didn’t initiate that kiss. And kissing someone doesn’t equal going steady.

So saying he would have dumped that blonde isn’t quite accurate. 

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1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

To be fair, that blonde laid a kiss on him; he didn’t initiate that kiss. And kissing someone doesn’t equal going steady.

So saying he would have dumped that blonde isn’t quite accurate. 

Oh, I wasn’t talking about Natalie Dormer’s character in TFA. I was talking about the other blonde and while you’re about kissing not meaning dating, Steve did initiate that kiss.

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I never really gave much thought to Steve's love life after he woke up. I think there was supposed to be something between him and that blonde waitress in 2012 Avengers (cut so not canon). My takeaway has always been Steve was a Virgin pre-serum and lost his virginity at some point before kissing Nat in Winter Soldier.  Beyond that I never really cared or thought that much about it.

I will say this, MCU Capt seems more like a Dudley Do Right than Comics Captain. 

Edited by Morrigan2575
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On 7/26/2021 at 11:43 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

That's not to say that Steve was a virgin before the serum.  Pre-serum Steve was a genuinely nice guy and kind.  He had a lot of good qualities even though his body was imperfect.   Many women are willing to overlook an imperfect body.  

Pre-serum Steve all but comes right out and tells Peggy that he is a virgin. Never been dancing, never been on a date, 'this is the longest conversation I've ever had with a woman' - and that was on the journey to get the serum. Yeah, he doesn't say it in in so many words, but pre-serum Steve was definitely a virgin. Post-serum...I can't say I've ever really thought about it, one way or the other. He tells Natasha in Winter Solder that he has kissed since coming out of the ice, but offers no more detail than that!

 

Edited by Llywela · Reason: stupid forum duplicated my post!
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On 7/27/2021 at 8:49 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Oh, I wasn’t talking about Natalie Dormer’s character in TFA. I was talking about the other blonde and while you’re about kissing not meaning dating, Steve did initiate that kiss.

No need to by coy. It was Sharon. And again, just because he kissed her, doesn't mean they were a couple. I find the idea of Steve and Sharon just icky. Lost chance with Peggy, oh, look, here's Sharon, her grand niece.

Then again, I'm no fan of the the MCU's Sharon, and even more so, do NOT like the actress at all. So I'm not too upset that nothing more happened with those two. And if others believe she was "dumped", I say, I don't care. 

I've said it before, Steve Rogers/Captain America is my favorite character in the MCU, and I'm still peeved the writers let Sharon shit on his character in the series. She can SHUT IT. Too bad Rumlow’s dead. She could have hooked up with him, considering her attitude and the revisionist history she was spewing.

Yeah. I really dislike her.

Edited by GHScorpiosRule
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2 hours ago, Llywela said:

Pre-serum Steve all but comes right out and tells Peggy that he is a virgin. Never been dancing, never been on a date, 'this is the longest conversation I've ever had with a woman' - and that was on the journey to get the serum. Yeah, he doesn't say it in in so many words, but pre-serum Steve was definitely a virgin. Post-serum...I can't say I've ever really thought about it, one way or the other. He tells Natasha in Winter Solder that he has kissed since coming out of the ice, but offers no more detail than that!

 

That conversation doesn't make any sense to me when it comes after the movie has Steve go on a double date with Bucky.  Steve did not choose the woman in question, he went as Bucky's wingman, and Steve ignored the poor girl, but that was a date.  

The biggest problem is Marvel deciding to make their heroes sexless except for the Starks.  Then they try to force a "great love" onto the heroes without any sexual tension or build up.  It also feels like they have different writers working on different parts of the scripts and those writers never compare notes.  

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13 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

That conversation doesn't make any sense to me when it comes after the movie has Steve go on a double date with Bucky.  Steve did not choose the woman in question, he went as Bucky's wingman, and Steve ignored the poor girl, but that was a date.  

There is a world of difference between making a date with a girl yourself (which involves actually interacting with her to the point where she agrees to said date) and being set up on a blind (double) date by a friend who a) feels sorry for you, and b) wants to hook up himself but needs a spare partner for his own girl's friend!

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1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Steve ignored the poor girl,

I remember it the other way around.  The girl didn’t want to have anything to do with him and spent her time drooling over Bucky, so he finally wandered off on his own.  

ETA: here’s the clip.  So in fairness she was not drooling over Bucky - I misremembered that - but she was definitely giving Steve the cold shoulder, and that look she gave him when he offered her popcorn said “how dare you talk to me.”  So I don’t blame him for leaving.  

 

Edited by Starfish35
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I can honestly say that until today, just 5 minutes ago  - as I was reading through the posts on this thread that I've missed in the past week or so - I have never once given a thought to Steve's virginity.  Why does it matter?  And who honestly cares enough to make this a hot topic that the directors feel they need to answer?  

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3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Steve ignored the poor girl, but that was a date.  

...more the girl ignored him. He tried to be nice to her, but she was clearly showing him the cold shoulder.

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10 minutes ago, swanpride said:

...more the girl ignored him. He tried to be nice to her, but she was clearly showing him the cold shoulder.

I could be remembering it wrong, I haven't watched the movie in ages.  

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I don't know, Steve clearly wasn't all that successful with women pre-serum, but I wouldn't take that as proof he'd never had sex. He was a teenager once, even if it was during the Great Depression, and we have canonical reference to him and Bucky going out with girls in Brooklyn on more than just the one occasion shown in the first movie.

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3 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I don't know, Steve clearly wasn't all that successful with women pre-serum, but I wouldn't take that as proof he'd never had sex. He was a teenager once, even if it was during the Great Depression, and we have canonical reference to him and Bucky going out with girls in Brooklyn on more than just the one occasion shown in the first movie.

You are talking about a pre birth control pill shotgun marriage era of society. I'm not saying impossible just less likely than Greg and Marcia Brady having premarital sex 

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7 hours ago, Raja said:

You are talking about a pre birth control pill shotgun marriage era of society. I'm not saying impossible just less likely than Greg and Marcia Brady having premarital sex 

It's NYC.  My grandfather was around the same age as Steve and Bucky in NYC, and I know he had multiple sexual partners before meeting my grandmother.  And my grandfather was not a looker, but he sure did snag himself some ladies.  I may or may not have an aunt or uncle living in Scotland from my grandfather's adventures during the war.  All I know is he kept a picture of a woman holding a baby with "Ellie 1945" written on the back for decades. 

It is very possible that pre-serum Steve could have fooled around with some ladies.  The real problem is the filmmakers would never have their hero having casual sex with the kind of woman who would be attracted to pre-serum Steve.  in their minds, better to have their hero be an awkward virgin before than a man who was willing to have sex with less than perfect women.  

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I think the issue is more that back then, it simply wasn't the proper thing to do. Bucky is quite a flirt, but even with him I kind of doubt that he had that much experience. 

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A lot of recent MCU projects have been attempts to retrofit established characters with more of their comics persona/backstory (e.g., Zemo now suddenly being a rich baron).  This one seems like a particularly big lift, since there's a chasm between the MCU Hawkeye and the Matt Fraction Hawkeye comics that this is so blatantly drawing from.

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3 hours ago, SeanC said:

A lot of recent MCU projects have been attempts to retrofit established characters with more of their comics persona/backstory (e.g., Zemo now suddenly being a rich baron).  This one seems like a particularly big lift, since there's a chasm between the MCU Hawkeye and the Matt Fraction Hawkeye comics that this is so blatantly drawing from.

My guess is they'll have Clint training Kate as redemption for Ronin.

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11 hours ago, SeanC said:

A lot of recent MCU projects have been attempts to retrofit established characters with more of their comics persona/backstory (e.g., Zemo now suddenly being a rich baron).  This one seems like a particularly big lift, since there's a chasm between the MCU Hawkeye and the Matt Fraction Hawkeye comics that this is so blatantly drawing from.

Yeah, I don't quite see how rural family man, Clint Barton, is going to manage living in the city and training a young protege. Nothing about Renner's Barton fits Fraction's storyline at all. The charm, the insouciance, the recklessness, it's all rooted in 616 Clint's personality and backstory.

It's a shame, because that Matt Fraction storyline is excellent, but Jeremy Renner's version of the character is really fucking dull and the movie's interpretation of Ronin as a vigilante - just ruthlessly murdering dozens of gangsters because he was angry - was really unsympathetic. I'll probably watch it for Hailee Steinfeld's Kate Bishop.

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Yeah, Kate is an awesome character in her own right and may well turn out to be worth watching the series for. But the dumpster fire that's MCU Clint Barton isn't redeemable in my opinion. I wish that rather than shackling her to Renner's character they'd just proceeded with a Young Avengers story where she's usurping his costumed identity.

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10 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

Yeah, Kate is an awesome character in her own right and may well turn out to be worth watching the series for. But the dumpster fire that's MCU Clint Barton isn't redeemable in my opinion. I wish that rather than shackling her to Renner's character they'd just proceeded with a Young Avengers story where she's usurping his costumed identity

Makes you wonder how much that's actually happening in MCU and how often the following pops up in the paper: Idiot dresses up like Hawkeye/Captain America/Black Widow/etc., tries to fight crime, found dead

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Well I just finished binge-watching WandaVision.  It’s been on my watch list for months and I’m just now getting around to it.

For a show I wasn’t all that excited about, I got surprisingly into it, and it’s actually gotten me interested in seeing the next Doctor Strange movie.  Which, seeing as how I really didn’t care for the first one all that much, is kind of surprising.  I’ve always supported Wanda, especially since I felt like she unfairly got the majority of the blame for what happened in Lagos (as we’ve discussed previously in this thread).  But I was never all that invested in the character.  Now I am.  Definitely am.  A lot of people will probably reject this comparison, but in a lot of ways I was reminded of Buffy Summers, another of my favorite heroines (Whedon not withstanding, ugh).  That was another super powerful woman who just wanted a normal life with a family, but just kept getting kicked in the teeth by her life.  

I’m not saying that what Wanda did to the people of Westview was ok; it definitely was anything but.  But I understand it.  And I’m definitely invested in seeing the next part of the Scarlet Witch’s journey.  And also Monica’s; that definitely upped my interest in Captain Marvel 2. 

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FYI...

What If...? Is Officially MCU Canon
By Joe Skrebels   Aug 3, 2021
https://www.ign.com/articles/what-if-marvel-mcu-canon-multiverse 

Quote

Speaking to IGN, What If...? head writer AC Bradley made it very clear that, despite its animated style and anthology premise, everything in the show is being considered as canon. "The events of What If...? are canon. It's part of the MCU multiverse. The multiverse is here. It is real, and it is absolutely fantastic, people."

Also:

Edited by tv echo

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Eh, the idea of anything being canon when you have a multiverse is kind of redundant. Unless those other universes cross over with the MCU they're still just alternate storylines. Would I have any complaints if, for example, Hayley Atwell's Captain America appeared in an MCU movie? Absolutely not (though I'm not as keen on her after finding out she's probably dating Tom Cruise).

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Disney+ has added 3 new Marvel Studios: Legends episodes (Peggy Carter, The Avengers Initiative, The Ravagers)...

Marvel Studios' Legends | Disney+
Marvel Entertainment   Aug 4, 2021

The Marvel Studios: Legends series on Disney+ now includes the following 12 episodes:

1. Wanda Maximoff
2. Vision
3. Falcon
4. The Winter Soldier
5. Zemo
6. Sharon Carter
7. Loki
8. The Tesseract
9. Black Widow
10. Peggy Carter
11. The Avengers Initiative
12. The Ravagers

Edited by tv echo

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6 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

though I'm not as keen on her after finding out she's probably dating Tom Cruise

Really? 😳 Oh Hayley no.  

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26 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Really? 😳 Oh Hayley no.  

Sadly, I already wasn't a fan of Hayley before this, for reasons I don't want to get into on this thread, but this is just the cherry on top.

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12 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I'm not as keen on her after finding out she's probably dating Tom Cruise).

I thought that was just publicity for their new movie

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9 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I thought that was just publicity for their new movie

For her sake I hope so.  Ugh. 

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I don't want to go into the Black Widow thread for this question since I don't want to be spoiled, but I am very curious. Originally, I am sure it was 30 days that it would be on Disney+ at a premium, then available to all subscribers. Then Scarlett Johanson filed her lawsuit, which I understand was based on her contract (pre-covid) requiring 90 days in theaters. Now, when I look at it on Disney+, it says October 6 for general release for 90 days. Is this because of the suit, have I missed something, or is there something else going on?

Thanks for anyone who can clear this up for me.

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I’m pretty sure it always said it would be available to regular subscribers in October.  

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Yeah, @Starfish35, that would be my assumption - other movies that started with premier access on Disney+ (Mulan, Raya and the Last Dragon) have become available to all subscribers after 90 days. I think maybe it's Paramount+ that does a 30-day window?

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3 minutes ago, angora said:

Yeah, @Starfish35, that would be my assumption - other movies that started with premier access on Disney+ (Mulan, Raya and the Last Dragon) have become available to all subscribers after 90 days. I think maybe it's Paramount+ that does a 30-day window?


I think the P+ window is 45 days- but yes, Disney has been 3 months.  On the BW thread, I speculated that that could (or maybe should) be part of why she’s suing.  TLDR from that post- it used to be a long time before movies were “free” on cable or whatever.  Therefore, there was an incentive for, let’s say, casual viewers to go to theaters - even in later weeks - if they wanted to see them while they were still hot.  Now, I think at least some of those people are just waiting out the streaming window.

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How What If Fits Into The Multiverse Of The Marvel Cinematic Universe
ERIC EISENBERG   AUG. 5. 2021
https://www.cinemablend.com/television/2571505/how-what-if-fits-into-multiverse-marvel-cinematic-universe

Quote

But what is the relationship between the various What If chapters and the MCU? Are they designed to be wholly separate from the canon first established with Jon Favreau’s Iron Man, or do the different adventures play out in alternate realities that run parallel in a larger Marvel multiverse? According to producer Brad Winderbaum, there isn’t an “official” answer to the question at the moment, but things do seem to be leaning toward the latter.

Speaking with the filmmaker this past weekend during the virtual press day for What If, I asked directly about how Marvel Studios views the relationship between their animated series and the live-action movies/shows, and he explained,

"Well, I think you're asking a very philosophical question, and it's something we are defining right now and will continue to define in the stories as we explore the multiverse. And that is, you know, what is it? What is the multiverse, and how do stories that take place in other realities impact the 'Sacred Timeline,' as the TVA would call it? And without going into detail, I could tell you 'quite a bit' is the answer."

 

Edited by tv echo

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The MCU's major characters have been so perfectly cast (imo) that it's interesting to learn who else might've played those roles...

MCU: 10 Actors From The Franchise Who Auditioned For Different Roles
BY COLE ALBINDER    AUGUST 7, 2021
https://www.cbr.com/mcu-actors-auditioned-different-roles/ 

Quote

When being considered for the first Guardians of the Galaxy, Lee Pace had originally auditioned for the film's protagonist Peter Quill/Star-Lord. While that role went to Chris Pratt, director James Gunn enjoyed Pace's audition so much that he cast the actor as antagonist Ronan the Accuser. While Pace is an incredibly charismatic actor, it's not hard to imagine how different his Star-Lord would have been from Pratt's, and he might have come across as too charming for the character. However, Pratt can sell Peter's immature man-child aspect while still being adorable, so both castings worked out overall.


10/10 Lee Pace (Ronan The Accuser) Could Have Been A Guardian [Peter Quill/Star Lord]
9/10  Djimon Hounsou (Korath The Pursuer) Wasn't Tall Enough For Drax
8/10  Anthony Mackie's Iron Man 3 Audition [for The Mandarin] Led To His Sam Wilson Casting
7/10  Wilson Bethel (Benjamin Poindexter/Bullseye) Came Close To Being Steve Rogers
6/10  Karen Gillan Almost Nabbed The Role Of Sharon Carter
5/10  The Role Of Nebula Almost Went To Lupita Nyong'o
4/10  Had Things Worked Out Differently, The U.S. Agent [Wyatt Russell] Could Have Been Cap[tain America/Steve Rogers]
3/10  Chadwick Boseman Auditioned For Drax Before Becoming King Of Wakanda
2/10  Chris Pratt Read For The Star-Spangled Man [Captain America] Before Being Cast As Star-Lord
1/10  Bucky [Sebastian Stan] Almost Wielded The Vibranium Shield Himself [as Captain America]

Edited by tv echo
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49 minutes ago, tv echo said:

6/10  Karen Gillan Almost Nabbed The Role Of Sharon Carter

Man Karen Gillan kind of dodged a bullet there. Sharon Carter is kind of a boring background character who didn't really do much. Meanwhile Nebula was an important character who had possibly one of the best story arcs in the entire Infinity Saga.

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3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Man Karen Gillan kind of dodged a bullet there. Sharon Carter is kind of a boring background character who didn't really do much

I wonder could a more charismatic actress have made Sharon work. I like Van Camp in roles I’ve seen her play on tv but felt she was miscast.

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I don't think Karen Gillan could have made "Rest in peace, Aunt Peggy. Now, gimme some sugar before I embark on a career as a traitorous crime lord!" work. The writing had much more to do with the failure of Sharon Carter than Emily Van Camp's performance did.

Similarly, Ronan is the only less-than-excellent performance I've seen from Lee Pace over the 18 years I've been watching him, so I assume it was intrinsic to the character and no one could have overcome the writing/direction to make that dialogue sound natural.

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1 minute ago, Bruinsfan said:

The writing had much more to do with the failure of Sharon Carter than Emily Van Camp's performance did.

The writers could have made Sharon work if they hadn’t siphoned off so much of her character to Peggy and Natasha, because apparently they can’t have more than one cool spy heroine at a time. Or, you know, used material that was actually in the damn comics instead of pulling a shock villain twist out of their ass. That’s the hill I’ll die on.

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3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

The writers could have made Sharon work if they hadn’t siphoned off so much of her character to Peggy and Natasha, because apparently they can’t have more than one cool spy heroine at a time. Or, you know, used material that was actually in the damn comics instead of pulling a shock villain twist out of their ass. That’s the hill I’ll die on.

I feel like the ass kicking, hot looking lady spy has been done to death by Marvel (between all the Shield agents on the show and in the movies, Nakia in BP and now all the Black Widows) and Sharon Carter is easily the least interesting.

I even kind of feel like they could have given her entire storyline in Winter Solider and Civil War to Maria Hill and other than having to change the secret neighbor and Peggy's nice thing it hardly would have made any difference (and possibly would have been better). So I am actually looking forward to the idea of her being a traitorous Shield agent since that actually sounds like something different.

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48 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

So I am actually looking forward to the idea of her being a traitorous Shield agent since that actually sounds like something different.

Plus Van Camp excels at those kind of grey characters with a justified chip on their shoulder. 

 

4 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

The writing had much more to do with the failure of Sharon Carter than Emily Van Camp's performance did.

Sorry I should have clarified In my earlier post I also thought the writing was terrible and the character never gelled regardless. I do wonder could a more charismatic actress have done more. I feel the same about her Maria Hill, I don’t like the actress and find her bland and the character has always been meh to me.

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I enjoy van Camp. He certainly made the most out of the scenes she got. But what she got so far is just terrible material. Her whole story makes zero sense, unless you go for "she got replaced by a rogue scrull". 

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4 hours ago, swanpride said:

I enjoy van Camp. He certainly made the most out of the scenes she got. But what she got so far is just terrible material. Her whole story makes zero sense, unless you go for "she got replaced by a rogue scrull". 

Thank U Reaction GIF by MOODMAN
 

I don’t mind villain heel turns when they’re good. Sometimes they’re at least entertaining when they’re lousy. But what they did to Sharon wasn’t even good enough to be lousy. And FYI I think the “MCU needs more female  villains” explanation is a poor excuse. Why is it when someone complains about an MCU character being “boring/bland” they’re usually talking about one of the female characters? Don’t seem to recall much complaining about any male characters being boring (except if they’re villains).

And whether you like Emily or not, she did at least bone up on the comics to get all the info she could on Comics Sharon. Things might have been had she gotten to play the original version of the character.

At this point, I would have rather had Sharon being forgotten like poor Betty Ross instead of bringing her back as a villain.

Edited by Spartan Girl
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