The Marvel Cinematic Universe: The Avengers, etc.

[blueray]

AoS is still one of my favorites. The characters are what drove the show (not the budget or lack there of). I'd argue that Daisy is the main character followed by Coulson, May, Mack, yoyo. Fitz and Simmons are the heart of the show :). While my least favorite season is season 6, 7 was an improvement with the time travel & period sets. They do decrease in the "spy" stuff in general as the show goes on. As it becomes more of a sci-fi show, which isn't a bad thing by any means.

It is very different in tone and writing the then the Netflix shows. I still say the best and most constant was Daredevil. I even liked season 2. I do wish it got a fourth season!

Edited March 28, 2021 by blueray

[swanpride]

Daredevil was too repetitive for my taste. They basically told the same story three times. And the back half of the second season was terrible and imho the main reason why Defenders was such a mess. Because it had to deal with a f... mystery box.  

[Darlin]

I watched Luke Cage and have mixed feelings.  I loved the first half of season one, and that was mainly due to Mahershala Ali and what he did with the role he played (the name escapes me). Once his character left the show, the second half of season one was disappointing.  Alfre Woodard's Mariah was an emotional mess and I couldn't figure out if she was to be pitied or feared (and I hated her pseudo-love interest). And the villain they introduced to replace Mahershala Ali was too cartoonish for the otherwise grounded Luke Cage. Mahershala Ali made that show for me. Bring on Blade!  

Then came season 2.  I never finished season 2.  Something was very off  with season 2 and I just gave up on the show.

I tried to watch Dare Devil and just couldn't get into it. I never even bothered with Iron Fist.

I had always intended to watch Jessica Jones but never got around to it.  I suppose it's pointless now.

[Raja]

53 minutes ago, Darlin said:

 

I had always intended to watch Jessica Jones but never got around to it.  I suppose it's pointless now.

In the general "is it canon" discussions I wonder is the worth that a character from a show make an appearance in a movie? Or is the thought that the character is so important that Feige will reboot just that character for an appearance before the MCU as a whole entity is rebooted? So in effect beyond just watching a show it has to tie in.

[Starfish35]

Agent Carter is the only one of the Marvel TV shows I’ve ever finished to date (with the caveat that I have not yet had time to sit down and watch either WandaVision or F&tWS, despite my best intentions), and is definitely my favorite, though I do understand the complaints about the second season.   I watched a couple episodes of Daredevil and about an episode and a half of Jessica Jones before deciding they weren’t for me, and never tried any of the other Netflix shows.  I did watch a season of Runaways but didn’t really have any interest in keeping up with it after that, and I do mean to eventually get around to watching the second season of Cloak & Dagger, but it just hasn’t happened yet.

As for AoS, I watched through the third season, but found myself increasingly frustrated with some of the choices they made that season, and since Bobbi and Lance had been written out (for a spin-off that never happened) I decided it was a good time to sign off. I’ve thought occasionally about picking it up again, but right now I have many other things that I’m trying to get around to watching that it’s pretty far down the list.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Starfish35

[Kel Varnsen]

9 hours ago, blueray said:

AoS is still one of my favorites. The characters are what drove the show (not the budget or lack there of). I'd argue that Daisy is the main character followed by Coulson, May, Mack, yoyo. Fitz and Simmons are the heart of the show :). While my least favorite season is season 6, 7 was an improvement with the time travel & period sets. They do decrease in the "spy" stuff in general as the show goes on. As it becomes more of a sci-fi show, which isn't a bad thing by any means.

It is very different in tone and writing the then the Netflix shows. I still say the best and most constant was Daredevil. I even liked season 2. I do wish it got a fourth season!

I think the characters are what kept me at least a little invested in Agents of Shield. And I agree that season 6 was the worst. I would much rather watch a spy show than the crazy space nonsense that was that season. Although season wasn't much better, and seemed to further prove what I have thought, that it is nearly impossible to tell a really good time travel story.

As for Daredevil I liked the different time and how it was more adult oriented. They kept that up with Jessica Jones and sort of with Punisher so I don't know why LUke Cage and Iron Fist didn't. The only way Luke Cage took advantage of the streaming format was by having episodes that were way too long.

7 hours ago, swanpride said:

Daredevil was too repetitive for my taste. They basically told the same story three times. And the back half of the second season was terrible and imho the main reason why Defenders was such a mess. Because it had to deal with a f... mystery box.  

The main reason that Defenders was such a mess was because of how much they relied on Iron Fist when both the show and the character sucked.

3 hours ago, Darlin said:

I watched Luke Cage and have mixed feelings.  I loved the first half of season one, and that was mainly due to Mahershala Ali and what he did with the role he played (the name escapes me). Once his character left the show, the second half of season one was disappointing.  Alfre Woodard's Mariah was an emotional mess and I couldn't figure out if she was to be pitied or feared (and I hated her pseudo-love interest). And the villain they introduced to replace Mahershala Ali was too cartoonish for the otherwise grounded Luke Cage. Mahershala Ali made that show for me. Bring on Blade!  

Then came season 2.  I never finished season 2.  Something was very off  with season 2 and I just gave up on the show.

The biggest problem I had with Luke Cage was how boring it was. As I mentioned above the episodes were way too long. Plus it never made sense to me how everyone in New York knew about Cage's power but every time he crossed paths with some criminal goon that goon would try to have a fist fights with him. After the second or third time that happened it got really dumb.

[xaxat]

Can someone help me out? When  Infinity War was released, was it public knowledge that it was part one of two? 

When I saw it in the theater, I didn't know and I am so glad I didn't. 

[swanpride]

Iron Fist had it's problem, but it was Daredevil, not Iron Fist, which put a giant plot hole under New York. The whole Elektra story was terrible, too. The stuff which Iron Fist introduced, like the idea that there were five fractions of the hand, actually worked quite well in the Defenders, as did Colleen's role. What didn't work was pretty much EVERYTHING which was related to Daredevil (minus the interaction between Matt and Jessica, that one was fun). I am still no over the idiotic decision to leave Danny alone with Stick of all people, even though Matt knows perfectly well how f... up Stick's thinking is.

[Raja]

15 minutes ago, xaxat said:

Can someone help me out? When  Infinity War was released, was it public knowledge that it was part one of two? 

When I saw it in the theater, I didn't know and I am so glad I didn't. 

As I recall the only thing in question was what the title of part 2 would be.

[Danny Franks]

14 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The biggest problem I had with Luke Cage was how boring it was. As I mentioned above the episodes were way too long. Plus it never made sense to me how everyone in New York knew about Cage's power but every time he crossed paths with some criminal goon that goon would try to have a fist fights with him. After the second or third time that happened it got really dumb.

It was definitely boring. Mike Colter had a great look for the character but he had no charisma at all and really couldn't sell the 'cool, man about town' vibe that they were going for, in a sort of modern pastiche of blaxploitation. The show had some potential with Mahershala Ali as the bad guy, but getting rid of him early on so they could have superpowered fights between Luke and his step-brother over who their dad loved more was incredibly lame.

The central theme of Daredevil season one - that of the concept of gentrification and who it benefits - was really interesting. The idea that Fisk thought the only way to improve a neighbourhood was to replace the people that lived there, while Matt was all about protecting the people and helping them, felt incredibly relevant to our age. I'm sure most people live in places that have areas of gentrification nearby, and debates about whether it's good or bad. 

It lost its way a bit in season two, with all the ninja fights, but Elektra worked well as a character and the introduction of the Punisher is the best version of that character I've ever seen. He was dangerous, unhinged and absolutely not a hero, or someone to be idolised. It felt like a deconstruction of the 'Punisher is so cool!' mythos that idiot bros have of a character they've never read. Then season one of The Punisher continued that, although the focus on his tragic past gave him to a whole different audience - the woobie brigade who think he just needs a good woman to fix him.

Season three was great, and starting to explore Karen Page's depths in ways that gave Deborah Ann Woll more to do without getting into gross, Frank Miller territory. It's a shame the show was cancelled, because it was perfectly set up to continue, giving Matt new villains and a support team who were actively aware of his vigilantism.

If any of the characters were to transition to the main MCU, it should be Cox's Daredevil, D'Onofrio's Fisk and Bernthal's Punisher. Those three were absolutely perfect casting and could be valuable additions to any movie or show set in New York.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Danny Franks

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

If any of the characters were to transition to the main MCU, it should be Cox's Daredevil, D'Onofrio's Fisk and Bernthal's Punisher. Those three were absolutely perfect casting and could be valuable additions to any movie or show set in New York.

From your keyboard to Fiege's eyes 😁. 

[benteen]

Daredevil was the best of the Marvel Netflix series and probably Marvel's best series to date.  The Hand was an absolutely awful villain and a definite drain on things.  They were less effective than stormtroopers and it was a real mistake to make the big threat leading into Defenders.  At least with how badly they were written.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

was definitely boring. Mike Colter had a great look for the character but he had no charisma at all and really couldn't sell the 'cool, man about town' vibe that they were going for, in a sort of modern pastiche of blaxploitation. The show had some potential with Mahershala Ali as the bad guy, but getting rid of him early on so they could have superpowered fights between Luke and his step-brother over who their dad loved more was incredibly lame.

The central theme of Daredevil season one - that of the concept of gentrification and who it benefits - was really interesting. The idea that Fisk thought the only way to improve a neighbourhood was to replace the people that lived there, while Matt was all about protecting the people and helping them, felt incredibly relevant to our age. I'm sure most people live in places that have areas of gentrification nearby, and debates about whether it's good or bad. 

It lost its way a bit in season two, with all the ninja fights, but Elektra worked well as a character and the introduction of the Punisher is the best version of that character I've ever seen. He was dangerous, unhinged and absolutely not a hero, or someone to be idolised. It felt like a deconstruction of the 'Punisher is so cool!' mythos that idiot bros have of a character they've never read. Then season one of The Punisher continued that, although the focus on his tragic past gave him to a whole different audience - the woobie brigade who think he just needs a good woman to fix him.

Agree with everything you just said. Anytime Luke Cage got in a fight after about the second episode it was stupid.Him fighting his brother wearing a laser tag suit was extra stupid (especially since they killed off a now 2 time Oscar winner to do it).  Why did no one ever think to try and poison him, or gas him or drown him. Or find a magic power person to fight him? I remember liking season 2 better than 1 I think because it was Like was sort of caught in the middle of other people's wars. I wonder how much better I would have liked it if the episodes were like 40 mins long or so like Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

As for the Punisher it was good too. And I also like how it got rid of a lot of that Punisher killing people is awesome attitude. I especially liked how Frank wasn't just a good person who went crazy when his family was killed. They didn't really dwell on it, but the fact that he was torturing executing prisoners in a war zone tells me he was messed up long before that.

And think of Jessica Jones I wonder why they even bothered with big villains after season 1. You weren't going to find someone better than killgrave. Plus most dramas don't have big villains. Just have the enemy be Jessica trying to live with her life and trauma. I have been thinking after watching F&tWS how I would totally watch the show even if it was just about Sam trying to save his family business and Bucky going to therapy. For Jessica Jones it could have been the same thing.

[swanpride]

Quote

Why did no one ever think to try and poison him, or gas him or drown him. Or find a magic power person to fight him?

Thing is, they actually DID think about it. Mariah actually listed all of this (minus the magic power) in the first season, but then none of this happens. That's why I agree that the second season was in this regard better, because there they did try to drown him and get to him by attacking people close to him and wasn't poison used at one point, too? Plus, I actually enjoy him and Danny together. Yeah, sue me, but I do think that they are both more interesting if they can play off someone else. Kind of like in the comics (plus, they are the only two Defenders where combining their powers actually makes for good fight scenes...Danny and Matt together are just two guys doing martial arts instead of one, Jessica and Luke together are just two powered people hitting hard instead of one, Jessica or Matt with anyone else doesn't really work out that well either, because they are both not good in fighting in a team, but Danny and Luke fighting together with Luke playing human shield and Danny swinging his fist around actually is kind of fun).

I soured on Punisher season one because of the one episode which was basically anti-weapon regulations propaganda. Second season started great with his new charge, but then lost its way with the whole Jigsaw BS.

And Jessica Jones, yeah, no point of adding a big villain, and truly not needed either.

Btw, the part of Defenders which worked the best was easily the stuff directly lifted from the comics.

Edited March 29, 2021 by swanpride

[BetterButter]

‘Thor: Love And Thunder’: Russell Crowe Lands Role In Sequel

[Morrigan2575]

3:10 to Yuma reunion? LOL

[Danny Franks]

I saw a picture of Russell Crowe and Chris Hemsworth on Hemsworth's Instagram. Crowe had a huge, grey beard, so I guess he's probably playing an Asgardian of some stripe.

I wondered if he might be playing the actor playing Odin, alongside Damon and Luke Hemsworth, but the IMDB page still has Sam Neill listed for that role.

[AimingforYoko]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

I wondered if he might be playing the actor playing Odin, alongside Damon and Luke Hemsworth, but the IMDB page still has Sam Neill listed for that role.

Knowing Taika (OK, I don't know him, but I am familiar with his sense of humor) he's probably playing Actor Loki glamoured as Odin.

[festivus]

Geez, how many people are going to be in this movie? Thor gonna be in it?

[Chyromaniac]

18 hours ago, xaxat said:

Can someone help me out? When  Infinity War was released, was it public knowledge that it was part one of two? 

When I saw it in the theater, I didn't know and I am so glad I didn't. 

I want to say that the very first announcement had them listed as Infinity War Part 1 & 2.  However, they fairly quickly changed that to Infinity War, and the untitled Avengers 4.  I don’t recall them even calling it Endgame until practically the last moment.  So basically, I’d say it was common knowledge that there would be 2 Avengers films - but that the title changes helped maintain the secrecy of what they would be about.  Like, it was theoretically possible that Thanos was going to be defeated in Infinity War, and that A4 would be something else entirely.  Personally, I’m very happy that wasn’t the case.

Otherwise, I believe the logic from Marvel for the title change was that they considered each film to be a complete story, and not just two halves.  Which, I think think is a reasonably fair argument - the end of Infinity War feels like a pretty decisive win for Thanos.  Sure, the story picks up again in Endgame- but the dusting of half the universe feels like an ending, not a cliffhanger.

[JessePinkman]

6 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I saw a picture of Russell Crowe and Chris Hemsworth on Hemsworth's Instagram. Crowe had a huge, grey beard, so I guess he's probably playing an Asgardian of some stripe.

I wondered if he might be playing the actor playing Odin, alongside Damon and Luke Hemsworth, but the IMDB page still has Sam Neill listed for that role.

Saw a theory that based on the villain he could be playing older Thor.

[Spartan Girl]

Rewatched Infinity War and I can't believe it took me this long to figure out that Strange gave the stone to Thanos to save Tony because he knew the one scenario where they won would be if Tony took the stones back from Thanos in Endgame five years later. That wouldn't have happened if Thanos had killed Tony (and maybe Strange) and just took the stone anyway.

[Chyromaniac]

Now that you mention it - it would’ve been fun to have a second Strange pop up in that scene to see it all play out.  Or did that happen, and I’ve just never noticed with all the other stuff going on?

[Kel Varnsen]

15 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Rewatched Infinity War and I can't believe it took me this long to figure out that Strange gave the stone to Thanos to save Tony because he knew the one scenario where they won would be if Tony took the stones back from Thanos in Endgame five years later. That wouldn't have happened if Thanos had killed Tony (and maybe Strange) and just took the stone anyway.

I realized something similar watching Endgame a few weeks ago. In the big fight at the end Hope van Dyne comes out of one of Dr. Strange's portals. But none of the Avengers had met her and Strange had probably never heard of her so how would he know to open a portal on the roof of some random San Francisco parkade just to get her. But then I remembered that Strange saw how it had to go down so would have known someone needed to get her.

[FnkyChkn34]

15 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Rewatched Infinity War and I can't believe it took me this long to figure out that Strange gave the stone to Thanos to save Tony because he knew the one scenario where they won would be if Tony took the stones back from Thanos in Endgame five years later. That wouldn't have happened if Thanos had killed Tony (and maybe Strange) and just took the stone anyway.

 

19 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I realized something similar watching Endgame a few weeks ago. In the big fight at the end Hope van Dyne comes out of one of Dr. Strange's portals. But none of the Avengers had met her and Strange had probably never heard of her so how would he know to open a portal on the roof of some random San Francisco parkade just to get her. But then I remembered that Strange saw how it had to go down so would have known someone needed to get her.

Dr. Strange knew all.  In his flash forward to the one out of 1,000,000+ times that they won, he would have known all of the people that he and Wong would need to portal in.  Did Dr. Strange ever meet Black Panther or Groot or half of them?  I feel like he didn't, but since he saw the future, he "met" them there.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 3/30/2021 at 11:00 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

I realized something similar watching Endgame a few weeks ago. In the big fight at the end Hope van Dyne comes out of one of Dr. Strange's portals. But none of the Avengers had met her and Strange had probably never heard of her so how would he know to open a portal on the roof of some random San Francisco parkade just to get her. But then I remembered that Strange saw how it had to go down so would have known someone needed to get her.

Yea I get that. I just think it's funny that left Titan with a bunch of heroes, then went to Wakanda and got a ton more (or sent Wong or someone), went to the Himalayas to get more sorcerers, they went to New Asgard to get a bunch of Asgardian, they went to outer space to get the Ravages and then someone went to San Francisco to just get Hope.

[Ailianna]

I think he could open the portals and contact the relevant people without actually going to each place. Getting her in the suit is more time consuming since she was on a roof without it and presumably didn't have it with her. But maybe she did since she was working on suit business.

[Raja]

The only folks formed up and ready to go when the Hulk snapped folks back were the snapped Avengers and Wakandans in their battle gear. Tony probably gave Pepper some jewelry that automatically incased her in nanotech armor, an upgrade from sending his suit to her when their home was attacked in Iron Man 3. 

Since the bullets from Falcon, War Machine and the Winter Soldier/White Wolf worked I have always thought that any standing army ready reaction force company would have made as much sense as the heroes that Wong grabbed up for the fight. In the extended universe discussions I thought that Luke Cage's USMC  skills would have been worth more than unbreakable skin and prison brawling experience. 

[Spartan Girl]

Watched Captain America The First Avenger and comparing the “Star Spangled Man” sequence to the one in TFATWS was something. It was always government propaganda, the only difference was that the 40s was about keeping people’s spirits up during the war, not to mention that Steve knew it was all smoke and mirrors and wasn’t exactly thrilled to be a part of it instead of actually fighting Nazis and HYDRA.

[Kel Varnsen]

Speaking of Captain America, I love Captain America The Winter Soldier, it's probably my favorite superhero movie and possibly one of my favourite movies. But I hate the part where Cap drops his shield to fight Batroc. It is basically just to show off, and for a guy who is supposed to be all about the mission it makes no sense. Plus it is basically the exact opposite of Captain Marvel blasting Yon-Rogg which was a way smarter move.

[swanpride]

Same here. Cap should be smarter than that.

[Spartan Girl]

Okay, I’m just gonna say it: Steve hanging on to that compass with Peggy’s picture was creepy. Hell, considering the fact that they weren’t even DATING when he started carrying it around was a bit of a red flag; I get that when Peggy saw it on the film reel she was flattered and didn’t take offense, but any other woman in her place might not see it that way.

But the fact that he was still carrying it around in Endgame was worse. That girl in the picture did not exist anymore. In those 70 years Peggy moved on with her life and changed — Agent Carter more than anything showed she was not the same woman Steve left behind when he went into the ice. She wasn’t “his girl” anymore — arguably, she never was. So it was like Steve wasn’t really carrying a torch for Peggy herself, but his memory of her. And that’s really off-putting.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[Abra]

54 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

She wasn’t “his girl” anymore — arguably, she never was. So it was like was Steve wasn’t really carrying a torch for Peggy herself, but his memory of her. And that’s really off-putting.

Yeah, but if you create an entire alternate reality at the right moment, where you can clone a woman to be your "girl" at a time when there hasn't been much chance for her to move on (from your one entire kiss and cumulative, what, two whole weeks of knowing each other?), then you're in like Flynn! /s 

[Spartan Girl]

21 minutes ago, Abra said:

Yeah, but if you create an entire alternate reality at the right moment, where you can clone a woman to be your "girl" at a time when there hasn't been much chance for her to move on (from your one entire kiss and cumulative, what, two whole weeks of knowing each other?), then you're in like Flynn! /s 

And that is basically why the compass picture (along with Endgame Steve) repulses me so much.

[festivus]

I think it's a bit farfetched that he would still have that compass in Endgame but it didn't bother me that he carried it in TFA. He clearly admired Peggy very much and she him. I don't think he would have if she had told him she wasn't interested. I did feel that expectation from both of them that there would be something more. We saw that picture of skinny Steve on Peg's desk in 1970 so she still kept him in her heart but she moved on and lived her life. I actually loved this as a love story and it was refreshing after the usual dud Marvel romances. Then the end of Endgame happened and they shit all over it. I actually see the fact that he couldn't let it go and was still hung up on it as a flaw, which would be fine, if that was acknowledged. Because he is only human. But I'm becoming more convinced that the problems with this ending will not be addressed. Marvel got their feel good moment and we all need to shut up and take our medicine and not bother with what the consequences are and how they affect others.  

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

So it was like was Steve wasn’t really carrying a torch for Peggy herself, but his memory of her. And that’s really off-putting.

This I agree with.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I’ve already said my piece about this, so won’t repeat myself. But I do wonder had Chris Evans decided to keep playing Steve, how this would have ended? I blame the writers for shitting on Steve.

But it’s done. Like I stated elsewhere, Steve is still my favorite character in the MCU.

Edited April 4, 2021 by GHScorpiosRule

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

And that is basically why the compass picture (along with Endgame Steve) repulses me so much.

The picture doesn't bother me that much. I am sure there were a ton of guys during WWIIwith pictures of "their girl back home" that they hardly knew.

What makes me laugh about Cap is in the support group scene in Endgame. He starts going on with his speech about going into the ice in 45. And you just know the other guys in the group are rolling their eyes and thinking "I've been coming here for over 4 years, not this damn story again".

[Spartan Girl]

25 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The picture doesn't bother me that much. I am sure there were a ton of guys during WWIIwith pictures of "their girl back home" that they hardly knew.

What makes me laugh about Cap is in the support group scene in Endgame. He starts going on with his speech about going into the ice in 45. And you just know the other guys in the group are rolling their eyes and thinking "I've been coming here for over 4 years, not this damn story again".

Yeah instead of that crap, why not share your own stories about the friends you lost that dusted instead of going on about the woman who lived a happy, long life and died BEFORE Thanos?! Not too sensitive there, Steve.

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Yeah instead of that crap, why not share your own stories about the friends you lost that dusted instead of going on about the woman who lived a happy, long life and died BEFORE Thanos?! Not too sensitive there, Steve.

It would be great if there was a bit at the end of that scene where one of other members of the group was a super New Yorker stereotype and said to someone else "here he goes, again with the stuck in the ice".

[Starfish35]

6 hours ago, Abra said:

from your one entire kiss and cumulative, what, two whole weeks of knowing each other?)

They knew each other a lot longer than that?  I know in TFA that time passes mainly as a montage of clearing out Hydra bases, but all those campaigns didn’t happen in weeks.  And from her relationship with the Howling Commandos in Agent Carter, it sounds like she was out in the field with them quite a bit.  We know she was at the very least involved with the planning.  There is quite a bit of time - I don’t know if we know how much, but it isn’t just a couple of weeks - between Steve rescuing Bucky and the POWs and him going down in the ice.  I think there was plenty of time for Steve and Peggy to get to know each other.  And as far as him still having the locket, there was all of, what, 6 years? 7? Between Steve being pulled out of the ice and Infinity War?  That’s not really all that much time to get over someone who’s the love of your life, especially since every time you about get your footing, it gets yanked out from under you again. 

This is not me defending the Endgame ending; I’m uncomfortable with it for multiple reasons.  It’s just that for me, none of them are anti-Steggy reasons.  As far as I’m concerned, Steggy is still my favorite MCU canon pairing.  

[Abra]

19 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

They knew each other a lot longer than that?  I know in TFA that time passes mainly as a montage of clearing out Hydra bases, but all those campaigns didn’t happen in weeks.

I don't mean it was only a matter of weeks between when they first met and when Steve went into the ice, but time they actually spent together in each other's presence - none of which involved being in an actual relationship.  And personally I find it creepy and depressing to think that someone you weren't even in a relationship with was "the love of your life" (no matter how hot their chemistry was in TFA). The years between The Avengers and Infinity War (where she'd been dead for two years) is more than enough time to get over someone you were never in a relationship with (to beat that dead horse) - if you have the good sense to move on, instead of building up a fantasy relationship in your head and never letting it go and trying to make people think it's romantic, which is exactly what Endgame Steve/the writers/the Russos did.

I remember thinking Agent Carter retconned the hell out of their "relationship" in the first season, most likely as a means to make the audience care about her and her life as they didn't trust us to do so because she's awesome. The Winter Soldier was very clear that Peggy had had an amazing life and she specifically told Steve that he needed to move on, and he was doing so. I think when the MCU failed spectacularly at making Sharon/Steve happen, and then when Chris Evans decided he was done with playing Steve, the MCU thought to create this LOML narrative to explain his ending since they decided not to kill him off.

Speaking of Endgame sucking and cloned women from alternate timelines being treated as the same person, I really hope the next Guardians of the Galaxy doesn't pull any alt-Gamora/Quill relationship crap. The Gamora that Peter knew is dead, and the one out there now somewhere is not the same person, and should be treated as the individual she is.

[Starfish35]

I guess I don’t believe they weren’t in a relationship.  They may not have been sleeping together, but they seemed to have an understanding as far as the standards of the time went.  And I’m not sure there’s any reason to believe that Peggy didn’t give Steve the locket pic.  She didn’t look surprised that he had it, just a bit sheepish that it got shown in front of her CO.   I didn’t think that Agent Carter retconned anything, just filled in some of the blanks.

I do think Steve was trying to move on, at the end of AoU.  But then CW happened, and the Accords, and he ended up having to go on the run for two years.  And then Thanos happened.  

*shrugs* Just my opinion.  Mileage will vary.  I do agree though that it probably wouldn’t have happened if Steve/Sharon hadn’t failed as badly as it did.   That, and they didn’t want to kill both Tony and Steve.  So once they decided to kill off Tony, they needed to find a way to remove Steve from the picture going forward without killing him. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Starfish35

[festivus]

2 hours ago, Abra said:

Speaking of Endgame sucking and cloned women from alternate timelines being treated as the same person, I really hope the next Guardians of the Galaxy doesn't pull any alt-Gamora/Quill relationship crap. The Gamora that Peter knew is dead, and the one out there now somewhere is not the same person, and should be treated as the individual she is.

I thought about that. This Gamora doesn't have the memories or the bonding with the others that original Gamora did. Hopefully they will not go there. I never found that relationship interesting, what I love in those movies is the found family aspect and Nebula & Gamora's relationship as sisters. I hope the focus stays there.

I found it farfetched that Steve still had that compass because it was in the ice 70 years. No way that picture survived. 

[swanpride]

Peggy and Steve knew each other for more than a year before he went down in ice. Steve encounters Erskin on June 14, 1943 and is send to a one week basic training program after that where he first encounters Peggy. The rescue of the men happens most likely in October but for sure fall of the same year. The montage actually shows missions during a whole year. Bucky falls off the train in Winter 1944/1945, and Steve dying is reported on March 5 1945. So when Steve and Peggy kiss they already know each other for quite some time.

And I don't think that Agent Carter actually retconned anything other than adding that she was behind the enemy lines with the howling commanders more often then The First Avengers suggests (where you see her is the basis camp but never in the "walking through the woods" scenes).

[Bill1978]

Quick question that the Falcon and Winter Soldier series has raised for me. Is Steve dead in the MCU present? Every one keeps talking about Steve in the past tense, especially when discussing Sam and the decision he made with the shield. I know that Chris Evans isn't available for the show but there are some plot points that could be solved/answered if one of the characters just rang Steve and asked him. No one has even just thrown out a 'Let's call Steve and ask him!' making me think Steve passed away between End Game and the start of this series.

[swanpride]

They are not really clear about it. It is possible that he is still alive but officially he died fighting Thanos. I mean, it is a little bit difficult to explain what actually happened to him. But I don't think that Marvel wants to go the "dead" route just yet because there is no reason to limit options for future stories.

I mean theoretically you could just put time through old Cap and he would be young again….

[Danny Franks]

The last we saw of Peggy Carter, she was still keeping a picture of Steve in her office in the 1970s. Moved on? Not so much. I find it weird how often people who complain about Steve's ending complain about him not giving Peggy any choice in the matter... while completely removing the idea that Peggy has a choice in the matter. She still gets to decide, when Steve reappears in her timeline, whether she wants to be with him or not. She still gets to have a life that she chooses - Steve or someone else - just as she'd have been able to choose if Steve never went into at ice at all.

As for Steve "abandoning" his friends, they're all adults, they all make their own choices and, regardless of what they might need from him, every single one of them would give him their blessing no matter what he chose to do.  They'd feel he earned it, after everything he's done (you know, saving the world restoring half of the universe's living things). Why is Bucky constantly reduced to a helpless woobie who can't cope without Steve's manly shoulder to cry on? Eh, I think I know the answer to that one. But we're now seeing that Bucky is coping as well as he could, even without Steve. Would he be doing any better if Steve was there? I don't think so. He'd still be full of guilt and want to make amends and feel like an alien who doesn't belong. And fuck, can you imagine how much worse he'd feel if Steve had said "I could go back and be with Peggy in a new reality, but I'm going to stay here to make sure you feel better"? As for Falcon, he would never allow anyone to say Steve owed him a thing. Sam is a grown man too, who makes his own decisions and has lived a life that didn't include Steve Rogers at all.

But I've said this a thousand times and I know that not one single person is going to be convinced otherwise, so I guess even writing this is pointless. 

Steve's ending is fine, in my opinion. Is it perfect? No. Can you pick holes in it if you want? Yes. But it's fine. It works for a comic book movie and it works as a cap to his hero's journey of a man who gave everything - including his chances of happiness - to be a hero to others, then got his happy ending.

[Spartan Girl]

Just because she kept a picture of Steve in her office doesn’t mean she hadn’t moved on or wasn’t able to move on. It is possible to keep a special place in your heart while moving on with your life. It was established in Winter Soldier that Peggy did fall in love with another man and got married and even when Steve came back when she was old and in the nursing home, even though it was emotional for both of them, Peggy had zero regrets about how it all turned out and she just wanted Steve to find his own happiness. And Steve, for his part, was happy that she had a good life and treated her as an old friend with zero drama attached.

But obviously Endgame kind of forgot about all  that.

[swanpride]

Honestly, the thing with Peggy bothers me more because it basically reduces Peggy to something which is only important in context to Steve's desires, not because I don't think that she would be extremely happy if Steve came back in the 1940s (I always assumed that he travelled back to that time). And there is also the little fact that Steve is creating a new timeline by travelling back, and we have no idea whatsoever how this will impact the fabric of time.

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Just because she kept a picture of Steve in her office doesn’t mean she hadn’t moved on or wasn’t able to move on. It is possible to keep a special place in your heart while moving on with your life. It was established in Winter Soldier that Peggy did fall in love with another man and got married and even when Steve came back when she was old and in the nursing home, even though it was emotional for both of them, Peggy had zero regrets about how it all turned out and she just wanted Steve to find his own happiness. And Steve, for his part, was happy that she had a good life and treated her as an old friend with zero drama attached.

But obviously Endgame kind of forgot about all  that.

But the whole point of a multiverse is that there isn't one, true version of events that mustn't be interfered with.

Yes, Peggy got married and had no regrets in this timeline. But in another timeline she married someone else, or stayed single, or a thousand other things. And in one she married Steve because he came back in time.

Endgame didn't forget what was established in The Winter Soldier, it just established that what has happened is only set in stone for the reality the movies were set in.

Marvel are creating an animated series based on that exact idea - What If? 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Danny Franks