Fosse/Verdon - General Discussion

[TimWil]

I was relieved that the incident of Bobby’s virginity being taken was shot from his PoV so we never actually saw the 13 year old. And it was good they made it clear that the strippers were not exactly fantasy objects (there was at least one shot of them with a paunchy belly). I haven’t been a fan of Rockwell’s work in this but I thought he played that section beautifully-it was made clear that it was actually a painful, traumatic memory for Bob, not something to take pride in. And I liked that it was made clear that Ron was quietly horrified by what he’d just heard.

Edited May 8, 2019 by TimWil

[TexasGal]

Gwen’s speech about Joan dying so young and what about her kids -  made me think about Michelle and Heath Ledger and I legit had to stop the episode I was crying so hard. 

Second (or third) the votes for more about Paddy.  The actor is stealing his scenes. 

[elle]

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

, if cold in how she manipulated things to try and get Bobby on broad, even getting him out of the hospital before he was ready.  

Didn't Ann say that he checked himself out after 6 days?

[Quiet1ne]

8 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Gotta love how perfect it was that Gwen told Ann that it's worth being with Bobby because it will lead to great roles like Roxie.

  Hide contents

Ann would find that out herself, about 25 years later.

Spoiler

She actually replaced Gwen in the original 1976 production then played Roxie again to open the 1996 revival.  Ironically, neither Fosse, Verdon or any of the original production won the Tony (A Chorus Line swept), but Ann won for choreographing the revival.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ann: I don't think I've ever run that fast in my life!
Paddy: I don't run - at any speed.
Neil: I don't even walk at a clip.

Bob: Paddy disapproves of the whole thing.
Neil: What do you have against Lenny Bruce?
Paddy: He was filthy. He was lewd.
Bob: Since when are you Emily Post?
Paddy: It's not good for the Jews.
Neil: Oh, Jesus. You're crazy.
Paddy: You'll call me crazy when the pogrom comes down Fifth Avenue.

Neil: Do you know where you're shooting yet?
Bob: Yeah, half in Miami, half in New York.
Neil: Do they have stages in Miami?

Bob: You must be the famous Ron. I've been hearing all about you.
Gwen: You've met before, Bob.
Bob: Have we?
Ron: You came to the apartment that time, remember?
Bob: Umm...
Gwen: You crawled into bed with us.
Bob: That's right! It's all coming back to me.

Bob: Nicole gets along with [Ann] great.
Gwen: Well, of course she does. They're the same age.
Bob: How's Ron enjoying junior high?

Ann: The town was established in 1659. Nicole looked it up in her World Book.
Paddy: Wow, that's six years younger than I am.
Ann: ...
Paddy: That was a joke. I'm not actually 300 years old.

Ann: I guess you've seen a lot of Bob's girls over they years.
Paddy: Yeah, I've seen a lot of girls. I haven't seen a lot of yous, but he likes you.
Ann: He likes them all.

Ron: I saw Lenny Bruce once.
Bob: What did you think?
Ron: Honestly, he wasn't funny. To me. I don't know.
Bob: I don't think he's funny either. I'm not interested in that part of it.
Paddy: The man was a comedian, Bob. What ARE you interested in?
Bob: The clubs, the world, the flop sweat, the women, the sad sacks in the audience.
Gwen: You made that movie already. It was called Cabaret.

Gwen: You see, this is the problem with Bob. He's so sweet and he's so charming and he tells you everything you want to hear, but then you realize that he's just a liar. He'll say whatever it takes to get what he wants. You'll find out for yourself soon enough. You see, Bob has a very different idea of what a relationship is than most people. Honestly, it's pretty straightforward. Bob gets to fuck whoever he wants, whenever he wants, however he wants, and he doesn't want to hear your complaints or your concerns or your whining because he's doing it for his art, because he's weak, because he just can't help himself, because he wants to be free - that's the best one of all. And in exchange, what do you get in exchange? Oh, I know. Nothing.

Gwen: How much longer are you going to be able to keep this act up? Happy Bob, healthy Bob, faithful Bob - through the first day of shooting your movie?

Gwen: How did you sleep?
Neil: Like a baby.
Paddy: Babies don't snore like that.

Edited May 9, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I really felt for Gwen in the opening scene. It is hard to be the strong one in the family who is trying to be the cheerleader for everyone under regular circumstances, but even more so when you're taking your young child to visit daddy in rehab. After everything she went through with Bob, I kind of understood why she pushed so hard to get Chicago. She'd put in her time playing second fiddle to Bob's life, Bob's career, Bob's needs, and it was time for her to get something that she wanted before it was too late (in 1973, she was already 48 which is considered dead and buried in the dance world).

And poor Nicole. I know that lots of people don't have ideal childhoods, but still. In Normal Kid Problems, it always sucks when you're the only kid at a grownup party. She must have been bored out of her mind listening to them drink and argue.

After only a few minutes, I felt for Ann too. She was just beginning to get a taste of what life with Bob Fosse was like when she overheard him say that he would be shooting the Lenny Bruce movie in Miami and he hadn't bothered to mention it to her. She was also put in the awkward position of wanting Gwen to like her and not wanting to upset the apple cart. I appreciated that she wasn't trying to take Gwen's place with Nicole and that she made sure Gwen didn't want to do Nicole's hair before saying she would do it.

Seeing the dynamics in Ann's relationship with Bob is exactly why relationships with a huge age gap make me uncomfortable in general. She was like a little kid playing house in an adult world. She was at Bob's vacation cabin with Bob's friends and Bob's wife and Bob's kid. She knew that the only person in that entire house who was even remotely on her side was Nicole. The way she tentatively approached Paddy about Bob made me sad for her, but it really underscored the fact that she was a kid living in Bob's world.

It was nice to see Gwen and Bob getting along at the beginning of the visit. Their long history and their fondness for each other really came through in their teasing conversations. I also liked the scene later that night when it was just the two of them and Gwen told him that she knew it was all an act. They pushed each other's buttons, but they also knew each other and understood each other in a way that no one else seemed to.

I'm sure there are people who will be horrified by Nicole pouring drinks, stealing sips of beer, smoking purloined cigarettes, etc. but I remember Joan Crawford's daughter saying in her book that she was trained how to mix drinks and serve her mother's adult party guests when she was even younger than Nicole is.

And OF COURSE Bob thinks that he knows better than the doctors, going off his lithium cold turkey and begging Gwen to call the hospital to lie so that he could get out early. 

No matter how negatively this episode depicted Gwen, she still came out miles ahead of Bob as a parent, as a spouse, and as a person. She definitely manipulated him into doing Chicago, but he manipulated her for years so one weekend of her manipulating him is a drop in the bucket.

Edited May 9, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Maire]

The whole cast is great but Michelle Williams can really do it all. Her singing and remembering Joan Simon brought me to tears.

[mightysparrow]

1 hour ago, Maire said:

The whole cast is great but Michelle Williams can really do it all. Her singing and remembering Joan Simon brought me to tears.

I'm not much of a Michelle Williams fan but I don't have the words to describe how impressed I am with her performance here.  Gwen singing 'Where Am I Going' had so many layers, it was incredible.  Gwen's tired and sad and angry and worn out and grieving.  She doesn't REALLY want to perform but on the other hand she REALLY does.  It's her way of honouring her friend who she loves and misses.  It's a gift to Neil and Paddy.  It gives Ron something to do.  It's also a way of reminding Anne who the REAL Broadway star is.  And she's performing for Bob.  It's the one thing that they had that nobody else could ever touch.  She's also at a point in her life where she's living the lyrics of the song, so she's feeling lost and alone. 

Michelle Williams put ALL of that in her performance. 

[Cheyanne11]

51 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

I'm not much of a Michelle Williams fan but I don't have the words to describe how impressed I am with her performance here. 

I'm usually meh on her, but she is knocking it out of the park with this performance.  I usually see her as playing whatever character she's playing as fragile, but that is not the case here.  

[cpcathy]

I am enjoying this show, I don't wait with bated breath to see what happens next a la Fargo, but it's a nice hour-ish.

I think Michelle is doing a great job, and normally I love Sam, but I only see Sam here, not Fosse. The balding head and beard aren't enough for me.

[atlantaloves]

Cpcathy: I agree with you, Sam is miscast, the man can not dance, or even move, poor thing. Michelle is fantastic and has nailed Gwen, I was so surprised, and I am loving this series. It's hard to watch though, these people are really driven and pretty messed up.  The guys who are playing Patty and Neil and totally knocking it out of the park.   

[elle]

8 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

And OF COURSE Bob thinks that he knows better than the doctors, going off his lithium cold turkey and begging Gwen to call the hospital to lie so that he could get out early. 

Thank you for mentioning this.  It reminded me of the scene where Gwen talks about telling the doctors that this was all part of Bob's process, preparing to direct something about the subject and so on.  Ann did tell Paddy that the doctors wanted the Bob to stay months in the hospital but he checked out after days there, appealing to Paddy to help her convince Bob to slow down.  She couldn't ask Gwen because Gwen was complicit in getting Bob out early as well as having her own agenda for him.  (I think I'm caught up now)

[mightysparrow]

2 hours ago, atlantaloves said:

Cpcathy: I agree with you, Sam is miscast, the man can not dance, or even move, poor thing. Michelle is fantastic and has nailed Gwen, I was so surprised, and I am loving this series. It's hard to watch though, these people are really driven and pretty messed up.  The guys who are playing Patty and Neil and totally knocking it out of the park.   

I respectfully disagree with both of you. I'm a big Rockwell fan so I'm biased but I think Rockwell is doing a wonderful job.  Rockwell actually does have some dance experience, probably more than Williams does.  I feel Rockwell's performance on a physical level, which makes sense to me because Fosse expressed himself physically.  Other than the hair, he hasn't done as much to look like Fosse as Williams has to look like Verdon, but there are times when it feels like I'm watching Bob Fosse. 

[cmahorror]

I'm really enjoying this series. Everyone knows Fosse but Gwen Verdon has been overlooked for a long time and I am glad she is finally getting her recognition.

Both actors are doing a great job and I am impressed with the story behind the story. I haven't seen All That Jazz yet but I will be watching it as soon as I can.

Dating myself but the first time I saw Ann Reinking was in the movie version of Annie when she played Grace, Daddy Warbucks secretary and love interest. It wasn't until years later that I realized she had this huge dance background I had never seen.

[cpcathy]

I really enjoy most of All That Jazz. I love the dance scenes. Roy Scheider is really great in the role. I usually turn it off when the weird heart attack stuff comes near the end.

[atlantaloves]

Oh yeah, I like All that Jazz a lot more now than when it came out, it is a fantastic movie...but I agree, all the open heart operation scenes are sickening and self indulgent. Roy was wonderful and so was Annie! 

[JeanneH]

17 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

[Ann] was also put in the awkward position of wanting Gwen to like her and not wanting to upset the apple cart. I appreciated that she wasn't trying to take Gwen's place with Nicole and that she made sure Gwen didn't want to do Nicole's hair before saying she would do it.

Upthread not too far (previous page, I think) is a link to an article about Ann and Gwen's relationship. I'm not going to go spoilers, but it does say that Gwen thought one of the few things that was (mainly) true in All That Jazz was the depiction of the relationship between Kate/Ann and Michelle/Nicole. I guess they got to be like sisters, and Gwen even made a comment about playing mother to both of them at times.

Edited May 10, 2019 by JeanneH

[kitmerlot1213]

I have been enjoying the crap out of this--my favorite part are all of the dance sequences we get to see--and I think both Williams and Worthington are doing wonderful work as Verdon and Fosse.  I appreciate the fact that Gwen wants to protect Bob from his worst instincts but she also wants to ensure her and her daughter's futures, so she is being a bit cut-throat.

This past episode was kind of painful--the moments where Neil Simon talked about Joan and we could see he was still grieving and Gwen sang that great song in her honor and then finding out that Bob was also sexually abused as a young teenager--it was rather excruciating and it seemed to take awhile to really get to the heart of the matter but Gwen's tell off of Bob's neediness and self-absorption was worth the price of admission and I especially liked that Ann got to hear what was in store for her if she stayed with Bob,  The only complaint I had was the actress playing Ann--yes she has Ann's long dark hair and tall lanky form but what was with the weird accent?  I've listened to Ann speak in interviews and act in films and she doesn't speak with a speech impediment, it was kind of jarring 

[Suzn]

20 hours ago, atlantaloves said:

Cpcathy: I agree with you, Sam is miscast, the man can not dance, or even move, poor thing. Michelle is fantastic and has nailed Gwen, I was so surprised, and I am loving this series. It's hard to watch though, these people are really driven and pretty messed up.  The guys who are playing Patty and Neil and totally knocking it out of the park.   

I think Sam Rockwell is better than that, but Michelle Williams is miles ahead in embodying Gwen.  I'd never been impressed with her before so I don't know how she has managed to capture the magic.

[Neurochick]

On 5/8/2019 at 6:57 PM, TimWil said:

I was relieved that the incident of Bobby’s virginity being taken was shot from his PoV so we never actually saw the 13 year old. And it was good they made it clear that the strippers were not exactly fantasy objects (there was at least one shot of them with a paunchy belly). I haven’t been a fan of Rockwell’s work in this but I thought he played that section beautifully-it was made clear that it was actually a painful, traumatic memory for Bob, not something to take pride in. And I liked that it was made clear that Ron was quietly horrified by what he’d just heard.

That was a good scene.  Today, many people would see that as sexual abuse of a minor.  At that time, and since it happened to a boy, the other men didn't see it that way.  However, I did notice, from Ron's face that he thought it was awful, especially since he told of the way he lost his virginity, to a girlfriend in college.  The other guys thought that was "boring."

[Rinaldo]

On 5/9/2019 at 4:25 PM, mightysparrow said:

Rockwell actually does have some dance experience, probably more than Williams does.

Can you (or someone) help with more details about this? I don't know that much about Rockwell beyond reading his Wikipedia bio (which doesn't mention dance experience but I never assume that such articles are all-inclusive). looking over his IMDb credits, and seeing him in a handful of films. I do know that Michelle Williams starred in Cabaret on Broadway, and I don't know of anything corresponding for him. But I'm always glad to become better informed.

[mightysparrow]

4 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

Can you (or someone) help with more details about this? I don't know that much about Rockwell beyond reading his Wikipedia bio (which doesn't mention dance experience but I never assume that such articles are all-inclusive). looking over his IMDb credits, and seeing him in a handful of films. I do know that Michelle Williams starred in Cabaret on Broadway, and I don't know of anything corresponding for him. But I'm always glad to become better informed.

I read an interview (can't remember where) with Rockwell and he mentioned that he used to be a breakdancer.  I've also seen him dance in a couple of roles.  Check out Iron Man 2!

As for Michelle Williams, did she play Sally in Cabaret?  I didn't think that was much of a dancing role.

[JeanneH]

3 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

As for Michelle Williams, did she play Sally in Cabaret?  I didn't think that was much of a dancing role.

I don't know if Williams has, but the original Broadway Sally (1966) was Jill Haworth, who had trained in ballet when she was a child, and the original London Sally (1968) was Judi Dench(!), definitely not a dancer! [1]  I'd always thought of Sally as more of a singer's part, though Judi's version is vastly different from Liza's. Maybe because the film version of Cabaret is quite different from the stage version?

[1] - even though she was supposed to be in the original (1981 London) cast of Cats, which is very dance heavy as we all know. Judi was to play both Jennyanydots and Grizabella, who sings "Memory".  She snapped her achilles just before previews and was replaced by Elaine Paige. And yet in the coming 2019 Cats movie Judi will play a gender swapped Old Deuteronomy. She and Trevor Nunn are old friends.

Edited May 11, 2019 by JeanneH

[kathe5133]

First of all:  my first reaction when I heard Fosse/Verdon would star Rockwell/Williams was “they are not dancers”.  I was told to “wait and see”.  I am constantly annoyed by the casting of “names” in any vehicle.  Rosie O’Donnell starring as Rizzo in Grease on Broadway comes to mind.  She can’t sing, she can’t dance, and at that time, couldn’t act! (She has since really stepped up the acting game, as in SMILF, a piece of shit sitcom, where she shone, but I digress).  Despite her lack in these areas, folks flocked to see her in Grease, while actors with legitimate talent collected unemployment checks!  But, I decided to “wait and see”.  Rockwell is good, I guess.  He’s not a dancer, but with clever editing, and I’m sure a good deal of hard work on his part, I guess he’s pulling it off as well as any other actor who doesn’t really sing and dance can.  Williams is not a dancer or a singer.  She just isn’t.  (I’ve seen clips of her “Sally Bowles” on YouTube and it was high school level at best)  But, her acting in Fosse/Verdon is superb!  She completely disappears into the role and I am thoroughly enjoying her performance!

Second of all, although the real Bob Fosse was a talented dancer and choreographer, he was a true piece of shit as a human being!  He used his position to bed most of his dancers.  I saw an interview where he attributed his “success” with these women as “well, I’m not a bad looking guy......”.  Yeah, Bobby you are a “bad looking guy”.  Ugly, little troll of a man who only got laid because they knew they’d get or keep the job.  Can you imagine the fungi and crud that lived on his willy?  Yuck!  No wonder Weinstein thought he could get away with the shit he pulled.  Ugly trolls like Bob Fosse showed him the way!  

[12catcrazy]

Speaking of casting "names" who cant sing or dance in musicals and clever editing - remember the film version of "Chicago" starring the very non-dancer Renee Zwellneger in the lead role?  Kind of ironic that a musical which was written for a dancer starred a woman who didnt dance.  And lets not forget the movies that had dubbed singing because the movie star leads couldnt sing...

[rlc]

On 4/30/2019 at 7:54 AM, alexvillage said:

I loved that show! In a bit of personal trivia, I saw Debbie's Sweet Charity on Broadway in 1986. 

All That Jazz is one of my all time favorite dance movies. I actually had classes a few years later with one of the credited dancers.The movie was very true to Fosse, since he co-wrote it. And I guess this miniseries does well in following, somehow, the movie. I also like that Nicole is involved in the series, and that Lin-Manuel Miranda is one of producers (the last one is just because I want to see him involved in everything I like).

I binged the first three episodes - I never even use my cable box, had to turn it on to watch the episodes on demand, haha. 

Thanks for sharing that clip. I could watch Gwen dance all day. Her style is remarkable. She has such ease, fluidity, and musicality. A total joy to watch.

Edited May 12, 2019 by rlc

[kathe5133]

1 hour ago, 12catcrazy said:

Speaking of casting "names" who cant sing or dance in musicals and clever editing - remember the film version of "Chicago" starring the very non-dancer Renee Zwellneger in the lead role?  Kind of ironic that a musical which was written for a dancer starred a woman who didnt dance.  And lets not forget the movies that had dubbed singing because the movie star leads couldnt sing...

I know!  She couldn’t sing either!  They auto tuned the shit out of her.  Her acting was good, but there are thousands of women who could’ve sung and danced it.   And Richard (I did my own tap dancing) Gere!  Sure you did pal, that’s why the camera was on your face, then your feet, and then your face!  Never did see a full body shot of him dancing.  Tap dancing is more than walking around with metal bits on your shoes.  I takes years, years of practice to make those sounds!  It’s such an insult to those who studied their craft for years!z

[pasdetrois]

My favorite ATJ number, featuring an actress playing Nicole and the real Ann:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRVv2b-hL_0

[Suzn]

3 hours ago, kathe5133 said:

I know!  She couldn’t sing either!  They auto tuned the shit out of her.  Her acting was good, but there are thousands of women who could’ve sung and danced it.   And Richard (I did my own tap dancing) Gere!  Sure you did pal, that’s why the camera was on your face, then your feet, and then your face!  Never did see a full body shot of him dancing.  Tap dancing is more than walking around with metal bits on your shoes.  I takes years, years of practice to make those sounds!  It’s such an insult to those who studied their craft for years!z

I am currently watching all things Fosse related and just watched the movie Chicago.  I have to admit that I was skeptical of the singing and dancing by Renee Zellweger and Richard Gere, but it appeared to me that they in fact did sing and dance.  This may be OT, but how was this faked well enough to fool me a little?

[rur]

If I remember correctly, when the movie came out a couple of articles made it clear that Gere did some of  his own dancing, if there was a small bit to be done in a scene,  but the tap-dancing number (in which the his character is mostly in the shadows) was done by someone else. 

Edited May 11, 2019 by rur

[atlantaloves]

Kath:  Oh get ready for this, Rene Z is playing Judy Garland and doing her own singing in this stupid movie. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Honey you are beyond vain,  She makes me puke distressed rainbows. Yeah, I agree with you about Chicago, that movie was all editing, no dancing. 

[JeanneH]

3 hours ago, atlantaloves said:

Kath:  Oh get ready for this, Rene Z is playing Judy Garland and doing her own singing in this stupid movie. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Honey you are beyond vain,  She makes me puke distressed rainbows. Yeah, I agree with you about Chicago, that movie was all editing, no dancing. 

I believe Catherine Zeta-Jones was doing her own dancing. Didn't she start out as some sort of dancer?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, JeanneH said:

I believe Catherine Zeta-Jones was doing her own dancing. Didn't she start out as some sort of dancer?

Yes, according to her Wikipedia page, she danced a lot before her big Hollywood break. 

Because Zeta-Jones was a hyperactive child, her mother sent her to the Hazel Johnson School of Dance when she was four years old.

The family came from a modest background, but their fortunes improved when they won £100,000 in a bingo competition, allowing them to pay for Zeta-Jones' dance and ballet lessons.

Zeta-Jones participated in school stage shows from a young age and gained local media attention when her rendition of a Shirley Bassey song won a Junior Star Trail talent competition. As part of a dance troupe, she routinely took trips to London, where she auditioned for roles in the theatre. At the age of nine, she was selected to play one of the orphan girls in a West End production of the musical Annie, and in her early teens, she became a national tap-dancing champion. In 1981 she played the lead role of Annie in a Swansea production of the musical, which was staged at the Swansea Grand Theatre. Two years later, she played the lead role of Tallulah in a West End production of Bugsy Malone. When she was 15, Zeta-Jones dropped out of school without obtaining O-levels and decided to live in London to pursue a full-time acting career; she was also engaged to perform in a touring production of The Pajama Game. Describing her teenage years in London, Zeta-Jones said, "I would queue up for auditions and then change my costume or put on a different leotard and audition again. It might take me two tries, but I always got the job. I figured out what they wanted". She went on to attend the independent Arts Educational Schools in Chiswick, London, for a three-year course in musical theatre.

In 1987, when she was 17 years old, Zeta-Jones was picked as the second understudy to the lead actress in a West End production of 42nd Street. During one of the performances, both the star and the first understudy were unavailable, and Zeta-Jones was asked to play the role of Peggy Sawyer—a chorus girl who becomes a star. The producer was impressed by her acting ability and allowed her to play the role for the next two years.

[kathe5133]

9 hours ago, atlantaloves said:

Kath:  Oh get ready for this, Rene Z is playing Judy Garland and doing her own singing in this stupid movie. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Honey you are beyond vain,  She makes me puke distressed rainbows. Yeah, I agree with you about Chicago, that movie was all editing, no dancing. 

I had heard that.  Her own singing?  I think not.  She’ll be auto tuned, and the person who is actually singing for her will be auto tuned as well.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

18 hours ago, kathe5133 said:

And Richard (I did my own tap dancing) Gere!  Sure you did pal, that’s why the camera was on your face, then your feet, and then your face!  Never did see a full body shot of him dancing.  Tap dancing is more than walking around with metal bits on your shoes.  I takes years, years of practice to make those sounds!  It’s such an insult to those who studied their craft for years!z

14 hours ago, Suzn said:

I am currently watching all things Fosse related and just watched the movie Chicago.  I have to admit that I was skeptical of the singing and dancing by Renee Zellweger and Richard Gere, but it appeared to me that they in fact did sing and dance.  This may be OT, but how was this faked well enough to fool me a little?

13 hours ago, rur said:

If I remember correctly, when the movie came out a couple of articles made it clear that Gere did some of  his own dancing, if there was a small bit to be done in a scene,  but the tap-dancing number (in which the his character is mostly in the shadows) was done by someone else. 

This interview with Richard Gere says that he did musical theater as a kid (and according to Wikipedia he attended college on a gymnastics scholarship) so at the very least, he is coordinated (his first major role was playing Danny in the London production of Grease in 1973 and he also danced in Shall We Dance? with Jennifer Lopez).

Quote

"In terms of singing, we all kind of dove in and just did it. And in terms of the dancing, although Catherine was the only one who was really trained as a dancer, we had choreography that worked for us, you know, didn't invent us as dancers, but made us work with what we had."

He did find one aspect of the choreography particularly challenging, though.

"It was the tap dancing. That I didn't know," says Gere. "I mean I was learning from scratch to do something that is - for anyone - is very difficult. And something I had to get together in a few months. So that was daunting. It was deeply humbling."

Gere admits he was reluctant to demonstrate his dancing skills for the cast and crew.

"I was very shy about it when I was learning it. And I'd be in a separate room and lock the doors. And no one was allowed to come in there, just me and my teacher. I got very frustrated with myself," admits Gere. "So there was a lot of screaming and yelling. And I didn't know anyone could hear this, but apparently it was a joke on the set that 'Oh, Richard's in there working on tap dancing.'"

When it came time for Gere to shoot his big dance scene, he refused to let his nerves get the best of him.

"I was starting to feel more confident, but I hadn't done it for anybody," says Gere. "And we were under a lot of time pressure. We were over on our days. The day we were supposed to shoot was going by. And in the end we shot it in about two hours. Very quick. And I came out and did the routine. I dove in and never looked around. And all the crew and everyone were like, 'Whoa, where did that come from?'"

Someone on Google Answers posted this:

Quote

I'm a TV producer and recently interviewed Rob Marshall, the director of "Chicago." I asked him about Gere's tapping and about how many journalists and critics are skeptical he did his own dancing because you never see his face. Marshall said he was "outraged" that people felt that way. That indeed Gere did all his own dancing, as did Zellweger and Zeta-Jones. (although personally, I'm suspicious that R & C they did their own cartwheels). And because people are so distrustful, Marshall put on the end credits of the movie, "Richard Gere's singing and tap dancing are performed by Richard Gere." You'll see the same thing for Renee & Catherine. As a former tapper, and I do believe Gere did his own dancing -- but he was learning short sequences of steps. He had never tapped before and in only 4-6 months it's doubtful he could sustain a long, elegant dance. But by having him do little snippets and editing it in fragments, voila! He's a dancer!

The dilemma with projects like Fosse/Verdon is what's more important? Do you want someone who can really act but can't dance? In that case, do you use a body double? Or would you prefer someone who can dance but isn't a great actor? Or do you split the difference and cast someone who's passable at both but not great at either? For projects like this, they want at least one or two big name that are recognizable to the average Joe, which is why we end up with Broadway stars who are great at singing/dancing/acting being cast in the smaller roles. I find that disappointing because if you cast someone who's less well known to the general public, a great performance in a tv project can make them stars, which is what Glee did for Lea Michele.

[Quilt Fairy]

Well, I'm an average Joe (or Jane, actually) and I like the movie Chicago. Pick it apart all you want, it's very well done, and it had 3 stars who held their own in the roles and introduced Fosse style dancing to millions of people who hadn't seen it before.  I think it's Best Movie Oscar was well deserved.  But a movie is more than a filmed stage play, it's an entirely different animal.  It's cast differently, created differently, and promoted differently.  And it's obviously hard to get it right.  That's why most plays - and especially most musicals - never make the transition from stage to screen in this era.

I will take a Chicago any day over the 1950-60s when Marni Nixon's voice was dubbed over every actress from Debra Carr to Audrey Hepburn, or the following decade where Barbra Streisand single-handedly ruined movie musicals by being miscast in everything from Hello, Dolly to On A Clear Day You Can See Forever.   Or, God help us, Lucille Ball as Mame.   (I once saw a test tape from My Fair Lady that had the whole Covent Garden scene for "Wouldn't It Be Loverly?" with Audrey Hepburn singing on her own.  She would have been perfectly acceptable, and much  better more authentic than what we got.)

Edited May 12, 2019 by Quilt Fairy

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1.5 clips

Beautiful view:

Too far:

[ElectricBoogaloo]

S1.E6: All I Care About Is Love

Quote

As Bob is pulled between multiple projects, he and Gwen begin rehearsals for Chicago, but the mounting pressure may prove too much to bear.

Promo:

Original air date: 5/14/19

[ProudMary]

3 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I will take a Chicago any day over the 1950-60s when Marni Nixon's voice was dubbed over every actress from Debra Carr to Audrey Hepburn, or the following decade where Barbra Streisand single-handedly ruined movie musicals by being miscast in everything from Hello, Dolly to On A Clear Day You Can See Forever.   Or, God help us, Lucille Ball as Mame.   (I once saw a test tape from My Fair Lady that had the whole Covent Garden scene for "Wouldn't It Be Loverly?" with Audrey Hepburn singing on her own.  She would have been perfectly acceptable, and much  better more authentic than what we got.)

Or, they could have just allowed Julie Andrews, who could sing and act, to reprise her Broadway triumph. She was more than ready to make the jump from stage star to screen star, as was seen that very year when she acted, sang and danced her way to an Oscar for Mary Poppins. 

[mightysparrow]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

This interview with Richard Gere says that he did musical theater as a kid (and according to Wikipedia he attended college on a gymnastics scholarship) so at the very least, he is coordinated (his first major role was playing Danny in the London production of Grease in 1973 and he also danced in Shall We Dance? with Jennifer Lopez).

Someone on Google Answers posted this:

The dilemma with projects like Fosse/Verdon is what's more important? Do you want someone who can really act but can't dance? In that case, do you use a body double? Or would you prefer someone who can dance but isn't a great actor? Or do you split the difference and cast someone who's passable at both but not great at either? For projects like this, they want at least one or two big name that are recognizable to the average Joe, which is why we end up with Broadway stars who are great at singing/dancing/acting being cast in the smaller roles. I find that disappointing because if you cast someone who's less well known to the general public, a great performance in a tv project can make them stars, which is what Glee did for Lea Michele.

Fosse/Verdon is a drama not a musical, so I think hiring actors with serious acting chops is MUCH more important than hiring dancers who can act.  Neither character has done much dancing so far.  In fact, Fosse has stopped dancing at this point in his career.

Lately it seems that every singer who gets a song in the Billboard 100 thinks they're ready to act.  I guess it's because most people think acting is easy.  And when Americans want a 'serious' actor, they think they need to hire someone British, which is total bullshit because there are just as many crap British actors out there as there are American. 

All one has to do is look at movies and television nowadays to see that acting ISN'T easy and to be good at it is HARD.  Hiring dancers who can act probably wouldn't make Fosse/Verdon as good as it is.  In my opinion, Ann Reinking is Exhibit A.  She's okay in All That Jazz and I'm sure it helped that she's playing herself and being directed by her boyfriend.  She has been less than okay in other projects I've seen her in.

[AzraeltheCat]

On 5/10/2019 at 9:38 AM, kitmerlot1213 said:

The only complaint I had was the actress playing Ann--yes she has Ann's long dark hair and tall lanky form but what was with the weird accent?  I've listened to Ann speak in interviews and act in films and she doesn't speak with a speech impediment, it was kind of jarring 

Yes, I'm not impressed with the casting of Ann.  Her voice is slightly raspy but that's about all they have in common.  Maybe it wouldn't bother me but the rest of the casting/acting - Bob, Gwen, Neil, Paddy is so good, that stands out... and not in a good way. 

[Inquisitionist]

On 5/9/2019 at 6:03 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I'm sure there are people who will be horrified by Nicole pouring drinks, stealing sips of beer, smoking purloined cigarettes, etc. but I remember Joan Crawford's daughter saying in her book that she was trained how to mix drinks and serve her mother's adult party guests when she was even younger than Nicole is.

I just watched part of Yours, Mine, and Ours yesterday, and Henry Fonda's character (a Catholic Naval officer) has his teen-aged sons mixing drinks for guests.  Yeesh.

[Inquisitionist]

On 5/11/2019 at 10:43 PM, JeanneH said:

I believe Catherine Zeta-Jones was doing her own dancing. Didn't she start out as some sort of dancer?

And yet CZ-J was the weak link for me in Chicago because she's not the same caliber actor as Zellweger and Gere.  For me, the acting is more important on screen, due to the intimate scale.  YMMV.

[chitowngirl]

1 hour ago, Inquisitionist said:

I just watched part of Yours, Mine, and Ours yesterday, and Henry Fonda's character (a Catholic Naval officer) has his teen-aged sons mixing drinks for guests.  Yeesh.

In the movie Auntie Mame, Young Patrick knows how to mix the perfect martini!

[alexvillage]

The underage drinking is a problem but it is not so dramatic. It is cultural. Obviously, Nicole was easy too young to be drinking and smoking but in other cultures, in Europe and some South American countries - mentioning this because I have seen it - children can taste wine and beer at home, and it is not a big deal. I don't think there is qualified and accurate, if any, research about the effects of alcoholism being higher in such countries if you consider only this factor. The problem, imo, is not parenting as much as the environment the kid finds itself in.

[Suzn]

2 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

And yet CZ-J was the weak link for me in Chicago because she's not the same caliber actor as Zellweger and Gere.  For me, the acting is more important on screen, due to the intimate scale.  YMMV.

I really didn't see anything superior in the acting of RZ & RG over CZ-J.  Quite honestly, I thought everyone's acting was pretty much over the top, which I guess fitted the kind of heightened reality of it.  What's more the only thing I really enjoyed was the dancing, particularly the cell-block tango.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, alexvillage said:

The underage drinking is a problem but it is not so dramatic. It is cultural. Obviously, Nicole was easy too young to be drinking and smoking but in other cultures, in Europe and some South American countries - mentioning this because I have seen it - children can taste wine and beer at home, and it is not a big deal. I don't think there is qualified and accurate, if any, research about the effects of alcoholism being higher in such countries if you consider only this factor. The problem, imo, is not parenting as much as the environment the kid finds itself in.

Yes, Sally Draper also makes drinks for her parents in like the first season when she's very young.

I think especially with teenagers it's totally appropriate in a cocktail culture. It's something adults are generally know so you learn it when you're a kid.

Nicole was in a houseful of adults drinking with dinner etc. so if she wanted to sneak something she was going to do it. 

[VioletMarx]

4 hours ago, Suzn said:

I really didn't see anything superior in the acting of RZ & RG over CZ-J.  Quite honestly, I thought everyone's acting was pretty much over the top, which I guess fitted the kind of heightened reality of it.  What's more the only thing I really enjoyed was the dancing, particularly the cell-block tango.

Speaking of the cell block tango, I thought the actress who played Fosse's second wife Joan looked familiar. After some googling I found she was in the Chicago movie version of cell block tango. She's "pop," the one who fires two warning signs. right. in. to. his. head.

I used to marvel at her dancing in that sequence and wonder what each of the movie Merry Murderesses were up to. They were each phenomenal. Great to see her in this.

Here is a link if you'd like to see it:

Also, as a child of the 70s I have vivid memories of mixing drinks for my parents and their friends. It wasn't unusual at the time, at least among the folks I knew.

Edited May 13, 2019 by VioletMarx

[Jordan Baker]

On 5/12/2019 at 1:31 PM, mightysparrow said:

Fosse/Verdon is a drama not a musical, so I think hiring actors with serious acting chops is MUCH more important than hiring dancers who can act.  Neither character has done much dancing so far.  In fact, Fosse has stopped dancing at this point in his career.

I just watched All That Jazz. I hadn't seen it since its release in the late '70s. I noticed that Roy Scheider did almost no dancing at all. And he was phenomenal. Blew me away.

The only things I remembered from that long-ago viewing experience were the scene in which he's going through the autopsy room in the hospital, the "Everything Old is New Again" number, and "It's Showtime!" 

Ann Reinking is amazing as a dancer, but I thought her acting was just OK. Jessica Lange was . . . I'm not sure how to describe her. Let's just say she's improved greatly from this early role.

The movie was too long and messy in parts. I still loved it. I think I appreciate it so much more now because of learning more about Fosse and Verdon from this show.

A year before All That Jazz was released, I made my first trip to NYC and saw Dancin'. Sadly, I no longer have the Playbill, but I assume I saw Ann Reinking, Sandahl Bergman, and some of the other dancers from All That Jazz. Wish I could remember it better. 

[rur]

9 hours ago, alexvillage said:

The underage drinking is a problem but it is not so dramatic. It is cultural. 

Agreed. I think you also have to keep in mind the temper of the times. I was a child in the '60s and it was common where I grew up for parents to let their children have a sip of their beer. Maybe the logic behind it was that if we knew what the grownups drinks tasted like, we wouldn't try to drink them on our own. We were also frequently sent to get more drinks for our parents. As @alexvillage said, it was the parenting (done all of the time) that had more to do with the outcome than anything else.