Fosse/Verdon - General Discussion

[sistermagpie]

28 minutes ago, Loandbehold said:

I would have liked to have seen more of Gwen's life, but I understand why they didn't show it once Bob died. This story was about their partnership. While we got snippets of Bob's life prior to meeting Gwen, we really didn't see much of what he was doing both in the theatre and on film, prior to Sweet Charity. So, once Bob dies, their story ends and we got the few words briefing us on what happened in the ensuing years.

For me, I thought it was right to end with the death but it seemed wrong when they put up those notes at the end that they didn't mention anything about the work Gwen did after Bob's death. Given the subject of the show it made it seem as if her career ended with his except for doing things involved with his work, even if it was just in passing. It was more relevant than Nicole falling in love etc.

28 minutes ago, Loandbehold said:

I wonder why they used a "composite" of people for Gwen's post-separation boyfriend. Were they unable to get the guy's approval to use his name? If he's still alive, I could see that he might think this was invading his privacy. And, if he's not alive, I can see his family not wanting him depicted. Still, I am curious.

My guess is it was just less confusing for the audience. They wouldn't have wanted to make it seem like Gwen and Bob were doing the same thing in terms of sleeping with tons of people, so they just combined Gwen's relationships into one guy who, as I understand it, was mostly based on a particular guy. It gave a good picture of what her life was like after they split without having to introduce different people and actors. It was more domestic. 

Interesting that they never brought up Jessica Lange. I see how there wasn't time, but I always remember being amused by somebody saying how in some ways she was the one women who beat him because she was seeing two other guys when she was with him. One was Sam Shepherd, a director Bob couldn't feel superior to and the other was, well, Mikhail Baryshnikov. So Bob felt pretty outclassed by him at all times.

22 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I felt like Nicole's character was under-served in this production. Part of the problem was casting and the change of actresses, but overall I never got a feel for what was going on with her and the writing seemed like an afterthought. I felt like I understood Gwen, and I understood Bob as much as anyone can. But I never really felt like I understood Nicole. The attention the show spent on her felt superficial and perfunctory. It might have been better if they hadn't even tried to cover her drug and alcohol problems and kept her in the background if they weren't really going to fully develop her story.

In a way, that seems right to me. It's not her story. We're really only seeing her through her parents' eyes and to them this is what she would have been like, a kid who wanted to dance, then started hanging out with a bad crowd, was fighting with them all the time, staying out late. She was just part of their world when she was and not whens he wasn't. 

I liked how they were both sort of keeping up with her professionally. That was the one throughline that you could see throughout--they understood her when she was being a performer. Unfortunately they therefore could see that she wasn't on their level as a performer. So they rooted for her, but couldn't bounce things off her the way they could with each other.

I don't know if it was the best thing to do, but I didn't really fault Bob for his reaction to Nicole's taking a dexy, saying "If you want to act like an adult I'll treat you like one." No idea if it was the exact wrong thing to do or not, but if she thought doing drugs was a way to win his attention her problems might have wound up even worse than they were. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

In a way, that seems right to me. It's not her story. We're really only seeing her through her parents' eyes and to them this is what she would have been like, a kid who wanted to dance, then started hanging out with a bad crowd, was fighting with them all the time, staying out late. She was just part of their world when she was and not whens he wasn't.

Yes but it felt gratuitous and short-handed. They should have either incorporated Nicole's story with the same attention paid to her parents or omit it. There were scenes with just Nicole, or just Nicole and her friends. So it wasn't entirely limited to her interactions with her parents. I'm proposing it should have been since they didn't really flesh out her character.

[Quilt Fairy]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't know if it was the best thing to do, but I didn't really fault Bob for his reaction to Nicole's taking a dexy, saying "If you want to act like an adult I'll treat you like one." No idea if it was the exact wrong thing to do or not, but if she thought doing drugs was a way to win his attention her problems might have wound up even worse than they were. 

I thought that was a great reaction, a very "parent" thing to do, even if he was the more permissive parent.  It's Actions-have-consequences 101.   I also loved the remark about using a coaster. 

[sistermagpie]

38 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Yes but it felt gratuitous and short-handed. They should have either incorporated Nicole's story with the same attention paid to her parents or omit it. There were scenes with just Nicole, or just Nicole and her friends. So it wasn't entirely limited to her interactions with her parents. I'm proposing it should have been since they didn't really flesh out her character.

Yes, I agree. It seemed like they were going for something showing her with her friends smoking and almost falling off the roof, but it was like something out of a different movie and didn't tell us anything we wouldn't have gotten from just her parents talking about her being out late etc. 

[alexvillage]

Maybe Nicole didn't want this part in the series but I would love to see something about her part in the A Chorus Line film. I wonder how conversations between her and her parents, in particular Bob, went since Bob didn't like Bennett and was allegedly very resentful about losing the Tony's to him.

[marieYOTZ]

On 5/29/2019 at 2:04 PM, Poohbear617 said:

Not for long though. SHE did marry and have children with an artist. Gwen lived with them and died in October 2000.  Less than 2 months later Nicole's husband was killed in December by drunk driver at the age of 31...she never has remarried.

I read an interview with Nicole Fosse yesterday (NYT) and it said it was the reverse. Her husband died in the crash, then Verdon moved in to help Nicole with her three young sons, and died 8 weeks later.

[memememe76]

I didn't know anything about at all about Nicole. How awful for Nicole and her kids. 

I wonder what happened to Gwen's son. Did Nicole and him ever establish a relationship?

[Rinaldo]

Playbill has made available three behind-the-scenes-videos of production elements of the series: choreography, design, and depicting their artistic partnership.

A further thought about Gwen Verdon from my own experience growing up in the 1950s-60s: Because she made only one movie as a musical star, and no other movies from then (1958) until Cocoon in 1985, it may not be realized how familiar she really was to national TV audiences. There were lots of variety shows in primetime then, often live and often broadcasting from New York (so they could share the newest musical-theater people and songs with the nation). There were a raft of such folks who were ultra-familiar to tv watchers, even if they didn't have a big movie career: Stubby Kaye, Julie Andrews (remember, movies didn't happen for her till 1964), Cyril Ritchard, Gretchen Wyler, and on.

Gwen was a guest star on "Dinah Shore" and "Johnny Carson" twice, on "Danny Kaye" 6 times... and that's far from a complete list. Most memorably to me (my family never missed it), she was on "Garry Moore" 11 times. Here's a number that I remember from the episode's original airing, their Christmas show for 1961. It takes off from then-president JFK's campaign for national physical fitness, uses Irving Berlin's song "Everybody's Doin' It," and features series regular Carol Burnett plus guest stars Gwen Verdon and Julie Andrews -- from our vantage point, that's a legendary trio of musical-theater royalty. Just another Tuesday evening on the tube.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Rinaldo

[MJS]

On 5/28/2019 at 11:58 PM, memememe76 said:

We all kinda knew how it would end, but why did it hit me so hard? I have grown so fond of this series. Michelle Williams has been masterful. It was not perfect, but it was worthwhile.

Just finished the finale and I’m sobbing like a baby. I want to watch it all over again. 

[JeanneH]

7 hours ago, alexvillage said:

Maybe Nicole didn't want this part in the series but I would love to see something about her part in the A Chorus Line film. I wonder how conversations between her and her parents, in particular Bob, went since Bob didn't like Bennett and was allegedly very resentful about losing the Tony's to him.

Lin-Manuel Miranda live tweeted the final episode with streaming video at commercial breaks. Nicole (and two sons) was watching the episode with him at his place, and was taking questions people had sent to him beforehand. One of them was what was Bob's reaction to her getting a part in that movie. She said he smirked and went "huh" (or some sound like that). The tweets and videos (there are 4 of them) are still up.

@Lin_Manuel

Edited May 31, 2019 by JeanneH

[elle]

1 hour ago, Rinaldo said:

Playbill has made available three behind-the-scenes-videos of production elements of the series: choreography, design, and depicting their artistic partnership.

A further thought about Gwen Verdon from my own experience growing up in the 1950s-60s: Because she made only one movie as a musical star, and no other movies from then (1958) until Cocoon in 1985, it may not be realized how familiar she really was to national TV audiences. There were lots of variety shows in primetime then, often live and often broadcasting from New York (so they could share the newest musical-theater people and songs with the nation). There were a raft of such folks who were ultra-familiar to tv watchers, even if they didn't have a big movie career: Stubby Kaye, Julie Andrews (remember, movies didn't happen for her till 1964), Cyril Ritchard, Gretchen Wyler, and on.

Gwen was a guest star on "Dinah Shore" and "Johnny Carson" twice, on "Danny Kaye" 6 times... and that's far from a complete list. Most memorably to me (my family never missed it), she was on "Garry Moore" 11 times. Here's a number that I remember from the episode's original airing, their Christmas show for 1961. It takes off from then-president JFK's campaign for national physical fitness, uses Irving Berlin's song "Everybody's Doin' It," and features series regular Carol Burnett plus guest stars Gwen Verdon and Julie Andrews -- from our vantage point, that's a legendary trio of musical-theater royalty. Just another Tuesday evening on the tube.

Quote

Thank you for sharing this!  One thing I have loved most about the show is this forum and all of the videos and stories that have been shared here.

Since Carol Burnett featured so many great entertainers in her show, I wondered if Gwen was ever on.  I found this video.  It really showcases Gwen's balletic style.  The set design looks straight out of a Dr. Seuss book.

Gwen on The Carol Burnett Show 1967. 

She was on again in 1969. The list on imdb for her appearance on tv is long.  She was on Captain Kangaroo!

I also found this article from the LA Times.  Carol Burnett is one of the people quoted about their memories of Bob/Gwen.  I would love to find that episode that Gwen was on.  The Question time at the beginning of TCBS was often the best part of the show and I bet that one was a hoot.

I didn't make the connection until I read Tom Selleck 's interview that Gwen had played his mom on Magnum. I believe it had been mentioned here. I wonder if the scene where Bob suggests Tom play him in ATJ was a real thing or if it was a sly nod to this future casting.

[Bunnyto4]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

Just finished the finale and I’m sobbing like a baby. I want to watch it all over again. 

Me too. I knew what was coming, and it still floored me-I'm a complete mess.  I'm also planning on rewatching. God, what amazing acting! And I loved Lin Manuel Miranda as Roy Scheider-I wasn't expecting that cameo, as I've made a point of not reading too much stuff about the series. Well done, all!

[Poohbear617]

18 hours ago, marieYOTZ said:

read an interview with Nicole Fosse yesterday (NYT) and it said it was the reverse. Her husband died in the crash, then Verdon moved in to help Nicole with her three young sons, and died 8 weeks later.

Thanks MarieYotz...I did not realize I had reversed them..

I have been sharing this show with my college age and high school nieces, and sharing the extra clips found here as well.

The thing that really shocked them is the influence into people they know and have heard of.  I got the 3 best reactions from them with:

1)showing paula Abdul cold hearted snake video is almost directly pulled from ATJ film.

2)  some wonderful person on YouTube does aside by side of Gwen and 2 dancers doing Mexican Breakfast right next to Beyonce Single Ladies 
https://youtu.be/mOAwBUfyfDg
 

3) Bob Fosse's performance of Snake in the Grass in The Little Prince film is michael jackson.

https://youtu.be/eUTEhEPONgc
 

To take nothing away from these dancers but it blew their minds that there favorites did not originate things.

[Miss February]

Michelle Williams and Sam Rockwell both deserve Oscars for these performances. I say this because Emmys just don't have a ring of importance to them, no matter how good television has gotten over the years. Not to sound too immature, but if the Academy made a stipulation that they will award an honorary Oscar to one actress and one actor this year due to superb performances which happened to air on television, and then announced the awards for these two, that would seem justified to me. (Sounds silly, but that's how impressed I was with these actors.)

I thought the last scene was a master class in acting. A scene like that would be very difficult, and each actor played it beautifully and, in my opinion, perfectly.

[Loandbehold]

12 hours ago, Miss February said:

Michelle Williams and Sam Rockwell both deserve Oscars for these performances. I say this because Emmys just don't have a ring of importance to them, no matter how good television has gotten over the years. Not to sound too immature, but if the Academy made a stipulation that they will award an honorary Oscar to one actress and one actor this year due to superb performances which happened to air on television, and then announced the awards for these two, that would seem justified to me. (Sounds silly, but that's how impressed I was with these actors.)

It's only very recently that the Academy has recognized films that didn't open in theatres to be eligible for Oscars. Linda Fiorentino lost out on an almost sure-fire nomination for The Last Seduction b/c it was first shown on HBO. Wiki entry.

I think the Emmys have become a lot more prestigious over the years. But I agree that both MW and SR were phenomenal and the final scene was amazing. I hope they get a lot of awards recognition this year. 

[Inquisitionist]

On 5/30/2019 at 7:41 PM, Rinaldo said:

A further thought about Gwen Verdon from my own experience growing up in the 1950s-60s: Because she made only one movie as a musical star, and no other movies from then (1958) until Cocoon in 1985, it may not be realized how familiar she really was to national TV audiences. 

I remember seeing Verdon in episodes of M*A*S*H and Homicide: Life on the Street without really knowing who she was.  This series has been a marvelous education as well as entertainment.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I didn't make the connection until I read Tom Selleck 's interview that Gwen had played his mom on Magnum. I believe it had been mentioned here. I wonder if the scene where Bob suggests Tom play him in ATJ was a real thing or if it was a sly nod to this future casting. 

My understanding is that Tom Selleck's career didn't really take off until Magnum PI, so it seems unlikely he would have really been well known enough to be considered for ATJ.

On 5/30/2019 at 1:27 PM, sistermagpie said:

But I never really felt like I understood Nicole. The attention the show spent on her felt superficial and perfunctory. It might have been better if they hadn't even tried to cover her drug and alcohol problems and kept her in the background if they weren't reall

 I didn't understand what they were trying to do with Nicole.  She was just kind of there, and I was surprised the epilogue seemed to focus more on her than Gwen.  I mean, it's nice that Nicole got treatment for her substance abuse problems, but I also don't really care.  

[voiceover]

Here's the ending to the New Yorker article on Ann.  What a lovely summing-up!:

When I asked what Fosse numbers still stick in her mind, Reinking mentioned “I Wanna Be a Dancin’ Man,” the Act II opener from “Dancin’.” “Even though it was a tribute to Fred Astaire, the lyrics are very Bob,” she said. (“I wanna be a dancin’ man / While I can / Gonna leave my footsteps on the sands of time.”) “He felt that any step, even if it’s on sand—it’s always footprints in the sand, and it can get washed away by wind or the sea. It doesn’t matter.  It's that important that it existed at all."

[elle]

28 minutes ago, voiceover said:

Here's the ending to the New Yorker article on Ann.  What a lovely summing-up!:

When I asked what Fosse numbers still stick in her mind, Reinking mentioned “I Wanna Be a Dancin’ Man,” the Act II opener from “Dancin’.” “Even though it was a tribute to Fred Astaire, the lyrics are very Bob,” she said. (“I wanna be a dancin’ man / While I can / Gonna leave my footsteps on the sands of time.”) “He felt that any step, even if it’s on sand—it’s always footprints in the sand, and it can get washed away by wind or the sea. It doesn’t matter.  It's that important that it existed at all."

Bob and Gwen performing the number on The Gary Moore Show in 1962.  They project such joy, it is fun to watch. We know there is pain there, more pain to come and yet there was magic when these two came together.

[Rinaldo]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

My understanding is that Tom Selleck's career didn't really take off until Magnum PI, so it seems unlikely he would have really been well known enough to be considered for ATJ.

I don't know whether he actually was or not, but as I mentioned a few comments back, he was Stephen Spielberg's first choice for Indiana Jones and was offered the role -- and that was around the same time, before Magnum.* So he was in producers' minds at that date as one of the up-and-coming star types, and would have been by no means out of the question -- after Richard Dreyfuss dropped out they were looking in many directions. 

(*In fact, the fact that Selleck had just signed on for Magnum forced him to turn down Raiders of the Lost Ark. Then the start of filming for the series ended up getting delayed, and it turned out he could have done the movie after all, but Harrison Ford had been cast.)

[txhorns79]

7 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

I don't know whether he actually was or not, but as I mentioned a few comments back, he was Stephen Spielberg's first choice for Indiana Jones and was offered the role -- and that was around the same time, before Magnum.*

ATJ would have been casting in '78, nearly two years before the pilot of Magnum was filmed.  It's unlikely Tom Selleck would have been well known enough for his name to be thrown around in the manner it was.  You are right though, it's certainly possible he was considered as one of the dozens of people they may have looked at during casting.     

[AgentRXS]

It is a damn shame that Gwen Verdon's name was mostly lost to history (outside of theater circles) before this show.  I'm so thankful for all the clips posted here. She deserves to be remembered as much as Bob is. Michelle Williams killed it in this role, even if her dancing was pretty clunky compared to the actual Gwen.  The last episode was fantastic.  I hope Michelle sweeps the Emmys this year.

Edited June 4, 2019 by AgentRXS

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

ATJ would have been casting in '78, nearly two years before the pilot of Magnum was filmed.  It's unlikely Tom Selleck would have been well known enough for his name to be thrown around in the manner it was.  You are right though, it's certainly possible he was considered as one of the dozens of people they may have looked at during casting.     

I feel like they wouldn't have thrown that in if it wasn't true just for the joke that he's a hairy guy. If we all don't associate Tom Selleck with the late 70s surely the writers/producers/actors would have thought the same and questioned it. It's not like Magnum PI isn't aggressively 80s.

[alexvillage]

I am just happy that Tom Selleck wasn't Joe Gideon, or anything else other than Magnum. I love All That Jazz and I don't think I could haven enjoyed it with that jerk as the star. 

[cpcathy]

23 minutes ago, alexvillage said:

I am just happy that Tom Selleck wasn't Joe Gideon, or anything else other than Magnum. I love All That Jazz and I don't think I could haven enjoyed it with that jerk as the star. 

I'm glad too, I developed an appreciation for Roy Scheider as Joe from ATJ.

[Door County Cherry]

8 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

  It's unlikely Tom Selleck would have been well known enough for his name to be thrown around in the manner it was. 

Right.  For me, I could buy that Fosse thought of him but it's perhaps less believable that Nicole would be able to recognize him enough to say "dream on."  

It'd be one thing if he were one of the theater people who eventually transition to TV/films but it doesn't look like he did tons of theater that they'd know of him before much of the rest of the world. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Can someone tell if when Fosse offered Gwen the role to go back on the road, just when she was talking about moving to the country, he was trying to sabotage her and derail her plans, or was it a genuine act of compassion and honesty?  And, then, when he wanted her to go to LA and help with Sweet Charity, was that genuine or an attempt at sabotage?  I found it difficult to tell if he was an A hole all the time or just most of the time.  

[Rinaldo]

10 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Can someone tell if when Fosse offered Gwen the role to go back on the road, just when she was talking about moving to the country, he was trying to sabotage her and derail her plans, or was it a genuine act of compassion and honesty?  

Of those two alternatives, certainly the latter -- but even more, it was an act of desperation and survival. I doubt that it played out exactly as dramatized here.

The thing is, the national tour of Chicago opened with a different cast (aside from Jerry Orbach and M. O'Haughey), Roxie and Velma being played by Penny Worth and Carolyn Kirsch -- no doubt excellent Fosse dancers, but in no sense stars. (I'm a reasonably seasoned theater buff, and I've never heard of them.) They seemed to have the idea that "the show is the star" and it simply wasn't. I recall, visiting my parents in Chicago at the time, that there were newspaper stories of how poorly the tour was selling, it might have to close suddenly, and that there were plans to bring Verdon and Rivera in to attract audiences. That is exactly what happened, and it worked; the tour kept going for a year at least.

19 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

And, then, when he wanted her to go to LA and help with Sweet Charity, was that genuine or an attempt at sabotage?

What would it have sabotaged? It was a chance to pass on her insights, which was something she always seemed to take pleasure in doing. That was seen in the very first scenes of the series, when she gave the "Big Spender" girls subtext for why they were doing the moves they did.

Whatever can be said about the way the two of them lived their personal lives, their respect for and reliance on each other seemed to remain real.

As to the mention of Tom Selleck, I've defended the mention of his name as possible at that date (his screen career had been building through the 1970s toward whatever was going to turn out to be his big break). But in fact I wonder if the use of his name was a kind of in-joke, perhaps suggested by the real Nicole as a compliment to him for giving her mom some high-visibility TV work late in life. (Maybe Nicole even visited the set in Hawaii and got to know him.)

[scrb]

So Fosse was a lousy human being and Verdon was a doormat who enabled a lot of his behavior.

But they put on great shows so their talent redeems their behavior?

Also seems like they had no business being parents and ruined their daughter, at least through some part of her adulthood.

One of the last scenes, they're watching another dancer/singer do one of the numbers and they're contemptuous of her performance.  Fosse tells Verdon to show her how to do it and Verdon does this false modesty "are you serious, me, dance and sing now?"

Of course she does it.  How convenient, she was wearing a leotard, so ready to take over.

Then the last scene of them looking into each other as he's dying (or he dies when they take him to the hospital IRL) is suppose to show they're true to each other in the end?

Wonder if they'd approve of that Hollywood ending.  Would Verdon think that had a "real edge?"

[Suzn]

23 hours ago, AgentRXS said:

It is a damn shame that Gwen Verdon's name was mostly lost to history (outside of theater circles) before this show.  I'm so thankful for all the clips posted here. She deserves to be remembered as much as Bob is. Michelle Williams killed it in this role, even if her dancing was pretty clunky compared to the actual Gwen.  The last episode was fantastic.  I hope Michelle sweeps the Emmys this year.

I've been wondering why Gwen Verdon was so familiar to me, forever.  I doubt that I saw Damn Yankees at the time it was released and saw it much later on TV.  The only answer I can come up with it that there used to be lots of variety shows and I grew up familiar with some Broadway stars and music (all the way to a farm in Kansas).

[kitmerlot1213]

23 hours ago, AgentRXS said:

It is a damn shame that Gwen Verdon's name was mostly lost to history (outside of theater circles) before this show.  I'm so thankful for all the clips posted here. She deserves to be remembered as much as Bob is. Michelle Williams killed it in this role, even if her dancing was pretty clunky compared to the actual Gwen.  The last episode was fantastic.  I hope Michelle sweeps the Emmys this year.

I also remember when Gwen made an appearance on the Rosie O'Donnell show and I thought it was cool that Rosie was exposing non-Broadway viewers to famous theater stars.  I do love that we can still see Gwen's dance numbers on YouTube and Michelle Williams did a credit to her legacy by doing such a superb job playing her.

I still can't get passed the actress they chose to play Ann though.  Her line during her audition for "All that Jazz"  was "No Joe, I know him from ballet class" and it somehow became into "No cho, I know him from baway cwass."  The speech impediment was jarring and took me out of most of her scenes--I wonder what Ann thought of that because she very much does NOT talk like that.

[iMonrey]

Quote

As to the mention of Tom Selleck, I've defended the mention of his name as possible at that date (his screen career had been building through the 1970s toward whatever was going to turn out to be his big break). But in fact I wonder if the use of his name was a kind of in-joke, perhaps suggested by the real Nicole as a compliment to him for giving her mom some high-visibility TV work late in life. (Maybe Nicole even visited the set in Hawaii and got to know him.)

I'd say that's a stretch. All That Jazz would have been in the planning stages well before anyone had ever heard of Tom Selleck, but the writers chose someone who they thought was period appropriate, or close enough, and recognizable to today's audiences. I just don't think they put that much thought into it.

Quote

I still can't get passed the actress they chose to play Ann though.  Her line during her audition for "All that Jazz"  was "No Joe, I know him from ballet class" and it somehow became into "No cho, I know him from baway cwass."  The speech impediment was jarring and took me out of most of her scenes--I wonder what Ann thought of that because she very much does NOT talk like that.

I agree Ann's character was underserved in this production, but I find that less problematic than the way Nicole was handled. The show is called Fosse/Verdon, after all. Ann wasn't as crucial to the story. Nicole is different, she's a product of Fosse and Verdon and the writers couldn't seem to decide if they really wanted to flesh out her character or not, so what little they did felt half-assed.

[mightysparrow]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I agree Ann's character was underserved in this production, but I find that less problematic than the way Nicole was handled. The show is called Fosse/Verdon, after all. Ann wasn't as crucial to the story. Nicole is different, she's a product of Fosse and Verdon and the writers couldn't seem to decide if they really wanted to flesh out her character or not, so what little they did felt half-assed.

I think its possible that Ann Reinking was put in the proper place in this story.  She's known as Bob Fosse's 'muse' but was she really?  What work of his is built around Ann the way his work was built around Gwen?

I have a feeling that the reason Gwen was always so nice to Ann was because she never saw her as a real threat to her relationship with Bob.  Ann was a 23 year old chorus girl when she got with Bob Fosse.  At the time, Gwen said that Ann was good enough that she didn't NEED to fuck Bob.  But even at such a young age, Ann probably saw that being Fosse's girlfriend wouldn't hurt her career.  It doesn't seem that Ann did anything to prevent Bob from living his life the way HE wanted to live it, unlike Gwen.  In the New Yorker article, Ann says that Bob's friends were always nice to her.  Of course they were nice to her; they were nice to Nicole too!  But I doubt they took her very seriously. 

In 'Fosse/Verdon, Gwen tells Bob that she broke up with Ron and Bob tells Gwen he broke up with Ann.  And then they move on to another subject without missing a beat.

It doesn't seem that Nicole gave Ann a heads-up or warned her about how she was going to be portrayed.  So whatever close relationship they had in the past hasn't lasted. Ann Reinking has been presenting herself as the keeper of the Fosse flame for years.  Nicole Fosse might be ready to claim her place as the REAL heir to Bob Fosse and Gwen Verdon's legacy.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

It doesn't seem that Nicole gave Ann a heads-up or warned her about how she was going to be portrayed.  So whatever close relationship they had in the past hasn't lasted. Ann Reinking has been presenting herself as the keeper of the Fosse flame for years.  Nicole Fosse might be ready to claim her place as the REAL heir to Bob Fosse and Gwen Verdon's legacy.

Are you saying that Ann was portrayed in an unflattering way? Or has Reinking or Nicole said that they hadn't talked about the show at all?

I don't think Nicole would ever be able to take the keeper of the flame role from AR since Ann is the one who could dance the stuff so excellently.

[Rinaldo]

5 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

What work of his is built around Ann the way his work was built around Gwen?

Dancin'. 

[alexvillage]

I don't know if Ann was portrayed in a flattering way or the other way around, or if it was just right. The show wasn't really about her. I also don't know if she would be who she is if not for her relationship with Bob. And I don't think it matters much, because the relationship happened, she does have her story to tell. I do have an opinion about how she seems do explain Bob's actions towards women, his abuses, as if the times and environment makes things right. 

13 hours ago, mightysparrow said:

Nicole Fosse might be ready to claim her place as the REAL heir to Bob Fosse and Gwen Verdon's legacy.

She already does. She runs the foundation that works to keep Bob's work "pure". If it runs like the one that give Balanchine rights to companies, it is really strict.

[luvthepros]

On 4/24/2019 at 11:15 AM, mightysparrow said:

I like the fact that he's showing that Fosse was a good but not GREAT dancer and how much that ate at him.

I have always thought Fosse was a phenomenal dancer. He did a damn good job keeping up with Tommy Rall who, IMHO, was one of the very best dancers ever. I'm sure this has been posted on this site already but here it is again (I never tire of watching this).....

Fosse and Tommy Rall - Alley Dance

[Rinaldo]

6 hours ago, luvthepros said:

I have always thought Fosse was a phenomenal dancer. He did a damn good job keeping up with Tommy Rall who, IMHO, was one of the very best dancers ever. I'm sure this has been posted on this site already but here it is again (I never tire of watching this).....

Thanks for posting this, @luvthepros. Fosse's motivations for the career shift were complicated, I think. One was that his movie identity was as "dancing juvenile," and one's years to look boyish are limited -- the same issue hit his fellow inhabitants of that category, Bobby Van and Tommy Rall, around the same time.

As we were mentioning other show-business biographies that should be told, I'm going to repeat what I've said elsewhere: Someone needs to write a thorough biography of Tommy Rall. Clearly thoroughly trained (he did some actual ballet early on), he then became one of the MGM dancer-boys, then turned to stage work in the years around 1960 [not 1950, as I originally mistyped] with some original casts of musicals (not always a dancing role), then surprisingly did leading tenor roles in opera for a few years (big ones -- Berg, Bizet, Puccini), then would turn up in maybe one movie role per decade (e.g. Pennies from Heaven). I get curious about not only how one person can have such varied skills, but how he supported himself between such widely spaced engagements. A brief online biography, assembled from secondary sources, suggests that he may have done bank work. He's still around, apparently living in the LA area, and I need a whole book devoted to him.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Rinaldo

[luvthepros]

On 4/25/2019 at 9:15 AM, Popples said:

If it hadn't been for that Slate article, I would have never realized that Paddy was Norbert Leo Butz. I saw his name in the titles and kept looking for him, but he's totally unrecognizable to me with that beard.

Yup. Me too......kept looking for him. I saw NLB on Broadway in "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels" and was bowled over with his talent. He is truly a gifted performer. He had John Lithgow to feed off of in his performance.

Edited June 12, 2019 by luvthepros

[Jordan Baker]

1 hour ago, Rinaldo said:

As we were mentioning other show-business biographies that should be told, I'm going to repeat what I've said elsewhere: Someone needs to write a thorough biography of Tommy Rall. Clearly thoroughly trained (he did some actual ballet early on), he then became one of the MGM dancer-boys, then turned to stage work in the years around 1950 with some original casts of musicals (not always a dancing role), then surprisingly did leading tenor roles in opera for a few years (big ones -- Berg, Bizet, Puccini), then would turn up in maybe one movie role per decade (e.g. Pennies from Heaven). I get curious about not only how one person can have such varied skills, but how he supported himself between such widely spaced engagements. A brief online biography, assembled from secondary sources, suggests that he may have done bank work. He's still around, apparently living in the LA area, and I need a whole book devoted to him.

Thanks for all this info, Rinaldo. I know Tommy Rall from the movie version of Kiss Me, Kate but I had no idea that he was such a talented singer. 

As to the whole book--maybe you should write it!

[smartymarty]

On 5/29/2019 at 11:05 AM, mightysparrow said:

Like it or not, Fosse is much more famous than Gwen Verdon and his name was what pulled in viewers.  It surprised me to hear so many people say that they LOVED Bob Fosse but had never heard of Gwen Verdon.

I knew of Gwen Verdon from doing Damn Yankees in high school in 1982. Had never heard of Fosse until the show "Fosse" on Broadway. Since I never saw the show, I always considered Verdon the bigger name, with Fosse "just" a choreographer.

[txhorns79]

2 hours ago, smartymarty said:

Like it or not, Fosse is much more famous than Gwen Verdon and his name was what pulled in viewers. 

I felt like the show was so niche, that the people watching knew who both were. 

Edited June 7, 2019 by txhorns79

[CeeBeeGee]

On 4/24/2019 at 12:41 PM, mightysparrow said:

So well said.  That was the key for me.   That explained what made Fosse Fosse.  It's why so many messed up people become performers.  The audience see 'tits and teeth' but the person on stage is screaming.  And at the end, they get to take a bow.

Full fathom five thy father lies...nothing of him that doth fade, but doth suffer a sea change, into something rich and strange. I always read that passage in The Tempest (Ariel is describing the drowning of Ferdinand's father) as a metaphor about the artistic process, spinning pain into something to last the ages.

On 5/29/2019 at 8:40 PM, sistermagpie said:

I felt bad for Star 80 getting dismissed again as just the movie that got him bad reviews. I liked it when I saw it and now would like to see it again.

Star 80 is a fantastic movie but very, very difficult to watch. Re: the anecdote about his telling Eric Roberts "You're playing me if I hadn't been successful"--I can only hope he said that as a way to motivate a talented actor who couldn't quite look into the abyss. I don't see Bob as that misogynistic. Fucked up and dark, yes. But I can't imagine him ever being capable of doing what that monster did to Dorothy. (She was only 20 when she was murdered. Twenty. She was just a kid, not even old enough to drink. I read Bog's incredibly self-serving book The Killing of the Unicorn where he puts down Hef and every other moth who fluttered around her as a lech and a dirty old man, and I'm thinking "And so are you, and always have been. Cybill Shepherd, Dorothy's younger sister...you are no different from Hef.")

On 5/30/2019 at 10:16 AM, Rinaldo said:

That's one of those names I found myself thinking "That's probably true, but it'll sound too early for Tom Selleck, so maybe they should've changed it." By the late 1970s, he was becoming visible enough (he really "popped" in a couple of Rockford Files episodes) that he was one of the young-leading-man types who was routinely being considered for movies and TV. He was first choice for Raiders of the Lost Ark, for instance, but it turned out he had just signed for Magnum. 

Now that it's over, I can stop hinting around about A Chorus Line, as it turned out they never used that story -- and it seems like it would have been a natural for the penultimate episode had they not decided to confine it to the hospital story. It's hinted at only when friends are telling Bob that Chicago will win all the awards and he mutters "tell that to Michael Bennett." The two were the same season of course, and ACL was getting all the press.

But the crowning insult was when Bennett petitioned to have Donna McKechnie (to most perceptions, one of an ensemble cast -- that was the whole point of the show) considered for Tony Award purposes in the Leading Actress category (the one category in which Chicago had felt safe from competition). And he succeeded. Gwen and Chita were so outraged by this, they refused to perform on the Tony telecast. It was left to Jerry Orbach to represent the show with "All I Care About Is Love." And indeed, that season represents one of the classic shut-outs: Chicago was nominated for 11 awards, and won none. Surely it was in their minds afterwards that, respectable as their two-year run was, it might have been longer had they had a better break with awards and visibility.

So messed up--ACL, while an excellent show, surely does not have a superior score to Chicago. And Bennett was full of tittery drama queen headgames like that. I love ACL but I can't stand Bennett. He always, always tried to make himself the center of attention--perhaps the worst example is how he restaged the ending of I Am Telling You in Dreamgirls to take away the thunderous applause that surely would've greeted Jennifer Holliday's amazing solo by cutting off the last couple of phrases so that the other dreamgirls come bustling in. Just to fuck her over, just to wave a finger in her face and say "I'm the star, not you." I hate how he tried to screw over the very dancers whose own life stories are the backbone of the show! Not at all surprised he put up Donna for Leading Actress even though Cassie is only a featured role.

I absolutely loved this show. That last episode--I knew Bob was going to tap dance at Paddy's funeral but I did not expect that. Absolutely heartbreaking. And the scene on the sidewalk--I was sobbing in front of the TV. They really were soulmates.

[raven]

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I felt like the show was so niche, that the people watching knew who both were. 

I had never heard of Gwen but had tangentially heard of Fosse.  I saw ATJ when it first came out but I was a kid and don't remember much about it, except for some of the dance numbers.  I was intrigued because of the Fosse name, Sam Rockwell whom I like, and the previews I saw.

I'm happy I watched because for the things I didn't know - I found Gwen to be a fascinating person and Michelle Williams's performance was outstanding.

[Rhetorica]

I missed the finale.  But it was worth it!  Great show!  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1.8 scenes

Mr. Bojangles

Showstopper

Roxie

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside look: Nicole Fosse

Inside look: choreography

Inside look: recreating Broadway

Inside look: artists' struggles

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Joel Grey discusses Cabaret and Bob Fosse:

Bob Fosse on Liza Minnelli, Gwen Verdon, and more

Gwen Verdon's final onstage appearance in a one night only 1997 "Sweet Charity" concert at Lincoln Center (with Robert Goulet and Charles Nelson Reilly)

Gwen Verdon on the Rosie O'Donnell Show

The story about Gwen's standing ovation in Can-Can plus a clip of Gwen and Bob dancing The Pony Dance (from New Girl in Town) - the guy talking danced with Gwen!

Gwen performs on the Bob Hope Show (the piece was choreographed by Bob):

Gwen performs "I'm a Brass Band" from Sweet Charity on the Ed Sullivan Show:

[luvthepros]

On 5/21/2019 at 11:21 PM, sistermagpie said:

I assumed they were going to adopt and then Gwen got pregnant unexpectedly?

This is how I saw it too. (I'm late to the party and watching the series On Demand)

One question or concern......why didn't Gwen raise her son along with Nicole? I don't understand why she eliminated her son from her life when she longed for children.

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, luvthepros said:

This is how I saw it too. (I'm late to the party and watching the series On Demand)

One question or concern......why didn't Gwen raise her son along with Nicole? I don't understand why she eliminated her son from her life when she longed for children.

When she got pregnant the first time she was very young, had no career and didn't yet really long for a child. Raising her son meant spending her life in the town where she was born and being married to (and financially dependent on) the father. She left the son to make a career and life for herself. Then when she was older and had a career she was at a time in her life when she wanted children. By the time Nicole was born in 1963 her son would have been 20 years old and Gwen was a very different person.