Fosse/Verdon - General Discussion

[Rinaldo]

50 minutes ago, Jordan Baker said:

That was genuine surprise. I knew that the Times critic was, well, critical to the success of a show, but I didn't realize that Clive Barnes wasn't all in on Sondheim. (I'm completely biased though. For me, Sondheim can do no wrong.) Now I'm curious to read some more of his reviews.  Thanks!

Clive Barnes was notorious for not "getting" Sondheim, especially but not only musically. He took Follies to be just another example of camp nostalgia like then-current No No Nanette or 70, Girls, 70, and dismissed its score with these words:

Quote

I must say that most of them sound like numbers that you have almost only just forgotten, but with good reason. This non-hit parade of pastiche trades on camp, but fundamentally gives little in return... a mixture of this and that, chiefly that.

(Whatever that means.) If you Google "clive barnes sondheim" you'll find a selection of his reviews, and on the 2nd page of results (at least when I try) you'll find Frank Rich's summation, and also the astonishing sentence from the Variety review of Company that I can't even quote in this forum, lest I offend against our language standards (and it's not a matter of cursing). Of Chicago, Barnes said that it had "neither content nor substance." William Goldman's book The Season, about the 1967-68 Broadway season, contains a memorable takedown of Barnes, in which his faults are described at length and summed up in a numbered list. The word "putrescent" is used.

[lucindabelle]

I'm with Clive on "Follies." Have always found it a bore.

Gwen was pretty harsh about Nicole's potential, wasn't she? "Don't get her hopes up." That said, if she were NYCB level, she'd already be training there, as a teen.

I didn't think Bob was especially harsh to that dancer. He hadn't watched the show and did not have time right then.

Aging is particularly harsh for women in the arts but in fairness, Gwen was a dancer, and it's just as hard on men. Interestingly she danced on Fame 10 years later so would have been pushing 70 and her leg kicks were still amazing. She was much more limber than Michelle Williams.

[mightysparrow]

31 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Aging is particularly harsh for women in the arts but in fairness, Gwen was a dancer, and it's just as hard on men. Interestingly she danced on Fame 10 years later so would have been pushing 70 and her leg kicks were still amazing. She was much more limber than Michelle Williams.

Her duet with Debbie Allen in 'Fame' was wonderful.  But Gwen wasn't up to Fosse's complicated choreography for 'Chicago' and they both knew it.  He was actually trying to do her a favour by having her sit on Orbach's knee during the Mary Sunshine number but Gwen would have known WHY he was doing it and it would have stung.  And then to have Bob put the original choreography back when Liza!!! joined the show!  But I don't blame Bob.  Any director would want to see his original vision come to life if he could get the chance.  And he probably figured he didn't owe Gwen much by that point.  He had risked his health to direct Chicago, so in Bob's mind, they were even.

Edited to add:  Under Equity rules, Bob wasn't allowed to give notes to cast members after the show opened.  But this young girl was so green, she probably didn't even know that.  Which is why Bob picked her to be his drug mule.

Edited May 22, 2019 by mightysparrow

[Rinaldo]

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

I'm with Clive on "Follies." Have always found it a bore.

And I've dedicated half my life to it, on various fronts. Ahhh, the subjectivity of art... 🙂 

The Minnelli connection with Chicago is an interesting one. Her youthful energy enabled Bob to restore some staging ideas, at the same her different background as an entertainer meant that she needed adjustments elsewhere -- quite aside from the unavoidable fact that her way of reaching out eagerly to an audience, innate to who she is as a performer, inevitably put back some of the simple warmth and joy that Bob didn't want in the show.

In 1980 she did a TV special with Goldie Hawn that included (concluded with, as I recall) "All That Jazz." It was widely regarded as an unofficial audition for the two of them to star in the (then seemingly imminent, though it didn't happen for two decades) movie of Chicago. Looking at it now, it's easy to enjoy how terrific they both are and how exciting the number is, and at the same time to see that it's the opposite of what Fosse wanted (the words now mean just what they say, jazz is fun and life is great). I wonder how a movie with them at the time would have worked out.

[iMonrey]

The change in actresses playing Nicole was abrupt and startling. Juliet Brett looks nothing like the younger girl who was playing her before, and the change seemed to happen overnight, time-line wise.

[TexasGal]

49 minutes ago, Rinaldo said:

In 1980 she did a TV special with Goldie Hawn that included (concluded with, as I recall) "All That Jazz." It was widely regarded as an unofficial audition for the two of them to star in the (then seemingly imminent, though it didn't happen for two decades) movie of Chicago. Looking at it now, it's easy to enjoy how terrific they both are and how exciting the number is, and at the same time to see that it's the opposite of what Fosse wanted (the words now mean just what they say, jazz is fun and life is great). I wonder how a movie with them at the time would have worked out.

Wow, that choreography is...something.  I was distracted watching their arms flapping around constantly.  I stopped watching about halfway through but couldn't even hear Goldie over Liza, which isn't surprising I guess. 

[teddysmom]

3 hours ago, rur said:

She wasn't dancing too badly at the beginning, but I got the impression that she was supposed to be getting worse as they went on because she was so distracted by her parents arguing in the audience. There were several shots of her looking into the audience instead of focusing on the onstage action.

That's what I thought, that she wasn't paying attention to the dancing because she could tell her parents were arguing. 

In All That Jazz, the little girl who played Nicole was an amazing dancer. The number she does with Anne in Bob's apartment is fantastic. 

I'm wondering how much creative license they took seeing as how Nicole is an EP on the series.  I wouldn't think she'd want her mother to look bad unless it was something that really happened. 

4 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

t should be noted that  the treatment is thoroughly de-Fosse-ized --

You're right and it just dawned on me the dancing, with maybe the exception of the chorus girls in "All I Care About", is very de Fosse ized.  I just can't imagine Chicago being played as a light ish musical.  

[teddysmom]

6 minutes ago, TexasGal said:

. Looking at it now,

Except you can't take your eyes off Liza.  She is so mesmerizing to watch perform. 

[mightysparrow]

42 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

Except you can't take your eyes off Liza.  She is so mesmerizing to watch perform. 

I made a point to watch Goldie and I really thought she held her own, which is no easy thing to do with Liza taking no prisoners.  It's nice to be reminded that Goldie was capable of doing something other than 'adorable', which she did very well.  Nowadays, with every tv actor and reality star with any name recognition working on Broadway, they would be headlining the show.

[AriAu]

This is one time where I am not sure that this episode and its most dramatic moment was well served by the non-linear story telling. The flashback scenes dealt with personal matters  (his cheating with the chorus girl “in her show”, him accusing her of cheating when she got pregnant etc) while the pivotal and most dramatic scene drew mostly from things we saw in prior episodes. I appreciate that the personal and professional were inextricably linked in their relationship, but I think these flashbacks did not lead to the conclusion that he “owed” her that number from a professional standpoint, which is what she brought up. You could argue that the personal shit he put her through meant he owed it to her, but she stressed that making his career is why he owed her. YMMV

On the other hand.

1.       Is Bob Fosse the most manipulative character on TV in quite a while-makes Tony Soprano, Don Draper and Walter White seem like amateurs and he is a real person! The fact that he was  soooo obvious does not excuse it-that routine with the chorus girl was about as obvious a Me Too moment as could exist right up to “you can show me the rest of the apartment”

2.       Is Gwen Verdon his rival in being self-centered and career obsessed as her husband….or maybe that is what it takes to get where they got professionally. To be arguing about the show during their daughter’s recital was a new low point even for them.

3.       I know he is talented, ok insanely talented, but why does Anne Reinking put up with this? The look on her face when Verdon said he had to go back to the studio…”or something” really showed the devastation that his cheating had on her….and on Verdon. I know you cant explain why someone loves someone else, but this lack of respect throws me for a loop.

4.       I know it is a broken record, but the acting is truly stellar and reading above that Michelle Williams did not sue a voice coach just takes it to another level. And, while I have been a huge critic, Sam Rockwell’s dancing was not embarrassing this time! 

5.       The actress now playing Nicole is 26?????? Seriously, seriously...what were they thinking, or after watching this episode and this series, who is she sleeping with?

[12catcrazy]

12 minutes ago, AriAu said:

5.       The actress now playing Nicole is 26?????? Seriously, seriously...what were they thinking, or after watching this episode and this series, who is she sleeping with?

Must say, I thought the same thing.  Just awful - in a show with otherwise good casting - yep "What were they thinking?" 

Also, I just watched the videos of Bebe Neuwirth and of Liza/Goldie.  Wow - that Bebe was slinky and almost - dare I say it? - Dirty (in a good way!).   As lousy as the video quality was, it just about melted my computer screen!   I'm mainly familiar with her from Madam Secretary, and I knew she was a Broadway star, but yowza!  

On the other hand, the Liza/Goldie version didn't do it for me.  Yeah, Liza is a great singer and both women could move but it was almost too chipper and cheerful, and despite their cool outfits, not sexy to me in the least bit.  

[springbarb]

If you're on Twitter, Lin-Manuel Miranda has been watching and tweeting with various friends throughout the series. His guest for the finale will be...Nicole Fosse. Should be interesting!

Edited May 22, 2019 by springbarb

[alexvillage]

31 minutes ago, AriAu said:

On the other hand.

1.       Is Bob Fosse the most manipulative character on TV in quite a while-makes Tony Soprano, Don Draper and Walter White seem like amateurs and he is a real person! The fact that he was  soooo obvious does not excuse it-that routine with the chorus girl was about as obvious a Me Too moment as could exist right up to “you can show me the rest of the apartment”

2.       Is Gwen Verdon his rival in being self-centered and career obsessed as her husband….or maybe that is what it takes to get where they got professionally. To be arguing about the show during their daughter’s recital was a new low point even for them.

3.       I know he is talented, ok insanely talented, but why does Anne Reinking put up with this? The look on her face when Verdon said he had to go back to the studio…”or something” really showed the devastation that his cheating had on her….and on Verdon. I know you cant explain why someone loves someone else, but this lack of respect throws me for a loop.

I am almost finished with the book and they do try to "explain" why they put up with that.  There is some speculation that Bob had Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which is possible by what I am reading (except that the explanation is the old, discredit "refrigerator mother/parent" - that's bull). People who do have NDP excel in manipulating others. When you are with them, you don't always see it. Even when you know that they will try that, you can still fall for it. 

What annoys me in the book is how the people who were interviewed after his death still somewhat defend his actions, as if his talent and his legacy excuse his shitty behavior. 

I am not a medical professional, I never met Bob Fosse, but I did live for years with someone with NDP, that's why I think this speculation is not far fetched. 

[TimWil]

One of my favorite critics’ comments was Clive Barnes’ assessment of the score of Sondheim’s Company (and I might be paraphrasing here): “It’s the type of score that leads you to say to yourself ‘Oh, yeah?’ as opposed to ‘Gee, whiz!’”

I’m not a fan of the casting for the Chicago ensemble in this. They’re depicted as predominantly young which just wasn’t correct. Several of the male ensemble members were actually over thirty, playing members of the press, courtroom spectators and the like. And the ensemble in the episode looked racially diverse when in reality there was one African-American woman (Candy Brown, who was also given the fabulous line “And then he just ran into my knife. He ran into my knife TEN TIMES.”), one woman from Argentina (Graciela Daniele) and that was pretty much it. And why on earth did they feature two members sporting a ponytail? Chicago is set in the 1920s. One of them was a dancer seen in rehearsals and I think maybe the other guy was meant to be the conductor (musical director). Nope. The conductor/musical director was a short, balding middle-aged man named Stanley Lebowski-he can be heard saying “Five, six, seven eight!” leading into the overture on the cast album. I just didn’t get why they felt they had to do that. I realize Fosse/Verdon isn’t a documentary but come on. The least they could do was present a semblance of reality in terms of how the cast looked.

I can only guess that the reason 26 year old Juliet Brett was cast was because the most important material she’d be required to play would be in the finale when Nicole is in her early-mid 20s.

Edited May 22, 2019 by TimWil

[Ohiopirate02]

The actor chosen to play Jerry Orbach was so bad that I kept on getting distracted when he was on screen.  I know Jerry is a legend that had to be difficult to cast, but they did so well with their Liza casting that I was disappointed.   I kept on trying to picture this actor as Lenny Briscoe in 20 years and I could not see it.  I watched the link someone else graciously posted of Jerry as Billy Flynn and it was night and day from what we were shown last night. 

[tennisgurl]

I love Chicago, so of course I will love any episode that is based around it. I especially enjoyed the opening and closing with Gwen doing the opening of the show and ending it in the same style, and when they used Razzle Dazzle when Gwen and Bobby were trying to sell themselves as perspective adoptive parents. Really, a lot of really good editing and cinematography this week, I think it was one of the episodes that best combined the story of Bobby and Gwen and the plays that they worked on. 

Damn Gwen, that whole "your just a balding Astaire wanna be!" rant was harsh. Not totally wrong, as we see in the flashbacks that Bobby was always self conscious about not being the well known star that Gwen was, and we have seen throughout the whole show that Bobby is frequently a dick who deserves to be yelled at, it was still the kind of nasty brutal blow that only someone who knows you really well can give. Plus, in the words of The Dude, Bobby's not wrong, he’s just an asshole". The number does work better as a duet between Roxie and Velma, and I cant imagine it otherwise, and just trying it out isnt such an insane ask from a director, but it does feel like him going after Gwen, or that he does not think she can handle the part anymore. I mean, Gwen is certainly the nicest of the Bobby/Gwen duo, but she can be petty and mean as well. 

Poor Nicole, you could see her getting sadder and sadder and her dancing getting sloppier as she watched her parents bickering instead of watching her dance. It was sweet how Ron was paying so much attention to her performing and kept trying to get Bobby and Gwen to pay attention to her. Its nice that he is so supportive of her dancing dreams, even if she might not end up in the New York City ballet.

Paddy continues to steal scene after scene, and I love all his scenes with Bobby. He clearly cares about him and tries to look out for Bobby, but does not ever take his crap and calls him on his bullshit. I also have to give props to the male dancer who wouldn't get Bobby drugs, I mean Bobby could have tossed him right out of the play. But that poor dancer he manipulated into being his drug connection! 

Isn't it good, isnt it great...

Edited May 22, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Rinaldo]

2 hours ago, 12catcrazy said:

On the other hand, the Liza/Goldie version didn't do it for me.  Yeah, Liza is a great singer and both women could move but it was almost too chipper and cheerful, and despite their cool outfits, not sexy to me in the least bit.  

Yep, that was exactly my point in giving the link; I find the difference interesting to ponder. Liza/Goldie starts out in the first four bars as if it's going to be true to the in-show rendition (the trumpet growl, the thumping vamp) and then becomes a light good-time TV production number, cheery and family-friendly. Which is possibly true to a surface reading of the words in a way, but we can see that Bob was absolutely right to insist on the seamy undertones.

Just as a matter of information (because her career began so long ago), Goldie Hawn actually had more of a strict traditional dance training than Liza: her mother ran a dance school, as did she herself in the early 1960s, and she was the sort of ballet kid who appears in the annual Nutcracker production. But of course Liza is the star whom it's impossible to look away from.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Rinaldo

[Spartan Girl]

Props to this show for not being afraid to show Gwen's warts. It would be easy to show her as a victim who's always right (even when wrong) and always wronged, but there's not of that here. She knew exactly who Bob was when she hooked up with him -- he was on his SECOND wife -- and stuck with him through repeated affairs before finally leaving. 

[SeanC]

21 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

The business about Liza Minnelli taking over as Roxie for 6 weeks is perfectly true. They had no publicity, she didn't appear on the posters (or in the program? not sure about that), and each night before the show, an announcer said "Tonight the role of Roxie Hart will be played by Liza Minnelli."

I found it extremely naive if anybody thought that Liza Minnelli suddenly turning up on Broadway wouldn't be all over town the night of the first performance.

[raven]

8 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Gwen was pretty harsh about Nicole's potential, wasn't she? "Don't get her hopes up."

She also probably wouldn't want her daughter in the business.  I also thought it was interesting but almost immediately after, she's pumping up Ron being cast in something; he says he's the understudy.  Of course Gwen would be more protective of her daughter than her boyfriend (I read somewhere that "Ron" was not an actual person but a compilation).  

I feel sorry for Nicole though I love Gwen's ambition.  She HAS to speak up and she knows it.   When she tells Ron to basically butt out of her parental worry about Nicole - this is after her surgery, when he's telling her she doesn't have to work - I don't doubt that she wants financial stability for Nicole, but Gwen wants to work, to perform - it's who she is. 

Gwen is being portrayed as human and again, Michelle Williams had so much to work with this episode. 

It was nice to see a little Sam Rockwell dancing.  Bob was his usually dickish self but he also cares about Gwen and I liked that he called and told her about Liza, rather than her hearing it from someone else.  They know each other very well.    He is quiet during Gwen's rant and then just repeats his prior statement when she's done.  That poor woman he coerces into getting his drugs says he's liked because he doesn't yell at the dancers.   I don't know anything about the business, so I wonder if that was true or if she was just telling him what he wanted to hear.  Maybe he was liked, except for the drugs and sexual harassment (sarcasm).

[kieyra]

The confusion over the baby scene at the end is one of my only complaints with this show (as a non Broadway person). They give us no visual cues for the time shifts with Gwen’s appearance. She looks exactly the same in the “trying to conceive” era as she does in the “I have a 30-year-old daughter in high school now” era. Unlike Fosse’s waxing and waning hairline. Aside from a few performance or awards costumes, and that one clip-on hair piece, she looks pretty much the same across all storylines. Same age, same hairstyle, same makeup, mostly the same clothing, give or take a hideous pantsuit.

Michelle Williams gave a good “aging and exhausted” performance but she could have been “35 and has the flu, same hairstyle”. 

Edit: wait, is the bizarre casting of Nicole some sort of meta-commentary on Gwen playing an “ingenue” at her age?

returns to lurking

Edited May 23, 2019 by kieyra

[Loandbehold]

So, I watched the Liza/Goldie "All That Jazz" number. The plinky piano notes, and I'm sure I heard a cowbell in there. Those who said it was too sunny were right. It's an interesting cover of the song, but definitely would not belong in the show as it came to be. 

As for Bebe Neuwirth, I first saw her as Lilith Crane on Cheers. Never suspected she was a Broadway actress until she played the lead in Chicago. 

[kieyra]

My mind just dredged up an old memory of watching All That Jazz on cable as a kid. Doesn’t Gwen’s “stand in” character have a scene where she’s obviously in pain rehearsing, but tries to cover for it when (not Bob) comes into the room? 

So, since Fosse wrote ATJ, I guess that’s how he saw her. Over the hill and deeply concerned about his opinion on it. 

[Rinaldo]

30 minutes ago, kieyra said:

All That Jazz ... Doesn’t Gwen’s “stand in” character have a scene...

The Gwen-equivalent character, by the way, was played by Leland Palmer, who created the role in Pippin (Fastrada) that one might have expected Gwen to play if it were bigger. It's the circle of life....

[sistermagpie]

17 hours ago, kieyra said:

My mind just dredged up an old memory of watching All That Jazz on cable as a kid. Doesn’t Gwen’s “stand in” character have a scene where she’s obviously in pain rehearsing, but tries to cover for it when (not Bob) comes into the room? 

Oh yeah. She does a high kick and gets a sharp pain, then not-Bob (aka Joe) comes in and she pretends she's fine.

She also basically lays out a version of a lot of things Gwen said in this show. He says he's only doing the show because she wants to play that "24 year old girl" (the age of the character she's playing gets brought up a lot--it's even the last line of the fake script). She says she knew he didn't think she can do it but she will play her and if he wants to quit the show he can, but she tells him not to fool himself that he's doing it for any other reason than feeling guilty for not being faithful to her for a single day.

But she also ends the scene laughing at incorrigible Joe driving her crazy. Here she was full of actual righteous rage. In fact, nobody in the movie ever says anything to Joe that really hurts him because he doesn't really have any weaknesses or insecurities except about not being great and he mostly just worries about that himself. Certainly nobody in his circle of family/friends/lovers ever seems to think he's not the very best. The one bad review he gets is obviously off-base.

One thing in this ep I couldn't help but think is it seems almost impossible for Gwen to be doing the show because from all the scenes we see she never seems to rehearse. I mean, she goes to the rehearsals for the actual show of course, but otherwise she always seems to be hanging at home or talking with Bob. Presumably she would have been spending hours and hours in dance class every day, right? To be able to do this?

Edited May 23, 2019 by sistermagpie

[lucindabelle]

Why would Michelle Williams need a vocal coach? She's a legit broadway star and was Sally in Cabaret with Alan Cummings in 2014.

[alexvillage]

10 hours ago, SeanC said:

I found it extremely naive if anybody thought that Liza Minnelli suddenly turning up on Broadway wouldn't be all over town the night of the first performance.

It was, in a way, and that's why the ticket sales picked up. As I understood (from the book) a change like that would have a billboard-like announcement. In this case, it was the poster at the entrance of the theater and an announcement before the beginning of the show. People did go to the first performance (with Liza) not knowing about the change.

I watched All That Jazz again via Netflix DVD (Thank you Jordan Baker!) and the special features has a conversation between Ann and Erzsebet (Michelle). Interesting that Erzsebet went on to be part of the Twyla Tharp company and she credits her opening up to different styles of dance to Bob and the part in the movie. The last 10 minutes of the conversation (Ann does a lot of the talking) is like a bunch of excuses for "the wrong ideas about who Bob was". Really silly. His legacy as an artist can, and should be separated from his failures (my opinion) as a man.

Edited May 23, 2019 by alexvillage

[Rinaldo]

5 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Why would Michelle Williams need a vocal coach? She's a legit broadway star and was Sally in Cabaret with Alan [Cumming] in 2014.

For the most part, even the most experienced musical theater stars have a vocal coach or teacher whom they continue to work with regularly. It's part of maintaining quality, and healthy vocal production so that they can maintain their standard; and becomes all the more urgent when absorbing the demands of a new role. (Just as even the most experienced dancers continue to take class regularly.)

[AriAu]

Quote

Michelle Williams gave a good “aging and exhausted” performance but she could have been “35 and has the flu, same hairstyle”. 

I re-watched last night and was really, really impressed with how Michelle Williams aged her performance to show Verdon as an aging dancer. Williams dancing skills really popped out to me for the first time watching her move in the rehearsal room during the "Who's Got the Pain" number a few episodes back-she stretched and moved with the ease and comfort of a true and young dancer. By this episode, which was supposed to take place almost 20 years later, the solitary training scenes show a completely different and aged movements....as they should. 

Like I said, really, really impressive acting.

By the way, even on a re-watch, Bob is still a needy asshole

Edited May 23, 2019 by AriAu

[bosawks]

The "sex and satire; he could never get enough" line from his biography has always stuck in my head regarding Fosse.

I don't know if he's as much a narcissist as he is a creature of appetite and why not fulfill them since the whole thing is a fucking joke. 

He's a nihilist but with a wink.

[Suzn]

I have to say that I didn't care for the All That Jazz number by Liza and Goldie.  The dance was intricate and complicated and danced competently but the tone was wrong to me.  I think Bob Fosse's take on the darkness of Chicago was so much superior.  Light, bubbly, and cute with brig grins doesn't cut it for me.  Their pronunciation of "Jazz" was all kinds of cutesy.  I think the songs All That Jazz and Cabaret are the same dark story.

[Loandbehold]

3 hours ago, AriAu said:

By the way, even on a re-watch, Bob is still a needy asshole

Burn Notice, when the character is first introduced, would have had the caption saying at the bottom of the screen:

Bob. Needy Asshole. Followed soon after, or in the next scene with: Bob. Still a needy asshole.

[JeanneH]

10 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Why would Michelle Williams need a vocal coach? She's a legit broadway star and was Sally in Cabaret with Alan Cummings in 2014.

Sally in stageCabaret is supposed to be a bad singer (at least in the original, pre-film release, productions). Judi Dench isn't a singer and she was the original Sally in the West End production (1968), so I would think the actress isn't (wasn't?) required to be much of a singer to do the part. But anyway, I think most singers do have a coach, if only to help keep their voices in shape.

6 hours ago, alexvillage said:

It was, in a way, and that's why the ticket sales picked up. As I understood (from the book) a change like that would have a billboard-like announcement. In this case, it was the poster at the entrance of the theater and an announcement before the beginning of the show. People did go to the first performance (with Liza) not knowing about the change.

Can you imagine expecting to see Gwen Verdon and Chita Rivera and getting Liza Minnelli and Chita Rivera? Still, I bet some people were upset about it.

The last time I saw a production on Broadway an announcement was made just before curtain of all cast changes for that performance ("during this performance the role of Doctor Watson will be played by Basil Rathbone") and there was a slip of paper inserted into the Playbill with the same info. Do they still do this? (do Playbills still exist? I heard they went digital)

Edited May 23, 2019 by JeanneH

[alexvillage]

5 minutes ago, JeanneH said:

The last time I saw a production on Broadway an announcement was made just before curtain of all cast changes for that performance ("during this performance the role of Doctor Watson will be played by Basil Rathbone") and there was a slip of paper inserted into the Playbill with the same info. Do they still do this? (do Playbills still exist? I heard they went digital)

It happened a couple of times with me, recently. Not really "on Broadway", it was the traveling companies. I don't follow the artists, don't really know most of the big names, so I don't care. Besides, there is a lot of talent that we never hear about. The shows went fine with whatever changes.

[rur]

7 minutes ago, JeanneH said:

The last time I saw a production on Broadway an announcement was made just before curtain of all cast changes for that performance ("during this performance the role of Doctor Watson will be played by Basil Rathbone") and there was a slip of paper inserted into the Playbill with the same info. Do they still do this? (do Playbills still exist? I heard they went digital)

They still do it in the provinces. When the touring shows come to Tampa, there's usually a placard in the lobby and an insert in the program. To  be honest, I don't remember if an announcement was made or not. 

[Loandbehold]

1 hour ago, JeanneH said:

The last time I saw a production on Broadway an announcement was made just before curtain of all cast changes for that performance ("during this performance the role of Doctor Watson will be played by Basil Rathbone") and there was a slip of paper inserted into the Playbill with the same info. Do they still do this? (do Playbills still exist? I heard they went digital)

They still do playbills on Broadway (at least they did when I saw Network last month) so they probably also announce cast changes through slips of paper as well as aloud to the audience.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, JeanneH said:

The last time I saw a production on Broadway an announcement was made just before curtain of all cast changes for that performance ("during this performance the role of Doctor Watson will be played by Basil Rathbone") and there was a slip of paper inserted into the Playbill with the same info. Do they still do this? (do Playbills still exist? I heard they went digital)

Playbills still exist for Broadway shows and national tours of Broadway shows. In the lobby is a board with everyone in the company listed by name. Next to that is a board with any cast substitutions for that particular performance. if anyone in the main cast is substituted, there is also a slip of paper in the front of the playbill (sometimes it will just say "the role of Joe will be played by John Smith" and sometimes it will be a list of the entire cast for that performance).

Edited May 23, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ebk57]

Per Equity rules (Actors Equity, the actors union), there are 3 ways to announce understudies:  Lobby board, Playbill insert and loudspeaker announcement before the show.  I believe they have to use 2 of them, usually the lobby board and Playbill insert.

My first actual Broadway show was Chicago with the original cast.  Sat in the front Mezz just off center.  I think the tickets were $15.50.  On that trip I also saw The Wiz and A Chorus Line.  For ACL, I bought a ticket from a guy in front of the theater and sat in the last row of the balcony - for $8.00.  It was a fabulous first trip to NYC. 

[alexvillage]

31 minutes ago, ebk57 said:

Per Equity rules (Actors Equity, the actors union), there are 3 ways to announce understudies:  Lobby board, Playbill insert and loudspeaker announcement before the show.  I believe they have to use 2 of them, usually the lobby board and Playbill insert.

My first actual Broadway show was Chicago with the original cast.  Sat in the front Mezz just off center.  I think the tickets were $15.50.  On that trip I also saw The Wiz and A Chorus Line.  For ACL, I bought a ticket from a guy in front of the theater and sat in the last row of the balcony - for $8.00.  It was a fabulous first trip to NYC. 

It is pretty ridiculous how expensive tickets are these days. The price you paid for your Chicago ticked would probably get you some bottled water today.

[TV Diva Queen]

4 hours ago, JeanneH said:

Sally in stageCabaret is supposed to be a bad singer (at least in the original, pre-film release, productions). Judi Dench isn't a singer and she was the original Sally in the West End production (1968), so I would think the actress isn't (wasn't?) required to be much of a singer to do the part. But anyway, I think most singers do have a coach, if only to help keep their voices in shape.

Can you imagine expecting to see Gwen Verdon and Chita Rivera and getting Liza Minnelli and Chita Rivera? Still, I bet some people were upset about it.

The last time I saw a production on Broadway an announcement was made just before curtain of all cast changes for that performance ("during this performance the role of Doctor Watson will be played by Basil Rathbone") and there was a slip of paper inserted into the Playbill with the same info. Do they still do this? (do Playbills still exist? I heard they went digital)

They still do it and the last 8 musicals/shows I’ve been to in the last 3 years all had paper Playbills. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

26 minutes ago, alexvillage said:

It is pretty ridiculous how expensive tickets are these days. The price you paid for your Chicago ticked would probably get you some bottled water today.

Drinks are pretty ridiculous these days too. These were the drink prices when I saw the national tour of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory a few weeks ago. And that’s on top of the ridiculous ticket prices! 

[kieyra]

We got the “slips of paper” for cast changes in Hamilton on Broadway. (Both the lead and Eliza were out. This was late 2016, the performers’ names escape me, but it was after the first major round of cast changes.)

[Neurochick]

On 5/22/2019 at 1:06 PM, mightysparrow said:

Her duet with Debbie Allen in 'Fame' was wonderful.  But Gwen wasn't up to Fosse's complicated choreography for 'Chicago' and they both knew it.  He was actually trying to do her a favour by having her sit on Orbach's knee during the Mary Sunshine number but Gwen would have known WHY he was doing it and it would have stung.  And then to have Bob put the original choreography back when Liza!!! joined the show!  But I don't blame Bob.  Any director would want to see his original vision come to life if he could get the chance.  And he probably figured he didn't owe Gwen much by that point.  He had risked his health to direct Chicago, so in Bob's mind, they were even.

And wasn't the reason for getting the rights to Chicago about Nicole, so she would be set for life?  If Gwen was serious about that, what did she care that Liza took over for her; if the show was making money, good for Nicole, right?

And yes, Playbills still exist both on and off Broadway.  

I smiled when I saw the playbill for Dear Evan Hansen, as I saw that show at Second Stage, in 2016, before it made it to Broadway.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Neurochick

[mightysparrow]

21 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

The Gwen-equivalent character, by the way, was played by Leland Palmer, who created the role in Pippin (Fastrada) that one might have expected Gwen to play if it were bigger. It's the circle of life....

I didn't know she was in Pippin.  She's so good; it's such a shame she quit the business.

18 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Why would Michelle Williams need a vocal coach? She's a legit broadway star and was Sally in Cabaret with Alan Cummings in 2014.

Every actor worth their salt has a vocal coach.  Eight shows a week are hard on anyone's voice, especially back in the day when people actually USED their voices and weren't miked up the wazoo.

[Rinaldo]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

And wasn't the reason for getting the rights to Chicago about Nicole, so she would be set for life?  If Gwen was serious about that, what did she care that Liza took over for her; if the show was making money, good for Nicole, right?

Those are not mutually exclusive. She could want it for Nicole, and still feel useless and put-out-to-pasture that it was suddenly selling well without her own participation, after all her work. I wouldn't ask anyone to feel cheerful about that. And in fact she probably kept the reaction to herself in public (as usual) and said the proper things about it all.

1 hour ago, mightysparrow said:

Every actor worth their salt has a vocal coach.  Eight shows a week are hard on anyone's voice, especially back in the day when people actually USED their voices and weren't miked up the wazoo.

Basically I agree with the sentiment here, but as a historian of musicals would suggest that it's slightly more nuanced than that. 1, there do remain singers who use their voices and think of the amplification as a boost that gets them safely through 8 a week; as current examples I would mention Kelli O'Hara (who has recently done two roles at the Met, where mikes are forbidden) and Santino Fontana, who sings more than half his role in Tootsie as a mezzo-soprano. 2, amplification of musicals goes back at least to the 1940s  (not universally, but becoming more and more so), through they tried to downplay it and didn't talk about it. (For instance, Julie Andrews has talked about how the mikes used in Camelot were much more helpful to her vocal good health than the older system used a few years earlier in My Fair Lady.)

[alexvillage]

On 5/21/2019 at 11:48 PM, Rinaldo said:

He was right, but she was right too. Nobody's going to show up if you incessantly alienate your audience. (Of course "alienating your audience" is a moving target; when the revival hit Broadway, the material and manner had become more palatable because everyone had seen it become almost normal in real life.) Chicago was a hit in its original run, but not a monster hit (another musical from its season took that role); and its national tour nearly closed on the road until they hastily plugged Verdon and Rivera into their original roles for some name value.

By the way, the characterization we saw of Chita Rivera seems very true to everything I've heard about her (granted that she's still alive, it still matches all the stories): dedicated to the work, no pushover but always amenable to direction, and always supportive of her fellow cast members. She knew she was there partly to take some of the physical burden off Gwen, but she still wasn't going to rob her of her final song.

I agree. I think the episode was really good in showing Gwen's insecurities, as she is getting older and cannot do all that she wanted to do. She had been trying to get the rights for Chicago for over a decade, pretty much all by herself, giving speech to Bob so he could do the things he wanted, waiting and then waiting some more because of his heart attack. And there is always an element of jealousy/envy/fear in an artist's life. 

The scene at Nicole's recital was a bit much but I think that was not something that actually happened, but something that is supposed to convey the conflict, Bob not showing a lot of interest in the show, or maybe the support Gwen wanted him to show (because he was so concerned about getting his drugs?), and Gwen trying to assert herself as the lead, and trying to get her part as best as she thought she could.

In the book, the consensus was that Chita was very uncomfortable with the whole music part - everyone was - and that she wrote a note asking Bob to just give the song to Gwen.

From the previews they are going to cover All That Jazz in the finale and I wonder how far they will go in Bob's life, and if the episode will be a longer one. All That Jazz alone, being so autobiographical, has a lot of material - but I am biased, I want a lot of it.

[kitmerlot1213]

I always enjoy it when Gwen gets to tell Bob off because I don't think it happened to him very often.  I do wonder how genuine was his concern about her vocal cords because the scene was hard to read.  He seemed truly worried about her voice and then the wheels started turning and he realized he could get a younger performer in to play Roxy while Gwen recovered.

I give Nicole a great deal of credit that she was unafraid to show just how ego driven both her parents were--I don't doubt that the Fosse family loved each other, I just think the show comes first.

The actress playing Ann is still annoying me with her weird accent and she comes off as extremely young and wide eyed in too many of her scenes--it's makes Bob look like a pedophile.  I did like how she looked disapproving of Bob's phoning Gwen to rub it in her face about Liza's success.  Yes Ann, this petty man-child is who you hitched your wagon to--good luck with that.

[AriAu]

8 minutes ago, kitmerlot1213 said:

The actress playing Ann is still annoying me with her weird accent and she comes off as extremely young and wide eyed in too many of her scenes--it's makes Bob look like a pedophile.

While not quite a pedophile, Ann was only 23 when Pippen opened and Fosse was 45...altho Rockwell has been playing him older, especially with the thinning hair. And Ann Reinking had a very distinctive voice and I think that Margaret Qualley is capturing the spirit of it even if not a true impersonation.

By the way, Michelle Williams has also captured the spirit of Gwen Verdon's breath voice without doing an impersonation or caricature.

[Rinaldo]

16 minutes ago, AriAu said:

And Ann Reinking had a very distinctive voice and I think that Margaret Qualley is capturing the spirit of it even if not a true impersonation.

Yes, I've come around on Margaret Qualley. She always had the look down, including the distinctive eyes, but now I'm hearing that her speech patterns are remarkably capturing the essence of Ann Reinking's speaking (and as i mentioned a while back, I've had conversations with her... admittedly all of twice in my life 🙂 ).

[alexvillage]

1 hour ago, AriAu said:

While not quite a pedophile, Ann was only 23 when Pippen opened and Fosse was 45...

And later, when he was about 57, he started dating a 22 year-old. It has nothing to do with wanting a young body. It is about being able to woo and, to a certain extent, control.