Endeavour - General Discussion

[tootsie]

On 7/4/2023 at 4:57 PM, Suzn said:

I also don't understand what Thursday and family are going to do.  Doesn't he have a job and house waiting for him?  Is the family going on the run or just Sam?

Good question. I assumed Sam was going to be sent away - (America, maybe, where Jakes is?) because Fred was being transferred to a legit job & new home. If he quits that abruptly or takes early retirement, how will he ever explain that to Win? Confusing to me, too.

[fanestre]

9 minutes ago, tootsie said:

 

I wondered the same thing. Maybe she didn't have any friend willing to take the role? I know it's a little thing but at the rehearsal & the wedding,there wasn't an attendant for the bride that I saw & that bugged me.

I believe it is traditional in British weddings for the brides attendants to all be little girls.  There were 2 or 3 following along with a woman behind them to keep them on track.

[wanderingstar]

7 minutes ago, tootsie said:

I assumed Sam was going to be sent away - (America, maybe, where Jakes is?)

This was my thought as well - that they'd move abroad - if not America, then maybe somewhere Europe. 

[Corvino]

I have watched "Endeavour" from the beginning, after watching "Inspector Morse" and "Lewis" as they came out, but I was so foolish as to have never come here to discuss it till now. I therefore had to spend much of this week reading all the pages before I could comment on the finale. A main reason for coming here was to be reminded of what the Blenheim Vale case was all about; I vaguely knew it was something several seasons ago, and I vividly remembered the awful season finale with Thursday almost fatally wounded in hospital and Morse looking stunned and devastated in jail, but I had not remembered those things were related. The show asked a LOT of its loyal viewers: to remember the names and details, in order to understand the final season, of an episode that aired NINE YEARS AGO???!!!???

But in any case, I watched "Exeunt" with two friends, and we were all satisfied but saddened; when it became apparent that Morse was going to end up separated from all the people he'd had connections with in the series, one friend said "Oh, how sad!" But I was specially devastated at one particular point in Morse's pub confrontation with Thursday. We had indeed been teased with the idea that Thursday would drop dead, but this was worse: he was the murderer in one of the cases??? Tootsie, above, cited the moment that slew me: Morse described Thursday as coming home from the killing  unrecognizable as the captain he would have followed into Hell, and then, with fervent emotion, quoted "I know thee not, old man!" Which are the words the new-crowned King Henry V uses in "Henry IV, Part Two" to tell Falstaff, his beloved mentor and second father in his carefree days as Prince Hal, that he now casts him off! It's a heartbreaking moment in Shakespeare, Falstaff is so shocked by it that it basically kills him, and for Morse to use it to Thursday was just devastating. I burst into tears and distressed my friends after the show when explaining the reference to them.

But then, thank God, Morse walked it back a bit. Thursday explained what had happened, it looked as if it was a quasi-accident while defending himself in the process of protecting his son, and I think Morse got that. So he didn't cast him off like Henry; Thursday and his wife and  son had to go farther away than where he'd been transferred to avoid being killed by the bikers if they ever figured out who killed their guy, but that-- and not because they parted in alienation-- was why Morse never spoke of or saw the Thursday family in "Inspector Morse". (Besides the fact that they didn't exist yet when that series was made, I mean. In-universe explanation.) But Morse spared Thursday from the knowledge that he'd killed the corrupted adult version of the kid they'd been looking for, and he gave him back his retirement money so he and Win now can relax and go dancing, and they parted with some affection.

I say Morse was not playing, but toying with the idea of playing Russian roulette: "What would be the result if I spun it and really aimed at my head?" So he pointed it somewhere else and found that it would have been a nasty result. Then he got on with his life.

But I was very satisfied with his singing like an angel in the chorus, handing in his music and driving away, and passing his older self as he drove up to continue to sing in the chorus. Music, in particular, and opera in especial particular, of the things we know the older Morse loved, definitely can fill life with joy even without a regular family life.

[la patineuse]

On 7/7/2023 at 2:03 AM, Corvino said:

...

But in any case, I watched "Exeunt" with two friends, and we were all satisfied but saddened; when it became apparent that Morse was going to end up separated from all the people he'd had connections with in the series, one friend said "Oh, how sad!" But I was specially devastated at one particular point in Morse's pub confrontation with Thursday. We had indeed been teased with the idea that Thursday would drop dead, but this was worse: he was the murderer in one of the cases??? Tootsie, above, cited the moment that slew me: Morse described Thursday as coming home from the killing  unrecognizable as the captain he would have followed into Hell, and then, with fervent emotion, quoted "I know thee not, old man!" Which are the words the new-crowned King Henry V uses in "Henry IV, Part Two" to tell Falstaff, his beloved mentor and second father in his carefree days as Prince Hal, that he now casts him off! It's a heartbreaking moment in Shakespeare, Falstaff is so shocked by it that it basically kills him, and for Morse to use it to Thursday was just devastating. I burst into tears and distressed my friends after the show when explaining the reference to them.

But then, thank God, Morse walked it back a bit. Thursday explained what had happened, it looked as if it was a quasi-accident while defending himself in the process of protecting his son, and I think Morse got that. So he didn't cast him off like Henry; Thursday and his wife and  son had to go farther away than where he'd been transferred to avoid being killed by the bikers if they ever figured out who killed their guy, but that-- and not because they parted in alienation-- was why Morse never spoke of or saw the Thursday family in "Inspector Morse". (Besides the fact that they didn't exist yet when that series was made, I mean. In-universe explanation.) But Morse spared Thursday from the knowledge that he'd killed the corrupted adult version of the kid they'd been looking for, and he gave him back his retirement money so he and Win now can relax and go dancing, and they parted with some affection.

 

I think Morse distancing himself from Thursday was in part because Thursday and his family have to go to ground, but I also think it was the lost trust and his utter disappointment in Thursday as well.  At their final farewell, Thursday called Morse by his Christian name, but Morse corrected him and said, "Morse, Sir. Just Morse."  It seemed as if Morse was solidifying the divide between them by not allowing Thursday the familiarity of using his first name.  It was also a significant step in transforming young Morse to older Morse.  Endeavour is gone and now he is just Morse.

Edited July 9, 2023 by la patineuse

[Zella]

1 hour ago, la patineuse said:

It seemed as if Morse was solidifying the divide between them by not allowing Thursday the familiarity of using his first name. 

Morse also doesn't like his first name and doesn't use it or even want people close to him knowing it, so using his given name isn't the same sense of familiarity as it is with most people. To me, Morse insisting on still being called Morse isn't inherently distancing due to his complex about his first name. 

Edited July 8, 2023 by Zella

[sagittarius sue]

8 hours ago, Zella said:

Morse also doesn't like his first name and doesn't use it or even want people close to him knowing it, so using his given name isn't the same sense of familiarity as it is with most people. To me, Morse insisting on still being called Morse isn't inherently distancing due to his complex about his first name. 

I enjoyed the situation in a late Morse episode when he received a call from an alumni organization asking for a donation where the caller obviously used his first name.  Morse was very irate.  It wasn't revealed until an episode or two later.

[lark37]

On 7/5/2023 at 1:50 PM, wanderingstar said:

You're not! I adore his real accent, and I'd love to see him in a show or film where he gets to use it!

 

I found the finale “Exeunt” rather boring honestly.  It was as if they tried to throw too many things into it to wind up everyone’s storyline.  With the Blenheim Vale wrap up, Joan’s wedding, and the Charlie story why did they also need to throw in a “new” murder mystery? That one was wrapped up too easily, and the scene with Thursday and Morse and the killer too heavy-handed IMO.  

Shaun Evans is listed in the cast (sporting a full beard too) of a show on Peacock called “Vigil”.  I don’t subscribe to Peacock anymore, but my Roku says it’s available on the Peacock app as a free show. I watched the trailer and it looks interesting.  Evans didn’t say enough in the trailer for me to know whether or not he is using his “real” accent.   My husband and I are in the middle of several other series right now, so I don’t want to begin another yet. I may give Vigil I try soon though.  Sorry to see Endeavour go!  I always enjoyed it despite never being able to get into the original Morse.

[dargosmydaddy]

2 hours ago, lark37 said:

Shaun Evans is listed in the cast (sporting a full beard too) of a show on Peacock called “Vigil”.  I don’t subscribe to Peacock anymore, but my Roku says it’s available on the Peacock app as a free show. I watched the trailer and it looks interesting.  Evans didn’t say enough in the trailer for me to know whether or not he is using his “real” accent.   My husband and I are in the middle of several other series right now, so I don’t want to begin another yet. I may give Vigil I try soon though.  Sorry to see Endeavour go!  I always enjoyed it despite never being able to get into the original Morse.

I watched Vigil last year, and can recommend it... It strains credulity in terms of plot, but it's well acted and gripping enough. And yes, I think he uses his real accent in that one (or at least a lot closer to it than Endeavour). Plus he gets a shower scene!

[Driad]

If Morse was playing Russian roulette, it might have been a bit like a semi-popular decision-making technique:  Flip a coin.  Not to do what the coin says, but to see how you feel about that option.  If Morse fired and got an empty chamber, it might have helped him clarify whether he really wanted to continue living.

At the end, looking into the rear-view mirrors, did older Morse seem to have darker eyes than younger Morse?

[A coin in the hand]

I always think that art, the humanities, is the gift we humans get for having to walk this realm with our fragile hearts and monkey minds. Sometimes we get to see the pure perfection of talent, time, and patience as it crafts a masterpiece. I just was gifted such a masterpiece. I watched the series finale of Endeavor. Perfect. I had watched all of Morse, watched Inspector Lewis, and then this series. The finale was so fleshed out and human. The writing was up to the task of fulfilling an arc and laying the groundwork of foreshadowing the man who we first watched as a closed if not brilliant detective. I am sad that I will not ever be able to experience it for the first time again. But well done. All the characters, all the actors, all the stories, and all the scenery. Just savoring the details and sadly knowing that I won't see these characters again in a new setting. Well done, Endeavor. Well done.

[geekgirl921]

i kept getting worried that something was going to happen to Morse but then I would remember that this is a prequel!

[wanderingstar]

Now that the series has ended, I've started compiling a list of my favorite episodes (in no particular order)

• Girl - One of the, as I call them, Baby Morse episodes, because Shaun Evans looks so damn young! 

• Canticle - Love how impulsive and petulant Morse is this episode (for him anyway). And I adore his contempt for Mrs. Pettybon

• Sway - Great insight into Fred’s time in the war, against the backdrop of a solid mystery

• Neverland - Great but heartbreaking and brutal episode

• Arcadia - Jakes gets a hero moment and a lovely sendoff

• Scherzo - Good mystery AND great character development, especially for Bright

• Pylon - We see the gang scattered to winds and Morse sports the ’stache 

• Deguello - A lot of this episode is very on the nose but still delightful to see the team get George Fancy’s killer

Edited July 18, 2023 by wanderingstar

[Zella]

One of my favorites is Ride. I love the Gatsby vibe transported to the 60s. It's also nice to see David Oakes do a change of pace from the nasty villain roles he usually gets. 

[nara]

Fugue is my favorite! All the opera!

[Anothermi]

On 7/3/2023 at 2:45 PM, magdalene said:

Thursday did not die though they certainly trolled us into thinking he would. He and Morse did part on good terms though Thursday certainly fell off the pedestal in a terrible way.

No matter what Thursday said I believe that killing will haunt him. Morse showed mercy when he didn't tell him who he killed.

There seems to be so much packed into this ending. I wouldn't go as far as saying they parted on good terms. I think Morse was devastated and disillusioned by Thursday's final step away from being the man Morse wanted to emulate. Now he couldn't be trusted to do what was right but only to defend his little family "patch". That phrase "he wasn't MY son"  has become Thursday's only ethical platform.

At least Bright got out with his integrity intact!

What remained for Endeavour was that he still loved Thursday and family. Perhaps felt indebted to them all for being his surrogate "normal" family. But now, I think his last act was more one of indebtedness than empathy or even love. Thursday had become a broken man and Morse was, once again, going to try to save him, but not like having his back—the way he would have before—but for the family. The only thing Thursday had left to live for.

So, yes, I agree that act is going to haunt Thursday. Morse too, because Morse has started to "play God" and decide who gets punished and who doesn't (not Thursday).  Perhaps he's beginning to face up to the shades of grey within what is right and what is wrong. Don't think he likes it. That is what makes people jaded. His future sure looks to me like it's a direct line to the curmudgeon we first meet in Inspector Morse. 

This ending satisfied my need for a good reason why the Thursday's never get mentioned again.  

On 7/7/2023 at 7:33 PM, la patineuse said:

I think Morse distancing himself from Thursday was in part because Thursday and his family have to go to ground, but I also think it was the lost trust and his utter disappointment in Thursday as well.  At their final farewell, Thursday called Morse by his Christian name, but Morse corrected him and said, "Morse, Sir. Just Morse."  It seemed as if Morse was solidifying the divide between them by not allowing Thursday the familiarity of using his first name.  It was also a significant step in transforming young Morse to older Morse.  Endeavour is gone and now he is just Morse.

It is true that Inspector Morse hated his given name. It would have been a source of embarrassment when he was a child. But we are at the point in the chronology where this formerly idealistic Morse is embarking on becoming the jaded, disillusioned man we meet in the original Morse. All he's got left are his principles. Endeavouring it too lofty to describe what he's about. I thought he was signalling both that he and Thursday are not on a first name basis, and that the name has no meaning in relation to who he is, in any way. Getting the murderer is primary. Not advancement for sure, and he never got that. And never again... to save a friend. (Or at least I can't remember if there were any other instances. I just remember him falling for—or being sympathetic towards—more than one woman who turns out to be the murderer.) 

Bleak, but on the nose.  That's my humble opinion anyway. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Anothermi
clarify

[LGraves65]

I've only watched a few episodes of Morse, so I do know that Strange is a character on it.  How is Joan dealt with?  Jim never mentions his wife?  No flinch from Morse when he does?  

[mishy]

35 minutes ago, LGraves65 said:

I've only watched a few episodes of Morse, so I do know that Strange is a character on it.  How is Joan dealt with?  Jim never mentions his wife?  No flinch from Morse when he does?  

The Thursday's were invented for Endeavour. In Morse, Strange's wife is only referred to as Mrs. Strange.

[Suzn]

17 hours ago, Anothermi said:

It is true that Inspector Morse hated his given name. It would have been a source of embarrassment when he was a child. But we are at the point in the chronology where this formerly idealistic Morse is embarking on becoming the jaded, disillusioned man we meet in the original Morse. All he's got left are his principles. Endeavouring it too lofty to describe what he's about. I thought he was signalling both that he and Thursday are not on a first name basis, and that the name has no meaning in relation to who he is, in any way. Getting the murderer is primary. Not advancement for sure, and he never got that. And never again... to save a friend. (Or at least I can't remember if there were any other instances. I just remember him falling for—or being sympathetic towards—more than one woman who turns out to be the murderer.) 

Bleak, but on the nose.  That's my humble opinion anyway. 

I think we are left with not much else to connect Endeavour to Morse.  The problem I have is that I don't like the character Morse at all and I still have fondness and sympathy for Endeavour.  I can see that there is some logic to him becoming that "jaded" and "disillusioned" but the two do not mesh for me.  I just don't believe they are the same man.

I also have a problem with what I consider the disposal of Thursday.  I don't believe that he would need to literally disappear and I don't believe that it would be that hard to justify the killing in terms of self-defense and/or defense of his son.

I've loved this show but this ending and having to force the acceptance of an Endeavour to Morse transformation has taken away a great deal of my fondness for it.  I want to re-watch the entire series and have not been able to start that yet.

[HappyHanna]

On 8/2/2023 at 9:35 AM, mishy said:

On 8/2/2023 at 8:51 AM, LGraves65 said:

I've only watched a few episodes of Morse, so I do know that Strange is a character on it.  How is Joan dealt with?  Jim never mentions his wife?  No flinch from Morse when he does?  

The Thursday's were invented for Endeavour. In Morse, Strange's wife is only referred to as Mrs. Strange.

I had never before seen any of the Inspector Morse series, and admittedly now have just watched the first one, but the choice to have Strange play such a key role in Endeavor seems peculiar to me.  At least in episode 1 of Inspector Morse there is no hint that at one point they were so close (at least from Strange's pov) that Morse was to be his best man.  They don't seem like previous equals or friends. I'm not sure I want to watch enough of Morse, which has not aged well, to see if this is addressed or whether it was another incongruity between the series. 

[OlderThanDirt]

I'm content with the evolution of Endeavor over the course of the series, thanks to the writing and acting. I don't need to see more of the transition to older cynical Morse because Shaun Evans made the transition believable,  IMHO. 

But I think there is a door open for a exploration of Sam Thursday's story; raised by a WWII vet cop, loss of innocence in deployment to No. Ireland; exile to unknown destination with or maybe without parents. Did he become a cop?  Of course writing of the same standard as Russell Lewis's is essential! 

[Calvada]

Does anyone know if PBS cut bits from these final 3 episodes?  I have the DVDs on request at my public library but I'll cancel that if I know that there is no need to re-watch to see deleted footage.  

[humbleopinion]

Win awarding Morse a sandwich of his own.

A bittersweet gesture, since he'd rather have a lifetime of day of the week sandwiches made for him by Joan.

Strange eliciting a pause from Thursday for not knowing what sandwich he was unwrapping...

We never found out the mystery sandwich.

Strange's dullness will evoke a midlife crisis for Joan just like Win had, history repeating itself.

One last swoon from Morse in this tuxedo and little bow tie.

The Endeavor theme music hauntingly beautiful and iconic.

[M. Darcy]

I'm at the 3rd (and final episode) of season 1 in my rewatch of Morse and honestly, he isn't at grumpy as my memories of "Old Morse" are.  Heh, of course, its just season 1.    

FYI, if you will be in London this fall, Roger's play with Ian McKellen - Frank & Percy -  is moving to the West End from 8 September - 3 December.   And I've got a ticket!!  

[sagittarius sue]

On 8/23/2023 at 10:37 AM, M. Darcy said:

I'm at the 3rd (and final episode) of season 1 in my rewatch of Morse and honestly, he isn't at grumpy as my memories of "Old Morse" are.  Heh, of course, its just season 1.    

FYI, if you will be in London this fall, Roger's play with Ian McKellen - Frank & Percy -  is moving to the West End from 8 September - 3 December.   And I've got a ticket!!  

Lucky you to see Roger in a play!  I'd love to catch him in one.

With Morse it seemed he became grumpier in later seasons, specifically 6-8.  Just this week I caught the sad episode (6-1) with the fiancee of his university years and wondered if this was the beginning of this character development.  It's also nice to see how clearly Lewis has become a very competent detective in the later seasons.

[M. Darcy]

On 8/25/2023 at 8:55 PM, sagittarius sue said:

It's also nice to see how clearly Lewis has become a very competent detective in the later seasons.

I can't remember if its more in the books in the show, but it always seems if Morse had just listened to Lewis at the beginning of case, it would have been solved right away.  Heh, which would have made for a very short book and tv episode. 

[geekgirl921]

I have been watching Morse I never watched it before so now I am seeing all of the Morse references that I missed in Endeavour.

[ML89]

Rewatching Lewis and I hear a familiar voice - Caroline O’Neil who played Win Thursday is in Season 2, Ep 1 - “And the Moonbeams Kiss the Sea.”

[ML89]

Rewatching Morse and having a really hard time squaring Strange and DeBryn with their past and Morse. The young Strange is a really good young version physically but DeBryn is a big hearty guy. I know it’s backing into a past but only two eps in on the rewatch and I’m really beginning to think about that alternate universe idea. 

[Lois Sandborne]

On 2/25/2024 at 6:12 PM, ML89 said:

Rewatching Lewis and I hear a familiar voice - Caroline O’Neil who played Win Thursday is in Season 2, Ep 1 - “And the Moonbeams Kiss the Sea.”

Can't believe I never clocked that was her! And playing a bitter sourpuss just like our Win too 😆

[Milburn Stone]

On 7/5/2022 at 11:23 AM, LennieBriscoe said:

"...most people think morality doesn't  exist in fiction." I think most people know, even in the basic "good guys vs. bad guys" sense, that there is much morality, or at least a moral sense, in well-written fiction.

In an essay by the 19th Century English novelist Anthony Trollope, he posits that fiction is the most moral of literary categories, and that in fact every novel is driven at its core by morality. The novelist wants his/her readers to feel something, and that something is invariably driven, at least implicitly, by "who Is behaving badly, who is not behaving badly, what circumstances are awful, what circumstances are less awful," etc. Even "amoral" novels with amoral protagonists--which Trollope couldn't imagine--are moral, in that they suggest a common morality that the protagonist doesn't live by.

Edited April 10 by Milburn Stone