S04.E09: The Birds & The Bees

[Athena]

Quote

As Brianna struggles to compartmentalize the trauma she's suffered in the wake of the tragedy that befell her in Wilmington, she refocuses on finding her parents.

Reminder: This is the No Book Talk topic. No discussion of the books is allowed including saying "in the books..." Posts may be removed without warning.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Awww, I found it sweet that Lizzie was trying so hard to comfort Brianna and take care of her.

Ha, Brianna and Jamie finally meet - in an alley where he's taking a piss. Just how every girl imagines meeting her long lost father!

On a shallow note, I loved the grey and black knitted shawl thing that Brianna was wearing.

Ian took meeting his cousin very well. I love how he took it all in stride and just said that he has learned not to ask too many questions when it comes to Claire.

I am so glad that Brianna told Claire the whole truth. I was afraid that she was just going to let her believe that the baby was definitely Roger's or that she was going to say that she met some random guy at the tavern and that it was consensual. As painful as it was for her to tell her mother the truth, I think she needed to tell someone what happened. I think it has been good for her to spend time with Claire, Jamie, Ian, and Murtagh while she processes being raped (in addition to dealing with the whole Roger situation) but part of me now wants her to go back to her own time so that she can get some much needed therapy.

I know I have to remember it was a different time, but when Jamie blamed Lizzie for "letting" Brianna leave with Roger while he was manhandling her, I was like BITCH, PLEASE. As if a maid trying to stop a man in public would do anything but get her fired.

I love how fiercely loyal Jamie and Ian are to Brianna. Ian is a sweet boy but he instantly asked Jamie if he wanted him to kill Roger. I found it somewhat hilarious that the only reason Jamie said no was because he didn't want to make Ian a murderer. HA!

I do wonder what Jamie thinks Ian is going to do with Roger. "Get rid of him" and "I don't care what you do with him" but "don't kill him" - okay, so exactly what options does that leave? Put him on a boat? Sell him into indentured servitude? Leave him in an alley and hope he has amnesia from being hit in the head so many times?

[AuntieMame]

I love the knitting on this show too, electricboogaloo. The shawlette wouldn’t be that difficult to reproduce. 

I was glad that Brianna told her mother the truth too, as difficult as it was for her. 

[nara]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Ha, Brianna and Jamie finally meet - in an alley where he's taking a piss. Just how every girl imagines meeting her long lost father!

 

Ian took meeting his cousin very well. I love how he took it all in stride and just said that he has learned not to ask too many questions when it comes to Claire.

I am so glad that Brianna told Claire the whole truth. I was afraid that she was just going to let her believe that the baby was definitely Roger's or that she was going to say that she met some random guy at the tavern and that it was consensual. As painful as it was for her to tell her mother the truth, I think she needed to tell someone what happened. I think it has been good for her to spend time with Claire, Jamie, Ian, and Murtagh while she processes being raped (in addition to dealing with the whole Roger situation) but part of me now wants her to go back to her own time so that she can get some much needed therapy.

I know I have to remember it was a different time, but when Jamie blamed Lizzie for "letting" Brianna leave with Roger while he was manhandling her, I was like BITCH, PLEASE. As if a maid trying to stop a man in public would do anything but get her fired.

 

As much as I enjoyed the meeting of Jamie and Brianna, I was grossed out about the idea of him holding his d**k one minute and caressing her face the next. 🤢

 

I was also afraid that Brianna would not share the truth. I’m glad she did. That scene was very well done. And I’m glad Claire figured out who was the rapist. I am so tempted to go to the book thread to find out if Bonnet is ever served justice for his crimes. I do think that this episode really highlighted unintended consequences and how they continue to happen.    Are Jamie and Claire morally responsible for all the actions of the man they freed from the scaffold? Including the rape and the child who was thrown in the ocean? I think that would be an interesting discussion.

 

I think that Jamie just lashed out at Lizzie because of his own anger at not being able to protect his daughter. He sent Claire and Brianna to the future to protect them and it’s gotta feel like all that was for naught. I’ll give him a pass for that...

But attacking Roger without Brianna’s confirmation was a stupid stupid thing to do. Typical of his compulsive behavior, and the flip side of the way he can think on his feet. I fear that this will end up being a permanent wedge between him and his daughter. Roger deserves a verbal beat down for his sexist condescension, but not a physical one.

I really enjoyed the “get to know you scenes” and the discussion of Frank. They do need to age up Jamie, though, because he doesn’t look old enough to be Bree’s father.

[AuntieMame]

Unintended consequences and our perennial inability to even acknowledge them is a continuing problem for the entire species on an individual and a collective level dog our every step. 

You bring up an interesting idea about whether Jaime and Claire should be held morally responsible for everything that has happened due to Claire’s presence in the past. Harsh standard and only askable because Claire’s second trip to the past is a choice. But by that standard should all of us be held responsible for unintended consequences of simply being on the planet? For example, I’m answering television posts while people in the third world live in train stations, huffing glue and recycling water bottles. I didn’t do this directly. I’d change it if I knew how, but the relative wealth of the West rests on the suffering of others. How responsible are all of us? 

So, I guess for me, yes we have some responsibility but not direct, Bonnett is responsible for throwing that baby into the sea. I think he would have done this even if there were no time travel in a similar situation. Likewise the rape of Brianna. Even if Claire and by extension Bree never travelled, I think Bonnett would be a rapist. 

One of the universals of life is that all of us want to keep our children from suffering and none of us ever do or can. 

Interesting question. What are we morally responsible for as consequences of our actions multiply or things that don’t even seem connected or able to be changed? Hmm. 

Edited December 30, 2018 by AuntieMame

[riverheightsnancy]

I am hoping for a Lizzie and Ian pairing, he is such a cutie. 

[Cdh20]

1 hour ago, nara said:

As much as I enjoyed the meeting of Jamie and Brianna, I was grossed out about the idea of him holding his d**k one minute and caressing her face the next. 🤢

 

I was also afraid that Brianna would not share the truth. I’m glad she did. That scene was very well done. And I’m glad Claire figured out who was the rapist. I am so tempted to go to the book thread to find out if Bonnet is ever served justice for his crimes. I do think that this episode really highlighted unintended consequences and how they continue to happen.    Are Jamie and Claire morally responsible for all the actions of the man they freed from the scaffold? Including the rape and the child who was thrown in the ocean? I think that would be an interesting discussion.

 

I think that Jamie just lashed out at Lizzie because of his own anger at not being able to protect his daughter. He sent Claire and Brianna to the future to protect them and it’s gotta feel like all that was for naught. I’ll give him a pass for that...

But attacking Roger without Brianna’s confirmation was a stupid stupid thing to do. Typical of his compulsive behavior, and the flip side of the way he can think on his feet. I fear that this will end up being a permanent wedge between him and his daughter. Roger deserves a verbal beat down for his sexist condescension, but not a physical one.

I really enjoyed the “get to know you scenes” and the discussion of Frank. They do need to age up Jamie, though, because he doesn’t look old enough to be Bree’s father.

I am often icked out by the thought of how dirty everyone is in these times, but I hand wave that away, or especially love scenes would be gross.

I hope I will get to watch it tomorrow- going to a friend's cabin for a few days. 

I bet Bonnet will be the villain for a few years, even though Jamie will of course want to kill him.

Let's not age up anyone, I like my Jamie pretty & young! 

[Nidratime]

Quote

Let's not age up anyone, I like my Jamie pretty & young! 

Jamie is like our George Hamilton -- or for the younger people here -- Rob Lowe. Or a male Lena Horne. Ageless for a long time ... without the plastic surgery. (Although, I have no idea if any of these people had plastic surgery.)

[BitterApple]

Yeah, I'm wondering how Briana will take it next episode when she finds out Jamie beat the shit out of the man who didn't rape her. 

I'm curious to see where this will go, assuming Briana keeps the baby. Surely a doctor like Claire wouldn't want her daughter giving birth in the 1700s when medical care was rudimentary at best. Yes, plenty of women did it, but plenty died as well. I can't imagine Claire's penicillin stash is infinite, to say nothing of the absence of vaccines available for a newborn. Very interesting. 

Lizzie is a good friend to Briana. I felt bad when Jamie directed his anger towards her for letting Briana go off with what she assumed was a strange man. 

The show needs to stop doing river scenes. I understand this one was necessary so Ian could tell Briana about the robbery, but the CGI is awful. 

Eta: I've noticed everyone on FB is talking about how this episode was such a tearjerker, so emotional etc. Weirdly enough, it didn't have that much of an impact on me. I was happy to see Briana reunite with her parents, but I thought the previous episodes of the Murtaugh reunion and the Frank flashbacks were much bigger kicks in the feels. 

Edited December 30, 2018 by BitterApple

[Hannah Lee]

7 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Yeah, I'm wondering how Briana will take it next episode when she finds out Jamie beat the shit out of the man who didn't rape her. 

 

 

 

Yeah, I can imagine Jamie confessing to Claire what he did. 

Jamie:  "The man who raped Brianna came to Fraser's Ridge, so I beat the crap out of him.  I dinna kill him though, even though I wanted to."

Claire:  "Wait, what?!  Stephen Bonnet came here?"

Jamie:  "Who said anything about Stephen Bonnet?"

I keep thinking that a big part of the issue stems from Brianna's behavior.  Lass, if you're traveling to the new world with a lady's maid, and you're leaving your lodging for the evening, wouldn't it be smart AND kind to let her know that you've run into an old friend and you'll be away for a couple of hours catching up with him?  I know you were surprised to see him, and Roger did sort of drag you out of the place, but it would have taken 30 seconds to leave word with the bar keep.  At least then Lizzie wouldn't have stayed up all night worried sick, and she might have the possibility of figuring out that the man Brianna left with was probably not the man who brutally raped her.

I was irritated with Roger after his behavior in the last episode (and at the gathering in NC previously) and while I may have thought he deserved a good smack down, I didn't think he deserved anywhere near what Jamie dished out to him.

All that being said, it makes be think less of DG and the Outlander PTB that, given ALL the interesting stories that could have been told about Brianna traveling back in time to 1760's North Carolina, they thought that sex/rape/paternity drama was the most interesting story to tell.  Seriously.   There are more interesting stories to be told about women than what goes on in their vagina/wombs y'all.   See the first seasons of Claire's journey for some examples.  Yeah, this show tends to be particularly rapey, but since they've already had the assault/rape of men (eg Jamie, twice), women (Mary, almost Claire, almost Jenny) tweens/teens (Ian and all the boys who didn't survive Geillis) AND children (Fergus), plus probably more examples I've forgotten, and we've already been shown, repeatedly, that S Bonnet is an evil cruel dude, this just seems unnecessary and a bit lazy. 

On another note, the scenes of life at the homestead, and the knitting together of Brianna with the Fraser family was lovely.  I would seriously watch two or three episodes of just that, with no manufactured drama  (hey, maybe a webisode or two?)  And I really liked that she noticed the warmth/bond between her mother and Jamie (for example she said "I know why she had to come back")  even if it provided an uncomfortable contrast with what she remembers of the relationship between Claire and Frank.   And I like that Jamie was so open about his awareness of Frank's role in Bree and Claire's lives, and how much he owes him for caring for them so much.  Though he can be impulsive and a hothead, Jamie is emotionally mature enough to know that his jealously of Frank's relationship with Bree, while understandable, doesn't need to be front and center if he wants to build a relationship with his daughter.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Hannah Lee

[HerkyJerky]

I LOVE Outlander (2nd only to Handmaid's Tale), so it is horrible of me to say that America is BORING?!  I loved the first 3 seasons so much more.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

8 hours ago, Hannah Lee said:

I like that Jamie was so open about his awareness of Frank's role in Bree and Claire's lives, and how much he owes him for caring for them so much.  Though he can be impulsive and a hothead, Jamie is emotionally mature enough to know that his jealously of Frank's relationship with Bree, while understandable, doesn't need to be front and center if he wants to build a relationship with his daughter.

One thing I really liked about this episode was everyone being open and honest about things, from Jamie/Claire/Brianna about Frank to Brianna telling Claire about being raped. Brianna told Claire that Frank knew Claire eventually went back to Jamie. Brianna didn't hesitate to call Frank her father to Jamie's face, but with no intention of hurting Jamie's feelings. Jamie told Brianna how grateful he was to Frank for raising Brianna and loving her. Brianna told Jamie she felt like she was betraying Frank by talking to Jamie. Claire told Jamie to take Brianna hunting so they could get to know each other better. These are all things that they could have kept to themselves, but all of their relationships improved because they told each other the truth, which I really love (especially since tv shows are known for having the characters keep secrets/facts/feelings to themselves for the added drama).

And I agree that although Jamie sometimes has a hard time controlling his temper, he knows that being blatantly jealous of Frank is going to get him absolutely nowhere with Brianna (or Claire), so I liked that he was able to keep that in check and express only gratitude about Frank to Brianna. He knows that Brianna loves Frank and that he can never replace him, so he has to settle for getting to know her while she's still there.

[terrymct]

A staggering amount of drama in this episode and set up for the coming episodes could have been avoided if the characters spoke to each other a little bit more.  It’s the same basis as a goofy comedy.  

I was off base on Lizzie’s seeing Roger and Bree together but things from here out would have been easier if she’d have thought for a second in the tavern.  She knew who was set up there on the first floor and it wasn’t Roger.  That seemed an odd conclusion to which to jump.  

Please don’t let this set up a plot line where Roger gets tortured or abused extensively.  Leave that crap back with Black Jack.  

[BusyOctober]

This season is losing me.  I find Brianna boring as hell.  The character is not interesting and the actress is abysmal.  I wish she’d go back through the stones and never come back.  For the product of two passionate and charismatic parents, Brianna is a dud.  I’d rather hear more from Lizzie or Ian’s dog than suffer through more wooden and flatly delivered dialogue from Brianna.

If she keeps the baby (& I’m assuming she will, because... drah-ma) knowing it cannot be Roger’s, and Roger manages to resurface, I don’t see him being open minded to the scenario.  He is very conservative in his views, so even though the baby is a result of a rape, I don’t know if Roger could raise another man’s child. Especially when he discovers who the baby-daddy is.  But Frank was able to overcome that, so maybe Roger can.  

[SoTheresThat]

11 minutes ago, BusyOctober said:

If she keeps the baby (& I’m assuming she will, because... drah-ma) knowing it cannot be Roger’s, and Roger manages to resurface, I don’t see him being open minded to the scenario.  He is very conservative in his views, so even though the baby is a result of a rape, I don’t know if Roger could raise another man’s child. Especially when he discovers who the baby-daddy is.  But Frank was able to overcome that, so maybe Roger can.  

But the baby could be Roger's.  They had sex right before the rape.

[jcin617]

Claire asked how certain Brianna was that the baby was or was not Roger’s, to which Brianna insinuated he used “the pull out method” (as Claire put it) so it’s less likely to be his.   

[notcreative enough]

To be fair MTV has an intire franchise based on stupid teenagers that think the pull out meathod is a thing. So it's still possible  that the father can be anyone. 

[BitterApple]

33 minutes ago, notcreative enough said:

To be fair MTV has an intire franchise based on stupid teenagers that think the pull out meathod is a thing. So it's still possible  that the father can be anyone. 

Lmfaoooo, I was just about to write that!!!! I'm a closet devotee of Teen Mom and 16&Pregnant and I'd be retired if I had a dollar for every time one of those idiots said "But he pulled out! We were being careful!!!".

Even though there's a chance the baby could be Roger's, I'm leaning toward Bonnet as being the father. If for no other reason than what BusyOctober just mentioned: it creates a parallel to the Claire/Jamie/Frank theme of a man taking on a child he knows isn't his. Given what a jerk Roger can be, I'm not entirely certain he'll be okay with that arrangement. 

As much as Claire gets on my nerves at times, I truly felt for her when she realized what she and Jamie set into motion by saving Bonnet. Of course there's no way she could've predicted the rape, but I wonder if this will make them hesitant to interfere in the future. 

[Cdh20]

Best episode of the season!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

As much as Claire gets on my nerves at times, I truly felt for her when she realized what she and Jamie set into motion by saving Bonnet. Of course there's no way she could've predicted the rape, but I wonder if this will make them hesitant to interfere in the future. 

Unless they refuse to interact with anyone but each other, their actions will have unpredictable consequences (and that goes for everyone, not just them). You can't live your life afraid to say or do anything because it MIGHT affect someone else. I still think that Claire and Jamie should consider how their actions an affect others (you know, like letting George Washington take the blame for something that Jamie did) but that in their day to day lives, they can't constantly second guess what might happen because they do X, Y, Z. Helping Bonnet escape wasn't something that Jamie was eager to do but it was done out of kindness and sympathy.

[hokeypokeyFOIA]

I'm having the weird sense that this might be one of the first shows where the actors playing father and daughter start dating behind the scenes.

From my perspective, the actress playing Brianna has a lot more chemistry with Sam Heughan than Caitriona Balfe does. 

[seahag50]

• Im going to be honest here,  I fell asleep I was so bored...sad isn't it.  Well this can be Rogers baby coitus interruptus doesn't always work...folks...this better get a little more exciting...

[BitterApple]

17 minutes ago, hokeypokeyFOIA said:

I'm having the weird sense that this might be one of the first shows where the actors playing father and daughter start dating behind the scenes.

From my perspective, the actress playing Brianna has a lot more chemistry with Sam Heughan than Caitriona Balfe does. 

It's weird watching them together because Sam doesn't look that much older than Sophie. They really need to start aging Jamie's character. I know the fangirls won't be happy, but at least glue some gray hairs into that monstrosity of a wig. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

30 minutes ago, hokeypokeyFOIA said:

I'm having the weird sense that this might be one of the first shows where the actors playing father and daughter start dating behind the scenes.

From my perspective, the actress playing Brianna has a lot more chemistry with Sam Heughan than Caitriona Balfe does. 

Sam is dating someone.  And chemistry is subjective.

[nara]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Unless they refuse to interact with anyone but each other, their actions will have unpredictable consequences (and that goes for everyone, not just them). You can't live your life afraid to say or do anything because it MIGHT affect someone else. I still think that Claire and Jamie should consider how their actions an affect others (you know, like letting George Washington take the blame for something that Jamie did) but that in their day to day lives, they can't constantly second guess what might happen because they do X, Y, Z. Helping Bonnet escape wasn't something that Jamie was eager to do but it was done out of kindness and sympathy.

I thought there was also an element of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” when it came to Bonnet, which a very dangerous sentiment.

[Cdh20]

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

It's weird watching them together because Sam doesn't look that much older than Sophie. They really need to start aging Jamie's character. I know the fangirls won't be happy, but at least glue some gray hairs into that monstrosity of a wig. 

There is a few greys in the sides! 

Plus Jamie is only what 25 years older than Bri, not 40 like some dads nowadays.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Cdh20

[Cdh20]

On 2018-12-30 at 10:05 AM, BitterApple said:

Yeah, I'm wondering how Briana will take it next episode when she finds out Jamie beat the shit out of the man who didn't rape her. 

I'm curious to see where this will go, assuming Briana keeps the baby. Surely a doctor like Claire wouldn't want her daughter giving birth in the 1700s when medical care was rudimentary at best. Yes, plenty of women did it, but plenty died as well. I can't imagine Claire's penicillin stash is infinite, to say nothing of the absence of vaccines available for a newborn. Very interesting. 

Lizzie is a good friend to Briana. I felt bad when Jamie directed his anger towards her for letting Briana go off with what she assumed was a strange man. 

The show needs to stop doing river scenes. I understand this one was necessary so Ian could tell Briana about the robbery, but the CGI is awful. 

Eta: I've noticed everyone on FB is talking about how this episode was such a tearjerker, so emotional etc. Weirdly enough, it didn't have that much of an impact on me. I was happy to see Briana reunite with her parents, but I thought the previous episodes of the Murtaugh reunion and the Frank flashbacks were much bigger kicks in the feels. 

I had all the feels ! Sam did an amazing job of “daddy” Jamie. This was his episode. 

I was worried as soon as I saw that Jamie was going to confront Roger- that beating was excessive- but not surprising from overprotective Jamie with rape as a trigger.

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

It's weird watching them together because Sam doesn't look that much older than Sophie. They really need to start aging Jamie's character. I know the fangirls won't be happy, but at least glue some gray hairs into that monstrosity of a wig. 

They will indeed have to add aging as the years go by which is probably why they haven’t done much yet.

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

It's weird watching them together because Sam doesn't look that much older than Sophie. They really need to start aging Jamie's character. I know the fangirls won't be happy, but at least glue some gray hairs into that monstrosity of a wig. 

That monstrosity (PERFECT DESCRIPTION!) also covers up the "furrowing" the make-up people added to age Jamie up. You can see some when Sam is in the sun, but not much. Maybe he's just the 17th Century version of Ralph Macchio/Dick Clark?

[toolazy]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Sam is dating someone.  And chemistry is subjective.

Not that it matters, but I think they broke up.  And I sensed no sexual chemistry between Sam Heughan and Sophie Skelton.  In person, in interviews and things, Sam & Caitriona Balfe have crazy chemistry.  So do Sophie & Richard Rankin, which makes it weird that they don't have great show chemistry.  

[sas616]

4 hours ago, toolazy said:

Not that it matters, but I think they broke up.  And I sensed no sexual chemistry between Sam Heughan and Sophie Skelton.  In person, in interviews and things, Sam & Caitriona Balfe have crazy chemistry.  So do Sophie & Richard Rankin, which makes it weird that they don't have great show chemistry.  

I went to the Outlander convention in NJ this summer.  Sophie and Richard were brought it when Sam and Cait cancelled, so I got to see them together during their Q&A sessions.   They DO have chemistry; in fact they remind me a lot of how Sam and Cait were during in the beginning when they were doing PR for the show.  Very, very flirty.   Richard is adorable and such a hoot.

[ganesh]

On 12/30/2018 at 4:29 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Ha, Brianna and Jamie finally meet - in an alley where he's taking a piss. Just how every girl imagines meeting her long lost father!

I thought this was an absolutely brilliant narrative choice. I actually liked this episode though not too much happened. 

 

On 12/30/2018 at 8:36 AM, AuntieMame said:

You bring up an interesting idea about whether Jaime and Claire should be held morally responsible for everything that has happened due to Claire’s presence in the past.

Not having experience in traveling through time, within that context, and I think the show is severely missing out on its full potential for not considering it, I do think Claire bears responsibility for her actions. She nearly immediately told Jamie about what was coming, and they spent the first 2 seasons trying to change it. I don't actually blame her per se, and it's not on Jamie since it's his actual life. But to not be cognizant of this I think is selfish, but consistent with Claire's character. Yeah Bonnet would still be who he is, but maybe after the events at Riverrun, the slaves were treated even worse. Maybe the aunt lost some money on her produce because the other slaveowners wanted to stick it to her. Jamie throwing Washington under the bus is a huge deal because he was told by Claire who Washington was.

 

On 12/30/2018 at 5:20 PM, Hannah Lee said:

All that being said, it makes be think less of DG and the Outlander PTB that, given ALL the interesting stories that could have been told about Brianna traveling back in time to 1760's North Carolina, they thought that sex/rape/paternity drama was the most interesting story to tell.  Seriously.  

Really though. I was like, 'oh come on'. Not that they're weren't raping pirates, but it was just so derivative. I have zero interest in the books, but I just can't see how they're so popular. 

[Cdh20]

My first watch involved a large group of people & I thought you might be amused by some of the comments: 

Bff was sure Jamie would kill Bonnet by episode end. ( As soon as we saw Lizzie tell Ian about Roger & go get Jamie we were all gasping that hopefully he wouldn’t kill Roger mistakenly). 

Bff, my hubby & I agreed it was the best episode of the season.

Bff’s hubby ( who watches sometimes) was a pain in the ass with Back to the Future jokes throughout!

GF#2  ( nonwatcher) knows we love Jamie but doesn’t understand why because of his hair - she went on & on about it - she should join your burn the wig club! She was disappointed he wasn’t shirtless! She hates violence so as soon as we saw Jamie charging up to Roger, we told her to leave the room- thank goodness for that! 

GF#2’s hubby was confused that we should be teary  eyed during 1/2 the episode! ( Some tears escaped during Jamie & Bree’s bee hunt).

 

I got to rewatch tonight! I smiled, & laughed & cried. Sam was brilliant, as were Sophie & Cait. Well done. 

One complaint: Jamie & Claire could have been more of their lovey dovey selves in front of Bree, because she said she knew why her mom came back, but I wanted her to see how affectionate they are but this episode fell short there.

Edited January 2, 2019 by Cdh20

[40Love]

On 12/30/2018 at 9:52 AM, nara said:

As much as I enjoyed the meeting of Jamie and Brianna, I was grossed out about the idea of him holding his d**k one minute and caressing her face the next. 🤢

Okay, this!!! I was saying "Please don't touch her face... please don't touch her face. Oh no, he's touching her face. Nooo, he's touching her face again. For goodness sake, stop touching her face Jaime. We all know where your hands have been. Ewww!" 

[ganesh]

Did he use his other hand? 

[Camera One]

I'm not sure why Jaime needed to be relieving himself for his first meeting with Brianna.  He could have been working on his horse or something.

This was a well-done episode, well, right up to the comedy-of-errors-and-withholding-of-information-leading-to-the-biggest-misunderstanding-ever!  Well, at least they could break out the gore factor again with Jaime punching Roger's face since this episode was lacking in rape, surgery or murder.

The meeting between Jaime and Brianna was well done, as well as the reunion with Claire.  There were some nice conversations on Jaime and Brianna's bee-hunting trip, and I'm so glad Brianna told Claire, and Claire found the ring.  Ian, Murtaugh, Claire and Jaime and Brianna together as a family is rather nice.

I've been enjoying seeing different aspects of pioneer life, but I think I'll be ready for the cabin to burn down by the end of the season so we can "travel" somewhere else, LOL.

[gingerella]

Och, oy...The last two episodes have really bugged me, not liking them AT all. When they were playing the opening scenes with the theme music (I skip over that a lot) and I saw the scene of the dead slave, the Scottish dancers from the 1970's Scottish Jamboree in NC, it seemed like those episodes were from another season entirely! It seems like such a long time ago that we were in those places, and where we are now is such shit in a lot of way.

Also, when I saw the opening credits and the the title, The Birds and the Bees, I thought, "Oh, it's about Brianna being pregnant, and Lizzy not understanding what happened. And BINGO, that's exactly what we got. I don't like when it's that obvious, it makes for lazy writing and an unsatisfying watch. And to be honest, the episode where Jamie finally meets his and Claire's daughter should have moved me more than it did. That entire scene was...meh, for me. Maybe it was the fact that he'd just taken a pass and without washing his hands he went from holding his johnson to holding Brianna's face and, well, just No! I thought I'd get caught up in that moment and I didnt.

Okay, enough bitching, let's get into it, shall we?

Things I liked (sadly this list is getting smaller and smaller by the episode)

* Ian, he always makes me smile! His persona is just so infectious, in a good way, and the actor playing him is just perfection. And I love me some Rollo too. Clearly we're headed for an Ian/Lizzy pairing, but could they BE anymore obvious FFS?!?

* Murtagh! I don't care if he's just sitting there scowling or smirking at a tree, I'll watch an entire hour of Murtagh, and if I can get Murtagh and Ian, BINGO!

* Really enjoyed all the pioneer scenes of homesteading life. As I said in an earlier S04 epi, I could watch an entire season of that and wouldn't get bored.

* Brianna smiling in her sleep, just like Jamie has all his life.

* This convo between Brianna and Jamie:

Jamie: "You can call me 'Da'."

Brianna: "Is that Gaelic?"

Jamie: "No. It's only simple."

Such a lovely exchange.

* Roger asking for gemstones instead of money. I couldn't figure out if he wanted the gemstones so he (and perhaps Brianna) could go back through the Stones to their own time OR if he was going to make a ring for Brianna. I mean, she would NOT want a ring made with a gemstone from her rapist, but then again, Roger doesn't know that so...I guess I'll give him a pass.

Things that made me sad:

* Everything about Brianna's rape. Seeing how violent Brianna's rape was. She was completely naked with Roger, so I assume the blood on her petticoat was from being raped. I don't need to see that to know it was bad. This is the part of this show that I just do not fucking understand. WHY do we need constant rapes of both men and women? WHY? It's not needed. I think the show runners think we need all the violence but overall, over the entire series, it could have been dialed down A LOT and we'd still get the gist. It's what I hated about GoT and I hate this about Outlander too. WTF is wrong with DG and the show runners???

* Jamie being heartbroken thinking that Brianna will go back to her own time and leave him again. This is the one child that was born from a loving relationship and he has the opportunity to be a father to her now, and I think she will eventually go back to her own time. I don't know when, but if she was alive to come back to them now, she probably doesn't stay in his time for her entire life, otherwise would she never have been born? It's so confusing! Anyway, Jamie was so broken up about that realization even though it's not even been mentioned. I felt badly for him.

* Claire's reaction when she realized her daughter was raped, and who did it. Oy. And Claire's reaction when Brianna told her she was raped. Catriona Balfe really nailed that scene.

Things that make me go WTF?

* Brianna finding Jamie and Claire pretty much immediately. Come on Show, give us some run around, the whole Brianna and Roger find each other right away, and then the next day Brianna finds Jamie and Claire, it's just bullshit story telling, lazy and stupid.

* Brianna finding J&C and acting like she wasn't just brutally raped the night before. So bizarre.

* My father used to take me camping, and he taught me to shoot. I call Bullshit on that one! Frank was like the guy who would never camp out - that's Jamie - and shoot a gun? Yeah right! Come on Show, make some sense! That was just ridiculous.

* When they first arrive at Fraser's Ridge with Brianna and they show her that grand, sweeping panoramic view, the entire area is tinged with white frost. And yet when they go bee hunting there is spring green grass and flowers and it looks like Spring. Maybe they were coming out of Winter when they arrived and Spring had sprung? They did say they had what, 9 months before Jan 20th and the possible fire date?

* The relationship between Brianna & Jamie just blossomed way too quickly if you ask me. It didn't feel real, it was too rushed.

Things that just pissed me off:

* Who's the baby daddy - fuck you Show. It's a cheap move.

* Roger is such a poor sod, and Jamie beat him to a pulp. What is Ian supposed to do with him if not finish him off? Just leave him in a hole somewhere?!? Way to be a great uncle Jamie.

Edited September 10, 2021 by gingerella

[SassAndSnacks]

9 hours ago, gingerella said:

*Ian, he always makes me smile! His persona is just so infectious, in a good way, and the actor playing him is just perfection. And I love me some Rollo too. Clearly we're headed for an Ian/Lizzy pairing, but could they BE anymore obvious FFS?!?

* Murtagh! I don't care if he's just sitting there scowling or smirking at a tree, I'll watch an entire hour of Murtagh, and if I can get Murtagh and Ian, BINGO!

* Really enjoyed all the pioneer scenes of homesteading life. As I said in an earlier S04 epi, I could watch an entire season of that and wouldn't get bored.

I sincerely feel that there should be an Ian(s) (both Young and otherwise) and Murtaugh spinoff.  I know Sam and Graham did the whole Men in Kilts thing, but it's these 3 that I really love. 

And I agree, I absolutely LOVE the homesteading bits.  I want so much more of that.  I would watch hours of Ian and Murtaugh distilling liquor.  

9 hours ago, gingerella said:

Everything about Brianna's rape.

This was completely brutal.  I have always appreciated how this show doesn't shy away from things - miscarriage, ptsd, etc.  Each rape is different, and I appreciate that, too.  But, there's something extra horrific about this one, and it makes me so sad.  I don't often care for this actress and her delivery, but I thought she nailed this.  

9 hours ago, gingerella said:

And to be honest, the episode where Jamie finally meets his and Claire's daughter should have moved me more than it did. That entire scene was...meh, for me.

Me too.  I was so disappointed upon my first watch and have felt even less moved with each subsequent viewing.  There's something missing.  I don't even care about the pissing (I like to think that Claire developed some early hand-sanitizer and Jamie quickly used it before he turned around and then lovingly touched his daughter's face...LET ME BELIEVE IT!).  Her putting her hand on him as he tried to walk away from her really bothers me.  It's like the script says "Brianna puts her hand on Jamie's shoulder to stop him" and so that's what they did.  It feels forced and very intentioned.  I think the ages of the actors makes it hard too.  They look too close in age, even though Jamie should be 26 years older than Bri.  

 

[Cdh20]

Keep in mind that time is condensed so much in tv time! And this story is full of unbelievable coincidences, I chalk this up as the fantasy element all the time! 

@gingerella I loathe the “who is the baby daddy “ storyline & it’s subsequent plot, like no other in the series. But I agree with @SassAndSnacks Sophie nailed the post rape scenes. I also think that being Jamie & Claire’s daughter she is able to draw on some inner strength here & not let them see she has been hurt. She has just arrived & met her da & she does not want him to know about Bonnet because he will blame himself (for letting Stephen go in the first place, & allowing all the following events). However her lack of communication with everyone, especially Lizzie, puts the whole chain of events into motion. Poor Roger! 

 

[Anothermi]

I. Am. Devastated!

Normally I make predictions or suggest directions the show might go knowing perfectly well that I will be wrong. WHY, Show, did you make this one right—and even worse than I imagined it?  Last episode I wrote:

Quote

I have to agree with @GINGERELLA that there's bound to be a Who's The Daddy storyline—Plus it couldn't be more obvious that Roger will be set up to be accused of the rape. Gah! But will Jamie try to kill Roger (because he doesn't know him like Claire does) and will Claire have to save Roger from Jamie? It's possible isn't it?

So there is no Who's The Daddy complication, just everybody not talking—and jumping to individual conclusions anyway—and poor Roger paying the penalty. ROGER! Without whom Jamie would never have been reunited with his one true love!!! (🤬🤬🤬)

No more talk about the ending... 

The rest of the show was back to sweet moments and character building. Although I feel a bit grudging about them now, I loved it until the ending.

Sweet moments:

• The first one that really got me was Lizzie trying to help Brianna and laying her hand by Brianna's head says “Ye have my hand here... and my ear if ye need it.”  That completely endeared her to me. Too bad Brianna didn't accept the offer. 😢
• Next was Lizzie again; so full of her good news about the stir the wife of a Scotsman had made acting as a surgeon and saving a man's life at the theatre. And finding out the Scotsman was one Mr. Fraser who was still in town. She was so excited she could hardly get it out. 
• Then the first meeting of Brianna and Jamie. Jamie rebuffing her advances—because he's used to having to do that. (giggle)
• And that Brianna found him taking a piss! (I engaged my internal mental hand waving mechanism for everything that happened directly after that 🙄) Historical realism—or is that hysterical realism? 
• But then Jamie getting all teary-eyed when he realized it was her. (sniffle. I'm a sucker for this kind of thing.)
• Jamie's reaction to seeing their obituary: "Smudged date. Unforgivable mistake by the printer."
• Young Ian's reaction to meeting his new cousin: "When it comes to ye, Auntie Claire, I've learned it's better not to ask too many questions."
• Brianna telling Jamie about Daniel Boone and Claire explaining that “he's used to it”.
• Murtagh and Jamie's greeting where we learn that he “eliminated” the spy in their midst... And then met his... god-Granddaughter? At least he knew she existed and didn't need a “story”. He was sooooooo happy. LOVE Murtagh!
• Brianna being told she'd learn about all her cousins at one point (wonder if there'll be a test?). Seemed very authentic to me. Like adopted kids learning about their other family.
• And then the joking after Brianna delivers the message that Jenny would like more letters from Ian.
• Murtagh telling Jamie that Brianna reminds him of his mother and that he deserved the good family feelings after all he'd been through. And Jamie sharing that he worried she might always feel like a stranger. Then, later, Murtagh telling the story of Jamie's first kiss—by one of Dougal's daughters—and the calm and effective way Dougal warned him off (call back to S01). And later still, Murtagh being the one to explain the meaning of Bree—the Gaelic word —to her.
• Claire & Brianna preparing herbs together and Claire letting Brianna know that she, too, was overwhelmed by being 200 years in the past. This is good character building to me. Claire carefully raising a subject tangentially but gave Brianna a way to ask any questions she might have. Not to mention Claire carefully taking in every aspect of Brianna's body language. At this point, it appears, I don't have to worry if Claire has learned how to handle not being able to phyically protect her child from life. It looks like she has learned that.
• Roger asking for gems as wages instead of coin. Thinking of Brianna without a wedding ring? Or travelling back to their own time together?
• All the Brianna, Jamie, Frank stuff. This seems to me to be the crux of both her and Jamie's connection dilemma. Frank raised her—loved her as a child. Jamie had that with Willie for a while, but with Brianna he doesn't know what he has to give her as a father. Frank did a good job raising her. Seems it was one that partially prepared her for a life in the past. 😮
• This exchange: BRIANNA: So does everyone always call you "Young" Ian? YOUNG IAN: When I was a bairn, it was "Wee" Ian. Followed by the corresponding exchange about her nickname – Bree.
• Jamie relating so personally to how Brianna must feel at the loss of “this Roger”. (Although now I feel kind of set-up-for-a-fall by this.)
• Jamie and Bree going bee hunting. Reminded me of Jamie taking Willie deer hunting when John Grey was sick. He didn't want to repeat that—especially because of Bree associating hunting with Frank—so hunting bees was something different he could teach her. And there was plenty of time for them to just bond. I also loved Jamie using his Gaelic words of endearment for his own child and her interest in understanding them.  a leannan – my darling, and. M' annsachd -  my blessing. (or that's what closed captioning tells me) I've always enjoyed Jamie-talking-to-bairns and he's getting his fill before it's too late. 
• Creating a new family memory back at home—eating the honey right from the comb together. 
• And, of course, I liked the way talking about moving the bees to a new and strange environment was also a metaphor for Brianna being out of her “proper place” as well. Not to mention being an opening for her to talk about her inner conflict between loving her father Frank, but appreciating her biological father as well. And for Jamie to share his positive feelings about Frank so she wouldn't have to feel she had to choose.
• Then later Claire having to be the voice of reason to prepare Jamie—who was already “fash”-ing about Brianna leaving again—for that inevitable event (as she sees it). And he shares that he's seen her smile in her sleep—just like Jenny and Claire told him he did. So many call backs— as I'd expect there to be.

That was a LOT of stuff that I really enjoyed. Too bad “good” TV stories have to mess all that up. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Other moments-of-note

• Young Ian telling Brianna about the horrible encounter with Stephen Bonnet. He was clearly the best person to hear it from, but I was unprepared for her reaction—which we learned of later—that she felt she couldn't add her own trauma to their pain from that event. 🤨   Especially since she'd seen Claire with a silver wedding ring on her finger and must have concluded that she'd miss-remembered it and thought that everything she'd endured to get it was completely futile—only to find the truth was even worse. Topped off by Young Ian trying to console her with: I'm sure 'tis only in our nightmares he can trouble us now, eh?  So tragic.
• Brianna letting Claire know that Frank knew she would return to Jamie because that is where she first saw the article about their death in the house fire. 
• This exchange between Claire and Jamie in reaction to Brianna's news about the fire:  CLAIRE: We could make sure we're never in the cabin the Sunday before January 21st. JAMIE: Every year for a decade?  CLAIRE:We'll make a holiday out of it.  JAMIE: I dinna believe it'll be as simple as that. We havena had much luck changing history in the past, Claire.  I'm glad to hear they learned something from their attempt to subvert the Culloden disaster. They still appear to be trying to process the news and I liked that. Realistic.
• Claire and Brianna finally speaking about what happened to Bree. This was not a “sweet” moment for me because Brianna was waiting for her mother to read her mind and that—while not uncommon—is such an unreliable way to seek help. We never saw Claire “reading Brianna's mind” in the gallop through their lives together back in S03. I felt it was a little too much tell and not enough show for me.

I just can't be going over the end part. I absolutely HATE watching bad things happen when people don't tell each other what they are thinking and feeling. Even though it is common enough in real life—in THIS story it's an ill wind and ALWAYS bodes no good. 

I'll just sum up with my pessimistic thought that Young Ian—because he's not supposed to kill (Roger)—will do the next best thing and leave him on Indian Land as though he'd trespassed—for them to kill him. That's as f**ked up a solution to Young Ian's dilemma as I can come up with. (May IT be my usual miss.)
 

 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Anothermi

[Sheikh Yerbouti]

On 9/10/2021 at 6:25 PM, Anothermi said:

• Next was Lizzie again; so full of her good news about the stir the wife of a Scotsman had made acting as a surgeon and saving a man's life at the theatre. And finding out the Scotsman was one Mr. Fraser who was still in town. She was so excited she could hardly get it out. 
• Then the first meeting of Brianna and Jamie. Jamie rebuffing her advances—because he's used to having to do that. (giggle)
• And that Brianna found him taking a piss! (I engaged my internal mental hand waving mechanism for everything that happened directly after that 🙄) Historical realism—or is that hysterical realism? 
• But then Jamie getting all teary-eyed when he realized it was her. (sniffle. I'm a sucker for this kind of thing.)
• Jamie's reaction to seeing their obituary: "Smudged date. Unforgivable mistake by the printer."
• Young Ian's reaction to meeting his new cousin: "When it comes to ye, Auntie Claire, I've learned it's better not to ask too many questions."

• Jamie and Bree going bee hunting. Reminded me of Jamie taking Willie deer hunting when John Grey was sick. He didn't want to repeat that—especially because of Bree associating hunting with Frank—so hunting bees was something different he could teach her. And there was plenty of time for them to just bond. I also loved Jamie using his Gaelic words of endearment for his own child and her interest in understanding them.  a leannan – my darling, and. M' annsachd -  my blessing. (or that's what closed captioning tells me) I've always enjoyed Jamie-talking-to-bairns and he's getting his fill before it's too late. 
• Creating a new family memory back at home—eating the honey right from the comb together. 
• And, of course, I liked the way talking about moving the bees to a new and strange environment was also a metaphor for Brianna being out of her “proper place” as well. Not to mention being an opening for her to talk about her inner conflict between loving her father Frank, but appreciating her biological father as well. And for Jamie to share his positive feelings about Frank so she wouldn't have to feel she had to choose.

• Brianna letting Claire know that Frank knew she would return to Jamie because that is where she first saw the article about their death in the house fire. 

• Claire and Brianna finally speaking about what happened to Bree. This was not a “sweet” moment for me because Brianna was waiting for her mother to read her mind and that—while not uncommon—is such an unreliable way to seek help. We never saw Claire “reading Brianna's mind” in the gallop through their lives together back in S03. I felt it was a little too much tell and not enough show for me.

These are the moments that stood out to me too. I love Lizzy presenting the news at the port and Brianna's meeting of Jamie and reunion with Claire. I laughed through the urination and subsequent face-touching, and I'm not sure why the show runners wanted to make a farce out of a scene that was supposed to be deeply emotional. But it worked for me. I'm glad they didn't drag it out and have people spend half the season trying to find each other. 

Brianna and Jamie's heart-to-heart with the bees was the first time I could see Brianna actually being the offspring of Jamie and Claire. The 1960s straight hair made Brianna look as wooden as her line delivery, and I couldn't see how such a dull-looking person could possibly be their child. Putting Brianna in 1760s fashion and more natural-looking hair did her so many favors, and she now looks like the gorgeous daughter who resembles both of her parents. Now just need to address that emotionless script-reading. 

As for Brianna and Claire, I feel like their sudden closeness is unearned. I think we're supposed to understand that the two became much closer while Claire prepared to return to Jamie, and that Claire desperately missed her daughter after returning to the past, but that gallop through their lives together in S03 mostly showed a distant, barely-there mother-daughter relationship. 

The whole rape and pregnancy storyline is something I can do entirely without. I find birthing bairns to be tedious plots in any tv show, and this one promises to be doubly so.

For people clamoring to age up Jamie...he's supposed to be mid-40s, not 70. He looks exactly like a healthy, fit 40-something.

[mythoughtis]

Well at least it was Jamie  after Roger and not Murtogh.   Seeing one severed head laid at the feet of a young rape survivor is enough.  
 

Interesting that Dougal had 4 daughters. I had thought the only children he had were Hamish, whom he couldn’t claim, and his child with Geillis, whom he didn’t  claim. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by mythoughtis

[gingerella]

19 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

Well at least it was Jamie  after Roger and not Murtogh.   Seeing one severed head laid at the feet of a young rape survivor is enough.  
 

Interesting that Dougal had 4 daughters. I had thought the only children he had were Hamish, whom he couldn’t claim, and his child with Geillis, whom he didn’t  claim. 

And it is a shame that the Show never showed us anything of Dougal's wife, nor his daughters. That is something I'd have liked to see.

[mythoughtis]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

And it is a shame that the Show never showed us anything of Dougal's wife, nor his daughters. That is something I'd have liked to see.

Me too.