S04.E09: The Birds & The Bees

[vesperholly]

Sigh. Just like rape is a lazy, semi-misogynistic dramatic writer's tool, so too is pregnancy. Of course Brianna gets pregnant the first time she has sex.

[aemom]

I said after last week's episode that I felt that the problem with Sophie was that she was focusing so hard on the American accent, that it was affecting her overall performance. 

I really believe that now because I thought she did a great job in the scene with Lizzie in their room. She rarely spoke and had to act with her body and face and she did a great job of acting out a woman traumatized by a violent rape.

[Pingaponga]

I was under the impression that, in the book, the article that Roger/Brianna found about the fire in the cabin actually gave the year of the fire.  Am I mis-remembering, or is the smudged year something that's been introduced in the show? And if so...why?

[nodorothyparker]

Yep, the book mention of the fire dates it at Jan. 21, 1776.  The smudged date is a show invention that doesn't really make much sense outside of upping the urgency that sends Brianna into the wayback with Roger chasing after her.  In the book they each see the clipping separately in 1970, with a corresponding parallel wayback time of 1767 or 68.  So they actually have years to decide to do something about it, which if I recall correctly does figure at least a little into Roger wrestling with whether he should tell Brianna about it or just sit on the information for the time being.  But the show needs Brianna to go tearing off into the past Right Now to move the action along.

[Ziggy]

I think they always have to be looking for ways to simplify the story a bit.  There's just too much going on, and adding the smudge simplified things.  Just like they simplified the confusion about Roger and the rape (no name change and Bree thinking Roger sailed back to Scotland) and his last name (MacKenzie or Wakefield).  It made it easier to understand why Jamie would just attack Roger the way he did.

[nodorothyparker]

I suppose you could call smudging dates to light a fire under Bree and Roger's story where there really isn't one simplifying it.  As long as you don't think too hard about the reality that now our leads as they said are going to spend maybe the next decade camping out every January on the off chance that this is the year the house goes up, that is.  Narratively I guess it also adds a bit of mystery to a random sort of subplot that otherwise is just one of those things that just makes you go "huh, really?" when you see how it actually plays out on the page.

[Tanner]

[TaurusRose]

On 12/30/2018 at 9:37 PM, Tanner said:

Mr Tanner kept telling "wash your hands! Don't touch her face!" I was dying since he is a casual viewer . He was super proud that he guessed that Brianna was pregnant,though.

Wow.  Yep, there'd be a bucket of fresh, clean water next to the mud holes in colonial times because everyone was so concerned with germs.  Pretty sure that was the main thought in Brianna's mind upon meeting her biological father after time traveling 200 years to the past. I'm sorry; major eye roll here.  I thought the episode was fantastic.

Edited January 1, 2019 by taurusrose

[CountryGirl]

I absolutely loved the latest episode, even with the very ugly aftermath of Bree's rape. 

Sophie has really come into her own and now, I can't imagine someone else in the role. She was so heartbreaking in her scenes of returning to her room at the tavern, all remnants of her innocence totally lost and shattered and yet still determined to reunite with her family and alert them to their fate. And can I say how absolutely stunning she looks in the period clothing.

The reunion/family scenes were everything, including honorary Grandpa Murtagh and his "What took ye so long, lass?"

Just look at this family:

I also love how Bree still calls Claire "Mama" and now, sniff, Jamie "Da."

I'll save my Jamie/Bree thoughts for a bit later...because...duh...

Mother and daughter...no words are needed between them. Their faces speak volumes.

Mad with joy indeed.

But later, Claire realizing Bree hasn't revealed all.

Bree shooting the 18th century rifle handily made me smile. 

Also, I love how she mimics Claire here.

I saw Jamie as being very emotional when meeting Bree, the daughter, he never, ever expected to meet, especially when you consider it wasn't common for men of that era to show their more tender emotions and certainly not tears. Everything was written all over his face then, in the first moments of seeing this precious daughter, his blessing.

And wow, did his emotions and twenty years worth of pent up feelings flood to the surface when he had the opportunity to get vengeance for Bree on the man he mistakenly thought raped her.

Poor Roger...but again, damn...Jamie was his daughter's champion in this moment.

Young Ian continues to be a national (or would that be international?) treasure. I just love him so much. 

Back to Bree...I see now why Sophie was cast. So much chemistry with Sam (and Cait) but these little moments that show, despite the two decades of not knowing each other, she is her father's daughter.

The tiniest of nods and smiles they do:

 

Him watching her smile in his sleep. Just like him.

She truly is her father's daughter. And yes, I mean Jamie here. While I appreciate Frank raising of her and recognize he was her father in every way that counted, knowing that he knew Jamie was alive after Culloden and never told Claire makes me less charitable.

This more than lived up to my expectations and I canna wait to rewatch, you ken?

[tennisgurl]

I know that a lot of people dont really care for Sophie's acting (I think she does fine personally, but I get it) but I thought she was excellent in this episode, especially when she got back to her room after being raped. That was so awful and painful to watch, you really could feel her horrible pain. She had good reactions in general throughout, meeting all of her family, and having all of these new experiences. It is pretty sad that, when Bree told Claire about being raped, I could almost imagine her being like "Well Bree, at least you have several people that can relate to being raped and/or sexually assaulted right around here. Our family is like a magnet for psychos for some fucking reason". Its so deeply depressing, how can so much go so wrong for this one family and the people they know?! But for real, that was a beautifully acted moment, and Catarina and Sophie played it so very well. You could just feel Claire's horror and heartbreak. 

Anyway, I did enjoy this episode a lot, I loved how everything met up, and I thought the acting was all excellent. I mean, Jaime meeting his daughter after pissing behind a bar is kinda a weird choice, but I thought Sams reaction was very heartfelt, and him tearing up and trying to handle it while being somewhat calm, was really well done by him. Really, I loved all of Bree meeting her family, especially Murtagh getting to meet her. I just loved all of the stuff with them just hanging out in the woods, there were so many cute moments, like Claire gleefully telling Bree about meeting George Washington (finally, someone gets it!), Young Ian being totally oblivious to Lizzie's obvious crush on him, the cute stuff between Jamie and Bree in the woods, where he says he appreciates Frank being a good dad to her, and asking her to call him Da, then him being all excited that she called him that later, it was so sweet. And then, of course, shit must go down. 

I actually do like the changes in the Roger and Jamie misunderstanding, it felt like it made more sense, but I hope they streamline things and get things moving faster in the show. I HATE conflicts that could be easily resolved if people just talked to each other and explained things, but instead they just leave everything a mess because DRAMA. Poor Roger! He didnt even get a sing a few bars before the ass kicking started! 

Edited January 2, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Cdh20]

CountryGirl I love your posts with the gifs!! Love, love them!

[iMonrey]

Quote

Plus, he urinates and then does not have the ability to wash his hands and touches her face. It speaks volumes about the times back then. 

I can't believe I'm going to address this subject, but it keeps coming up so . . . 

Assuming Jamie hasn't dribbled on himself and washes regularly, there is nothing inherently "dirtier" about his penis than, say, his elbow. And given the standards of cleanliness of the day he's probably touched much dirtier and germ-ier things than his manhood. I know there's a tendency to think of genitals as "dirty" but the fact is that the bottom of his feet or his arm pits are probably worse for wear than that particular part of his body. It's not like he was going number 2.

I did like the scene where they meet and the scene where Claire sees her and drops her basket, but neither asked the obvious question: "How?" I don't necessarily think it's a given to presume she came thru the stones at Craigh na Dun. We know there are other portals, there was one in Jamaica for instance. Using the same stones and making her way all the way across the ocean is quite the feat. Even Claire and Jamie didn't do it on purpose. The very first words out of my mouth would have been "How are you here?"

[pootlus]

31 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I don't necessarily think it's a given to presume she came thru the stones at Craigh na Dun. We know there are other portals, there was one in Jamaica for instance. Using the same stones and making her way all the way across the ocean is quite the feat. Even Claire and Jamie didn't do it on purpose. The very first words out of my mouth would have been "How are you here?"

But Claire and Jamie only discovered the Jamaica portal relatively recently, and Brianna and Roger only know about the one at Craigh na Dun.  I assume there was a 'Did you come through the stones at Craigh na Dun?' question offscreen, and I suppose when Bree said that Roger was returning to Scotland, they didn't think to have Claire mention other portals for time/plot reasons.  They'll find the third - the one that Bree and Roger go back through - later on anyway.

After dreading it for, well, a couple of years, the 'misunderstanding' was actually handled a lot better than in the books.  Yes it was a bit convenient for Lizzie and Ian to happen upon Roger without being seen themselves but still.  Whether because it was a conscious decision or done for time reasons, I'm grateful.  Poor Roger, he was really banged up when they threw him on the horse.  Great makeup.  Hopefully there's a few more "for fuck's sake, really?" Gabaldon plotlines that get changed for 'time'.

Despite her not looking like the character described in the books, I'm really liking the actress playing Lizzie.  She has been a really good friend to Bree even if she unintentionally got her wires crossed.

Loved all the domestic scenes with Jamie, Claire, Bree and Murtagh.  Hoping there'll be more of this next year and less of the seemingly six-month long Highland festival.  I particularly liked the scenes between Claire and Bree.  After their arguments in the 20th century, it was nice to see the depth of love between mother and daughter, and Claire's horror when she finds out that Bree has been raped, and by whom.

[Ziggy]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I can't believe I'm going to address this subject, but it keeps coming up so . . . 

Assuming Jamie hasn't dribbled on himself and washes regularly, there is nothing inherently "dirtier" about his penis than, say, his elbow. And given the standards of cleanliness of the day he's probably touched much dirtier and germ-ier things than his manhood. I know there's a tendency to think of genitals as "dirty" but the fact is that the bottom of his feet or his arm pits are probably worse for wear than that particular part of his body. It's not like he was going number 2.

Thank you!

I realize that hygiene is very important, but one of the biggest reasons it's so important to wash our hands after using the restroom (even when the only thing we do is pee) is that we inevitable touch things in the bathroom - things that have likely been touched by someone who had to go #2.  If you were just peeing in the woods, the need to wash your hands is not quite as urgent.

For the record, I do always wash my hands, and I do think it's very, very important.  I'm just saying, it's not like he had a choice or was in the habit of washing his hands every time he peed, and peeing was the only thing he did.

[WatchrTina]

On 12/30/2018 at 1:28 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I could have sworn that in the buik that both Jamie and Wee Ian confronted Roger, and that idiot gave them the name of Wakefield and not Mackenzie?

If I recall correctly, at the time that Roger meets Jamie and Wee Ian, both men are aware that Brianna has a special friend named Wakefield who may be looking for her.  But the guy who shows up on the ridge looking for his "wife" identifies himself as MacKenzie because that's the name (his real name) that Roger chose to use when he headed back in time.  Back then, it was not outside the realm of possibility for a man to "claim" a woman he had raped and gotten pregnant and that's what Jamie & Ian think "MacKenzie" is saying when he gets all shirty with them demanding to know where his wife is.

 

On 12/30/2018 at 10:28 AM, nodorothyparker said:

The Great Misunderstanding that requires everyone to be stupid and terrible is what it is

Oh I love this so much.  "The Great Misunderstanding" is going into my own personal lexicon for this series.

Edited January 3, 2019 by WatchrTina

[Stephanie1216]

On 12/30/2018 at 9:38 AM, AuntieMame said:

First thoughts. I thought that Bree’s emotions when she got back to the room with Lizzie were perfect, to the point of being triggering almost, as was Lizzie’s desperate desire to help. Harrowing it was. 

Normally, as you all know I’ve hated the Bonnett rape and the who’s the Daddy plot by the numbers nonsense but the first parts of this episode sold it to me. 

I also loved the joy and conflict of Bree meeting her father and feeling disloyal to Frank, all the while coping with her longing for Roger, her shame to see him again and the aftermath of the rape. 

I like Lizzie. And why shouldn’t she be suspicious of men. I’ve rethought some of my disdain about The Who’s the daddy patriarchal nonsense from everyone and the mixed feelings about a woman who has been raped. I stand by my discomfort with Gabaldon’s general level of sadism and the overuse of rape and pregnancy as easy plot devices. 

But, but, but, isn’t this the truth of women’s lives? Even still? A pregnancy can and does change our lives. The reaction of the man or men involved directly or indirectly has everything to do with just how bad our punishment is. A rape victim is still an object of suspicion even when believed. Men are still critical of when if and how women have sex, angry if they do, angry if a woman they desire denies them sex. Women really can be criticized for both having sex and not having sex and it is still effective.

And finally men that we have trusted and loved turn on a dime and show us their misogyny and privilege about our bodies when we least expect it as Roger and to a lesser extent Jaime do in this entire plot bonanza. 

So, I’m coming around to the emotional beats of some of this but the screwball comedy lack of communication that starts with this episode still grates. The name change? And nobody asks any questions? And if I were Roger and about to take a beating I would be doing all I could to at least scream out the truth. 

I continue to love the costumes on both men and women. They’re authentic and streamlined for the modern eye. I bought a book on eighteenth century costuming for Christmas and really noticed the way Outlander slimmed some of the silhouettes. One tiny standout for me was the beautiful quilting on Lizzie’s bodice. The knitting on this show remains superb. And shawls are a wonderful thing. I’m a little sad they’ve gone out of style with the advent of central heating because they’re beautiful, warm and fun to design and knit. 

PS - I thought Jaime being in the middle of a pee and the whole “I have a wife, lass.” was unnecessary and frankly just a little weird in a squicky way. 

You love the costumes?

i have almost stopped watching the show due to Rogers ridiculous short pants, as if he is not ugly and sissyfied enough already they put short pants on him and and teeny weeny ponytail. He grossed me out. The should have switched actors and made Bonnet Roger and Roger Bonnet. At this point I hate the rapist almost as much as I hate Roger.

are they so afraid of hiring a good looking man to play against Jamie? Think about it, there are no good looking men cast on this show except for Jamie. Even young Ian could have been a “hottie”. Fergus is handsome but they made sure to marry him off and keep him in the back ground of the story

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, Stephanie1216 said:

are they so afraid of hiring a good looking man to play against Jamie? Think about it, there are no good looking men cast on this show except for Jamie. Even young Ian could have been a “hottie”. Fergus is handsome but they made sure to marry him off and keep him in the back ground of the story

I too have noticed this. Fergus is the only man around that is any sort of eye candy. Richard (who plays Rodger) is quite handsome outside of character (I think he’s one of those men that looks much better with a chiseled face) but ummm yeah. Where’s the eye candy?!

[Ziggy]

27 minutes ago, Stephanie1216 said:

i have almost stopped watching the show due to Rogers ridiculous short pants, as if he is not ugly and sissyfied enough already they put short pants on him and and teeny weeny ponytail.

Roger's pants do look ridiculous compared to what men wear today, but if you look closer, I think you'll find that all of the men wear short pants like that.  It's just that most of them tucked the ends into their socks.

And I suspect the "teeny weeny ponytail" is done, in part, to show the passage of time.  Roger didn't exactly have long hair in the 1970's, so his ponytails is quite short right now.  I don't anticipate Roger cutting his hair anytime soon, so I suspect it'll get longer.

32 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I too have noticed this. Fergus is the only man around that is any sort of eye candy. Richard (who plays Rodger) is quite handsome outside of character (I think he’s one of those men that looks much better with a chiseled face) but ummm yeah. Where’s the eye candy?!

Lord John Grey

[toolazy]

44 minutes ago, Stephanie1216 said:

You love the costumes?

i have almost stopped watching the show due to Rogers ridiculous short pants, as if he is not ugly and sissyfied enough already they put short pants on him and and teeny weeny ponytail. He grossed me out. The should have switched actors and made Bonnet Roger and Roger Bonnet. At this point I hate the rapist almost as much as I hate Roger.

are they so afraid of hiring a good looking man to play against Jamie? Think about it, there are no good looking men cast on this show except for Jamie. Even young Ian could have been a “hottie”. Fergus is handsome but they made sure to marry him off and keep him in the back ground of the story

The costume designer, Terry Dresbach does not mistakes like that.  She researches everything and recently posted a bunch of pictures of 18th century sailors wearing pants like that.  Roger, being a historian would also have done research and come across similar pictures and dressed accordingly.

So he looked ridiculous. I think bum rolls are ridiculous.  The costume designers job is not to make people pretty - it's to help tell a story.  

[mary2013]

Speaking of costuming, am I the only one disappointed Brianna is not walking around wearing pants?

[toolazy]

20 minutes ago, mary2013 said:

Speaking of costuming, am I the only one disappointed Brianna is not walking around wearing pants?

She wore pants to go hunting. 

[Cdh20]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Richard (who plays Rodger) is quite handsome outside of character (I think he’s one of those men that looks much better with a chiseled face) but ummm yeah. 

I agree that Rik is good looking IRL , & it's weird that the same people who made Sam into HOT Jamie can't make him even more attractive for the show. 

Fergus & John are cute too! 

[CountryGirl]

3 hours ago, Ziggy said:

Lord John Grey

Hell yeah...

[AuntieMame]

4 hours ago, Stephanie1216 said:

You love the costumes?

i have almost stopped watching the show due to Rogers ridiculous short pants, as if he is not ugly and sissyfied enough already they put short pants on him and and teeny weeny ponytail. He grossed me out. The should have switched actors and made Bonnet Roger and Roger Bonnet. At this point I hate the rapist almost as much as I hate Roger.

are they so afraid of hiring a good looking man to play against Jamie? Think about it, there are no good looking men cast on this show except for Jamie. Even young Ian could have been a “hottie”. Fergus is handsome but they made sure to marry him off and keep him in the back ground of the story

Yes, I like the costumes. Especially the women. The costumes is accurate and I did discuss Roger's ugly pants in the original episode but did admit that though ugly, they were accurate. And the knitting is amazing. I read online about how many knitters want patterns for the knitwear. 

[morgan]

3 hours ago, toolazy said:

She wore pants to go hunting. 

Actually she didn’t!  I joined Twitter not long after outlander started just to follow Terry (costumer).  She has been such an amazing wealth of information, so fascinating what she puts out there.  While what Bree wears looks like pants, they aren’t.  They are kind of like an 18th century leg warmer, held with garters

[areca]

On 1/2/2019 at 6:34 PM, iMonrey said:

I can't believe I'm going to address this subject, but it keeps coming up so . . . 

Assuming Jamie hasn't dribbled on himself and washes regularly, there is nothing inherently "dirtier" about his penis than, say, his elbow.

Thank you!!  I feel terribly sorry for a lot of husbands, boyfriends, and SOs if I'm being honest...

[WatchrTina]

GENERAL

Man, this show loves emotional whiplash.  Consider the arc of this episode.  It starts out tense with the aftermath of the rape, then switches to a peak moment -- the utter joy of Brianna finding Jamie and Claire.  Then the episode switches to a light simmer for a good 45 minutes while we enjoy watching Fraser Family Time on the Ridge. (Oh yeah we drop in on a frustrated Roger from time to time).  And then, BOOM, the episode ends in a frenzy of secrets revealed, mistaken identity, and violence.  That’s a really weird arc for an episode.

 

THE GOOD

I don’t recall Lizzy actually seeing Brianna’s bruised and bloody body in the book.  It may have happened but I don’t recall it. I’m glad they put it in the episode. I think it was important that Lizzy (and we) actually SEE what was done to her.  It allows us to forgive Lizzy for the role she plays later on when she sets Jamie on Roger. Her horror on Brianna’s behalf is well-depicted, as are her futile attempts to give her comfort.

That knitted cape/scarf that Brianna was wearing at the beginning was gorgeous.  I don’t think they had huge buttons like that back then and I don’t think they had yarn in variegated shades like that back then but who cares?  I loved it.

On second viewing I picked up on Jamie’s professional distain for the printer who smudged the date on that newspaper.  Jamie (it seems clear) would NEVER have allowed that to happen, calling it an “unforgivable mistake.”  Loved that.

 

I also picked up this exchange on second viewing:

Jamie (to Murtagh): “You’ve a spy among your men?”

Murtagh: “Had.”

Damn. Murtagh don’t play.

 

The metaphor of bees “not in their proper place but content in their new home” was a bit heavy-handed but I liked it.  Brianna assumed Jamie was talking about her but the metaphor applies also to him (and Claire).

I loved that bedroom scene between Jamie and Claire, when Jamie can’t sleep because he doesn’t want Brianna to leave. It’s just so pretty.  I know that cabin is completely unrealistic but damn I love it. Jamie and Claire are pretty too.

I love the way Sam plays the moment when Jamie learns that Brianna has been raped.  He stands up. He paces back and forth.  He so clearly wants to DO something, ANYTHING. And there is nothing he can do.  At least, not then.

I think the moment of The Great Misunderstanding (TM nodorothyparker) is really well done.  Lizzy, on the one hand, tries to defend Brianna’s honor, declaring “She was a virgin when he took her.  I am her maid sir. I saw the blood.” But she also dials Jamie’s anger up to eleven with “I could smell him on her.”

And then we come to the best visual of the episode -- Jamie striding toward Roger looking like vengeance incarnate.  Damn that man looks good in black.  

 

THE BAD

I hate the inscription on that bracelet “I love you a little, a lot, passionately, not at all.” I don’t recall being bothered by it in the book but here, in that moment, it just made no sense.  I’ll bet non-readers were confused.

The moment when Brianna stops Jamie by putting a hand on his chest was badly choreographed. It was too intimate a gesture for their first meeting -- when he doesn't know who she is and she's not positive he's who she thinks he is.  I thought it felt unnatural.

I find it odd that the same girl who last week referred to Roger as “a man of wanton morals” (or something like that) would gaze unabashedly at Ian and declare him “so handsome.”  I presume they’re trying to give us a hint of an inner Lizzy who is capable (as we readers know) of setting up a household with identical twin husbands.  But we didn’t really need to see that little moment with Ian and I thought it rang false.

In the book, I love, love, LOVE when Jamie tells the story about Dougal having a wee chat with him one morning with one hand on his dirk and other hand grasping young Jamie’s morning woody.  That’s a great moment in the book series but it came much earlier – before the Rising.  I cannot wrap my head around TV!Jamie telling jovial stories at the dinner table about Dougal – the kinsman he had to kill to stop him from murdering Claire.  I just don't think Jamie would ever mention Dougal unless he absolutely had to. 

I have to scoff at the way everyone sleeps with a lit lantern nearby.  I know it’s just something you have to accept because the set has to be lit for TV and they need a plausible source of light.  But given the scarcity of resources like candles and whale oil, it would never happen. 

I also have to scoff at the notion that bees go to sleep and that you can get a whole hive (queen and all the worker bees) in a sack and carry it for miles and somehow NOT get stung repeatedly during the process.  BTW, they were eating honeycomb at the end.  Doesn’t that mean they broke up the hive?  But I thought they wanted to relocate it near the house and maintain it. I know I’m probably over-thinking this but it bugged me.  (Heh. “Bugged”)

Is anyone else troubled by the fact that Brianna and Lizzy sleep in a shed that doesn’t look very sturdy?   It feels weird to me that Jamie and Claire would have her sleep in a separate structure. It works for the show – that way Jamie and Claire don’t know about her bad dreams and it gives the writers a place to stash Lizzy when they have no need of the character’s presence.  And of course it gives Jamie and Claire the kind of private time that we viewers enjoy watching. But it feels weird that protective, papa-bear Jamie would let Brianna sleep out there.

 

THE UGLY

Roger’s face after the beating.  I was actually shouting at the TV, “No!  No! Not the face!”

 

UNANSWERED QUESTIONS

I thought Jamie and Claire lived way out in the back country on a huge plot of land occupied only by them and abutting Indian land.  If so, who the heck was that who drove by in a wagon when Jamie was beating Roger?  In know, I know -- it was the wagon of plot necessity.  Something had to happen to stop Jamie’s blind rage and prevent him beating Roger to death.  But seriously, who WAS that?  Ian recognized him.  Are we supposed to understand that Jamie HAS now attracted some tenants for his land? If so, when did THAT happen?

 

OTHER

I have speculations! (About this season and next – stop now if you don’t want to hear theories about future character development.)  Roger has been looking a wee bit dorky on the show so far, what with those high-water sailor pants and sad little ponytail.  Yet I know from other shows and publicity photos that Rik Rankin is actually quite a hottie.  Similarly, Ian has always looked (to me) like he was being wigged and costumed to make him look younger than the actor who plays him.  I think both men are going to be wigged and costumed in a more flattering manner in the future – the better to woo us viewers into falling in love with them.  In the case of Ian, I suspect the actor who plays him is going to hit the gym HARD between this season and the next to sell both his character’s transformation into a member of the Mohawk tribe and his emergence into manhood.  

Edited January 4, 2019 by WatchrTina

[toolazy]

4 hours ago, morgan said:

Actually she didn’t!  I joined Twitter not long after outlander started just to follow Terry (costumer).  She has been such an amazing wealth of information, so fascinating what she puts out there.  While what Bree wears looks like pants, they aren’t.  They are kind of like an 18th century leg warmer, held with garters

They were pants-adjacent. They weren't a skirt, which is really the point.

[nodorothyparker]

Book Lizzie doesn't see the bruises as much as she puts it all together when she's washing Bree's bloodied clothes out afterward.  And even then, on the page it's a bit of a misdirect because we don't know about the rape until it's revealed later in flashback when Bree is talking to Claire.  So from the reader's perspective, you think Lizzie is assuming that Bree's devirginizing was something it wasn't.

8 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Are we supposed to understand that Jamie HAS now attracted some tenants for his land? If so, when did THAT happen?

Jamie repeatedly mentions having settlers this episode, so he apparently did find somebody to take him up on his offer.  It seems a rather slipshod way of addressing it given that it was an earlier show plotpoint that he couldn't attract any, but if you look at the scene where they're all at the still there's unnamed extras in the background and Jamie mentions that they're the ones growing the grain they're using.  In another one of those bucolic happy family farm montages, more unnamed extras are talking to Claire from a wagon.

It was Murtagh telling the story about Dougal, but I thought it was an odd choice too given that he does know that Jamie killed him on the morning of Culloden.  It seems like a subject you'd want to avoid entirely five minutes after finally being introduced to Jamie's child and having just remarked how great it is to have family around the table again, but I realize their entertainment options are a lot more limited than ours.  The cabin's nice and all beyond anything bordering realistic, but it still doesn't have cable or internet.

I'm kind of amused the show is now using their original shelter as an-purpose guest room when it didn't for John and Willie and that even after all these episodes we still have no idea where Ian sleeps.  I guess Murtagh hauls three days' trek one way through the wilderness to camp out some more after he gets there.  But the outside of the cabin doesn't match the one-room interior anyway.  Is it one stories or two?  A second floor attic with windows, which seems hardly practical given the expense of glass at the time?

[GHScorpiosRule]

What was really odd was that although we had that shelter for Bree and Lizzie to sleep in, there was that one scene, where Jamie sees Bree sleeping and smiling. But she's in their cabin. Claire is in their bed across from her. So, was Bree given Wee Ian's bed? And I know it was a plot choice to show Jamie how much Bree is like him, but so shortly after the rape, would Bree be smiling in her sleep?

As for talk and reminiscing about Dougal, I guess they think 20 odd years is more than enough time to have passed to talk about the good times? But aye, 'twas Jamie who told the tale to Claire in Outlander, the buik, I believe.

[nodorothyparker]

10 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

The moment when Brianna stops Jamie by putting a hand on his chest was badly choreographed. It was too intimate a gesture for their first meeting -- when he doesn't know who she is an she's not positive he's who she thinks he is.  I thought it felt unnatural.

Now that I'm back from school dropoff, I'll agree that the staging of it felt a little odd to me too.  I know Bree's not of this time and all, but it still seemed really familiar for a guy she's never met and isn't 100 percent sure is Jamie.  In this version she didn't ask for Jamie Fraser, she asked for a tall red-headed Scotsman.  No wonder Jamie initially thought she was probably a working girl.  I guess we're to believe that she's so confident that this is the father she's never laid eyes on before that she's not at all bothered by touching a man who's a virtual stranger to her the morning after being raped even though we earlier saw her very pointedly tell Lizzie not to touch her.  I know show Bree is being weirdly written as even less competent than her book counterpart, but it's like it didn't occur to her that he might be just another red-haired Scottish guy who might read her familiarity the wrong way.

[Cdh20]

20 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

What was really odd was that although we had that shelter for Bree and Lizzie to sleep in, there was that one scene, where Jamie sees Bree sleeping and smiling. But she's in their cabin. Claire is in their bed across from her. So, was Bree given Wee Ian's bed? And I know it was a plot choice to show Jamie how much Bree is like him, but so shortly after the rape, would Bree be smiling in her sleep?

As for talk and reminiscing about Dougal, I guess they think 20 odd years is more than enough time to have passed to talk about the good times? But aye, 'twas Jamie who told the tale to Claire in Outlander, the buik, I believe.

He went into the shed to get Bree & that was Lizzy sleeping in the other bed.

Also No one but Jamie, Claire & Murtagh know how Dougal died, so they can fondly remember him! I laughed last season when Geillis said Dougal died at Culloden- he most likely would have died that day anyway, just a few hours later.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Cdh20

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

He went into the shed to get Bree & that was Lizzy sleeping in the other bed.

I need to rewatch, because it looked like it was Claire, and Jamie looked over toward her after watching over Bree. And said something about her smiling in her sleep.

[Cdh20]

I assume that is the shed they were all sleeping in before the cabin got built, now it’s the guest shed? Of course John & William must be special cause they got to stay in the cabin, lol! 

[WatchrTina]

When Jamie sees Bree smile in her sleep she's sleeping in the shed with Lizzy -- beside a lit lamp (grumble grumble).

When Jamie tells Claire that Bree smiles in her sleep he's back in the main cabin.

 

43 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And I know it was a plot choice to show Jamie how much Bree is like him, but so shortly after the rape, would Bree be smiling in her sleep?

Yeah that was a poor choice.  I know they wanted to throw us readers a bone but that seems to contradict what Lizzy says about Brianna having nightmares.

 

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

I'm kind of amused the show is now using their original shelter as an-purpose guest room when it didn't for John and Willie and that even after all these episodes we still have no idea where Ian sleeps.

Yeah, you're right.  Jamie and Claire slept outside under a crude shelter when they gave the cabin to John and Willie.  I guess we're supposed to assume that shed where Brianna and Lizzy slept was built later.  As for Ian, let's just a assume there is a lean-to attached to the cabin that we just haven't seen that functions as Ian's bachelor quarters (the Ridge version of a garconiare)  Come to think of it, Murtagh probably bunks down there as well.

Edited January 4, 2019 by WatchrTina
I'm having the worst time with the proper use of apostrophes this morning.

[nodorothyparker]

1 hour ago, Cdh20 said:

I assume that is the shed they were all sleeping in before the cabin got built, now it’s the guest shed?

I think it is.  In the book, they used the rough shed/lean-to they first built as shelter as a place for guest overflow and general storage.  They had book Ian and Willie staying in there until their own personal measles epidemic happened.  But they also had a trundle bed, which isn't as cool in reality as it sounds.

Quote

I guess we're supposed to assume that shed where Brianna and Lizzy slept was built later.

Quote won't attribute properly, but it's the same shelter Jamie and Claire and Ian were sleeping in when they were originally staking out the cabin and meeting their Native neighbors.

[Cdh20]

They should have made a bedroom in the cabin for privacy, then guests could stay inside! 

[pootlus]

6 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

They should have made a bedroom in the cabin for privacy, then guests could stay inside! 

To be fair, when they built it, it was just the two of them plus wee Ian, so they probably weren't thinking about extra accommodation.

6 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

Of course John & William must be special cause they got to stay in the cabin, lol! 

Given how up himself William was, I can imagine the sulking if he'd been made to sleep in a hut.  Brianna on the other hand I can see stubbornly (or politely) insisting on refusing to turf her middle-aged parents out of their own house.

They do build a much bigger one later IIRC which I'm looking forward to seeing.  I've given up rolling my eyes at how Jamie managed to build a perfect cabin with limited experience, glass in the windows and all the other mod cons.  It's more realistic that he managed to build a larger house once there are dozens of settlers to help and provide expertise.  I'd love to see the construction of this but I doubt they'll spend much time on it.

[Stephanie1216]

On 1/3/2019 at 1:51 PM, Ziggy said:

Roger's pants do look ridiculous compared to what men wear today, but if you look closer, I think you'll find that all of the men wear short pants like that.  It's just that most of them tucked the ends into their socks.

And I suspect the "teeny weeny ponytail" is done, in part, to show the passage of time.  Roger didn't exactly have long hair in the 1970's, so his ponytails is quite short right now.  I don't anticipate Roger cutting his hair anytime soon, so I suspect it'll get longer.

Lord John Grey

Yes John Grey is handsome but not on there enough and the fact that he’s not interested in girls makes him not eye candy for us viewing girls, meaning no hot steamy scenes with a girl. Seriously, and beautiful as Brianna is (BTW one of the best set of buttocks in hollywood) it was overshadowed by IMO Rogers unattractiveness. Why couldn’t they both be hot and sexy like Jamie and Claire?

does any one else think young Ian could have been cast as a more grown up hottie? I hate to harp on the fact that the actors aren’t good looking enough but for goodness sakes the show set the bar high with Jamie and Claire being the damn sexiest couple on TV

[Cdh20]

19 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I hate the inscription on that bracelet “I love you a little, a lot, passionately, not at all.” I don’t recall being bothered by it in the book but here, in that moment, it just made no sense.  I’ll bet non-readers were confused.

Yup, I made a comment that I don't like or get  that inscription.

[GHScorpiosRule]

58 minutes ago, Stephanie1216 said:

I hate to harp on the fact that the actors aren’t good looking enough but for goodness sakes the show set the bar high with Jamie and Claire being the damn sexiest couple on TV

Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And I find Rik verra attractive. And his sexay Scots Brogue amps up his hotness for me.

[Ziggy]

2 hours ago, Stephanie1216 said:

does any one else think young Ian could have been cast as a more grown up hottie?

I think Ian is fine for the moment.  He's supposed to be very young and innocent.  I'm curious to see what happens between now and the end of Season 5, assuming the follow The Fiery Cross and just stick to that for Season 5.  He's going to have to look very different.

[areca]

12 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

I assume that is the shed they were all sleeping in before the cabin got built, now it’s the guest shed? Of course John & William must be special cause they got to stay in the cabin, lol! 

They were ranking members of the nobility of the kingdom to which Jamie is both subject and former traitor.  Of course they were special...

Quote

He's supposed to be very young and innocent.

Ian has never been supposed to be innocent.  He lost his virginity at a brothel at Fergus' urging when he was just 14.  And you recall the "Good, you'll know what to do then." part of the Bakra scene with Geillis who was not entirely upset that he wasn't virginal.  Or rather upset at all.

Edited January 5, 2019 by areca

[Ziggy]

16 minutes ago, areca said:

Ian has never been supposed to be innocent.  He lost his virginity at a brothel at Fergus' urging when he was just 14.  And you recall the "Good, you'll know what to do then." part of the Bakra scene with Geillis who was not entirely upset that he wasn't virginal.  Or rather upset at all.

 

Maybe innocent wasn't the right word, but I wasn't referring to his sexual innocence.  I just meant that he's a very different person now than the person he will become, and I think the way he dresses and looks right now helps convey that idea.  I understand some people wanting a bit more eye candy, but I think that right now we (the audience) are meant to think that "Young Ian" is too young to "know" these things and that we should be mourning his lost innocence rather than drooling and thinking of him as another hottie.  I think we are meant to notice the drastic change in him when he returns to the Ridge.

Edited January 5, 2019 by Ziggy

[snowbryneich]

Ian is not meant to be innocent, but he's not meant to be a hottie either - He's repeatedly described as gangly and homely at this stage - Claire even thinks at one point his hazel eyes are his 'one claim to beauty'. When he comes back from the Mohawk he's all lean muscle from hard living but still skinny and obviously, then his tattoos mean he becomes very distinctive.

The cabin is so much nicer than I pictured - I wasn't sure if this was meant to be the big house (mainly because of the glass windows) the cabin never has those in the books they have windows of flattened horn (let in light but not much use for seeing out of) but then it's not big enough to be the big house which had an upstairs and a surgery separate from the main room. 

[Ziggy]

3 minutes ago, snowbryneich said:

The cabin is so much nicer than I pictured - I wasn't sure if this was meant to be the big house (mainly because of the glass windows) the cabin never has those in the books they have windows of flattened horn (let in light but not much use for seeing out of) but then it's not big enough to be the big house which had an upstairs and a surgery separate from the main room. 

When did they get the "Big House?"  Was it at the end of Drums?  I realize we may never actually get the Big House, but I was thinking they wouldn't have been living there at this point, anyway.  Is that correct?

[snowbryneich]

1 minute ago, Ziggy said:

When did they get the "Big House?"  Was it at the end of Drums?  I realize we may never actually get the Big House, but I was thinking they wouldn't have been living there at this point, anyway.  Is that correct?

 

That's right - I think at this point they have done the foundations and I think they put the roof on the surgery for Roger to stay when he arrives back and they do a bit more roofing which allows Jamie and Claire to move in and not be kept up by Jem crying at night. (Bonus of being a grandparent) and Roger then eventually moves into the cabin. 

It's just occurred to me that the glass windows in the current property are probably for ease of filming and light so maybe it is meant to be the cabin. I did really want to see Claire's surgery but I guess you can see part of it in the current house with her hanging herbs and the jars of alcohol etc.

[toolazy]

4 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

When did they get the "Big House?"  Was it at the end of Drums?  I realize we may never actually get the Big House, but I was thinking they wouldn't have been living there at this point, anyway.  Is that correct?

As I recall, they were buttoning up the big house around the time that Roger showed back up. It seems like he was the the first patient in Claire's surgery.

[theschnauzers]

IIRC, the Frasers had to build, and rebuild, and rebuild a second time after they returned from New York and Pennsylvania in the later books. So the biggest of their houses was being finished as Bree and Roger and the kids return from 1980s Scotland. How the show intends total with it, I’ve no idea, but I would guess the fire will cause a rebuilding but probably not the only one.

[AD55]

On 12/30/2018 at 10:28 PM, virginia blue said:

Loved every minute of this episode. I’ve never cried during Outlander before, but Claire and Bree’s reunion, as well as the scene where Bree tells Claire about her rape, had me tearing up. Major kudos to both actresses. I also thought it was a huge improvement over the book. Everyone’s actions made sense in the context of the information they had.

I do regret that they left out Claire’s line about the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of the withdrawal method, since it’s one of my favorite of the entire series. 

My theory is they're saving this line, and Claire will say it to Roger, not Bree.

ETA: Well, this didn't age well. :)

Edited January 6, 2019 by AD55