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S04.E09: The Birds & The Bees

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As Brianna struggles to compartmentalize the trauma she's suffered in the wake of the tragedy that befell her in Wilmington, she refocuses on finding her parents.

Reminder: The is the book talk thread. This can include spoilers for ALL the books. If you wish to remain unspoiled for any of the books, please leave now and head to the No Book Talk episode thread.

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Sam just manages to make me smile and cry at the same time. That first meeting between Jamie and Brianna and Claire and Brianna gave such FEELS!!!!!!

I really just wanted to fast forward the scenes with Bonnett, but forced myself to watch. 

And this might be a nitpick and I ken it was all for PLOT! But with all of Lizzie being all protective over Brianna, and insistent that Roger is the man who raped her, did she not hear her mistress screaming and yelling for help in the tavern? Or was she just so ill she was dead fast asleep?😒😒

The beatdown of Roger was done...to make Jamie luik in a more favorable light. I could have sworn that in the buik that both Jamie and Wee Ian confronted Roger, and that idiot gave them the name of Wakefield and not Mackenzie?

I did love all the family moments, though. And some dialogue from the buiks, like how Dougal threatened a wee Jamie!😂😂

Again with a mostly silent Rollo! What is up with that???

I adore these quiet and intimate moments with Claire and Jamie.

I know I’ve been highly critical of Sophie’s acting, but I have to give her credit for her performance when she returned to her room. Very realistic. Though I wanted to slap Lizzie’s mouth shut. Yeah, I really dinna like her.

And Toni Graphia can shut up, with her self congratulatory back patting.

I like to think that Matt Roberts wrote all the guid[ material because he’s a buik reader.

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The reunions were very well done I thought. I thought Sam nailed Jamie's reactions and enjoyed the familt feel. Though there were a couple of bizarre bits. Why was Brianna telling Lizzy to be ladylike when in the book at this point she's marching round in breeches. She never really cares for the 18th century expectations of ladylike behaviour. 

I would have been totally okay as well if they had chose to cut out the Jamie having a piss against a wall (tree in the book) when Brianna finally finds him. Like he touches her face in both show and book and it's meant to be touching and yet part of me is just like WASH your hands first. Ahem

I was sad Brianna never went to River Run and met Jocasta. I hope she still goes there when they go to rescue Roger as that's the beginning of her relationship with Lord John but I wonder if they might be done with River Run the way they are condensing it. She could stay on the Ridge with Murtagh in the show. But I really want to see both Ian's proposal to Brianna and hers to Lord John as they are probably my fav parts of this whole mess.  

The things they insist upon on the show are weird. Like oh we have to have them sitting on a bench when Claire sees then like in the book. They aren't on a bench they're on a cart because Claire is back on the Ridge and she's sees them drive up together (with the glass for the windows that the house already has in the show.)

In the book Roger doesn't actually get to give Jamie a name. He is going by Mackenzie instead of Wakefield but Jamie actually asks him if he's Mr. Mackenzie to which he says yes. Presumably because a real introduction would have involved his first name and stopped the comedy of errors in its track.

I loved the bit where Jamie saw Brianna smiling in her sleep and knew that was like him.

And while Lizzy is getting a lot of flack I think her suspicion of men in general is explained by her history. And I liked they've kept her book crush on young Ian who remains oblivious at this point. Oh yeah my dog is handsome. Bless him.

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One of my favorite episodes (until the end).  I really enjoyed Brianna meeting Jamie and reuniting with Claire. I thought Sophie was especially wonderful in this episode, conveying her conflict over bonding with Jamie and feeling disloyal to Frank.  It was very well done. And I thought Sam did equally well in playing Jamie's understanding of that conflict. Jamie was so happy to have his daughter with him, and be able to acknowledge her as his child.  It was wonderful to watch.

I'm not happy with what Roger is going to have to endure over the next episode (or two) but I hope we get some happy stuff mixed in

 

And I did adore seeing young Ian again and the comedy of Lizzy being enamored of him and him being oblivious to it.

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Well, here goes. I thought that the meeting of Jamie and Brianna was absurdly acted. Jamie met his daughter, who time traveled to be with her parents, and he seemed to have minimal emotions. He should have been brought to his knees overwhelmed with shock, joy, and happy tears. Sam acted as if Brianna had been away for a week on holiday and then returned home. I think Sam does an OK job, but I have never been very impressed by his acting chops. 

Plus, he urinates and then does not have the ability to wash his hands and touches her face. It speaks volumes about the times back then. 

I loved the episode nevertheless because there is always a quiet beauty in the way the characters relate to one another and the sets are magnificent. 

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22 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

Well, here goes. I thought that the meeting of Jamie and Brianna was absurdly acted. Jamie met his daughter, who time traveled to be with her parents, and he seemed to have minimal emotions. He should have been brought to his knees overwhelmed with shock, joy, and happy tears. Sam acted as if Brianna had been away for a week on holiday and then returned home. I think Sam does an OK job, but I have never been very impressed by his acting chops. 

Plus, he urinates and then does not have the ability to wash his hands and touches her face. It speaks volumes about the times back then. 

I loved the episode nevertheless because there is always a quiet beauty in the way the characters relate to one another and the sets are magnificent. 

We all see things differently.   I thought Sam did an amazing job throughout the entire episode.   What I saw when Jamie meets Bree was a man in tears while at the same time filled with absolute joy.  

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First thoughts. I thought that Bree’s emotions when she got back to the room with Lizzie were perfect, to the point of being triggering almost, as was Lizzie’s desperate desire to help. Harrowing it was. 

Normally, as you all know I’ve hated the Bonnett rape and the who’s the Daddy plot by the numbers nonsense but the first parts of this episode sold it to me. 

I also loved the joy and conflict of Bree meeting her father and feeling disloyal to Frank, all the while coping with her longing for Roger, her shame to see him again and the aftermath of the rape. 

I like Lizzie. And why shouldn’t she be suspicious of men. I’ve rethought some of my disdain about The Who’s the daddy patriarchal nonsense from everyone and the mixed feelings about a woman who has been raped. I stand by my discomfort with Gabaldon’s general level of sadism and the overuse of rape and pregnancy as easy plot devices. 

But, but, but, isn’t this the truth of women’s lives? Even still? A pregnancy can and does change our lives. The reaction of the man or men involved directly or indirectly has everything to do with just how bad our punishment is. A rape victim is still an object of suspicion even when believed. Men are still critical of when if and how women have sex, angry if they do, angry if a woman they desire denies them sex. Women really can be criticized for both having sex and not having sex and it is still effective.

And finally men that we have trusted and loved turn on a dime and show us their misogyny and privilege about our bodies when we least expect it as Roger and to a lesser extent Jaime do in this entire plot bonanza. 

So, I’m coming around to the emotional beats of some of this but the screwball comedy lack of communication that starts with this episode still grates. The name change? And nobody asks any questions? And if I were Roger and about to take a beating I would be doing all I could to at least scream out the truth. 

I continue to love the costumes on both men and women. They’re authentic and streamlined for the modern eye. I bought a book on eighteenth century costuming for Christmas and really noticed the way Outlander slimmed some of the silhouettes. One tiny standout for me was the beautiful quilting on Lizzie’s bodice. The knitting on this show remains superb. And shawls are a wonderful thing. I’m a little sad they’ve gone out of style with the advent of central heating because they’re beautiful, warm and fun to design and knit. 

PS - I thought Jaime being in the middle of a pee and the whole “I have a wife, lass.” was unnecessary and frankly just a little weird in a squicky way. 

Edited by AuntieMame · Reason: Addition of peeing annoyance.
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Well, here goes. I thought that the meeting of Jamie and Brianna was absurdly acted. Jamie met his daughter, who time traveled to be with her parents, and he seemed to have minimal emotions. He should have been brought to his knees overwhelmed with shock, joy, and happy tears. Sam acted as if Brianna had been away for a week on holiday and then returned home. I think Sam does an OK job, but I have never been very impressed by his acting chops.

I think he was in shock and trying to process everything. Despite the fact of Claire's existence, and later, the knowledge of Geillis, time travel still must seem something so fantastical. I know I would see it so if I were him and not expect every other person in my life to be capable of jumping through time. I think he had resigned himself on never meeting Bree and, I would bet, she had become a figure in his imagination, like a book character. Jamie meeting Brianna is like Claire meeting George Washington -- a knock me over with a feather moment -- not to be believed.

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So, I’m coming around to the emotional beats of some of this but the screwball comedy lack of communication that starts with this episode still grates. The name change? And nobody asks any questions? And if I were Roger and about to take a beating I would be doing all I could to at least scream out the truth. 

*This* is where we see the emotion. Jamie came at Roger like a bull in a china shop and if Ian had not come along, he would've killed him. Obviously, I didn't like that it happened, but I liked it from a character and story moment. It's exactly what we would've expected from Jamie protecting his little girl. Forget the explanations, I'm killing you now. As for Roger, he didn't have a moment to blurt out anything. Jamie knocked him silly almost immediately. The only thing that seemed strange is Jamie telling Ian to take Roger off and dump him anywhere. I would think Jamie would've wanted to dispose of him himself.

Edited by Nidratime
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Considering how badly the show has whiffed on some of its bigger iconic book moments and how much it was hyping this "reunion," (which, just no, a reunion implies they've met when they haven't), I frankly wasn't expecting much going into this.  So while yeah, the initial meeting did feel a trifle underplayed as if Brianna had merely been off at school for a really long time, it mostly worked pretty well.  It stayed fairly faithful to the book meetup in that it basically happened by chance in an alley when neither were really expecting it Right Now and were winging it as best they could.  I can't get at all worked up about modern hygiene standards because if you start pulling at that thread, the whole fantasy of this series falls apart and you then have to think about the fact that it's in reality a story of often sweaty unwashed people going at it in the woods, or as we saw a barn, or wherever.  Both book Claire and Brianna acknowledge that it's all but impossible to maintain any sort of modern hygiene in the backwoods without running water and even then book Jamie comments that he's never known anybody to wash as much as they do and often doesn't see the point.

I do adore Ian's observation on meeting Bree and realizing he has this before unmentioned cousin that "When it comes to you,  Auntie Claire, I've learned it's better not to ask too many questions."  Hee.  Also liked Claire remarking after Bree mentioned Daniel Boone and worried about talking about history Jamie doesn't know about that "It's okay.  He's used to it."

This episode also finally made me understand casting Sophie as Bree because she really does have the most easy lovely chemistry with Sam as Jamie and in a couple of scenes where they had their heads close together, I could see enough of a superficial resemblance that made me buy the genetic father-daughter thing well enough for TV.  It's a shame that she's had to struggle playing the character for a full season and a half against other actors, saving Tobias Menzies, that she hasn't had that same chemistry with and has suffered as a result.  She was even better here in her scenes with Claire and Ian in that I could see her as comfortable with both and feeling a sudden sense of longing to belong despite her stating that she already has a home in her own time and is struggling with feeling disloyal to Frank.

The Great Misunderstanding that requires everyone to be stupid and terrible is what it is, but they at least tried to soften it bit around the edges.  If they're going to do it, it was a good move stripping out all of book Roger showing up and acting cocky and assholish demanding "his wife" right now and instead letting the beatdown happen before he'd barely gotten a word out.  He's probably still screwed either way because of what Lizzie thinks she saw, but his behaving so brashly in his first meeting with his would-be in-laws has always struck me as just asinine for a guy who's supposed to be both a smart guy and a historian who should have some idea how that would have gone over.  We skip the whole stupid Wakefield/MacKenzie name mixup, and even more importantly, Jamie hasn't talked to Bree about any of this to be acting on incomplete information from the horse's mouth, so to speak.  He's already clearly stewing from Claire's news of Brianna's rape and his realization that coming to his time and to see him and Claire, no matter how much he's loving having her there, is what put her in harm's way when he's suddenly told the man who caused it is right there.  The show also gives him a degree of plausible deniability in what comes next by him telling Ian to get rid of the guy and not knowing what he did with him after that.  It's still not great, but makes Jamie look more guilty of being angry and impulsive rather than premeditated.

At the rate they're going, Jamie and crew are really going to have to get busy building some more cabins to have places to put everybody.  He did allude to having settlers somewhere even if we never saw them and wanting to build one for Murtagh.

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Speaking about actions having consequences.... I am wondering if Brianna will ever tell Jamie and Claire about her little "visit" with Laoghaire in Scotland. Brianna certainly did pay a price for her parents decisions and actions relating to both Stephen Bonnet *and* Laoghaire MacKimmey Fraser (or whatever her last name is now).

Edited by Nidratime
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17 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

 

*This* is where we see the emotion. Jamie came at Roger like a bull in a china shop and if Ian had not come along, he would've killed him. Obviously, I didn't like that it happened, but I liked it from a character and story moment. It's exactly what we would've expected from Jamie protecting his little girl. Forget the explanations, I'm killing you now. As for Roger, he didn't have a moment to blurt out anything. Jamie knocked him silly almost immediately. The only thing that seemed strange is Jamie telling Ian to take Roger off and dump him in anywhere. I would think Jamie would've wanted to dispose of him himself.

This so much. And Jamie’s rage is so in character, and given how it played out in the show, I had no problem with it.  Though I did feel bad for Roger and I admit, I covered my eyes when Jamie was pummeling Roger’s face.

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Yes but, why doesn’t Jaime talk to Bree or at least Claire? The writing is trying to absolve Jaime so we don’t have to be critical of him but still. Like you said, everyone is forced to be stupid for this to work. Mixed feelings aside? We’ve never known Jaime to send a boy to do a mans job, so this is yet another flaw trying to fix a bigger flaw. 

Edited by AuntieMame · Reason: Because crazypants autocorrect changed job to hob. Because that makes sense.
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If I'm guessing just from how that scene played out, I think Jamie realized he could have very easily killed the man he believes to be his daughter's assailant if Ian hadn't shown up at that exact moment and doesn't trust himself not to if he doesn't walk away. He pointedly tells Ian not to kill him to not "make a murderer of you" but he wants him gone at that moment and doesn't much care how.  

Again, the problem starts with the original writing and without scrapping the whole stupid story entirely, the show is just plugging holes to try to make it appear slightly less awful.

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I finally understand Sophie Skelton.  The side by side profile shots of her next to Sam made it crystal clear.  I loved this episode.  Pretty much all of it.  

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I realize this is just me and my reading of the books but my favorite scene in the whole billion pages of the series was Jamie’s reaction to seeing Brianna. The “you are so huge! Well, where did I get that?” was a cherished line. So I was disappointed but I guess it would not work given the casting of Sophie. I thought Sam did a great job in the entire episode.

I prefer the day to day scenes as well as the focus on the realities of fertility and women’s lives in the 1700s. Those aspects made the books work for me. As much as the episode went there, I really enjoyed the outdoor scenes.

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1 minute ago, areca said:

I finally understand Sophie Skelton.  The side by side profile shots of her next to Sam made it crystal clear.  I loved this episode.  Pretty much all of it.  

I've always thought the face shape was a good match but the eye color bugs me, not because of the book descriptions, but because 2 blue eyed people do NOT have a golden brown eyed child-my daughter, the biology major assures me of this!

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Loved it.  

The post rape scenes were very well done, so uncomfortable and just terrible.  Lizzy was a good friend, and showed that really in a situation like that, there isn't really anything one can do.  Sophie really did well with that.

LOVED her meeting Jamie and the hug!!  I knew they would have the Claire reunion right there, but it worked well, Cait's face, priceless.  Also, the meeting with Ian and him just accepting her no questions asked...just amazing...

I feel a bit better that Bree got to have that sit down and talk about Jamie growing up and the feeling of family that we missed with them skipping Lallybrock.  

Good lord Sam was great in this episode - they need to use this for his Emmy reel next year - just perfect...his face when he first realized Brianna was who she was, and all the looks he gave her all episode, watching her while she slept, it was just so well done.  And then.  HIs RAGE and going after Roger - I couldn't watch it, but the first bit when he was coming at him and Rogers all "oh hello, can you help me?" and then "oh shit, this guys gonna murder me!!" I giggled for a split second and then that feeling went away and oh poor Roger!!!  Love Ian "want me to kill him?" - these two, so protective of Brianna...they are gonna feel like SHITE next week when they realize what they did...but good on the whole situation that they all think Roger went back to Scotland and back to the future, so no one was even thinking that his showing up would be even a possibility...and Lizzy - yes she was mistaken, but Brianna really wasn't in any mood to talk about anything to her after her encounter with Bonnet, so yeah....

So much to process...gonna watch that one again....

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I really enjoyed this episode. It wasn’t perfect, but I enjoyed the small moments, the bonding of Jamie and Bree, seeing Ian again.  Murtagh blends in perfectly.   The costuming and sets are stunning.  Love how their home and lands are growing and evolving.  Loved the bee hunt!  Am a little more understanding about the Lizzy casting.  Loved Claire’s excitement when telling Bree about meeting George Washington...the one person who would really get it.  And poor Roger!  

One small thing I wish they had done while showing Roger riding toward the ridge especially was I wish they had him singing.  I always picture Roger and his singing and feel like the importance of it to him has not been shown.  And with what is coming down the road for him it just would have been an easy way to add to his character development.  Just a wee nitpick for me.

Wish Bonnet would be resolved quicker but guessing that won’t happen....

Edited by morgan
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LOVED IT.  I did a 'power watch' at 1am and then just rewatched it again.  If someone could clairfy a conversation between Claire and Brianna.  When they were talking about the rape did Brianna tell Claire Roger used the 'withdrawal method'?  So if this is what I heard and (read on my TV) then the baby would to SB baby.  No question about it.  

I like Lizzie.  

Everyone seems to be getting caught up in the 'silly' miscommunication between everyone.  Lizzie never knew the name of the man, just what Rogre looked like.  She knew nothing of SB.  Jamie has only heard Roger's name.  Claire just recently found out it was SB who raped Brianna.  So IMO I can see how everything came in to play.  

Side note 2 blue eye parents can have a brown eye child.  Genetics is super crazy.  

PEACE

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1 minute ago, GingerMarie said:

LOVED IT.  I did a 'power watch' at 1am and then just rewatched it again.  If someone could clairfy a conversation between Claire and Brianna.  When they were talking about the rape did Brianna tell Claire Roger used the 'withdrawal method'?  So if this is what I heard and (read on my TV) then the baby would to SB baby.  No question about it.  

I like Lizzie.  

Everyone seems to be getting caught up in the 'silly' miscommunication between everyone.  Lizzie never knew the name of the man, just what Rogre looked like.  She knew nothing of SB.  Jamie has only heard Roger's name.  Claire just recently found out it was SB who raped Brianna.  So IMO I can see how everything came in to play.  

Side note 2 blue eye parents can have a brown eye child.  Genetics is super crazy.  

PEACE

Well I chalk it up to Jenny having those dark brown eyes, since she is Jamie's sister! 

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Bree was trying to tell Claire that Roger pulled out as their form of birth control.   As someone who has a withdrawal method child (yeah, it does happen), it makes me a little sorry they didn't include book Claire's immediate response that "You know what we in the medical profession call people who use that method?  We call them parents."  But I realize that  wouldn't make the who's the daddy sweepstakes murky enough for viewers.

The show is at least cutting some of the stupidest and most objectionable parts of this story, including Roger showing up to his would-be in-laws for the first time basically behaving like an ass while demanding his wife without any sort of proper introduction and Jamie running around screaming about Bree's maidenhead.  The word "wanton" gets thrown around in there as this only gets more convoluted and Claire has to concede to Bree that well, yeah, Jamie's kind of old-fashioned on the subject of sex and with good reason.

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35 minutes ago, GingerMarie said:

LOVED IT.  I did a 'power watch' at 1am and then just rewatched it again.  If someone could clairfy a conversation between Claire and Brianna.  When they were talking about the rape did Brianna tell Claire Roger used the 'withdrawal method'?  So if this is what I heard and (read on my TV) then the baby would to SB baby.  No question about it.  

 

Not at all.  Remember that old adage, what do you call people who use the rhythm method/or pull out method?  Parents!  Lol.  Pre-ejaculate contains sperm so yes, Roger is in the running for fatherhood.

Edited by morgan
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24 minutes ago, morgan said:

Not at all.  Remember that old adage, what do you call people who use the rhythm method/or pull out method?  Parents!  Lol.  Pre-ejaculate contains sperm so yes, Roger is in the running for fatherhood.

 

I read an article recently that the cervix has little caves where sperm can hang in stasis for days and then start moving again when they get biochemical signals that ovulation has taken place. Explains why rhythm failed even for those being very careful. 

As for men policing other men. IRL, a friend of a friend was in an abusive relationship. Things came to a real head when the guy put a gun in her mouth (and the assumption was raped her) and even worse threw her then seven year old son against a wall, injuring him. My friend rescued them and let the whole family live with him for a year while they recovered financially, physically and emotionally. Nothing happened to the guy because of worries about reporting rape and child abuse. I soooo wanted a group of guys to give the abuser a taste of his own medicine. I'm not normally a vengeance kind of person. So I understand the impulse but getting all of the facts is important. 

Feeling so bad still for both Lizzie and Brianna in that first scene. I don't blame Lizzie. I guess I just don't understand why Jamie didn't talk to Claire if not before the River fiasco, after. He always talks to Claire. The point of their life is that it is emotionally intimate as well as physically intimate. That more than anything else is the epic fail here. The whole underpinning of the series is sabotaged by this. 

Edited by AuntieMame

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I do wish Claire had that line in this ep. With only 4 eps left, I hope they don't draw out finding Roger. Poor guy! Does anyone know if we get more River Run and Jacosta?

Spoiler

Jemmy's paternity is established in a later book--he's Roger's. They figure it out due to a birthmark. Maybe they'll push that a little more forward. I really hope so.

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I assume we get more river run because one of the scenes in the opening is Bree walking down the stairs in a beautiful dress.  Definitely looks like river run!

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I was also wondering how long they're going to have poor Roger stuck with the Indians on the show. In the book wasn't he there for like nine months or something? Because by the time he and Bree finally reunite, Jemmy's born and they haven't seen each other in almost a year. 

There's probably going to be a significant time jump again in one of these episodes, with only four left. And I wonder if they will have Bree at River Run and hanging out with Lord John in this. I think they kind of have to, assuming they're going to do the part where she gets him to lead her to Bonnet and then that's how he escapes. Although I suppose the character who does that doesn't have to be John, but they might as well have him back for another episode.

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4 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

I've always thought the face shape was a good match but the eye color bugs me, not because of the book descriptions, but because 2 blue eyed people do NOT have a golden brown eyed child-my daughter, the biology major assures me of this!

My family teases me because I mention this in every show and movie I see it in. They say I can’t suspend reality and they don’t ever notice eye color in these things. Lol.

 

Edited to add, even if it’s genetically possible, it’s certainly rare. 

Edited by Eureka

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36 minutes ago, morgan said:

I assume we get more river run because one of the scenes in the opening is Bree walking down the stairs in a beautiful dress.  Definitely looks like river run!

Maybe her wedding to Roger?

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7 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

So, I’m coming around to the emotional beats of some of this but the screwball comedy lack of communication that starts with this episode still grates. The name change? And nobody asks any questions? And if I were Roger and about to take a beating I would be doing all I could to at least scream out the truth.

That part absolutely infuriated me in the book!!!  I thought the way it played on in the show was much better.  I don't think the name change even came up, did it?  I agree that Jamie and Ian jumping Roger and Roger not really explaining just didn't quite work for me.  I thought they way it was done in the show was much more believable.  It all happened so fast - Lizzie seeing Roger and telling Jamie and Ian who he was, then Jamie going out to take care of things.  It worked.

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22 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

I guess I just don't understand why Jamie didn't talk to Claire if not before the River fiasco, after.

 

There was no after.  The episode ended with Jamie telling Ian to get Roger "out of my sight."  Though, you're right, in the book he and Ian said nothing until they saw Bree's drawing.

So, I just watched the scene again.  Ian stopped Jamie because someone was coming - Tom Burley.  Who's Tom Burley?

Edited by Ziggy · Reason: Typos, ug!
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cannot get ride of the quote box, sorry!  Could Tom Burley be Tom Christie?  He was one of the settlers at Fraser's ridge and at least in the books plays a somewhat important role.

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8 minutes ago, abbey said:

cannot get ride of the quote box, sorry!  Could Tom Burley be Tom Christie?  He was one of the settlers at Fraser's ridge and at least in the books plays a somewhat important role.

I was wondering that, too.  I kind of lost track of all of the people on the Ridge :-)  Also, life at the Ridge all blurs together to me.  I've only read books 4 through 8 one time.  I do want to read them again, but no time right now.

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45 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

There was no after.  The episode ended with Jamie telling [b{Ethan[/b] to get Roger "out of my sight."  Though, you're right, in the book he and Ian said nothing until they say Bree's drawing.

So, I just watched the scene again.  Ian stopped Jamie because someone was coming - Tom Burley.  Who's Tom Burley?

I think you mean Wee Ian.

Probably a neighbor or someone they know from town-just a plot contrivance so Jamie wouldn’t kill Roger.

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1 minute ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I think you mean Wee Ian.

Probably a neighbor or someone they know from town-just a plot contrivance so Jamie wouldn’t kill Roger.

Oops!!!  I definitely meant Ian.  Yep, I was also thinking it could be just a neighbor or someone visiting.  And it was definitely convenient.  We wouldn't want Jamie to get arrested for murder.

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6 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

Well I chalk it up to Jenny having those dark brown eyes, since she is Jamie's sister! 

Plus, we have people on this show who have "time travel genes" so two people with blue eyes producing one with brown seems the least of it.

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The attention to wardrobe detail has always been spot on, so it's really odd to have Brianna wearing 20th century eye makeup.  She packed that, too?

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I just watched the episode again, and I think Caitriona did an AMAZING job reacting to Brianna telling her she was raped.  Oh my gosh!  The pain and anguish!  Beautifully acted!!!

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13 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Plus, he urinates and then does not have the ability to wash his hands and touches her face. It speaks volumes about the times back then. 

Mr Tanner kept telling "wash your hands! Don't touch her face!" I was dying since he is a casual viewer . He was super proud that he guessed that Brianna was pregnant,though.

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Loved every minute of this episode. I’ve never cried during Outlander before, but Claire and Bree’s reunion, as well as the scene where Bree tells Claire about her rape, had me tearing up. Major kudos to both actresses. I also thought it was a huge improvement over the book. Everyone’s actions made sense in the context of the information they had.

I do regret that they left out Claire’s line about the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of the withdrawal method, since it’s one of my favorite of the entire series. 

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10 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

I've always thought the face shape was a good match but the eye color bugs me, not because of the book descriptions, but because 2 blue eyed people do NOT have a golden brown eyed child-my daughter, the biology major assures me of this!

This is a very simplistic (and inaccurate) understanding of genetics.  It is definitely possible for 2 blue-eyed parents to have a child with brown eyes. Here is just one explanation: https://genetics.thetech.org/how-blue-eyed-parents-can-have-brown-eyed-children

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I’m very happy that Brianna was able to talk with her Mom. Despite the issues they’ve had it’s clear they are very much Mother and Daughter- How she held her close and kept holding her hands felt very real. 

 

It was a great episode- the emotional beats were well done. 

 

On a shallow note, I know Caitorina is a few years older than Sam, but they’ve done a much better job aging her! She’s got grey hair and some crows feat, I know red heads  don’t normally grey but fade, but there’s no old age makeup on Jaime. He looks like Brianna’s older brother not her Dad!

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3 hours ago, shelen said:

The attention to wardrobe detail has always been spot on, so it's really odd to have Brianna wearing 20th century eye makeup.  She packed that, too?

It's like the fact that bikini waxes seem to have been popular in .medieval level Westeros. I understand that this is entertainment and that things are modified for contemporary sensibilities, but some things just take me out of the story and make me laugh. 

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2 hours ago, DietCokeJunkie said:

This is a very simplistic (and inaccurate) understanding of genetics.  It is definitely possible for 2 blue-eyed parents to have a child with brown eyes. Here is just one explanation: https://genetics.thetech.org/how-blue-eyed-parents-can-have-brown-eyed-children

I stand corrected! And will share with the kid! I do love how these threads get onto tangeants.

8 hours ago, Eureka said:

My family teases me because I mention this in every show and movie I see it in. They say I can’t suspend reality and they don’t ever notice eye color in these things. Lol.

 

Edited to add, even if it’s genetically possible, it’s certainly rare. 

It might be weird but I always notice everyone’s eye colour!

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9 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

I stand corrected! And will share with the kid! I do love how these threads get onto tangeants.

It might be weird but I always notice everyone’s eye colour!

You're not alone. I notice it too. 

Oh, poor sweet Roger! Just trying to get gems and find Bri so they can go back to safety. When Bonnet comes on screen I refer to him as Satan.

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12 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

On a shallow note, I know Caitorina is a few years older than Sam, but they’ve done a much better job aging her! She’s got grey hair and some crows feat, I know red heads  don’t normally grey but fade, but there’s no old age makeup on Jaime. He looks like Brianna’s older brother not her Dad!

Actually she is only six months older than he is. But I agree with you about the makeup, he didn’t look like he could be Bree’s father.

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If it wasn't for that ratty thing on his head that also covers his forehead, we'd be able to see the aging furrows they added to Sam's face. Then there's also the fact that Claire is five years older than Jamie. But the way Gabaldon has written them, despite the hard and rough life that Jamie has had, he's still very virile and despite the few gray hairs, Claire looks/is written and described as someone who looks 10 years younger than her age. That's the way they're written, and they're Gabaldon's characters and she has every right to write them as she sees fit, so I'm not going to quibble over how the show portrays them.

Plus, Jamie is still supposed to have sharp eyesight, yet they've given him spectacles to show his "age."

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10 minutes ago, Eureka said:

Actually she is only six months older than he is. But I agree with you about the makeup, he didn’t look like he could be Bree’s father.

Oh okay thank you!

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See, I'm in the opposite camp in that it often looks to me like the extent of aging effect the show is willing to give Claire is some gray streaking and the no makeup look.  I was really struck in this episode at a couple of points how almost washed out she looked as a result.  The aging on Jamie isn't always consistent, but I really notice it in outdoor scenes in natural light how they've given him lines around his mouth and you can see a weather-beaten effect on his cheeks and around his eyes.  In the right light, it looks believable to me.

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