S04.E06: Blood of My Blood

[Bort]

Quote

Jamie and Claire are surprised when Lord John Grey drops in on Fraser's Ridge with an unexpected traveling companion; when Grey takes ill, Claire must reconcile her personal feelings with her duties as a doctor.

Airdate: December 9, 2018

Reminder: The is the book talk thread. This can include spoilers for ALL the books. If you wish to remain unspoiled for any of the books, please leave now and head to the No Book Talk episode thread.

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

This episode should have been titled: All of the Eyes are Brimming with Unshed Tears.

[Cloudberryjam]

The ring😍! Jamie’s fur collar thing😍!  Claire and LJGs bitchy fight😱😆!  Cant wait for Bree at Lallybroch next week...

Edited December 9, 2018 by Cloudberryjam

[bluestocking]

Glad to see they fixed the "Da mi mille basile" ring.  And they are setting up a totally new and interesting storyline for Murtagh.  

[Petunia846]

Oh ho ho. Look who finally admitted they screwed up the wedding ring. Ha. I feel vindicated after all this time. Maybe now they'll learn to never listen to changes that Ron wants to make. (I don't mind changes, but throughout every season, when there's been a dumb or annoying change, it has always come out later that Ron wanted it. Once there was a even a thing that was the best scene in an episode and later I heard Ron say he had wanted to cut it but people overruled him.)

I don't have much else to say. Fine episode. William was weird and awkward and annoying, but that's William. A funny thing while I was watching...they shot that deer, and then Jamie was going to show William how to cut it up or whatever, and I just knew that it was going to be gross and they were going to show it because this is Outlander and they like to show guts and stuff. So I cover my eyes so I can't see. When I think it's safe I peek out, and of course that was right as the guts first spill out. Gahhh.

Oh, and speaking of gross. I was kind of grossed out when Jamie laid Claire on the bed, because a) she was wet and that was going to mess up their linens, and then I realized b) did she change the sheets after sweaty and sick Lord John was in them? Ick. I'm going to fanwank that in their gorgeously appointed, not very rustic cabin, they have a cedar chest full of bed linens and she has the other ones ready to get laundered.

[GingerMarie]

Very intersting episode.  I liked t;he actor they cast as Willie.  Good to know they kept him in character, bratty, I am better than you and an English nobleman and all that goes with it.  Murtagh's storyline is great.  I did not want to get on the bad wig bandwagon but I AM.  Jamie's bangs must go or at least wash the wig.  I love Murtagh and Claire's relationship.  I am sure they will 'butt heads' it is just a matter of time.  Lord John is a very selfish and brought Willie to shove in Claire's face.  I know he finally admitted it but it was great to watch their cat and mouse game.  It seems they each have a part of Jamie the other can't have.  Did they come away friends, not even close, but I do believe they have a better understanding of each other.  It was sad to watch Jamie with Willie.  To know that is your child but can not acknowledge  him I just can't imagine how difficult that was for Jamie.  It was very moving to watch Jamie during this episode.  This was an hour well spent.  

Edited December 9, 2018 by GingerMarie

[Future Cat Lady]

Am I the only one that feels that Ian not being there screws up a future storyline?

[Squirrely]

I missed Ian very much. Non- readers have no idea why a snake was in the privy in that opening scene. I was very much looking forward to seeing that acted out, dammit! 

I hated this episode. I hate that they have chosen to make the relationship with the nearby Indians so much more contentious. Willie wanders 10 paces behind the ridiculous carving to fish at dawn and a whole gang descends upon them for blood? Give me a break! I had second hand embarrassment for the actors having to perform that. 

I thought I would at least tear up a bit at the reunion but it all felt very wooden to me. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Squirrely
Typo

[cardigirl]

I'm going to have to rely on book readers with better memories than mine, but how closely did this episode follow the book?

I enjoyed the story, was glad to see a reunion between Jamie and his son, for Jamie's sake, and I was happy to see the silver ring for Claire.  How beautiful. I was hoping for more of Brianna and Roger, but I guess that comes next week.

[nodorothyparker]

Ian not being there does completely alter his story with William down the road should the show ever get that far.  Their adventure with the snake in the outhouse is one the funniest things Gabaldon ever wrote in this long long series, and it's why Ian initially recognizes William when they'll meet up again and forms the basis of their relationship.  Book Ian later recalls it to him as the moment he understood who they were to each other.  Hopefully, the showrunners have thought through the long term of skipping it better than most of the other things they've changed, but unfortunately the track record at this point suggests that they haven't.

That said, I did like a lot about this.  I'm always happy to see Lord John and think they did a decent job with Jamie finally getting time with his son, even if I really could have done without throwing in the adversarial crap with the Natives over a fish seemingly five feet over the treaty line.  I realize it's there to give Jamie the line about William being his son and William saying he isn't, but it's only going to fuel the complaints that the show is again using the Natives only as a backdrop to the story for drama.  It never really bothered me that book William doesn't connect that Mac=Jamie because half a lifetime has passed for him and they're on an entirely different continent without any context.  I mean, my own kids have failed to recognize adults who were former teachers or babysitters after a couple of years if they met them somewhere outside of where they knew them without some prompting to help place them.  But this is actually one change I like in that William called him on it and it does simplify that future William will only have to piece together his memories of one man and how he and Lord John know each other to realize Jamie was always there in the background and didn't just forget about him.  Their time together here was lovely and did include a nice callback to the Helwater episode.

Lord John and Claire were hitting all the points of their somewhat prickly relationship nicely, although again it did leave me feeling like the show really doesn't care about Brianna because yet again there was hardly reaction to the reveal that she exists for more talk about William.  And we get our first example of book John saying completely inappropriate things about his Jamie obsession to the Fraser women in telling Claire that he could have had Jamie once.  I enjoyed Murtagh being the worst dinner guest ever in just not letting the Tryon/tax thing go despite both Claire and Jamie pointedly trying to demur and his utter consternation that so this is what you've been up to all these years, making friends with the English like our former jailer and fathering illegitimate children on one.  They kind of dropped the ball though in Claire saying Murtagh will stay while she tends John and then we just never see him again.

This felt like the show acknowledging they screwed up Claire's original ring, although the one Jamie gave her this time was clearly the work of a master silversmith and probably not someone who's just been doing basic smithing for the last several years.

[FnkyChkn34]

I'm pleasantly surprised to see comments here about liking this episode... because I did not. I was bored, and I'm not a fan of Lord John or Willie. It's bad when I find myself hoping for a Brianna scene...

Also, what was with Willie's facial expressions? I found it interesting to bring up and include some of the privy scene because he looked like he had to go the entire episode. 

Murtagh was the redeeming part of the episode for me.

The bathtub scene was so cheesy I think I laughed out loud. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by FnkyChkn34
Typo

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

I'm going to have to rely on book readers with better memories than mine, but how closely did this episode follow the book?

Not all that closely in my opinion. The similarities with the book would be Lord John gets measles, Jamie takes Willie away, and Willie is a spoiled brat.

-Young Ian was there and figures out Willie is Jamie's son. Those are two big changes, and comes up in later story lines if they get that far, but now it can't really.

-No Murtaugh, obviously. So him being there and knowing about Jamie and Willie is astronomically different. As is their arguing.

-Willie doesn't recognize Jamie as Mac, at least not at this point. So that's different and all of the angsty conversations around that are new.

-Pretty sure Jamie doesn't give Claire a new ring.

-As far as I remember, all of the stuff with the Native Americans is show only. So Jamie yelling out Willie is his son totally threw me until I realized they were going to have Willie believe he was just saying that to save him.

 

All I really want from this change of keeping Murtaugh alive is to see him meet Bree!

[GHScorpiosRule]

There’s just no pleasing everybody. Personally, I am enjoying these quiet intimate moments between Jamie and Claire. William is bratty as he was in the buik, but I wish they’d kept Wee Ian in this episode. As others have stated, this changes everything about  Willie and Wee Ian’s relationship in the future.

And further proof that there are good wigs on this show—Lord John’s didn’t look like one, while the rag Brillo pad that passes for Jamie’s hair continues to make my eye twitch, and is SUCH an eyesore. Who do we I have to ask to why this atrocity on the LEADING MAN’S HEAD??🤬🤬

Because I still read romance, and I’ve always thought of these buiks as romance, even if Gabaldon didn’t, I don’t mind the scenes such as Jamie bathing Claire. But to each their own.

Edited December 11, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[WatchrTina]

Whoo hooo!  I loved it.  I'm posting without reading anyone's comments.  I just wanted to weigh in to register my happiness.

It's not perfect (more on that later) but there was SO MUCH TO LOVE in this episode -- both in what they kept from the book, what they changed, and how they went full circle to un-do a  prior change from season one (the ring.)

Now I'm off to watch it a second time with the closed captions on.  I love, love, LOVE David Berry as Lord John but I had a wee bit of trouble understanding him in a few moments.

Whoo hooo!

[nodorothyparker]

A lot of the bedside conversation between Lord John and Claire was lifted almost word for word from the book, although they did soften a couple of lines about Claire's acceptance of John being gay and wishing him well with it, as I figured they might for a modern audience.  They completely skipped Jamie and William's discovery that the local measles epidemic has also wiped out a sizable portion of the local Native population, on which I would have bet money would have been the followup to last week.

As much as I normally don't notice wigs on TV I second the wig complaint.  Duncan Lacroix has joked about his "Gandalf" silver fox getup in interviews and it looks amazing on him.  Lord John's isn't bad either even if it was giving me shades of Brad Pitt in Interview With the Vampire in his sickbed scenes.  Yet our leading man consistently looks like he just pulled a slightly greasy bucket off of his head.

[Ziggy]

Love the part where Lord John calls Claire "devastatingly straightforward" and she says she was born that way, to which Lord John quietly responds, "So was I."  Oh the anguish!  What a fabulous character!

I really enjoyed this episode.  Loved seeing Jamie and William interacting and Claire and Lord John working through their insecurities about Jamie and each other.

I was really excited at the beginning when they showed the rattlesnake.  I didn't realize until much later that they had actually not included that scene.  I know they can't include everything, but I was a bit bummed.  I wonder why they chose to use it at the beginning.  It doesn't really make any sense on it's own.

3 hours ago, Rilla-my-Rilla said:

Jamie yelling out Willie is his son totally threw me until I realized they were going to have Willie believe he was just saying that to save him.

Me too!  At first I really thought they were going to go there!  I remember being shocked when (in the show) Jamie told Claire about Willie.  It thought, no, they're not going to make another change, are they?  I'm glad Willie didn't believe him.  I thought that made more sense.

[Nidratime]

Quote

I wonder why they chose to use it at the beginning.  It doesn't really make any sense on it's own.

I think they were just giving a nod to the snake in the privy scene in the book without actually adapting it. Apparently, Murtagh's presence on Fraser's Ridge, his reactions to Lord John and Willie, and his learning about who Willie is took the place of having Young Ian there. But I don't know how that's going to effect future developments. They do have to incorporate the new Murtagh storyline, which is bound to cut out other things we know from the books.

[Quickbeam]

I love the actor and his portrayal of Lord John so it was a good episode for me. I found the dancing around his proclivities interesting as well as his understanding that Claire sees through him. The scenes were well done. 

Jamie and Willie: the scenes were warm. I find I have to force myself to look beyond the bad wig. It just never looks right. 

[ruby24]

I don't think it's that important to have this earlier William/Ian stuff for later. Ian can just meet him grown and figure out he's Jamie's son by sight, the way everyone else does, and then they just interact as they would on first meeting. The more important stuff for them comes with the Rachel triangle, doesn't it?

[melody16]

It was a well done and well acted episode. Very good adaption from the book. I do agree, however, that the scene with the Cherokee was ridiculous and didn't need to be in the episode. 

Sam is the definite mvp for the season for me. One of the most poignant things about Jamie's character is that he did not get to be a father to his children throughout most of their lives and Sam nailed that sadness. 

But, as much as I enjoyed the episode, I'm just glad this part of the story is done with. I like adult Willie and Lord John well enough and especially Lord John's interactions with Brianna later on in DoA, but I never liked this particular storyline in the book. 

The promo for next week puzzled me. I get that they don't want to give too much away but it seemed to focus on Bonnet rather than Brianna. Are they going to have her reach America in  the course of one episode? 

Edited December 9, 2018 by melody16
Typos

[WatchrTina]

GENERAL

This episode is a tour-de-force of ensemble acting.  There is so much quiet drama in this episode – so many smoldering emotions seething just below the surface and then bursting forth.  Wow.

I thought the young actor playing Willie did a good job and he looked so much like the prior incarnation of Willie that I had to double-check.  It is not, however, the same actor.

 

THE GOOD

Oooh that title-card was a nice shout-out to the readers.  I recollect a snake-in-the-privy story line and if I’m remembering it correctly Ian and William both end up covered in shit.  I am A-OK with that bit of the story being deleted (that’s not a visual I need to see) but I like the snake being there on the title card.  I wonder what the non-readers will think. I wonder if they will think the snake in the privy is a metaphor for hidden danger – some vague reference to the simmering animosity between Murtagh and Lord John and the fine line that Jamie is trying to tread between their opposing points of view.

I liked that Jamie was chopping wood when John arrived.  Otherwise he should have heard the horse and seen the rider before John calls out his greeting.  (In the book, people always shout a “Hello the house!” from a good way off so as not to surprise people, which always struck me a good manners and a sensible safety precaution.)

That scene in the cabin when Claire, Murtagh, and Willie walk in on Jamie and John is just wonderful.  The look on Jamie’s face when he sees his son!  The look on Claire’s face when she sees John!  And Murtagh’s reaction to John’s friendly greeting!  That whole scene was made of win.  It continued to be great when Claire & William go outside and Jamie, Murtagh, and John are left  alone to form an agreement to not mention Ardsmuir Prison (but with a wee bit of snark thrown in by Murtagh.)

The tension at dinner – what with Murtagh stirring the shit and Claire lending a hand – was a thing of beauty.  Poor Jamie.

I like that we cannot know whose version of the story of the tax-collector being beaten and paraded through the streets is true.  John says there were witnesses – presumably he’s been told there were witnesses (and told by people he trusts) – but  he probably hasn’t actually spoken to those witnesses and we know how stories evolve in the telling.  Meanwhile Murtagh presumes it’s a lie told to discredit “his” side – a tactic he is no doubt familiar with from the Rising in Scotland. I’m an American so I ought to be TeamMurtagh but I’ve also read the books so I know that not all of the “Regulators” were good guys like Murtagh.  Some were mere thieves (like Bonnet) who saw an opportunity to dress-up their lawlessness with feigned righteousness by targeting tax collectors.

Willie recognized “Mac”!  Wow! That’s a HUGE change from the book! But I applaud it.  All that follows (including Willie reverting to some childhood stubbornness about getting on the horse and “Mac” taking the same tone with him that he did in childhood) was great.  It makes it all the more poignant when William hears Jamie “lie” to the Indians and claim to be his father so as to take his punishment. 

BTW the scene with the Indians was great addition.  In the book, during this trip Jamie comforts William in his grief with a calming draught (provided by Claire) and then he holds him as they sleep.  That works fine in the book (because we are in Jamie’s head and we know his actions are those of a loving father) but on screen – in this day and age – that would not fly.  Instead, TV!Jamie had to sit by the fire all night keeping watch over the sleeping boy so that there is no question of his intentions.  But as such, there needed to be another scene – another action – to drive home the bond between Jamie and William that is cemented during this trip. That’s why the new scene by the river, with both Jamie and William trying to take the punishment and spare the other, is so great.

And then we get to the scenes between John and Claire.  Holy shit those were great!  The writers pulled in all the best moments from the prior books that had been skipped over and incorporated them into those scenes so that every bit of resentment and jealousy between those two spills out onto the screen.  And then we see their begrudging recognition of their similar fates – of not being able to love the person they married – at least not in the way they both loved Jamie.  I applaud Cait’s performance (as usual) but I have to say BRAVO to David Berry. He was amazing in a very nuanced performance.

Speaking of new scenes – now Murtagh knows about Willie too!  I don’t know if that will ever impact the story – Murtagh can keep a secret, ye ken – but what a moment!  I’m okay with the change because it felt earned.  It is the only thing Jamie could have said to explain why the arrival of John – their former jailer – brings such joy to Jamie and why Jamie is so protective of John’s “son”.

Okay here’s a bunch of little things I loved:

·     Jamie and John playing chess again.

·     John not realizing he is ill because he thinks he’s hung-over from Jamie’s rot-gut home-brewed whiskey.

·     Claire automatically washing her hands in alcohol after diagnosing John and Jamie doing it as well without being told.

·     Jamie chastising Willie saying “Don’t kick.  It’s ill-mannered.”

·     Jamie later manipulating Willie into gutting his first deer by saying “Maybe you're not quite old enough.”

·     Jamie’s mentioning his own father serving as the trigger for Willie’s fears about John bubbling to the surface.

·     John in bed. Sue me.  As his temperature fell, he actually kept getting more and more “hot.”

·     Every single moment when John and Claire were alone together. 

·     Claire’s subtle farewell wish to John that he find “satisfaction” (love) in the future.

·     The choreography of the bathtub scene was great – especially the moment when Jamie presented the ring.  

·     And look! We got the ring described in the book! Remember the ruckus on this board in season 1 when the “ugly” ring – the one made from the key to Lallybroch – was first seen?  Ah, good times.

 

THE BAD

When Murtagh took his leave from the dinner table I was confused.  I thought he was leaving entirely but that didn’t make sense given that it was night.  Now I assume he was just going outside to set up a campfire for him to sleep by.  Does that really make sense? In the books there are many occasions when Jamie & Claire’s cabin is wall-to-wall with sleeping visitors.  I’m going to hand-wave it away because one of the things that makes this episode soar are all the private conversations that happened between various combinations of the five main characters.  Each grouping opens up a new private topic to be addressed and those conversations are EVERYTHING.  So I’ll just ignore Murtagh’s plan to sleep rough right outside the cabin as well as Jamie and Claire building yet another fire outside the cabin for no apparent reason.

Jamie tells Claire (when they are building that unnecessary fire) “I’ve been dreaming of a moment alone with you for weeks.”  Wait, what?  They appear to have been alone at the cabin for a while.  Ian is gone when Murtagh arrives. So what “weeks” is Jamie talking about?  That “romantic” scene outside felt shoe-horned in and made me cringe.  I really hate it when this show makes me cringe.

Cringe #2 came when Jamie is bathing Claire and starts spouting drivel about being “jealous of the rain itself” while Claire questions whether his kisses will rain down “in a drizzle or a torrent.”  Ugh. The Jamie and Claire that live in my head don’t talk that way and, in my opinion, neither do the ones that live in the pages of the book.

 

THE UGLY

I cannot think of a single thing to list in this section and that is a first!

 

OTHER

I want to love John’s final line to Claire during their bed-side chat.  When he comments again on how startlingly forthright she is (after she makes clear that she knows he is in love with Jamie) she says “I was born this way.”  He quietly responds, “So was I.”  

I want to love that line because I love the way John’s homosexuality is portrayed. In the books he is strong, heroic, honorable, and gay.  It’s just part of who he is.  I love, love, LOVE that Diana has created this heroic character who just happens to be gay.  But, alas the line, “I was born this way,” spoken in this context, conjured up images of Lady Gaga in my mind and that took me out of the moment. Damn you Pop Culture!

Edited December 12, 2018 by WatchrTina

[toolazy]

20 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

 But, alas the line, “I was born this way,” spoken in this context, conjured up images of Lady Gaga in my mind and that took me out of the moment. Damn you Pop Culture!

Take comfort from the fact that when  DG wrote DofA, Steph was only ten years old.

Edited December 10, 2018 by toolazy
To clarify what I was responding to.

[Eureka]

11 hours ago, Future Cat Lady said:

Am I the only one that feels that Ian not being there screws up a future storyline?

I felt the same way.

[WatchrTina]

On 12/9/2018 at 4:49 PM, toolazy said:

Take comfort from the fact that when  DG wrote DofA, Steph was only ten years old.

I have no idea what this means.

Edited December 12, 2018 by WatchrTina

[Sew Sumi]

Lady Gaga's real name is Stephanie.

[Nidratime]

Quote

Lady Gaga's real name is Stephanie.

So glad you cleared this up. I had no idea what this comment meant. Maybe I'm just too old! ;-)

[Tanner]

6 hours ago, Ziggy said:

Love the part where Lord John calls Claire "devastatingly straightforward" and she says she was born that way, to which Lord John quietly responds, "So was I."  Oh the anguish!  What a fabulous character!

Mr Tanner said , "how very Lady Gaga."

[Scarlett45]

5 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

GENERAL

This episode is a tour-de-force of ensemble acting.  There is so much quiet drama in this episode – so many smoldering emotions seething just below the surface and then bursting forth.  Wow.

I thought the young actor playing Willie did a good job and he looked so much like the prior incarnation of Willie that I had to double-check.  It is not, however, the same actor.

 

THE GOOD

Oooh that title-card was a nice shout-out to the readers.  I recollect a snake-in-the-privy story line and if I’m remembering it correctly Ian and William both end up covered in shit.  I am A-OK with that bit of the story being deleted (that’s not a visual I need to see) but I like the snake being there on the title card.  I wonder what the non-readers will think. I wonder if they will think the snake in the privy is a metaphor for hidden danger – some vague reference to the simmering animosity between Murtagh and Lord John and the fine line that Jamie is trying to tread between their opposing points of view.

I liked that Jamie was chopping wood when John arrived.  Otherwise he should have heard the horse and seen the rider before John calls out his greeting.  (In the book, people always shout a “Hello the house!” from a good way off so as not to surprise people, which always struck me a good manners and a sensible safety precaution.)

That scene in the cabin when Claire, Murtagh, and Willie walk in on Jamie and John is just wonderful.  The look on Jamie’s face when he sees his son!  The look on Claire’s face when she sees John!  And Murtagh’s reaction to John’s friendly greeting!  That whole scene was made of win.  It continued to be great when Claire & William go outside and Jamie, Murtagh, and John are left  alone to form an agreement to not mention Ardsmuir Prison (but with a wee bit of snark thrown in by Murtagh.)

The tension at dinner – what with Murtagh stirring the shit and Claire lending a hand – was a thing of beauty.  Poor Jamie.

I like that we cannot know whose version of the story of the tax-collector being beaten and paraded through the streets is true.  John says there were witnesses – presumably he’s been told there were witnesses (and told by people he trusts) – but  he probably hasn’t actually spoken to those witnesses and we know how stories evolve in the telling.  Meanwhile Murtagh presumes it’s a lie told to discredit “his” side – a tactic he is no doubt familiar with from the Rising in Scotland. I’m an American I ought to be TeamMurtagh but I’ve also read the books so I know that not all of the “Regulators” were good guys like Murtagh.  Some were mere thieves (like Bonnet) who saw an opportunity to dress-up their lawlessness with feigned righteousness by targeting tax collectors.

Willie recognized “Mac”!  Wow! That’s a HUGE change from the book! But I applaud it.  All that follows (including Willie reverting to some childhood stubbornness about getting on the horse and “Mac” taking the same tone with him that he did in childhood) was great.  It makes it all the more poignant when William hears Jamie “lie” to the Indians and claim to be his father so as to take his punishment. 

BTW the scene with the Indians was great addition.  In the book, during this trip Jamie comforts William in his grief with a calming draught (provided by Claire) and then he holds him as they sleep.  That works fine in the book (because we are in Jamie’s head and we know his actions are those of a loving father) but on screen – in this day and age – that would not fly.  Instead, TV!Jamie had to sit by the fire all night keeping watch over the sleeping boy so that there is no question of his intentions.  But as such, there needed to be another scene – another action – to drive home the bond between Jamie and William that is cemented during this trip. That’s why the new scene by the river, with both Jamie and William trying to take the punishment and spare the other, is so great.

And then we get to the scenes between John and Claire.  Holy shit those were great!  The writers pulled in all the best moments from the prior books that had been skipped over and incorporated them into those scenes so that every bit of resentment and jealousy between those two spills out onto the screen.  And then we see their begrudging recognition of their similar fates – of not being able to love the person they married – at least not in the way they both loved Jamie.  I applaud Cait’s performance (as usual) but I have to say BRAVO to David Berry. He was amazing in a very nuanced performance.

Speaking of new scenes – now Murtagh knows about Willie too!  I don’t know if that will ever impact the story – Murtagh can keep a secret, ye ken – but what a moment!  I’m okay with the change because it felt earned.  It is the only thing Jamie could have said to explain why the arrival of John – their former jailer – brings such joy to Jamie and why Jamie is so protective of John’s “son”.

Okay here’s a bunch of little things I loved:

·     Jamie and John playing chess again.

·     John not realizing he is ill because he thinks he’s hung-over from Jamie’s rot-gut home-brewed whiskey.

·     Claire automatically washing her hands in alcohol after diagnosing John and Jamie doing it as well without being told.

·     Jamie chastising Willie saying “Don’t kick.  It’s ill-mannered.”

·     Jamie later manipulating Willie into gutting his first deer by saying “Maybe your not quite old enough.”

·     Jamie’s mentioning his own father serving as the trigger for Willie’s fears about John bubbling to the surface.

·     John in bed. Sue me.  As his temperature fell, he actually kept getting more and more “hot.”

·     Every single moment when John and Claire were alone together. 

·     Claire’s subtle farewell wish to John that he find “satisfaction” (love) in the future.

·     The choreography of the bathtub scene was great – especially the moment when Jamie presented the ring.  

·     And look! We got the ring described in the book! Remember the ruckus on this board in season 1 when the “ugly” ring – the one made from the key to Lallybroch – was first seen?  Ah, good times.

 

THE BAD

When Murtagh took his leave from the dinner table I was confused.  I thought he was leaving entirely but that didn’t make sense given that it was night.  Now I assume he was just going outside to set up a campfire for him to sleep by.  Does that really make sense? In the books there are many occasions when Jamie & Claire’s cabin is wall-to-wall with sleeping visitors.  I’m going to hand-wave it away because one of the things that makes this episode soar are all the private conversations that happened between various combinations of the five main characters.  Each grouping opens up a new private topic to be addressed and those conversations are EVERYTHING.  So I’ll just ignore Murtagh’s plan to sleep rough right outside the cabin as well as Jamie and Claire building yet another fire outside the cabin for no apparent reason.

Jamie tells Claire (when they are building that unnecessary fire) “I’ve been dreaming of a moment alone with you for weeks.”  Wait, what?  They appear to have been alone at the cabin for a while.  Ian is gone when Murtagh arrives. So what “weeks” is Jamie talking about?  That “romantic” scene outside felt shoe-horned in and made me cringe.  I really hate it when this show makes me cringe.

Cringe #2 came when Jamie is bathing Claire and starts spouting drivel about being “jealous of the rain itself” while Claire questions whether his kisses will rain down “in a drizzle or a torrent.”  Ugh. The Jamie and Claire that live in my head don’t talk that way and, in my opinion, neither do the ones that live in the pages of the book.

 

THE UGLY

I cannot think of a single thing to list in this section and that is a first!

 

OTHER

I want to love John’s final line to Claire during their bed-side chat.  When he comments again on how startlingly forthright she is (after she makes clear that she knows he is in love with Jamie) she says “I was born this way.”  He quietly responds, “So was I.”  

I want to love that line because I love the way John’s homosexuality is portrayed. In the books he is strong, heroic, honorable, and gay.  It’s just part of who he is.  I love, love, LOVE that Diana has created this heroic character who just happens to be gay.  But, alas the line, “I was born this way,” spoken in this context, conjured up images of Lady Gaga in my mind and that took me out of the moment. Damn you Pop Culture!

I just wanted to respond to your last paragraph. It was very Lady Gaga aka Stephanie. I loved it. 

 

44 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I have no idea what this means nor why you quoted my entire post to say this.  Maybe you should edit your post so the quoted part only includes the part you are responding to.

@toolazy was just pointing out when the author of the series Diana G wrote Drums of Autumn (the book in which Season 4 is based) Stephanie, stage name Lady Gaga was only 10yrs old. 😋 

[Ziggy]

1 hour ago, Tanner said:

Mr Tanner said , "how very Lady Gaga."

That honestly never occurred to me until I came here and read everyone talking about it :-)

[toolazy]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

I have no idea what this means nor why you quoted my entire post to say this.  Maybe you should edit your post so the quoted part only includes the part you are responding t

I tried but I'm on my tablet. I'll edit next time I'm in front of my computer. And Stephanie is Lady Gaga's actual name. 

[Cdh20]

11 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Whoo hooo!  I loved it.  I'm posting without reading anyone's comments.  I just wanted to weigh in to register my happiness.

It's not perfect (more on that later) but there was SO MUCH TO LOVE in this episode -- both in what they kept from the book, what they changed, and how they went full circle to un-do a  prior change from season one (the ring.)

Now I'm off to watch it a second time with the closed captions on.  I love, love, LOVE David Berry as Lord John but I had a wee bit of trouble understanding him in a few moments.

Whoo hooo!

I need to put my captions on next time, because John was using words I’ve never heard of..

1 hour ago, Tanner said:

Mr Tanner said , "how very Lady Gaga."

My hubby had no funny remarks this week so I am guessing he thought this one was a snoozefest!

[ruby24]

Very talky episode. Based on the previews I'm wondering if they're going to change some of the order of events surrounding the Brianna/Stephen Bonnet stuff. Maybe that whole attack takes place on the boat to America instead of later on? But that would make it before she meets up with Roger again, which would be a problem for her not knowing who the father is (I can't imagine her wanting to have sex with Roger after being raped by Bonnet). Hmm.

I wonder how they're going to handle this, to be honest. I don't know if it's just me, but I always though Brianna's rape was one of the most disturbing passages in all the books, and it's hard for me to picture Sophie pulling that off, frankly. Also, I don't know if this is intentional, but I do feel like they're using Brianna very minimally (she basically hasn't been in three episodes in a row), so I wonder if that whole incident is going to be toned down or maybe even take place offscreen (I guess in the book it actually happens offscreen too, because we only find out later when Bree tells Claire what happened- but then it goes into graphic flashback).

[IntrovertGal]

14 hours ago, Ziggy said:

Love the part where Lord John calls Claire "devastatingly straightforward" and she says she was born that way, to which Lord John quietly responds, "So was I."  Oh the anguish!  What a fabulous character!

I really enjoyed this episode.  Loved seeing Jamie and William interacting and Claire and Lord John working through their insecurities about Jamie and each other.

I was really excited at the beginning when they showed the rattlesnake.  I didn't realize until much later that they had actually not included that scene.  I know they can't include everything, but I was a bit bummed.  I wonder why they chose to use it at the beginning.  It doesn't really make any sense on it's own.

Me too!  At first I really thought they were going to go there!  I remember being shocked when (in the show) Jamie told Claire about Willie.  It thought, no, they're not going to make another change, are they?  I'm glad Willie didn't believe him.  I thought that made more sense.

I totally agree! I really loved this episode. Lord John and David Berry make everything better. This is the first episode this season that I actually want to rewatch. The scenes between Claire and Lord John were fantastic and just full of so much pain. I especially loved the scene bolded above and I didn't think of Lady Gaga at all until coming here. David Berry expressed so much with that whispered "So was I", it broke my heart. I also liked that Lord John told Claire about the time when he could have had Jamie in return for looking after Willie; it's about time Claire knew about that, even if it was sort of a brutal way of finding out. I haven't read the fourth book yet (but don't mind being spoiled) so I don't know if Jamie ever told Claire about that in the book. Lord John confessing to Claire that he is still in love with Jamie, Claire confessing to Lord John that she was envious of their time together and the two of them reaching a sort of truce at the end and Claire wishing him love - all wonderful scenes that I look forward to rewatching. 

Jamie getting to spend some quality time with his son was great as well, even if Willie (sorry William) is a brat. The last scene with William looking back was lovely in giving Jamie some hope that he will see his son again.

Oh and I loved the romantic ending with the bath and Jamie giving Claire the new ring. This was not an action-packed episode but a rather quiet and character-driven one and personally I loved how all these interpersonal relationships got explored.

[LoveLeigh]

19 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I'm pleasantly surprised to see comments here about liking this episode... because I did not. I was bored, and I'm not a fan of Lord John or Willie. It's bad when I find myself hoping for a Brianna scene...

Also, what was with Willie's facial expressions? I found it interesting to bring up and include some of the privy scene because he looked like he had to go the entire episode. 

 

 

I hated this episode, in fact this entire season is going nowhere. OK at first I admired the slow quiet pace, but nothing is happening. Willie was so filled with anger, I get it. But the actor who played Willie is a lousy actor. He just overdid it with the twisted facial expressions. 

I am extremely disappointed in this season and find the episodes a chore to watch. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by DakotaLavender

[Nidratime]

Quote

Very talky episode. Based on the previews I'm wondering if they're going to change some of the order of events surrounding the Brianna/Stephen Bonnet stuff. Maybe that whole attack takes place on the boat to America instead of later on? But that would make it before she meets up with Roger again, which would be a problem for her not knowing who the father is (I can't imagine her wanting to have sex with Roger after being raped by Bonnet). Hmm.

Of course, I could be wrong, but I think that preview is being purposefully misleading. I've noticed, when it comes to the Brianna (and Roger) story line, they've been far more circumspect than they have been for, for instance, with the story line involving Willie or Lord John showing up at Fraser's Ridge. I think that's because the former story line is far more impactful to the second part of the season and so they don't want to be straightforward, or even, say much at all. You even get a hint of that in Sam's tweet about last night's episode. See what I bolded below.
 

Quote

 

@SamHeughan
One of my favourite episodes this season... and the beginning of the madness! Hope you enjoy! #BloodOfMyBlood @Outlander_STARZ

 

[Haleth]

I was confused that the title scene showed the snake in the privy.  It's been so long since I read the book I can't really remember what happened there, but I know it was something about Ian and Willy.  And then... nothing more in the show.  It was for fan service only. 

15 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I wonder what the non-readers will think. I wonder if they will think the snake in the privy is a metaphor for hidden danger – some vague reference to the simmering animosity between Murtagh and Lord John and the fine line that Jamie is trying to tread between their opposing points of view.

Ha!  Sometimes a snake is just a snake.

Great scene with Claire and Lord John in his sickbed.  I'm glad the two actors have chemistry together and look forward to their future encounters.  Born that way indeed.  (I did think of Gaga, but the line is poignant anyway.)

Everything is better with Murtagh.  I hope he's still there to meet Bree.

[Juliegirlj]

I found Willy’s facial grimaces so distracting. The actor does seem to resemble “Jamie”, but I started wondering if something was wrong with the kid because his face was so distorted. 

[Lady Iris]

I've only read the first book so maybe its addressed somewhere but at this point, why not tell William that Jamie is his real father and let him be raised by him and Claire?

[aemom]

7 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

I've only read the first book so maybe its addressed somewhere but at this point, why not tell William that Jamie is his real father and let him be raised by him and Claire?

Because as it stands now, William is the son of a lord and has inherited the estate.  Isobel was William's aunt and Isobel was in love with Lord John.  John married her because he was fond of her and together they were raising William after both his parents died.

To turn around now and say that William is actually Jamie's son would label him a bastard and he'd be a social outcast, as opposed to the young lord that he is.  Social position was everything in those days.

[GHScorpiosRule]

14 minutes ago, Lady Iris said:

I've only read the first book so maybe its addressed somewhere but at this point, why not tell William that Jamie is his real father and let him be raised by him and Claire?

 

4 minutes ago, AEMom said:

Because as it stands now, William is the son of a lord and has inherited the estate.  Isobel was William's aunt and Isobel was in love with Lord John.  John married her because he was fond of her and together they were raising William after both his parents died.

To turn around now and say that William is actually Jamie's son would label him a bastard and he'd be a social outcast, as opposed to the young lord that he is.  Social position was everything in those days.

Not only that, but because legally, he's known as Elsmere's son. And Lord John and Isobel raised Willie at Jamie's request that he raise him.

[Nidratime]

Quote

Because as it stands now, William is the son of a lord and has inherited the estate.  Isobel was William's aunt and Isobel was in love with Lord John.  John married her because he was fond of her and together they were raising William after both his parents died.

He's actually the heir of two estates: his mother's and his non-biological father's. If it came out who William really was, he would definitely lose his father's estate and potentially his mother's as well, but I don't know about that since he *is* her son even though not with her husband. Geneva had no other children, obviously, Isobel had no children, and they had no other siblings.

[Lady Iris]

Ahh, thank you all. I didn't think of any of that.

[CountryGirl]

While I loved last week's episode more than a wee bit better, there was still a lot to enjoy last night, particularly very-easy-on-the-eyes Lord John Grey.

 

The resemblance between pre-teen Willie and Jamie was striking (sans the constant, but in keeping with his little lord raising, pout). I think they even had the same much-hated wig. I loved that Willie remembered him ("Mac?" squee!!!) and that they got to spend some time alone together, but it's verra bittersweet knowing Willie doesn't know the truth and that he'll soon leave with the father who has raised him.

Poor Jamie - the heartbreak and longing he must feel, never truly knowing what it is to be a father. Faith died at birth, he's never met Bree, and even though he will meet her again someday and Willie will learn the truth, it can never replace all those lost years nor completely remove the pain they caused.

The shared horseback ride also reminded me of this:

Even more so when Lord John and Willie, ahem, William, rode away.

Nicely done once again with the parallels, show.

It was nice to see LJG and Jamie playing chess again and resuming their easy friendship.

The sparring - and not just verbal - between Claire and LJG was so fun to watch.

And yet sad all the same, but I appreciated that they found a moment of connection over their unfilled marriages (his with Isobel - whom I loved from S3 and hers with Frank).

I loved Claire's new ring. I know the other one was the original wedding ring and the key to Lallybroch, blahdeblahblah, but come on, it was just very ok.

The bathtub scene had me longing for Jamie to bathe me...oh, did I say that out loud?

I, too, had the same, dry off first, Claire! when Jamie laid her down on the sheets. Or better yet, let Jamie do it for you.

And WTF to cutting the scene off so soon. I realize the show is so much more than that but come on, another minute wouldn't have killed them.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, CountryGirl said:

The bathtub scene had me longing for Jamie to bathe me...oh, did I say that out loud?

I, too, had the same, dry off first, Claire! when Jamie laid her down on the sheets. Or better yet, let Jamie do it for you.

And WTF to cutting the scene off so soon. I realize the show is so much more than that but come on, another minute wouldn't have killed them.

I ken, reiyght?! Och, but tha' horrrrrid wig!!!!!

[toolazy]

1 hour ago, AEMom said:

Because as it stands now, William is the son of a lord and has inherited the estate.  Isobel was William's aunt and Isobel was in love with Lord John.  John married her because he was fond of her and together they were raising William after both his parents died.

To turn around now and say that William is actually Jamie's son would label him a bastard and he'd be a social outcast, as opposed to the young lord that he is.  Social position was everything in those days.

Not to mention boatloads of money.

[aemom]

Curious if anybody watched this episode on the W network? 

I didn't get any previouslies or the credits or anything with a privy scene that you are all talking about.  The first thing I saw was John outside Jamie's house and them talking.  I definitely watched from the beginning of the taping.

Did I miss anything really important?

[iMonrey]

Quote

 Non- readers have no idea why a snake was in the privy in that opening scene. I was very much looking forward to seeing that acted out, dammit! 

There have been several references to this. Since this is the book-talk thread, would someone kindly explain this scene in the book?

I thought this was a very good episode overall (not a book reader here, obviously - beyond the first one, anyway). I appreciate these quieter moments where Jamie and Claire aren't being struck down by the latest tragedy du jour. My one complaint is that I really didn't think the kid playing William looked anything like Sam Heughan. At all. Also, I'm not really distracted or bothered by the wig. It did look pretty bad in the opening scene where he was chopping wood and his hair wasn't tied back, but once it gets tied back I think it looks fine.

I'm hoping someone here can also help me remember what Lord John was referring to when he told Claire that Jamie once offered himself to him. I vaguely remember this but not the circumstances - what was Jamie asking for in return at that time?

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I'm hoping someone here can also help me remember what Lord John was referring to when he told Claire that Jamie once offered himself to him. I vaguely remember this but not the circumstances - what was Jamie asking for in return at that time?

Jamie offered himself to Lord John in payment for Lord John raising Willie as his son. He did this knowing Lord John was attracted to him (he had made a pass at him at Ardsmuir). 

I can't recall the specifics of the snake in the privy. But it was a hilarious moment in the buik.

Edited December 10, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[Cdh20]

7 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

There have been several references to this. Since this is the book-talk thread, would someone kindly explain this scene in the book?

I thought this was a very good episode overall (not a book reader here, obviously - beyond the first one, anyway). I appreciate these quieter moments where Jamie and Claire aren't being struck down by the latest tragedy du jour. My one complaint is that I really didn't think the kid playing William looked anything like Sam Heughan. At all. Also, I'm not really distracted or bothered by the wig. It did look pretty bad in the opening scene where he was chopping wood and his hair wasn't tied back, but once it gets tied back I think it looks fine.

I'm hoping someone here can also help me remember what Lord John was referring to when he told Claire that Jamie once offered himself to him. I vaguely remember this but not the circumstances - what was Jamie asking for in return at that time?

When Jamie was leaving Helwater, he asked John to look out for Willie & be a role model, & he offered himself up sexually to John. John refused  & turns out he  was going to marry Isabel (Willie's aunt), & they were going to rasie him anyway! 

 

And I think the exact opposite about the hair-it's a million times better down, than tied back-that's when the bangs look so bad.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Cdh20
adding a thought

[Ziggy]

11 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I'm hoping someone here can also help me remember what Lord John was referring to when he told Claire that Jamie once offered himself to him. I vaguely remember this but not the circumstances - what was Jamie asking for in return at that time?

 

6 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Jamie offered himself to Lord John in payment for Lord John raising Willie as his son. He did this knowing Lord John was attracted to him (he had made a pass at him at Ardsmuir).

Did they show that in Season 3? 

I did not reread Drums of Autumn, so it's all blurry.  Actually, Voyager is blurry, too.  If I remember correctly, this is one of those scenes that the readers learned of in a flashback.  I don't think we learned about it in Voyager, but I could definitely be wrong.

One thing that really fascinates me in these books is how so much is told in flashbacks.  There are just so many things that we are told about later, even though they happened during the time of Voyager or Drums of Autumn.  It messes with my brain!