S07.E09: Elseworlds Part 2

[BkWurm1]

1 minute ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Did MG forget that Diggle showed up in the prior episode of Elseworlds, or did Barry and Oliver conveniently forget to tell him at the time that they had swapped bodies? I'm already not into this episode, and I'm not even 3 minutes in.

They must have not told him I guess.  

[bettername2come]

4 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Did MG forget that Diggle showed up in the prior episode of Elseworlds, or did Barry and Oliver conveniently forget to tell him at the time that they had swapped bodies? I'm already not into this episode, and I'm not even 3 minutes in.

Oliver ran to Star City and saved Diggle, then he and Barry went back to STAR Labs. We never saw them tell Diggle anything, presumably because they thought STAR Labs would have the solution instead.

[JJ928]

I went into this ep with an open mind, willing to give Ruby a chance... but my god her acting has not improved and the writing for Kate was mediocre, and needed a more dynamic actress to give it some nuance. Which is sad because Batwoman from what I've read is awesome, is it too late to recast? So far, Elseworlds has been kinda boring imo. I know people are excited for the Crisis tease, but if the crossovers continue like this one I'd rather pass. All-in-all, I wanted to like it but I'm just meh. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Curtis was unnecessary. 

Always and forever.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Soulfire said:

Oliver: "We're going to be okay. People change, Felicity. It means we're growing; it means we're evolving. Except for one thing, one thing that will not change is how I feel about you. Love is too small a word. And no matter who you are and what you become, no matter who I am or what I become -- you will always be... you will always be the love of my life. People change. That never will."

It occured to me that while Felicity had accepted intellectually that the swap had happened, she really had her big moment of recognition of the person she saw as Barry really being her husband when he broke out the big beautiful "I'll love you forever" speech. That's when she reached for him and said his name and kissed him.   I LOVE how in show canon it's become, Oliver's absolute certainty and almost poetic expression of his unending and exclusive love for Felicity.   

[Twilight Man]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

It had plenty of fun easter eggs though.

 

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

I have to admit that the ending with the Trigger Twins did intrigue me for some reason.

The Trigger Twins - identical twin criminals who were a thorn in AzBats (Jean-Paul Valley Batman (long story)) side during the 90's.

 

1 hour ago, mxc90 said:

Batwoman figures out Supergirl/Kara Danvers in minutes with few clues but Lena is still clueless?!

You don't need to be the "World's Greatest Detective" to figure out that the blonde who was with Oliver Queen

and the blonde who was with The Green Arrow are the same person.

[Mellowyellow]

6 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I LOVE how in show canon it's become, Oliver's absolute certainty and almost poetic expression of his unending and exclusive love for Felicity.   

Oliver Queen, adorable but occasionally dim pine tree, has better declarations of love and speeches for Felicity than the Fandom's best writers! 

Edited December 11, 2018 by Mellowyellow

[KillahBee007]

I liked this episode for the most part. Still a slog and a bit ridiculous. If that’s it with Batwoman, eh. I wanted to like her but I just shrugged. Amazing how Arrow doesn’t shade Barry. Funny how that works. 

 

The Olicity speech was GREAT. They still have some issues to work on but yep, they are on the same page. I’m fine with it and I look forward to more of them in the second half. Overall still not impressed with this crossover. 

[Lantern7]

I'm not feeling too nickpicky about "Elseworlds." Basically, we could get an hour of Melissa, Grant and Stephen riffing off each other. Why bring in other characters? You know, like fucking Ricardo Fucking Diaz? And he comes at a point where Oliver can't lobotomize him with a vibrating hand.

Wait, so Caitlin/Killer Frost was fighting Nora Fries? That's the third Nora in the Arrowverse. Will Black Lightning bring us a fourth?

I like the idea that Gotham City is the hellhole nobody has ever talked about, and Oliver not buying into the "urban legend." But this Gotham City ain't as fun as the one from Gotham. For God's sake, one antagonist wielding a sword was blown up with a rocket launcher. And it was glorious. Basically, Gotham veered into bugfuckery before Legends of Tomorrow.

Poor Cisco getting run over by . . . I want to say Psycho Pirate? I saw him and Caitlin roll into ARGUS, I figured they were there to shame the hell out of poor Curtis.

Is that all we get from Batwoman? Given the hype and the backlash regarding Ruby Rose, I would have expected more. My biggest nitpick (aside from Bruce Wayne up and leaving) would be we didn't have a Batwoman with short red hair wearing a long-haired red wig. That just seemed funny to me. Ruby does have the intense look down, though.

Was . . . was Barry-90's lightning bolt always that weird-looking? It just seemed so off. I'm hoping he gets a proper sendoff tomorrow. Maybe he married Tina McGee (there was no Iris) and had a bunch of superspeedy kids.

I didn't know about EoWells and Malcolm coming back as the (wrong) hallucinations for our heroes. "Is this Malcolm? You were right, Ollie! He is a handsome man!!" And then Ollie and Flash fought like they were in one of the Injustice video games. Maybe a South Park fan can score that scene to "Let's Fighting Love."

Edited December 11, 2018 by Lantern7

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

You know, like fucking Ricard Fucking Diaz?

He is a disease that has no cure. 

[BadArcher]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

It had plenty of fun easter eggs though

The “Bard” from the 1966 Batman series made an appearance.  

[lemotomato]

Looks like everyone trended tonight:

[scarynikki12]

7 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Poor Cisco getting run over by . . . I want to say Psycho Pirate?

I think so.  The mask looked like Psycho Pirate at least.

[popgoesculture]

24 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I was not a fan of how fine everyone was with lying to Felicity.  Not shocked by Dig's or Curtis just going along with it but Barry, you should have spoken up against it at the very least.  I also don't really see it in Oliver's character to not tell her but I'll let it pass since he was already mixed up in how he was reacting last week and he is very good at compartmentalizing (except if she found out and of COURSE she's going to find out, he had to know it would hurt her and that's one thing I don't think he actively tries to do)

I couldn't handle everyone lying to Felicity, or Oliver deciding the only course of action was to keep things from her AGAIN. He is so dumb and has no ability to learn (or the show won't let him). I was actually really infuriated by it, and by Digg and Curtis backing Oliver up on this. It was insane. Felicity is also their friend, and why does it seem they never seem to consider her that way?? Instead, they all follow Oliver's lead and hide/act awkward like Felicity is going to blow up. And Iris didn't call Felicity and give her a heads up that their husbands switched? I actually almost missed Laurel. LAUREL. That's how bad it is! Her only friend is alt-Laurel! 

I think I'm feeling the opposite of most of everyone posting so far. I wish I could say the final scenes between Oliver and Felicity made up for it, but it didn't, not for me. Felicity only got to say one word while Oliver gave her the big declaration of love... and she's supposed to forgive him for the nine thousandth time? Felicity's question still stands: what is love without respect or trust? The kiss just didn't seem earned. 

[Cthulhudrew]

So much of this is just underwhelming.

More constant uncharacteristic quipping, particularly of the self-referential kind. 

Yes, let's not tell Felicity anything, because we really haven't beaten the lying to Felicity horse to death yet. Has it happened often enough that we can now consider it a trope?

So there is a Bruce Wayne on Kara's earth, and he's "frenemies" with Clark, and there's one on Earth-1, but there are apparently no analogues of Kara and Clark on Earth-1 and no Oliver and Barry on Earth-38? Because??

Someone else pointed out how terrible Ruby Rose's acting is, and the writing for her is also terrible. And why does Wayne Enterprises look like it survived an apocalypse? Graffiti I could (maybe) see, but plants growing all over the place? Unless it recently suffered an attack by Poison Ivy, that makes no sense. Even less sense considering it is supposed to be "under renovation" according to Kate.

Why do our intrepid heroes need to embark on a convoluted undercover mission to explore Arkham? Couldn't OliverFlash have just quickly supersped through the building to find the book? Couldn't Kara just have used x-ray vision from outside? And why is the asylum security guy calling "Barry" Officer Allen? And why is there an alarm button in Arkham that also happens to release all the inmates?

And if Oliver and Barry only switched identities but not brains, then why would Merlyn be Barry's greatest fear and Thawne be Oliver's? 

I clearly need to turn my brain off to enjoy this.

ETA: I did like the Psycho Pirate staring into the camera and breaking the fourth wall (at least seemingly).

Edited December 11, 2018 by Cthulhudrew

[Trini]

13 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Was . . . was Barry-90's lightning bolt always that weird-looking? It just seemed so off. I'm hoping he gets a proper sendoff tomorrow. Maybe he married Tina McGee (there was no Iris) and had a bunch of superspeedy kids.

 

Yeppers:

[apinknightmare]

He looks like that buff kangaroo that just died. 

[Simba122504]

1 hour ago, RandomWatcher said:

Diggle is a Green Lantern on Earth 90. Though he's probably Stewart there.

I was wondering the same thing?  *I love it when shows make fun of themselves/go full on meta. That alone may make this my favorite crossover so far. Flaws included. It's so damn fun*

[Cthulhudrew]

Just me, or is Arkham the DEO headquarters?

[KenyaJ]

39 minutes ago, KillahBee007 said:

Amazing how Arrow doesn’t shade Barry.

Even though I (and David Ramsey) will never forgive him for taking Sara Diggle away from us, I'm glad the Arrow writers never disparage him. It's just not in Oliver, Felicity or Diggle's nature to rag on their friends, thankfully. Although I suspect that if NTA knew Barry better, they would probably shade him, because they're awful human beings and petty af.

The Olicity fandom strips music out of scenes better than anyone I know, LOL. It's a good thing, because you can hear Oliver's barely audible "You know," after telling Felicity "Love is too small a word." And you can also hear Felicity's "Oliver. Hi," just before she kisses him.  😍 

Edited December 11, 2018 by KenyaJ

[Writing Wrongs]

It's seemed like they were focusing on Barry really getting into being the Green Arrow. All his angry looks and upturned collar.

[Trini]

16 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

And why is the asylum security guy calling "Barry" Officer Allen?

Well, Barry does work for CCPD; pretty sure he's had the title 'officer' before.  I assume that he was using his police connection to get access to the facility.

 

Quote

And why is there an alarm button in Arkham that also happens to release all the inmates?

Well, that's when I knew that Deegan guy was just evil instead of just crazy!

 

Quote

I clearly need to turn my brain off to enjoy this.

It's the only way to go.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Trini

[Chaser]

5 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

Even though I (and David Ramsey) will never forgive him for taking Sara Diggle away from us, I'm glad the Arrow writers never disparage him. It's just not in Oliver, Felicity or Diggle's nature to rag on their friends, thankfully. Although I suspect that if NTA knew Barry better, they would probably shade him, because they're awful human beings and petty af.

The Olicity fandom strips music out of scenes better than anyone I know, LOL. It's a good thing, because you can hear Oliver's barely audible "You know," after telling Felicity "Love isn't a strong enough word." And you can also hear Felicity's "Oliver. Hi," just before she kisses him.  😍 

Agreed. I don’t want Arrow to start taking potshots at Barry. Unless it’s over Sara. 

Speaking of NTA, I really loved the lack of Dinah. It was beautiful. If we had to have a newbie, I would have preferred Rene. He wouldn’t have done anything but he’s automatically better than Curtis. 

I love that they strip the BG music, it adds such realism. I mean those sex scene(s) are wow.

[Cthulhudrew]

5 minutes ago, Trini said:

Well, Barry does work for CCPD; pretty sure he's had the title 'officer' before.  I assume that he was using his police connection to get access to the facility.

I didn't think he had a police rank, though maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention. I thought he was just a civilian CSI, not an officer.

[Trisha]

13 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

The Olicity fandom strips music out of scenes better than anyone I know, LOL. It's a good thing, because you can hear Oliver's barely audible "You know," after telling Felicity "Love isn't a strong enough word." And you can also hear Felicity's "Oliver. Hi," just before she kisses him. 

It also sounds like he says “so stupid” after “maybe it’s easier for you hear this from Barry Allen,” which I kind of love.

Overall I think I actually liked part 1 better than part 2. The character interactions felt more on point in this one, but part 1 flew by and this whole thing really dragged until the last 10 minutes. I thought Ruby Rose did a good job as Kate, but as soon as she suited up she became way too stiff. I’m not sure if this bodes well for her getting her own series.

[ParadoxLost]

22 minutes ago, KillahBee007 said:

Amazing how Arrow doesn’t shade Barry. Funny how that works. 

I'm not kidding about this.  During the episode, I was kind of shocked that Arrow shaded Oliver as bad or worse than The Flash did. so I give The Flash a pass on that because his own show doesn't treat Oliver any better.

17 minutes ago, popgoesculture said:

I couldn't handle everyone lying to Felicity, or Oliver deciding the only course of action was to keep things from her AGAIN. He is so dumb and has no ability to learn (or the show won't let him). I was actually really infuriated by it, and by Digg and Curtis backing Oliver up on this. It was insane. Felicity is also their friend, and why does it seem they never seem to consider her that way?? Instead, they all follow Oliver's lead and hide/act awkward like Felicity is going to blow up. And Iris didn't call Felicity and give her a heads up that their husbands switched? I actually almost missed Laurel. LAUREL. That's how bad it is! Her only friend is alt-Laurel! 

I think I'm feeling the opposite of most of everyone posting so far. I wish I could say the final scenes between Oliver and Felicity made up for it, but it didn't, not for me. Felicity only got to say one word while Oliver gave her the big declaration of love... and she's supposed to forgive him for the nine thousandth time? Felicity's question still stands: what is love without respect or trust? The kiss just didn't seem earned. 

I agree with you.  This was a huge misstep for me.  With so many of Olicity's past issues being about lying/trust/respect, there was no good reason for Oliver to hide that they were dealing with Freaky Friday here.  None.  No upside at all.  It made no sense.   I think the show just didn't want to be repetitive since Barry/Oliver/Iris had just played out that scenario on the Flash.  And that isn't a good enough reason.

I wish they would stop bothering to force the crossovers to be episodes of each show by swapping out which characters support the action.  If they had Felicity in p1 finding out about the switch around the same time Iris did, I think that would have done a lot to fix the issues in the episode.

[Cthulhudrew]

1 hour ago, Writing Wrongs said:

There was another one that I didn't recognize. Was the guy in the gold mask supposed to be someone from the comics?

I believe it was Psycho Pirate.

[apinknightmare]

11 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I'm not kidding about this.  During the episode, I was kind of shocked that Arrow shaded Oliver as bad or worse than The Flash did. so I give The Flash a pass on that because his own show doesn't treat Oliver any better.

Except there's nothing wrong with calling him out for his past actual behavior. He WAS a dirtbag! If The Flash was always calling out that behavior or telling Barry not to become THAT guy, I'd agree. He was awful! But this guy's been on a nearly 12 year journey since then. He's changed and grown and that's the guy Flash keeps insulting.

[lemotomato]

Didn't one of the reviewers who screened the first two parts say that Gary from LoT was in the crossovers? I didn't see him.

[quarks]

Well, apart from the reappearance of Arrow's favorite warehouse, which I guess was inevitable, that was pretty fun.

Good things:

1. Letting Barry give the "My name is Oliver Queen!" bit? I laughed.

2. Oliver's irritation with Gotham and his refusal to believe that Batman is a thing. I also laughed.

3. This episode remembering that Oliver Queen is famous and recognizable as the Green Arrow immediately, and everyone reacting to that.

4. Not-Laurel telling the Gotham cops to leave the three of them in jail. Hee. Nice follow-up from last week, too - it was just the sort of petty revenge I could see her taking.

5. The Arkham Asylum receptionist being all whatever about superpowers at this point. That was great. Can we have her on the Batwoman show?

6. Liked that they are letting Kara explore the consequences of that secret identity decision with people who also have secret identities - and letting her see what's happening to Oliver now that he no longer has a secret identity.

7. The Barry/Oliver/Malcolm/Original Evil Wells fight. Even with the more than occasionally visible stunt doubles. Barrowman is always fun.

8. Oliver not letting Diaz monologue all that long.

9. World's Finest reference!

10. John Wesley Shipp back as 1990s Barry Allen Flash, with his theme music! Saying hi to John!

11. Amell and Gustin getting to play comedy. More of this on both shows, please.

12. All of the various names in Arkham Asylum!

13. The final Olicity scene. Awww.

14. Legends of Tomorrow's cheery explanation of why they weren't in the episode. Ok, that wasn't actually in the episode but it's sorta related so I'm putting it here. 

15. Evil Superman!

Questionable things:

1. I think I need to give Ruby Rose a bit of a pass here, since I'm going to guess that "try to channel Christian Bale" was not a choice of anyone directly working on the show. (I know I've given Bamford a hard time in the past, but I genuinely can't see that as one of his directorial choices.) So I'm willing to see what she does with this once everyone has the chance to review and reconsider the character. This wasn't a bad start - the costume and wig worked better on screen than I thought they would, and the concept is fine. 

2. When the hell did Oliver have the time to hook up with the reporter? This had to have been back in season two, since he wasn't working for Queen Consolidated before that - that was even part of the plot, Arrow. And fairly early on, since he and Sara hooked up in February and they didn't break up until after he and Moira lost Queen Consolidated and everything else. So...between October/January? Before the trip to Russia, when he was trying to prove that he was the sort of person who showed up to the office and didn't run off at night or make unauthorized trips to Russia, or after Russia, when Felicity asked him why he hooked up with Isabel? Or when Felicity was off visiting Barry in his coma? No wonder Oliver couldn't remember.

3. I know they didn't want to bring that many Flash characters over, but still - given that Felicity had been talking to Iris about Oliver in the last episode, I would have preferred to see her follow-up that conversation with Iris, not with Caitlin. I like Caitlin; I just think that the scene would have had more weight with Iris. 

4. Count me in as not buying that Bruce Wayne took off because of crime in Gotham City. I did catch that he took off shortly after Ra's Al Ghul died in Star City and after Nyssa disbanded the League of Assassins. HMM.

And there's a Batman on Supergirl's world, too? HMM HMM HMM.

5. Are we really calling Felicity Barry's ex? I know she was interested in him and he was sorta interested in her, but one date and one kiss doesn't exactly put that into high romance territory. Especially since we've seen both of them actually date and sleep with other people.

6. This probably needs to be addressed over on Supergirl, but if Kara can see through Batwoman's mask, why can't she see through masks on her own show?

7. I know the answer is "they couldn't book the actor/weren't willing to pay the actor given that Tom Cavanagh was right there" and I know Barry just ran into Evil Wells last week, but still, Barry does know what Reverse-Flash really looks like, so why not try to get Matt Letscher back?

Bad things:

1. Seriously, Arrow, there's no reason to mention the cheating on his girlfriend with her sister ever again. Let us move on. Even I don't dislike Original Laurel that much.

2. Barry, Oliver. Yeah, you had problems getting Team Flash to believe you, but you had Curtis and Diggle believing you immediately, so, bring Felicity into it.

3. Nice of the Evil Red Lightning to guide Cisco and Caitlin right to Argus, wasn't it? And even nicer for Argus to just LET THEM IN. You're a semi-secret government agency building killer robots, Argus, and you're going to let the two people who just fought with your killer robot the day before right in? What was that?

4. Iris, last night: Oliver, Felicity was furious and hurt that you didn't tell her some kinda important things and that's why your relationship is in trouble and also you have some major anger issues. And she's particularly upset because you keep not telling her important things. It's a huge character flaw.

Oliver, tonight: So, I think the best thing to do is to not tell Felicity some kinda important things.

Oliver, this is why everyone yells at you, and Arrow, this is what we call writing to plot instead of character.

5. Diaz is just awful in every universe.

6. Sound editing. It's a thing, and it's a thing that Arrow, surprisingly enough for a stunt show, doesn't seem to want to have. I realize that my broadcast was off, but that doesn't account for the at least ten effects noises landing at the wrong time, plus the difficulties hearing dialogue at points.  Particularly noticeable since the sound editing for Legends of Tomorrow was clear, and that was with them having to do some audio cleanup with that cat.

7. I honestly didn't know whether to cry or to laugh when parts of the old QC/PT/Oliver's mayoral office showed up in Kate Kane's office. 

8. On a related note, that's about the 11th time we've seen that staircase on these shows. It's a great staircase and I see why you like filming there but continuing to use it as a stunt set just emphasizes that it's about the 11th time we've seen that staircase. Surely Vancouver has other staircases?

9. Arrowverse shows, you are aware that usually when a car or a van hits a person it....causes damage, right? Really! I promise you this is an actual thing unless the car is hitting Supergirl. Since in this case the van hit Cisco, he should have been in rather severe pain.

10. Speaking of severe pain, Bamford, must you try to give us vertigo and headaches when you direct?

11. AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGHHHHHHHHHHH EITHER GIVE ME GREEN LANTERN OR STOP TEASING HIM LIKE THIS, BERLANTI! 

(Though, honestly? Having Green Lantern turn out to be Oliver's best friend? Yep. I am here for this. So maybe I should stop calling this a bad thing.)

[ParadoxLost]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

Except there's nothing wrong with calling him out for his past actual behavior. He WAS a dirtbag! If The Flash was always calling out that behavior or telling Barry not to become THAT guy, I'd agree. He was awful! But this guy's been on a nearly 12 year journey since then. He's changed and grown and that's the guy Flash keeps insulting.

Huh?  I didn't really catch any difference in how Flash and Arrow were treating Oliver's character over the last two nights.  And neither were particularly fair. YVMV.

[tennisgurl]

Seeing Psycho Pirate with his mask, and even breaking the fourth wall, was pretty cool, and makes me excited about what could happen later. Really, thats how a lot of this episode felt to me. Setting up for stuff that will probably be cool...later. Nora Fries showing up was kind of random, and I was hoping for more, but the Arkham stuff was alright. It was cool to see her, and I thought Mrs. SA did alright, and I loved the receptionist who gives zero fucks about seeing a person with powers. I guess when you live in Gotham, you just learn to roll with it. But dang, I really do wish we could see some of the John Dee from the early Sandman story where she showed up. Now that was a scary ass villain. Also, I 

Could we get less contrived drama, and more multiverse, show?! Its like they keep teasing us with a crossover we want to happen, but are giving us a bunch of random padding instead! Give me 90s flash for more than two seconds! Give me John as Green Lantern! Give me a universe where Olicity spends their time running a foster home for kittens and puppies! Give me that, and not a bunch of random episodic stuff! 

Of course, we just HAVE to have Mumbles and Curtis around, two of the Arrowverses greatest annoyances. Reminding us that there is a reason that Guggie is locked up in Arkham. 

[Diapason Untuned]

I died when I saw that plaque with Guggie's name on it. That's how you can tell they're having real fun with this.

I'm liking the banter between Kara, Oliver and Barry a lot. An ensemble show with all three of them would be great.

Gotham was..something. I can only imagine how it'll work on Batwoman.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Diapason Untuned

[insomniadreams88]

I seriously can’t get over the fact that Iris didn’t believe Oliver and Barry in yesterday’s episode, even as Oliver asked about Barry in the first scene and when they were telling her what happened, to the point that she helped drug/lock them up. 

Then in this episode, what, a day later, Caitlin and Cisco are going, “she totally knew!”

Meanwhile, I’m pretty sure ARGUS was the first time Felicity saw (or talked to) “Oliver” and “Barry” and that was for what 30 seconds? 

That part was just stupid. 

Also still mad Diggle and Curtis were totally fine with lying to Felicity since I think Arrow still wants us to think they’re two of her closest “friends.” (I can never tell, really.)

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Huh?  I didn't really catch any difference in how Flash and Arrow were treating Oliver's character over the last two nights.  And neither were particularly fair. YVMV.

The Flash has repeatedly bashed Oliver as a person as he exists in current time, despite his efforts and success in changing for the better. 

Tonight on Arrow I saw him being razzed about shitty things he's done in the past that were definitely undesirable and awful. That seems more fair to me than what went on last night, but - to quote you - YMMV.

[KillahBee007]

25 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I'm not kidding about this.  During the episode, I was kind of shocked that Arrow shaded Oliver as bad or worse than The Flash did. so I give The Flash a pass on that because his own show doesn't treat Oliver any better.

That also gave me pause but I know Guggs had a hand in this and he has a thing about showing Oliver in a bad light so I wasn’t surprised. I won’t give Flash a pass on it though because it’s the same schtick every crossover.  Anywho...

Ciricling back to the Olicity portion, they still have issues to work out and the not telling Felicity schtick is old too. However, I’m fine with what we got. I have a much better feeling going into the hiatus.  I can appreciate that finally they are addressing Felicity’s issues in the prior episode and this one. 

Diaz still sucks in any reality.

[Trini]

14 minutes ago, quarks said:

And there's a Batman on Supergirl's world, too? HMM HMM HMM.

Batman has been referenced more than once previously on Supergirl. Not directly, but it's not really new info. That's why I was hoping Batwoman would be on Earth-38.

[DavidJSnyder]

If Batman has been gone for three years, is Batwoman the old foe in Gotham who sent Talia to prison?

[quarks]

2 minutes ago, DavidJSnyder said:

If Batman has been gone for three years, is Batwoman the old foe in Gotham who sent Talia to prison?

That crossed my mind too!

I really think Oliver should have spent more time gossiping with Talia in prison. Gossip is good, Oliver! It helps answer important questions like these!

[BkWurm1]

35 minutes ago, popgoesculture said:

I couldn't handle everyone lying to Felicity, or Oliver deciding the only course of action was to keep things from her AGAIN. He is so dumb and has no ability to learn (or the show won't let him). I was actually really infuriated by it, and by Digg and Curtis backing Oliver up on this. It was insane. Felicity is also their friend, and why does it seem they never seem to consider her that way?? Instead, they all follow Oliver's lead and hide/act awkward like Felicity is going to blow up. And Iris didn't call Felicity and give her a heads up that their husbands switched? I actually almost missed Laurel. LAUREL. That's how bad it is! Her only friend is alt-Laurel! 

 

When they called DA Laurel Lance to get them all out of jail and she let them rot, I seriously wondered if Felicity had confided in her what had happened and she was enacting some payback.  Lol.  That's how bad's it's gotten.  I'm assuming Laurel WOULD stand up for her.  (I actually don't think Felicity would have called her and Laurel is just supposed to be messing with them for no reason but if Laurel did find out, it feels in character)

Quote

I think I'm feeling the opposite of most of everyone posting so far. I wish I could say the final scenes between Oliver and Felicity made up for it, but it didn't, not for me. Felicity only got to say one word while Oliver gave her the big declaration of love... and she's supposed to forgive him for the nine thousandth time? Felicity's question still stands: what is love without respect or trust? The kiss just didn't seem earned.

 

I was ok with Felicity not saying anything more on the subject of trust and respect because that really wasn't what their current issue between them was.  Oliver not telling her things is an on-going thing they do need to still work on and address but that's not something solved in a snap and Felicity knew that before he got of prison and it wasn't actually what was coming between them.  The consequences of him making his choice and how it changed her was the issue, or rather how Oliver was reacting to it changing her.  I think Oliver's reaction made her incredibly insecure and afraid he wouldn't be able to handle how she'd changed. 

This time Oliver is not just saying, "How can we fix this?" Which she still took as how can he fix her, a fix she wasn't open to, but this time Oliver acknowledges they will change and grow the rest of their lives but nothing will shake his love for her.  And that's what i think Felicity needed at the moment more than solving all of their issues in that moment.  She knew he loved her but she seemed afraid he wouldn't keep loving the new her, even if she knew that was a crazy thing to be afraid of.  So Oliver spelling it out and telling her basically he wasn't going anywhere no matter what, that was enough to earn that kiss and put the worst of the tension between them away.  

Oliver not telling her about the swap was probably him shutting down and avoiding the emotional conversation that would be required to prove he was who he said he was. Maybe he was even afraid with Felicity upset with him, he wouldn't be able to convince her, but most likely he was just shutting down those emotions and fears until they got reality back and didn't want to take them out of the box at that time.  

 I don't think he really was trying to exclude her so much as he wasn't ready to talk about the bigger issue which was his freakout over her changing and Felicity's freakout over his freakout. It's not the same circumstance as when this kind of thing happens. (He probably thought he found a loop hole to promising to never lie to her again.)    Still, it didn't take much to get him to go talk to her and per the show runners he learned lessons while being a different person.

Since they actually didn't share what those lessons were, lol, we have to guess, but I can imagine Oliver as Barry suddenly being really afraid that Felicity wouldn't currently love him or what if they couldn't get reality reversed? He must have worried what his life would look like if that happened and wondered would she be able to love him even if she saw him as that much changed.  Which then put in perspective how little a thing in the grand scheme Felicity packing heat really was.  

[scarynikki12]

24 minutes ago, quarks said:

The Arkham Asylum receptionist being all whatever about superpowers at this point. That was great. Can we have her on the Batwoman show?

I want this so much.  SO MUCH.  She was amazing and exactly how an Arkham Asylum employee should be.  Not remotely phased by a new patient with crazy powers.

25 minutes ago, quarks said:

Count me in as not buying that Bruce Wayne took off because of crime in Gotham City. I did catch that he took off shortly after Ra's Al Ghul died in Star City and after Nyssa disbanded the League of Assassins. HMM.

Has to be a multi-episode/season story for a Batwoman series.  I will accept nothing else.

[Chaser]

I wish the show would remember Felicity and Barry’s friendship during the Crossovers. 

[BkWurm1]

8 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I wish the show would remember Felicity and Barry’s friendship during the Crossovers. 

Or let her develop more of one with Kara.  I'll never get why they think only the leads should hang out.  At this point, they are the least interesting pairings.  

[MarkHB]

2 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I liked the names on the Arkham Asylum doors:

O. Cobblepot

P. Isley

E. Nigma

M. Guggenheim

There was another one that I didn't recognize. Was the guy in the gold mask supposed to be someone from the comics?

As others have said, the gold mask was Psycho Pirate.  But the other name on a cell was "B[asil] Karlo," aka Clayface.

I loved that Kara came into Gotham knowing that Bruce Wayne is Batman, at least on her earth, and yet did a very deft job of talking around that point in her conversations with Kate and the others.  And I also loved the "Bruce's office" set and the use of Chicago.  They've set a high bar now, though... what kind of deal would they need from the Land of Lincoln for the CW to let them film the Batwoman series there.

World's Finest, indeed....

[KenyaJ]

2 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

When they called DA Laurel Lance to get them all out of jail and she let them rot, I seriously wondered if Felicity had confided in her what had happened and she was enacting some payback.  Lol.  That's how bad's it's gotten.  I'm assuming Laurel WOULD stand up for her.  (I actually don't think Felicity would have called her and Laurel is just supposed to be messing with them for no reason but if Laurel did find out, it feels in character)

No matter how "fraught" their relationship might have been, IMO there's no way Felicity would condone Laurel leaving Oliver in jail for a night. Not after he just spent 7 months in prison. Especially not after she saw last week the residual trauma he had from his imprisonment. Considering that Laurel knows the things Oliver was subjected to in Slabside, it was a shitty thing to do. But it was funny. And it suggests Laurel is still struggling with her empathy lessons, and I'm fine with that, LOL.

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I was ok with Felicity not saying anything more on the subject of trust and respect because that really wasn't what their current issue between them was.  Oliver not telling her things is an on-going thing they do need to still work on and address but that's not something solved in a snap and Felicity knew that before he got of prison and it wasn't actually what was coming between them.  The consequences of him making his choice and how it changed her was the issue, or rather how Oliver was reacting to it changing her.  I think Oliver's reaction made her incredibly insecure and afraid he wouldn't be able to handle how she'd changed. 

This time Oliver is not just saying, "How can we fix this?" Which she still took as how can he fix her, a fix she wasn't open to, but this time Oliver acknowledges they will change and grow the rest of their lives but nothing will shake his love for her.  And that's what i think Felicity needed at the moment more than solving all of their issues in that moment.  She knew he loved her but she seemed afraid he wouldn't keep loving the new her, even if she knew that was a crazy thing to be afraid of.  So Oliver spelling it out and telling her basically he wasn't going anywhere no matter what, that was enough to earn that kiss and put the worst of the tension between them away.  

Oliver not telling her about the swap was probably him shutting down and avoiding the emotional conversation that would be required to prove he was who he said he was. Maybe he was even afraid with Felicity upset with him, he wouldn't be able to convince her, but most likely he was just shutting down those emotions and fears until they got reality back and didn't want to take them out of the box at that time.  

 I don't think he really was trying to exclude her so much as he wasn't ready to talk about the bigger issue which was his freakout over her changing and Felicity's freakout over his freakout. It's not the same circumstance as when this kind of thing happens. (He probably thought he found a loop hole to promising to never lie to her again.)    Still, it didn't take much to get him to go talk to her and per the show runners he learned lessons while being a different person.

Since they actually didn't share what those lessons were, lol, we have to guess, but I can imagine Oliver as Barry suddenly being really afraid that Felicity wouldn't currently love him or what if they couldn't get reality reversed? He must have worried what his life would look like if that happened and wondered would she be able to love him even if she saw him as that much changed.  Which then put in perspective how little a thing in the grand scheme Felicity packing heat really was.  

Sorry to quote your entire post, but it's a really good one, and you expressed everything I was thinking. 

[Mellowyellow]

kekeke That Barry-as-Oliver kiss with Felicity was very "Olicity"-ish. They copied the scene from last week, had Felicity in the same dress, GG in the same clothes and channelling SA's Oliver in that scene while kissing Felicity. Felicity even did the same head grab. I was highly amused! They got me with that one! I was like "WTF just happened?" 

I liked that they let my girl use her big brain to build a big machine to summon the other Flash. I would have raged like a hungry T-Rex if that had been Curtis. Seriously not even the Olicity scene would have placated me! My girl is a genius and you best remember that show!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I can't even be mad at all the "But why didn't I realise because Iris did" stuff because that was legit the DUMBEST shit the arrowverse has tried to pull. Did you idiots forget we JUST watched yesterday and saw Iris not believing them and drugging them. LIKE IT WAS YESTERDAY!!!!! Did you think I'd lose my marbles and forget overnight? That made no sense and the fact that everyone was acting like it made perfect sense was ridiculous so I just let it fly over my head as you do with these shows.

Re Olicity issues - There is no quick fix for their issues (the one about Oliver making unilateral decisions), only time can pass to let Oliver prove himself and make Felicity more comfortable that he won't go down that road again.

His speech wasn't designed to reset things between them but rather to address his freak out about her last week. It was also an acknowledgement that he can't be without her, that there is no other romantic love for him besides her and after everything that's happened Felicity knows it's the same case for her. They love each other and can't live without each other. So what can they do. They can only move forward and keep trying. They're bound for life because they can't let each other go.

Felicity's words last week and Oliver's words this week. OMG Guys!!!! THIS IS OUR SHIP!!!!! OUR OTP SAID THAT!!!!!!

I wonder if Beth and MG consulted each other on those lines. 

[Cthulhudrew]

32 minutes ago, DavidJSnyder said:

If Batman has been gone for three years, is Batwoman the old foe in Gotham who sent Talia to prison?

Maybe she got dropped off at the Slab by "Matches" Malone.

[Trisha]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

When the hell did Oliver have the time to hook up with the reporter? This had to have been back in season two, since he wasn't working for Queen Consolidated before that - that was even part of the plot, Arrow. And fairly early on, since he and Sara hooked up in February and they didn't break up until after he and Moira lost Queen Consolidated and everything else. So...between October/January?

Someone in the live thread speculated that it happened before he went to Lian Yu and was still living his playboy life. He wasn’t officially working at QC but still wanted to help his dad’s company in his douchey way. I have no evidence that this is the case but I’m adopting it as head canon because otherwise it invalidates all his season 2 growth. 

[Mellowyellow]

Props to EBR on the body language and expression before Oliver (as Barry) started his speech. It was very subtle but she looked slightly wary and uncomfortable, the way I would expect her to look if she thought it was Barry about to say mushy stuff to her. It wasn't until Oliver launched into one of his famous declarations of love that she teared up and you could see her thinking "That's my Oliver. I'd recognise those mushy speeches anywhere you big oaf." 

Okay I totally made the last bit up but you get the idea! 

[rtms77]

1 hour ago, Cthulhudrew said:

So there is a Bruce Wayne on Kara's earth, and he's "frenemies" with Clark, and there's one on Earth-1, but there are apparently no analogues of Kara and Clark on Earth-1 and no Oliver and Barry on Earth-38? Because??

This did not make any sense. I rewatched this scene and and Kara makes no effort to make a distinction between her world and where she was. She just says her cousin is friends or frenmies with Bruce Wayne. Is this why Bruce Wayne is gone, he’s got the same gig on Earth 38 as he does on Earth 1? In fact Kara seemed quite familiar with Gotham City and how it’s run.