S05.E09: Elseworlds Part 1

[kickingnames]

I’ve not been totally happy with any of the crossovers either, although the first one and the third one were generally better IMO. The first one actually did more of that “broad strokes” thing I don’t like with both Barry and Oliver — with Barry being more reckless/careless than usual, and Oliver more angry/controlling (although weirdly they were OOC only on their own respective shows, rather than each other’s) — but I think the more complete nature of the crossover (truly having significant portions of each team cross over, rather than one or two with barely more than cameos) made up for it in my mind. I enjoy it much more when the crossovers are fully integrated like they were the first time and definitely last year — although I realize that also lends more to that feel of one show propping up the others. This current crossover episode had little more than the title characters from the other shows (Diggle was gone as soon as he was done vomiting, and Clark and Lois are not regular characters on Supergirl anyway), even when there was a legitimate reason for more than just than just the title characters to be involved (specifically in Arrow’s case). It was a big let down after last year (although I’m guessing it made this year’s much easier to shoot, logistically).

Edited December 10, 2018 by kickingnames

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

When they kept mentioning Ivo and Amazo, all I could think about was Season 2 of Arrow. Is there a connection to that?

They said that AMAZO was rocking some sort of nanite-infused version of Mirakuru that let it duplicate metahumans' powers, and it came out of Ivo Industries. So I'd say yes.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Even though I did enjoy Barry getting revenge for getting shot by Ollie, it really makes no sense. Ollie suspects, nay, KNOWS that Barry set up remote-control bows. Ollie taught the lesson about scouting his surroundings. It would have been much cooler if he had been like, "Nice try." And had already disarmed the remote-control bows.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Starry said:

The ratings are on par with the rest of the season but if I remember correctly Flash didn't get a major boost from the crossover last year either and the episode aired on Tuesday as usual. There were other s4 episodes that had better ratings. I could be wrong but I predict Arrow and Supergirl will improve their ratings. These crossovers don't help Flash as much as they do the other shows.

 

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

My whole point about feeling manipulated.  The crossovers don't help my favorite show - they only help the others... and usually it feels like they just use the flash characters to prop up the other shows in a glorified brochure.

As a Flash fan, I have always resisted Berlanti's manipulation with these crossovers by simply refusing to watch them, especially after he committed the unforgivable sin of having Barry and Iris marry on Supergirl or one of those other shows. From its pilot, The Flash has been the highest rated show of all these CW DC shows. Berlanti has attempted to use The Flash to increase the ratings of the other shows. As far as I can tell, the other shows get a slight bump and then their ratings return to their usual lows, but maybe the crossovers have bought them a couple more seasons, who knows.

Edited December 10, 2018 by SimoneS

[BkWurm1]

Quote

'm still more peeved over how they used AMAZO. Someone still has to explain to me how Ralph, Killer Frost, Superman, Supergirl, Flash lost their powers to him, when he only replicated them? I know, I know. Stop trying to make sense out of things that don't make sense

They didn't lose their powers. After they were copied, Oliver, Barry, Kara, and Clark all still had their powers but Amazo was able to counteract them by using one of his other powers so like phasing so Supes couldn't hit him.  Which then asks the question why Team Flash stayed home rather than also helping.  

 

8 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

They're catering to what people who don't watch Arrow think of Arrow. Imagine, that you're a fan of Flash, who never or rarely watches Arrow, and all you really know about it is that it's a darker show. You go with that when writing Oliver, because otherwise you'll confuse those people who, make no mistake, make up the majority of viewers.

I think viewers are capable of grasping nuance.   Oliver and Barry have vastly different personalities without bashing viewers over the head about light vs dark

6 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

When they kept mentioning Ivo and Amazo, all I could think about was Season 2 of Arrow. Is there a connection to that?

One of the writers for the episode said it was Ivo's company but probably only in name only at this point, likely sold off after Ivo died.  So apparently not something to be read into as a bigger thing than an Easter Egg after all.  

3 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

That makes sense and it's not CP I took issue with in that scene. She was fine and conveyed more affection than Barry.

My beef is with GG who as real Barry should have looked more loving imo since he misses Iris and wants her to see him as Hubs again. He should have been the one to be more affectionate instead he seemed pretty sour to me. 

I think that was him slipping into the dark side.  Lol.  

[ottoDbusdriver]

The one thing there was no shortage of this episode -- pep talks.

[GHScorpiosRule]

18 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

They didn't lose their powers. After they were copied, Oliver, Barry, Kara, and Clark all still had their powers but Amazo was able to counteract them by using one of his other powers so like phasing so Supes couldn't hit him.  Which then asks the question why Team Flash stayed home rather than also helping.  

 

Okay, I must rewatch because I thought the look on Supes’ face was like “where are my powers?” Not to mention Killer Frost’s first words were: “It took our powers!”

Where’s KevinFUCKING!Conroy’s Batman when you need him?

Edited December 11, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[dkb]

I liked it. It wasn't the best but if wasn't the worst ever either. 

 

20 hours ago, Brinny said:

Man, chemistry is so subjective. Because I think that Patton and Gustin's chemistry is probably one of the best things about the show. That hand grab near the end of the episode with Barry and Iris? LOVE. 

 

6 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I thought the Barry/Iris scenes were the best part of the episode. 

The WestAllen stuff was fantastic.  I thought the end scene was appropriately angsty; Iris really believes Barry is Barry but she has to unprogram herself to think about Barry Oliver as her husband.

Also glad that Candice Patton got to be a big part of the episode. Usually the crossovers are way to busy with too many people.

[scarynikki12]

Any discussion or speculation about what 3rd parties (e.g., TPTB) are thinking, except as it directly pertains to the plot of the show itself, is off-limits.  This includes assertions about what the writers think of characters, relationships, or actors.

Example:

* Allowed: "I think Barry will be in the crossover episode because his super speed powers will be needed."

* Forbidden: "I think Barry will be in the crossover episode and get more screentime than Wally because the writers are racist."

Do not use this crossover as an excuse to engage in ship wars, be rude or rehash last year's crossover.  Keep it to the show, y'all.

[Trini]

I love how Oliver doesn't even say "Iris" or mention her, but Barry immediately connects "bed" and "morning" to Iris (and thus the full implications of the switch hit home). LOL!

Barry: *What usually happens in my bed in the morning... -WAIT-*

[Jack Kerouac]

On 12/9/2018 at 10:50 PM, quarks said:

Perry pays Lois less than he pays Clark? WHAT? WHAT?

Isn't Lois Lane a multiple award-winning journalist? And Perry is paying her 21 cents LESS per dollar than Clark?

Lois should be looking for another job.

[Starry]

11 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think that was him slipping into the dark side.  Lol.  

I've thought of that as well and after seeing the Arrow episode I believe you're right. I still see angst and not anger though.

[DearEvette]

I had very low expectations and little interest in this crossover.  I only watch  Legends & Flash.  And since the Legends were not part of this and in every crossover so far, the Flash episode never, ever feels like a Flash episode -- hence my reluctance.

But I knew I'd watch at least the Flash episode.

I know people are saying the Flash writers wrote this but again it feels all wrong.  Not like a Flash ep at all.  Actually I take that back there are at least three place where this did feel like a Flash ep:

1 - Imprisoning Barry and Oliver.  Team Flash will imprison people like a Muthafuh'

2 - Team Hero standing around like "derp." to give the Bad guy time to power up.  The Flash episodes do this with stupid regularity.  Barry can stop bullets or an already deployed nuclear bomb, and yet with regularity some half-assed meta gets the drop on him.

and 3 - Iris and real Barry scenes.  Even though so much of the ep everyone felt out of character -- and I am not just talking the body swap with Barry and Oliver -- at least the scenes with Iris and Barry felt normal.

Otherwise this was really and odd episode that felt like a bunch of imposters wrote it.

For one thing, the initial reaction of Team Flash once Barry and Oliver told them the truth was not how real Team Flash would act.  Given how weird Oliver!Barry was was acting that morning Iris would have agreed that something was off right away and not dismissed it out of hand.  They all would.  A typical Team Flash would be throwing out possibilities/solutions in weird psuedo science babble before Barry and Oliver had even finished talking. Not having them disbelieve them completely.

 Also, I get that we needed Oliver to be freaked out by Iris's affections but they made Iris say shit she would never say and act in ways with him that she has never acted with real Barry.  She loves Barry but not in that weird schmoopy way they made her.

Also the intro of Clark and Lois felt like an unnecessary info dump.  Just unnatural in both concept and execution.  I will say that I noticed people commenting on Lois' reaction to Oliver.  Honestly I can't say I disagree with her on that front.  If that had been my first intro to Oliver I'd think he was a jerk too.  Oliver during the entire Smallville segment was being a pill. 

Also no Nora at all?  A completely missed opportunity and again not something the Flash writers would have ignored given how important she is to this season as a whole.

A couple of things I did like:

Cisco hugging Oliver!Barry

"Oh Barry what have you done this time?"  From Oliver as he sees himself in the Flash suit for the first time.

The small look of hurt on Iris' face when Oliver!Barry said "I'm gonna go talk to someone who better understands me."

The dislocated thumb /phasing instruction swap

Like I said, this did not feel like a Flash episode at all.  Not part of the continuity of the show and the characters all acting out of character.  Total miss for me.

[Commando Cody]

I don't like these cross-over episodes. They all crossover into shows I don't watch.  These last two crossovers have not gained any interest for me to watch Supergirl.  More so this year than last. Whoever plays Superman is kind of goofy looking and I found they have employed that crappy actress, from Grimm, as Lois Lane.  I have absolutely no interest in tuning in for the final tonight. 

[Trini]

3 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Like I said, this did not feel like a Flash episode at all.  Not part of the continuity of the show and the characters all acting out of character.  Total miss for me.

I don't feel quite that strongly, but I do think that this felt like a parody of a Flash episode. As much as people thought the show was 'dumping' on Oliver, I think the show was also making fun of itself just as much. The hallway talk, for instance.

[NeenerNeener]

On 12/9/2018 at 9:11 PM, Primal Slayer said:

The Smallville music probably was the highlight, it just hit me with the nostalgia real hard and it was great. Not sure how I feel about this actress playing Lois, I dont hate her in the role but it isnt an automatic "WOW" to me. 

Yeah, I laughed when I heard the Smallville theme. I think they could have gotten a better actress than Bitsy Tulloch for Lois Lane. I popped over to IMDB to see what she's been up to since Grimm went off the air; apparently she and Giuntoli got married and she's expecting a baby in Feb 2019.

The Joey Tribbiani theory (lack of chemistry between co-stars on-screen means they're doing it like rabbits off-screen) strikes again.

Edited December 12, 2018 by NeenerNeener

[phoenics]

5 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I had very low expectations and little interest in this crossover.  I only watch  Legends & Flash.  And since the Legends were not part of this and in every crossover so far, the Flash episode never, ever feels like a Flash episode -- hence my reluctance.

But I knew I'd watch at least the Flash episode.

I know people are saying the Flash writers wrote this but again it feels all wrong.  Not like a Flash ep at all.  Actually I take that back there are at least three place where this did feel like a Flash ep:

1 - Imprisoning Barry and Oliver.  Team Flash will imprison people like a Muthafuh'

2 - Team Hero standing around like "derp." to give the Bad guy time to power up.  The Flash episodes do this with stupid regularity.  Barry can stop bullets or an already deployed nuclear bomb, and yet with regularity some half-assed meta gets the drop on him.

and 3 - Iris and real Barry scenes.  Even though so much of the ep everyone felt out of character -- and I am not just talking the body swap with Barry and Oliver -- at least the scenes with Iris and Barry felt normal.

Otherwise this was really and odd episode that felt like a bunch of imposters wrote it.

For one thing, the initial reaction of Team Flash once Barry and Oliver told them the truth was not how real Team Flash would act.  Given how weird Oliver!Barry was was acting that morning Iris would have agreed that something was off right away and not dismissed it out of hand.  They all would.  A typical Team Flash would be throwing out possibilities/solutions in weird psuedo science babble before Barry and Oliver had even finished talking. Not having them disbelieve them completely.

 Also, I get that we needed Oliver to be freaked out by Iris's affections but they made Iris say shit she would never say and act in ways with him that she has never acted with real Barry.  She loves Barry but not in that weird schmoopy way they made her.

Also the intro of Clark and Lois felt like an unnecessary info dump.  Just unnatural in both concept and execution.  I will say that I noticed people commenting on Lois' reaction to Oliver.  Honestly I can't say I disagree with her on that front.  If that had been my first intro to Oliver I'd think he was a jerk too.  Oliver during the entire Smallville segment was being a pill. 

Also no Nora at all?  A completely missed opportunity and again not something the Flash writers would have ignored given how important she is to this season as a whole.

A couple of things I did like:

Cisco hugging Oliver!Barry

"Oh Barry what have you done this time?"  From Oliver as he sees himself in the Flash suit for the first time.

The small look of hurt on Iris' face when Oliver!Barry said "I'm gonna go talk to someone who better understands me."

The dislocated thumb /phasing instruction swap

Like I said, this did not feel like a Flash episode at all.  Not part of the continuity of the show and the characters all acting out of character.  Total miss for me.

I largely agree with this - I wonder if these were Flash writers actually writing this or if it was MG's writers... or if the writers fell in love with the "jokes" they wanted to make and sacrificed all of the characters on the altar of "meta jokes" and easter eggs and general schmoopiness.

I agree with the 3 elements of the writing that felt right and that the rest felt off.

[ursula]

All the hyping over Lois being a multiple-award winning journalists and Clark, Kara and Lois bonding over being a journalist just makes Iris's treatment on this show more jarring. 

[TwistedandBored]

It was a weird start to the crossover. The whole time I was wondering why didn't they just have them switch all the way up and increase the stakes by not having them remember who they are cause this felt stupid and unnecessary. 

Iris dragging Oliver which to be honest I kinda of agreed with on some parts like when she brought up about Oliver not telling her he cut a deal before going to prison. I just think Candace has so many different acting ranges. I really hope she tries her hand on sitcom next after the flash. Her comedic timing is just awesome. 

Even though I hate the song, I almost cried when I heard, "Can somebody save me". Nostalgia is a bitch. 

WestAllen was cute. I loved Barry was motivated to change things back by the simple fact Oliver woke up next to Iris. lol

Edited December 12, 2018 by TwistedandBored

[Trini]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

I largely agree with this - I wonder if these were Flash writers actually writing this or if it was MG's writers... or if the writers fell in love with the "jokes" they wanted to make and sacrificed all of the characters on the altar of "meta jokes" and easter eggs and general schmoopiness.

I agree with the 3 elements of the writing that felt right and that the rest felt off.

The credited writers were Eric Wallace and Sam Chalsen, who are part of the Flash writers room. Marc Guggenheim was in charge of this crossover in general, and I think Berlanti came up with the story idea.

[rmontro]

Maybe this will make me sound dense, but I kept getting confused with the Barry/Oliver switch.  I kept forgetting what was going on, I kept thinking things like "Now wait, Oliver's in Barry's head but they look like each other, but they have each other's powers what now?".  When actually it's "Oliver is Oliver but he has the Flash's powers, and the world thinks he's Barry".  Was I the only one getting mixed up?  Please say I wasn't  :)

[North of Eden]

Underwhelming.The best part was seeing 1990 flash and his theme music.

[rmontro]

15 hours ago, North of Eden said:

Underwhelming.The best part was seeing 1990 flash and his theme music.

1990 Flash with his theme music and 2018 special effects.

For some reason, the Monitor reminded me of Obama.

[mac123x]

Shallowness - Oliver looked a bit flabby in Barry's suit, though to be honest that suit is the least flattering Flash outfit so far. 

 

On the other hand, Barry with an abs-tattoo, then in the Green Arrow costume,... I'll be in my bunk.

Edited December 13, 2018 by mac123x

[AudienceofOne]

What show was this supposed to be again?

On 12/12/2018 at 8:25 AM, Trini said:

I don't feel quite that strongly, but I do think that this felt like a parody of a Flash episode. As much as people thought the show was 'dumping' on Oliver, I think the show was also making fun of itself just as much. The hallway talk, for instance.

These writers really hate Oliver though, right? 

The switch to Smallville was definitely the best part of this. But let's consider that for a moment - a parody of a long-dead and frankly sub-par superhero show was the best part of this episode. Let's ponder that. 

[slayer2]

This episode was such a blast, it was hard to get through because I kept rewinding everything. They definitely need to lighten it up on Arrow because SA is pretty hysterical, let the guy smile once and a while he's supposed to be The Green Arrow. Anyway I floved Iris and Fake Barry and Barry and Oliver's trading barbs and Oliver laughing at him about his thumb and their whole breakout scene and Barry's revenge and bless up to whomever's idea it was to use Smallville's theme song that put me in a good mood for the week. Lois was perfect, Kara was wonderful as always and ugh I just loved it all!

[adora721]

I'm hoping that Barry keeps something from Oliver- his fighting skills. It was really great to see Barry be able to fight and not rely on his powers for once.  He and the other meta members of Team Flash should really get some basic hand-to-hand fight training. Luckily, they know a police detective who can give them access to such training through a class at the academy or something. The over dependence on their meta powers is a constant disadvantage when they meet people like The Thinker and Cicada, who basically nullify their meta abilities. No wonder they sit or stand around frozen when their powers don't work; they don't have backup, non-meta fight skills.

Edited December 16, 2018 by adora721

[Delphi]

Doing a rewatch... Why is Iris wearing Felicity's shirt...?

[Froippi]

Iris really looked Heartbroken this episode I mean I get it the Green Arrow lets the darkness in and channels it 

 

The way she was acting it’s almost as if she had lost Barry 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Froippi

[Kate45]

On 12/13/2018 at 8:59 PM, Delphi said:

Doing a rewatch... Why is Iris wearing Felicity's shirt...?

The wardrobe department has done that a few times. Iris’ finale and premiere look comes to mind, because Felicity wore the same top on Arrow. I’m not sure if it was done purposely for this crossover or not. 

[Ottis]

This was dumb. What did Oliver and Barry do that caused any issues? They simply said they were each other. This team has seen enough weirdness that at the very least they could give them the benefit of the doubt. 

I had stopped watching this show for a season or two because of things like that. Guess I’ll go back to not watching. 

[Trini]

Re-watched, against my better judgement:

Grant and Stephen are really good scene partners and I do like the Barry/Oliver dynamic, but they're really going to have to stop centering everything on these two if they really want the crossovers to showcase all the characters from all the shows, and have the audience from all the shows interested and invested.

Well Grant really got the better deal out of the suit switch. Here, it's really obvious how each superhero costume is designed for the specific actor. The Season 5 Flash suit still has issues on Grant, but looks way worse on Stephen, who has different body shape; and then Grant doesn't look as bad in the Green Arrow suit, but can't fill it out as much as Stephen. And then Tyler H. is wearing a similarly form-fitting Superman suit, but his looks the best (compared to the Flash suit). I'm guessing it's partly because of different materials, and maybe an undersuit?

Rare Barry nipple sighting:

 

While I did like the intro to Lois (& Clark), it was kinda weird to have several scenes with just Supergirl characters. The best scenes in these crossovers are the interactions between the different casts.

... So besides the FAIL of not letting Iris and Lois meet, we didn't even get any Iris/Kara or Iris/Clark fellow journalists' interaction, even when they were right there in STAR Labs (But they managed to write in a scene between Clark and this year's irrelevant Wells). ::ugh::

Anyway...

So no one cares about how ARGUS has a metahuman-hunting, metapower-copying robot?? Also Cisco's line at the end about having all the parts of AMAZO locked up in STAR Labs was dumb, because I'm pretty sure ARGUS is gonna want their stuff back, and they have the (fire)power to just come and take it back, too.

[BkWurm1]

7 hours ago, Trini said:

Well Grant really got the better deal out of the suit switch. Here, it's really obvious how each superhero costume is designed for the specific actor. The Season 5 Flash suit still has issues on Grant, but looks way worse on Stephen, who has different body shape; and then Grant doesn't look as bad in the Green Arrow suit, but can't fill it out as much as Stephen.

I can't say I agree.  I think SA looked absurd but so did GG but I'd say that what made SA look absurd was that he filled out the suit too much so while he looked like he was dressed as a teletubbie, he didn't look diminished in power and strength, whereas GG to me looked childlike.  So maybe I'd say Oliver looked sillier but Barry looked weaker.  And part of that was emphasized by the nutty "Oh no Barry will give into the darkness he's now infected with" storyline.  So in the long run, I think looking silly for a while is less harmful.    

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

what made SA look absurd was that he filled out the suit too much so while he looked like he was dressed as a teletubbie,

Okay, the bolded just made me 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[millennium]

My big problem with this episode is it feels like somebody decided it would be funny to switch Barry and Oliver's personalities, then backed into a forgettable story that would let the running joke play out. 

The greatest indictment of this episode is the fact that almost everyone in this thread cites the Smallville theme as its shining moment (add me to the list).   All those characters, all that writing, and this is the biggest takeaway?   Not good.   

Personally, I thought Oliver response's reaction to being told he can't get drunk was pretty funny: "Can this day get any worse?"

Since these episodes are fairly tongue in cheek,  I'd like to see a John Wesley Shipp Flash from Earth 53 whose son is James Vanderbeek.   And I don't wanna wait for my life to be over ...

On 12/27/2018 at 12:29 PM, BkWurm1 said:

what made SA look absurd was that he filled out the suit too much so while he looked like he was dressed as a teletubbie

Eh-oh!

Edited January 13, 2019 by millennium

[Trini]

Gotta say this was probably the most I've enjoyed Amell on any of the shows, and the most animated I've seen him as an actor. Who knew he'd be so good with comedy? I'd set my expectations really low, but he surprised me.

[Starfish35]

Finally getting around to watching, for the first time, now that Crisis is only a few weeks away.  I actually really enjoyed it.  Maybe it’s the effect of time and distance from all three shows, but while there were some parts I didn’t think were handled the best (I think the fight at the farm was the biggest issue I had), overall it was a fun episode.   I think Stephen Amell especially is handling the comedy aspect well, as @Trini said above, and I’m getting such a kick out of watching his reactions to things.  Like his reaction to Barry telling him what phasing was. 🤣😂

I also really enjoyed getting to see Tyler Hoechlin’s Clark again,  and I like Bitsie Tulloch as Lois.  And of course the Smallville song...so much nostalgia.  But oh dear.  The new Wells.  😬  I’m so sorry guys.  Did you all really have to put up with that all season?  😳  Anyway...on to Part 2 and Gotham!