S04.E08: Bunker Hill

[Trini]

Quote

Nia has a powerful dream about Agent Liberty but refuses to look at it as a prophetic dream and pushes it aside. After noticing something is bothering Nia, Kara enlists Brainy's help, and the two try to persuade Nia to embrace her destiny. Meanwhile, Manchester Black (guest star David Ajala) pays Ben Lockwood a menacing visit.

Kevin Smith directed the episode written by Rob Wright & Eric Carrasco.

Airdate 12/2/2018

[ItCouldBeWorse]

So Nia's power is inherited once a generation by a (presumably genetic) female of her family? Did the writers think that through? Or are they making a greater point about what constitutes being a female?

[cambridgeguy]

So is Nia actually a transgender female?  Seems like something that only passes to the female members of her family would be a genetic thing. 

Has Kara been getting a paycheck from the government all of this time?  Or is the deal that she gets to use the medical facilities and tech when needed?  I guess she's also lucky all of those agents who saw Kara Danvers walking around the DEO are so stupid they never made the connection between her and Supergirl.

Looks like 90s Flash could use some help from his CW counterpart.

[bettername2come]

2 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

So Nia's power is inherited once a generation by a (presumably genetic) female of her family? Did the writers think that through? Or are they making a greater point about what constitutes being a female?

Wondered the same thing. I assume it's the latter. It did seem like an oddly specific point to make if not. I like that she's an alien for the added reason for her freaking out about doctors recommendations, but now my brain hurts a little from pondering what being a transgender alien means in terms of transitions and presumably genetic powers. Or are they more psychic/magical/spiritual?

Kara, Brainy and Nia made a nice little trio this episode. Seriously, how did Nia not figure out Supergirl? She's not even trying! Liked that Nia threw the hook to stop Manchester. Nice change up to her dream. Kara flying and bringing the building with her was a creative use of her powers that I don't recall seeing before in any Superman shows/movies, so points for presumed originality. So glad Kara was fired from the DEO. Were they even paying her? All this talk about her being a government agent, but I don't think she was getting a paycheck.  I love that they mentioned Lois Lane and even more I loved Kara's shocked/offended look that Nia didn't know who she was. 
 

[mxc90]

Are the writers kidding with the government not knowing Kara's identity? The DEO agent's couldn't connect Kara/Supergirl to Alex all those seasons and start a rumor?

J'onn waited a long time to reveal this ability (just like the one where he changed faces to find out a name through facial recognition). In previous seasons, he could have caught many criminals by touching objects left at the crime scene or found Fiona much earlier.

Did J'onn really think Manchester would just give him his location by asking?

How does Nia work in the media and not know Lois Lane?

Is Nia transgender or was that a lie to James?

Please put an end to this Agent of Liberty garbage. Too bad Manchester was made to look more of the bad guy than Agent of Liberty. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by mxc90

[Oreo2234]

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Is Nia transgender or was that a lie to James?

I'm certain she is. They promoted the character as transgender so I don't think they would pull a bait and switch on that.

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Please put an end to this Agent of Liberty garbage. Too bad Manchester was made to look more of the bad guy than Agent of Liberty. 

I think we will see him again before the end of the season (as well as Manchester) but maybe we will get a break from him for a little while. The actor is good but I don't think Agent Liberty can carry an entire season as a villain on his own. 

Alex is starting to be sidelined again and I don't think Kara leaving the DEO will help that. The writers could create an interesting story out of Alex dealing with her superiors and the DEO in its current state but I don't they will. 

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Are the writers kidding with the government not knowing Kara's identity? The DEO agent's couldn't connect Kara/Supergirl to Alex all those seasons and start a rumor?

We've seen Kara walking around the DEO in her civilian clothes on multiple occasions. I think she even mentioned the DEO knowing her true identity a couple of seasons ago. Between this and the metahuman thing they seem to be ignoring a lot of continuity lately. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by Oreo2234

[CletusMusashi]

I kind of wish Manchester would just commit to being a vigiliante murderer. He could have walked in the front door, killed Lockwood, and saved everyone else a shitload of trouble. Would The Punisher have wasted half an episode tormenting him ominously? Hell no! Punisher's got more people to kill!

So, if there's ever any kind of time-travely do-over on this one, my advice to him is:

1. Put on some sort of disguise. If you're wearing a mask and gloves and speaking with an English accent, and that's all the wife can give as a description, American cops are probably not going to be looking that hard for a black guy.

2.  Stop wearing English flags on every single item of clothing you have. Otherwise #1 will not help. Get a jack tattooed on your left buttcheek if you absolutely must have one on you at all times, but stop walking around everywhere with a shirt that yells "Um, actually, I'm English!"

3. Just shoot him. Brass knuckles are a decent tool for interrogating evil henchmen, I suppose, but once you actually have the evil terrorist leader right the hell in front of you, just shoot him. If you're worried about noise, maybe stab him or snap his neck or whatever, but with all the crazy high tech shit that you've pulled out of your ass so far, I have trouble believing that you can't come up with some kind of either silenced gun or silent gun-like energy pistol. Hell, you've pulled out quiet anti-Kryptonian weapons!   and

4. It is your own stupid theatrical fault that you didn't kill Lockwood. Dumbass. What, you didn't think that in a town full of psychics and telepaths and supergirls that somebody might interrupt you if you screwed around with him all day? Bad killer! Bad, bad killer!

Edited December 3, 2018 by CletusMusashi

[Lady Calypso]

Kara, Nia, and Brainy make for a fun trio. I really did like their scenes and Nia's a pretty cool character. I do like the reveal that she is an alien, knows about it, but isn't sure about how to use her prophetic power. I think her and Brainy work well together as well. I do agree with the questions about Nia being transgender and if they are making a point. I assume they are, since the actress is transgender and they likely would not be forgetting that plot point from a few episodes ago. Either way, I don't mind it since it shouldn't be all that important and it's not preachy like I expected the show to go. I can see them acknowleding this plot point or ignoring it completely. 

So...is it bad that I was rooting for the President wanting to know Supergirl's other identity? I mean, they could easily find that information out if they really searched for it, but I think the President made a good point about his family needing protection because his identity is now extremely important so why shouldn't Supergirl extend the same risk? Although I guess it's more risky for her as people are more anti-alien this season. 

I am pleased that the Ben Lockwood/Agent Liberty stuff is out there finally, and they seem to be setting up Liberty's boss as the real Big Bad. I assume Ben will only be in jail temporarily as they give Agent Liberty a break. 

I was really on Manchester's side with getting rid of Ben, as we know he'll cause more trouble, and we already know there's a worse danger out there and Ben won't give his boss up willy nilly so why have an obstacle in the way down the road? 

[Winston Wolfe]

1 hour ago, bettername2come said:

Kara flying and bringing the building with her was a creative use of her powers that I don't recall seeing before in any Superman shows/movies, so points for presumed originality.

Actually that looks to me like a shout-out to John Byrne, who re-created the Superman mythos in the late 80s.  IIRC, it always bothered Byrne how some super-heroes could fly without any type of explanation.  So with the X-men, he established that Rogue flew by generating a force greater than gravity.  When he took over Superman, Byrne stated that Kal-El flew by "sheer force of will," which is what Kara appeared to be doing tonight.  It really was a cool use of her powers!

1 hour ago, mxc90 said:

Too bad Manchester was made to look more of the bad guy than Agent of Liberty

Manchester Black is the most interesting character in this Universe.  He's kind of like Batman - always prepared for any contingency, even stopped Kara dead in her tracks.  Dude needs his own show, for real.

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

So...is it bad that I was rooting for the President wanting to know Supergirl's other identity? I mean, they could easily find that information out if they really searched for it, but I think the President made a good point about his family needing protection because his identity is now extremely important so why shouldn't Supergirl extend the same risk? Although I guess it's more risky for her as people are more anti-alien this season. 

Did anyone else think that Kara had flown into the DEO just to reveal her secret ID in light of Ben's comments?  The whole "I can put my loved ones at risk" trope doesn't work here.  Other than her adopted Mom, those closest to Kara (James, Alex, J'onn and Brainy) can all pretty much fend for themselves.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Winston Wolfe

[ItCouldBeWorse]

22 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think the President made a good point about his family needing protection because his identity is now extremely important so why shouldn't Supergirl extend the same risk? Although I guess it's more risky for her as people are more anti-alien this season. 

No one has to be president. He assumed a risk for his family when he entered politics. Kara can't help having powers. Sure, she could have declined to use them and remained safe and anonymous her whole life, but is that what the President wants? A world without Supergirl (and presumably non-government employed) Superman?

18 minutes ago, Winston Wolfe said:

The whole "I can put my loved ones at risk" trope doesn't work here.  Other than her adopted Mom, those closest to Kara (James, Alex, J'onn and Brainy) can all pretty much fend for themselves.

Anyone at Catco would be at risk. Villains would attack her there constantly. She'd need to stop working there. I also don't think that James is impervious to alien attack. Didn't he almost get killed by a bullet last week? He's like a somewhat better equipped police officer. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by ItCouldBeWorse

[legaleagle53]

7 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

No one has to be president. He assumed a risk for his family when he entered politics. Kara can't help having powers. Sure, she could have declined to use them and remained safe and anonymous her whole life, but is that what the President wants? A world without Supergirl (and presumably non-government employed( Superman?

Anyone at Catco would be at risk. Villains would attack her there constantly. She'd need to stop working there. I also don't think that James is impervious to alien attack. Didn't he almost get killed by a bullet last week? He's like a somewhat better equipped police officer. 

And there's also Lena to consider.  Lena herself was recently attacked in her own office because Mercy Graves was able to hack Lena's security system long enough to gain access (since Mercy herself had designed the system).  So Lena would also be at risk if Supergirl's secret identity became public knowledge, since even without the anti-alien movement, there would still be scores of criminals who would be out to get revenge on Supergirl through any and all of her loved ones.

[Primal Slayer]

Overall decent fall finale.

Still not sure why these people are willing to give up their freedom for Agent Liberty.

Brainy....you are a being from the future...you being there CHANGES the future. You telling them about Nia aint gonna hurt anything more then you already have.

Give J'onn an actual exciting storyline! David must be so bored.

So if they are sticking with the "women get the power to see the future" thing then.. at least put in a line about the men once in a century getting it. I know Nia is trans, fine with that, but it wouldnt change her powers unless it has to deal with the amount of estrogen the females have compared to the males. Should've just stuck with everyone on the planet having the ability like in the comics.

The fight scenes in this episode were very fun, the one with Kara/Brainy/Nia was quick but dynamic and great to watch along with Supergirls use of flight to break her out of the N'th Metal even though I am pretty sure that it isnt supposed to shatter that easily.

I was so excited that Kara is out of the DEO, please let it be forever, same with Alex as well. Though as I have seen it pointed out elsewhere, wasnt her identity known by the DEO in the beginning or while J'onn ran it? He called her by her name plenty.

That cliffhanger though! I kind of wish they didnt include it because it almost overshadowed the rest of the episode for me. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by Primal Slayer

[Lantern7]

Kara was stuck to the floor with Nth Metal . . . and she made the building fly for a few seconds by trying really, really, REALLY hard. Bull. Crap. I mean, it was a cute moment, and we kinda needed a win, especially since the denouement punched Kara in the face. But damn. "Tune in next season where Supergirl looks like she's doing a handstand, but is really moving the Earth!!"

Lockwood gets outed, and now he's more of a hero to his supporters. Shit,he probably had two fandoms with some overlap, and now he merged both circles. Manchester, still burning with rage, never saw that as a possible outcome. To be fair, it is a really bleak notion.

Is the new President a bit of a shit, or is it me? He's worried about poll numbers?? I'm guessing the presidential election on that Earth isn't two years away. Or maybe he's trying to get a war chst going. I miss our Shape-Shifting Amazonian Overlord.

The post-Crisis Superman had a bit of a twist, in that the general concenus was that no one would ever think he had a secret idenitiy. They would just think he was always Superman. Sadly, we're going Silver age in this continuity.  First, couldn't the President and Whasherface just ask one of the hundreds of DEO drones who probably know Kara is Supergirl? Two: was anyone expecting Kara to snipe, "You wouldn't ask my cousin that, would you?"

Still liking the Brainy-Fu. Stilted dialect for constant alien makeup is a good trade-off. I'd still want Winn to come back. He hasn't met Cisco and Felicity yet. That's gotta happen.

"Wait, I thought there were only 52 Earths. OOoooooohhhh . . . Earth 1990!!! Clever!" Kinda wished JWShipp had the cowl off, at least for those who never watched his series.

[Oreo2234]

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I was so excited that Kara is out of the DEO, please let it be forever, same with Alex as well.

If Kara is gone from the DEO forever than I feel like Alex (and Brainy if he stays past this season) would eventually have to leave it too. Maybe they could all become vigilantes and fight the corrupt version of the DEO. 

Quote

Is the new President a bit of a shit, or is it me? He's worried about poll numbers?? I'm guessing the presidential election on that Earth isn't two years away.

I think there's a good chance he'll turn out to be evil. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by Oreo2234

[mxc90]

Lydia was so nice to let a stranger into her home (while her husband's out), clueless to her husband's true nature, rescued from death by an alien, and at the end she's proudly chanting "Liberty"! Manchester! You had your chance!

Edited December 3, 2018 by mxc90

[Winston Wolfe]

14 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

26 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Anyone at Catco would be at risk. Villains would attack her there constantly. She'd need to stop working there. I also don't think that James is impervious to alien attack. Didn't he almost get killed by a bullet last week? He's like a somewhat better equipped police officer.

And there's also Lena to consider.  Lena herself was recently attacked in her own office because Mercy Graves was able to hack Lena's security system long enough to gain access (since Mercy herself had designed the system).  So Lena would also be at risk if Supergirl's secret identity became public knowledge, since even without the anti-alien movement, there would still be scores of criminals who would be out to get revenge on Supergirl through any and all of her loved ones.

There's something to be said for those points, but Lena's and Catco's offices seem to be attacked pretty regularly as it is.  I guess SG's coming out as Kara Danvers would only increase the frequency.

[ottoDbusdriver]

58 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Has Kara been getting a paycheck from the government all of this time?  Or is the deal that she gets to use the medical facilities and tech when needed?  I guess she's also lucky all of those agents who saw Kara Danvers walking around the DEO are so stupid they never made the connection between her and Supergirl.

Looks like 90s Flash could use some help from his CW counterpart.

Kara almost blurted out to Nia that she was Supergirl, so I put the over/under at 1 more episode before Nia knows.   Does Nia know that Brainy is also an alien ?

The Flash was the original TV Flash played by JWS -- but the title indicated he was on Earth-90.  I thought there were 52 Earths + Earth X.  Since when have them been 90 (or more) Earths ?

57 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

Kara, Brainy and Nia made a nice little trio this episode. Seriously, how did Nia not figure out Supergirl? She's not even trying! Liked that Nia threw the hook to stop Manchester. Nice change up to her dream. Kara flying and bringing the building with her was a creative use of her powers that I don't recall seeing before in any Superman shows/movies, so points for presumed originality. So glad Kara was fired from the DEO. Were they even paying her? All this talk about her being a government agent, but I don't think she was getting a paycheck.  I love that they mentioned Lois Lane and even more I loved Kara's shocked/offended look that Nia didn't know who she was. 

I'm thrown by the writers introduction this season that Kara is just an employee like everyone else at the DEO.  Ummm, how about no.

Did she get a regular paycheck ? 401k contributions ?  Does she even need dental ?

10 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Brainy....you are a being from the future...you being there CHANGES the future. You telling them about Nia aint gonna hurt anything more then you already have.

Every moment that Brainy stays at the DEO the Butterfly Effect gets multiplied -- if Brainy went back to his home time now, he would barely recognize the place.

So Nia's powers show possible futures, since that woman was not killed by the end of the episode (kind of like the movie 'Minority Report' ?  That's not very helpful, and she could be wrong often.

Still no sign of Kasnian Supergirl.  All that training must take up a lot of her time -- training for what we still don't know.

[Cthulhudrew]

Agent Liberty and his wife are still in the same clothes they were in when he was captured, but somehow Catco and the other paper (Metropolitan News?) have published their stories on Lockwood, Manchester has been booked and imprisoned, and the President has flown to National City and a mass protest has organized. Sounds like the sort of time shenanigans Barry and his kin cause.

All this Supergirl as federal employee stuff still has me irritated. Has she been drawing a paycheck all this time? Did she really give up her free vigilante time to only do DEO sanctioned work? And you can't tell me that all the times she's shown up to the DEO as Kara (and friends) and as Supergirl, that no one else at the DEO has still figured out that they're the same person? Haven't they shown Alex and Kara on-screen together at various points talking about their relationship in the DEO?

[legaleagle53]

4 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

The Flash was the original TV Flash played by JWS -- but the title indicated he was on Earth-90.  I thought there were 52 Earths + Earth X.  Since when have them been 90 (or more) Earths ?

It's been stated that there are 53 KNOWN Earths, not that there are ONLY 53 Earths.  Earth-90 is simply one that no one else knew existed before now.

Quote

So Nia's powers show possible futures, since that woman was not killed by the end of the episode (kind of like the movie 'Minority Report' ?  That's not very helpful, and she could be wrong often.

Nia's visions, like those of all of her race, sometimes tend to be just a bit unclear.  That's actually the nature of prophecy itself.  But with time and practice, she'll learn to control her power and use it with more precision and accuracy, just as Supergirl did when she first started openly using her powers on Earth.

Edited December 3, 2018 by legaleagle53

[statsgirl]

It's always seemed to me to make this one Earth 1 and then everyone else gets a lower number.  There should be names so people can make their own places.

Mostly a fun episode with Kara, Nia and Brainy on a road trip (what does Nia think Brainy's name is?) and loved the Union Jack on the brass knuckles but very frustrating at times by the lack of logic:

President:  Tell us your real name."   Me (shouting):  Kara Zor-El.  Everyone knows that. She's not wearing a mask and hiding her true face when she does her Supergirl actions like Agent Liberty does when he incites. For all anyone knows, she might not have an Earth identity, she could just hole up somewhere when she's not saving the world.

President: "My entire family is under Secret Security protection."   Me: That's because you're the president, they're always under Secret Security protection.  Melania took a day trip to Toronto and it cost $18,000 for the Secret Security protection and Toronto isn't a place known for alien invasion. Michelle Obama wrote about the sharpshooters and the 16 motorcycles and the rest of the presidential cavalcade going for a parent-teacher interview.

If there was ever an example of (what my mother used to call in Hungarian)  'kicking the ball into your own goal', it's the president firing Supergirl. How does he think the country is going to be save now?

I really hate shows where you have to twist logic into a corkscrew to make it work.  Speaking of which

1 hour ago, bettername2come said:

Wondered the same thing. I assume it's the latter. It did seem like an oddly specific point to make if not. I like that she's an alien for the added reason for her freaking out about doctors recommendations, but now my brain hurts a little from pondering what being a transgender alien means in terms of transitions and presumably genetic powers. Or are they more psychic/magical/spiritual?

We argued this one here during the episode. Since it's passed through the female line, unless the alien DNA works differently which it well might, Nia would have an X and a Y chromosome. In  humans, aspects of the brains of gay men have been found to be more similar to those of women than to heterosexual men so being transgender may bring out the female chromosomes for Nia.  Hopefully we'll get an explanation.

Edited December 3, 2018 by statsgirl

[Cthulhudrew]

Another thing- who was Agent Liberty talking to early on in the episode? Some unknown backer of his agenda/hate group? Up till now, IIRC, all we knew was that it was Mercy and Otis who'd set him up, but there is apparently someone behind them.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Cthulhudrew

[ottoDbusdriver]

37 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

It's been stated that there are 53 KNOWN Earths, not that there are ONLY 53 Earths.  Earth-90 is simply one that no one else knew existed before now.

That makes more sense.  But who exactly does the numbering ?  The people on each Earth must think that they are Earth Prime before the discovery of alternate Earths.

[4evaQuez]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

So...is it bad that I was rooting for the President wanting to know Supergirl's other identity? I mean, they could easily find that information out if they really searched for it, but I think the President made a good point about his family needing protection because his identity is now extremely important so why shouldn't Supergirl extend the same risk? Although I guess it's more risky for her as people are more anti-alien this season. 

 

I respectfully disagree that this was a good point. The president's family has trained professionals protecting his family 24/7. Kara's family would not have the same protection. I good retort from Kara would be if he would still be president, knowing the dangers for his family if  there were no secret service protection. Would he risk their lives, safety, and emotional well-being daily if he knew he could not always be there to protect them. Then, it would be a fair point, but right now, he is asking Kara to take a risk that I'm sure he would not.

 

Also, I hated when he said that he could not allow some people to be seen as more important than others. This guy, the president, someone who is seen as one of the most important people in the world and has paid professionals monitoring his approval rating. This seemed like another disingenuous statement from a disingenuous man.

 

I loved this episode. It's funny; I was planning to stop watching Supergirl this season, but they totally won me over the past few episodes. Dream Girl (Nia), Brainy and Supergirl made a really good team. This almost felt like a Legion of Superheroes episode. I, too, wondered why they would stress the female line from Nia, but like someone mentioned up thread, I think the show is looking at the social and emotional defining of gender as opposed to biological. I also liked how they incorporated Nia's prophecy powers. Usually shows have difficulty making passive powers visually interesting and useful in action packed, unexpected moments, but seeing her break the chain from the bullet and knock out Manchester with the hook was a great introduction to what I thought was going to be a boring power. I also liked Brainy and Kara's fight with the agents, and Brainy using the Legion ring to knock the woman out, Kara lifting the entire building, slamming it down and saving the wife, and Manchester's fist fight with Agent Liberty. Did Supergirl get a new choreographer because this season's fights have been a lot more visually interesting and creative.

I know a lot of people loved Winn, but I think Brainy is a much better version of the Winn archetype and I think Winn's absence has forced them to redefine James' character, which has been somewhat successful for me this season.

This was a great episode, and I'm actually looking forward to seeing how this Agent Liberty storyline and Russian Supergirl storyline will play out for the rest of the season.

[tennisgurl]

55 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Still no sign of Kasnian Supergirl.  All that training must take up a lot of her time -- training for what we still don't know.

I get this mental imagine of her running around the frozen tundras of Russia, pushing around farm equipment, and climbing mountains, Rocky IV style, while Kara is dealing with all this crap here. 

[quarks]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

Brainy....you are a being from the future...you being there CHANGES the future. You telling them about Nia aint gonna hurt anything more then you already have.

A concept both Flash and Supergirl desperately need to grasp.

53 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

The Flash was the original TV Flash played by JWS -- but the title indicated he was on Earth-90.  I thought there were 52 Earths + Earth X.  Since when have them been 90 (or more) Earths ?

Since it was necessary for these popular crossover episodes! Pay attention!

Otherwise, I have to agree with the consensus here: 1) since when does Kara officially work for the DEO? 2) If she does legally work for the DEO, surely the president can just call in the DEO's HR and ask, "Hey, who are we writing these paychecks to? Does she have a social security number? Is this social security number tied to any other identities?" 3) how have none of the extras at the DEO figured out that Kara Danvers and Kara Zor-El are the same exact people? It's been four years, people, and you're supposed to be skilled agents.

But also -

It's one thing to yell "We need to know your secret identity" at someone wearing a mask. It's another thing when the person right before you isn't wearing a mask. And for that matter, how do you know that she even has a secret identity, president guy? I mean, we know she does, but for all you know, when she's not at the DEO, she just hangs out at the Fortress of Solitude where she doesn't need a secret identity. 

It was especially weird given that all of the Agent Liberty people were running around wearing masks.

I did like the teaser for the Elseworlds crossover, though, so, good ending note.

[RandomWatcher]

As been pointed out elsewhere....Smallville's Green Arrow?

[Chyromaniac]

1 hour ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

That makes more sense.  But who exactly does the numbering ?  The people on each Earth must think that they are Earth Prime before the discovery of alternate Earths.

The vast majority of the time on these shows the characters do just call their planet(s) "Earth," no matter which one they're talking about. The whole "Earth-?" convention (besides being for our benefit of course) is mostly just a Flash thing. And since their Earth is the main reference point for all the reality-hopping, they get to be Earth-1. Sorry, other Earths.

36 minutes ago, quarks said:

1) since when does Kara officially work for the DEO?

I kind of feel like Kara "works" for the DEO the same way that Sherlock and Watson work for the police. She's not an employee- so she probably wouldn't have, say, a W-2 on file for them to cross check.  However she has been granted access to their facilities, resources, and personnel, in exchange for her "consulting" on DEO cases. But that also means that her privileges only exist so long as the people in charge actually want her there.

[thuganomics85]

Yeah, the whole President's claim that Supergirl needs to reveal her identity is so silly to me, because all she'd have to do is say "I'm Kara Zor-El from Krypton and being Supergirl is my entire job", and call it to day.  Why do they assume she has a secret identity?  For all they know, maybe she and Superman are just chilling at a secret base until either city needs them.  But, nope: the President is being dumb, so now the DEO is Supergirl-less.  Which, yeah, I don't seem them lasting very long without her.  It's not like Alex and Brainy can carry the entire group on their backs (since no one else seems to really do anything but stare at monitors.  Or people.  Just a lot of staring, really!)  Of course, if anything, everyone should know that she's Kara by now, because even if we ignored all of the times she has come in the building out of uniform, just seeing how obvious it is that Alex thinks of her more than just a co-worker, should be a huge neon sign.

Liked getting more insight into Nia.  So, she dreams the future, which is why she was so tired the past few episodes, because she didn't want to fall asleep.  But now she realizes that she can use it to help people, so it's all good, hopefully.  Enjoyed the Kara/Nia/Brainy trio.

Ben has finally been exposed and captured, but unsurprisingly (well, except for our poor, sweet naive heroes on this show), that's just caused the anti-alien movement to get even angrier and more hostile, and will probably only help him in the long run.  I know this show isn't down with the who killing thing, but maybe Manchester had the right idea!

Is there a particular reason that J'onn and Alex have been used so little this season?  I hope Dave Harewood and Chyler Leigh wanted to take it easy for some reason, because both of them feel wasted so far.

Curious to see how the crossover will work (although no Legends already makes me sad.)

[tennisgurl]

Oh snap, Earth 90 (heh, I see what you did there) is gonna be in need of backup. Perhaps the beginnings of a...crisis?!? I love how much play 90s Flash gets through this franchise, at least compared to how it was remember before. 

I also have a lot of questions about Kara being a DEO employee, apparently. Does she get paid? Does she have a retirement plan, does she have to add it to her tax returns with a special Supergirl account? I always thought that she was more of a consultant, or like if Batman talked to more cops than Commissionaire Gordon. Not really an employee, but an expert in her field who comes in to help on certain missions. Or, if you want to get more cynical, Supergirl is basically a volunteer mercenary who just works for one group. The president can certainly tell her they dont want to work with her, but he isnt technically her boss or anything, sending her off to Pam from HR for an exit interview. 

I did kind of love the General telling the lackey that he obviously wasn't Agent Liberty, because he so obviously wasn't leadership material. I wonder if this means that Alex and Brainy will leave the DEO too, or at least, go rouge until Alex is back in charge. 

So, Agent Liberty is in jail, and his band of yahoos are still following him. Of course. And his wife is about as quality as he is, as she is already chanting for him, even after finding out about his multiple murders, and after she was saved by Supergirl...an alien! I have no idea why the show is acting like Manchester is somehow the worse one here. I mean, yeah killing someone in cold blood us deeply morally questionable, but the constant lecturing about how there "must be another way" is already old, and, sorry, but in the fight between the racist murdering terrorist, and the guy whos fiance was murdered horribly by said guy, I root for the non racist murdering terrorist! At least he is actually doing stuff other than giving speeches about hope, and giving mooks a slap on the wrist. 

The Brainy/Kara/Nia team up was fun, and Nia being an alien is cool, and her power has a lot of potential. Although, as others pointed out, them specifically mentioning that only females get these dreams, and Nia is a trans woman, makes me wonder a lot about her species. I think it could actually be interesting if they get more into it, but specifying that its a female thing, and a rare female thing, seems to be more needlessly complex than just saying her whole species can do it, or some random sampling of the populace can.

I keep laughing over how people are freaking out about how they dont know what Supergirls secret identity. Why are they even assuming she has one? And, again, how can no one tell that Kara is Supergirl?! They are literally exactly alike, other than Kara having glasses and a ponytail! Is this the Not Another Teen Movie universe!?! I get that this is just part of the mythology we have to accept, but calling attention to it just makes it silly. Like Lockwood rambling about how no one knows her. Dude, she doesent even wear a mask! 

[Winston Wolfe]

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

Curious to see how the crossover will work (although no Legends already makes me sad.)

Same here.  It was great that previous crossovers ended with Legends because that show's writers always brought their "A" Game to the table.

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

Is there a particular reason that J'onn and Alex have been used so little this season? 

Actually it does seem like J'onn is being used more, but is just as ineffective as ever.  Not only was he unable to shut Manchester down telepathically, J'onn couldn't even figure out where he was.  Speaking of Manchester and his gadgets...where does he get all those wonderful toys?

57 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

And, again, how can no one tell that Kara is Supergirl?! They are literally exactly alike, other than Kara having glasses and a ponytail!

And the two sound alike as well.  Funny aside - a set of identical twins work at a store I've frequented for years.  One wears glasses and the other doesn't - that's the only thing that keeps me from confusing their names.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Winston Wolfe

[mxc90]

17 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Also, are they going to tell Nia that Brainy is an alien too any time soon?

Brainy showed his true form to her before she went under the hypnotic spell and when she came out of it. I guess the writers forgot to have her look puzzled and question him.

Also, Brainy claimed the 3 dopey COL were unconscious. I can see the 2 males but the woman has to be dead. He gave her the ring, she flew up a good distance to hit the roof, and came crashing down with so much force (she didn't land on a cushion). See Manchester, it can be done without calling attention to yourself.

I am curious why Lydia didn't participate in the 5k races after 2014 or is the 2014 hoodie her favorite to wear?

Edited December 4, 2018 by mxc90

[cambridgeguy]

7 hours ago, statsgirl said:

If there was ever an example of (what my mother used to call in Hungarian)  'kicking the ball into your own goal', it's the president firing Supergirl. How does he think the country is going to be save now?

It's a win-win for him.  If she had spilled the beans, then he would have given some ridiculous speech about how he believes in transparency, how nobody is above the law, etc.  Now he can say he demands full disclosure from everyone, even superheroes, and that he isn't afraid of standing up to them.  Either way he can puff himself up and he knows Supergirl won't just sit at home and refuse to do anything while people die if something really big comes up. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 hours ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Actually it does seem like J'onn is being used more, but is just as ineffective as ever.  Not only was he unable to shut Manchester down telepathically, J'onn couldn't even figure out where he was. 

And that's just BULLSHIT. Being telepathic is a big part of his powers. I see how watered down this show has made J'onn, and my brain immediately goes to Justice League--where he used his telepathic powers to reach out to Supes, to find a little girl lost in the woods, and break through that Thanagarian's mind when they were trying to take over Earth.

Of course, I didn't watch, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. Then again, I'm glad I took this off my dvr because from what I'm reading President Scarecrow is a Dickish ASSHOLE. Me no likey. And YET, 1991 Flash showed up too? I am...conflicted.

[silverstream]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Also, are they going to tell Nia that Brainy is an alien too any time soon?

Nia found out Brainy was an alien when they first met, that time the bad guys hacked the image inducers and Brainy's turned off while they were in a pizzeria.

I'm wondering how much the public knows of Lockwood's crimes. I know people can tolerate a lot to keep clinging to their racist beliefs, but Lockwood is a literal serial killer. I have a hard time believing he'd have a substantial base of outspoken support once that's publicly revealed.

[silverstream]

2 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

 And YET, 1991 Flash showed up too? I am...conflicted.

1991 Flash was basically just the tie-in teaser for the upcoming crossover event (I assume?), so you'd be fine just watching the last 3 or so minutes to catch him, especially if you're planning to watch the crossover. You can find the scene on YouTube if you search for "The Flash & The Monitor on Earth-90".

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, silverstream said:

1991 Flash was basically just the tie-in teaser for the upcoming crossover event (I assume?), so you'd be fine just watching the last 3 or so minutes to catch him, especially if you're planning to watch the crossover. You can find the scene on YouTube if you search for "The Flash & The Monitor on Earth-90".

Okay. That was AWESOME. And in his original nerf costume! Are we supposed to know who that villain is?

[Lady Calypso]

12 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

No one has to be president. He assumed a risk for his family when he entered politics. Kara can't help having powers. Sure, she could have declined to use them and remained safe and anonymous her whole life, but is that what the President wants? A world without Supergirl (and presumably non-government employed) Superman?

Ok, fair enough. I've read the various posts on here about this and I concede. At the time of viewing, I thought that Kara should share her identity as well but I fully get why she doesn't, and shouldn't, now.

[quarks]

1 hour ago, silverstream said:

Nia found out Brainy was an alien when they first met, that time the bad guys hacked the image inducers and Brainy's turned off while they were in a pizzeria.

Which is why I'm not sure why they aren't just going ahead and telling Nia about Kara/Supergirl. Nia's an alien, she knows about Brainy already, and she's spending enough time with Kara/Supergirl to notice that they both have the same voice and never appear in the same place.

[Chicago Redshirt]

My impression was that Kara was an employee of the DEO since the pilot, and getting paid off-the-books. IIRC she and Mon-El had to fill out some relationship disclosure thing from Pam in HR, so that is more than just consulting. 

It seems laughable that the President is like, "I need transparency from those who work for my super-secret spy organization that we are still pretending in 2018 and amidst anti-alien fever is the FBI." And insisting on Supergirl's resignation seems like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

[Chicago Redshirt]

57 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Okay. That was AWESOME. And in his original nerf costume! Are we supposed to know who that villain is?

The person who appeared with 90s Flash is...

The Monitor. Or maybe now just A Monitor.

Back before the 80s, DC Comics used the notion of different worlds to explain how the OG Superman and the Justice Society, the  then-contemporary Superman and the Justice League, the Shazam characters and many more could exist without interacting with each other very much. The answer: there was a multiverse of infinite dimensions, each with its own Earth and heroes and villains.

In the 80s, DC made the decision to consolidate all these into a single dimension with a single shared history. So they created a series called Crisis on Infinite Earths, with a villain called the Anti-Monitor who wanted to destroy everything, and he was opposed by the Monitor.  The Monitor tried recruiting bunches of heroes and villains to stop his evil counterpart. The Crisis caused the deaths of both the Barry Allen Flash and Kara Zor-El Supergirl. 

As with most things in comics, the decisions made by one generation of writers eventually get undone. DC brought back both Barry Allen and Kara, and has split from a single universe to a multiverse again.

Googling, it looks like there may have been a race of Monitors at some point.

[statsgirl]

5 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

It's a win-win for him.  If she had spilled the beans, then he would have given some ridiculous speech about how he believes in transparency, how nobody is above the law, etc.  Now he can say he demands full disclosure from everyone, even superheroes, and that he isn't afraid of standing up to them.  Either way he can puff himself up and he knows Supergirl won't just sit at home and refuse to do anything while people die if something really big comes up. 

I had the feeling he was going to be evul when they cast Bruce Boxleitner in the role

2 hours ago, silverstream said:

I'm wondering how much the public knows of Lockwood's crimes. I know people can tolerate a lot to keep clinging to their racist beliefs, but Lockwood is a literal serial killer. I have a hard time believing he'd have a substantial base of outspoken support once that's publicly revealed.

Going by real life, people are willing to take a lot, especially if they think that the aliens deserved it. You just have to look at the KKK and the support those ideas still receive from some.

I'm kind of impressed at the EPs' precognition.  They would have worked out the anti-alien storyline in May, long before political events took their current turn.

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, silverstream said:

I'm wondering how much the public knows of Lockwood's crimes. I know people can tolerate a lot to keep clinging to their racist beliefs, but Lockwood is a literal serial killer. I have a hard time believing he'd have a substantial base of outspoken support once that's publicly revealed.

In fairness, Lockwood personally has killed only 2 aliens as far as we know IIRC: Fiona and a random alien who worked at the Nth Metal plant. I'm doubting that even the DEO knows about his killing the alien at the Nth metal plant, and that they have any real proof tying Lockwood to killing Fiona. 

Even holding him responsible for all the criminal acts of the Children of Liberty, there are not a whole lot of additional actual deaths you could charge against him. He created Parasite 2.0, so has responsibility for the (let's say) half-dozen alien deaths Parasite caused. He tried to have Supergirl killed at Shelley Island and he could then be accused of stealing Healer Alien's doohickey that was keeping him alive.

I obviously could be missing a bunch, but I could see Lockwood or his followers thinking that any charges of killing are trumped-up.

[GHScorpiosRule]

23 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I had the feeling he was going to be evul when they cast Bruce Boxleitner in the role

I felt the opposite. Pre- and post- Scarecrow & Mrs. King, he's played good guys in other shows he's guest starred in. Even his recurring role as an Admiral on NCIS, he's a good guy. I hope he isn't evuhl, but just a dickish asshole. I don't like it, but I can accept that.

Edited December 3, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[iMonrey]

I've completely lost the thread on this story - how did Manchester find out that Ben Lockwood was Agent Liberty?

The dumbest thing in this episode was Manchester throwing this canister at Supergirl, and she just holds it and looks at it like "What's this?" until it explodes in her face. I mean, he's already gotten the best of her once before, she knows he's dangerous. You'd think at this point she'd be smart enough to immediately deflect anything he throws at her instead of just catching it and looking at it. 

[mrspidey]

That whole bit with Kara's "secret identity" is stupid beyond belief. Did these writers never watch Kill Bill?? Kara Danvers is her fake identity! Kara Zor-El is who she really is. Everyone knows that. She doesn't wear a mask and she even wears her true family's sigil right on her damn chest!

This shit might work with any other hero but not the Kryptonian ones. 

[slowpoked]

Y'all have already covered the ridiculousness of Kara being forced to out her identity inside the DEO HQ and being an employee of the DEO. There was a really funny thread on Reddit which referenced all the time Kara Danvers "outed" herself as Supergirl inside DEO with all other DEO agents within earshot and not caring one bit. It included videos of various past episodes. It's really hilarious to watch.

Speaking of that - are we supposed to believe all those stone-cold faced DEO agents do not really know about Kara Danvers and Supergirl? Or were they just waiting to see if she would indeed reveal her Earth identity.

And no, Mr. President: giving in to Liberty's demands to "out" Supergirl isn't listening to people we do not agree with. It is legitimizing a demand of some fringe lunatic with extreme beliefs, not reasonable ones. Liberty hides in masks and the people who carry out his bidding also hides his masks. Supergirl's face is out there for the entire world to see - it's not her fault people at Catco and everywhere else don't recognize a bespectacled face from a glasses-free face and with flowing blown dry hair. Whatever happened to "we do not negotiate with terrorists", as Liberty and his ilk were. 

2 hours ago, mrspidey said:

That whole bit with Kara's "secret identity" is stupid beyond belief. Did these writers never watch Kill Bill?? Kara Danvers is her fake identity! Kara Zor-El is who she really is. Everyone knows that. She doesn't wear a mask and she even wears her true family's sigil right on her damn chest!

Thank you for putting it more eloquently that I ever could. I appreciate them tackling the hard topics this season, but this, and the other revisionist history they've done is getting so hard to stomach. 

To this point, this is also assuming that Supergirl's human identity is her real identity and this human identity is hiding behind her alien powers. You can't have your cake and eat it too, Liberty. Sit down in prison and make way for Kasnian Supergirl. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by slowpoked

[MarkHB]

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I had the feeling he was going to be evul when they cast Bruce Boxleitner in the role

It was originally going to be Brent Spiner; I find myself imagining how that would have played out.

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I've completely lost the thread on this story - how did Manchester find out that Ben Lockwood was Agent Liberty?

I think that guy he was questioning / torturing actually knew (or surmised based on their Lockwood Steel clubhouse) the truth.

[statsgirl]

Spiner can play bad guy too. I agree it would have been interesting to see him in the role.

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 minutes ago, MarkHB said:

It was originally going to be Brent Spiner; I find myself imagining how that would have played out.

You mean 

Spiner will always be Puck from The Gargoyles for me!

Edited December 3, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[silverstream]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

In fairness, Lockwood personally has killed only 2 aliens as far as we know IIRC: Fiona and a random alien who worked at the Nth Metal plant. I'm doubting that even the DEO knows about his killing the alien at the Nth metal plant, and that they have any real proof tying Lockwood to killing Fiona. 

Even holding him responsible for all the criminal acts of the Children of Liberty, there are not a whole lot of additional actual deaths you could charge against him.

There's at least two more - when Mercy and Otis recruit him in E3, they say they "found [his] DNA in the dirt next to the bodies of those Maaldorian twins", an it's implied that he and his "friends" killed a lot more than that. And that's before the Agent Liberty thing even got started.

Though you're probably right that the DEO doesn't know anything about most of this. It does make me wonder though if anybody in-universe is compiling a list of aliens that have mysteriously gone missing in recent months. CatCo should get on that!