S04.E09: The Watchers On The Wall 2014.06.08

[MrsRafaelBarba]

So Meat Cleaver Hottie's name is Hobb, a cook for the Night Watch.

 

 

Hey Boo!

[wayne67]

Ok I have to say that this was the most boring episode of Game of Thrones I remember watching. I thought the fact that this show bouncing from plot line to plot line dedicating about 3 minutes to each story progression was tiresome. This was way worse, an entire episode spent on a single plot told from 2 pov's sam's and Jon, neither of whom died . 

 

If I got this straight, the Wildlings sent an army of roughly 300 ? with 2 giants and 1 mammoth against a force of 100 men in a relatively highly defended fortified position even though there was a warg with an owl who could have simply gone back to report to Mance to send a full scale attack. This episode was essentially spent showing what amounts to a probe attack by a scouting force against what was supposed to be a larger opponent. My problem was the warg gathered enough information to render this entire battle redundant and also there's still 99700 wildlings around so I don't see the point of this battle. Yes the Wall's standing has greater plot relevance theoretically except that nothing much has changed for either side after the battle, The night watch lost 30 ? men and the Wildling super army lost about 300 ? maybe ? 

 

That and I don't think Jon Snow's plan makes any sense, even if he kills Mance, the Wildlings already know that the White Walkers are marching and even if Mance dies, they'll still want to be in the South to get away from them. The Wildlings seem to be the rats of the True North escaping the sinking ship. The only possible way that the Wildlings would make sense is if Jon tells them he'll get them amnesty and they can move down South and take back Winterfell. Though I doubt that will happen, the Wildlings are a threat perhaps but they're just running away from White Walkers who have an army of dead men at their disposal and I've yet to hear/see Sam giving the Night Watch dragon glass arrows for use against the White Walkers. 

 

That said I did enjoy seeing Pip die, which was odd because Pip was one of my favorite tertiary characters with his offbeat sense of sarcastic humor, Ygritte elicited no reaction other than, hurry up and shoot Jon already so this episode has some relevance in resolving one of the many many plot lines. 

 

I really hope the season finale adds something to the overall ongoing plots to compensate for this relatively dull episode 9. 

[Lady S.]

Seriously, how long is the wall?  I know how high it is, but how many miles long.  Can’t folks just go AROUND the wall?  What is on either side of the wall?  The wall has to butt up against something?    Or is it just free standing?  If so, I say again, can’t they have gone around it?  Even if it took weeks to travel to one end or the other??  But then again, we wouldn’t have had this battle scene if it were that easy.

Here's the HBO map. The western border of the Wall is mountains, the eastern border is a bay, which Osha mentioned going down to get South. But Mance is trying to organize a mass migration including non-fighting women, children, any eldery, and all their livestock and worldly possessions, so going through a gate is a more practical option than having all of them climb mountains or build a shit-ton of rafts.

 

I guess I mean there are a very few places/ways for an attack on the Wall to occur; you'd think the primary drilling of the Night's Watch would be less focused on hand-to-hand combat, and more on dropping-heavy-and/or-burning-things-on-persons-trying-to-raise the-gate (rather than staring dumbfounded while be-mammothed giants prize upon the gate).  A wall is only as strong as its holes, after all.  It doesn't do much good to have a super-talll wall, if you have no plan to keep the gate from being opened from the ground.

For the past hundreds of years or so they haven't been so much guarding the Wall as hunting troublesome wilding raiders beyond the Wall, so defense of the castle and the gate has gotten lax.

 

But the society, the methodology, and the physical ecosystem of the north continue to make no sense.

I'm kind of left feeling that Martin's definition of "realistic fantasy" is nothing more than "you'll only get obvious magic when I feel like it!"

Well, yeah, this is a continent with years-long seasons. What I don't understand is why anyone would be living north of the Wall to begin with. We're told the wildings' ancestors just happened to be living on the wrong side when the Wall was built, but why the fuck would anyone just happen to live that far north? Especially back in those days when white walkers were known to be real and came from the far north, the mass southern exodus should have happened after the white walkers were defeated.  And it seems kinda hard to miss a giant wall of ice going up. Did people think "oh yay, those pesky ice demons are gone, let's settle down in the frozen wilderness"?

 

There's an interview with Neil Marshall at WiC.net where he says the Jon/Ygritte's corpse shot was slow-mo, even though it didn't look like it.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Lady S.

[bluvelvet]

Ollie's parents we're killed by Ygritte not the Thenn ( or at least one of them was). Thenn dude just said he would eat them, I remember because I thought the kid would tell Jon that a redheaded woman killed his parents. I'm happy Ollie got his justice.

[dramachick]

Rose Leslie did a great job as Ygritte.  What a sweet wrap gift.  I was a fan of hers before GOT, and I look forward to her future projects.

 

Rose Leslie on Ygritte's Last Act

 

Leslie filmed her final scene nearly nine months ago, and the actress said that watching the episode over the weekend with a friend in New Orleans, where she is currently shooting the indie “Sticky Notes” for director Amanda Harlib, brought back some powerful memories.

 

“Once I had died in Jon Snow’s arms, that was it. I got very emotional, I was very raw,” Leslie said. “It had just been such a phenomenal experience for me. I blubbed like a little baby. Once the scene was done, I was surrounded by crew and producers and presented with a wrap gift, which was my bow, Ygritte’s bow. The handle was replaced with white leather and on one side they had sewn on a silver plaque that was engraved with ‘Kissed by fire,’ and then on the other side was the emblem of a rose. That just made me cry even more.”

 

 

[Macbeth]

Ok I have to try to get through to the show runners somehow when it comes to Jon Snow.

 

When the eagle scratched his face last season.  No.

 

When I saw Thenn pound Jon's face into the anvil.  Hell No.

 

Not.  The.  Face!

Edited June 10, 2014 by Macbeth

[toesocks]

Where did Ygritte go after she killed Pyp?  It seemed like Sam sat there cradling him for a long time before he actually died, and the whole time, I was waiting for Ygritte to let another arrow fly.

 

Ygritte looked like she was shooting and barely waiting for the body to fall before moving on to the next target. Sam was crouched down, so my guess is she didn't see him.

[mojoween]

This article about the CGI of the Wall is completely worth it just for the last picture in the story. I almost want to print it and put it in a frame.

[Constantinople]

Upon reflection, I realized that Grenn saved the day twice.

 

Once, of course, when he and his "Grenn Team Six", as someone called it, held the gate and killed the giant at the cost of all of their lives.

 

The other was when Grenn, in effect, relieved Slynt from command when Grenn lied to Slynt, saying that Thorne needed him down in the compound.

[hypnotoad]

 

What I don't understand is why anyone would be living north of the Wall to begin with.

 

I've wondered for years why my ancestors crossed the ocean and decided to live in the frozen tundra of northern Minnesota! I guess it happens. (And yes I'm aware we didn't have White Walkers running around, still it's super cold there in northern Minnesota!)

 

I thought this was a terrific episode - the tracking shot across all the fighting in the yard was beautifully done. I haven't cared a bit about Ygritte since the moment we met her, so I was happy to finally see her die.

 

Ghost kicked ass. I have to admit, I got a little choked up at the group at the gate reciting their vow.

Edited June 10, 2014 by hypnotoad

[Gudzilla]

 

Ollie's parents we're killed by Ygritte not the Thenn ( or at least one of them was). Thenn dude just said he would eat them, I remember because I thought the kid would tell Jon that a redheaded woman killed his parents. I'm happy Ollie got his justice.

Thank you! I thought I was taking crazy pills. I've gotten tired of telling everyone that Ygritte killed his father.

[LittleIggy]

I hate wildlings. I was so happy when Ygritte was killed by the kid. Glad Sam and his girl survived.

Edited June 10, 2014 by LittleIggy

[lawless]

I seem to be totally alone here, but I was sad to see Ygritte die.  I liked her.  She put on this tough front the whole time, but when it came down to it, this was the second time she was unable to kill Jon.  She still loved Jon and I am sure he loved her.  Of course it was never meant to be.  How he held her while the battle raged on was ridiculous, though.

I felt that given the course she had taken, that it kinda had to be that way, but I also felt sad for her too.  She came from an incredibly harsh environment and culture, especially for women, and she was a harsh person as a result.  But she wasn't a sadist like Ramsey and Joffrey, she was just hard.  The situation with the White Walkers has obviously made the Wildlings extremely desperate, and I sympathize with their predicament.  The Thenns need to be scoured from the earth, they are human monsters, even the other Wildlings seem appalled by them.  But everyone else, including the Giants and the Mammoths, are just desperately running from their lives and trying to escape White Walkers.  The Wall is keeping them trapped and will kill them all if they can't get past it.  It's very difficult, and Ygritte's been in an extremely difficult spot.  She came over the Wall because of John Snow, most likely.  She might not have been chosen or volunteered to be part of the southern invasion group but for that.  He was a spy and while I think she would have run off and abandoned the Wildlings for him, he would not do that for her.  So she was pretty stuck.  Any sign of weakness or conflicted loyalties and the Thenns would probably have raped and eaten her.  That, and I do think she believed in what Mance is doing, and felt some loyalty toward her fellow Wildlings.  All the same though, she pretty brutally killed innocent people, which hardened my heart toward her too.  But I have some sympathy for the Wildlings and their predicament even as I root for the Night's Watch to stop them and defend the Wall.

 

I have to say, I have hated Allister Thorne because he's been a mean, pig-headed bully, but he acquitted himself very respectfully this episode.  He handled himself like a total boss the whole time, and his fight with Tormand rocked.  He walked the walk as well as talked the talk, and I can see why men like Benjen Stark, Joer Mormont, and Yoren probably respected him, even if they didn't like him.

 

And RIP to Grenn and his crew.  I didn't think they would die, as terrifying as the scene of that Giant running at the inner gate, totally going for broke.  I really felt every side's desperation to win in that scene, even the Giant's.  Finding out they didn't make it was really sad.

Edited June 10, 2014 by lawless

[Isazouzi]

If I got this straight, the Wildlings sent an army of roughly 300 ? with 2 giants and 1 mammoth against a force of 100 men

 

For what it's worth, the show runners said in a EW article that there were supposed to be several giants and mammoths but the budget didn't allow it.

 

What I don't understand is why anyone would be living north of the Wall to begin with.

 

Why do people live in the Sahara desert? Why do people live in Iceland? The list can go on.

 

Ok I have to try to get through to the show runners somehow when it comes to Jon Snow.

 

When the eagle scratched his face last season.  No.

 

When I saw Thenn pound Jon's face into the anvil.  Hell No.

 

Not.  The.  Face!

 

You have nothing to fear, Jon's pretty nose was still intact. When the Thenn bashed Jon's face on that anvil and his nose was only bleeding a little, I was taken out of the story for a second. His nose should be broken. But no, Jon is still as pretty as ever. Not that I want him to be disfigured, but it bothers me when tv people are regularly hit in the face and don't seem the worse for it. I know the Thenn isn't the Mountain, but dude is strong enough to bash Jon's face in.

[Jeebus Cripes]

9) Every scene with Master Aemon is always great since he has so much to add about the back story.

 

I love me some Maester Aemon. The actor playing him gets my undivided attention every time he speaks. Sometimes, I wish there would be a flashback episode with all of these dead characters we keep hearing about. I would love to see what young Aemon got up to, and to know who the lady he spoke of was.

 

Wow. I don't think anyone has ever liked Ser Allister until last night. He was pulling out some Errol Flynn-like moves that were truly inspiring. His fight against Tormund was awesome. Plus his willingness to admit to Jon that he should have closed the tunnels was great.

 

I was so eager to see him get killed, but the second he started fighting with Tormund, I was suddenly Team Allister. It was very confusing.

 

Thinking that they should have imported Cersei to the Wall for this battle. She can terrorize entire armies with her immobilizing bitchface. 

 

Bwah! I must find a use for "immobilizing bitchface" in conversation as soon as possible.

[Isazouzi]

 I would love to see what young Aemon got up to, and to know who the lady he spoke of was.

 

Could she be Jon Snow's secret mother? Could Aemon Targaryen be Jon Snow's real father? Everytime we hear about someone's past love, I can't help but think "Maybe they're Jon Snow's parents!" I've probably suspected everyone and their brother!

[terrymct]

Could she be Jon Snow's secret mother? Could Aemon Targaryen be Jon Snow's real father? Everytime we hear about someone's past love, I can't help but think "Maybe they're Jon Snow's parents!" I've probably suspected everyone and their brother!

 

 

Ned Stark's mysterious and beloved sister might have gotten up to something.

[ShannaB]

Newbie and happy to be here.

 

I can't find the post right now but one of the posters wanted to know why anyone would want to live in the North beyond The Wall.  If I remember correctly many were criminals escaping the law but others just wanted to be free from any rulers of the South. Many were probably banished to the North.  I am not a book reader so I got this from earlier episodes.  The Wildlings are now at the panic point and want to escape the White Walkers and Wights so, of course, they want to get beyond the Wall.

 

I actually loved this episode and I didn't think anything could beat Blackwater but if you put this in perspective, The North is the most important locale in GOT.  All the political bloody shuffling will mean nothing in the long run.  Yes, the political potting it is fascinating to watch but the Throne will eventually belong to a SURVIVOR.  At this point I think Stannis is the only who believes that there is a threat so at least some of South is getting a clue.

[NoWillToResist]

If a giant can just lift the outer gate and open it, why is the complicated plan with the mammoth? Just have two or three giants to open the gate and hold it while 1000 warriors storm inside.

 

I don’t think the giants thought they’d be strong enough to do it. I suspect we’re supposed to think that the giant got extra strong, riding the rage he felt as a result of his damaged mammoth.

 

RIP, cute bearded friend of Jon. I never knew your name but I liked you a lot.

 

I was impressed with the long, circular shot of all the fights within the compound…must’ve been a bitch to time and choreograph.

 

Figured Ygritte would die since she didn’t kill Gilly and baby Sam in an earlier ep. Gotta try and make the audience care that she’s dead. Didn’t work for me, but the effort put into it just screamed “we’re going to kill her so let’s redeem her a little!”

 

And fuck right off with Jon and Ygritte having such a long ‘moment’ there at her death. Considering how uncivilized the wildlings and the tattooed assholes are, I thought it was very kind of them to ignore Jon at his most vulnerable. *eye roll*

 

Also, Jon, your big-ass wolf took out ONE guy. ONE. He then hunkered down to a snack instead of helping out some more. No biscuits for him! I think you need to re-train him. It seemed a waste of time to trot out that CGI for one measly kill.

 

The scythe and the big arrow which took a guy clear off the wall and down to the ground were the only things that made any real impression on me. The remaining 48 minutes or so was just blood, slash, hash, fight, stab, puncture, bleh.

 

 

Once the fighting in the Castle and the charge toward the wall from the north ended, everyone seemed to be walking around without wondering whether the gates and the six young men had held.  I kept expecting to see everyone chatting in the Castle yard while a pissed off giant emerged from the tunnel.

 

YES! I was all “…um, guys? Aren’t you forgetting something kind of important?”

 

When the Thenn bashed Jon's face on that anvil and his nose was only bleeding a little, I was taken out of the story for a second. His nose should be broken

.

 

Yeah, I called bullshit on that too. Hell, the blow might have killed him (bones in his nose jammed into his brain)

[Aethermancer]

For what it's worth, the show runners said in a EW article that there were supposed to be several giants and mammoths but the budget didn't allow it.

 

 

Why do people live in the Sahara desert? Why do people live in Iceland? The list can go on.

 

 

You have nothing to fear, Jon's pretty nose was still intact. When the Thenn bashed Jon's face on that anvil and his nose was only bleeding a little, I was taken out of the story for a second. His nose should be broken. But no, Jon is still as pretty as ever. Not that I want him to be disfigured, but it bothers me when tv people are regularly hit in the face and don't seem the worse for it. I know the Thenn isn't the Mountain, but dude is strong enough to bash Jon's face in.

Not all noses break easily.  My nose is about the same in structure as Kitt's is and it's been pretty resilient and never broken on me.  I used to wrestle up to the collegiate level, and pretty much have supported my body weight (and more) on my face from time to time usually with someone actively pushing down on me..  It not breaking is a byproduct of having the bone where the cartilage  attaches not protrude much.  Someone with a more aquiline nose is more prone to have it break. 

 

I've even been in a car accident that resulted in my head cracking against a solid metal surface, but from behind, not the front, and the bones are weaker in the back.   No fracture, but a cut that produced a hell of a lot of blood.  My head easily hit as hard as they showed Jon Snow getting hit.  I was able to walk away from it without a concussion, but had to go to the ER to get my scalp stitched back together.

 

That said, he could very well have a fractured skull, cheekbone, or chin.  Fractured chin/cheekbone is just something that you have to live with and the treatment is basically 'just don't touch it'.  (jaw fracture is a whole other beast)

Edited June 10, 2014 by Aethermancer

[insubordination]

 

RIP, cute bearded friend of Jon. I never knew your name but I liked you a lot.

Hear hear! RIP - More nice people on this show please. There was something good about him.

 

I was talking to a colleague about the episode today and he said, 'What did you think of the big death?"

I replied, "What big death?"  thinking maybe he meant last week. He actually meant Ygritte. I admit to quite liking the Jon/Ygritte scenes last season - teen though they were. However, since she started massacring random people and seeming a bit too scorned, I've cooled towards her dramatically.  I didn't mind her 'You know nothing' (because I'm fucking dead now, so don't). It would have been a hard line to deliver in any believable way, so I think the actress did the best she could.

 

 

I don't mind war/battle movies in general, so I thought this was pretty cool with some nice gimmicky elements. I actually thought the 100 000 army was a bluff or I had missed something, but I guess it's there - giants and wooly mammoths and all. 

 

 I was pleasantly surprised that Jon came through alive. I honestly thought he was going to die at any second- like maybe a hammer to the head.  It's true he's not the most charismatic of characters, but he's not supposed to be all swagger. He is a good boy though and pretty, and Caitlin couldn't love him the poor lil bastard - so he's underdog-ish. I guess things look dire for his fate then.  It will lose a bit of momentum if he dies next week though. Killing him in this episode would have made more sense, so maybe he's safe for now.

 

I liked the hand-to-hand scenes. Very well done.  I wasn't particularly on either side apart from wanting Jon to succeed because of the aforementioned underdoggishness (underdogdom?) and seeing his balls drop and all that.  The Night's Watch 'gentlemen'  have been such assholes in general,  that I can't get behind them really. I have also enjoyed the main Wildling redhead guy for some reason and am glad we will see him again.

 

I think the show made the right choice by showing this battle as a standalone. Inter-cutting it with Cersei's delighted face would have been jarring. Still I'm desperate to know Tyrion's specific fate. I don't trust this show.  I actually had the stupid thought of 'I hope I don't die before next week, 'cos I gotta know what happens to Tyrion."  I know nothing!

 

 

Ned Stark's mysterious and beloved sister might have gotten up to something.

I've never watched any episode twice, so my memory is rusty. Was she the one Robert Baratheon was in love with? Could Jon Snow be one of his bastards/potential heir a la Gendry. I hope not. I can't imagine Jon Snow on that throne.  Where is Gendry anyway?

 

I would like some of the separate storylines to unite. Any alliance between Dany/Jon/Stannis/Arya/ would be welcomed by me. They could all go against King's Landing/Lannisters. Then you throw LF/Sansa into the mix along with Bolton & offspring. I can't wait till it all comes to a head. I am so impatient.

 

I'm still sulky about Prince O.

 

I might be wrong - but I don't think we saw any boobies this week.

Edited June 10, 2014 by insubordination

[Isazouzi]

Ned Stark's mysterious and beloved sister might have gotten up to something.

 

That's who I was thinking about. ;-)

 

I can't find the post right now but one of the posters wanted to know why anyone would want to live in the North beyond The Wall.  If I remember correctly many were criminals escaping the law but others just wanted to be free from any rulers of the South. Many were probably banished to the North.  I am not a book reader so I got this from earlier episodes.  The Wildlings are now at the panic point and want to escape the White Walkers and Wights so, of course, they want to get beyond the Wall.

 

I actually loved this episode and I didn't think anything could beat Blackwater but if you put this in perspective, The North is the most important locale in GOT.  All the political bloody shuffling will mean nothing in the long run.  Yes, the political potting it is fascinating to watch but the Throne will eventually belong to a SURVIVOR.  At this point I think Stannis is the only who believes that there is a threat so at least some of South is getting a clue.

 

Essos seems a lot nicer in some parts than the North. That's where I would have fled.

 

Anyway, you're right when you say the North is the most important part of the story. It's interesting that we, viewers, are like the Southerners, more interested in the petty games played by the Houses for the Iron throne, and bored by what's happening up north. It's a nice parallel. But important doesn't necessarily means interesting.

 

Not all noses break easily.  My nose is about the same in structure as Kitt's is and it's been pretty resilient and never broken on me.  I used to wrestle up to the collegiate level, and pretty much have supported my body weight (and more) on my face from time to time usually with someone actively pushing down on me..  It not breaking is a byproduct of having the bone where the cartilage  attaches not protrude much.  Someone with a more aquiline nose is more prone to have it break. 

 

I've even been in a car accident that resulted in my head cracking against a solid metal surface, but from behind, not the front, and the bones are weaker in the back.   No fracture, but a cut that produced a hell of a lot of blood.  My head easily hit as hard as they showed Jon Snow getting hit.  I was able to walk away from it without a concussion, but had to go to the ER to get my scalp stitched back together.

 

That said, he could very well have a fractured skull, cheekbone, or chin.  Fractured chin/cheekbone is just something that you have to live with and the treatment is basically 'just don't touch it'.  (jaw fracture is a whole other beast)

 

Yes, but were you still pretty afterwards? ;-)

[Mars477]

Damn it.  Rose Leslie is vastly more interesting than Kit Harrington will ever be.

[Aethermancer]

Yes, but were you still pretty afterwards? ;-)

 

Not even a bloody nose.  But after a wrestling match?   No one looks pretty.  Nothing like exerting yourself at 100% for several minutes, getting all sweaty and having a purple face for being not pretty.  Oh and "mat-burn", that's a thing, only it happens to your face.

 

However, I clean up well.   ;)

Edited June 10, 2014 by Aethermancer

[Drogo]

 

I would love to see what young Aemon got up to, and to know who the lady he spoke of was.

 

I believe in Aemon's day the Targaryens were only interested in other Targaryens. 

[fantique]

I was very disappointed with the techniques the Night Watch had to guard the Wall, given the centuries (I think) they've had to master the art.  The scythe and the barrels of oil were neat tricks, but you'd expect more -- yes, like pumping water down the wall, other means of dislodging climbers, and, you know, stopping the lumbering giant's casually strolling up to the gate and messing with it.  I guess I was expecting seeing some more clever anti-siege weapons. 

 

Actually I think that one of the things they showed previous to this episode is that people in command of Castle Black take their safety for granted. They just thought for so long that the Wall was impregnable and therefore it does need that much defense. And Wildlings trying to cross have always previously been scattered bands of misfits easily deterred. They got cocky and didn't listen to Jon Snow because the Wildlings uniting is unprecedented. Stupid to rest on their laurels but yeah... I was not expecting their defenses to hold much of the opponent back TBH

[Constantinople]

Anyway, you're right when you say the North is the most important part of the story. It's interesting that we, viewers, are like the Southerners, more interested in the petty games played by the Houses for the Iron throne, and bored by what's happening up north. It's a nice parallel. But important doesn't necessarily means interesting.

I think there are two primary reasons why the "Southerners", or "Easterners" in Daenerys's case, are more interesting than the Northerners.

The King's Landing story line moves at a brisk pace and even Daenerys's story moves like lightning compared to the WWW storyline (Walkers, Watch & Wildings).  Are the Walkers heading for the Wall or just walking around in circles? Who knows? As for the Wildlings, we've seen Hot Pie more recently than Mance Rayder, and, until this episode, much of the Watch this season has been squabbling about how to prepare for Wildlings or what to do about Gilly.

The other Northern related story lines make even molasses appear wild and reckless (leaving aside the Boltons since by "North", I mean the parties around the Wall or north of it). Except for a brief sojourn at Craster's, Bran's just sort of heading North again. At the end of Season 3 the Lord of Light told Stannis to get his ass up North; we last saw him filling out a bank loan application. And it's not as if anyone would object to Stannis heading North. Tywin would want Stannis to head North for the same reason Slynt advised Thorne to let Jon lead an expedition against the mutineers at Craster's: you get rid of a troublesome rival, or an enemy, or perhaps both.

The second reason is that we see much more of the politics and motivations of the Southern characters. We see very little of that in the North.

Mance is leading a coalition of wildling tribes that maybe, just barely, hate the Watch and fear the Walkers more than they hate each other. Even if they didn't hate each other, there would still be disagreements and discussions about getting past the Wall. But we never see any of this, nor did we see any of how Mance assembled them other than "I told them if we didn't unite, we'd die". If all we got from the King's Landing storyline was Tyrion saying "We must all hang together, or Stannis will all hang us seperately", we'd be pretty bored by that too.

We get a little more with the Watch, but not much. We know Thorne hates Jon Snow, but we don't know why. Did Thorne & Benjen Stark have a feud? Does Thorne resent Jon because Thorne came from a relatively humble knighly background, had to work his ass off to become a knight and then was exiled to the Watch because he pissed off the wrong lord? Does Thorne have something personal against bastards? Who knows? For that matter, we don't know why Thorne was selected as the Acting Commander after Mormont's death, and why Maester Aemon feels free to unilaterally decide the outcome of Jon's trial.  People just behave the way they behave with little or no elaboration.

[Drogo]

If we have to have a Wildling woman at The Wall I think Ygritte would have been much more exciting than Gilly, but perhaps she'll prove me wrong.  More likely, not. 

 

Speaking of vanilla characters, if I don't see Bran for the remainder of the season I'll be fine with that.  Bran was adorable in S1, now he's this awkward goofy looking teen with a Mickey Dolenz haircut and a storyline that could bore a tortoise. 

 

Again... the hair... he's just like... a really ugly woman...

 

Edited June 10, 2014 by Drogo

[peggy06]

The Wall-related storylines have always been my least-favorite*, and I don't care for extended battle scenes, so there wasn't much for me in this episode. I can appreciate the technical achievement though. Very impressive for a TV show. Like many, my favorite scene was the six at the gate reciting their oath as the giant approached. (Though I didn get a little nervous they weren't going to finish it before he finished them.)

 

Nor surprised by Ygritte's death. I wasn't a fan even from the beginning (because of the writing, not the actress particularly). So I didn't much care what happened to her, and she certainly wasn't redeemed for me by not killing 2 people the other week. But either she or Jon had to die, and she was much more expendable. She had two chances to kill him; she didn't do it the first time, so obviously she wasn't going to do it now. But Jon wouldn't kill her and wouldn't be allowed to save her either. It had gone too far for that, for either of them. I must say Jon came up a lot in my estimation. Looking back, his path toward leadership was actually well-developed. I can see him continuing as a major player. Now watch them kill him off next episode.

 

*Correction: least-favorite after Bran and the warging stuff. I forgot that, which just shows you.

Edited June 10, 2014 by peggy06

[KurlyGrl]

I have to agree that the “Bran” storyline is strange.  I mean, I get where the other storylines are trying to go.  They have SOME logic and purpose to them.  They all have flaws and holes in their plot devices.  But they make sense.  You can see how they are all intertwined in one way or another. And they are all leading to one thing. Well, “The Wall” is kind of a separate story, but still.  But I’ll be damned if I can figure how Bran fits into all of this. 

 

 

No one seems to be shipping Sam and Gilly, even though that “ship” has sailed.  They might as well get married now.  I find them sweet, and Sam is a good and honorable man.  I can see how one thinks GIlly is annoying though.  She is a tad bit whiney.  But I like their storyline and am curious as to how it will turn out.  Isn’t Sam a noble?  Or High Born at the very least?  Just sent to the wall because his father thought him useless or something?  And Gilly is a, well, commoner, I guess.  Sam will absolutely want to marry her.  But now he wears the blacks. 

 

 

So I say this in my best imitation of a deep voiced, suspense filled, TV announcer, at the end of a soap opera episode.  WILL Sam and Gilly find the love they each deserve?  WILL Jon make it safely back to the wall?  WILL all the dead turn into White Walkers before anyone can burn them all?  IS Slynt being bitch slapped for cowardice? IS Thorne really dead, or being stitched up by blind Maester Aemon?  DOES Jon Snow really know nothing?  Stay tuned for next week’s episode!

[Meredith Quill]

I believe in Aemon's day the Targaryens were only interested in other Targaryens. 

 

Providing there were enough Targs to go around, one would assume.

[proserpina65]

Also, Jon, your big-ass wolf took out ONE guy. ONE.

 

That we saw.  For all we know, Ghost might've taken out a dozen, but the production budget being what it was, we only got to see him kill the one wildling.  Just like we only got one mammoth - those things are bloody expensive.

Quote

Once the fighting in the Castle and the charge toward the wall from the north ended, everyone seemed to be walking around without wondering whether the gates and the six young men had held.  I kept expecting to see everyone chatting in the Castle yard while a pissed off giant emerged from the tunnel.

YES! I was all “…um, guys? Aren’t you forgetting something kind of important?”

 

 

I think if the giant had made it past Grenn Team Six (love that btw), he'd have already been rampaging in the courtyard, long before the battle ended.

[TexasChic]

Maybe it's my disinterest in battle scenes, my ADD, the fact that I've read the books, or all those combined, but I've tried twice to watch this episode and just can't pay attention all the way through it. I'm reading all these comments on what happened, and all I remember is Ygritte died and there was a giant. I guess I'll give it a shot again tonight.

[LadyArcadia]

Maybe it's my disinterest in battle scenes, my ADD, the fact that I've read the books, or all those combined, but I've tried twice to watch this episode and just can't pay attention all the way through it. I'm reading all these comments on what happened, and all I remember is Ygritte died and there was a giant. I guess I'll give it a shot again tonight.

 

I saw quite a bit in this episode. It actually surprises me to hear some people found it boring!  Jon became a leader, the rest of the crows (rapists, thieves, criminals) became heroes, we lost 2 out of 4 of Jon's closest friends, jerky-face commander redeemed himself and taught Jon what it's like to truly be a leader, and there was quite a bit of action and fantastic cinematography!

 

For the most part I think people expect explosions and *in your face* action all the time. Not speaking directly to you, of course. But, most folks these days want action! action! action!  For me, when there's all action and no substance, that is boring!

 

I thought this episode was perfection.  The only thing I'd change is we should have seen more buildup to the battle. I think people weren't as invested in the characters as they could have been because of the lack of screen time.

 

What I found most compelling is my husband (also a bookwalker) was rooting for the "good guys" to win.  Until I challenged him on who the good guys really were. We see the Wildlings as unruly savages. Ultimately, they're just trying to survive. There's an argument for both sides in this battle.

[CeeBeeGee]

Taget:

Every scene with Master Aemon is always great since he has so much to add about the back story.

Jeebus Cripes:

I love me some Maester Aemon. The actor playing him gets my undivided attention every time he speaks. Sometimes, I wish there would be a flashback episode with all of these dead characters we keep hearing about. I would love to see what young Aemon got up to, and to know who the lady he spoke of was.

I love Aemon! Fascinating character and so serene--apparently the Targaryan crazy passed him over. Imagine how different history might've been had he assumed the throne? No Mad King, no Robert's Rebellion, the Starks might still be together and living happily in Winterfell...I love wondering about people whose stories were never told, and I love that there's a secret Targaryan--Dany isn't quite all on her own :)

[Miss chi chi]

The music that played after the worg said, "it's time" scared the bejeezus out of me.

[Gudzilla]

 

Could she be Jon Snow's secret mother? Could Aemon Targaryen be Jon Snow's real father? 

I think whoever Aemon was talking about might be a teeny bit too old to be Jon's mother considering Jon was a teenager at the start of the series.

 

 

The Thenns need to be scoured from the earth, they are human monsters, even the other Wildlings seem appalled by them.

Yeah when the guy who fucks bears is put off by you...

[BigBeagle]

 

Yeah when the guy who fucks bears is put off by you...

Heh. Just goes to prove that even bear-f***ers have standards.

 

I want to second what Lady Arcadia posted above ... I fully expected to be bored out of my skin by this episode, mainly because the Night's Watch storyline has been such a non-starter for me. Instead, I found this one of the most engrossing hours of the series. The ep started on a light note, with Sam trying to find some legal loophole that would let him get into Gilly's pants, then ramped up nice and evenly until all hell broke loose with the battle. Even then, there were plenty of nice character moments (Sam and Pyp, Grenn Team Six, Boss Crow and Jon, etc.).

 

The only disappointment I had was finding out Gilly didn't cave in Slynt's head with a frozen leg of lamb.

[Conan Troutman]

But in this case, we REALLY do not want an army of the dead (or undead) to swarm up and over everything.

 

I do.

[Artsda]

I wish Ghost would have gone with Jon. I really also enjoyed the entire episode with one focus.

[lawless]

Yeah when the guy who fucks bears is put off by you...

Wait a second -- I just remembered something.  Didn't Mance say "everyone hates the Cave People" to Jon so long ago? Given that he referred to them as the "Cave People," rather than "the Thenns," are we to understand that there is another group of Wildlings up North that are more hated than the cannibal Thenns?  Good god.

[mojoween]

Interesting little article about Neil Fingleton, who played the giant killed by Grenn Team Six.

[TexasChic]

Okay, I was finally able to watch it all the way through and pay attention, yay! I guess it was just my ADD and the fact that I don't really like battle scenes that made it so tough for me. This time I had a MUCH better appreciation for the episode. So that was just Mance testing them, and it almost wiped them out. I don't see what Jon hopes to accomplish going out there by himself, but I guess he'd have a better chance of sneaking up on Mance than if he had a group of guys with him. And I agree that the music was pretty freaking scary! Very nice choice.

 

What I find interesting is off in Kings Landing they're messing around having weddings are trials, while the wildlings are literally busting down their door! And even that isn't as scary as what is driving the wildlings to do it! This fight really brings home how petty all the rest of it is. No one is going to give a crap who's on the iron throne when they're all getting turned into zombies are what ever the hell those things are.

[paigow]

Tormund Strannixbane: This is NOT the work of a cook!

 

[Constantinople]

Anyway, you're right when you say the North is the most important part of the story. It's interesting that we, viewers, are like the Southerners, more interested in the petty games played by the Houses for the Iron throne, and bored by what's happening up north. It's a nice parallel. But important doesn't necessarily means interesting.

 

To elaborate a little more, another reason some may find the North boring is that Jon Snow, the pre-eminent Northern character to date, is right back where he was in Season 2, trying to assassinate Mance Rayder.  The only difference is that this time Jon's inability to kill Ygritte won't doom the mission to failure because she's already dead.  Qhorrin proposed assassinating Mance back in Episode 5 of Season 2, and Jon failed to execute Ygritte in the subsequent episode.  So, not only are the Walkers apparently going around in circles, so is Jon's story line.

[ASign]

"Grenn Team Six"

 

That is beautiful.

[Lady S.]

That's who I was thinking about. ;-)

Which would make Jon and Aemon related through Rhaegar.

 

We get a little more with the Watch, but not much. We know Thorne hates Jon Snow, but we don't know why. Did Thorne & Benjen Stark have a feud? Does Thorne resent Jon because Thorne came from a relatively humble knighly background, had to work his ass off to become a knight and then was exiled to the Watch because he pissed off the wrong lord? Does Thorne have something personal against bastards? Who knows? For that matter, we don't know why Thorne was selected as the Acting Commander after Mormont's death, and why Maester Aemon feels free to unilaterally decide the outcome of Jon's trial.  People just behave the way they behave with little or no elaboration.

I thought the Thorne/Snow personal grudge was pretty well established in s1. At first Thorne was just trying to motivate the other recruits by turning them against Jon because he was the best fighter, but then Jon rebelled against him by protecting Sam. So when Ned was arrested, Thorne took the opportunity to call him "not just a bastard, but a traitor's bastard", an insult which caused Jon to lunge at him with a knife. Trying to kill someone can be a pretty good way to turn them against you for good.

And Aemon is like 100 and has probably been there longer than all of them, but he didn't have unilateral authority, it felt more like Thorne lacked enough authority as he was only acting commander, only Slynt agreed with him but not Aemon or the glorified extras also at table, so he didn't have enough votes. As for why he was able to take command, probably along the same lines as why Jon Snow felt free to leave at the end of the ep, there was no one else to take charge of Castle Black's defense, Benjen has been missing forever, and Mormont took pretty much all of the other good fighting men on his great disaster of a ranging.

 

It feels pretty appropriate in a way that Ygritte still couldn't bring herself to kill Jon, since his inability to kill her was what started their whole relationship.

 

Also appropriate that it was a Thenn that got eaten by Ghost.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Lady S.

[Conan Troutman]

So the biggest fire the North has ever seen...

 

 

 

... was a test? WTF,  Mance?

Edited June 11, 2014 by Conan Troutman

[paigow]

So the biggest fire the North has ever seen...

 

 

 

... was a test? WTF,  Mance?

A reaction shot of the Boltons,  looking up from a flaying session,  saying "WTF - Who started a big ass fire?" would be ideal confirmation.

[Taget]

That's who I was thinking about. ;-)

 

 

Essos seems a lot nicer in some parts than the North. That's where I would have fled.

 

Anyway, you're right when you say the North is the most important part of the story. It's interesting that we, viewers, are like the Southerners, more interested in the petty games played by the Houses for the Iron throne, and bored by what's happening up north. It's a nice parallel. But important doesn't necessarily means interesting.

 

 

Yes, but were you still pretty afterwards? ;-)

 

Nicer until a Dothraki horde arrives at your doorstep. ;)

As previously said the attraction of the north is you have no lords and it's sparsely settled. So you can do your own thing and start your own incestuous harem like Craster if you want. But it's like someone from some nice warm place like Italy moving in the 1840s to Minnesota. Why would you move from some nice little warm village by the sea to some place that gets to -40 in the winter? Because in Minnesota you could get your own huge plot of farm land cheaply for yourself and not have any old world nobles to answer to. Or as the wildlings might say, free folk want to be free!

As for where the best place to go to is. Tyrion might have had the right idea with the Summer Islands. Any place that worships breasts and wine can't be all bad!

 

Speaking of vanilla characters, if I don't see Bran for the remainder of the season I'll be fine with that.  Bran was adorable in S1, now he's this awkward goofy looking teen with a Mickey Dolenz haircut and a storyline that could bore a tortoise. 

 

Again... the hair... he's just like... a really ugly woman...

 

Stop being mean to poor Meera Reed. Oh wait that's Bran?

Right now the Bran story actually does interest me a bit more than the wall story. The Night's Watch seems literally like a doorstop. Just something that you know will be kick aside and just there to prevent the far more interesting stuff that awaits from coming too soon. And Jon is just dull. He provides negative energy to any scene he is in.

Bran on the other hand with all that warging stuff looks like he could become interesting. Once Dany crosses over he might be able to seize control of his own dragon while Jon is still moping about.