S05.E04: News Flash

[Trini]

Quote

Barry and Iris face the ultimate parenting test when Team Flash battles Spin (guest star Kiana Madeira), a savvy millennial armed with meta tech, and a dangerous agenda for their daughter, Nora. Ralph is feeling defeated until an unlikely source issues a challenge to help boost his confidence.

Brent Crowell directed the episode written by Kelly Wheeler & Lauren Certo
Original airdate 10/30/2018.

[shantown]

ABOUT TIME BARRY GIVES IRIS SOME BACKUP!!!

Also, "I'm gonna make you a banana" was the best line of the night

[Lady Calypso]

Nora is on a whole other level of childish. She was being all sorts of mean to Iris, someone who is NOT the person who raised her at the moment so she has no idea what she did in the future. She's being cruel to Iris for something Future Iris does. So she finally tells Iris what she did, putting the blame on present Iris even! Like, girl, no. And then, when Barry takes Iris' side, Nora throws a temper tantrum by running off to stay with Joe and Cecile, who I'm guessing is close to her in the future. 

I get that Iris power dampening Nora sucks. But Iris and Barry are right; Iris would have a good reason. Except Nora is apparently five years old and has zero self awareness that maybe, JUST MAYBE, her mom had a good reason and just never told Nora so Nora just thinks that her mom did it...for fun? 

I gotta actually give props to Barry this episode. He was a very, very supportive husband! It makes up for him not standing up for Iris earlier. I LOVED his talk with Iris about her having a good reason and comforting her, and I loved him taking Iris' side at the end. 

Iris/Barry finally get to act like a couple, being all sweet and stuff toward each other. It's nice when the show remembers that they don't need to be like a 1950s TV couple and they can actually kiss and be cute. 

Ralph/Sherloque scenes? Meh. 

I did enjoy Spencer and can't blame Nora for having a crush. The actress who played Spencer IS attractive. 

JOE CAN STAND! Except he basically didn't move and was leaning against the wall that entire scene. 

[miasth]

Well there we go. Iris took over protectiveness to a whole new level and inserted a power dampener into her child.  I still love Iris, but that was a terrible thing to do.  Future Iris should have realized the truth would come out and all she did was make Nora even more vulnerable because she never learned to use her power.

Well think the shine just fell off Barry for Nora.  He stood by Iris as I suspected he would.  The family interaction in the next few episodes should be interesting. I am expecting a change in dynamic between Barry and Nora from now on as I think she will lose her hero worship.

Sherloque was getting on my nerves especially with the way he was treating Ralph, but he redeemed himself at the end by giving Ralph credit.

I suspected Nora helping Barry with the satellite may have caused the creation of Cicada.  Now the question is the satellite piece hit his daughter as well?  What if he was not only reacting to Nora's dad, but to Nora?   Maybe he figured out she was the 2nd speedster and blames her as well.

At this point, someone should suggest Nora goes home.  She has already made  huge changes  and at this point there is no reason for her to stay.   I think she has already learned some important lessons and should be able to apply it when she goes home. Of course we know she has another reason for staying, but no one else does which means suggestions that she leaves would make sense.

I now think something is wrong with Jesse Martin. He was leaning against the wall and by episode end back in the chair. Whatever it is, I hope he will be ok.

[phoenics]

This storyline with Iris and Nora is NOTHING but a vehicle for Iris hate and I do not approve.

Having Iris blamed for something she hasn't even done (and we can't get futureIris' point of view) but we can't get a apology from Caitlin for teaming up with Savitar to KILL Iris in the here and now.

Screw this show and screw these writers.

*screams into the abyss*

Edited October 31, 2018 by phoenics

[scarynikki12]

Nora did say something about not finding out about her powers being suppressed from Future Iris so I’m taking that to leave some wiggle room as to whether Iris actually had them suppressed or if someone else did (unbeknownst to Future Iris) and told Nora it was her as part of an overall plan. The simplest explanation is that Iris did do it, for a very good reason, and Nora’s unwilling to look at her POV because she’s loving the powers. That doesn’t mean the show won’t choose some convoluted explanation instead. 

I like Nora a lot but that was some look of betrayal when Barry backed Iris’ future decision. She genuinely seemed to expect him to take her side (because he has powers I’d guess) and it never occurred to her that he wouldn’t. That then makes me wonder if Nora didn’t secretly blame Iris for Barry’s absence and is using this situation and opportunity to punish her for it. 

I like how messy the Iris/Nora story is at this point and I hope they don’t screw it up before the resolution. I’m sure they will but I hope they don’t. 

[Lady Calypso]

5 minutes ago, miasth said:

Well there we go. Iris took over protectiveness to a whole new level and inserted a power dampener into her child.  I still love Iris, but that was a terrible thing to do.  Future Iris should have realized the truth would come out and all she did was make Nora even more vulnerable because she never learned to use her power.

It does suck but we don't KNOW why Future Iris does this. I still like Iris because she's not Future Iris. Our Iris in the present wouldn't do that to Nora, but we don't know how much Future Iris has changed. I suspect she did it not long after Future Barry disappeared, so there's definitely a bigger story there. I trust that Future Iris didn't dampen Nora's powers for fun. She still should be held accountable, but OUR Iris shouldn't be held accountable. Nora shouldn't be treating Iris like the woman who raised her and lied to her. And that's what is so awful about Nora's storyline so far. She's treating Iris like dirt and can't differentiate between the Iris who raised her and the Iris she's with now. Nora is at least in her mid twenties. She's not a thirteen year old kid here; she should know better.

And, as it seems, Nora ran into the past pretty much when she found out (since technically, this episode should be about June still, since the season 4 finale and season 5 premiere happened within the same time frame and they don't seem to have skipped ahead a whole summer) so her anger at Future Iris lying is dictating her actions right now....which is so wrong. 

Seriously, thank goodness for Barry being the voice of reason in this storyline. Even if it took him four episodes, he found his voice and stood up for Iris, even when Iris was ready to blame herself.

[bettername2come]

Loved Barry sticking up for Iris. Also loved that glint of protective mama instinct when she realized shady reporter was flirting with her daughter, but not nearly as much as I loved her grabbing a gun and breach thingy to save her family like an action heroine.

I believe if Iris dampened Nora's powers, she had a reason (original recipe Charmed is my first comparison). Maybe she just was scared after Barry disappeared, maybe there was some kind of threat against metas and she was trying to protect Nora. I don't think Nora has any clue why. I don't think she's had a conversation with future Iris about her reasons. It's the West family. Protectiveness and lies are what they do best.

14 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

JOE CAN STAND! Except he basically didn't move and was leaning against the wall that entire scene. 

Jesse was clearly leaning on that door jamb with his right knee bent to keep weight off it. Something is up with his leg and I wish they would've just said he got shot in the knee or something to explain it instead of pinning just him to that couch.

Edited October 31, 2018 by bettername2come

[mxc90]

Spencer has meta tech and didn’t find need to “fix” the mega million jackpot? 

What made Barry think he was going to better at 3rd base instead of right field?

Joe standing but needed support to hold him up.

Nora only had her powers for six months. Who spilled the news to her?

Edited October 31, 2018 by mxc90

[cambridgeguy]

I hope there's a trip to the future coming up since the audience needs to know why Iris put in that chip.  Apparently she never explained her reasons and yeah, Nora being super pissed is completely understandable.  Since she's still being portrayed like a teenager for some reason it's not reasonable to expect her to not ice out the current version of Iris.  A whole lot of people would have trouble working with someone if they were told that person would betray them in the future.

And what the hell, apparently breaching somewhere is a piece of cake even when Cisco is taking the week off.  How many other problems would have been solved if they had just remembered they could do that?

[phoenics]

1 minute ago, cambridgeguy said:

I hope there's a trip to the future coming up since the audience needs to know why Iris put in that chip.  Apparently she never explained her reasons and yeah, Nora being super pissed is completely understandable.  Since she's still being portrayed like a teenager for some reason it's not reasonable to expect her to not ice out the current version of Iris.  A whole lot of people would have trouble working with someone if they were told that person would betray them in the future.

And what the hell, apparently breaching somewhere is a piece of cake even when Cisco is taking the week off.  How many other problems would have been solved if they had just remembered they could do that?

Well Nora knows that Caitlin tried to kill her mom and her dad and doesn't have a problem with that.

I HATE this storyline.

[ursula]

**clear throat loudly**

EH-HEM!

EXCUSE ME. BUT Y'ALL FORGETTING SOMETHING IMPORTANT HERE:

On 10/15/2018 at 9:50 PM, ursula said:

Of course, there is potential for the show to go to some real dark places with this e.g. Mommy tried to remove the speedster gene from Nora but somehow, I don't see the writers depicting Iris that way. NGL, the melodramatic part of me would actually love to see that happen but I won't trust that kind of storyline for Iris in the hands of Flash writers. 

On 10/21/2018 at 11:21 AM, ursula said:

It would make more sense if Nora wasn't a superhero, just a self-taught speedster, who's otherwise a regular girl. It could be due to Iris's meddling by putting a no-fly (or no-run) zone around her while growing up.

(And I will cling to my personal angsty "Iris suppressed or tried to remove Nora's speedster gene" theory with my cold dead fingers ??) 

 

I CALLED IT! ???

GIMME MY R.E.S.P.E.C.T.! ??????

Edited October 31, 2018 by ursula

[phoenics]

1 minute ago, ursula said:

**clear throat loudly**

EH-HEM!

EXCUSE ME. BUT Y'ALL FORGETTING SOMETHING IMPORTANT HERE:

 

I CALLED IT! ???

GIMME MY R.E.S.P.E.C.T.! ??????

I rest my case.  

This is the worst case scenario I can see - because we can't trust these writers to do it right.  Already, Iris is paying more for a damn chip in the future that presentIris hasn't even done than Caitlin paid for teaming up with Savitar for trying to kill Iris.  There was NO censure for her - no NOTHING.  I'm LIVID that we have to sit through all of this IrisHate coming from Nora (who literally is a vehicle for Iris hate at this point).

And Danielle Panabaker put up a tweet asking everyone what they thought of Iris doing that (literally TROLLING for Iris hate) - I was so glad to see most people taking Iris' side.  Much to DP's chagrin I'm sure.

Edited October 31, 2018 by phoenics

[Primal Slayer]

I enjoyed the amount of normalcy we got in this episode. From Iris attempting to cook while jamming out to Barry sucking at sports while Caitlin/Cecile look on at a mother/daughter spat. 

Nora really acts like a teenager even though she's in her mid 20s I believe. Still love her though even if her spat with Iris during the baseball game was low. Did we get confirmation that Norma isnt straight? Did I read that later scene about whatshername correct? Maybe Nora needs to think that maybe Iris suppressed her powers because she was afraid of losing her like she did Barry and maybe even Wally.

Something that caught me for some odd reason we have
Iris - Investigative report
Barry - CSI
Joe - Detective
Nora - CSI
Ralph - Investigator
Annoying Wells - Investigator.

How many people do we need with similar skill sets? Though they only put like 2 of them to use at a time. Can we just get rid of Annoying Wells and give that whole storyline to someone else?

Now we have the introduction of Meta tech....very newagy but I guess Cisco was ahead of the times. Speaking of Cisco...where was he? and I have to say how much I hate how his powers are duplicated by a tiny little device. Makes things to simple for both vibing to other locations to vibing to other earths.

[GHScorpiosRule]

34 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Nora is on a whole other level of childish. She was being all sorts of mean to Iris, someone who is NOT the person who raised her at the moment so she has no idea what she did in the future. She's being cruel to Iris for something Future Iris does. So she finally tells Iris what she did, putting the blame on present Iris even! Like, girl, no. And then, when Barry takes Iris' side, Nora throws a temper tantrum by running off to stay with Joe and Cecile, who I'm guessing is close to her in the future. 

I get that Iris power dampening Nora sucks. But Iris and Barry are right; Iris would have a good reason. Except Nora is apparently five years old and has zero self awareness that maybe, JUST MAYBE, her mom had a good reason and just never told Nora so Nora just thinks that her mom did it...for fun? 

I gotta actually give props to Barry this episode. He was a very, very supportive husband! It makes up for him not standing up for Iris earlier. I LOVED his talk with Iris about her having a good reason and comforting her, and I loved him taking Iris' side at the end. 

Iris/Barry finally get to act like a couple, being all sweet and stuff toward each other. It's nice when the show remembers that they don't need to be like a 1950s TV couple and they can actually kiss and be cute. 

Ralph/Sherloque scenes? Meh. 

I did enjoy Spencer and can't blame Nora for having a crush. The actress who played Spencer IS attractive. 

JOE CAN STAND! Except he basically didn't move and was leaning against the wall that entire scene. 

If I could, I’d give this post a gazillion bazillion likes

Nora has proven herself to be a whiny petulant ungrateful, disrespectful BRAT. And her ASS can’t return to the future fast enough for me. Just based on her behavior tonight, I wouldn’t be surprised if as a child she couldn’t control her powers so Iris suppressed her powers.

And I was cheering when Barry supported and sided with Iris.

And what the FUCK was that bullshit of Iris being a horrible cook, when she’s been a good cook in past seasons? As well as  being a good hacker? Just make her look like a loser in front of Nora, why don’t you, show? ??????????

Fast forwarded all scenes with Sherloque and Ralph.

#TEAMIRIS! All THE FUCKING WAY.

Edited October 31, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[tennisgurl]

I am really going to need to get some info as to why future Iris would block Nora's power, because I know that future Iris would have to have a good reason for doing that. I think Nora is acting super cruel to her current mom, who hasn't even done anything yet, but I cant blame her for being upset. Its a part of her very being, and something to connect her to the father she never got to know, and her mother lied to her about it for her whole life. I can understand Iris not wanting her to be zipping around as a kid, but she apparently kept it up until she was an adult. Was it just because Iris was afraid and overprotective of her daughter after Barry disappeared, or did something else happen? Maybe future Iris found out that Nora wold die? I feel like there HAS to be more to this story. 

I love that Barry stuck up for Iris, even if it means he wont be Nora's favorite anymore. The talk they had about how future Iris must have had a good reason to do what she did and that she was certainly a great mother who did it out of love for Nora was really sweet, and I loved Irises expressions when he defended her. She looked so relieved and happy to hear that he still had faith in her, all versions of her. I actually like this story, if they play it right, and dont turn to Iris bashing or something. Its complicated and kind of awkward and its hard to tell who is in the right, and who is in the wrong, and I find it to be quite engaging. 

Meta stuff now? Huh, that could lead to a few interesting developments. Run, the blender can turn invisible, and its pissed! 

So the best way to keep Ralph from being annoying is to put with with an even more annoying person! Not Sherlock can go anytime, thank you. As this episode showed, Ralph is actually pretty good at investigating, we dont really need him. This is definitely an improvement on the Ralph Show last season. This amount of him works for me. I did miss Cisco though.

[Lady Calypso]

3 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Did we get confirmation that Norma isnt straight? Did I read that later scene about whatshername correct?

I think they made it pretty clear that Nora isn't straight. Iris recognized it pretty quickly and Barry realized it in the van. I do like how they didn't need to spell out Nora's sexuality. It felt like if Spencer had been a guy. Spencer was flirting and Nora was flirting back. She didn't press the button on the watch because she was too distracted by Spencer. Iris ran in there to play Mother Bear and keep Nora from doing something stupid. 

I did laugh at Barry's "...oh" once Iris ran out of the van as he put two and two together.

[phoenics]

I'm wondering if Cicada is still a major threat in the future when Iris is pregnant and alone with Nora... with no Barry to protect them... and having a baby speedster or toddler speedster who won't listen and who could end up killed by a MetaHuman Serial Killer like Cicada.

I'm still really unhappy with this but I'm willing to see if the writers have an endgame that isn't just "let's flog Iris just because".

[miasth]

I understand Nora's anger especially if she never learned the reason why Iris did it.   Either Iris refused to tell her or Nora has been avoiding her mother for the last 6 months in the future. Regardless though as she said Iris took away her choice.  There is also a matter of trust.  At no point did Future Iris decide to trust Nora with the truth and I suspect she may have enlisted the others to hide the secret from Nora as well.  

Current Iris is not to blame, but I can also understand why  Nora cannot separate.  She sees Barry and Iris as her parents even though they are not yet.  The fact that this was a major issue that she never came to terms with probably makes it even more difficult. From my own personal experience, if I met the younger version of some people I would be very wary of them because I unfortunately know what they are capable of.  

[ottoDbusdriver]

12 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Now we have the introduction of Meta tech....very newagy but I guess Cisco was ahead of the times. Speaking of Cisco...where was he? and I have to say how much I hate how his powers are duplicated by a tiny little device. Makes things to simple for both vibing to other locations to vibing to other earths.

Maybe I missed it but was there any explanation where Cisco was ?

Spencer Young was a boring, boring non-meta of the week-- if there really was dark matter in her iPhone, how exactly did it control other machines let alone have hypnotic powers over other people ?  Let alone how Spencer figured this out.

This also means that Spencer knew who Nora was before the bomb blast ?  In order to get her to save the day by throwing the bomb away ?  So was the app also meta-powered ?  Which again is just stupid.  Does that mean that the Apple App store is also infected with dark matter ?  Because that could be bad.

It also means that Spencer knew that Barry was the Flash, since Jones was walking right towards Barry.  And how did Jones get hypnotized ?  Did he also have Spencer's app on his phone ?
This episode was so poorly written.

And just to pile on from upthread, Nora blaming Iris is beyond stupid -- she can do that all she likes to Future-Iris, but Present Day Iris hasn't done anything yet.
I'm getting pretty tired of Nora acting like a petulant teenager all the time.

Also, Nora said she has only had her powers for 6 months -- but Nora has been back in time for a long time (based on her appearance at Jitters and other settings), probably longer than 6 months.  How long was Nora a speedster before she went back in time ?  And how did she learn to travel back in time without her father to teach her ?  Or has she gone back and forth in time multiple times.  And where the hell are the time wraiths -- she should be dodging those constantly ?  Or has that been conveniently dropped since FlashPoint ?
 

[phoenics]

11 minutes ago, miasth said:

I understand Nora's anger especially if she never learned the reason why Iris did it.   Either Iris refused to tell her or Nora has been avoiding her mother for the last 6 months in the future. Regardless though as she said Iris took away her choice.  There is also a matter of trust.  At no point did Future Iris decide to trust Nora with the truth and I suspect she may have enlisted the others to hide the secret from Nora as well.  

Current Iris is not to blame, but I can also understand why  Nora cannot separate.  She sees Barry and Iris as her parents even though they are not yet.  The fact that this was a major issue that she never came to terms with probably makes it even more difficult. From my own personal experience, if I met the younger version of some people I would be very wary of them because I unfortunately know what they are capable of.  

Here's the thing that infuriates me about this storyline.  Your first paragraph is conjecture - we don't know what FutureIRis did or didn't do.  She's not here to give her point of view or version of events.  All we have is Nora's word - and she's been a bit untrustworthy.  She's also reckless, etc..  But my main point is - and my main hate of this storyline - is that all we can do is make conjectures about what FutureIris did - we don't actually know.  And we also don't know WHEN Iris did this.  And we clearly don't know WHY.

Thus, it just feels like a cheap way to hate on Iris because we can't get her Point of view.

And Nora acts like a teenager with zero self awareness.  And I HATE how the writers bailed her out by having currentIris take on futureIris' actions as her own and defend them when she doesn't know her own Pov in the future either.  It absolved Nora of the responsibility to grow up and stop acting like a damn child.  She's in her mid-late TWENTIES.  She's old enough to separate past Iris from future Iris - isn't she?  If she isn't, then she isn't mature enough to be a time traveling speedster.

And about your last comment - somehow we're supposed to believe Nora is just PEACHY and hearts and rainbows with Caitlin - who tried to KILL HER MOTHER AND FATHER (multiple times actually)??!?!  But damn Iris to hell?  

Yeah.  Okay.

Like I said - this storyline acts as a convenient way to trash Iris - not based on current Iris' actions but based on a future that may not even happen now or maybe it happens BECAUSE Nora came back in the past and CREATED the version of CICADA that they never catch who is still serial killing in the future.

And all I know is that if Nora wants to be born, she might wanna stop being a brat before she causes her mom to have a headache when Barry wants to get down with the get down, lol.  She could literally Marty McFly herself out of existence with her brattiness.

I'm so over it, lol.   This episode destroyed my makeup, lol!

Edited October 31, 2018 by phoenics

[BeautifulFlower]

I know Iris made the decision, but Nora should be angry with the others too. They all knew what Future Iris did and lied to Nora as well. 

2 minutes ago, miasth said:

I understand Nora's anger especially if she never learned the reason why Iris did it.   Either Iris refused to tell her or Nora has been avoiding her mother for the last 6 months in the future. 

Nora hasn't been avoiding future Iris. Since there was no time jump, and the show is in real time, Nora first learned about her powers in November 2017. That's when she first showed up in our time.  I guess she immediately decided to time travel after finding out. The question is...who helped her? She's too inexperienced to know how to time travel on her own and rewind time.

[Maverick]

4 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Maybe I missed it but was there any explanation where Cisco was ?

Spencer Young was a boring, boring non-meta of the week-- if there really was dark matter in her iPhone, how exactly did it control other machines let alone have hypnotic powers over other people ?  Let alone how Spencer figured this out.


 

 Cisco was at his parents recuperating.

 Presumably, Spin's phone has some watered down/altered mix of Kilgore and Brainstorm's powers.   If Cicada's weapon was created from the satellite crash, it seems to be some mix of Meting Point and Blacksmith's powers.   

[phoenics]

4 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I know Iris made the decision, but Nora should be angry with the others too. They all knew what Future Iris did and lied to Nora as well. 

Nora hasn't been avoiding future Iris. Since there was no time jump, and the show is in real time, Nora first learned about her powers in November 2017. That's when she first showed up in our time.  I guess she immediately decided to time travel after finding out. The question is...who helped her? She's too inexperienced to know how to time travel on her own and rewind time.

That's what Sherloque was hinting at in last week's episode... he said that someone helped point Nora to this point in the past... who was that?  I thought it was Sherloque from the future, but now I'm not so sure.

[Primal Slayer]

It is interesting that Nora wants to save her father from flashing away in the future but doesnt think about changing Iris' mind about her powers (well not that interesting but still). It is very Sailor Moon.

[phoenics]

I just realized that Nora blocked Iris BEFORE Iris said she agreed with FutureIris (or that she must have had a good reason).  I'm sad the writers have made Nora so damn childish.

[miasth]

4 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I know Iris made the decision, but Nora should be angry with the others too. They all knew what Future Iris did and lied to Nora as well. 

Nora hasn't been avoiding future Iris. Since there was no time jump, and the show is in real time, Nora first learned about her powers in November 2017. That's when she first showed up in our time.  I guess she immediately decided to time travel after finding out. The question is...who helped her? She's too inexperienced to know how to time travel on her own and rewind time.

I thought Nora said she learned the truth 6 months ago so I was going off of that.  I am a bit conflicted on the others not possibly revealing the truth if they knew.  They could have disagreed with Iris's decision, but chose to respect it since she was Nora's mother.  The knowledge would have put them in them in a bad position.  All the discussions on this makes me hope there least more information given on what exactly happened in the future. There is still too many missing pieces of this story missing.

5 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

It is interesting that Nora wants to save her father from flashing away in the future but doesnt think about changing Iris' mind about her powers (well not that interesting but still). It is very Sailor Moon.

Sailor Moon!  The Sailor Moon comparison actually did come to my mind when thinking about Nora not differentiating between Iris and Future Iris.  You make a good point.  Imo, that all points to Nora's judgment being extremely clouded due to her personal issues and feelings.

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, miasth said:

I thought Nora said she learned the truth 6 months ago so I was going off of that.  I am a bit conflicted on the others not possibly revealing the truth if they knew.  They could have disagreed with Iris's decision, but chose to respect it since she was Nora's mother.  The knowledge would have put them in them in a bad position.  All the discussions on this makes me hope there least more information given on what exactly happened in the future. There is still too many missing pieces of this story missing.

Nora did learn the truth 6 months ago. Nora's also been in the past for the past 6 months. She first appeared during Barry and Iris' wedding. So she found out the truth and probably found a way to go back in time, I'd say no longer than a couple of weeks after that. So Nora doesn't have the whole story and didn't choose to stick around in her time to find out.

15 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Nora hasn't been avoiding future Iris. Since there was no time jump, and the show is in real time, Nora first learned about her powers in November 2017. That's when she first showed up in our time.  I guess she immediately decided to time travel after finding out. The question is...who helped her? She's too inexperienced to know how to time travel on her own and rewind time.

My thought is that it's either Wally or Cisco. Maybe Cisco found a way to use his breaches to travel through time after Barry disappeared. Or, the more likely scenario now that I think about it, Nora went to an enemy to ask them to send her back. It would make sense as to why Nora's been acting shifty. If her parents found out that she asked an enemy to send her back just because she's pissed at Iris, they wouldn't be too thrilled.

[phoenics]

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

 

My thought is that it's either Wally or Cisco. Maybe Cisco found a way to use his breaches to travel through time after Barry disappeared. Or, the more likely scenario now that I think about it, Nora went to an enemy to ask them to send her back. It would make sense as to why Nora's been acting shifty. If her parents found out that she asked an enemy to send her back just because she's pissed at Iris, they wouldn't be too thrilled.

My thought was that maybe she went to Reverse Flash - otherwise how the HELL would she know to vibrate her hand into Barry's chest to try to kill him?  That's RF's move.

Iris is looking more and more right, past present and future.

[UNOSEZ]

Good barry this episode.. He was ride or die for his lady.. Nora proved future iris right... If basically right after finding out s had powers she ran to the past and created more metas  and now meta-tech.. Plus at least two murders are under her belt... So smart move by momma iris... 

[miasth]

2 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Nora did learn the truth 6 months ago. Nora's also been in the past for the past 6 months. She first appeared during Barry and Iris' wedding. So she found out the truth and probably found a way to go back in time, I'd say no longer than a couple of weeks after that. So Nora doesn't have the whole story and didn't choose to stick around in her time to find out.

My thought is that it's either Wally or Cisco. Maybe Cisco found a way to use his breaches to travel through time after Barry disappeared. Or, the more likely scenario now that I think about it, Nora went to an enemy to ask them to send her back. It would make sense as to why Nora's been acting shifty. If her parents found out that she asked an enemy to send her back just because she's pissed at Iris, they wouldn't be too thrilled.

Thanks for clearing that up. Her extended lurking last season slipped my mind.    That definitely begs the question of how she was able to go back in time since she herself said she could only turn back time for a short period of time.  I cannot see Wally or Cisco sending her back to make such a huge change in history considering their own personal experiences.  I think your theory of Nora using an enemy is sound and it would certainly fit her behavior so far. She can be impulsive and stubborn.

[Primal Slayer]

I could see her accidentally going back in time while in a very emotional state while "running" away from her problems.

[phoenics]

7 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I could see her accidentally going back in time while in a very emotional state while "running" away from her problems.

Last episode, Sherloque asked her point blank who helped her go back in time to this exact spot.  Going back accidentally I could understand - but a brand new speedster with no one to train her being able to go back to EXACTLY the times that she wanted?  No way.

I agree with others - she's hiding something shady.

[Alice Mudgarden]

If I was supposed to side with Nora over Iris... I didn't.

Iris has more than earned the benefit of the doubt, at least from me, that she put the dampening chip in Nora for a good/understandable reason. My first thought was that she did it after Barry disappeared and she couldn't bear the thought of losing someone else she loved because they were a speedster.

Nora is entirely too old to be acting how she has been.

[ursula]

57 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Nora did say something about not finding out about her powers being suppressed from Future Iris so I’m taking that to leave some wiggle room as to whether Iris actually had them suppressed or if someone else did (unbeknownst to Future Iris) and told Nora it was her as part of an overall plan. The simplest explanation is that Iris did do it, for a very good reason, and Nora’s unwilling to look at her POV because she’s loving the powers. That doesn’t mean the show won’t choose some convoluted explanation instead. 

I like Nora a lot but that was some look of betrayal when Barry backed Iris’ future decision. She genuinely seemed to expect him to take her side (because he has powers I’d guess) and it never occurred to her that he wouldn’t. That then makes me wonder if Nora didn’t secretly blame Iris for Barry’s absence and is using this situation and opportunity to punish her for it. 

I like how messy the Iris/Nora story is at this point and I hope they don’t screw it up before the resolution. I’m sure they will but I hope they don’t. 

I do like how messy the story is. 

IMO, the best part of this story is the fact that Iris has so much fricking agency. Yes, even if her agency meant her not being a Perfect Mother, and even infringing on Nora's own. 

Honestly, the show has never done Iris any favours by making her the Perfect Flawless Girlfriend Daughter Wife Who Does No Wrong. And @phoenics people who hate Iris are always going to hate Iris. We all know why they hate her. It's not because they needed a reason to hate her. What I think is more important is that her character is given a meaty storyline where she has agency. Yes, the writers have not been great at handling Iris in the past and I'm not being dismissive about your suspicions about their agenda. But I think this is still a far better story than one where Iris is just a Sweet, Supportive Mother-shaped Wallpaper in the background of Barry/Nora's inter-generational speedster antics. 

[phoenics]

5 minutes ago, ursula said:

I do like how messy the story is. 

IMO, the best part of this story is the fact that Iris has so much fricking agency. Yes, even if her agency meant her not being a Perfect Mother, and even infringing on Nora's own. 

Honestly, the show has never done Iris any favours by making her the Perfect Flawless Girlfriend Daughter Wife Who Does No Wrong. And @phoenics people who hate Iris are always going to hate Iris. We all know why they hate her. It's not because they needed a reason to hate her. What I think is more important is that her character is given a meaty storyline where she has agency. Yes, the writers have not been great at handling Iris in the past and I'm not being dismissive about your suspicions about their agenda. But I think this is still a far better story than one where Iris is just a Sweet, Supportive Mother-shaped Wallpaper in the background of Barry/Nora's inter-generational speedster antics. 

I totally see what you mean.  In the hands of good writers that I trusted, I would be right where you are.  But I'm still looking at the show that is bending over backwards to absolve Caitlin for her past misdeeds whilst NEVER making her accountable on the show - and simultaneously being forced to sit through a storyline where Iris has to understand and defend some inexplicable event in the future (that may not even happen now) that she hasn't even done yet... 

And yeah - she has agency - but we don't have a real point of view because everyone is just guessing.  What if the writers NEVER show us Iris' point of view in the future or reveal why FutureIris did what she did?  Then this storyline WOULD just be a vehicle for hate.

And I never said that Iris had to be perfect - but at least if she's gonna be flogged for something, it'd be great to have a legit reason WHY other than the reason being some unknowable factor in the future that might never be revealed.  Fans are forced to project their own feelings for Iris into their reasonings to why she did this.  If they hate Iris, then they'll hate her even more for this and now have ammunition to back up their hate.  THAT is my issue with this.  

And since this show STILL refuses to hold Caitlin accountable for anything but somehow only Iris (and Francine) pay for shit, then why would I have any confidence in them handling this properly?

You know what else was super shady?  They used MetaTechGirl (can't remember her name) to bash Iris for her S1 blog.  Iris was trying to protect XS from being exploited on the blog - that's not the same as Iris endangering HERSELF on her blog.  One person was trying to get famous by exploiting people - Iris was trying to support Barry and prove his belief in the impossible was RIGHT.  Yet the writers used that to bash Iris over the head with it.  You don't do that for any reason other than catering to Iris Hatred.

Tell me again these writers are going to treat Iris fairly.  

Edited October 31, 2018 by phoenics

[ursula]

3 minutes ago, Alice Mudgarden said:

If I was supposed to side with Nora over Iris... I didn't.

 

I'm quite sure that we're not supposed to side with Nora in this. For one thing, hating present!Iris for something she's never done automatically puts her in the wrong. Secondly, Barry doesn't side with Nora in this and he's the show's Moral Compass. The writing for this show is wonky and ham-fisted and it's clear (to me) that we're supposed to eventually find out that Iris's decision was ultimately to protect Nora, and Nora is going to be giving her mother a fricking huge apology at the end of the day.

I mean, it's not that hard of a stretch. Simplest scenario: If Barry eventually loses his life/his existence because of being a speedster, it's easy enough to see why Iris doesn't think her only child should follow in his footsteps. (Although I feel the show will go for something more complicated to put Iris in an even rosier light: maybe the suppression was needed to protect Nora from Cicada, who in the future was never caught. Maybe Nora had some speedster disease that the suppression cured. Maybe suppressing Nora's powers was the only was Nora, as a speedster child could grow/develop normally, and Iris either gave in to the temptation to leave it in/ or she had reason to think that taking it out might harm Nora. There are a myriad of reasons for Iris to have done this).

1 minute ago, phoenics said:

But I'm still looking at the show that is bending over backwards to absolve Caitlin for her past misdeeds whilst NEVER making her accountable on the show - and simultaneously being forced to sit through a storyline where Iris has to understand and defend some inexplicable event in the future (that may not even happen now) that she hasn't even done yet... 

Yeah, when you compare it to Caitlin, nothing looks good. The writers are clearly never going to write Caitlin outside that protective white feminist bubble, and honestly, I think that's more of a disservice to the character than anything.

4 minutes ago, phoenics said:

What if the writers NEVER show us Iris' point of view in the future or reveal why FutureIris did what she did?  Then this storyline WOULD just be a vehicle for hate.

Somehow I think they will. It might not be a very good explanation (See my theories above). But they left the question hanging when they could easily have had Future!Iris tell Nora the reason. They're leaving it as a mystery because they intend to solve it. 

[Alice Mudgarden]

2 minutes ago, ursula said:

I'm quite sure that we're not supposed to side with Nora in this. For one thing, hating present!Iris for something she's never done automatically puts her in the wrong. Secondly, Barry doesn't side with Nora in this and he's the show's Moral Compass. The writing for this show is wonky and ham-fisted and it's clear (to me) that we're supposed to eventually find out that Iris's decision was ultimately to protect Nora, and Nora is going to be giving her mother a fricking huge apology at the end of the day.

I mean, it's not that hard of a stretch. Simplest scenario: If Barry eventually loses his life/his existence because of being a speedster, it's easy enough to see why Iris doesn't think her only child should follow in his footsteps. (Although I feel the show will go for something more complicated to put Iris in an even rosier light: maybe the suppression was needed to protect Nora from Cicada, who in the future was never caught. Maybe Nora had some speedster disease that the suppression cured. Maybe suppressing Nora's powers was the only was Nora, as a speedster child could grow/develop normally, and Iris either gave in to the temptation to leave it in/ or she had reason to think that taking it out might harm Nora. There are a myriad of reasons for Iris to have done this).

You're probably right in that we're not supposed to. I think I'm scarred from Arrow last season where I'm pretty sure we were supposed to side with people I vehemently didn't haha.

[Writing Wrongs]

I was confused by the last scene. Was that present day or the past showing when Cicada got his powers?

[tennisgurl]

When it comes to the (weirdly specific) "lie to my kid about their magic/superpowers/long lost relative/fish tail for their own good* plot line, I tend to say that honesty is the best policy. Yeah, wanting to protect your kid is a good thing, and it makes some sense to keep your kid from having powers before they can understand how to use them, but, in general, trying to keep this a secret for their whole life tends to end very poorly. They have to find out on their own, which leads to drama, or they find out when the bad buys attack or when a villain shows up and manipulates them due to their lack of knowledge, or the parent dies and now they have no clue whats going on with themselves. It just seems like the kind of thing everyone is better off knowing about at the appropriate time. 

But, its hard to tell what happened, or what future Iris was thinking, because we dont know the whole story. I cant imagine Iris would do something like that without a really valid reason to. 

[Al Herkimer]

In the previous thread, I had suggested that it was "obvious" that Nora would have a human, but unreasonable, reason for treating Iris so coldly.  I believed that it would turn out that Iris had fallen in love with another man after Barry's disappearance.  No one could blame her for moving on with life, except maybe a daughter who idolized her missing superhero father.  Crazy that, after everything I've seen, I gave Iris the benefit of the doubt.

If she doesn't turn out to be the Big Bad for this season, it's because they're saving it for her to be revealed as the ultimate villain of the series.

[blugirlami21]

Great episode. I'm glad we are finally getting to the root of Nora's problems with Iris. They seem to be as shortsighted and biased as all of Nora's feelings for Iris seem to be. I'm super surprised and also not really surprised, considering her skill level, that Nora just found out she had super powers. That's quite the secret to keep.

Do we know how old Nora is supposed to be? She has teenage angst about every situation. She was so disrespectful to Iris. She lucky Iris is trying to get on her good side cuz my mama would gave knocked me out.

So Iris suppressed Nora's powers. I don't think it's that big a deal honestly.  There are many scenarios in which Iris could choose to make that choice and they are all reasonable ones. Maybe Barry asked her to do it to keep Nora safe from his enemies since he won't be around. Maybe Iris and Barry wanted Nora to have a normal life. Maybe she got her powers too young and she hurt someone and this was the best solution. It could be any number of scenarios.

I find the fact that Nora is so very willing to automatically believe the worst of Iris far more troubling. She yelled at Iris for not knowing the reason behind it but Nora doesn't know either. She never asked.

Great on Barry for standing up for Iris. Iris is a great mother and a great wife. I loved the family scenes we had and the Barry and Iris scenes we got. I hope that we can really see Nora appreciate Iris the way she should. It couldn't have been easy to raise Nora on her own. As the child of a single parent, Nora's disrespectful attitude rubs me the wrong way.

I actually like Sherloque. At least he's being useful. I did miss Cisco, hopefully he will be back soon with a better storyline. 

[ursula]

3 minutes ago, Al Herkimer said:

If she doesn't turn out to be the Big Bad for this season, it's because they're saving it for her to be revealed as the ultimate villain of the series.

????

For a minute there, I almost thought you were serious. Good one! ?

2 hours ago, miasth said:

I now think something is wrong with Jesse Martin. He was leaning against the wall and by episode end back in the chair. Whatever it is, I hope he will be ok.

 

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

JOE CAN STAND! Except he basically didn't move and was leaning against the wall that entire scene. 

?‍♀️ I was going to talk about this, but got carried away with my over-inflated ego. He was leaning in the season premiere too. I really hope he's OK.

Coincidentally (or not), there are now far too many detectives/investigators on the team and I don't know how the show would even fit him in. It's ridiculous. I love Tom C as much as the next guy, but please ---- let him go. I'm even warming up to Ralph these days but TC's character is just as big a plot killer as the Star Labs Satellite*. Deus ex machina. Why couldn't Ralph have had that discovery about Cicada's breathing when investigating the helmet was already his idea? 

Also - maybe I'm wrong but I think this might be the first episode of The Flash that didn't have Carlos Valdes in it. And again, what do you expect when the show has far too many characters all doing the same thing?!!! 

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Iris/Barry finally get to act like a couple, being all sweet and stuff toward each other. It's nice when the show remembers that they don't need to be like a 1950s TV couple and they can actually kiss and be cute. 

 

THIS. It shows how little PDA Westallen demonstrated because I was legit startled by that field-side smooch. 

More of that, please!

[Misslindsey]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Nora has proven herself to be a whiny petulant ungrateful, disrespectful BRAT. And her ASS can’t return to the future fast enough for me. Just based on her behavior tonight, I wouldn’t be surprised if as a child she couldn’t control her powers so Iris suppressed her powers.

Nora cannot return to the future soon enough for me as well. I am so tired of Nora, which does not bode well for me since this was only episode four.

[adora721]

So, about five or six lines of dialogue were exchanged between Iris and Caitlin, but only one with them actually looking at each other. I guess that's improvement. 

I'm giving Iris the benefit of the doubt; while she's not perfect, her intentions tend to be honorable. On SM, someone mentioned that on "Legends of Tomorrow", Zari comes from a future in which metas are outlawed and hunted.  I'm not sure if that future still exists, but that could be a reason to dampen Nora's powers. I hope papa Joe confesses to Nora his sin of lying to Iris for 16 years about a "dead" mother. Nora needs to learn that parents do questionable things to protect their kids.

The SDCC trailer was retconned because Cicada had the dagger while watching Barry on TV after destroying the satellite. Now, the satellite created metas and the dagger -- oy, vey!

Glad that Sherloque gave Dibny the credit, so he's not a total narcissist.

ETA: Forgot to give credit to Bear for sticking up for Iris; it's about time. And can the writers stop selling the idea you must have powers to be a hero. Nora could be a hero without powers.

Edited October 31, 2018 by adora721

[SevenStars]

Despite how disrespectful and rude Nora have been to Iris, I think Nora still love and look for her mother for approval. Nora decided to use Iris' suit as her hero suit. She decided to use the name Iris gave her as a kid as her superhero name. She looks for Iris approval when she is unsure. She listens to Iris when she is scared and don't know what to do. 

She is pissed at Iris but Iris influence on her runs deep.

[tennisgurl]

1 minute ago, adora721 said:

On SM, someone mentioned that on "Legends of Tomorrow", Zari comes from a future in which metas are outlawed and hunted.  I'm not sure if that future still exists, but that could be a reason to dampen Nora's powers.

I was just coming to post about that! In LoT last season, we found out that ARGUS goes on to turn the US into a police state where meta humans are outlawed, hunted, and experimented on. Maybe thats why Iris got rid of her powers?! And that ties into ARGUS going increasingly dark on Arrow, its all coming together! 

[SevenStars]

5 minutes ago, adora721 said:

 

The SDCC trailer was retconned because Cicada had the dagger while watching Barry on TV after destroying the satellite. Now, the satellite created metas and the dagger -- oy, vey!

Cicada could have been rewatching that news report. He could have been watching it to remind him of how his world ended that day. Him watching it doesn't mean he was watching it live as it happen. So I don't think we can say yet if it was retconned. 

[Lantern7]

I'm guessing Nora isn't as educated about time travel. Or maybe she 's really confused. Or maybe the rules changed by the time she started running. Or, hey, maybe she's lying. If she's telling the truth, then I wouldn't blame her for being mad at her mother . . . but being mad at her mother for something she hasn't done? And Nora hasn't even been conceived yet? And things could change because of her medd- . . . fuck it, maybe the Legends can take a break from "mytheries" to crack that problem. Even without a big brain like Prof. Stein, they'd be experienced enough to handle it.

I'm guessing maybe Nora's powers kicked in early, and Iris had the device put in for her own safety. Or maybe she was just really bitter after Barry vanished. I can see that. I can also see Iris with a white streak or two in her hair to indicate age and control issues.

Spyn was a good idea . . . someone using a magic mobile phone to make the news before it happens. And all through subliminal suggestions, so Barry would have to keep his head down fighting Nora, lest he let her kill him.

Poor Barry has to pretend to be a putz playing softball. Is it possible to overdo not doing something well?

Hey, Ralph was useful! I get the need to try and take Sherloque dog a few pegs, but he's gotten Team Flash closer to Cicada . . . probably in time for him to go farther away in a few weeks.

[ursula]

8 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I was just coming to post about that! In LoT last season, we found out that ARGUS goes on to turn the US into a police state where meta humans are outlawed, hunted, and experimented on. Maybe thats why Iris got rid of her powers?! And that ties into ARGUS going increasingly dark on Arrow, its all coming together! 

There's a saying for this, I think: "My mother is always in 2 places: on my nerves and in my heart."