S11.E04: Arachnids in the UK

[Llywela]

57 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

EDITED TO ADD:

Yeah I thought that was weird too.  I'm guessing the thinking was that the giant mutant spiders were not the result of intervention by aliens but rather the natural consequence of human activities, therefore it was really up to the humans to clean up their own mess.  I can't think of a previous Doctor Who episode where he steps in to save the earth from the bad things we do to ourselves.  He announces in one episode that "This planet is defended!" (Didn't Eleven declare that to the invading force he faced in the Christmas episode where David Tennant first appeared?)  There is a long tradition of The Doctor saving the earth from aliens from outer space (or those that lurked deep in the earth).  But I can't think of an episode before where he saves us from ourselves. 

 

The Green Death, a 3rd Doctor adventure, featured a plot very similar to this one - toxic waste dumped in a mine, in that case leading to giant mutated maggots, rather than spiders, but no less deadly. That was very much a case of the Doctor saving us from ourselves - and has to have been a major inspiration for this episode. Another 3rd Doctor story, Invasion of the Dinosaurs, featured powerful and very paranoid (present day) humans attempting to roll back time and return the Earth to a time when it was untouched by mankind - that that one was also a case of saving humans from humans, as is the 2nd Doctor adventure The Enemy of the World. The 4th Doctor battled a giant Robot - another man-made catastrophe. And there will be other examples too, those are just a few from off the top of my head. I really mean it when I say that whenever something seems completely new to Who, it doesn't take long to realise that there are actually precedents for it - after 55 years, there is very little that this show hasn't done!

It is probably true, though, to say that man-made disasters happened more in the Classic show than the New.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Llywela

[WatchrTina]

9 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

I thought since the safe room had food for a human for 6 months, it would be enough for the spiders to live out their natural lives.

I like this idea and it would be a nice way out of the cruel situation they were left in (look at me, sympathizing with the plight of giant spiders) but, alas, I don't think spiders can operate a can-opener.

[libgirl2]

8 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I like this idea and it would be a nice way out of the cruel situation they were left in (look at me, sympathizing with the plight of giant spiders) but, alas, I don't think spiders can operate a can-opener.

Well, they were special so maybe they could. 

Its funny, I kept saying Big is doing this or Big is doing that and my husband is like "who is this Big?" 

[clack]

Things British writers don't understand about Americans : gun use is mainly a class and regional issue. An urban, Ivy League-educated international businessman is unlikely to be familiar with the use of a handgun.

Trump was not a household name because he owned hotels. He was a TV star. Why is the Noth character famous in the UK? Is he a TV star even in the UK?

Is the only characteristic of ruthless businessmen ruthlessness? Just that one dimension? Not competence in a crisis? Bravery? A sense of humor, even if sarcastic?

If the Noth character is running in 2020, that makes him a Democrat, right?

[rab01]

13 hours ago, Kite said:

ETA: Also, I've been thinking about the Doctor's portrayal in the episode, I don't know for sure, I feel it might have been written as a bit too... vulnerable? What do other people think? So far I've been really keen on 13, but wasn't quite sure about some of the lines in this episode. I haven't watched any Peter Davison episodes for years (as a child I found him a bit boring, unlike 13, the actor plays him as quite testy in the recent audios though) but a lot of people have been drawing comparisons between 5 and 13 re being pleasant and vulnerable. I feel there might be some gender stuff going on re 13 though.

 

I thought that too while watching the scene where the Doctor happily agrees to get tea with Yaz.  I was internally comparing it to how standoffish some newWho doctors have been to family invitations. But after thinking about it more ... I think that's on me, not the writers.  On the page, that interaction could have been performed in Peter Capaldi's voice and have been dripping with sarcasm to hide that he actually wanted to go.  So, Jodi Whittaker takes the scene to a more open and honest enthusiasm and that's how the actor chooses to play the character, not a gendered thing by production.  It's also a more mature response and there's nothing wrong with the Doctor getting better over the course of several lifetimes.

 

I agree with Chitowngirl - since the spiders matured and dispersed so incredibly rapidly; 3 months of food sounded like enough for them to live out their mutated lives.

Edited October 29, 2018 by rab01

[Llywela]

1 minute ago, clack said:

Is the only characteristic of ruthless businessmen ruthlessness? Just that one dimension? Not competence in a crisis? Bravery? A sense of humor, even if sarcastic?

The hotel guy here has something in common with every villain so far this season: they have all been pretty one-dimensional and poorly fleshed out. He really wasn't unique in that. It has been the case with all of them. The writing effort is being directed elsewhere, and at this point that has to be a deliberate choice. This, it seems, is a showrunner not particularly interested in giving extra dimensions to his villains; they are simply there to provide a plot to hang the story off.

[ae2]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

But I didn't like Chris Noth's Not!Trump character, nor am I interested in seeing the racist time-traveler in the Rosa episode again, so if I'm right and their characters re-appear this season, that's going to be a drag.

4 episodes in and after each episode fans on here have surmised that we'll see someone again from each episode. I don't know if it's truly building up toward some season long plot, or if it is simply indicative of the new showrunner's lack of ability to resolve a plot. (Based on this episode I'm leaning toward the latter.)

Here is the running tally:

Episode 1 - The Stenza race*

Episode 2 - The guy running the race AND the two contestants

Episode 3 - The time-traveler

Episode 4 - The annoying business-man

* And to be fair, the Stenza were a point of emphasis in episode 2. 

[WatchrTina]

So I've been thinking about this episode and why it didn't really grab me.  I think it's all down to plot weakness.  Others have already talked about the lack of resolution at the end of the ep.  What got me thinking just now is this . . . why did Not!Trump fire Yaz's mother?  What did he think she saw or overheard that required her being fired? 

Similarly, if someone saw or overheard you doing or saying something incriminating, is firing them on the spot REALLY a good idea?  Wouldn't you want to keep them on your payroll and make them financially dependent on your goodwill so as to keep them quiet?  That plot point really makes NO sense.  It's clearly just in there so that Yaz's mom has to call someone to come pick her up, thus bringing Yaz (and The Doctor) to the key location.

Furthermore, did we ever figure out why Yaz's dad was bringing garbage home?  I presume his doing that had something to do with why his neighbor wound up with a giant spider infestation but what the point was of his dragging garbage home in the first place?

Yeah, this plot has more holes in it than a spider's web.

[Cotypubby]

1 hour ago, chitowngirl said:

I thought since the safe room had food for a human for 6 months, it would be enough for the spiders to live out their natural lives.

The food was stored in safety boxes, it wasn't just laying around in the open. It wouldn't have been any help to the spiders.

19 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

So I've been thinking about this episode and why it didn't really grab me.  I think it's all down to plot weakness.  Others have already talked about the lack of resolution at the end of the ep.  What got me thinking just now is this . . . why did Not!Trump fire Yaz's mother?  What did he think she saw or overheard that required her being fired? 

 

Honestly I think the only reason that was there was so Not!Trump could say "You're fired!"

Edited October 29, 2018 by Cotypubby

[ae2]

23 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

So I've been thinking about this episode and why it didn't really grab me.  I think it's all down to plot weakness.  Others have already talked about the lack of resolution at the end of the ep.  What got me thinking just now is this . . . why did Not!Trump fire Yaz's mother?  What did he think she saw or overheard that required her being fired? 

Similarly, if someone saw or overheard you doing or saying something incriminating, is firing them on the spot REALLY a good idea?  Wouldn't you want to keep them on your payroll and make them financially dependent on your goodwill so as to keep them quiet?  That plot point really makes NO sense.  It's clearly just in there so that Yaz's mom has to call someone to come pick her up, thus bringing Yaz (and The Doctor) to the key location.

Furthermore, did we ever figure out why Yaz's dad was bringing garbage home?  I presume his doing that had something to do with why his neighbor wound up with a giant spider infestation but what the point was of his dragging garbage home in the first place?

Yeah, this plot has more holes in it than a spider's web.

None of it made any sense. It's like we only saw half the episode.

The whole thing was a disaster.

[theschnauzers]

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

What was with the editing this episode or was it the BBC America version. Did they just let the other spiders die of starvation? At that point then I'm with notTrump shooting them would've been a mercy killing or at least do something to make it a quick death. I didn't hear an option of turning them back to their original size. 

This was definitely the weakest ep so far. 

I understand why Graham and Ryan would choose to go with the Doctor, they don't want to have make a decision to move on yet. Yaz has a job that she can get fired from. I did like 13 giving a warning to her companions that she can't keep them safe and that they will never be the same. Some of others could've done with that warning. 

These days, BBC America inserts commercial breaks, but extends the broadcast time slot to accommodate the full episode as aired in the UK. Haven’t seen any editing issues for Doctor Who in recent years from BBC America.

[truther]

It's a bad sign for an episode that the more you think about it the more flaws you notice. 

It occurs to me now that one massive problem with the way they abruptly ended the spider issue was that it says violence *does* pay. NotTrump! shot the mama spider and boom, everything was neatly tied up. A single bullet from a shiny handgun and the threat instantly disappears, the loose ends tie themselves, the problems go away. No messy aftermath, no unforeseen problems, no regrets. Our heroes hop in the Tardis and it's off to next week's adventure. (Just like last week, btw, when Ryan zapped the bad guy.)  

Edited October 29, 2018 by truther

[silverstream]

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

So I've been thinking about this episode and why it didn't really grab me.  I think it's all down to plot weakness.  Others have already talked about the lack of resolution at the end of the ep.  What got me thinking just now is this . . . why did Not!Trump fire Yaz's mother?  What did he think she saw or overheard that required her being fired?

I was wondering about that too at first, but I think it's not that she saw/heard anything she shouldn't have, and more about the housekeeping - the hotel was supposed to be clean and ready for the guests to arrive in (I think it was?) a couple of days, and instead every room is full of disgusting spider webs. As much as I hated Not!Trump and the way he did it was absolutely unacceptable, I'd have fired the person responsible for overseeing everything was ready too (considering that at that point the giant spiders hadn't made an entrance yet).

But as to the way he did it - I still can't believe they let Not!Trump and his bodyguard get away with pointing a gun at Yaz and Najia (an Yaz being a police officer at that!).

Also, I think "my phone just told me I have to go to the bathroom" is the most transparent excuse to leave two characters alone in a room together I've ever seen, lol.

 

12 hours ago, Llywela said:

Yaz is more surprising, knowing how ambitious she is. You wouldn't think she'd want to risk her career, however much her family drive her mad - but then again, having been brought home half an hour after she left will have given her false confidence in the Doctor's ability to bring her home without consequence, and she's not the first to get a taste of interstellar adventure and want more!

Yes, the scene where Yaz just pops out quickly to buy something definitely gave me the vibe that she's going to reappear in a couple of months to lots of "missing" posters, and possibly with the Doctor being suspected of something nefarious in relation to her disappearance (since they made such a point of Najia repeatedly trying to find out what Yaz was doing with the Doctor).

 

12 hours ago, Llywela said:

No one has mentioned it here yet, but there was a key scene for those two when Ryan was trying to talk about his dad's letter: he'd been invited to live with his dad permanently but objected to his dad calling himself 'proper family' - he was protesting that phrase on Graham's behalf, which is as close as he's ever come yet to accepting Graham as his family...but Graham was distracted by the giant spider and so didn't hear him.

 

That was so sweet! For me, it was one of the highlights in an episode I'm otherwise rather "meh" about.

Edited October 29, 2018 by silverstream

[taanja]

20 hours ago, Kite said:

stock and roadkill here as it's considered kinder) but I guess it's not so bad, considering, to have some nationalist identity around "we don't worship guns here". (We have that same pride at not being like the US in Australia.)

Liquor and guns baby! The American way! < and I mean together-- hand in hand-- drinking and shooting. Yup Ain't it grand?

Everyone I know has a gun -- in many cases more than one. I mean -- there is no such things as too many guns? right? It's our national motto I swear! /s

The spiders looked hokey so they didn't freak me out. The whole ep had a special episode for children feel. Is it just me?

and the TARDIS ... what to say about the new TARDIS? I get the feeling they are trying too hard to make it look -- Groovy. Spiffy. Funky. Crazy. Special.

[Chaos Theory]

Wow I must be the only person who thought this episode was hilariously. I loved Chris Noth as the evil businessman and seriously I hear people bitch all the time on American shows about how they should have “native” people play rolls so why not have an American play an American?  

Loved hoe The Doctor kept calling Yaz’s mum yaz’s mum.  I thought that but was hilarious and that Graham has already figured out that SOP is to run first and ask questions later.   

Loved Yaz’s family and wouldn’t mind seeing them again.

By no means the best episode of the season but it is hardly worth nitpicking either.  

[dkb]

This season is the first Doctor Who episodes I've ever seen. Liking the series a lot.

7 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Wow I must be the only person who thought this episode was hilariously. I loved Chris Noth as the evil businessman and seriously I hear people bitch all the time on American shows about how they should have “native” people play rolls so why not have an American play an American?  

Loved hoe The Doctor kept calling Yaz’s mum yaz’s mum.  I thought that but was hilarious and that Graham has already figured out that SOP is to run first and ask questions later.   

Loved Yaz’s family and wouldn’t mind seeing them again.

By no means the best episode of the season but it is hardly worth nitpicking either.  

I also really liked the episode, and thought it was very funny. 

Had to look away a few times, because I hate spiders.

[snarktini]

Last night dinner interrupted me halfway through the episode, which was good since the spiders were really, really creeping me out. (And I'm not even particularly afraid of spiders.) Based on the comments here, maybe I'll just skip the rest!

[LiveenLetLive]

3 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

I thought since the safe room had food for a human for 6 months, it would be enough for the spiders to live out their natural lives.

good catch, pity the writers didn't make that clear, I liked the episode but they did seem all too eager to get American's love of gunfire into it somehow no matter how artificially.

[Chaos Theory]

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

So I've been thinking about this episode and why it didn't really grab me.  I think it's all down to plot weakness.  Others have already talked about the lack of resolution at the end of the ep.  What got me thinking just now is this . . . why did Not!Trump fire Yaz's mother?  What did he think she saw or overheard that required her being fired? 

 

He was doing shady things.  It doesn’t matter that she didn’t deserve to be fired.  You are assuming he is a reasonable boss to begin with.  He is a guy who takes scheduled bathroom breaks.  Yaz’s mom came in a day early (without telling him which he didn’t approve of) while a lot of shady things were going on.  

[clack]

Yaz's mother came in when her workplace was closed, going against orders, and then listened to a confidential conversation involving her boss.

If I came into work when I was told not to, while my workplace was closed, I would expect consequences. Her motive in coming into work was so badly written, also -- she was just too conscientious.

[Dobian]

6 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

Also was Yaz's mother implying that she is "with" the Doctor? Its the vibe I got off of the comments. 

Yes, she basically asked if the Doctor was her girlfriend.

[futurechemist]

I can barely tolerate spiders.  I found the spiders scary.  So that's a point for the episode.

The episode ended abruptly - the shift from trapping the spiders in the panic room and killing the giant spider to the companions deciding to stay with the Doctor was too jarring.  Likewise there was no payoff to the gang having dinner at Yaz's house - they all just left and went their separate ways to the hotel and never went back.  But that's been a problem for a while now.  It's like the writers have all these creative ideas for a story that they forgot a story needs to have a resolution after the climax.  The most jarring example to me was the episode where Clara jumps into 11's timestream and the episode ends with them seeing the War Doctor and walking off - still in the Doctor's timestream.

I agree with others that the doctor seemed hypocritical about guns.  The giant spider is suffocating because it's too large.  The other spiders will starve and/or eat each other in a confined space.  Those aren't peaceful merciful deaths.

1 other question - why was there a giant spider at Graham's house?  There wasn't a connection between Graham and the hotel.

[Chaos Theory]

9 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Yes, she basically asked if the Doctor was her girlfriend.

I don’t care I am shipping them now.  I had to deal with years of Doctor/Rose.  Even if it never goes anywhere THIS IS MY SHIP!!!!! 

[libgirl2]

I can deal with a female Doctor and I have no issue with homosexuality. My problem is I feel that some things are coming up (like the niece's wife line) just for the sake of saying "see how progressive we are". 

Also I have seen comparison's to The Green Death. First, Pertwee was an established Doctor and second his companions were beloved and familiar. This episode that started out strong, ended weak and I just felt no connection to anyone but Graham. 

Edited October 29, 2018 by libgirl2

[Llywela]

4 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Also I have seen comparison's to The Green Death. First, Pertwee was an established Doctor and second his companions were beloved and familiar. 

The similarity has nothing to do with the Doctor's personality, relationship with the companions, or with how established (or not) any of them might be. The similarity lies in the plot. Seriously. Toxic waste dumped in a mine causes insects to mutate to a deadly size - the same basic plot summary be used to describe both The Green Death and Arachnids in the UK. They play out very differently, yeah, but the core concept around which the stories are built is identical, and there is no way that's accidental, the one had to have inspired the other.

[libgirl2]

1 minute ago, Llywela said:

The similarity has nothing to do with the Doctor's personality, relationship with the companions, or with how established (or not) any of them might be. The similarity lies in the plot. Seriously. Toxic waste dumped in a mine causes insects to mutate to a deadly size - the same basic plot summary be used to describe both The Green Death and Arachnids in the UK. They play out very differently, yeah, but the core concept around which the stories are built is identical, and there is no way that's accidental, the one had to have inspired the other.

Oh I do agree, but what made the episode flow better for me is that I knew this Doctor so well and I loved these companions..... it had a different feel to it because of how I related to the characters. It might have inspired this episode but it wasn't quite as good as that one. I have said I was enjoying it at the start and then something started to go...... and the ending was just not what I had expected. 

[Llywela]

9 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Oh I do agree, but what made the episode flow better for me is that I knew this Doctor so well and I loved these companions..... it had a different feel to it because of how I related to the characters. It might have inspired this episode but it wasn't quite as good as that one. I have said I was enjoying it at the start and then something started to go...... and the ending was just not what I had expected. 

Well, it wouldn't be the first time New Who revisited the basic concept of a Classic adventure but managed to not be as good as the original! (I'm still not over The Hungry Earth and Cold Blood). And I agree that this wasn't as good as The Green Death, which benefited from, as you say, having well established characters with well established dynamics. It just sounded from your post as if you were denying any comparison at all, when the parallel is plain to see!

There was some good character stuff in this episode, mind, and a lot of humour, which I enjoyed. It's just a shame it was so messily written with such poor resolution - someone up-thread observed that there isn't even any real pay-off to Yaz inviting everyone home for tea. They just hang out there for a bit and then leave their hosts high and dry with no explanation! I liked meeting Yaz's family though, and how down-to-earth and normal they were (other than the dad's weird thing about collecting junk as evidence for a complaint, but even that was just played as amusing eccentricity). I liked seeing Graham going home and struggling with being in that house without Grace (so this is what they meant when they said it was a returning role, I guess?). I liked Ryan's struggle over what to do next: stay with Graham, who he has never considered family yet who accepts and supports him wholeheartedly, or to go live with the father he has never been able to rely on, So the three of them all had some good stuff going on here - it is the dynamic with the Doctor that still feels a bit off, I think. And now that I think about it, I think that's because she only really interacts with them as a group, like they come as a job lot and she treats them as such - she hasn't really established meaningful relationships with them as individuals. So I hope to see more development there going forward.

[libgirl2]

10 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Well, it wouldn't be the first time New Who revisited the basic concept of a Classic adventure but managed to not be as good as the original! (I'm still not over The Hungry Earth and Cold Blood). And I agree that this wasn't as good as The Green Death, which benefited from, as you say, having well established characters with well established dynamics. It just sounded from your post as if you were denying any comparison at all, when the parallel is plain to see!

There was some good character stuff in this episode, mind, and a lot of humour, which I enjoyed. It's just a shame it was so messily written with such poor resolution - someone up-thread observed that there isn't even any real pay-off to Yaz inviting everyone home for tea. They just hang out there for a bit and then leave their hosts high and dry with no explanation! I liked meeting Yaz's family though, and how down-to-earth and normal they were (other than the dad's weird thing about collecting junk as evidence for a complaint, but even that was just played as amusing eccentricity). I liked seeing Graham going home and struggling with being in that house without Grace (so this is what they meant when they said it was a returning role, I guess?). I liked Ryan's struggle over what to do next: stay with Graham, who he has never considered family yet who accepts and supports him wholeheartedly, or to go live with the father he has never been able to rely on, So the three of them all had some good stuff going on here - it is the dynamic with the Doctor that still feels a bit off, I think. And now that I think about it, I think that's because she only really interacts with them as a group, like they come as a job lot and she treats them as such - she hasn't really established meaningful relationships with them as individuals. So I hope to see more development there going forward.

There were some good moments, especially Graham going home and being alone. When my mother went to the nursing home it was the first time my dad had to live alone. This part really hit home because I could see how hard it had to have been for him. I'm still waiting to feel the Doctor/Companion bond be real. So far it feels forced. And Yaz is a cop, I felt she could have stepped up a bit more. 

I think the messy writing and the poor resolution just kind of sunk what might have been a decent episode that did have promise. I haven't been overtly impressed with the writing so far. This isn't Broadchurch 2 (or 4 actually)..... something is just off. And I do think Jodie has some great moments. She can be the Doctor but as with Capaldi, decent Doctor, poor writing? 

Edited October 29, 2018 by libgirl2

[Llywela]

8 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

And Yaz is a cop, I felt she could have stepped up a bit more.

Yes! When the hotel guy and his bodyguard pulled guns, I expected Yaz to throw the book at them. Ordinary people in this country do not carry guns. An American wanting to bring a gun into this country would not find it easy. Guns are not normal here. She should have demanded to see their permits, threatened to arrest them - seriously, pulling a gun on a just-barely-sacked-employee for not leaving the premises fast enough is very much not allowed, and Yaz is a police officer, she would both know that and would react to that. And, I mean...American TV makes it look like people in the States have guns pulled on them all the time (and yeah, I know that isn't actually true, but that's the impression both TV and the news give) but that is not the case over here - both Yaz and Najia should have had a bigger reaction to being threatened with a gun. Najia in particular - Yaz does at least have the experience of a few adventures with the Doctor under her belt now, to have grown used to being in danger.

Another tiny character moment I really liked, mind: Yaz's dad calling her a policewoman, and Yaz being familiar enough with this to correct it as 'police officer' even as he is still speaking. That felt really. Their family dynamic was very convincing.

[rab01]

55 minutes ago, Llywela said:

... it is the dynamic with the Doctor that still feels a bit off, I think. And now that I think about it, I think that's because she only really interacts with them as a group, like they come as a job lot and she treats them as such - she hasn't really established meaningful relationships with them as individuals. So I hope to see more development there going forward.

I think that may be because they've given themselves a really large challenge -- introduce a new Doctor and three new companions at the same time.  Usually there's some continuity either in the doctor or in the companion; newWho has never introduced three companions at once.  The only other multi-companion grouping was Rory and Amy and, through most of the run, Amy was the "real" companion and Rory was just a plus-one.  (OK, sure, Mickey, Captain Jack, River Song all got multiple trips but they were never the companion.)  It's hard to introduce 4 main characters and divvy up their screen time properly - especially when in every episode there are a bunch of scenes that could plausibly be given to any of them (e.g., "companion X opens door, screams, slams it shut and runs to find the doctor").  I think they're progressing pretty well.   (As someone up-thread pointed out, that may also be why the villains have been so flat - not enough space yet to give them internal lives.) 

[The Companion]

20 hours ago, phalange said:

 

The Doctor's face when Roberston was talking in the kitchen is the exact face I make when old white male politicians are talking. I love that she thought he was Ed Sheeran and told him he couldn't run for president because he fired Yaz's mom. 

Ryan making shadow puppets in the background while Thirteen and the scientist were talking was great, as was Thirteen name-dropping Amelia Earhart. 

Her face was amazing. I was laughing so hard at both of these moments. I almost missed the shadow puppets and made us go back. 

19 hours ago, RandomWatcher said:

That was a whole lot of nope

I haaaaaate spiders, which made this the perfect creepy Halloween episode for me.

15 hours ago, Llywela said:

 I enjoyed the character movement, though - getting to learn more about Yaz's family, seeing Graham and Ryan's relationship move forward a step, etc. No one has mentioned it here yet, but there was a key scene for those two when Ryan was trying to talk about his dad's letter: he'd been invited to live with his dad permanently but objected to his dad calling himself 'proper family' - he was protesting that phrase on Graham's behalf, which is as close as he's ever come yet to accepting Graham as his family...but Graham was distracted by the giant spider and so didn't hear him. So I guess, for Ryan, going away with the Doctor again allows him to put off dealing with the decision he now needs to make (stay with Graham or go to his dad) while for Graham, going away to avoid having to get on with his life without Grace is a no-brainer - Yaz is more surprising, knowing how ambitious she is. You wouldn't think she'd want to risk her career, however much her family drive her mad - but then again, having been brought home half an hour after she left will have given her false confidence in the Doctor's ability to bring her home without consequence, and she's not the first to get a taste of interstellar adventure and want more!

There was a lot of humour in the episode, which I enjoyed - I caught Ryan's shadow puppets as well - but the plot wasn't great and I do not enjoy giant spiders!

Agree with this. I actually like that we have had villain light so that we can get to know these characters. I loved seeing Yaz's family. Her mother (Najia?) was awesome and perfectly mom nosy. I loved the quiet moments of mourning for Graham and the interrupted conversation with Ryan.

6 hours ago, rab01 said:

I thought that too while watching the scene where the Doctor happily agrees to get tea with Yaz.  I was internally comparing it to how standoffish some newWho doctors have been to family invitations. But after thinking about it more ... I think that's on me, not the writers.  On the page, that interaction could have been performed in Peter Capaldi's voice and have been dripping with sarcasm to hide that he actually wanted to go.  So, Jodi Whittaker takes the scene to a more open and honest enthusiasm and that's how the actor chooses to play the character, not a gendered thing by production.  It's also a more mature response and there's nothing wrong with the Doctor getting better over the course of several lifetimes.

 

I agree with Chitowngirl - since the spiders matured and dispersed so incredibly rapidly; 3 months of food sounded like enough for them to live out their mutated lives.

I loved her enthusiasm and her inability to make small talk. I was laughing so hard at her whole discussion of getting an couch and and flat. It did remind me of Eleven at Clara's Christmas dinner with no clothes. I really love the open enthusiasm.

 

1 hour ago, futurechemist said:

1 other question - why was there a giant spider at Graham's house?  There wasn't a connection between Graham and the hotel.

I thought they concluded there was no connection through Nadja. Instead the spiders were branching out through the mines and were ending up in dark quiet places that spiders end up. I did think I would be uncomfortable going back there and just assuming all the spiders ended up in the hotel. I guess the conclusion was that they would eventually end up too big to continue.

32 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Yes! When the hotel guy and his bodyguard pulled guns, I expected Yaz to throw the book at them. Ordinary people in this country do not carry guns. An American wanting to bring a gun into this country would not find it easy. Guns are not normal here. She should have demanded to see their permits, threatened to arrest them - seriously, pulling a gun on a just-barely-sacked-employee for not leaving the premises fast enough is very much not allowed, and Yaz is a police officer, she would both know that and would react to that. And, I mean...American TV makes it look like people in the States have guns pulled on them all the time (and yeah, I know that isn't actually true, but that's the impression both TV and the news give) but that is not the case over here - both Yaz and Najia should have had a bigger reaction to being threatened with a gun. Najia in particular - Yaz does at least have the experience of a few adventures with the Doctor under her belt now, to have grown used to being in danger.

Another tiny character moment I really liked, mind: Yaz's dad calling her a policewoman, and Yaz being familiar enough with this to correct it as 'police officer' even as he is still speaking. That felt really. Their family dynamic was very convincing.

For the record, this American has had a gun pulled on her 0 times. I would have a pretty big reaction to having a gun pointed at me. I mean, I also assume London doesn't have alien attacks at Christmas either. 

 

I enjoyed this episode. I found it appropriately creepy and I enjoyed the silliness. I agree the end was a but abrupt but I liked the tone and suspect my 5 year old will want to watch it 100 times because GIANT SPIDERS!

[AnimeMania]

3 hours ago, dkb said:

This season is the first Doctor Who episodes I've ever seen. Liking the series a lot.

My favorite NewWho aliens were the ones that ate all the fat off your body and left you skinny. I think everybody would welcome them on Earth.

[The Companion]

53 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

My favorite NewWho aliens were the ones that ate all the fat off your body and left you skinny. I think everybody would welcome them on Earth.

I, for one, welcome our new Adipose overlords.

[dkb]

2 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

My favorite NewWho aliens were the ones that ate all the fat off your body and left you skinny. I think everybody would welcome them on Earth.

Tell me more.... lol. I'm assuming they weren't nice aliens in the end?

[Kite]

12 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Did they just let the other spiders die of starvation? At that point then I'm with notTrump shooting them would've been a mercy killing or at least do something to make it a quick death.

<snip>

Yaz has a job that she can get fired from.

Re the spiders, I found that bit annoying. You can have an anti-gun message without it conflicting with times when euthanasia might be necessary (such as with pets). Be kind, not nice, Doctor. Also, the "Ghostbusters" visual reference was freaking funny, but "essential oils" vs "guns" was too on the nose for me personally. But I'm not a kid and this show is sometimes for kids, like the farting aliens! 

I reckon Yaz thinks she's going to get back half an hour later like last time. I reckon that might not be the case.

I found the episode definitely got more fun with a rewatch (like with ep2), and have come to terms with the fact that the plot is pretty much incidental to the characterisation, and that's probably a Chibnall thing.

4 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

I can deal with a female Doctor and I have no issue with homosexuality. My problem is....

blarghhh not this "I'm not homophobic/etc BUT..." again. (It's been attenuating off the last few years thankfully.) Get used to it, we're not visible to be all about YOU being virtue-signalled or w/ever, we're visible cos um, WE EXIST.

[starri]

19 hours ago, Llywela said:

There are a lot of similarities between Thirteen and Five - both coming across as kinder, gentler, more sympathetic characters than their highly charismatic, somewhat overbearing predecessors. I can also see a lot of Eight in Thirteen - bright and sunny and optimistic. So to me her persona doesn't read in a gender way at all, because I can see other Doctors in her personality.

The thing that the end of the episode really reminded me of was Nine with the alien pig thing in "Aliens of London," where he was got utterly distraught that the soldiers had shot at something even though it was only scared.

I liked Yaz's family a lot, but I hope we're not going to be checking in with them too often.  I got really fed up with all of the Moffat era companions getting to have normal human lives AND run off with the Doctor on weekends.

I'm scared something terrible is going to happen to Graham.  Because he's my favorite, both with "Doc" and being so fiercely protective of Ryan even when he has a difficult relationship with him.  And bad things happen to my favorites.

The whole thing with everyone telling NotTrump that the Doctor was the one in charge is going to be a highlight of the series for me.

[vasahie]

On 10/28/2018 at 6:46 PM, clack said:

British TV writers famously can't write Americans, but even by British standards, Chris North was written (and horribly acted) as such a ludicrous caricature.

I agree.  He was really bad.  I don't remember him being that bad an actor in L&O but it has been a long time.  This was embarrassingly amateur.

[tennisgurl]

I dont mind spiders all that much, so I could just enjoy the fun of having some cool creepy crawlies running around, and appreciate that the spiders looked super cool. Appropriate to have probably the creepiest episode airing right before Halloween! 

I didnt hate the episode or anything, but I found it to be the weakest episode so far. I usually like Chris North, but you could tell he was struggling with some of his line deliveries, or something, because he came off super awkward throughout. I liked Yazs family, and I can see how she loves them and are good, kind people, and can also drive Yaz up the wall, and make her want to explore the nearest planet. The rest of the supporting characters were pretty dull. The scientist was fine for exposition dumping, and Not Trump was just grating. I didnt feel offended as an American or anything (its not like every show state side isnt doing their own Not Trumps), and I didnt think he was that over the top, I just thought he was lame and I hated that we had to spend so much time with him, and then he just wanders out of the episode, never to be seen again. At least, I hope not again. God I hope this guy isnt reoccurring. 

That was my other issue with the episode. The ending was so abrupt. All that build up, and...Not Trump kills the spiders, he leaves, and... everyone goes home. It seems like we skipped a few scenes, where we got any closure with Not Trump, the left over spiders, Yazs mom, the toxic spill, etc. And, as other people have said, leaving the spiders to starve, or the queen to die in pain with her organs falling apart, seems more cruel than just shooting them and putting them out of their misery. I get the Doctors no guns stance usually, but here, it seemed more cruel than wise. 

I did love the whole Tardis crew coming together officially, and some of the smaller moments, like Graham and Ryan bonding, the Doctor being so happy to get tea with Yaz, everyone telling Not Trump that the Doctor is obviously in charge, and some smaller bits like that, worked really well. I just wish the episode had been more well constructed. 

[Daltrey]

6 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

things are coming up (like the niece's wife line) just for the sake of saying "see how progressive we are". 

This is the root of everything that was wrong with this episode. That line was fairly innocuous, as delivered at the start by a tertiary character, in that it's not something one would find shocking or unexpected in this day and age. What followed in it's wake however, was a pretty heavy hammering of virtue signalling and political correctness that severely impacted how the story played out. Too much of it was completely unnecessary; Yaz's mom and sister being overly concerned with if she' s dating either of these new friends and if so, which one, Yaz correcting her Dad's "police woman" to "police Officer" - would any viewer really have batted an eye if this line didn't exist? - Najia saying "Do you have any idea how annoying it is when my husband's right?". Having the main characters engage in discussions of sexual preference, gender equality and political ideology while supposedly trying to find the cause of and solution to the spider problem resulted in some hackneyed exposition in the last few minutes that failed to fully explain anything. The Doctor has them trap the spiders in the panic room and collect canisters of essential oils to....do what, exactly? That plot point devolves into a ridiculous dissertation that using a gun to put a dying creature out of it's misery is a much worse fate than letting it slowly suffer in suffocation. I'm no pro gun nut by any stretch but that was just stupid. Smash cut to "Hey, Doctor, um.....can we come with?".

 

When it was announced that Jody was taking over I was intrigued and totally on board. I thought, "this could be cool, there's already a precedent for it with the master and it's sci-fi, so there's no logical reason to argue against regenerating as a female; It should be interesting and fun to see how The Doctor reacts and adapts to this seemingly new development". I stand by my initial reaction and I think Jody is killing it but if Chibnall continues to sacrifice great storytelling for overt feminist messaging and characters or dialogue espousing most men as ignorant, stupid or misogynistic then give me Moffat and Capaldi any day of the week. I can't imagine most other fans would appreciate being preached to either. The first three episodes were really good, hopefully that remains the trend and not the exception. All said and done, I'm really looking forward to getting off earth next week!

[QuantumMechanic]

Still liking Thirteen and Graham quite a bit.  (And how could you not like Ryan's shadow puppets!).

But, sadly, Chibnall is fulfilling pretty much every (low) expectation I had of him.

Also, I can understand the desire to get away from The Moff's twisty, overly-cleverish style, but I think they've gone way too far the other way.

[cardigirl]

It’s Chris Noth. There is no r. 

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Tempting as it may be given the episode, bringing real world politics into the topic will result in posts being removed and runs the risk of warnings being issued; please don't do it.

[benteen]

8 hours ago, vasahie said:

I agree.  He was really bad.  I don't remember him being that bad an actor in L&O but it has been a long time.  This was embarrassingly amateur.

If you want to talk about British writers not being able to write Americans, check out the JFK episode of The Crown.  Their portrayals of John F. Kennedy and Jackie Kennedy were truly awful and if they did any research on the two at all, it was pretty clearl that they completely ignored it.  It didn't help that Michael C. Hall was woefully miscast as JFK.  He did look or sound anything like him and if it wasn't for the fact that he was playing JFK, I wouldn't have had any idea who he was playing.

[libgirl2]

14 hours ago, rab01 said:

I think that may be because they've given themselves a really large challenge -- introduce a new Doctor and three new companions at the same time.  Usually there's some continuity either in the doctor or in the companion; newWho has never introduced three companions at once.  The only other multi-companion grouping was Rory and Amy and, through most of the run, Amy was the "real" companion and Rory was just a plus-one.  (OK, sure, Mickey, Captain Jack, River Song all got multiple trips but they were never the companion.)  It's hard to introduce 4 main characters and divvy up their screen time properly - especially when in every episode there are a bunch of scenes that could plausibly be given to any of them (e.g., "companion X opens door, screams, slams it shut and runs to find the doctor").  I think they're progressing pretty well.   (As someone up-thread pointed out, that may also be why the villains have been so flat - not enough space yet to give them internal lives.) 

I agree, usually you have that "bridge" companion. Just enough of a familiar face until you get used to the Doctor's new one. 

[darkestboy]

Not my favourite episode but still pretty enjoyable in parts.

It was nice to see Yasmin's family, who were likeable enough, especially Najia who had the most focus in this episode. I suspect we'll see more of them again.

Nice reappearance of Grace there too and I'm liking Ryan and Graham bonding a little more too.

Robertson feels like a character we'll see again. The Trump were a bit too on the nose but not enough to spoil the episode. Quite liked jade as well as a guest character. The guest characters have stood out this series more than previous ones.

Some lovely moments with the Doctor and the spiders were effective enough. 7/10

[libgirl2]

11 hours ago, Kite said:

 

blarghhh not this "I'm not homophobic/etc BUT..." again. (It's been attenuating off the last few years thankfully.) Get used to it, we're not visible to be all about YOU being virtue-signalled or w/ever, we're visible cos um, WE EXIST.

I do have gay friends that I have known for 25+ years. I don't care who one loves. Love is good. Please do not insinuate I am homophobic. Neither of us know each other. My point was I feel that it is being thrown in there gratuitously. I had no issue with Bill, on the contrary, it made the relationship with her and the Doctor better. And it fit with the stories.  I wish she could have stuck around to be the bridge companion. Loved her. 

8 hours ago, Daltrey said:

This is the root of everything that was wrong with this episode. That line was fairly innocuous, as delivered at the start by a tertiary character, in that it's not something one would find shocking or unexpected in this day and age. What followed in it's wake however, was a pretty heavy hammering of virtue signalling and political correctness that severely impacted how the story played out. Too much of it was completely unnecessary; Yaz's mom and sister being overly concerned with if she' s dating either of these new friends and if so, which one, Yaz correcting her Dad's "police woman" to "police Officer" - would any viewer really have batted an eye if this line didn't exist? - Najia saying "Do you have any idea how annoying it is when my husband's right?". Having the main characters engage in discussions of sexual preference, gender equality and political ideology while supposedly trying to find the cause of and solution to the spider problem resulted in some hackneyed exposition in the last few minutes that failed to fully explain anything. The Doctor has them trap the spiders in the panic room and collect canisters of essential oils to....do what, exactly? That plot point devolves into a ridiculous dissertation that using a gun to put a dying creature out of it's misery is a much worse fate than letting it slowly suffer in suffocation. I'm no pro gun nut by any stretch but that was just stupid. Smash cut to "Hey, Doctor, um.....can we come with?".

 

When it was announced that Jody was taking over I was intrigued and totally on board. I thought, "this could be cool, there's already a precedent for it with the master and it's sci-fi, so there's no logical reason to argue against regenerating as a female; It should be interesting and fun to see how The Doctor reacts and adapts to this seemingly new development". I stand by my initial reaction and I think Jody is killing it but if Chibnall continues to sacrifice great storytelling for overt feminist messaging and characters or dialogue espousing most men as ignorant, stupid or misogynistic then give me Moffat and Capaldi any day of the week. I can't imagine most other fans would appreciate being preached to either. The first three episodes were really good, hopefully that remains the trend and not the exception. All said and done, I'm really looking forward to getting off earth next week!

Love your name! Big Roger fan here! 

Edited October 30, 2018 by libgirl2

[cardigirl]

42 minutes ago, benteen said:

If you want to talk about British writers not being able to write Americans, check out the JFK episode of The Crown.  Their portrayals of John F. Kennedy and Jackie Kennedy were truly awful and if they did any research on the two at all, it was pretty clearl that they completely ignored it.  It didn't help that Michael C. Hall was woefully miscast as JFK.  He did look or sound anything like him and if it wasn't for the fact that he was playing JFK, I wouldn't have had any idea who he was playing.

Actually liked that episode of The Crown a lot.  (Tee hee.)  I think, mostly, because JFK and Jackie are thought of as gods in the part of the country I live in, and they were not. I thought it was an interesting storytelling choice.

As for Noth's character in this episode, I thought he was fine. I didn't think he was meant to represent all United States citizens or even all U.S. rich hotel owners.

[Llywela]

I am also leaning to the conclusion that three companions is too much. I don't think it should be - plenty of shows work beautifully with an ensemble cast, and Doctor Who has done so in the past. But here, with this group, they are really struggling to find a balance. The companions are getting some character development, and have some interesting dynamics among themselves - it is the relationship with the Doctor that simply isn't there, and that's the big problem, I think. As much as I'm enjoying the development of Graham and Ryan's relationship, that really shouldn't be the most significant relationship in this cast - yet it is. So far, it is the only relationship among the main cast that has been written as actually mattering. The Doctor treats the three companions as a job lot, interchangeable, she has no individual relationships with any of them - but she should, because the strength of a multi-companion cast should be the very different relationships that the Doctor builds with each individual (plus the different dynamics they have among themselves). I really thought that was what we were going to get this season, and there were some promising signs early on, but we are now four episodes in and there is just nothing there. The Doctor clearly likes all three, but she hasn't developed a meaningful bond with any of them. That's what is missing. That is what needs to start being built now.

But maybe that is because she knew they were going to leave as soon as she got them home. Maybe it will change now they have committed themselves to the TARDIS for the time being? I dunno. I want to think so - after Broadchurch, I expected characterisation and character dynamics to be Chibnall's strength as a showrunner, but there is definitely something missing so far.

I think part of the trouble is that there is still something about the trio that feels forced - the accidental kidnapping worked well as a device for bringing three people aboard all at once in a way that their separate but unanimous decision to stay aboard somehow doesn't. I've always thought that multi-companion casts works best if they overlap, collecting different companions from different places (different planets and eras, preferably!) - that way, you can get to know them in stages, and we also get to watch them getting to know one another.

On the whole...I don't know. I like Chibnall's general approach to the series as a showrunner - his vision of the show is much more closely aligned with mine than Moffat's ever was, and I think possibly also more so than Davies's was, he has in many ways succeeded in returning to a very Classic approach while also keeping the show fresh and modern...but I'm not really a fan of him as a writer, and this episode highlights a lot of the reasons why: a derivative plot that doesn't stand up to scrutiny, lack of clear-cut resolution, awkward dialogue, etc. I think the sheer number of episodes he has to write himself is going to be a burden, both on him and the show - it was for both Davies and Moffat, before him. I really think the show would benefit from an American-style writers room - but I also don't think it will ever have one.

[QuantumMechanic]

15 minutes ago, Llywela said:

I think the sheer number of episodes he has to write himself is going to be a burden, both on him and the show - it was for both Davies and Moffat, before him. I really think the show would benefit from an American-style writers room - but I also don't think it will ever have one.

Chibnall has said it is using an American-style writers' room.

[libgirl2]

18 minutes ago, Llywela said:

I am also leaning to the conclusion that three companions is too much. I don't think it should be - plenty of shows work beautifully with an ensemble cast, and Doctor Who has done so in the past. But here, with this group, they are really struggling to find a balance. The companions are getting some character development, and have some interesting dynamics among themselves - it is the relationship with the Doctor that simply isn't there, and that's the big problem, I think. As much as I'm enjoying the development of Graham and Ryan's relationship, that really shouldn't be the most significant relationship in this cast - yet it is. So far, it is the only relationship among the main cast that has been written as actually mattering. The Doctor treats the three companions as a job lot, interchangeable, she has no individual relationships with any of them - but she should, because the strength of a multi-companion cast should be the very different relationships that the Doctor builds with each individual (plus the different dynamics they have among themselves). I really thought that was what we were going to get this season, and there were some promising signs early on, but we are now four episodes in and there is just nothing there. The Doctor clearly likes all three, but she hasn't developed a meaningful bond with any of them. That's what is missing. That is what needs to start being built now.

But maybe that is because she knew they were going to leave as soon as she got them home. Maybe it will change now they have committed themselves to the TARDIS for the time being? I dunno. I want to think so - after Broadchurch, I expected characterisation and character dynamics to be Chibnall's strength as a showrunner, but there is definitely something missing so far.

I think part of the trouble is that there is still something about the trio that feels forced - the accidental kidnapping worked well as a device for bringing three people aboard all at once in a way that their separate but unanimous decision to stay aboard somehow doesn't. I've always thought that multi-companion casts works best if they overlap, collecting different companions from different places (different planets and eras, preferably!) - that way, you can get to know them in stages, and we also get to watch them getting to know one another.

On the whole...I don't know. I like Chibnall's general approach to the series as a showrunner - his vision of the show is much more closely aligned with mine than Moffat's ever was, and I think possibly also more so than Davies's was, he has in many ways succeeded in returning to a very Classic approach while also keeping the show fresh and modern...but I'm not really a fan of him as a writer, and this episode highlights a lot of the reasons why: a derivative plot that doesn't stand up to scrutiny, lack of clear-cut resolution, awkward dialogue, etc. I think the sheer number of episodes he has to write himself is going to be a burden, both on him and the show - it was for both Davies and Moffat, before him. I really think the show would benefit from an American-style writers room - but I also don't think it will ever have one.

Perhaps if it were Capaldi who ended up with the three and then Jodie came in? I just am not feeling the deep friendship there, at least not yet. It does feel forced. Hopefully things change. I wish we could have gotten Graham first then perhaps bring in the others. I think him losing Grace and the Doctor having lost so many people over the centuries could have been a great bond between them. I wish they would explore that!