S03.E13: A New Napkin

[OutOfTheQuestion]

On 10/30/2018 at 9:53 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

That was a great season. I wish all of the Marvel shows could be like this. Hope it comes back for season 4, and if the Chautari invasion is "The Incident" I wonder how they are going to dance around Thanos.

"I wonder why I haven't seen Luke or Danny in such a long time."

"They disappeared when Netfl...uh, Thanos snapped his fingers."

[Racj82]

On 10/27/2018 at 6:32 PM, milizard said:

As far as my feelings toward this season are concerned, I think it's my favorite so far, But season 1 comes in at a close second.  The story this season was pretty tight, though the conclusion was a big let down.  I found both Fisk and Karen incredibly annoying season 1.  Fisk was much less annoying this season, and Karen grew on me tremendously.  The actress that played her did a great job this season.  If there was one thing I didn't like this season, it was that Matt wasn't allowed to win fights.  He was supposedly better able to take on a dozen FBI agents with guns, that one person in hand-to-hand combat.  It just gets too ridiculous after a while.

I actually really liked Elektra in season 2.  She had great sexual chemistry with Matt, which was sorely lacking between Karen and Matt except maybe in the crypt.  I used to like Foggy more, but he was incredibly annoying this season.   It also annoys me whenever shows put pudgy doughboys together with super hot women.  I mean, it could be believable if there were a money/power imbalance between them, but his girlfriend has just as much money if not more.

As far as sister Maggie is concerned, I appreciate the realness the actress went for, but someone who devotes their life to a religious order is not going to have such a potty mouth.  They just aren't.  I think there's some laziness there in the script writing.

Because of course money is the only reason someone like Foggy could get an attractive woman! I think thoughts like this are a bigger problem than anything. All i ask in regards to pairings if they work or make sense as a couple based on who they are. These two are both, smart strong willed people who get each other. that's all i need.

I also dont spend time clicking what women are doing on screen which seems to be another complaint among fans. I'm just watching these characters as they are. I don't care about their gender. Throughout the season, all major and minor characters played their part in the overall character. Can't complain too much there.

I also don't care about the woman Dex trusted being murdered because that was Fisk M.O. the whole damn season. He doesn't give a damn about their gender.

[Taryn74]

16 minutes ago, Racj82 said:

Because of course money is the only reason someone like Foggy could get an attractive woman! I think thoughts like this are a bigger problem than anything. All i ask in regards to pairings if they work or make sense as a couple based on who they are. These two are both, smart strong willed people who get each other. that's all i need.

I also don't spend time clicking what women are doing on screen which seems to be another complaint among fans. I'm just watching these characters as they are. I don't care about their gender. Throughout the season, all major and minor characters played their part in the overall character. Can't complain too much there.

I also don't care about the woman Dex trusted being murdered because that was Fisk M.O. the whole damn season. He doesn't give a damn about their gender.

Yes!  To all of this.  Yes, yes, yes!

[millennium]

Great season.   I liked that it was not reliant on any arc, crossover plots or cameos by other Defenders characters.   It was a solid, self-contained story.  And this time around the writers even managed to avoid those lame few episodes where you realize you're watching filler.

I didn't like the devil's bargain Matt made with Fisk, but what can you do.   I feel no sympathy for Dex being psychologically manipulated by Matt.   Dex is the guy who killed a Holocaust survivor to curry favor with Fisk, killed a priest, killed Nadeem, and how many others.   IMHO, Matt has no responsibility to him.

[Racj82]

10 hours ago, millennium said:

Great season.   I liked that it was not reliant on any arc, crossover plots or cameos by other Defenders characters.   It was a solid, self-contained story.  And this time around the writers even managed to avoid those lame few episodes where you realize you're watching filler.

I didn't like the devil's bargain Matt made with Fisk, but what can you do.   I feel no sympathy for Dex being psychologically manipulated by Matt.   Dex is the guy who killed a Holocaust survivor to curry favor with Fisk, killed a priest, killed Nadeem, and how many others.   IMHO, Matt has no responsibility to him.

Yes to all of that. 

There is also something poetic about Matt using Dex the same way Fisk did.

If the show ever returns, we will probably see Dex being able to operate on his own terms now.

Also, I'm glad Fisk didn't die. Simply because comic properties have a bad habit of killing off major characters that should be around for much longer.

[Pike Ludwell]

I'm not super eager to see Fisk return. I think it's time to go in a new direction. Matt's thinking was flawed in not killing him. He was thinking too much and being a little too clever by half. It would have been self defense and defense of his friends. His catholicism and foggy persuaded him he couldn't live with himself if he did so? He'd be a new person he couldn't live with? Yet in the course of the series he's killed or maimed countless people in his fights. Why is immediate self defense so different from defending oneself and friends from rather certain future attacks from an extremely powerful foe? I'm not heavily into Marvel, but is it one of Marvel's things for its heroes to be constantly obsessing and overthinking on morality, so that is what led the writers to go that rather forced route?

Also, the idea that a morbidly obese out of shape old guy like Fisk is such an incredible fighter defies credulity. I loved it when he punched a brick wall as hard as he could, basically said ouch, and continued fighting as if all was fine.  You really have to suspend disbelief in a major way at these fight scenes. I just focus on the stunt performance, the gags, and the general artistry behind the whole setup, and then I can enjoy the insanity of it all.

[Captanne]

I think the moral issues are wide open and legitimately debatable.  

As for Fisk's size and strength?  I read Marvel comics as a kid and one thing about them was the variations on size could be part of one's "super power".  There are a lot of Daredevil maneuvers I don't believe he should be able to do even with his ninja training -- especially blind.  It's a comicbook world, here.  Isn't there a tiny superhero like an ant or something?  In other words, Marvel gets to define the abilities of the character -- regardless of our RL standards of proportion.  Fisk being huge and bald (kind of like that ice guy) and overwhelmingly powerful doesn't bother me at all.  He's a Marvel villain -- the rules don't apply as long as they stay consistent with the narrative.  

[Kel Varnsen]

On 05/11/2018 at 4:43 PM, Captanne said:

  As for Fisk's size and strength?  I read Marvel comics as a kid and one thing about them was the variations on size could be part of one's "super power".  There are a lot of Daredevil maneuvers I don't believe he should be able to do even with his ninja training -- especially blind.  It's a comicbook world, here.  Isn't there a tiny superhero like an ant or something?  In other words, Marvel gets to define the abilities of the character -- regardless of our RL standards of proportion.  Fisk being huge and bald (kind of like that ice guy) and overwhelmingly powerful doesn't bother me at all.  He's a Marvel villain -- the rules don't apply as long as they stay consistent with the narrative.  

Matt's skill as a fighter has always varied throughtout the series. If I remember back to the start of the first season his radar sense and training gave him a slight edgw over people who could see. The ep where he fights the dude who killed himself at the end rather than reveal Fisk's name Matt barely won. But in other fights he can take down goons without being touched.

[Anela]

I loved it!! I may have yelled, "Get him!!!" during that fight scene. 

I was disappointed that he protected Vanessa, and Fisk to a point. I thought the point of winding up Dex with the truth, was to get him to kill Fisk. I do not like Vanessa being free, but she is the only reason that Fisk agreed to leave everyone alone, so I guess it's okay. And as someone who deals with mental illness, just not that one, I'm okay with what he did, because he deserved to know the truth. He thought that Julie just cut him off, and blocked his number, after she'd been so kind to him before. FISK was the one who used his mental illness against him. Dex was happy to murder people for Fisk, or just because. He killed a woman in cold blood, to get a painting for Vanessa. He was willing to kill Karen, all because Fisk manipulated him, and told him to. He became his "north star" through a lie, and murder of the one person that kept him on a decent and human path. He had already gone over the edge. 

Glad the three friends are all back together. One thing I hate, though, is the thing with the eyes popping open like that. I knew it would happen, and was hoping they'd just keep his eyes closed, and let the realization that he would now be back, and stronger than ever, be what we were left with. 

I'm glad this season was so much better than the second one. I wish I hadn't been so distracted through the first half of it, but I wasn't expecting much, after season two. I like this show, Jessica Jones, and the Punisher. This would be a good place to end it, I hate to think of them coming back with another season that might not be so good, just to get a fourth one out there. I know Jessica Jones is filming a third season now. 

[CertainJewel]

13 hours ago, Anela said:

Glad the three friends are all back together. One thing I hate, though, is the thing with the eyes popping open like that. I knew it would happen, and was hoping they'd just keep his eyes closed, and let the realization that he would now be back, and stronger than ever, be what we were left with. 

If you're talking about Dex then I believe it's to show the bullseye in his eye. Probably for the comic book fans. 

[Anela]

I'm actually disappointed that I finished the season/series. I suppose that I could watch it all again, but it isn't the same. It was nice having something to look forward to - that doesn't happen often with TV, anymore.

[CertainJewel]

This one was a long wait too. Yikes! Is this going to be a trend? If it is a two year wait I'll likely lose interest. Maybe watch the first episode and see if I care. 

[moonshine71]

My thoughts about the killing issue and Fisk after a rewatch.

At this point, Matt's moral dilemma makes little sense to me. Especially his blocking of Dex's baton thrown at Fisk, that could have ended things right there. 1. Matt took part in the bombing of Midland Circle, he was the first of the "Defenders" to buy into the plan, in which blew up a building on top of dozens of Hand agents who they had rendered unconscious and/or trapped and surely consigned them to death. 2. In season 2, he clearly dropped his "no killing" demand of Electra from the point they rescued Stick and onward. At one point on the rooftop, she kills a ninja right in front of him and they then smile and banter together for a moment. 3. Also in season 2, he was prepared to go that route with Frank, before Frank threw him off the boat he was accepting that one time they could do things Frank's way.

 

That said, I think the real killing dilemma for him should still be what it makes him, a full on criminal. He still enjoys, barring the attempted frame up, some level of acceptance from the police(especially Brett). That goes away if he starts killing people, especially executing them when they are subdued(as Fisk was to some degree). There is really no way to have him killing people and have the police look the other way, even if he's doing it in heated combat and self defense. He'd still be obligated to turn himself in and defend his actions legally. So I'm still in the corner of not killing. Stopping Dex, though, eh, can't really come up with a good reason.

 

I can still find it interesting to some degree. And I thought it presented some interesting contrast and comparisons. Specifically with Jessica Jones, who did cross that line with her villain and we saw her attempts to cope with it in season 2(and not having a secret identity, she could accept police scrutiny into the matter; although, like DD, the lives taken at Midland Circle don't seem to concern her). And also  we saw Karen basically give him the same talk Frank did in the boat, there was no doing it "one time", there was no going back from crossing that line. Which was a nice quiet nod to why those two "get" each other(but god no, I don't want too see anything romantic between Frank and Karen).

Edited November 11, 2018 by moonshine71

[moonshine71]

On 11/8/2018 at 10:42 AM, CertainJewel said:

This one was a long wait too. Yikes! Is this going to be a trend? If it is a two year wait I'll likely lose interest. Maybe watch the first episode and see if I care. 

I don't consider it a full 2 year wait, since the Defenders came in the middle of that, and also wouldn't expect that much time if a season 4 is greenlit, since there are no plans for another Defenders season.

Edited November 11, 2018 by moonshine71

[moonshine71]

Now, my real take away on season 3. Jfc, are they ever gonna let Matt get laid? Three seasons, 3 love interests, and approximately 3 years of in-show time, and he can't get past first base(Electra was a flashback from 10 years prior).Every other hero does, Luke Cage sleeps with every women he is alone with for more than 5 minutes. And Karen? I think it's official that Matt and Karen are the only multi-season regulars on any of the shows that haven't gotten laid. No wonder they are so glum and depressed all the time. Jebus, let those two knock one out together. Even if you can't stand them together, maybe Karen can get cozy with Ellison's nephew for a while(no, not Frank, he's the Punisher, he'll never be over his wife). And after rewatching the Defenders, I'm convinced that when Trish asked Karen what was up with her and that lawyer, she was asking because she was checking Matt out. I could go for a little Hellcat/Daredevil as a stand in for the comics Black Widow/Daredevil relationship, prowling around rooftops together.

[blueray]

They've got laid. Matt definitely slept with Karen while they were dating at the beginning of season 2. He also probably slept with Electra when they were together back in college.  As for season 3, there wasn't time for that ;). Who's the third love interest?

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, blueray said:

They've got laid. Matt definitely slept with Karen while they were dating at the beginning of season 2. He also probably slept with Electra when they were together back in college.  As for season 3, there wasn't time for that ;). Who's the third love interest?

The show made a point of showing us that Matt and Karen did not sleep together, during the very brief period they were dating - we saw that they only went on one actual date, and Karen invited Matt to come up to her apartment afterward, but he said no, he wanted to take the relationship more slowly (it fell apart immediately afterward). And while yes, he definitely did sleep with Elektra while they dated in college, I believe OP was saying that we haven't seen him get laid during the three seasons of the show, which is true.

The third love interest was Claire. They got as far as snogging, but she decided he was too much like hard work.

[catrice2]

I honestly did not see any romantic chemistry between Matt and Karen in this series. I did see them taken their understanding of each other to a different level. I thought he in Elektra did sleep together in the second series but she annoys me so much I may have just decided they did without actually seeing that. I'm actually fine without having romance in my action and Heroes series. I personally think it might ease the waters and it always makes the hero weaker when they have someone to use against them. I did just like the fact that Fisk was able to handle the two in a fight but to be fair Matt spent a lot of time keeping Dex from Fisk. I I really hope that they do not bring fisk, Vanessa or Electra back if there is a next series. Most importantly I just hope there is a next series.

I just hate that they wasted Claire in the Luke Cage series. They should have left her unattached and weaving throughout all of the series.  my guess is that they might try a Daughters of the dragons and have Iron Fist in one or two episodes, and then also possibly have Luke Cage in Jessica Jones

[CertainJewel]

23 hours ago, moonshine71 said:

are they ever gonna let Matt get laid?

I laughed to hard at this! I thought Claire and Matt did but when I re-watched season 1 it looks like they didn't. I'm glad Karen and Matt didn't because I don't think they work. I don't see any connection other than friendship. And...well Electra is Electra. :P

4 hours ago, catrice2 said:

They should have left her unattached and weaving throughout all of the series.

This so much! She's a great character. I didn't watch all of Luke Cage so.... in my mind she's still around. Yes yes she is.

[Taryn74]

6 hours ago, catrice2 said:

I just hate that they wasted Claire in the Luke Cage series. They should have left her unattached and weaving throughout all of the series.  

Completely agree!  I loved Claire in Daredevil.  I was bored to death with her in Luke Cage.

 

6 hours ago, catrice2 said:

my guess is that they might try a Daughters of the dragons and have Iron Fist in one or two episodes, and then also possibly have Luke Cage in Jessica Jones

I could get behind this.  Some of the characters (actors?) work much better as a side character rather than a main, and Danny Rand and Luke Cage are two of them.

 

Anyone else disappointed we didn't get a Turk sighting this season?

[catrice2]

Yep.  but wasn't he wasted in another series? I just wish someone in the powers-that-be would just admit that Mike Colterwas not the best that they could have done for Luke Cage. What really irritates me is that I feel like the whole Claire and Luke thing was totally about race. They thought it would be a good idea to show two people of color together in one of these series because they had no chemistry whatsoever and their relationship never made sense.  that's just my opinion but I really do think that influenced it especially since regardless of the comics a lot of people were irritated that he was with Jessica Jones

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Anyone else disappointed we didn't get a Turk sighting this season?

Yes! I kept wondering when he would show up! And was disappointed that he didn’t!

[marcee]

I loved Dex as a character, but I gotta say - all this talk about 'putting the work in' and comparing him to Matt with regard to mental illness...There really is no comparison. Dex doesn't have a moral compass at all. He has zero compassion/empathy; he is a true psychopath. That's not to say I didn't love him; I did. That's not to say I didn't want to see him take his shirt off; oh did I ever. But Dex was always a bomb near the end of its fuse. You were reminded of this time and time again with his, "That must be hard. That must be really hard." He was playing a part. He couldn't work to get better. He couldn't BE normal; he was "working" to fit into a society that would never understand or accept him. He would/could never be happy, regardless of Julie or Fisk or his job. It was never going to get better for him.

I posted this in an earlier thread before I completed the season, but I feel it needs to be said again now that the season is over. While I really enjoyed the overall arc, I gotta say, the reason one of the FBI agents didn't just put a bullet in Fisk completely escapes me. If there were SO many agents/cops/etc under Fisk's thumb - all apparently against their wills, why didn't someone just shoot him in the head? At any time? Ever? No one even considered it? Fisk killed an agent's CHILD and she never thought that putting one between his eyes was an option? There were 10 agents in that room with him. If one pulled out his or her weapon and shot him dead, was there no way for the other 9 to come up with a plausible scenario to keep them all out of prison? Whatever happened after would HAVE to be better than continuing to fear for your and your family's lives day in and day out. This ginormous plot hole ruined much of this season for me. When all I could think was, "Shoot him now." "Just shoot him now." "How bout now?" "Now?" "What's stopping you now?"

And with regard to Vanessa - while they obviously didn't flesh her out, they did show her to be strong woman and gave us hints to her nature. When she saw the blood on the frame of the painting... when she made the call 'tie up loose ends' (re: Naveen) in the video surveillance room, I felt like we got a taste of her cunning and malice. She never shut down; she never turned into a blubbering damsel. She always seemed to be in control. That was enough for me. Hopefully there's more to come with her character.

[CertainJewel]

3 hours ago, marcee said:

the reason one of the FBI agents didn't just put a bullet in Fisk completely escapes me. If there were SO many agents/cops/etc under Fisk's thumb - all apparently against their wills, why didn't someone just shoot him in the head? At any time? Ever? No one even considered it? Fisk killed an agent's CHILD and she never thought that putting one between his eyes was an option? There were 10 agents in that room with him. If one pulled out his or her weapon and shot him dead, was there no way for the other 9 to come up with a plausible scenario to keep them all out of prison? Whatever happened after would HAVE to be better than continuing to fear for your and your family's lives day in and day out. This ginormous plot hole ruined much of this season for me. When all I could think was, "Shoot him now." "Just shoot him now." "How bout now?" "Now?" "What's stopping you now?"

I can believe this. Why didn't the German people stop Hitler? It had to take a lot of man power to kill so many people. Yet it happened. I'm not a historian and not well versed in history either but I do wonder what it was that the people in Germany allowed such atrocities. I do know that there were failed attempts to kill him. So, yes Fisk taking over the FBI is somewhat believable and the fact that Fisk is a fictional character.

3 hours ago, marcee said:

Hopefully there's more to come with her character.

Completely agree!

[marcee]

47 minutes ago, CertainJewel said:

I can believe this. Why didn't the German people stop Hitler? It had to take a lot of man power to kill so many people. Yet it happened. I'm not a historian and not well versed in history either but I do wonder what it was that the people in Germany allowed such atrocities. I do know that there were failed attempts to kill him. So, yes Fisk taking over the FBI is somewhat believable and the fact that Fisk is a fictional character.

Completely agree!

But Hitler got people to buy into his ideology. His lieutenants believed in what he was selling and ordinary people who knew it was wrong had no individual power or means to stop him.

I’m looking at trained FBI agents who hated themselves. In particular, a woman, in a position of power, whose CHILD Fisk killed...who shot a fellow FBI member in cold blood. She had the motive, opportunity and means. It just seemed so silly. These cops and feds who were numb to the violence at this point didn’t just think “to hell with this shit” and pop him? Eh. I just couldn’t buy it. But yes, fiction and plot...I get it. Still entertaining as hell to watch.

Edited November 12, 2018 by marcee
Fixed wonky spacing I didn't see from mobile device.

[moonshine71]

On 11/12/2018 at 4:36 PM, marcee said:

But Hitler got people to buy into his ideology. His lieutenants believed in what he was selling and ordinary people who knew it was wrong had no individual power or means to stop him.

I’m looking at trained FBI agents who hated themselves. In particular, a woman, in a position of power, whose CHILD Fisk killed...who shot a fellow FBI member in cold blood. She had the motive, opportunity and means. It just seemed so silly. These cops and feds who were numb to the violence at this point didn’t just think “to hell with this shit” and pop him? Eh. I just couldn’t buy it. But yes, fiction and plot...I get it. Still entertaining as hell to watch.

Another little oddity, earlier in that episode Ray mentions that he had known her for ten years, then later she tells Ray that she had two children and one died/was killed, as if he had no idea about that. How long has she been in Fisk's pocket? I'm not sure how you could work with someone and not know about that, i have coworkers I barely know and never interact with, but that would be something I would here about and over them condolences for.

[festivus]

Well, I knew as soon as Fisk and Vanessa ended up in the apartment that we'd see 'Rabbit in a Snowstorm' painted with Fisk's blood and in that I wasn't disappointed. I just wanted it to end in his death. Matt thinks he beat Fisk, and maybe he did but I think Vanessa is more dangerous. Well maybe not more, but just as. She's cold and calculating where Fisk is rage. I think Matt will end up more sorry that he didn't just let Dex kill them.

 

I enjoyed this season despite the religious angst which is just not my thing. It keeps Daredevil from being my favorite of the Netflix shows even though it is so well acted. Karen was the bright shining star of this season for me and I hope she is in the next season of The Punisher. Even though it does beg the question of "where the hell was Frank?" I feel like he would know the trouble she was in and nothing would keep him away. If these shows are connected this is the kind of thing that is hard for me to handwave. I know I'm just supposed to go with it but it bothers me.

 

On the shallow end, I knew he wouldn't make it but I'm sad there will be no more Ray. There goes my eyecandy. And speaking of: I miss Claire.

[Taryn74]

45 minutes ago, festivus said:

Matt thinks he beat Fisk, and maybe he did but I think Vanessa is more dangerous. Well maybe not more, but just as. She's cold and calculating where Fisk is rage.

I agree.  I see a lot of "why didn't the FBI just kill Fisk and be done with it?" comments, and to a certain extent I can agree with that, but I think they would find themselves in just as big of a mess (if not bigger) with Vanessa, even if Fisk himself was out of the picture.

[marcee]

35 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

I agree.  I see a lot of "why didn't the FBI just kill Fisk and be done with it?" comments, and to a certain extent I can agree with that, but I think they would find themselves in just as big of a mess (if not bigger) with Vanessa, even if Fisk himself was out of the picture.

But they wouldn't know that or even suspect that. And the writers could have (and maybe should have) gone that route. Because it still doesn't make ANY sense that no one even made an attempt.

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, marcee said:

But they wouldn't know that or even suspect that. 

Why not?  Fisk wasn't dating Vanessa privately.  The public knew about her, and the FBI certainly did (her safety was part of his agreement to work with them, as I recall).  Unless they were operating under the delusion that Vanessa was completely unaware of Fisk's criminal activities and would never condone such behavior or continue his "work" after he was gone, they had to at least suspect that she would become a problem if he were to die in custody.  They may not know to what extent, but the possibility would certainly be in their minds IMO.

[moonshine71]

19 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Why not?  Fisk wasn't dating Vanessa privately.  The public knew about her, and the FBI certainly did (her safety was part of his agreement to work with them, as I recall).  Unless they were operating under the delusion that Vanessa was completely unaware of Fisk's criminal activities and would never condone such behavior or continue his "work" after he was gone, they had to at least suspect that she would become a problem if he were to die in custody.  They may not know to what extent, but the possibility would certainly be in their minds IMO.

Why? Simply because she's his girlfriend/wife? Lots of organized crime figures have significant others, very few step into their partners roles when they go down. Why would they have any reason to believe she is capable of continuing his work with him gone?

 

Even as viewers, why on earth should we believe that she could run Fisk's organization with him dead? She's an art gallery manager. She was fully taken into his confidence on his business for all of 24 hours. She has no idea how everything works. Her order to go after Ray would have carried no weight without Fisk behind it. Why would anyone even follow her w/ Fisk gone? 

 

She's a nasty, greedy, cold person. That's a long way from being an untouchable criminal mastermind that's above the law.

[Chicago Redshirt]

It seems a fair guess that anyone pressured into working for Kingpin knew the score same as Ray did: make a move against Kingpin, and the mob will not only take you out but kill all your friends and family just so no one else gets any bright ideas. 

Sure, anyone of them could kill Kingpin. But even if you cut off the head of that metaphorical snake, it will be some time before the rest of it dies. Are you going to risk the lives of all your loved ones on the notion that the Fixer, Vanessa, Dex, other crooked cops/FBI agents or whoever won't be able to execute revenge in a timely fashion?

[MisterGlass]

13 hours ago, moonshine71 said:

She's a nasty, greedy, cold person. That's a long way from being an untouchable criminal mastermind that's above the law.

If she has power of attorney over the money, and it's accessible, then she could continue to employ Fisk's army of criminals.  There's no Wesley to rely on, but I'm sure they could help her get started. 

[Ottis]

Really liked this season and this series. Lots of philosophical discussion underpinning it all. And Fisk is fantastic, IMO. My only wish would have been that he returned more to his season 1 point that he, too, wanted to improve HK, just in a different approach than DD. 

Well done, show. You need to come back...in less than two years.

[moonshine71]

12 hours ago, Ottis said:

Really liked this season and this series. Lots of philosophical discussion underpinning it all. And Fisk is fantastic, IMO. My only wish would have been that he returned more to his season 1 point that he, too, wanted to improve HK, just in a different approach than DD. 

Well done, show. You need to come back...in less than two years.

Sorry, never bought into Fisk's bullshit about "making Hell's Kitchen a better place", that was just a bunch nonsense rationalization. His version of making it a better place somehow includes putting heroin on the streets, trading humans as sex slaves, killing whoever when the mood strikes him, and just coincidentally making hundreds of millions of dollars off of all his plans. That's not a different approach, that's crap. He was just justifying his lust for power and money. 

[Ottis]

10 hours ago, moonshine71 said:

Sorry, never bought into Fisk's bullshit about "making Hell's Kitchen a better place", that was just a bunch nonsense rationalization. His version of making it a better place somehow includes putting heroin on the streets, trading humans as sex slaves, killing whoever when the mood strikes him, and just coincidentally making hundreds of millions of dollars off of all his plans. That's not a different approach, that's crap. He was just justifying his lust for power and money. 

That's where the second half of season one went, and that was disappoint ing. It cheapened a great premise. But the idea of having Fisk have a similar goal but different means is intriguing and like I said, I wish they had spent more time on that.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Ottis

[Kel Varnsen]

On 19/11/2018 at 11:16 AM, Taryn74 said:

I agree.  I see a lot of "why didn't the FBI just kill Fisk and be done with it?" comments, and to a certain extent I can agree with that, but I think they would find themselves in just as big of a mess (if not bigger) with Vanessa, even if Fisk himself was out of the picture.

I am not so sure  Fisk has shown to be not just smart but a super meticulous planner. It's like practically his super power. I am not sure any of his goons or even his wife could take over and run things at that level. And the more I think about it i just didn't buy the whole Fisk killed my son so I must go work for him thing. Maybe it is cliche but usually if you go after law enforcement people's family they find ways to make you pay.

Plus as far as the FBI goes why didn't Karen just expose all the agents working for Fisk. Use Ray as your source. Plus i have to imagine if you go high enough up in the FBI org chart you will find someone not working for Fisk. I doubt he has the FBI director on his payroll. So just find someone to suspend all those dirty agents and Fisk loses a ton of power.

[Ottis]

On 11/24/2018 at 5:29 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

Plus as far as the FBI goes why didn't Karen just expose all the agents working for Fisk. Use Ray as your source. Plus i have to imagine if you go high enough up in the FBI org chart you will find someone not working for Fisk. I doubt he has the FBI director on his payroll. So just find someone to suspend all those dirty agents and Fisk loses a ton of power.

That's part of the problem for Karen and team, though - how far up, and how wide, is the corruption? I predicted the female FBI boss as a stooge almost as soon as we met her, because there was something off about the way she listened to Nadeem's theories without objection, as if she were going to then inform someone. But as far as Karen, Matt and Foggy know, anyone can be part of Fisk's circle. That's why Matt felt he had to take matters into his own hands. Meanwhile. Foggy tried "the system" and, for the sake of the show's themes, it also worked. As for Karen, given all her poor decisions all season long, I'm not sure I would count on her to pick the best path, anyway.

On 11/24/2018 at 5:29 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

I am not so sure  Fisk has shown to be not just smart but a super meticulous planner. It's like practically his super power.

That is exactly the way we looked at it, and I loved that the show gave him a super power. And that Matt saw it and warned people that "this is what he does - he finds a weakness and he uses it." It creates a unique relationship between DD, who ultimately has to use blunt force, and Kingpin, who  uses his super power and then goes to blunt force when DD or others can shake Kingpin's self control. WAY better than fighting 172 ninjas from The Hand.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Ottis

[AKA...CJ86]

This should have been Season Two. The 2018 MCU-flix Seasons really hit it out of the park this year, each Season was better and better, which is why I'm totally heartbroken for Iron Fist and Cage.

I will say though, absolutely my favorite episode of the series, but then they cheesily end the episode with that bullseye reflection in Dex's eye.

[Kel Varnsen]

20 hours ago, Ottis said:

That's part of the problem for Karen and team, though - how far up, and how wide, is the corruption? I predicted the female FBI boss as a stooge almost as soon as we met her, because there was something off about the way she listened to Nadeem's theories without objection, as if she were going to then inform someone. But as far as Karen, Matt and Foggy know, anyone can be part of Fisk's circle. That's why Matt felt he had to take matters into his own hands. Meanwhile. Foggy tried "the system" and, for the sake of the show's themes, it also worked. As for Karen, given all her poor decisions all season long, I'm not sure I would count on her to pick the best path, anyway.

That's why making it public made sense to me. That way someone high enough up in the FBI who isn't comprimised or someone who realizes that cleaning up things is a smart political play can arrest or at least investigate a bunch of corrupt agents. Sure you probably wouldn't get Fisk this way but taking out his agents gets ridof a ton of his power. Unless Fisk owned everyone up to the attorney general, the head of the FBI and POTUS.

[Ottis]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

That's why making it public made sense to me. That way someone high enough up in the FBI who isn't comprimised or someone who realizes that cleaning up things is a smart political play can arrest or at least investigate a bunch of corrupt agents. Sure you probably wouldn't get Fisk this way but taking out his agents gets ridof a ton of his power. Unless Fisk owned everyone up to the attorney general, the head of the FBI and POTUS.

It's fun debating this! There was a scene in the finale (I think, possibly one before) of Fisk walking to a microphone while "the public" chanted slogans against him, holding up signs. And as he talked about how he was framed and they were manipulated, the jeers died out and the crowd became quiet. Then, later in the episode, we hear some dialogue from a radio or TV show (or maybe it was a conversation DD could hear), where a regular Joe or Jane says Fisk was framed and didn't do those things. The point of all of that was if Fisk can manipulate powerful people with resources, then manipulating the public is a breeze for him.

Going public might have alerted more people to what was going on, but Fisk would have had an answer for it and turned it to his advantage. And the only way the FBI could stop it would be for an incredibly courageous leader to step up (a la Gordon in Batman), and from what we saw, that wasn't likely (and even if it happened, Fisk's superpower is persuasion and planning, not wanton violence - could Gordon have beaten Fisk? Seems unlikely).

So I think the show addressed this point adequately to not go in that direction. YMMV.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Ottis

[Dobian]

Great ending to my favorite season of Daredevil, but bittersweet now knowing that we'll never see these actors in these roles again.  I was hoping they would just end it with Matt, Foggy, and Karen sitting around the table having beers, but of course they put in the "to be continued" scene with Bullseye having his spine repaired, setting him up as Daredevil's archnemesis for the next season we will never get to watch.  This was a great show and I will miss it.  No new Daredevil incarnation will ever live up to this one, I don;t think.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Dobian

[sinkwriter]

On 10/20/2018 at 10:33 PM, slayer2 said:

Like you mentioned even Vanessa doesn't have her own agency nor is she perceived as anything more than clueless child "caught up" in her  husband's "business".

That was not the Vanessa I saw in this series. She was not clueless to me. I saw her going into that relationship with her eyes wide open. She knew exactly what Fisk was, and she decided to go out with him anyway. She decided to marry the guy, and was certainly not caught up when she pushed Fisk to have Ray killed instead of merely discredited. We should have learned more about her, yes, but she was in no way clueless or a child. She knew what she was doing. We just don't know why she made such a choice, except for her mysterious comment to Fisk that she's not innocent and hasn't been, well before he came along.

[sinkwriter]

On 10/21/2018 at 8:01 PM, slayer2 said:

Also when Dex needed more help he reached out to Julie who was willing to help him of course he would not have tried to reach out to her or get her involved at all if Fisk hadn't shoved her in his direction.

No, perhaps not, but he probably would have kept stalking her. He wasn't some innocent. He was smart and calculating and knew what Fisk was. If he truly cared about Julie, he would have kept her out of it and stayed away from her after he freaked her out the first time.

[sinkwriter]

On 11/7/2018 at 5:47 PM, Anela said:

One thing I hate, though, is the thing with the eyes popping open like that. I knew it would happen, and was hoping they'd just keep his eyes closed, and let the realization that he would now be back, and stronger than ever, be what we were left with. 

Yeah, I wished we could have ended with the main 3 enjoying their time together and skip the Dex reveal. They just made it seem like he's going to be all Terminator now, with his metal spine or whatever, and that made me eyeroll. Matt barely beat him as it was, because Dex had his magical perfect aim every single time, so to make him pretty much a mechanical killing machine bores and annoys me. I know it's a moot point, but I wouldn't have wanted him to come back.

[sinkwriter]

I thought this was a hell of a season, and I spent the final episodes on the edge of my seat. I'll miss the show. I really enjoyed it, and loved the actors.

[rmontro]

I've been finishing up the Netflix Marvel series, just two more to go now (final seasons of Punisher and Jessica Jones).  Watching this one made me forget how well they've done the Daredevil one, and how much I liked it.  Jessica Jones is good, and may even be a better character, but I really believe the Daredevil series is the best.  In the end, I almost felt sorry for Fisk and couldn't take too much satisfaction in his defeat.

I guess Matt just wanted to lure Bullseye to Fisk's wedding so he could finish him off, but considering how easily he had been beating him up until now, he was really putting some people at risk.

Funny how Fisk kept twirling his thumbs a lot, especially in the earlier episodes.  I figure that was an acting choice by D'onofrio indicating that there's more going on in Fisk's mind than is immediately apparent.

[LJones41]

I really loathed Season Three.  I really did.  

The season never explained who had saved Matt Murdock’s life after the events of “The Defenders”.   Matt spent most of the season being traumatized by what happened in “The Defenders”, without anyone finding out who had saved him.  And he made some really stupid mistakes.  Yet, at the last moment, he suddenly became this chipper, uber competent vigilante without any real explanation for his change in attitude.  

Did we really need Kingpin again?  I didn’t.  Nor did I need the manner in which he took control of the Manhattan branch of the F.B.I.  I mean, what was that?  Fisk's entire arc had become so unrealistic that by the ninth or tenth episode, I found myself rolling my eyes in disbelief.  How could a convicted gangster, who had lost most of his money while in prison, managed to gain so much control over the F.B.I. via one sharpshooter?  Seriously?  There weren’t any other sharpshooters in the F.B.I.?  

And then there was Foggy Nelson and his decision to run for District Attorney . . . in order to save his ass from the Kingpin.  I had to watch, while he literally pushed the idea of an uber-militant police force.  His meeting with the NYPD union could have easily been an Americanized version of a Nazi rally in Berlin 1936.  It’s bad enough that the season painted the F.B.I. as the bad guys with the black hats (or easily manipulated) and the New York Police as this dedicated group of good guys.  But an even more militant police force?  What was Foggy trying to do?  Create an American version of the Gestapo?  

I’m still amazed that I used to like Karen Page back in Season One.  I’m still trying to figure out why the showrunners thought she was capable of changing careers so quick in order to become a journalist.  I thought the flashback about her past would explain this, but it never did.  Speaking of which, why was there an entire episode about Karen’s past?  It had nothing to do with the season’s main narrative.  I LOATHED the scene in which she had pulled a gun on this group of black men for heckling another woman.  The thing is . . . Karen had pulled this stunt after the woman had managed to walk away from them.  The racism in this scene really irritated me to no end.  

But . . . that scene with Karen and the hecklers proved to be typical of “Daredevil” . . . especially during this season.  The latter featured numerous scenes of minorities being the recipients of violence by either the protagonists or the antagonists without any real explanation.  Is showrunner Erik Olson some kind of racist or what?

I would like discuss Ray Nadeem.  I would love to.  I rather liked him and wished he could have been the main protagonist of this story.  Alas, the show runners made him this pathetic victim of the Kingpin, who ended up murdered.   As for Bullseye . . . it did not take long for me to get bored with his backstory or how he went from an FBI agent to Fisk's main enforcer.  The whole story arc was barely plausible in my eyes.

I realize that many have pushed the idea of "Daredevil" being the best series in the Marvel Netflix franchise.  Personally?  I think it is the worst.  I have only managed to enjoy Season One - and even that season had suffered from uneven pacing in the middle episodes.  Season Two struck me as disjointed.  The two arcs featuring Frank Castle and Elektra Natchios were unable to really connect with each other.  And only the performances of Jon Bernthal and Elodie Yung saved that season for me. 

Season Three, on the other hand, was a disaster to me.  The portrayal of the NYPD as the "white hats" of the city and Fisk managing to assume control of the entire Manhattan FBI office was a joke to me.  The racism that permeated this season even more than Seasons One and Two made it worse.  So, for me, "Daredevil" is the worst Marvel Netflix series.

Edited June 17, 2020 by LJones41

[Affogato]

On 11/6/2018 at 5:51 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Matt's skill as a fighter has always varied throughtout the series. If I remember back to the start of the first season his radar sense and training gave him a slight edgw over people who could see. The ep where he fights the dude who killed himself at the end rather than reveal Fisk's name Matt barely won. But in other fights he can take down goons without being touched.

I think in season 3 he’s badly damaged. He isn’t doing backflips and he often walks like it hurts. So maybe he’ll get back to more ninja stuff if he ever heals.