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S03.E13: A New Napkin


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Daredevil and Kingpin both fighting Bullseye to protect Vanessa was the last thing I ever expected to see.

But I guess if Matt just stood by and let him kill them he wouldn’t be a hero. And as long as they’re both alive he has a way of controlling Fisk. The same way he controlled so many other people, when he used their families against them. Very fitting.

Also the return of Nelson and Murdock, with the addition of Page at the end. Really great way to wrap things up.

This season has been nothing less than stellar. I hope the show is renewed for another. But if it isn’t, this almost feels like a perfect ending to the series.

Edited by rogvortex58
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I really didn't like this season at all and just thought Daredevil using Bullseye's last bit of humanity against him like that was despicable. I thought Matt was supposed to be in the business of redemption and saving souls, that's his stupid reason for saving Kingpin when that motherfucker should be dead as a door nail yet when it comes to Dex I guess it's just fine to use his only remaining weakness against him all so Matt can feel superior to Kingpin. 

 

Most people could probably see Matt wasn't going to kill Kingpin which means all he really wanted to do was look Kingpin in the eye and beat him senseless (since he didn't know about Nadeem's sacrifice when he went in there) so he basically used a person's mental illness against them to pave the way for his (Matt's) own twisted obsession with physically beating Kingpin. 

When you see it that way it is not about saving the city at all. Julie, Nadeem, the Priest, the Informant and his son (who didn't die but lost a father) all the collateral damage (read people) caught in the crossfire didn't mean anything at the end of the day as long as Matt and Karen got their man and story respectively. You can tell this was written by someone with a very particular view or experience in the world by the way the marginalized people were absolutely thrown under a bus in this season especially by those purported to be heroes. 

Also where were the women? Karen was the only female in the season that got any real characterization. You have a cop who is a Mom whose child has been murdered by Kingpin and she's just content to fall in line? (and a last minute mea culpa after he was already charged doesn't count) The Walking Dead dealt with this issue far better. 

It felt like a rehash of season 1 especially the ending. I didn't see any growth from Matt at all just regression actually kind of like Luke Cage in season 2. D'onofrio is an absolutely wonderful actor but that's no excuse for the same old villain if nothing changed, this felt incredibly redundant and the "heroes" aside from Foggy felt like anything but. Pretty disappointing to me especially wrt the great strides it's sister show that just got cancelled, Iron Fist made in season 2 with regard to what it means to be a hero, balance, racist and sexist tropes and poor characterization. 

Edited by slayer2
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I liked this season much more than season two, which I admit I haven't watched since it first came out. Nelson, Murdock and Paige back together again, Kingpin continues to be a psycho villain but a decent husband. I liked Ray and Dex. Okay, like is a strong word choice, but he was an interesting and complex character. I agree the other shows have completely surpassed them in the strong female characters department, especially with Claire's absence. 

"You're not a lawyer but you're a pretty good investigator."

"And a lot more stable than Jessica Jones."

I love Jessica, but the man's not wrong.

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4 hours ago, slayer2 said:

I really didn't like this season at all and just thought Daredevil using Bullseye's last bit of humanity against him like that was despicable. I thought Matt was supposed to be in the business of redemption and saving souls, that's his stupid reason for saving Kingpin when that motherfucker should be dead as a door nail yet when it comes to Dex I guess it's just fine to use his only remaining weakness against him all so Matt can feel superior to Kingpin. 

Yea, I wasn't a fan of making Bullseye 'irredeemable' and fridging one of the few female characters this season to do so*. Pointdexter clearly stuck to his structure and routine without hurting anyone for decades had clearly put in a lot of work. His desperate attempt to get Julie to help him without violating her boundaries again was heartbreaking. It humanized him for me way more than Frank Castle ever was and he's the resident anti-hero. I know nuanced villains are becoming kind of a cliche, but I still would have liked a more nuanced resolution for Bullseye.

We've had 3 seasons of Matt being an ass to his friends and then turning a tidy 180 when he's finally too broken down to go it alone. I know he has abandonment issues, but at some point he has to start taking responsibility for his own shit. I hope next season explores some new themes already. Ofc, Elektra will probably show up again and Matt will revert back to an angsty teenage boy. 

I hope they also build out Vanessa's character a little more, because we still know basically nothing about her. Except for her annoying habit of staring slack-jawed as various people try to murder her. Let her run Fisk's syndicate in his absence or something. Matt is satisfied with his bro-code peace treaty with Fisk not to go after the other's loved ones, but Vanessa is bound by no such agreement. 

I know Foggy is supposed to be the moral center for the show, but man is he annoying AF as a character to me. 

*was there literally any major female character that wasn't a love interest or a mother? Y'all, do better. Have Missy come read Matt the riot act or something.

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38 minutes ago, rozen said:

was there literally any major female character that wasn't a love interest or a mother? Y'all, do better. Have Missy come read Matt the riot act or something.

Dude!! Bless you! That's exactly what I said. No female character received characterization this season save for Karen (whom I can't stand) who was written with a very male perspective. I find it near impossible to believe that someone who went through all she did would be so compassionless towards the snitch that she bullied and blackmailed into snitching only to have him die and aside from briefly whining about her part in it Karen recovers fairly quickly in time to throw someone else under the bus. There are a lot of buses this season and the "heroes" arms must be tired from all the shoving they are doing in front of them.

 

In terms of Julie, she was not given any motivations or goals outside of being Dex's Northstar and she didn't even receive the opportunity to be that willingly for longer than an episode. This season is deeply disturbing from a toxic masculinity lens. It adheres to all the things that are actively being fought in the world right now and deals with them in absolutely the wrong way. Like you mentioned even Vanessa doesn't have her own agency nor is she perceived as anything more than clueless child "caught up" in her  husband's "business". She's not even treated as an adult enough to be seen as responsible for her own sins, she's there to be used as a pawn by the police and then by Daredevil. All the marginalized characters are used as pawns and nothing more. If you aren't a rich or a white male in this season it's a 'fuck you' basically except Karen who has been given a temporary white male privilege pass this season only to have it revoked when she tortures herself over murdering a guy who was emotionally torturing and planning to Murder her. No toxic masculine viewpoints there at all. Nope.

Also wrt Vanessa, after the entire fucking season we still aren't given even an ounce of a clue what she wants or who she is. She's used more like a Virgin to hold above Kingpin's "whorish" life than an actual real, flesh and blood character. All the women this season reveive this Virgin/Whore treatment, save for Karen who is sporadically exempt. 

 

From the lens of mental illness I love what you said about Bullseye, the work he was doing on himself, by himself was incredible and for the villain of the show to exploit that without fanfare from any of the "heroes" and then the "hero" of the show to promptly exploit it as well was disgusting to me. Tbh Dex did a lot more work on himself than Matt ever has, and Matt still has all the problems he had in season 1 and 2.

He has friends that won't accept ALL of him and he still won't accept all of himself. He is always positing himself as either Daredevil or Matt Murdock and never leaves space for both which is what I believe is his greatest conflict but he never makes any strides. Matt just grabs one identity and clasps onto it then walks it back the next season and grabs another. Well for fuck's sakes how about some growth or some effort? By season three he should know enough about himself to unequivocally know where he stands on murder. If I knew as a viewer there was no way in hell he would kill Kingpin then Matt should have fucking known this as well as should Foggy have. Ridiculous and pointless. 

Also aside from her being a woman, which the show takes great strides to highlight (in an incredibly sexist way) is there any real, legitimate reason that Vanessa shouldn't be in prison too? She's complicit in the terrible things her husband does, and the murder of Ray, she belongs there as well but I guess Matt gets to be judge, jury and executioner due to his God complex.

The same way Matt wound up Dex like a toy and sent him spiraling towards Kingpin only to snap him back and chastise him for doing what Matt sent him to do and frankly he had every logical reason to do after Kingpin so callously and cruelly stole his last shot at redemption, while unceremoniously murdering an innocent woman an leaving her in the fridge like an animal. Here's another thing Julie is a Person. Matt just left her in the fucking fridge like she was nothing, no attempt to contact her family or have her buried he just left her and the other two victims there for Dex to find because it suited his agenda and then he went about his business. And the show wants to tell me that's a fucking hero? GTFOOH! 

Edited by slayer2
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46 minutes ago, slayer2 said:

Dude!! Bless you! That's exactly what I said. No female character received characterization this season save for Karen (whom I can't stand) who was written with a very male perspective. I find it near impossible to believe that someone who went through all she did would be so compassionless towards the snitch that she bullied and blackmailed into snitching only to have him die and aside from briefly whining about her part in it Karen recovers fairly quickly in time to throw someone else under the bus. There are a lot of buses this season and the "heroes" arms must be tired from all the shoving they are doing in front of them.

TBF, Karen has a very consistent characterization of getting people killed for her stories and generally not giving a shit about it afterwards. She's one of the leading causes of death for minority characters on this show >_<.

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5 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Well the best part to me is no Elektra. Now that Luke Cage is cancelled I wish they would bring Claire back

I love Elektra to be honest. She's my favourite character, her Typhoid Mary, Colleen Wing and Punisher. But Daredevil has never written Elektra with any respect she has always come in as someone's pawn and scarcely given her own agency or agenda. I think they have a major problem with powerful women on this show. I did miss Claire as well, for a season so lacking in empathy she would have been well received by me. 

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I find it hilarious that Matt Murdock thinks Jessica Jones is less stable than Karen. Yes, Karen drinks less but she crazy. (And I say this as someone who likes her.) 

Edited by Pogojoco
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That was a solid ending to a great season, I think. That's not to say season 3 wasn't rough in places, but after enduring season 2, where the first half was much stronger and more cohesive than the second half, it was good to see a clear path laid out for the season. I know Fisk's second incarceration likely won't last, but I do think it is early for Matt to lose his "no killing" mantra, after taking some time to think about it. I do think he'll have to kill Fisk eventually, but I'm guessing they really want to play around with Fisk for a little longer, should Daredevil get renewed for a fourth season (which I hope it does). 

I hope, should there be a fourth season, that Vanessa is developed better as a character. I can agree that there's so little to her character, but I feel like they have just started unraveling her now that she's an active part of Fisk's dealings. I feel like she could be someone who Matt is underestimating. She seemed fascinated with every part of Fisk's life and I feel like she's going to make trouble while Fisk is behind bars.

I'm glad Ray got to be the hero to this story, even after death. I think he did a lot to redeem himself and his actions.

I am disappointed we didn't get enough Matt/Foggy but I'm hoping a potential fourth season can rectify that. I also hope Matt takes steps into healing not just for himself, but for the people he loves. He's been so broken and such an ass for so long that I'd like to see a different Matt move past his trauma and finally grow.

The fight scenes here were great. It was interesting to see Matt go from fighting Fisk to helping Fisk fight Dex to protect Vanessa. 

As for Matt using Dex to help him take down Fisk, I think it was the only way. Dex's mind was clouded with lies and manipulation. Matt knew that Dex didn't know about Julie, someone he heard from Felix about. Matt saw that as Dex's weakness. Yes, Dex has mental health issues, but he was also a murderer and a psychopath who couldn't be stopped. Of course Dex worked hard for years to get to a good place where he wasn't murdering people, but it wasn't Matt who broke that. Fisk willingly broke all of Dex's ties to humanity to get him to do his bidding. He was already broken by this finale. Matt knew that if he didn't play the Julie card, Dex would have fought to save Fisk and then what? Dex already thought Julie didn't care about him and he couldn't get in touch with her. Yes, Matt used his card and played with Dex's last bit of humanity, but he also provided closure and open eyes. Dex's humanity was already mostly gone at that point. Without a therapist like Dr. Mercer, and without years of hard work and stability, Dex was never going to regain who he was. 

Plus, Matt still had time to stop Dex from killing some of the agents during the fight, so it wasn't like he left Dex to kill whoever he wanted. He just didn't need Dex to get in his way and he needed him more as a distraction. 

I actually thought Matt thought about using Dex to kill Fisk himself so Matt wouldn't have to, but I figured out quickly that it wouldn't be Matt to do that either. 

Overall, a very great third season. Matt is finally back on track with his friends and I hope he does redeem himself, because he also needs some redemption for himself. 

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Agree @Lady Calypso. This was a much more satisfying season than last season.

And I didn’t find Dex suffering from any mental illness so I had no sympathy for him. He was a sociopathic psychopath, who had been killing since childhood and no empathy. And so I was perfectly okay with Matt “using” him.

If there is a fourth season, I fully expect Vanessa to go after Karen and Foggy. The look in her eyes convinced me of that.

One last nitpick, and it being 2018, the writers have no excuse. If they wanted Nadeem to be a Muslim, then he should have had a muslim first name as well and Muslims don’t wear saris. Seema is also a Hindu name, as is Rahul.

But I did smile when D’Onofrio and Sciorria had some scenes together-they were both on Law & Order: Criminal Intent in season five but were in the same episode two parter ”In the Wee Hours.”. I wasn’t sure that was her in the episode where Fisk rounded them all up and told them he was taking over. The voice sounded familiar. And I saw her name in the end credits! She totally deserved a “guest star” credit!!

So it looks like Dex will live to return again?

I’m hoping for villains and no crooked cops, please!

Edited by GHScorpiosRule
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4 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Dex's humanity was already mostly gone at that point. Without a therapist like Dr. Mercer, and without years of hard work and stability, Dex was never going to regain who he was. 

Except that he was doing the hard work and it was working enough that he was not killing anyone the Fisk mission triggered him but we have every indication he was doing the hard work on himself and it was working before that incident (unlike Matt).

Also when Dex needed more help he reached out to Julie who was willing to help him of course he would not have tried to reach out to her or get her involved at all if Fisk hadn't shoved her in his direction. Matt gave no indication that he cared about providing closure for Dex when he told him. If he cared about his mental health at all he would never have left her body there to rot after finding her (nor would a real hero) He stopped seeing Dex and Julie and Kingpin's victims as actual people.

He didn't give a shit he just wanted a path to his true love Fisk and he did whatever it took to get it. Whatever it takes is something that happens to somebody else and on this show the somebody always seems to be minorities and women. Julie was used twice once by Fisk in life then by Matt in death and IMO it was rather disgusting. Also it's important to note that Julie wasn't a card she was a person and the fact that it makes sense to term her that way is exactly what's wrong with this show. 

Edited by slayer2
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I really enjoyed this season, and I’m glad it ended in such a way that I could be okay with this as a series finale, although I admit to being an easy mark there — I just needed the three friends toactually be together and on the same page again (something I definitely did not get out of season 2). Matt, Foggy, and Karen were all good in their individual stories, and all the stories connected well. Matt and Maggie were a particular highlight throughout — I will be rewatching those scenes a few times. I too am glad Nadeem was able to redeem himself with his family, even in death. Meanwhile, both Dex and Vanessa were set up well as villains for a potential future season. (Kinda not funny how Matt keeps essentially creating these mortal enemies through his “heroic” actions.)

Now if someone will be so kind as to reunite Melvin and Betsy, I’d appreciate it.

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12 hours ago, Enigma X said:

Not quite done with the season yet and this is an overall unpopular opinion but D'Onofrio's acting is a bit over the top and kitschy for my liking. 

No this is not an unpopular opinion to me at all. I've never liked it even in the first series. Other than his size I don't really think he was the perfect fit for the role like everyone else does. In fact I fast forwarded through a lot of his scenes because of the very thing that you mentioned. It took me out of the story. Remind me again why he was attracted to Vanessa? I actually found their relationship much stranger than dex's obsession with Julie

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Just now, catrice2 said:

No this is not an unpopular opinion to me at all. I've never liked it even in the first series. Other than his size I don't really think he was the perfect fit for the role like everyone else does. In fact I fast forwarded through a lot of his scenes because of the very thing that you mentioned. It took me out of the story. Remind me again why he was attracted to Vanessa? I actually found their relationship much stranger than dex's obsession with Julie

I also hated him in season 1.

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8 hours ago, catrice2 said:

No this is not an unpopular opinion to me at all. I've never liked it even in the first series. Other than his size I don't really think he was the perfect fit for the role like everyone else does. In fact I fast forwarded through a lot of his scenes because of the very thing that you mentioned. It took me out of the story. Remind me again why he was attracted to Vanessa? I actually found their relationship much stranger than dex's obsession with Julie

I went on a full rant in season one about how he played/was written. And used the ‘90s Spider-Man cartoon’s Kingpin as how he should have been played. Roscoe Brown did an awesome job of making him charismatic, cold, a manipulator and evil without making me ?? I like D’Onofrio, but I don’t care for how he plays Kingpin. And if he was able to have all these people in his pocket, why wasn’t he able to avoid jail the first time around? And I’m left with one question: if it wasn’t the Albanians who killed all those feds when transporting Fisk, who was it that killed them all except for Nadeem? Was it Dex?

Edited by GHScorpiosRule
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9 hours ago, anville said:

Bad news for ya, I think ol' Melvin was in the freezer with Julie.

Good news on that, since when I read this and panicked. It looks like Melvin wasn't in the freezer with Julie. It seems to be the people who killed Julie that were in there. I looked everywhere and it seems like people are sure it wasn't Melvin in the freezer, so we should be in the clear. I doubt they kill Melvin offscreen and have Matt not react. 

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24 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Good news on that, since when I read this and panicked. It looks like Melvin wasn't in the freezer with Julie. It seems to be the people who killed Julie that were in there. I looked everywhere and it seems like people are sure it wasn't Melvin in the freezer, so we should be in the clear. I doubt they kill Melvin offscreen and have Matt not react. 

Oh, that makes sense too.  When I saw a frosty bald cadaver with a moustache, I just assumed it was Melvin.  

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2 hours ago, anville said:

Oh, that makes sense too.  When I saw a frosty bald cadaver with a moustache, I just assumed it was Melvin.  

Yeah, pretty sure it was the "cleaners" that we saw several times and who killed Julie. That was their punishment for failing to kill Nadeem, Felix told Fisk they had been "delt with" for their failure.

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I really liked this season. With the Marvel Netflix shows, I tend to get bored around eps 9 and 10, but I stayed engaged through the entire season. Both Matt and Fisk are so extra. Dex was great, and I loved that whenever they focused on him internally losing it, it sounded like flies or bees buzzing. 

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I had some nitpicks about this season- my chief one being how they "Xanatos Gambit"'d Fisk and made him a supremely omnipotent corruptor to the point that every episode seemed to end on an even bleaker note than the last, up to the finale. That said, I agree with many above that this was far better than S2, and almost as good as S1. It was definitely tighter, which was great. There were very few dead spots. I really enjoyed Sister Maggie and her relationship with Matt; would have liked to see the main trio get back together again sooner, but was happy where it ended. I also could have done without the Bullseye teaser at the end; it seemed a very fan-servicey and out of place bookend to the story.

Given the recent spate of Netflix Marvel cancellations, I won't be surprised if this week ends with another one; if so, it would be a good ending. I do hope that all of these shows are just being moved over to the new Marvel network, however; I really do enjoy this cast and these characters.

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On ‎10‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 8:56 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

And I’m left with one question: if it wasn’t the Albanians who killed all those feds when transporting Fisk, who was it that killed them all except for Nadeem? Was it Dex?

No, the Albanians admitted to putting the hit out once Fisk left the prison. That was totally them. They said that they didn't set up the hit inside the prison, that's all.

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Really good finale and a GREAT season.  I actually liked Season 2 but Season 3 was far superior.  Daredevil has always been the best of the Marvel Netflix shows and this season reaffirmed that.

While the Daredevil/Fisk/Bullseye fight was very good, I have to admit I was a little disappointed .  Don't get me wrong, it was well-done.  But there should have been a more decisive fight between Matt and Dex (Matt didn't even defeat in last season).  While Ben was not part of the original Born Again storyline, he was the one who killed Elektra in the comics and his being paralyzed was the direct result of Matt.  Her death angered Matt so much that he did try to kill Bullseye but only succeeded in paralyzing him below the neck.  I just thought their fight should have been more decisive and felt there was something missing from Matt vs. Fisk.

The Matt and Maggie scenes were great this season although I found their last scene a little lacking.  Dancing around the whole mother reveal.

That being said, the action was fantastic and I loved the ending with Matt, Foggy and Karen.  The chemistry between them was great and I'm glad they are finally turning the Page.  Also appreciated the brief mention of Jessica Jones there.

Quote

*was there literally any major female character that wasn't a love interest or a mother? Y'all, do better. Have Missy come read Matt the riot act or something.

She is Matt's love interest and the two still have chemistry together but there wasn't a romance between them this year.  I thought Karen's storyline was one of the highlights of the season and she's one of the best characters in the Marvel Netflix show.  I will agree though if she is coming after you for a story, you'd better hide or you'll end up dead. 

I also enjoyed Foggy's storyline and while I'm glad he and Matt have patched things up, I admit I'm really disappointed that Foggy dropped out of the DA's race.  That would have been a fascinating storyline and a cool break from the comics.

I liked Vanessa breaking bad and hopefully she'll be utilized more in Season 4.

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3 hours ago, benteen said:

She is Matt's love interest and the two still have chemistry together but there wasn't a romance between them this year.  I thought Karen's storyline was one of the highlights of the season and she's one of the best characters in the Marvel Netflix show.  I will agree though if she is coming after you for a story, you'd better hide or you'll end up dead.

I will admit to not really liking Karen at all until S1 of The Punisher -- the Savior/Damsel complex surrounding her and Matt always rubbed me the wrong way. But this season really put a lot of that to rest; Karen is in on the "secret" (and Matt and Foggy are in on hers), she's strong and independent in her own right, and as much as she may have enjoyed Matt thinking of her as "innocent", him getting past that is so much better for their friendship. I actually like the idea of their relationship, now that they seem to be on more equal footing.

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I'm glad Nadeem got to have a victory, even though he died for it.  It's nice to see Matt and Foggy as law partners again, and Karen is a better fit with them than in journalism.  I liked her a lot this season.  I felt like they pushed a lot of wrap-up scenes into the last episode, which did make me worry about the fate of the series.

I am on the fence a bit about the final confrontation at the hotel.  Matt sending Dex in there like a guided missile was reckless and morally compromising.  There was no knowing who he would kill along the way.  The fight and bartering between Matt and Fisk was not as satisfying I hoped, but it was okay.  The fight between Matt, Dex, and Fisk was unexpected and interesting.

I liked Maggie; she was my favorite new character this season.  Dex was interesting, and a good villain.  I agree with others that Vanessa is a good potential villain for next season. She is cool and calculating.

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I know why it can't happen for real-life logistical reasons, but in the wake of Defenders, there's really *no* storyline reason why none of Luke, Jessica, Iron Fist or Punisher showed up to check out this situation.  Especially after it seemed like "Daredevil" was running around killing newspaper reporters.

Overall, I enjoyed this season quite a bit.  There were definitely some plot holes and strange plotting in general along the way, but this is the only Marvel Netflix show where the acting is so good across the board that is really helps to paper over the story problems.  Karen in particular has had so much ridiculous stuff attached to her character, yet it somehow works since Deborah Ann Woll is a hell of an actress.

The ending felt a bit too pat given how much of a complete hold Fisk seemed to have over everyone.  Matt just expects Fisk to keep his word?  If anything, you would've thought Matt threatening Vanessa in any way would've made Fisk even more determined to kill him.

This might just be something they handwave away since it's a superhero show, but was there ever any explanation given about why Dex has superhuman throwing and aiming abilities?

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On 10/22/2018 at 7:56 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

 I like D’Onofrio, but I don’t care for how he plays Kingpin. And if he was able to have all these people in his pocket, why wasn’t he able to avoid jail the first time around?

IIRC, it was the flipside of this season. He had a whole bunch of NYPD and local folks in his pocket in S1, but he didn't have any/enough feds. So Our Heroes got the feds to go after Kingpin. In the process of arresting and transporting Kingpin, a bunch of NYPD got killed, which apparently got the bulk of NYPD to be anti-Kingpin in the current season. S3, he sets about manipulating the feds so there are now enough in his pocket.

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On 21.10.2018 at 5:16 AM, rozen said:

I hope they also build out Vanessa's character a little more, because we still know basically nothing about her. Except for her annoying habit of staring slack-jawed as various people try to murder her. Let her run Fisk's syndicate in his absence or something. Matt is satisfied with his bro-code peace treaty with Fisk not to go after the other's loved ones, but Vanessa is bound by no such agreement. 

She's bound to the same agreement Matt has with Fisk. Matt has leverage on her, so it's her ass on the line. 

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On 24/10/2018 at 6:11 PM, kickingnames said:

I will admit to not really liking Karen at all until S1 of The Punisher -- the Savior/Damsel complex surrounding her and Matt always rubbed me the wrong way. But this season really put a lot of that to rest; Karen is in on the "secret" (and Matt and Foggy are in on hers), she's strong and independent in her own right, and as much as she may have enjoyed Matt thinking of her as "innocent", him getting past that is so much better for their friendship. I actually like the idea of their relationship, now that they seem to be on more equal footing.

Matt and Karen went from having zero romantic chemistry last season to all the chemistry this season despite barely having any scenes together for the majority of the season. I'd cringe whenever they'd have their awkward romantic moments in season two, but the recent writing's been so great for them that I'd be ok with them getting together at some point (and ok with nothing happening as well). Now that we know of her past, I can see why it'd appeal to Karen to let Matt think of her as innocent, but that'd be a relationship built on a lie and it really presented an awful power imbalance because Karen was constantly in the dark about Matt's proclivities since he preferred to think of her as someone to be protected and came across as really patronizing. That's why I loved that the show flipped the savior/damsel dynamic on its head with Matt often failing to protect his friends this season, and the church scene ending with Karen saving Matt's life by attacking Bullseye. Not to mention the scene where she told him what it was like to kill someone when it's typically the other way around with vigilante shows. I feel like that's a large part of the Karen/Frank appeal to so many people, whether platonic or romantic. Neither judges the other and there's a level of honesty and respect there that wasn't present between Karen and Matt till now. 

Really goes to show how much the writing got in the way of their chemistry and that there was potential their all along. 

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What a fabulous season, making up for the complete letdowns that were Jessica Jones Season Two and Luke Cage Season Two. Whilst it wasn't without its flaws, this was a really great season. 

My favourite thing about this season was easily the fight scenes. Especially the three-way match between Kingpin, Bullseye and Daredevil.

I'm very impressed.

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On 10/21/2018 at 9:01 PM, slayer2 said:

Except that he was doing the hard work and it was working enough that he was not killing anyone the Fisk mission triggered him but we have every indication he was doing the hard work on himself and it was working before that incident (unlike Matt).

Also when Dex needed more help he reached out to Julie who was willing to help him of course he would not have tried to reach out to her or get her involved at all if Fisk hadn't shoved her in his direction. Matt gave no indication that he cared about providing closure for Dex when he told him. If he cared about his mental health at all he would never have left her body there to rot after finding her (nor would a real hero) He stopped seeing Dex and Julie and Kingpin's victims as actual people.

He didn't give a shit he just wanted a path to his true love Fisk and he did whatever it took to get it. Whatever it takes is something that happens to somebody else and on this show the somebody always seems to be minorities and women. Julie was used twice once by Fisk in life then by Matt in death and IMO it was rather disgusting. Also it's important to note that Julie wasn't a card she was a person and the fact that it makes sense to term her that way is exactly what's wrong with this show. 

Why would Matt care about Dex's mental health?  Dex had just hurt and killed numerous completely innocent people, including Matt's priest and surrogate father, and he's supposed to pause because this monster somehow managed not to be too homicidal so as to get caught, and Matt is supposed to magically know that he's working hard to to keep it together--maybe?  I seriously don't understand why everyone wants to demand absolute perfection from everything Matt does, while giving passes to the most selfish and heartless monsters.  This happens even within the series, calling Matt an asshole because he doesn't acquiesce to every demand of his friends, even though he's just trying to keep them out of danger.  Even to the point of preventing him from killing a monster who kills anyone nearby that has the unlucky job of giving him bad news, a monster who has some seemingly omnipotent ability to know and control everyone around him to the point of escaping any imprisonment he might be temporarily subjected to.  The dude should have died to make the entire world safer, if not by Matt's hand then by Dex's.

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I was really hoping Dex would end Fisk but I guess the powers that be wanted to save Fisk and/or Dex for future programs. Killing Fisk would have changed Matt no doubt. I don't understand why Matt has this fixation on not killing someone who is clearly evil and has no remorse for the many killed and yet to be killed. I always wonder about all those maimed he leaves behind. If your considered brain dead are you redeemable? 

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Well, that's one way to do it!  Max basically turns Dex against Fisk by showing him proof of what he had did to Julie.  Definitely a dark moment for Matt, but effective none the less.  Plus, it led to that final battle between all three characters, which was epic.  Not surprised that Matt didn't finish Fisk for good, since I don't see them having him breaking his "no killing" rule yet.  Of course, I suspect that means Fisk will eventually find a way to try again, but I can see him backing down for now, as long as Vanessa is safe and free.  As for Dex.... well, it's clear what's going to happen to him!

Glad Ray got a victory from the grave with that video.  Even in death, he was able to redeem himself.  Matt should be happy about that, at least.

Nice that they gave Father Lanthom a funeral/send-off.  Looks like Maggie is going to assume the advisor role now, only with the whole "being Matt's actual mother" thing getting added in.

The final moment with Matt, Karen, and Foggy does seem to be setting things up for a potential series finale, if Netflix continues to drop bodies... err, shows.

Overall, a sizable improvement from last season, even though I didn't hate that one, but just though the first half (Punisher arc) was vastly superior to the second half (The Hand/Elektra.)  But I thought they brought it back to S1 level with Matt's ongoing feud with Fisk, and handling things like corruption, gangsters, and more street crime compared to magical ninjas.  Hope it comes back, but I have no idea what Netflix is up to at this point.

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As far as my feelings toward this season are concerned, I think it's my favorite so far, But season 1 comes in at a close second.  The story this season was pretty tight, though the conclusion was a big let down.  I found both Fisk and Karen incredibly annoying season 1.  Fisk was much less annoying this season, and Karen grew on me tremendously.  The actress that played her did a great job this season.  If there was one thing I didn't like this season, it was that Matt wasn't allowed to win fights.  He was supposedly better able to take on a dozen FBI agents with guns, that one person in hand-to-hand combat.  It just gets too ridiculous after a while.

I actually really liked Elektra in season 2.  She had great sexual chemistry with Matt, which was sorely lacking between Karen and Matt except maybe in the crypt.  I used to like Foggy more, but he was incredibly annoying this season.   It also annoys me whenever shows put pudgy doughboys together with super hot women.  I mean, it could be believable if there were a money/power imbalance between them, but his girlfriend has just as much money if not more.

As far as sister Maggie is concerned, I appreciate the realness the actress went for, but someone who devotes their life to a religious order is not going to have such a potty mouth.  They just aren't.  I think there's some laziness there in the script writing.

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I loved this season and this episode. I like that they managed to get Fisk without killing him. Though I was confused why Matt was fighting Dex. It would have been perfect if he killed Fisk, than Matt didn't need too. He told him about Julie in order to get him to turn on Fisk and create a distraction. Which was well done. But then he suddenly was trying to stop him? Anyhow, I was shocked that Vanessa made it out alive, I really thought Dex was going to kill her. Also I have to say all season I was waiting for someone to get through thew the glass staircase. And it finally did happen.

Anyhow, the ending of the episode was great. The funeral scene was well done and I liked the scene with the three at the end being friends again. And starting their firm again.

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On 10/22/2018 at 8:56 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I went on a full rant in season one about how he played/was written. And used the ‘90s Spider-Man cartoon’s Kingpin as how he should have been played. Roscoe Brown did an awesome job of making him charismatic, cold, a manipulator and evil without making me ?? I like D’Onofrio, but I don’t care for how he plays Kingpin. And if he was able to have all these people in his pocket, why wasn’t he able to avoid jail the first time around? And I’m left with one question: if it wasn’t the Albanians who killed all those feds when transporting Fisk, who was it that killed them all except for Nadeem? Was it Dex?

It was the Albanians who killed the Feds. Then Dex killed them without waiting giving them a change to "surrender". Which saved Nadeem and Fisk.

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I agree with the person up thread about the problem that they have with having all these Heroes based in New York. New York is really not that big so that if one of them were in danger the other one wouldn't at least call to see if they wanted some help. That is kind of problematic when they previously shows them getting together to solve the problem. It's almost as if they would have been better off not doing the Defenders.

Jessica Jones was such a waste of my time and don't get me started on Luke Cage

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15 hours ago, catrice2 said:

I agree with the person up thread about the problem that they have with having all these Heroes based in New York. New York is really not that big so that if one of them were in danger the other one wouldn't at least call to see if they wanted some help. That is kind of problematic when they previously shows them getting together to solve the problem. It's almost as if they would have been better off not doing the Defenders.

Jessica Jones was such a waste of my time and don't get me started on Luke Cage

I haven't worked out the exact timing on the other shows but from what I remember:

Jessica Jones, in addition to always being drunk, would have either been dealing with or mourning her mother so she'd hardly care about Matt Murdock.
Luke Cage would have either been dealing with Bushmaster or running his own empire in Harlem. Harlem keeps him busy enough as is.
Iron Fist was either de-powered or off in Asia so he wasn't available or around.
The Punisher just got his life back after being hunted by the Feds and he knows DD doesn't kill so even if he wanted to help he wouldn't know how.

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5 hours ago, yourdreamer said:

Shouldn’t Dex be in prison? Why would he be getting experimental back surgery in prison?

Same reason Luke Cage got experimental procedures done in prison. Guinea pigs who won't have much recourse if the procedure goes wrong.

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The last scene with Nelson, Murdock and Page just makes me deliriously happy. I'm so glad that they are back together. The show is not the same when they are separated. If we get a S4, I want them to work together and accept Matt's double life. I don't want some major conflict to tear them apart again. Let them face the bad guys together as a team. 

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That was a great season. I wish all of the Marvel shows could be like this. Hope it comes back for season 4, and if the Chautari invasion is "The Incident" I wonder how they are going to dance around Thanos.

On 21/10/2018 at 9:01 PM, slayer2 said:

Except that he was doing the hard work and it was working enough that he was not killing anyone the Fisk mission triggered him but we have every indication he was doing the hard work on himself and it was working before that incident (unlike Matt).

Dex was on an FBI tactical team before the season started, so I kind of doubt he wasn't killing anyone until Fisk came along. 

On 25/10/2018 at 4:16 AM, OutOfTheQuestion said:

I know why it can't happen for real-life logistical reasons, but in the wake of Defenders, there's really *no* storyline reason why none of Luke, Jessica, Iron Fist or Punisher showed up to check out this situation.  Especially after it seemed like "Daredevil" was running around killing newspaper reporters.

You could say the same thing about Spider-Man (who goes to high school in midtown) or any number of MCU heroes. It is just one of those things you have to write off as "comics".

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This was an excellent end to the season. And just further cements Daredevil as the best TV show Marvel have got.

Good for Ray, that he left that video. At the end of the last episode, I was disappointed that he'd just seemed to give up and take the fall, to keep his family safe. It was a nice summation of the way Fisk completely ruins lives, and never feels a moment of regret.

Fisk really is a very sad human being, when it all comes down to it. His life is just as much artifice as Matt's, or Dex's. Everything in his penthouse (in the first season and this one) is there to present an image of wealth and sophistication. His wedding was designed to be the sort of classy, refined, rich people wedding he probably thinks he should have. But in truth, he doesn't really care about any of it. He doesn't even care about his lifelong ambition to rebuild New York any more. He cares about Vanessa, and that's about it. And Matt realised it. That was the only way to take Fisk down, without killing him.

I like that Karen didn't take the usual 'love interest' stance of trying to talk the hero out of doing something dark.  She was letting him do what he thought he had to. If she had the choice, I'm fairly sure she'd kill Fisk herself, but she still worried that it would be a bad thing for Matt to do.

But at least Matt had a proper plan - Get into Dex's head, and turn him against Fisk with the truth. I did find it a bit of a stretch to think Fisk hadn't disposed of Julie's body, though. Seems like an unusual oversight for the man who planned for every other possible eventuality.

And how fucking nuts is Dex, to prop Julie's corpse up in the passenger seat, then talk to it? As for him not killing anyone until Fisk pushed him? The first time we saw him, he shot two unarmed men in the head. He was always rotten, he was just hiding it better.

Seems like it would have been smarter for Matt to let Dex kill Fisk, then take him down. But that shot of Matt, waiting for Fisk in the hotel corridor, was fantastic. Black and white, reversed. The three way fight scene was pretty well executed. Fisk as the big, overpowering monster, Matt with his speed and Dex with his ability to hit from a distance.

I'm a little surprised that Sister Maggie made it out of the season alive, but it's nice that Matt has another shoulder to lean on, and one even less likely to tolerate his bullshit than Foggy or Karen. And I'm really glad that Matt, Foggy and Karen are all firmly in cahoots again.

To be honest, this felt like a finale that tied up most loose ends for the show. I don't really see where else they can go, in a fourth season. Vanessa taking over Fisk's businesses, maybe? Bullseye is obviously primed to return, but he's not a season-long, master plan style villain. He's too unstable to be more than the villain's right hand man. Typhoid Mary? Maybe. It'd be cool if she and Vanessa teamed up, as an all female threat.

Edited by Danny Franks
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On 10/22/2018 at 8:38 AM, Lady Calypso said:

Good news on that, since when I read this and panicked. It looks like Melvin wasn't in the freezer with Julie. It seems to be the people who killed Julie that were in there. I looked everywhere and it seems like people are sure it wasn't Melvin in the freezer, so we should be in the clear. I doubt they kill Melvin offscreen and have Matt not react. 

Yes!  Thank goodness!  I thought it was Melvin too and was really sad.  I know Matt basically washed his hands of him when he made the copycat suit (and, seriously Matt, come on. Is he supposed to just take the "moral high road" and let himself and Betsy be killed over it?) but for him to seemingly not care that Melvin had died after Matt fought with him was harsh.  But I went back and checked the video of the hallway scene and the guy who shot Julie was bald with a moustache, too.  *whew*

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