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Crisis On Infinite Earths 2019: Who Lives, Who Dies, Who Tells Their Story

scarynikki12

By scarynikki12
in Legends Of Tomorrow

MarkHB
Message added by MarkHB

This thread is specifically for discussion of Elseworlds, Crisis on Infinite Earths, and speculation and spoilers directly pertaining to them.  Full rules for the thread are here; please read them.  Off-topic posts may be removed.

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

SA said in multiple interviews that he plays two characters in the crossover, but he also made this comment...

-- About the COIE crossover, SA: "The only thing that I can tease is that there are no rules. And I'm playing two characters... I saw that character's costume today. It was great... No, I didn't try it on. I saw concept art for something that I'm going to be doing in the crossover." ET's Leanne Aguilera: "Is it a character that we know?" SA: "Nope. Never appeared on screen before." (TCA Summer 2019 Press Tour, Aug 4, 2019: Aug. 6, 2019 Entertainment Tonight video of SA interview, page 26 of Crisis On Infinite Earths 2019 thread in LoT forum)

So it's a bit confusing, because the Star 2046 Old Oliver character has appeared on screen before. And why would they need concept art for a new costume? 

Therefore, either SA considers Earth-16's Old Oliver a new character that's never appeared on screen before, or he considers Green Arrow (both E1 and E16) one character and there's still another character that we haven't seen yet.

Edited by tv echo
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BkWurm1
BkWurm1

Aww crap. I was hoping he'd be bored and have moved away from the crossover by next year.  I really don't like the narrow focus on just the leads.  I was willing to put up with it this year but now I'

Starfish35
Starfish35

I’m dying. 🤣 From Tumblr:

Mellowyellow
Mellowyellow

Ahh good old Stephen and his NOPE face reserved for everyone who isn't EBR. At least he doesn't look like he wants to break Iris's arm there! We had a temp LI in S5 and there was a scene where sh

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

11 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

It may be similar to the opening montage from hour 1. I definitely don’t expect it to take up a significant amount of time. 

I don't care so much about the length of time - they should fully explain what's going on here because for as much as the Arrow storyline has focused on Oliver & Co. doing the Monitor's bidding, the actual Monitor has only shown up, what...three times for a minute or so each? And he's been cryptic in those few short scenes. Finally getting into the backstory between Monitor and Anti-Monitor three episodes from now seems like a long time to wait for a really big part of the story, but maybe they'll get into more detail before then.

tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

From Smallville panel at Wales Comic Con on Dec. 7...

Smallville Panel Tom Welling, Michael Rosenbaum, Erica Durance, Laura Vandervoort - Wales Comic Con
Geektown   Dec. 9, 2019

-- When asked if he ever expected to play Clark Kent again, Tom Welling: "No... If you guys don't know this, it's tonight or tomorrow night, I forget, but the Crisis thing is going... So Erica and I are both on it together. And when they called me, I - I ... the answer is, no, I never even considered it. But when they called me and they asked me - it's not like they call you and ask you. But they called and said, 'We have this idea, what do you think?' And the short version is, when I heard it, the first thing I said was, 'Sh-t!' And the producer who's talking to me goes, 'You alright?' And I said, 'Yeah, give me a second.' He's like, 'You still there?' 'Yeah, just give me a f-ckin' second!' And he goes, 'Is everything alright?' 'Yeah, I'm trying to figure out a reason not to do this.' And he goes, 'Why?' 'Because it's a really good idea! And I think anybody who likes Smallville and anybody who likes Clark, they're gonna like this idea.' And he goes, 'Okay, so you'll do it.' I go, 'No, give me another second. I'm trying to figure out a reason not to do it.' And I couldn't come up with one, so we ended up doing it. And it was great being there with Erica, and we were at the Kent Farm, as you'll see. And it's a really cool - I really like what we did. I like the way it turned out. And I think, if you like any of the shows, especially Smallville, you're gonna - it really pays tribute to you guys as fans, what we do. So I hope you like it."

Edited by tv echo
apinknightmare

apinknightmare

10 minutes ago, tv echo said:

-- About the COIE crossover, SA: "The only thing that I can tease is that there are no rules. And I'm playing two characters... I saw that character's costume today. It was great... No, I didn't try it on. I saw concept art for something that I'm going to be doing in the crossover." ET's Leanne Aguilera: "Is it a character that we know?" SA: "Nope. Never appeared on screen before." (TCA Summer 2019 Press Tour, Aug 4, 2019: Aug. 6, 2019 Entertainment Tonight video of SA interview, page 26 of Crisis On Infinite Earths 2019 thread in LoT forum, and page 3 of Spoilers thread and page 11 of Spoiler Discussion Final thread in Arrow forum)

According to the guy who posted the first episode spoilers over on Reddit, Oliver becomes Spectre. If that's right (and he was right about everything that happened last night) that's probably what Stephen was talking about.

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

Spoilerish for tonight's second crossover episode...

'Crisis on Infinite Earths' bosses break down THAT hour 1 shocker
By Chancellor Agard December 08, 2019
https://ew.com/tv/2019/12/08/crisis-on-infinite-earths-oliver-dies-supergirl/ 

Quote

“The dilemma that we presented to our own selves was that we spoiled our own story,” crossover executive producer Marc Guggenheim told reporters at a recent screening of the parts one and two of the crossover. “So if Oliver dying isn’t the surprise, what is the surprise? And the timing of him dying, because I think we kinda figured the audience is expecting that Oliver would die in the climax in the fifth hour. So if we went in the opposite direction and killed him off at the end of Hour, we accomplish two things: Hopefully we do surprise the audience. That’s absolutely the intention. But we also really establish the stakes that going into the next four hours, ‘Wow, if Oliver Queen can die, then no one is safe.'”
*  *  *
“The leads all have a different take on how to grieve or handle Oliver’s death,” said Batwoman showrunner Caroline Dries. “Some of them believe it’s over. Some of them believe we can fix this. Some of them are not wanting to even think about it. Everyone has a different approach to it and that helps generate the story for the episode.”

DC’s Legend of Tomorrow showrunner Keto Shimizu added: “It sets up really interesting stories and conflicts between all these characters, all these leads of these different shows who have different ways of reacting to this tragedy, and you get to see them grieve together in a really compelling way.”

Edited by tv echo
way2interested

way2interested

(edited)
33 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

According to the guy who posted the first episode spoilers over on Reddit, Oliver becomes Spectre. If that's right (and he was right about everything that happened last night) that's probably what Stephen was talking about.

Nice, guess that happens in the Flash/Arrow episode. Plus that makes the ending of 722 make sense (yeah, the future is changing anyway, but in that context it would explain why Felicity is going to go to Oliver.)

Edited by way2interested
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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

Also remember this tweet?...

FWIW, Oct. 14, 2019, is two days after papps were tweeting crossover filming spoilers about David Ramsey, Katherine McNamara and Matt Ryan sharing a scene with Lucifer's Tom Ellis, although Ellis subsequently denied being involved in the Crisis crossover.

Edited by tv echo
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Chris24601

Chris24601

(edited)
1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

According to the guy who posted the first episode spoilers over on Reddit, Oliver becomes Spectre. If that's right (and he was right about everything that happened last night) that's probably what Stephen was talking about.

Pretty much this. The rule in the comics was that The Spectre has to bond with a mortal of extremely strong will who has recently died with great willpower and a desire for justice.

The Spectre is a literal aspect of the Capitol G God (his Vengeance specifically) and in the comic version of the Crisis we responsible for fighting the Anti-Monitor to a stand-still and then recreating the universe in a form that could survive the antimatter wave.

This resulted in all the surviving characters from all the Earths being merged into the same history on the same Earth and only those actually present with the Spectre when he rebooted the universe still remember that there even were multiple Earths. In Arrowverse terms, after the reboot into a singular universe, all of Superman and Kara's adventures would have always happened on the same Earth as Arrow, the Flash and all the rest happened on.

Two things I think is actually subtly brilliant about making Ollie the Spectre (as in the sort of brilliance you saw in s1-2 where they creatively spun various mythos elements to make them seem more plausible) are...

A) It gives an actual in-universe reason for God's Spirit of Vengeance to be wearing his comic-iconic green hood... in the show the spirit might have never appeared in that form UNTIL Oliver becomes the Spectre and he chooses to wear the green hood because of what The Hood/Arrow/Green Arrow represented in terms of vengeance against evildoers.

"ANTI-MONITOR! You have failed this Multiverse!"

B) If Oliver does recreate the universe as part of defeating the Anti-Monitor's plans, then the new universe would, quite literally be The Arrowverse... which is just so meta it goes around twice through ridiculous and back to awesome.

Finally, it makes Oliver an immortal being watching over the Universe and ensuring that the wicked receive justice and so can't actually play a role in day-to-day matters on Earth (as an aspect of God he's probably also technically the Monitor's boss), but still exists in a form that Felicity can go to with the Monitor as she did at the end of season seven.

There's your fitting end to the Arrowverse's first hero.

Ollie becoming the Spectre the way Hal Jordan did in the comics also plays REALLY well with the spoiler bits of Mia and Ollie back on Lian Yu. In that story arc some of the heroes went to the gates of heaven to find a soul to replace Jim Corrigan's as the Spectre, but ultimately had to go to Purgatory (because they needed a soul who hadn't yet found the true peace needed to enter Heaven) and find Hal Jordan to take up the mantle.

Thus, my hunch for the Arrow episode of the crossover will be Mia, probably with the help of Constantine (who might call up his old "buddy" Lucifer; as played by Tom Ellis; to assist) journeying to literal Purgatory (which for Ollie would be represented by Lian Yu) to get him to take up the mantle of the Spectre to save the universe.

THAT would actually be a fitting Arrow episode for the crossover actually... Oliver did indeed die, but then he has to become someone else... SOMETHING else.

ETA: Between all the other passing the torch bits to Mia, I don't think the payoff works unless she's one of the ones present for Ollie's universe reboot so she can remember her father (and also have the suit he gave her and remember that he specifically asked her to take up the name Green Arrow).

Edited by Chris24601
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Velocity23

Velocity23

1 hour ago, way2interested said:

Nice, guess that happens in the Flash/Arrow episode. Plus that makes the ending of 722 make sense (yeah, the future is changing anyway, but in that context it would explain why Felicity is going to go to Oliver.)

That only works under presumption that things stay the same. I honestly think that Felicity and Monitor make some kind of agreement and it is going to change the outcome for Olivers fate. 

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way2interested

way2interested

1 minute ago, Velocity23 said:

That only works under presumption that things stay the same. I honestly think that Felicity and Monitor make some kind of agreement and it is going to change the outcome for Olivers fate. 

I don't think things stay the same. I just think that that might have been what Beth and co were going for with that ending back in 722, probably already knowing that Oliver didn't "die" and becomes Spectre instead, so that Felicity was going to be with him and not going to "heaven" or the "paradise dimension" as some thought previously.

I'm thinking @Chris24601's theory is pretty much it (Diggle and Mia go look for Oliver in Hell/Heaven with Constantine and Lucifer, get informed that he's in Purgatory, they convince him to come back as Spectre, Oliver gets the big win and is neither fully alive nor killed off just as SA and MG were hinting, etc.), give or take some explanations to hand wave the memory and universe combining stuff depending on how they are going forward with each of the shows.

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Velocity23

Velocity23

Just now, way2interested said:

I don't think things stay the same. I just think that that might have been what Beth and co were going for with that ending back in 722, probably already knowing that Oliver didn't "die" and becomes Spectre instead, so that Felicity was going to be with him and not going to "heaven" or the "paradise dimension" as some thought previously.

I'm thinking @Chris24601's theory is pretty much it (Diggle and Mia go look for Oliver in Hell/Heaven with Constantine and Lucifer, get informed that he's in Purgatory, they convince him to come back as Spectre, Oliver gets the big win and is neither fully alive nor killed off just as SA and MG were hinting, etc.), give or take some explanations to hand wave the memory and universe combining stuff depending on how they are going forward with each of the shows.

I dont know because i have this sneaky suspicion that 2046 Oliver will somehow played into it also. That wasnt just a cameo, we will see him going forward in the crossover. 

I am a little bit confused with Diggle from the stills. Because he seems to be in two spots at once. Unless one is not our Diggle with Oliver in Purgatory. 

way2interested

way2interested

18 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

I dont know because i have this sneaky suspicion that 2046 Oliver will somehow played into it also. That wasnt just a cameo, we will see him going forward in the crossover. 

Maybe? Maybe he joins along with the group and then becomes the Oliver who dies, meanwhile the real Oliver (who idk turned down coming back after at first) comes back as Sepctre to save the day. Imo it was a cameo though to set up the "destiny" line later, but idk

Quote

I am a little bit confused with Diggle from the stills. Because he seems to be in two spots at once. Unless one is not our Diggle with Oliver in Purgatory. 

I think that's definitely our Diggle with Oliver in Purgatory since it's the same outfit as that pic DR posted with him, KM, SA, and MR. I'm just guessing the stuff with Diggle on the Waverider is in the very beginning of the episode while Mia, Constantine, and Diggle going to find Oliver is later.

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Velocity23

Velocity23

1 minute ago, way2interested said:

I think that's definitely our Diggle with Oliver in Purgatory since it's the same outfit as that pic DR posted with him, KM, SA, and MR. I'm just guessing the stuff with Diggle on the Waverider is in the very beginning of the episode while Mia, Constantine, and Diggle going to find Oliver is later.

Well we know e90 Barry Allen is showing up in the Flash episode wouldnt be surprised if we get e90 Diggle also.

way2interested

way2interested

2 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Well we know e90 Barry Allen is showing up in the Flash episode wouldnt be surprised if we get e90 Diggle also.

Yeah, I definitely think we'll get e90 Diggle as Green Lantern, but I would think he would be a cameo in LoT or Arrow instead (the reason why they haven't released the DR as Green Lantern poster yet). Or, if he is in Flash, that he's the one on the Waverider because our Diggle is definitely the one with Oliver, I would think.

Velocity23

Velocity23

1 minute ago, way2interested said:

Yeah, I definitely think we'll get e90 Diggle as Green Lantern, but I would think he would be a cameo in LoT or Arrow instead (the reason why they haven't released the DR as Green Lantern poster yet). Or, if he is in Flash, that he's the one on the Waverider because our Diggle is definitely the one with Oliver, I would think.

I dont know but according to one of the paps in Vancouver David Ramsey might have done a photoshoot as the GreenLantern over the summer. 

wingster55

wingster55

‪Why did Oliver mention he sacrificed himself for Barry and Kara? Is that even necessary to say in his “last moments”? And for what? To make the other two feel guilty? Plus it’s not even true. ‬

Never mind the fact that him having an arrow that can somehow stop the Monitor (all the eye rolling), I don’t get why said Monitor didn’t just transport him away instead of trying to reason with him. The amount of stretching they do to make Oliver the bestest hero ever (at the expense of all those with powers) is ridiculous. 

apinknightmare

apinknightmare

40 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I'm thinking @Chris24601's theory is pretty much it (Diggle and Mia go look for Oliver in Hell/Heaven with Constantine and Lucifer, get informed that he's in Purgatory, they convince him to come back as Spectre, Oliver gets the big win and is neither fully alive nor killed off just as SA and MG were hinting, etc.), give or take some explanations to hand wave the memory and universe combining stuff depending on how they are going forward with each of the shows.

I think there has to be some kind of twist to this scenario since there were BTS pics posted of Stephen as E-1 Oliver on a gurney with an IV in his arm. 

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tennisgurl

tennisgurl

I mean, even beyond the spoilers of SA as what looks like Earth 1 Oliver still around, even if its in the afterlife, from a narrative perspective, killing off Earth 1 Oliver this early is just a stupid choice. I mean, reading the interviews where Oliver is so totally dead you guys we promise, the reasons for doing it now are just some of the worst reasons you can kill a character off. Maybe this is just me being bitter about certain pain in the ass trends in TV and movies lately, but killing off a major character because "it will shock the audience!" or "if this person dies, then no one is safe!" are just awful reasons to kill a character in this way. Its horribly disrespectful to both the character and the audience who dared to give a crap. 

So them deciding to stick a ton of people from Kara's Earth on Earth 1 definitely makes me think that we are heading towards an ending similar to the comics, where all of the worlds are mushed together to put everything on one Earth, and from everyone's memories, this will always be how its been. A ton of people will be killed/disappeared to make it work, but now every show will take place in the same planet and timeline...until of course the multiverse gets brought back in yet another crisis crossover event for later like in the comics!

So where the hell is Psycho Pirate?!

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

(edited)
19 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Hopefully Mia isn't going full Laurel on Oliver's death.

Well, he hasn't been buried yet so at least there won't be any grave digging? If Constantine is with her maybe she won't have to chain him up in a basement? 🤞

Edited by apinknightmare
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Primal Slayer

Primal Slayer

(edited)
9 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

My apologies if this has been answered, but is this going to be released as a long form movie? I was going to buy the episodes individually but thought I'd wait if TPTB were going to put them all together. 

No. They arent allowed to put them together as a movie. The UK releases them as their own dvd but they dont bother to do so in the US.

Black Lightning just destroyed it's own universe and zapped BL to the main event.

Edited by Primal Slayer
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quarks

quarks

Technically Supergirl is still under a different Berlanti/WB subsidiary than Flash, Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow, plus there's almost certainly some additional contract issues, plus the entire point of these crossovers is to encourage fans of one show to buy episodes/seasons of the other shows, but I still wish something could be worked out to let people just buy the crossover episodes in one package. 

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statsgirl

statsgirl

28 minutes ago, quarks said:

but I still wish something could be worked out to let people just buy the crossover episodes in one package. 

Haven't all the crossover episodes been in the Blu Ray season sets?  It's always annoyed me that the Blu Ray people get the all but the DVDs have only the episodes from that specific show.

quarks

quarks

3 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Haven't all the crossover episodes been in the Blu Ray season sets?  It's always annoyed me that the Blu Ray people get the all but the DVDs have only the episodes from that specific show.

Maybe more recently? They weren't for the first few Arrowverse crossovers - Arrow 308/Flash 108 and Arrow 408/Flash 208. 

But what I'd like is to have a DVD/Blu-Ray of just the five crossover episodes (well, I guess six, now that it turns out Black Lightning is more involved in this than sending its lead over for a cameo appearance.) 

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Primal Slayer

Primal Slayer

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Haven't all the crossover episodes been in the Blu Ray season sets?  It's always annoyed me that the Blu Ray people get the all but the DVDs have only the episodes from that specific show.

They want DVDs to die, just wait until everything goes to 4k and Blu Ray is on the hit list.

way2interested

way2interested

(edited)
9 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

MG had said something about six guest stars that hadn’t been revealed for the first three hours, right? Any idea how many of those we’ve gotten so far?

Barring counting the two Titans and The Ray, I'd guess one of them was Wil Wheaton, one is likely Tom Ellis, and maybe Jonah Hex (if he doesn't count the actor spoiling his appearance as "being revealed" since they never came out and said he was coming back)?

ETA: Wentworth Miller too! Can't believe I forgot about him!

Edited by way2interested
MarkHB
Message added by MarkHB

This thread is specifically for discussion of Elseworlds, Crisis on Infinite Earths, and speculation and spoilers directly pertaining to them.  Full rules for the thread are here; please read them.  Off-topic posts may be removed.

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