S20.E12: Nominations #4

[Cutty]

1 minute ago, Vixenstud said:

Is Sandy the only HOH we got the privilege of seeing?  I don't recall the 'who wants to see my HOH room' when Poodlehead won.

Yeah. I'm guessing they only showed it for Sam's speech. The editors didn't have much to work with considering there was no talk of nominations. I think they had to convey why. 

[GalvDuck]

2 minutes ago, Cutty said:

Yeah. I'm guessing they only showed it for Sam's speech. The editors didn't have much to work with considering there was no talk of nominations. I think they had to convey why. 

That, and the Kaitlyn/Fessy confrontation was still going on, so I guess it just naturally segued from one to the next for the editors without having to cut the K/F thing off at a weird place.

[laurakaye]

6 hours ago, ghoulina said:

But, can we stop for a minute and talk about - Aradia, Avalon, and Isaac? Who named those kids? Wilbur from Charlotte's Web?

Nonstar (love the nickname) mouthing her kid's names was nothing but a ploy for more camera time, and it worked - how many times did we see her in close-up?  I could practically see the thought-bubble over her head: "This is going to make me seem very deep and mysterious.  I shall chant my children's names until I win this -- WHOOPS first off the tree!  Bummer."

 

2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

• While I appreciate Sam's dedication to evicting the leeches (Foutté and co.) that had been infesting the HoH the first three weeks, often swarming up there in a pack, I do think that cutting off all pre-nominations access not only made her look bitchy, but cost her a chance to gain information and/or create further divisions.  Overkill, perhaps?

This, so much.  I applaud the idea of not letting everyone sweat all over her own personal bed and eat all of her personal food, but by shutting everyone out completely, there's going to be a lot of chatter in the house that is never going to make it back to her, based on her own desire to want to keep the HOH room all to herself.  Great concept, poor execution.

[Growsonwalls]

31 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I get the feeling that whether Sam went too far is going to depend on what generation the viewer is from and their life experiences.

In my case, given my generation and life experiences what Sam said wasn't a big deal.  Not even close.  If Sam acted that way toward me, I would laugh in her face, because I have been through so much worse.  I don't want a pity party, it is what it is.

If a viewer's life has been all sunshine and rainbows with no real difficulties, then I guess I can understand where they could feel that Sam went too far.

There really needs to be one standard definition for bullying so we are all on the same page.

ETA: In my book, Sam doesn't come close to bullying.

Well my life hasn't been sunshine and rainbows and Sam's speech made me cringe, if only because it reminds me of some childhood experiences growing up where my parents made so many normal things (painting my nails, wanting my hair in anything other than a boyish bowl cut, not wanting to wear sweatpants) sound "slutty." My parents were well-meaning but being slapped for wearing nail polish isn't something I'll forget.

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Just because Kaitlyn, Haleigh, Rockstar and Faysal are idiots doesn't mean Tyler is a genius. 

Yer kidding, right?  Because next to that Fearsome Foursome, Tyler is this House’s answer to Albert Fucking Einstein.

[amazingracefan]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

https://www.cbs.com/shows/big_brother/cast/215890/

snipped:

"Fun facts about yourself:
- I have a very short fuse when it comes to my height.
- I was nearly fired in the middle of a dance performance.
- I say I'm 5'0", but I'm only 4'8".
- I was born in Cuba while my parents were living there for work. (They're from Spain, originally.)"

 

I get the feeling that whether Sam went too far is going to depend on what generation the viewer is from and their life experiences.

In my case, given my generation and life experiences what Sam said wasn't a big deal.  Not even close.  If Sam acted that way toward me, I would laugh in her face, because I have been through so much worse.  I don't want a pity party, it is what it is.

If a viewer's life has been all sunshine and rainbows with no real difficulties, then I guess I can understand where they could feel that Sam went too far.

There really needs to be one standard definition for bullying so we are all on the same page.

ETA: In my book, Sam doesn't come close to bullying.

It's a bit different on Big Brother, confined to a house with strangers and on national TV.

 

And what happened to Hayleigh's Shakespeare task, my guess is that they went easy on it, and just stopped. 

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, Jess14 said:

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m not at all surprised that there are people with Sam’s viewpoint. I also don’t think it’s necessarily a byproduct of of growing up in a small town. Sexism isn’t constrained to small, middle of nowhere areas. Regardless, Sam is cosmopolitan enough to go on a reality show. Im not going to give her a break anymore than I will anyone else who has chosen to go on a reality tv show. Kaitlin may well have a ton of childhood reasons why she acts like she does, but I don’t care about that either. She’s annoys and she needs to go - along with Sam. 

As I said before, I’m not condoning, defending or otherwise excusing Sam’s viewpoint - simply stating I believe I understand it, because I have relatives in rural settings (too small to be called “towns”) with the same closed mindset.  

And I expect Sam is like the vast VAST majority of people who, although they may acknowledge the existence of other viewpoints, secretly believe theirs is the only true “right” one - and if they take the time to point out the “errors” of other viewpoints, eventually anybody thinking straight will agree with them.  :P

[leocadia]

1 hour ago, GalvDuck said:

That, and the Kaitlyn/Fessy confrontation was still going on, so I guess it just naturally segued from one to the next for the editors without having to cut the K/F thing off at a weird place.

We also would have lost the opportunity to see Kaitlyn go from "literally" sobbing to being A-OK in the blink of an eye.  

[NickPappagiorgio]

Bayleigh uses race the same way other people use God: it’s nice to believe this eternal being has smiled upon you when good things happen, while shifting all blame to that being when things bad things happen. She uses it to make herself feel special whenever she accomplishes something (first black Miss Missouri, first black showmance, only white girl in her school) but she also uses it to absolve herself of all personality responsibility whenever something doesn’t go her away. Anything she achieves is grander because she did it while black; anything she doesn’t achieve is kept from her specifically because she is black. She is at once awesome and oppressed, depending on what makes her look better in the moment. She’s the only black girl in the house so she’s at a constant disadvantage (I posit she would be doing horribly at the game if it were all black people in the house), yet she also got the trending app, so she’s awesome. She sees either a vase or two faces, according to what suits her better. 

If you are in your 20s and don’t know M is offensive, you don’t get to lecture me about today’s standards, I don’t care what color your skin is. You are shockingly ignorant and need to worry about yourself ahead of me. JC heard what she said, Bay heard not a goddamn thing he said, and I think part of her going down this road with JC specifically was that she knew she could twist him with the language barrier (which to his credit, JC did excellent at communicating through.)

“I’m quoting you! So you can’t get mad!”

What?! So anybody anywhere in history says something once and it’s fair game since you’re discussing a quote. Or “you can’t get mad over a question?” I can think of about 50 questions that would’ve sent her into the stratosphere. 

The only person we’ve seen with race issues this season is her, which mainfests in the self-loathing she wrongly attributes to others putting on her, and this “You can’t talk to me about race!” which always positions her as the Other/victim. It’s fine for her to be offended, of course. Just as it’s fine for me to think she’s ridiculous and not care that she’s offended. Race is what keeps her from doing any real work on herself and keeps her the demeaned, golddigging broad racing against time that she is.

How these people have tolerated Kaitlin’s bullshit without going off on her is beyond me. I feel like it’s only when she’s in histrionic pain that’s that she’s not actively inflicting herself upon others, and even then it’s a “Come comfort me!” type thing. That is not female empowerment. Hate. She would be a terrible friend/partner in every way.

If Haleigh doesn’t like being called a slut, then find some other game beyond showmances and fake eyelashes. Her family already knows what she’s about, I’d bet dollars to donuts. And the Tyler/Fessy massages are pretty gross.

The instant Fessy stops hitting the gym daily, he will balloon into an absolute whale. He already has the multiple chins going. 

RS jumping on Brett would’ve been the point where I told her/B.B. to get her the fuck off of me before she goes sailing through the wall and then really has something to sob about on her daughters birthday. In that vein, I don’t think Sam was wrong in that some of the women demand a different kind of treatment than do the other players, nor do I think it was wrong to say it. The truth hurts sometimes, and I don’t think Kaitlin/Haleigh rep female strength in any way. Just because Sam doesn’t feed their narcissistic delusions where everything can be erased with a caress doesn’t make her a bully. Please. She said one thing once to them. Bullying doesn’t mean that you can’t have any reaction that isn’t beamingly positive, or that you have to turn a blind eye to someone’s shit.

[Mumbles]

Reading some of this stuff makes me extremely sympathetic of what Baleigh has had to deal with all her life. 

[Cotypubby]

Bayleigh wants to play the offended victim and has no self-awareness that she is offending other people.

5 hours ago, After7Only said:

 A better analogy for JC to have used is if he said using the M word is like calling Bayleigh ghetto (and notice I didn't use G-word...LOL). 

 

No, that would not be a better analogy as that completely misses the entire point of the conversation. You obviously still don't understand just how offensive the word is towards JC, which is why his analogy was on point and needed to be said.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Cotypubby

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, laurakaye said:

Nonstar (love the nickname) mouthing her kid's names was nothing but a ploy for more camera time, and it worked - how many times did we see her in close-up?  I could practically see the thought-bubble over her head: "This is going to make me seem very deep and mysterious.  I shall chant my children's names until I win this -- WHOOPS first off the tree!  Bummer."

LOL! She is just something else. And thanks for all who have shared the Nonstar nickname. LOVE it. I am loathe to call her by her self-proclaimed moniker, so I've been calling her Angie. But there is an Angela in the house (or is there???), so this is better. 

 

48 minutes ago, NickPappagiorgio said:

I don’t think Sam was wrong in that some of the women demand a different kind of treatment than do the other players, nor do I think it was wrong to say it. The truth hurts sometimes, and I don’t think Kaitlin/Haleigh rep female strength in any way. Just because Sam doesn’t feed their narcissistic delusions where everything can be erased with a caress doesn’t make her a bully. Please. She said one thing once to them. Bullying doesn’t mean that you can’t have any reaction that isn’t beamingly positive, or that you have to turn a blind eye to someone’s shit.

Preach! Not only did I not see it as bullying; I did not see it as slut shaming either. She was speaking about their behavior in the context of the GAME. And I think that's a perfectly valid reason to not want to play with someone. People throughout BB history have called others out for game play that they, personally, do not like. I happen to agree with Sam. I could care less about chicks flirting with dudes, hooking up with dudes - and vice versa. But if you're trying to attach yourself to someone (of any gender) in order to coast along and get further in the game, that's not a strategy everyone likes. I'm not saying it's not a valid strategy. People are entitled to play any way they want. And I've seen guys do it before (McCrae - Amanda). I just think it's kind of weak game play and am not a fan. It has nothing to do with slut shaming, IMO. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Yer kidding, right?  Because next to that Fearsome Foursome, Tyler is this House’s answer to Albert Fucking Einstein.

Well, that's my point: it's relative. The Three Stooges are geniuses compared to Kaitlyn and Faysal. Mind you, Tyler is for sure playing a good game, but I'm not willing to describe him as brilliant or as a genius. He's just lucky that he's playing with a bunch of morons who believe him. That's all. I mean, the minute he started pitching Kaitlyn's own alliance to her she should have realized he wasn't on her side. That doesn't make Tyler a genius, it just makes Kaitlyn an idiot.

Edited July 23, 2018 by iMonrey

[Jess14]

10 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

Preach! Not only did I not see it as bullying; I did not see it as slut shaming either. She was speaking about their behavior in the context of the GAME. And I think that's a perfectly valid reason to not want to play with someone. People throughout BB history have called others out for game play that they, personally, do not like. I happen to agree with Sam. I could care less about chicks flirting with dudes, hooking up with dudes - and vice versa. But if you're trying to attach yourself to someone (of any gender) in order to coast along and get further in the game, that's not a strategy everyone likes. I'm not saying it's not a valid strategy. People are entitled to play any way they want. And I've seen guys do it before (McCrae - Amanda). I just think it's kind of weak game play and am not a fan. It has nothing to do with slut shaming, IMO. 

I didn’t get at all that she was only referring to the game. If it was all about the game, then what was that “you’re disrespecting the young men in the house” nonsense about. It seemed extremely clear to me that she subscribes to the ‘boys will be boys, and women need to not be sluts and tempt the poor men who just can’t help themselves’ mentality.  

How is everything she said not 100% applicable to Faysal? Kaitlin, while I can’t stand her, has actually won an HOH and took out a big target, and if anything Tyler is using Kaitlin and her feelings for him more than the other way around. She’s cray, but I get the sense that she actually likes him. Tyler, I don’t think can stand her, which I can’t either, so I have no problem with him at all, but I’m not the one talking about respect and empowerment. Sam is. 

[backformore]

I'm not crazy about Sam's delivery, but I have to agree with part of the message.   Kaitlyn and Hayleigh have been shown cuddling, laying on top of, stroking, some of the guys in the house.  At least once, it was both of them at the same time, cuddling with one guy.  I liked that Sam called them out for playing the game that way - not on their own merits, but by trying to partner with a guy by being physical with them.     I guess some people are comfortable with the behavior, calling it "flirting", but laying in bed with someone, caressing their chest, playing with their hair, saying "I  love you", is past flirting.   It's the part of BB that I dislike.  I think it's because it's one-sided.  If a guy climbs into bed with one of the women, it would be seen differently.  If two guys, on either side of a woman, were caressing her, it would be seen differently.  So I think Sam was saying that Hayleigh and Kaitlyn were coming on to men sexually, and using their sexuality as a tactic in the game.  She doesn't like that, so she called them out on it. 

[Skycatcher]

36 minutes ago, backformore said:

I'm not crazy about Sam's delivery, but I have to agree with part of the message.   Kaitlyn and Hayleigh have been shown cuddling, laying on top of, stroking, some of the guys in the house.  At least once, it was both of them at the same time, cuddling with one guy. 

Don't blame it on the women.  They are all  big boys.  If they didn't like it,  if they weren't enjoying themselves, all they had to do was say please stop and/or remove themselves from the situation.   If Tyler doesn't like Kaitlyn but cuddles with her and fusses over her because at the moment she's good for his game what does that make him?  Faysal, on the other hand,  has turned into a creepy stalker who just can't seem to take Haileigh's "no" for an answer.

ETA:  I don't like that kind of gameplay but obviously some people think it works for them

Edited July 23, 2018 by Skycatcher

[Nashville]

12 minutes ago, backformore said:

I liked that Sam called them out for playing the game that way - not on their own merits, but by trying to partner with a guy by being physical with them.     I guess some people are comfortable with the behavior, calling it "flirting", but laying in bed with someone, caressing their chest, playing with their hair, saying "I  love you", is past flirting.   It's the part of BB that I dislike. 

I dislike that style of play as well, but not out of moral objections; if that’s the entirety of your strategy, then I just think it’s lazy gameplay.

 

12 minutes ago, backformore said:

I think it's because it's one-sided.  If a guy climbs into bed with one of the women, it would be seen differently.  If two guys, on either side of a woman, were caressing her, it would be seen differently. 

Yeah - it would be seen as sexual assault.  All hail the double standard!

 

12 minutes ago, backformore said:

So I think Sam was saying that Hayleigh and Kaitlyn were coming on to men sexually, and using their sexuality as a tactic in the game.  She doesn't like that, so she called them out on it. 

Yeah, but here’s the thing: I’d be willing to bet money that nowhere in the BB rule book does it say other HGs’ selected modes of play must meet the particular satisfaction criteria of one Sam Bledsoe.  If it’s not Sam’s style, big deal; nobody’s holding a gun to Sam’s head and forcing her to do it.  By the same token, though, Sam’s using the HoH’s Big Block Gun to punish them for personally objectionable gameplay style may technically be within the rules - but that doesn’t make it right.  

Or, to put it in SamSpeak, “fair”.

[mojoween]

Seriously.  Fuck Sam and her self-righteousness.

In the bio above it says that JC’s parents are Spanish (or from Spain?) but he was born in Cuba.  For those who wold know better than I, is his accent Cuban or Spanish?  I’m just curious because while I occasionally find JC’s actions skeevy to watch, I love listening to him speak.

[lilmarysunshine]

1 hour ago, Cotypubby said:

Bayleigh wants to play the offended victim and has no self-awareness that she is offending other people.

Zero self-awareness. She's complaining to JC about being 1 of 4 black kids at her high school. Guarantee you he was he only senior guy under 5 ft. I've read dwarfism is considered under 4'10" so he's close to that and the prevalence ranges from 1 in 15,000 to 1 in 40,000.  Does she really think he didn't feel alone in high school?  That he wasn't made fun of constantly? 

[aurora296]

Everything's been pretty much covered, but I wanted to add that I've been really enjoying this season so far. The dynamics, power shifts and players that are choosing big moves instead of easy ones makes for one of the best seasons in a long time.

I fall more and more in love with Tyler with every episode, but this last one really impressed me. He has a way of looking deeply at anyone he's talking to, like they are the most important person in the wordl to him and he has a great smile too. His answer to Kaitlyn when she wanted him to swear on his father's grave, was just excellent. He squirmed out of that easily. He's now bonding with JC, plotting and planning the BS story about Crockstar lying about her vote, he's chummy with Level 5/6, Kaitlyn and Haleigh lay at his side gazing lovingly like his own personal harem. He and Sam are close. He basically has no enemies in the house and he's been quietly controlling the game. If this continues for him and he wins the game, I have no problem placing him in a top 3 position (with Will and Dan) as best BB player ever. If he doesn't win, I'm almost positive he will be called back for a future season. He's good tv. 

[aurora296]

17 hours ago, MrHufflepuff said:

Because the offensiveness of a particular usage depends on the context and who is saying it.  And this is something most of us deal with all the time, and you've probably dealt with before too.  If my best friend calls me a "bitch,"  I'm not going to get upset.  But if someone bumps into me at a bar and then calls me a "bitch," I would be offended.  It's the same word, but the offensiveness changed based on who said it and the context it was said in.

And in-group/out-group usage distinctions are also common.  Marines call each other "jar head" all the time.  But if you aren't a Marine and you go up and call a Marine a "jar head," well, that's probably not going to go over well.  That's very similar to how it's okay for African-American rappers to say the n-word, while it's not acceptable for me or you to say it.

But if we go with rappers, you probably aren't going to hear the n-word in any over-the-air broadcasts.  I didn't even know that the Kanye West song "Golddigger" had the n-word in it for a long time, since the n-word is removed for the radio cut.  So, it's not even always acceptable for rappers to use it, and they will get censored regularly if they do use it.

Language usage often doesn't follow simple rules.  The usage of the n-word is a bit more complex because it's tied into the history of race relations in the US.  A lot of people don't have the time or inclination to learn about that history in that detail, so it's just safer not to say it. 

I don't understand this. JC didn't call her the n-word, yet she still got upset with him. It took a lot of talking to calm her down and make her understand nothing was said against her. And if the N-word is the absolute most disgusting word out there, wouldn't it a great idea if no one said it anymore, so it would become obsolete and fade out of usage? I have a young son and I make a point of never swearing or making sure he doesn't hear any offensive words. Then one day I took him to the beach when he was 5. There was a group of black teens sitting near where my son was playing and they kept calling each other the n-word, loudly and frequently. It annoyed me, but since the beach was crowded we couldn't move to another spot. Later on that evening, I hear my son talking to himself, playing with his toys and calling one of the the n-word. Now I'm forced to explain why he can't say it, yet others can. At 5 years old it's all confusing to him. Now if he said the N-word in a grocery store and someone overheard it, I would be called a bad mom for allowing him to hear and say it. And I'm also gonna put this out there: If JC was a straight, white guy or average height and he said exactly what JC said, this would have been headline news for weeks and tv forums would be dragging him through the mud and booing him offstage. 

[Tachi Rocinante]

7 hours ago, After7Only said:

450 years of American history is the final arbiter.    Slavery, Dred Scott, Jim Crow, segregation, separate but equal, red lining, the KKK, Aryan brotherhood, and rallys in Charlottesville, and others parts of the US, etc..... all final arbiters.  

???  Are you including the Aztecs of South America??  Or am I missing something here??

[After7Only]

17 minutes ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

???  Are you including the Aztecs of South America??  Or am I missing something here??

Sorry, I was off by 50.  I’ll correct my statement to 400 years of American history....lol

2 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

Bayleigh wants to play the offended victim and has no self-awareness that she is offending other people.

No, that would not be a better analogy as that completely misses the entire point of the conversation. You obviously still don't understand just how offensive the word is towards JC, which is why his analogy was on point and needed to be said.

I listened to him speak and I understand it’s very offensive to him.  But It’s not the same.   It’s what Bayleigh was trying to explain to JC.   But was too wrapped up in her trauma around the word to do well.  Again I can understand JC not understanding the historical implication of the word, but multi generational Americans should know better.....  

3 hours ago, Mumbles said:

Reading some of this stuff makes me extremely sympathetic of what Baleigh has had to deal with all her life. 

Whew!   Yes, being told you’re playing victim and your concerns and feelings aren’t real or justified is infuriating.   

[lilmarysunshine]

14 minutes ago, After7Only said:

 

Whew!   Yes, being told you’re playing victim and your concerns and feelings aren’t real or justified is infuriating.   

Likely how JC felt after that conversation with Bayleigh.

[After7Only]

6 minutes ago, lilmarysunshine said:

Likely how JC felt after that conversation with Bayleigh.

I watched the show.  He said he wasn’t mad or offended by what Bayleigh said.  He was trying to justify the choice of words he used.    She also did not try to discredit his feelings. Trying to understand his feelings on the M word is how the whole convo started.    So for the audience to think JC felt infuriated contradicts everything we’ve seen (and common sense lol).....

[Kris117]

9 hours ago, watch2much said:

I was watching this with my son who went to a magnet school within a school that was predominantly African-American.  He heard that word used a lot by the black students to each other and questioned why if the word is so bad, it's not universally banned, and I had no answer for that.  Same with the previous quoting of lyrics....this it's ok for us but not you mind set is ridiculous.  

It’s pretty simple, really: Don’t punch down. All of those words mentioned between JC and Bayleigh are words used to hurt and denigrate people who are perceived as lesser beings because of their appearance or whom they love, qualities that they were born with. The people who use them view themselves as superior because they weren’t born with those qualities, and feel the need to punch down at those they perceive as inferior beings. So if you aren’t one of that group, you really should not be using that word. 

 

If people within those groups choose to use the offensive word amongst themselves, it’s often a way to reclaim some power over the word that has traditionally been used to denigrate and wound. If you aren’t part of that group, you have no reason to be using that word because it can never mean to you what it means to them. 

 

I don’t like the usage of the n-word or any of those words at all, so I wish they weren’t used in rap. But it’s not my choice to make. Show respect to others by allowing them to make choices about words that have long been used to hurt. 

 

That’s where I think JC went wrong at first. He should have said “n-word” instead of the actual word, and when he did, he should have apologized right away, and then gone on to make his point. On the other hand, Bayleigh was oblivious to the fact that she was guilty of the same mistake, but with different words. 

 

I’m still flabbergasted at that glimpse into Sam’s upbringing revealed by her comments to Kaitlyn and Haleigh. “Now Sam, boys and men just have these urges and needs that they can’t control, so they need girls to save them from those urges by not provoking or tempting them in any way. It’s your duty as a good Christian girl.” I just can’t believe that kind of attitude is still being propagated. I mean, I’m 62 and Catholic and I never heard that crap. 

[Kris117]

6 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

In my book, Sam doesn't come close to bullying.

Agreed. Rude, childish, hypocritical, dumb, and jealous, maybe, but not bullying. 

[Growsonwalls]

5 minutes ago, Kris117 said:

I’m still flabbergasted at that glimpse into Sam’s upbringing revealed by her comments to Kaitlyn and Haleigh. “Now Sam, boys and men just have these urges and needs that they can’t control, so they need girls to save them from those urges by not provoking or tempting them in any way. It’s your duty as a good Christian girl.” I just can’t believe that kind of attitude is still being propagated. I mean, I’m 62 and Catholic and I never heard that crap. 

Well it's the same idea as say the Duggars telling the girls they have to "stay sweet" and that apparently meant being silent as their older brother molested them. I think it's very prevalent in certain super conservative groups. What I don't get about Sam is how she'd think a trashy reality tv show in Hollywood CA would be particularly receptive to that sort of worldview. 

[Kris117]

2 hours ago, mojoween said:

Seriously.  Fuck Sam and her self-righteousness.

In the bio above it says that JC’s parents are Spanish (or from Spain?) but he was born in Cuba.  For those who wold know better than I, is his accent Cuban or Spanish?  I’m just curious because while I occasionally find JC’s actions skeevy to watch, I love listening to him speak.

Cuban, I would say, as a non-native Spanish speaker who had instructors from many different Spanish-speaking areas (i.e. not even close to being an expert). Cubans often drop ends of words or run words together in their Spanish and that can transfer into English. 

[Jess14]

12 minutes ago, Kris117 said:

It’s pretty simple, really: Don’t punch down. All of those words mentioned between JC and Bayleigh are words used to hurt and denigrate people who are perceived as lesser beings because of their appearance or whom they love, qualities that they were born with. The people who use them view themselves as superior because they weren’t born with those qualities, and feel the need to punch down at those they perceive as inferior beings. So if you aren’t one of that group, you really should not be using that word. 

 

If people within those groups choose to use the offensive word amongst themselves, it’s often a way to reclaim some power over the word that has traditionally been used to denigrate and wound. If you aren’t part of that group, you have no reason to be using that word because it can never mean to you what it means to them. 

 

I don’t like the usage of the n-word or any of those words at all, so I wish they weren’t used in rap. But it’s not my choice to make. Show respect to others by allowing them to make choices about words that have long been used to hurt. 

 

That’s where I think JC went wrong at first. He should have said “n-word” instead of the actual word, and when he did, he should have apologized right away, and then gone on to make his point. On the other hand, Bayleigh was oblivious to the fact that she was guilty of the same mistake, but with different words. 

 

I’m still flabbergasted at that glimpse into Sam’s upbringing revealed by her comments to Kaitlyn and Haleigh. “Now Sam, boys and men just have these urges and needs that they can’t control, so they need girls to save them from those urges by not provoking or tempting them in any way. It’s your duty as a good Christian girl.” I just can’t believe that kind of attitude is still being propagated. I mean, I’m 62 and Catholic and I never heard that crap. 

 

4 minutes ago, Kris117 said:

Agreed. Rude, childish, hypocritical, dumb, and jealous, maybe, but not bullying. 

Agree with both of these posts, 100%. I found Sam to be judgmental and sexist, but I wouldn't call it bullying. I don't know what I would consider to be the definition of bullying, but I think it requires more than just a statement, rude as it may have been. Now, the fact that she's just now saying this to their faces when she's in a position of power and they're not has some hallmarks of bullying, but I don't think her speech rises to that. 

As for the first post, I've never understood the "why can't I use a derogatory slur like the people in [said minority] group can" sentiment. I know women who are friends who call themselves the b word. I think it's odd. I would be offended if someone greeted me like that, but I also completely understand why if I walked up to one of them and was like, "hey B_____, what's going on," it wouldn't go over well. We're not cool like that! I'm not in that circle of friends who has decided that it's ok [for them] to call each other that. I'm perfectly ok with that being the case. It has no bearing on my life to not use the word when I greet them, and I don't think its so unfair that they can call each other that, and I can't. While it's not the same thing (and I'm not suggesting that it is at all), I feel the same way with the n-word, the f-word, etc. 

[Rachel RSL]

2 hours ago, aurora296 said:

.And I'm also gonna put this out there: If JC was a straight, white guy or average height and he said exactly what JC said, this would have been headline news for weeks and tv forums would be dragging him through the mud and booing him offstage. 

If JC were a straight white guy of average height and that conversation had been exactly the same, him trying to explain to Bay how offensive the M word is, the reactions, in my opinion, would be exactly the same. Because we recognize the context.  Of course, that conversation never would have happened if JC were a straight white guy of average height.

By the way, I appreciate the intelligent discussion going on here. And I appreciate the mods for letting it happen.

Edited July 24, 2018 by Rachel RSL

[MrHufflepuff]

3 hours ago, aurora296 said:

I don't understand this. JC didn't call her the n-word, yet she still got upset with him. It took a lot of talking to calm her down and make her understand nothing was said against her. And if the N-word is the absolute most disgusting word out there, wouldn't it a great idea if no one said it anymore, so it would become obsolete and fade out of usage?

Let's leave aside JC for a second.  You actually haven't responded to anything I've said.  I made 4 points in my post, and you completely ignored them all.  Here are the points I made:  (1) the offensiveness of the word depends on who says it and the context (and I gave an example), (2) there is such a thing as in-group/out-group usage (and I gave an example), (3) rappers have restrictions on their use of the n-word (and I gave an example) and (4) the history of the n-word is tied up with the history of US race relations, which most people don't take the time to learn about.  You didn't respond to any of that.  

Do you really not understand that I am going to respond to the word "bitch" differently depending on who says it and how they say it?  Do you speak the exact same way to your kids, work colleagues, friends and strangers?  If you change the way you speak, then you do understand the points I'm making.

Most people do understand this stuff.  They just refuse to apply it to the n-word, but happily apply it to practically every other word in their daily usage.  Politeness rules, etiquette rules, Mrs. Manners' rules, etc. all depend on the notion that behaviors and words that might be acceptable in one context aren't acceptable in another.

3 hours ago, aurora296 said:

 I hear my son talking to himself, playing with his toys and calling one of the the n-word. Now I'm forced to explain why he can't say it, yet others can. At 5 years old it's all confusing to him. 

And?  If your 5-year-old had heard someone say the word "f*ck" at the beach, you'd have to explain to him why he couldn't use it.  If he heard Rockstar yelling "micro-penis" on BB, then you'd have to explain to him why he couldn't use it.  I suppose it's confusing to a 5 year-old, but societal rules are often confusing for small children.   There's nothing unique about the n-word here, though.  You have to do this with a bunch of other words too.  

Now, let's get back to JC...

I personally don't take offense with the way JC used the word, but I also wouldn't use it that way simply because I know it upsets people to do so.   I also wouldn't use the word "micro-penis" around your 5-year old (or anybody else's), since I know some parents would get upset if I did.  

3 hours ago, aurora296 said:

And I'm also gonna put this out there: If JC was a straight, white guy or average height and he said exactly what JC said, this would have been headline news for weeks and tv forums would be dragging him through the mud and booing him offstage. 

Yeah, maybe.  But the US is a country where people are openly racist and often are rewarded for it (or at the very least, they get away with it).

There are plenty of examples of straight, white males being racist, sexist pigs on this show and not having any repercussions.  There are so many examples of it, in fact, that when there are actual repercussions (like with Aaryn), it's pretty surprising.

Edited July 24, 2018 by MrHufflepuff

[Wandering Snark]

I wish we'd seen a live reaction at the hometown bar to Sam's nomination speech.

[Nashville]

6 hours ago, Wandering Snark said:

I wish we'd seen a live reaction at the hometown bar to Sam's nomination speech.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some scattered applause.

[Jess14]

5 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

What was sexist about it?  Kaitlyn and Haleigh have been handsy with at least a couple of the male house guests.  Do those women really have to do that to have any chance of winning the game?  Aren't they capable of winning the game with their brain? And what does that say about their view of the male house guests?   Is it possible that Kaitlyn and Haleigh may feel that they can get all handsy with the men and possibly manipulate them through that emotional process?  How far are they willing to go?

I’ll respond with one of my posts from yesterday: 

16 hours ago, Jess14 said:

I didn’t get at all that she was only referring to the game. If it was all about the game, then what was that “you’re disrespecting the young men in the house” nonsense about. It seemed extremely clear to me that she subscribes to the ‘boys will be boys, and women need to not be sluts and tempt the poor men who just can’t help themselves’ mentality.  

How is everything she said not 100% applicable to Faysal? Kaitlin, while I can’t stand her, has actually won an HOH and took out a big target, and if anything Tyler is using Kaitlin and her feelings for him more than the other way around. She’s cray, but I get the sense that she actually likes him. Tyler, I don’t think can stand her, which I can’t either, so I have no problem with him at all, but I’m not the one talking about respect and empowerment. Sam is. 

It’s sexist because she’s holding the men to a different standard. If you don’t see that, then fine, we can certainly agree to disagree, but it’s clear as day to me. Faysal and Tyler are also quite “handsy” with the women. The behavior is not one-sided. They’re not being manipulated by the harlots, yet Sam seems to be a-ok with the men’s behavior and she thinks that the men are the only ones being disrespected. If one dislikes that gameplay, fine, I’m not crazy about it myself, but if it’s only a problem when the women are attempting to use their looks and physical/emotional connection to get ahead and not the men, then that’s sexist. 

[Skycatcher]

23 minutes ago, Jess14 said:

Faysal and Tyler are also quite “handsy” with the women............ Sam seems to be a-ok with the men’s behavior

 But Sam already explained that. Men, being mere men, simply can't control themselves. 

It's up to the wiser wimmin-folk to make sure that the men don't misbehave  by being bastions of virtue and purity........ and uptight upright G-rated game play.

Edited July 24, 2018 by Skycatcher
spelling counts

[Growsonwalls]

8 minutes ago, Skycatcher said:

 But Sam already explained that. Men, being mere men, simply can't control themselves. 

It's up to the wiser wimmin-folk to make sure that the men don't miss behave  by being bastions of virtue and purity........ and uptight upright G-rated game play.

Not to mention that Sam is clutching her pearls over some very mild flirting. There hasn't been much happening other than the flirting you'd expect to see in any summer camp. Whatever would she have done last season, or in BB15, or BB18, where there was actually real, extremely sexual showmances?

[Jess14]

6 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Not to mention that Sam is clutching her pearls over some very mild flirting. There hasn't been much happening other than the flirting you'd expect to see in any summer camp. Whatever would she have done last season, or in BB15, or BB18, where there was actually real, extremely sexual showmances?

Right! Especially with Hayleigh. She just kinda seems to be flirting and cuddling here and there to pass the time. I don’t get the sense that she’s just trying to look pretty and be carried in the game by Faysal. I think she joined an alliance that she thought was strong and has tried to win comps (just hasn’t succeeded yet - along with most houseguests, including Sam up until a few days ago). And Kaitlin is so damn crazy that I don’t know if it’s strategy or not. Regardless, neither one of them seem to be engaging in an Allison (season 4) strategy yet. This cast seems tame to me.

[Neveragain]

On 7/22/2018 at 9:58 PM, Annlynn said:

 

I think Tyler is the only one I want to win. He is playing a great game, but not in an asshat way. 

 

My nature is always to root for the underdogs, I just can't help it.  I find this is maybe the first time I'm actively rooting for a guy like Tyler.  I agree with you, he's playing a great game, but very inoffensively.  And that bit in the DR made me laugh, I'm usually immune to stuff like that. Go Tyler!

[NickPappagiorgio]

52 minutes ago, Skycatcher said:

 But Sam already explained that. Men, being mere men, simply can't control themselves. 

It's up to the wiser wimmin-folk to make sure that the men don't misbehave  by being bastions of virtue and purity........ and uptight upright G-rated game play.

The difference is the male halves of these pairs, Fessy and Ty, have done things in the game besides massage around. Won comps, made decisions. Haleigh hasn’t done jack shit except be deceived at every turn, and Kaitlin allowed herself to be totally manipulated by one love interest into blindsiding another love interest and into splitting another showmance.

That is what Sam was pointing to. Do something besides embody a Craigslist ad because their game is just being playthings for the men. 

[greyflannel]

JC and Bayleigh's conversation was a study in self absorption. She asked JC a question about what a little person should be called, unknowingly using a very derogatory term. In attempting to get her to understand how offensive that term was, he used 2 very derogatory terms. Yes, he could have not used the n-word in its entirety, but would that have conveyed the impact that the m-word can have on people?  The gut punch that she felt? That's what using the m word might feel to someone else. Instead of taking it as it was given, as an example of how offensive that word is, she chose to take it as an insult directed at her. She then proceeds to talk at him, no longer interested in having a conversation, not acknowledging that the m-word is just as offensive to him. Nobody owns the copyright on being offended. One can't say that their feeling of being offended are way more legitimate or important than those of anyone else. Well, they can say that, but that goes back to self absorption.  While JC does not use the n-word again in this conversation, Baileigh does continue to use the m-word when it was just explained to her that that word is just as offensive. Apparently she wasn't listening to that part of the conversation because it wasn't about her. Some people are like that. 

Edited July 24, 2018 by greyflannel

[amazingracefan]

11 minutes ago, NickPappagiorgio said:

The difference is the male halves of these pairs, Fessy and Ty, have done things in the game besides massage around. Won comps, made decisions. Haleigh hasn’t done jack shit except be deceived at every turn, and Kaitlin allowed herself to be totally manipulated by one love interest into blindsiding another love interest and into splitting another showmance.

That is what Sam was pointing to. Do something besides embody a Craigslist ad because their game is just being playthings for the men. 

Kaitlyn wanted to put up Swaggy and was happy to see him go, she actually suggested the blindside.  I know the edit was all from Tyler's viewpoint of him being some great mastermind, but they missed out the conflict arising from Kaitlyn singing the rap song.  She wanted him out.

I don't like 'Fessy' that much really, he wanted Kaitlyn as his ally, then he went over to Hayleigh, then Kaitlyn got HoH and he went back to her.  He probably finds Hayleigh boring, but he's pretty boring himself.

[amazingracefan]

The strange thing with the 'n' word is that rappers keep it alive, as a term of subjugation and insult.  Without them it could die.  Instead of changing its meaning to something positive or neutral they keep it alive as an insult, like the identity they want to espouse is one forever marginalised and enslaved.  That kind of viewpoint is normal with some underground music from punk and similar onwards, but rap has been mainsteam for over two decades.

[Jess14]

1 hour ago, NickPappagiorgio said:

The difference is the male halves of these pairs, Fessy and Ty, have done things in the game besides massage around. Won comps, made decisions. Haleigh hasn’t done jack shit except be deceived at every turn, and Kaitlin allowed herself to be totally manipulated by one love interest into blindsiding another love interest and into splitting another showmance.

That is what Sam was pointing to. Do something besides embody a Craigslist ad because their game is just being playthings for the men. 

Since Fessy has been just as deceived at every turn as Hayleigh (moreso actually), I’m guessing that all Hayleigh’s gotta do is win a competition or two, and then Sam will be perfectly fine with her gameplay and think that the massaging and flirting is acceptable....yeah somehow I doubt that.

Likewise, Kaitlin, who has played a pretty big role in 2 of the evictions so far, gets no credit. Apparently, she’s the manipulative woman who bears responsibility for disrespecting that young man, Tyler, but yet, she’s not responsible for winning HOH and getting out Swaggy? Tyler gets all of the credit for that. I can’t stand Kaitlin, but she’s had a bigger impact on the game than Fessy and several others.

If this is how Sam sees it, that doesn’t really change my (now, very low) opinion of her. Again though, i understand that people have different opinions on this. 

[Neveragain]

On 7/23/2018 at 11:21 AM, Vixenstud said:

Oh, and Angie?  Please stop with the blaccent, it is quite annoying.

Good one, love this!  I can apply it to so many teenagers in my suburban town

[gunderda]

On 7/23/2018 at 12:19 PM, Halting Hex said:

Apparently, 4'10" (or lower) is the height at which you are defined as having dwarfism, rather than simply being of short stature.  If JC has felt discriminated against on account of his (lack of) height, perhaps he doesn't want to be "officially" a dwarf.  But I'm only guessing, I admit.

I can't really think of how to say this but I think it's more of a visual you get in your head of 4 feet vs 5 feet.  I'm 5'1 and I've never had anyone be like "omg you're sooooo short!" whereas I have a friend who's 4'9-11 and she doesn't get a reaction until she actually says it.  You could be 4'11 and in people's mind they're only envisioning exactly 4 feet when you're almost 5 feet. Because most adults are in the 5 feet range.  Just like if someone says they're over 6 foot, people think that's SO tall.  But the height of basketball players just truly blows my mind lol.

1 hour ago, greyflannel said:

Yes, he could have not used the n-word in its entirety, but would that have conveyed the impact that the m-word can have on people?  The gut punch that she felt? That's what using the m word might feel to someone else. Instead of taking it as it was given, as an example of how offensive that word is, she chose to take it as an insult directed at her. 

That's exactly how I felt while watching it.  If JC would have said "n-word" I don't think Bailey would have gotten it.  He was making a point.  But I can't discount how Bayleigh feels because I'm not a black woman.  At the last time I'm not a little person so I can't really sympathize with JC either but I have to say I'm a little more on his side about this.  He didn't mean any harm and he was trying to make a point and I think he did - if Bayleigh would have been open to listening. 

Both the n-word and m-word are used in mainstream america.  There's m-word wrestling. N-word in raps and friends (mainly black) saying it to friends.  I had to tell my very young nephews that they should not call them that (when talking about m-wrestling - a commercial came on tv) and I'm not sure if I made an impact or not but I hope i did.  They asked why they couldn't say that. I said because it's not nice and said they should use little person instead. 

AND..... maybe I'm wrong.. but didn't Swaggy say the n-word early on in the feeds? 

[Mumbles]

Quote

The strange thing with the 'n' word is that rappers keep it alive, as a term of subjugation and insult.  Without them it could die.  Instead of changing its meaning to something positive or neutral they keep it alive as an insult, like the identity they want to espouse is one forever marginalised and enslaved.  That kind of viewpoint is normal with some underground music from punk and similar onwards, but rap has been mainsteam for over two decades. 

 

Not sure what your basis is to say that without rappers, the word would die.  Somehow I doubt that.

Also when used in a rap or vernacular context, it is not often used as an insult, but rather a term of camaraderie or irony, as in, this used to be a term to demean us, let's take it back and own it among ourselves. Some gay people use the H word or F word in the same way.

[iMonrey]

Quote

The gut punch that she felt? That's what using the m word might feel to someone else. Instead of taking it as it was given, as an example of how offensive that word is, she chose to take it as an insult directed at her.

I really didn't want to get into this, but the difference is that the "M" word was once an appropriate and acceptable description. The "N" word has never been so. It might have been used openly and commonly but it was never considered proper or appropriate by the people it referred to. Whereas once upon a time, the "M" word was the correct technical designation for certain segment of society, as it differentiated from the term "dwarf." One might have innocently asked what the difference was between the "M" word and the word "dwarf," the latter of which is still considered a correct term. I could see someone being confused about that. 

I think a more accurate analogy would have been the word "colored" because it was actually once considered proper - the NCAAP in fact still includes the word in its name. It's offensive now, but wasn't to my grandparents' generation. But then, I don't expect the likes of JC to understand the distinction. 

[greyflannel]

15 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I really didn't want to get into this, but the difference is that the "M" word was once an appropriate and acceptable description. The "N" word has never been so. It might have been used openly and commonly but it was never considered proper or appropriate by the people it referred to. Whereas once upon a time, the "M" word was the correct technical designation for certain segment of society, as it differentiated from the term "dwarf." One might have innocently asked what the difference was between the "M" word and the word "dwarf," the latter of which is still considered a correct term. I could see someone being confused about that. 

I think a more accurate analogy would have been the word "colored" because it was actually once considered proper - the NCAAP in fact still includes the word in its name. It's offensive now, but wasn't to my grandparents' generation. But then, I don't expect the likes of JC to understand the distinction. 

The conversation was about what is acceptable vs. offensive. Today. Not what used to be, not what should be, but what is. She asked the question using that word and he let her know that that word is just as offensive to people like him as the n-word is to her. Past usage, acceptance and/or technical designation aren't really relevant to this conversation. It's about what is offensive, no distinction required. 

[Rachel RSL]

To me, that's just completely discounting what JC said and completely misses his point. The M word is extremely offensive and shouldn't be said. Period. Whatever the history of the words are, the bottom line is that if someone tells you a word is an offensive, hurtful slur, you stop using it. It's not a competition about which word is more offensive. Somebody calling JC the M word is just as hurtful as someone calling Bay the N word. And nobody has the right to tell him that it isn't. Sometimes people honestly don't know the word is offensive but, once they've been told, that should be the end of it. They shouldn't argue with the person and they certainly shouldn't keep using the word.