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radishcake

S28.E13: It's Do or Die

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Ah the family segment! I guess they didn't want to fly in a lot more family members... so in return they let them all spend time together. With food! Tears and hugs and crying. Yay! Ok... time for the game. That went on longer than it needed to. But I guess we can only hear Tony talk about how the SHIIT is good until the next TC before even the editors get tired of the repetition.
 

Tony's comment that I'm a cop so I'm not corruptible was laughable. It made me dislike him more. "I'm not jumping down, I don't know how to swim" It's like lying is an unconscious reaction. He just lies. His argument to Woo was ridiculous. "You didn't play the game and Kass didn't. So you shouldn't take her." 
 

Woo's whole getting permission for getting engaged was cute. When he said "I'd be the stupidest player in Survivor history to take Tony with me" I thought "yes, but I don't see that as stopping you." And then I thought "well I guess it's Tony and Woo at the end" after all, why put that in the edit? Way to hand Tony 1M. And not even the satisfaction of seeing Kass get hammered by the jury. 
 

Kass - "I played like a man." No, you played like an asshole. Women have won this without playing in such a hyper-agressive way, men too! This gender card playing crap is right up there with the juvenile "I can't lift that I'm on my period". Calling the women on the jury "girls"? She's sucking down the misogynist koolaid too. The ONLY feather in her cap is pulling off that puzzle. She earned it. She is still an asshole that will lose for being an asshole.

Bye Spencer. Another Ozzy loss... choking at the final immunity and then getting voted out at 4. It was at the point that Kass won immunity that I checked out of this. At this point there is no one I'm pulling for to win. Woo got dragged to the end because he's nonthreatening. Kass because she's a goat. Between Tony and Spencer Spencer played harder - as Kass pointed out, Tony has been sliding through the wining tribe pretty much from the beginning. BUT, Tony made it to F3 so there is an argument that he played "better."

Probst, you dick. You just told children you can't wait to "snuff their flame" which is just... off putting. I get what he intended, but that delivery <shudder> just not good. 

Is it me or is this a bit of a trend? Seasons that start off really fun end up disappointing and seasons that start really irritating tend to end on a good note? Just me? Thought so... 


~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jury... I was bored until Trish. Seemed like until then everyone seemed pretty solidly against Tony (except Kass and that's only because Woo insulted her). But then Trish started her line of questioning. Even Probst took pause. At first I was irritated with her emoting... but what a powerful, unyielding argument. And yes, I caught Kass putting her hand up to Trish. I liked seeing that. It's good to see that Kass is able to recognize a person in actual pain and respond to that with a desire to comfort. Until then I seriously wouldn't be able to guess if she could do that or not. 

Spencer - You just confirmed why I didn't like him from the start. You just called Woo a dog? Dick. 

In the end I like Woo more because his game had more honor and integrity. He didn't play as hard, but he played the better game, one that can be respected. 

So of course Tony wins.

No Probst, what made it one of the best seasons is because you had all new faces with very few gimmicks.
 

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Stupid time for the family visit, and stupid reaction from Tony. Way to make your best friend feel like crap because he isn't your wife who is home taking the whole family thing seriously, unlike you. Ass.

 

Not cool at all for Woo to call Kass a "brain dead weasel" imho.

 

Why does Tony have to stop everything and point out how useless his idol is? And why do we need to hear more from Probst from "his" Reunion set during the finale? As if he doesn't have enough pull during that thing now we have to have him bust in during the last show? Ugh.

 

I've got this strange voice in my head after Spencer leaves that says "Okay, let Kass win now". I don't want The Dude to win because he's done nada, and I don't want Tony to win because, well, he's Tony...

 

Oh deer gahd, I thought Probst was heading toward there being a kids Survivor when talking to all those kids. Not that they could get cleared to leave kids out in the wilderness that long... right?? Right?!? *shudders*

 

Anyhow, I can only hope The Dude ends up being like a Shakespeare Studies teacher at some school based on his multiple doctorates and points out that he got there by playing the Dude but he is not in actuality the Dude.

 

Not sure if the "5 foundational principals" will top Outwit, Outplay, Outlast...

 

And, confession time, I kinda don't like FTC much. It makes me cringe most of the times.

 

And Tony needs to thank Spencer for his win...

 

I'm of two minds about this finish, one says "Damn, Tony got away with allllll that shit!" and the other says "Bad choice Woo, grats to Spencer."

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I didn't know people as spaced-out as Woo actually existed.  I couldn't stop laughing during his confessional about not knowing what would happen if there was a tie vote.  "Do we draw rocks?  Do we fight it out?!"  His facial expression while pondering this was a riot.

 

Equally as funny: Morgan's tribal council question to Tony.  I was laughing so hard at that one.  "You controlled the men... and you did it without boobs?!"  LOL!

 

Trish's question to Tony was unexpected, but very moving to me.  It humanized the whole Survivor process for me.  It's easy for us sitting at home to write off a player like Tony's lies by saying "It's just a game".  It's another thing entirely when you are the person in the game itself being lied to by someone swearing on their father's grave.  It explains where juries in prior seasons that chose not to reward such behavior are coming from.  Those juries are typically labelled as bitter for failing to reward strategic play, but Trish's question showed how big, unnecessary lies can hurt beyond the game and cost a player votes.  Great job, Trish.

 

The editors did a fantastic job with the FTC.  When Woo took Tony, I thought there's no way in hell Woo could win.  They edited that FTC so well that I actually thought Woo might stand a chance.  I don't know if it was just the editing, but from what we saw I thought Tony answered most of the questions posed to him poorly.  He didn't seem like he stuck up for his game or owned it.  His answer to Jefra's question was particularly awful from what we saw.  She TOLD him she just wanted him to own his game and admit that he backstabbed her, and he still tried to make excuses and deflect instead.  I suspect that the editing had something to do with it, because it appears Jefra ended up voting for Tony anyway so maybe he did eventually own his game and we simply weren't shown that part of his answer.

Edited by me5671
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Survivor is like a low-budget horror flick, the kind where you're yelling "No, don't go in there!" at the the young heroine about to go looking for her boyfriend inside the haunted insane asylum at midnight -- but she does it anyway.   Every time there were two possible outcomes in tonight's ep, it broke the way I wish it hadn't.   In fact, I predicted the entire episode merely by viewing it through a prism of "what don't I want to happen?"

 

I call bullshit on Survivor and Jeff Probst for their complicity in Tony's lie about the special immunity idol.   It was patently unfair that Tony was allowed to set the rules of the game (lies though they were) when the other players had no means of verifying the truth or accuracy of his claims.   It wasn't a lie about another player, not a he-said or she-said lie.   It was a lie about the rules.   Probst personally helped Tony perpetuate the lie by failing to announce at the final five tribal council that it was the last time any immunity idol could be used.   When an interviewer from Entertainment Weekly pointed out to Probst that he omitted that announcement, Probst's reply was a coy "Hmm?  Did I?"

 

I literally walked out of the room in the middle of Spencer's Clarence Darrow moment and didn't watch the remainder of the show.  A jury member should not be allowed to make a final summation on behalf of one finalist.   Juries do not ADVOCATE.   It was grossly inappropriate, self-serving and insulting to everyone who had just spoken.   Spencer doesn't give a rat's ass about the show's integrity.   He wanted to stick it to Woo, and boy did he.   I think it differs from previous exhortations in that it wasn't generalized speechifying -- Spencer turned right to the jury and told them how they should vote.    Wrong on all levels.


Finally, I think Mr. Miagi would have slapped Woo upside the head for taking Tony.

Edited by millennium
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I think it was Spencer who called Kass a "brain dead weasel." Considering he spent all 37 of his days with her, I'd like to think he had a point.

 

Exciting season with an unlikely ending. Dunno about the fates of the souls of Tony's loved ones, though . . . could he use the money to buy them back from possible damnation? Then again, it did work for him . . . he came to within one pity vote from getting a clean sweep, and this came after he was reamed out for his gameplay by jury members. I guess that I was expecting less of a blowout than 8-1.

 

ETA: If Sue Hawk can try and get people to vote for Richard, re: "Rats v. Snakes," I have no problem with Spencer speaking for Tony. And he was right . . . Tony hustled his ass off to get to Day 39, which was what I was saying in that other forum.

Edited by Lantern7
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Some things might have irritated me less had the season not been skewed towards Tony from the very start. 

 

They identified him as the season's "character" and made it all about him.

 

I still suspect the show of having a hand in Tony finding so many immunity idols.

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Some things might have irritated me less had the season not been skewed towards Tony from the very start. 

 

They identified him as the season's "character" and made it all about him.

 

I still suspect the show of having a hand in Tony finding so many immunity idols.

Of course they do.  They are making a TV show.  First and foremost, the concern is about ratings.  They edit in order to ensure the best story possible that will bring in the best ratings possible.  It would be naive for the audience to think that they don't also manipulate things on the island to push for characters and storiesthat would be interesting on screen.  They aren't going to admit to this because, again, ratings.  We want the illusion of a perfectly fair game but we also have to remember that this is a tv show on a for profit network.  

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Whenever I hear someone saying they swear on their [insert relative's life/grave here] I automatically assume they're bullshitting. What are these people, twelve years old? It's like starting a sentence with "to tell you the truth" or "honestly." Discount the rest of the statement 99% or more.

 

Spencer is awesome for being the only one to figure out the final two AND immediately seeing the ramifications. And I love him even more for cutting the "you LIED to me!' crap at the jury and 1) eviscerating Woo and 2) telling the rest of the jury to stop whining and vote for the best player. they probably would have voted for Tony anyway, but it was bracing.

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Well, at least it's over.

 

We want the illusion of a perfectly fair game but we also have to remember that this is a tv show on a for profit network.

 

The "players" are credited on the recorded episodes as "actors".   Just sayin'.

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I call bullshit on Survivor and Jeff Probst for their complicity in Tony's lie about the special immunity idol.

Oh Jesus, I'm so right there with you.  I'm curious - has there even been any other time where players were deliberately kept in the dark about actual rules?  Is there any chance at all that none of the other contestants asked off camera about the SHII and (apparently) were not told the truth?  Such a huge steaming pile of Grade-A bullshit.

I literally walked out of the room in the middle of Spencer's Clarence Darrow moment and didn't watch the remainder of the show.

The fact that Spencer did this at FTC (he could have aired his opinions privately back at Ponderosa) and that this made the edit - pretty sure this was Spencer's ticket to a return invite.  I'm not wholly convinced that he changed anyone's mind but I think the producers were taking no chances.  Just another part of the 'pave the way for Tony' campaign.  I actually don't mind that Tony won but the shenanigans they used to insure it were simply absurd.

Finally, I think Mr. Miagi would have slapped Woo upside the head for taking Tony.

 

I'm an old-school budo guy myself, and when I play poker with my friends I fess up when my cards are bad because deceiving them would be untrue and dishonorable.  Oh wait, no I don't - it's a fucking game, not a testament to my character or my art.  You, Woo, are a dumbass.

Edited by henripootel
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If there's one thing that makes me insane is the total horror over "But you swore on your...". Please. It's a game. Anything is up for grabs. People who play with a real life mentality in Survivor don't get it. Game face, game play, and leave your real life at the door. I mean what's supposed to happen - Tony's dad rises from the grave and dies again? He's happily playing bocce on a fucking cloud and gets propelled into the fiery pits of hell? Jesus, melodrama much? If this were in every day life, maybe. But Survivor is not that. Tony played emotionally into Sarah's head and she fell for it. If she had played like a player and not as a a representative of her real life she could have been sitting in the end, but she couldn't distinguish between the two. It's not about integrity or any of that. It's about playing the game, playing it well, and that means telling people what they want to hear. And if they're dumb enough to believe you then they deserve the boot. Tony played a messy, chaotic game, but absolutely he deserved the win.

Edited by Shock Corridor
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Couple of questions.

Did Sarah vote for Woo?  She seemed to be the only one still carrying a huge grudge despite the other jurors' vitriol.

 

Regarding Tony's lie about the SHII.  Couldn't any of the others have asked Probst how long it was valid?  I don't blame Tony for trying to fool the rest of the players or for Probst not pointing out that it was no longer good since Spencer could have asked at F4 but didn't.  Things might have turned out very differently had he done so.

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Did Sarah vote for Woo?

No. Woo got only one vote; Tasha's, which we saw inside the voting booth. If Woo'd received any more than that, we would have seen Jeff read them to stretch out the drama.

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Really?  I thought Tasha of all people would reward Tony's game play.  Wow.

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I was confused by Tasha's vote, too.  A few TCs ago, Spencer told everyone he would vote for Tony if Tony made it to the end and Tasha nodded in agreement.  I wonder what changed her mind. 

 

As much as I enjoyed having all-new players and very little show hijinks, (fucking Tyler Perry Idol notwithstanding), I'm actually glad this season is over. 

Edited by Boo
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Some things might have irritated me less had the season not been skewed towards Tony from the very start.

They identified him as the season's "character" and made it all about him.

I still suspect the show of having a hand in Tony finding so many immunity idols.

 

Of course they do.  They are making a TV show.  First and foremost, the concern is about ratings.  They edit in order to ensure the best story possible that will bring in the best ratings possible.  It would be naive for the audience to think that they don't also manipulate things on the island to push for characters and storiesthat would be interesting on screen.  They aren't going to admit to this because, again, ratings.  We want the illusion of a perfectly fair game but we also have to remember that this is a tv show on a for profit network.  

They edit the whole season, knowing already the outcome. Obviously, they cast Tony because he is garrulous and colorful. And once the jury votes were in, they could edit his storyline with that ending in mind. Legally, of course, they're not allowed to change things around, etc., to favor one player (that's not to say they don't). But with the hundreds of hours of footage, they could create any number of storylines without resorting to those kinds of shenanigans.

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I agree with Lantern7 above, that really felt like a pity vote.  (Plus, I suspect that Tasha didn't feel that Tony "deserved" to be on the list of "Unanimous Winners.")

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The season was exciting until Spencer lost the immunity challenge.  It was still interesting to see how it would play out, but then Kass lost.  Woo finally showed some personality but I guess he didn't want the million dollars enough . . . I can see his point for real life, his real relationships, his real job, but in playing a game like Survivor in such an artificial situation . . . I don't know.  I think Spencer may have won it for Tony. Maybe the others would have voted for him, but Trish and Jefra seemed pretty mad. 

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I literally walked out of the room in the middle of Spencer's Clarence Darrow moment and didn't watch the remainder of the show.  A jury member should not be allowed to make a final summation on behalf of one finalist.   Juries do not ADVOCATE.   It was grossly inappropriate, self-serving and insulting to everyone who had just spoken.   Spencer doesn't give a rat's ass about the show's integrity.   He wanted to stick it to Woo, and boy did he.   I think it differs from previous exhortations in that it wasn't generalized speechifying -- Spencer turned right to the jury and told them how they should vote.    Wrong on all levels.

 

 

As others noted, Spencer was hardly the first person to ever do this. Sue going all the way back to the first season spoke to the jury with her rats and snakes speech and told the jury members to let it be as nature intended and let the snake eat the rat, i.e. give Richard the win. David in Redemption Island basically did exactly as Spencer did, not even bothering to ask any of the finalists a question and telling the jury that he would be speaking to them. And he proceeded to give a minute and a half speech of how Rob basically owned the game from beginning to end and the two people next to him were only there because he controlled that too. 

 

So I have to disagree that there's some big rule against this or it's unfair or that Jeff and company did something wrong. As far as I can tell, the final tribal council is for the jury to say things they've been waiting to and address the finalists. But there have been many jury members who have never asked any questions to the finalists and that gets accepted. Lex just railed and ranted on about how evil Rob was and that was it. So in my opinion, there's no rule on how the jury member uses their time. Some ask questions, some rant about how much better of a person they were than the finalists which is why they ended up in the jury (translation, they got outplayed and are bitter about it) and some basically say to other jury members "shut up, get over it, you were outplayed, now suck it up and vote for the person who outplayed you..." Even Shii-Ann took a moment in All-Stars where she turned to the jury members and said, "let's be honest here, people in glass houses should not throw stones" meaning that a bunch of them were being bitter hypocrites. 

 

I didn't have a problem with Spencer's comment and I honestly don't think "production" put him up to it (but then again I don't sit around seeing multiple conspiracy theories all over the place with this show. In my opinion, if the show was really manipulating things with the idols, Spencer would have either found the special one or picked the black rock because at the end of the day these people are interested in producing an entertainment show and they clearly edited a Spencer vs. Tony/Samson and Goliath battle and that would have made it a much more interesting battle)  or that he did it because he hates Woo or wanted to stick it to him. I do think that yes, Spencer didn't think Woo played a good Survivor game and that he doesn't think he's very bright. But I don't think he dislikes or even hates him for that, he just thought that because of those things he didn't deserve to win the game. Others may disagree. 

 

Frankly, the other reason I appreciated Spencer's comment is because I was getting irritated by the verbal thrashing Tony was taking. Miss Kentucky needed to take several seats in my opinion. Her ass barely did shit other than follow LJ and later Trish and she made it much farther than she would have only because Trish and Tony decided to dump Cliff and keep her and LJ around. But the thing that annoys me about bitter juries like these is because a lot of the time, they allowed the person they're so angry at to get as far as they did. Spencer told them at tribal when there was enough numbers and time to do something that if Tony gets to the end, he wins.

 

They all decided to ignore it and passively sit by, sticking with their numbers and remaining comfortable with that and when they all eventually ended right where he told them they would, they want to be bitter? When if they had tried to play the game as hard as Tony did, they could have taken him out? Tony blindsided LJ, perfect time to get a clue and they did nothing, then he blindsided Jefra but again, they still stood around being loyal. Trish kept telling herself she was his number one even though he betrayed everyone else. (I will say Tony miscalculated on writing Trish's name. He knew she was going that night; that Spencer, Woo and Kass were all voting for her which was enough votes to get her out. He should have just thrown his vote away on Kass so he could have honestly made the argument to her that he never voted for her.) 

 

It's the same thing with All-Stars where those idiots had multiple opportunities to get Rob out or at least weaken his game but they all blindly stood by convincing themselves he'd bring them to the end where they could beat him and when he basically got them before they could get him, they wanted to be all bitter and indignant. It's ridiculous. 

 

Yeah, I didn't get her vote either. She's a remarkably rational player but that vote feels like an emotional one.

 

 

Tasha acted oddly at the final tribal council. Her reaction after Woo answered her question made it clear she wanted to ask something else or was unsure about something but maybe didn't know how to ask so instead she just kind of awkwardly went, "okay I guess I'm done..."

Edited by truthaboutluv
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Tasha asked Woo to articulate (something) and he then proceeded to stammer his way through an "answer," repeating himself at least three times.  I kind of took her end response as, "that's your version of articulating an answer?"

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WTF with Morgan's "Beauty & Boobs" speech??  She self-congratulates herself for being on the "Beauty" tribe (like DUH, totes obvs I belonged there!) and can't fathom how Tony, a MAN!! without BOOOBS!!!! could make men follow him.  Do you think she knows those gigantic knockers of her are subject to gravity and that she will eventually need to rely on 'words' and 'thoughts' to communicate with men?

 

If they insist on bringing back players in the future I want to see Tasha & Spencer, but not Tony.  Ever.

* And keep the number of HII down to one per tribe - once it's used, it's retired not re-hidden

* And hide them to a degree of difficulty that my 4 year old couldn't find them

* And ban the Tyler Perry Idol...and Tyler Effin' Perry

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I'm assuming that the next Blood vs Water will include used contestants, just like the last one did.  So which one of this cast will be included in the next season, I wonder.  Hope it's Tasha, or even Trish -- and BTW, didn't Trish look great now that she's had a few burgers?  Spencer might be a good choice too.  Just as long as it's not the Hantzes.

 

Liked Kass better tonight than I have all season.  Seeing a softer side of her helped make her more 3D.  But she really needs to be right all the time, doesn't she?  I was very amused when, at the reunion, Jeff asked who would have chosen Woo over Kass.  Everyone raised their hands and there she was, nodding maniacally, saying See, Woo, I told you.  Yeah, Kass.  You told us you would have won.  You told us that over and over again every day.  Your strategy was to get to the end with one of the Brawns because you would beat him.  You wouldn't have beaten anyone.  So please, shut up now.

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Tony got way too much credit for the players. They kept asking him what he did to keep his alliance together and neglecting the fact that these people stayed with Tony not because of some special skill on his part, but either because of Trish (which she did point out) or because it was the best move for them. It was either staying with him or going with Spencer and Tasha, who nobody could beat in the end. 

 

This has been a really great season, but it's not because of good gameplay. It's because the gameplay was pretty bad in most instances. Kind of like how Probst thought Ciera was a really exciting player. That wasn't because she was a good player, it's because she made moves, but those moves ended up being pretty bad.

 

At first I thought Morgan's jury speech was her trying to make a joke about herself, since it's pretty obvious why she was cast on the show and what her role was this season. After thinking about it some more, it was pretty gross. Of course she thinks the only way to get a man in her back pocket is with breasts. Not through personality or humour or common interests. Nope, all boobs all the time.

 

Jefra started off her speech with "I'm not bitter" and then launched into one of the most bitter speeches from that jury. Jeremiah was surprisingly bitter too. Tony never lied or betrayed him. They were never allied, from what I can remember. Maybe the Beauty tribe realized how boring they were all season and decided to make up for it at tribal?

 

LJ's speech was pretty funny because it totally exemplified his whole game and relationship with Tony. He was like "finally I get to speak". Then he asks Tony a question, which Tony proceeds to answer in his usual mania-induced way and then LJ just backs down and is like "okay, whatever you say". Good for him though because I really did think he was going to bitter. Someone should have pointed out that Tony wasn't truthful when he kept saying the only person he broke a promise to was Trish. He broke his promise with LJ who, unlike Jefra, was not trying to vote him out.

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I don't think Jeff or TPTB are under any obligation to call Tony out on his SHII lie (or any other idol BS like a homemade idol [HHII?]) until it is put into play.  It was never put into play.

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I loved Woo saying "Do we ... fight for it?!" about a tie at Final 4.

 

I didn't love Woo's inability to articulate a game plan (I know, I know - it didn't exist). You're in a weak position, sure, but you have to try to make some sort of argument that might swing a vote or two. I think he should have said, "Look, I know you think I hung onto Tony and got pulled here without doing anything on my own. And guess what? You wish you had been able to do the same thing. I was the only person that Tony had enough trust in not to take out. Invoking that kind of trust in this game isn't easy."

 

I was torn between being glad I didn't have to listen to Kass argue at final and wishing that she'd been there and not gotten a single vote. But in the end, I think this way was best because with the other scenario she just would have rationalized that Tony was rewarded for his game play because he was a man. Kass's insistence that she was playing rationally and Tony was playing emotionally was laughably delusional. I think Spencer was the only one who was playing completely rationally.

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I think people disregarded Trish's clean up after each of Tony's blindsides. Trish held the alliance together which is why Tony and Woo needed her gone. I have heard Tony say that in interviews and I suspect he would have told Trish that if she had allowed him to give the answer he wanted to when she addressed him at Tribal.

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This is the most bitter jury I've ever seen that didn't vote bitterly. 

 

With the exception of Spencer, who made it clear that his vote wouldn't be for Woo, it almost seemed like they told the jurors to attack whichever person they were going to vote for.

 

  • Trish Skeletor'd it up and accused Tony of sacrificing his father's soul in order to make some money.  She voted for Tony.
  • Jefra started her question with 'I'm not bitter' then quickly turned bitter, with Tony incurring all wrath.  She voted for Tony.
  • Jeremiah called Tony of being a total piece of crap who commits the cardinal sin of lying while swearing a wife/child.  He voted for Tony. 
  • Morgan praised Woo for not selecting the obvious goat and taking the better player to the end, promising not to forget that. She voted for Tony.
  • Tash asked Woo a question, he said he was going to go off-topic, and she scooted back to her bench hysterically as if he had just answered in Mandarin.  She voted for Woo.
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Does anybody else miss the "Fallen Comrades" bit? Yeah, it's a time-waster, but so were Probst's cut-ins that gave us so little.

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Regarding Tony's lie about the SHII.  Couldn't any of the others have asked Probst how long it was valid?  I don't blame Tony for trying to fool the rest of the players or for Probst not pointing out that it was no longer good since Spencer could have asked at F4 but didn't.  Things might have turned out very differently had he done so.

This times a thousand! I kept yelling at my screen, ASK PROBST HOW LONG THAT THING IS PLAYABLE!  But no, even though those dumbasses talked about whether or not it was still usable, nobody asks the one person who would probably have had to give them a straight answer. They all deserved to lose to Tony, not because Tony was such a stellar player, but because the rest of them were so fucking dumb. Just about every person who was going to blindside Tony backed down at the last minute so they have nobody to blame but themselves for losing.  I honestly loathed Tony, I hope to never ever see him on another Survivor, but I would have grudgingly voted for him too, just because the others played so incredibly stupidly.

 

Oh, and Woo? Duuuude, you're an idiot.

 

Kass, you kept me liking, then disliking you. But in the end you were indeed a solid player and you did deserve to go to the end.

 

ETA: They need to never ever do that live alternating with the final epi crap again. It was stupid, superfluous, added nothing other than distract us from the final episode, and I don't give a rat's ass about Tyler Perry and his dumb super fan ideas.  Just, no.

Edited by gingerella
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I kept yelling at my screen, ASK PROBST HOW LONG THAT THING IS PLAYABLE!  But no, even though those dumbasses talked about whether or not it was still usable, nobody asks the one person who would probably have had to give them a straight answer.

 

My take on this is fans of the game know that Probst announces at the last tribal wherein you can use an immunity idol, that this is the last time you can use an immunity idol. In any other season, do you remember a player asking Probst if an idol can be used now? I can't. And I've watched since the beginning. (But I also don't claim to remember a lot of detail, either!)

 

So by not stating it, players assume it is in play. After all, it had special powers. One must of been that it could be played later. Omission changed the course of that play. I found it interesting that Tony said anything about it at all. Why should he? When he didn't hand it in after the vote, they may have wondered. But why speak up like that? The only two things I can think of was that 1) he wanted to make himself look like a good devious player (look, I fooled you!) and 2) PTB wanted him to cover their behinds (not that I believe that it did).

 

Imagine playing checkers. One piece jumps another, you keep jumping until you can't. Got it. All of a sudden, your opponent says 'King me' because I landed there. Then proceeds to move all directions. What? Nobody told you. Too bad, so sad. You should have asked.      Nope, don't think so. Basic rules need to be outlined before, and occasionally, reminded. JMO

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Yeah, I didn't get her vote either. She's a remarkably rational player but that vote feels like an emotional one.

 

 

I agree with Lantern7 above, that really felt like a pity vote.  (Plus, I suspect that Tasha didn't feel that Tony "deserved" to be on the list of "Unanimous Winners.")

 

This was the impression I got. Because after all, if Tony got the clean sweep, then the argument of 'Greatest Player' automatically must include his name. Thank goodness.

 

Mind you, if not a pity vote, I don't understand it. Wish we had heard her comment when revealing the vote (if she said anything; all we got was a tiny smile from her). I would have expected a Woo vote from Sarah or Jefra, this was from way left field.

 

* And ban the Tyler Perry Idol...and Tyler Effin' Perry

 

Dear Lord, please end this fiasco. We do not need Tyler Perry's Survivor next season. Someone hack into Probst's cell phone and delete that number.

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Woo finally showed some personality but I guess he didn't want the million dollars enough . . . I can see his point for real life, his real relationships, his real job, but in playing a game like Survivor in such an artificial situation . . . I don't know.

 

I think this may have made more sense if he had ever spoken about his "5 principles" guiding of game actions some time before the finally. "I might not have done much but I kept my mind in balance with my spirit" is not much of a platform for the jury to grab onto and award. Nobody but Woo knew he had this supposed guiding light through the moral quagmire that is Survivor. Maybe more people would have given him credit for it had they known about it before FTC.

 

As for Spencer making Tony's closing argument for him, the only thing governing that has been that Probst always says "You can ask a question or make a comment." This just happened to be a more detailed comment than most. Play on!

 

Also in case people didn't catch it in other threads Probst has promised no returners the next two seasons, so that includes and all new cast for BvW.

 

Oh and ETA yeah it also sucked they did no "Fallen Comrades" torch burning this year... I guess the editors were too tired of editing Tony to work on clips about the other players to show during the "ceremony". And yeah the little snippets only worked against the flow of the show and if the decision was to do Fallen Comrades or these stupid look-ins they, like Woo, made the wrong choice.

Edited by Wandering Snark

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Oh Jesus, I'm so right there with you.  I'm curious - has there even been any other time where players were deliberately kept in the dark about actual rules?  Is there any chance at all that none of the other contestants asked off camera about the SHII and (apparently) were not told the truth?  Such a huge steaming pile of Grade-A bullshit.

The fact that Spencer did this at FTC (he could have aired his opinions privately back at Ponderosa) and that this made the edit - pretty sure this was Spencer's ticket to a return invite.  I'm not wholly convinced that he changed anyone's mind but I think the producers were taking no chances.  Just another part of the 'pave the way for Tony' campaign.  I actually don't mind that Tony won but the shenanigans they used to insure it were simply absurd.

I'm an old-school budo guy myself, and when I play poker with my friends I fess up when my cards are bad because deceiving them would be untrue and dishonorable.  Oh wait, no I don't - it's a fucking game, not a testament to my character or my art.  You, Woo, are a dumbass.

 

 

I don't think Jeff or TPTB are under any obligation to call Tony out on his SHII lie (or any other idol BS like a homemade idol [HHII?]) until it is put into play.  It was never put into play.

 

Since the hidden immunity idol has been in play (Survivor 11), Jeff has always said when the last day was to play it. (Which has always been Final 5. There is one part that makes me want to say that Terry (Survivor 12) and Yul (Survivor 13) could play it at Final 4, but that doesn't seem right - and regardless - that's not the point). The point is - it's not calling out the bluff, it's not pointing out that the HII is a homemade fake. But the players from Season 11 on has known the last day to play it, and it would have changed the game, because I think Spencer/Woo/Kass votes for Tony or at least force a tie. Spencer/Kass's face said it all. 

 

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I thought Morgan's "you kept men in your pocket, and you did it without boobs" was hilarious, and I think she meant it to be.  I didn't get the impression that she was being serious at all, but rather was making a joke. 

 

I'm still so mad about that stupid TP idol, but my anger has faded a bit now that it didn't get used.  Do we know for sure that no one asked if it could be used at F4?  If they really thought it could be, or maybe could be, used, I think we would have seen some discussion b/t Kass/ Spencer/ Woo about it.  Like, do we take the chance and vote him out, see what happens?  But we didn't see any of that strategizing, and so I figured they knew it couldn't be used.  Also, no one seemed surprised when Tony announced it at Tribal.

 

I think that everyone knew that if Spencer went to F2, he would win, and that Kass thought she had a legitimate chance to win against Tony (wrong) or Woo (apparently, also wrong!), and so there was no way they were letting Spencer get anywhere near the finals.  Spencer was more dangerous than Tony, and so they had to get him out at F4, which is why we saw no discussion about getting rid of Tony at that point. 

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My take on this is fans of the game know that Probst announces at the last tribal wherein you can use an immunity idol, that this is the last time you can use an immunity idol. In any other season, do you remember a player asking Probst if an idol can be used now? I can't. And I've watched since the beginning. (But I also don't claim to remember a lot of detail, either!)

So by not stating it, players assume it is in play

 

Then let this be a lesson to future players.  When a lying liar who lies tells you something, double check it with Probst.

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So by not stating it, players assume it is in play.

Well you know what they say about assume, so, yeah...There is no known reason that they couldn't have asked about the last TC to use any HIIs.  They're just stupid.

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Then let this be a lesson to future players.  When a lying liar who lies tells you something, double check it with Probst.

I'm willing to bet long odds that somebody did.  If so, they weren't told the answer, which they damn well should have been.  For my money, this would be the point where the producers moved from, let's be nice, 'active encouragement' of Tony, and on to outright collusion.  I'm having trouble parsing this as anything other than hobbling the other contestants for Tony's benefit.

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I got plenty enough Jeff Probst awkwardness from the live bits, and didn't watch the reunion, so if I say something that contradicts something there, forgive me.

 

It would be naive for the audience to think that they don't also manipulate things on the island to push for characters and storiesthat would be interesting on screen.  They aren't going to admit to this because, again, ratings.  We want the illusion of a perfectly fair game but we also have to remember that this is a tv show on a for profit network.  

 

Ah yes, this explains why Kim, who Jeff and 99% of the Survivor-watching audience thinks is boring, took it home!  I guess I'm naive in thinking that they don't need to do anything but fuck with the editing to get what they want.

 

 

Miss Kentucky needed to take several seats in my opinion.

 

What are you going to do with yourself now that there's no Jefra to hate?  (I tease because I agree with pretty much everything else you wrote.)

 

I guess once again I'm a tribe of one like Kass, because I thought Woo did quite well in his answers, considering.  (Of course taking Tony was insane, but once he'd done that I think he did alright.)  I think Tasha's vote might have been a pity vote, but on the other hand I think he answered her question very credibly.  Why ally with Tony so strongly?  Because I was on the outs with my new tribe and alliance and found out once they blindsided Cliff, so I needed to get in tight as possible with the leader of the tribe.  Makes perfect sense to me.

 

I also think the jury was perfectly fine.  Some of them were mad at Tony, but they all knew he'd played the better game, and voted for him.  Sarah, Trish, LJ, Jefra, Jeremiah, all voted for him.  What's wrong with making him sweat for it a little?  I was really glad to hear Trish lay it out that she had played much of Tony's game for him; I guess if I had one question about her game it was whether she knew what she was doing, or if it was just natural, and she answered it for me.  I think she's an amazing Survivor player.  And I think she wanted him to say yes to her question.  I certainly would; I know my parents would prefer me to provide for my family rather than whatever it is that breaking a promise "on" them is supposed to do.

 

I found Spencer annoying as always but he did try his damnedest and I think his argument to Tony was novel.  Has anyone done that before?  "I'm more of a threat, so keep me as a shield"?  His line about "I will take you to F2 and forfeit" was too obviously bullshit, though, Spencer is annoying, but he's not a disgrace, and that would be a disgrace.  His sister looks just like him!

 

I do think Probst should have said when it was the last chance to play the idol, as he always has, and as we saw with Spencer deducing the F2, these players are Survivor fans who are parsing everything he says.  But far better would have been to not include the bullshit idol in the first place.

 

 

Oh deer gahd, I thought Probst was heading toward there being a kids Survivor when talking to all those kids. Not that they could get cleared to leave kids out in the wilderness that long... right?? Right?!? *shudders*

 

There was in fact a kid's version of Survivor called ENDURANCE on Discovery or something.  I've only seen one episode and it seemed far more random and chance-based than Survivor, so I don't think there could be much in the way of strategizing, but as a character piece it was pretty amazing.  Imagine if power in Survivor was based entirely on middle-school popularity, and you've got a good idea of what it seemed like to me.

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Ah yes, this explains why Kim, who Jeff and 99% of the Survivor-watching audience thinks is boring, took it home!  I guess I'm naive in thinking that they don't need to do anything but fuck with the editing to get what they want.

 

It would be equally naive for the audience to think that there is zero chance for a cast to simply be a dud.  One World did not have any stand out characters, save for Colton, and he was just a nasty human.  The cast needs chemistry and the chemistry simply wasn't there with One World.  That doesn't mean Kim didn't deserve it.  She was incredibly dominating throughout the game and likely would have gone far no matter what season she was placed in.  

 

Manipulating things on set to get the story doesn't mean that it's always going to be the story they hope to get.  It's pretty obvious that it was a deliberate decision not to mention the idol thing.  If Tony hadn't kept up the ruse on his own end, not mentioning the last chance to use idols would have been a useless bit of production manipulation because it wouldn't have gone anywhere.  Subtle manipulation of the game also occurs with things like the cast commentary videos.  The cast isn't just sitting there saying whatever they want.  They are being asked questions, usually pointed questions.  An example (emphasis on example, I'm not implying that this was definitely a pointed question during an interview) is a crew member asking Tony about Woo's loyalty and Tony discussing it and then realizing it's a perfect thing to use to get Woo to take him to the end.  Perhaps Tony wouldn't have thought of it or didn't even realize it, but the crew would know based on Woo's video blogs.  It doesn't always work out, obviously, which is why we get One World seasons.

 

The game is as fair as it can possibly be, but it's first and foremost  a TV show invested in remaining a TV show.  They can't have many One Worlds and hope to remain on TV.  This isn't Borneo where everything was fresh and exciting and they could rely on it being just completely different from anything that's ever been on TV.  Casting is more important than ever because there aren't too many new elements that can be introduced without changing the entire game.  The cast needs to have the right sort of chemistry to ensure the best possible entertainment.  For example, you have a Tony in the tribe, you also need a Trish because a Tony doesn't last long without a Trish.  You have a Morgan, you need a Kass because you don't get the Morgan comments without a Kass.  Etc.  But the crew also needs to do their part to make sure they are able to even capture stories worthy of an entertaining edit.  After all these years, the audience must be aware that there is subtle manipulation going on behind the scenes. This is just the nature of competitive reality shows.  

 

Again, it doesn't always work out well.  There are so many things that need to align perfectly for it to be a truly successful season.  

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I think for every cast they get it right on and can fill in a season's worth of watchable entertainment, like this year, they probably get a few years grace before they are considered for cancellation... the show's been up and down a lot but it always comes back no matter what the previous season was like or how successful it was.

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Spencer wasn't offering to forfeit if he ended up in the finals with Tony. He was saying if he took Kass over Tony he would forfeit. Spencer knew he would beat Tony so he had no reason to not take him.

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What are you going to do with yourself now that there's no Jefra to hate?

 

 

I never hated or even disliked Jefra to be honest. I just thought she was bland and not a great player. But I was honestly taken aback by her attitude at the final tribal council. She came across as incredibly entitled when she had no reason to be and then she made no sense. She kept screeching at Tony to own his game and when he did, stating why he blindsided her she just kept interrupting and screaming louder for him to "own his game". Like wtf?

 

I know people rag on Morgan and her boobs comment (and I'm with some who aren't entirely convinced she wasn't just trying to be funny) but at least she wasn't raging at Tony and then she followed it up by letting Woo know she respected his taking what was not the obvious and easier choice with Kass. I thought that was very sweet of her. Granted it did give her a chance to take a dig at Kass so I'm sure Woo appreciated the sentiment.

Edited by truthaboutluv
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System Remote, I agree with all that (except I like One World and think any cast with Kim in it is automatically a good cast), but it seemed above you were saying they gave Tony idols, or lead him to them, and that I can't agree with.  Doesn't even make sense from a producer manipulation standpoint.

 

 

Spencer wasn't offering to forfeit if he ended up in the finals with Tony. He was saying if he took Kass over Tony he would forfeit. Spencer knew he would beat Tony so he had no reason to not take him.

 

Oh!  I totally misheard him.  I still doubt very much that he would take Tony; why risk it, even if he feels like he could win against him?  That would be a crazy roll of the dice when he has a sure thing in Kass.

Edited by KimberStormer

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There was in fact a kid's version of Survivor called ENDURANCE on Discovery or something.  I've only seen one episode and it seemed far more random and chance-based than Survivor, so I don't think there could be much in the way of strategizing, but as a character piece it was pretty amazing.  Imagine if power in Survivor was based entirely on middle-school popularity, and you've got a good idea of what it seemed like to me.

 

You mean, it's not?

And the kids' Survivor isn't that new a concept, either.  Have you ever read Lord of the Flies?

Edited by legaleagle53
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So Morgan considers keeping guys in her back pocket a skill, but this season the only guy she had in her back pocket was Brice. Maybe she needs to re-think things.

 

 

Casting is more important than ever because there aren't too many new elements that can be introduced without changing the entire game.  The cast needs to have the right sort of chemistry to ensure the best possible entertainment.  For example, you have a Tony in the tribe, you also need a Trish because a Tony doesn't last long without a Trish.  You have a Morgan, you need a Kass because you don't get the Morgan comments without a Kass.

That's definitely true about needing a balance. I feel like this season's cast was good, but when people are like "this was the best cast ever!!" I'm like...really? Almost all of the Beauty tribe turned out to be duds. They started off well, but then just sort of faded (which I'm sure would have been very hard to predict in casting). Is the bar for casting really set that low? I guess the expectation is usually that only a few (like 2-3) players will be at all interesting? If so, then the casting system needs serious improvement.

Edited by wudpixie
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