S02.E11: Holly

[Eureka]

Just watched today. DS liked it. I felt like I could do without some of the various labor scenes. They just felt repetitive and long, although I love Cherry Jones so was happy to see her again. Haven’t read anyone’s comments yet, going to now.

 

edited to add, I didn’t think Oprah was supposed to be herself. I thought she was just playing the role of a newscaster. Was I wrong about that?

Edited July 1, 2018 by Eureka

[Stiggs]

5 hours ago, Ashforth said:

I have so much love for actresses who age naturally instead of ending up as plastic surgeried, freakified versions of their former selves. Ann Dowd would still have her immense talent, but she would not have the impact she does as Aunt Lydia if her face was pulled tight, her lips plumped up, and there was that oh so disconcerting disconnect between the "young face" and "old neck" (sorry Lori Metcalf, I love you but...).

ETA: I understand the immense pressure that actresses and actors are under to look "young." I'm hoping to not be too judgmental, hell, I had upper and lower blepharoplasty myself because at a (relatively) young age, I looked exhausted all the time and wanted to look like myself again.

 

Ann Dowd played a pediatric oncologist on an episode of Law & Order a million years ago, and she made such an impact that after watching 40000 eps of L&O with 50000 different character actors, she is the one I remember most, along with David Harbour (Stranger Things). Examples of two actors who wouldn’t be nearly as awesome if they were slaves to vanity. (And for the record, I think Dowd looks lovely in real life and Hopper is a hunk, heh.) Dowd effing ROCKS.

I love that they used a Springsteen song - Thunder Road would have been my choice, but anything by The Boss. If friendly aliens invaded and asked what the US is/was like, I’d just give them Springsteen’s entire catalogue. 

I rewatched the Fred and Serena fight 3 times. Does that make me a bad person? Heh. This show. It’s not perfect but I look forward to it every week. 

Edited July 1, 2018 by Stiggs

[lezlers]

On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 6:29 AM, chocolatine said:

A newborn’s head and neck is very delicate. I’d be extremely concerned about killing or paralyzing the baby, but YMMV.

I think you have to pick your battles, here.  Lifetime of systematic rape and oppression and most likely death for trying to escape and definitely never seeing your child again vs. driving your newborn without a car seat to a safe place.   

Not too difficult a decision to make, in my opinion. 

Edited July 2, 2018 by lezlers

[chocolatine]

8 minutes ago, lezlers said:

I think you have to pick your battles, here.  Lifetime of systematic rape and oppression and most likely death for trying to escape and definitely never seeing your child again vs. driving your newborn without a car seat to a safe place.   

Not too difficult a decision to make, in my opinion. 

 

I already explained my reasoning several times upthread, and I'm not going to repeat myself again. Agree to disagree.

Edited July 2, 2018 by chocolatine

[mamadrama]

On 6/29/2018 at 7:52 PM, AnswersWanted said:

 

This post made me laugh and snort, so I thank you immensely. 

I also completely agree with you, the pacing is rather pathetic considering the source material contains so much information that they could easily utilize in every single episode, instead we see the same people going through the same motions almost like clockwork, torture, rape, kill, or rape, torture, kill, and then a mystical dog wolf shows up as if that will improve anything.

I'm finding it kind of sad that not even the mystical wolf dog helped. 

It's like they really are throwing everything and the kitchen sink on the screen and watching for what sticks. 

[mamadrama]

23 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

In 1993, I took advantage of an exchange program my college had and went to London for a Winter session course in Theater.  We had to read a bunch of plays in advance, then go to the theater ever night for two weeks, then have a two hour class discussion about the play and we had to keep a journal with our observations to be handed in at the end of the course. It was heaven!

I saw Alan Cumming performing as the MC in Cabaret and never forgot him.  He was that great.  I still remember him.  When he finally made his debut in the US markets, I went: "hey! it's that amazing guy from Cabaret!!"  He was just that awesome.

Theater is definitely a huge test for any actor.  The presence of the audience and the fact that you can't stop to do a second take surely do influence the level of emotion a person brings to the role.

 

I know I've said this before, but I will repeat it again, ha ha. It PAINS me that Joseph Fiennes is playing such a good asshat on this show. I am a huge, huge fan of his. Back around 20 years ago when I was a travel writer, I got to go to London and review the play "The Woman in Black*" (one of the most amazing stage productions I've ever seen-and with NO sets and no props) and he was one of the leads. Well, there were only 2 people in the play to begin with so... :-) I've seen him in a few other productions since then and have met him on several occasions. (I was once his tour guide when he visited my small university in Wales.) I've been saying for years that I wish he could get a part on a good TV show that would actually last (AHS was only one season with him) and now here we are and I can't stand him...

 

 

*The movie with Daniel Radcliffe wasn't BAD, but the play is oh-so-much better. Even without many actors, props, and background it's truly spooky. I jumped at one point. If anyone around you ever puts it on, you should try to watch it. I'm pretty sure Joe originated the part that Daniel played.

[AnswersWanted]

16 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

I'm finding it kind of sad that not even the mystical wolf dog helped. 

It's like they really are throwing everything and the kitchen sink on the screen and watching for what sticks. 

 

I know right?

Like come on, just go all the way and make the creature super aware and somehow it drags a sled over to June so that it can pull her across the frozen lake to freedom or maybe it uses its’ body heat to melt the ice holding the garage door closed.

If you’re going to somehow feel that it is momentous for your show to have a pivotal character impacted by a wild dog beast hybrid thing in the middle of nowhere that supposedly either is meant to signify inner strength or her mother’s presence or whatever it was supposed to do, then you need to be willing to go all the way for me, don’t pull “a majestic dog stares at June for a long time and then runs off, the end”. 

I totally agree, the show is just digging through every single pile of literary tricks imaginable and employing a lot them for no good reason, imo, and it just doesn’t make sense to me.

[marinw]

Someone upthread mentioned The Expanse. This show is the perfect THT therapy, as it shows so many women living their lives and contributing to the world(s) in so many various different ways.

Oprah! Rich and powerful American women were probably able to buy their way out of Gilead. Or Oprah was in Hawaii when the contential US became Gilead. Although  I am amused at the thought of Martha Stewart literally being a Martha. The greatest Martha ever. No Commander would be good enough for her.

Why was that house empty? It seemed like a perfectly nice house.

Edited July 2, 2018 by marinw

[mamadrama]

17 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

 

I know right?

Like come on, just go all the way and make the creature super aware and somehow it drags a sled over to June so that it can pull her across the frozen lake to freedom or maybe it uses its’ body heat to melt the ice holding the garage door closed.

If you’re going to somehow feel that it is momentous for your show to have a pivotal character impacted by a wild dog beast hybrid thing in the middle of nowhere that supposedly either is meant to signify inner strength or her mother’s presence or whatever it was supposed to do, then you need to be willing to go all the way for me, don’t pull “a majestic dog stares at June for a long time and then runs off, the end”. 

I totally agree, the show is just digging through every single pile of literary tricks imaginable and employing a lot them for no good reason, imo, and it just doesn’t make sense to me.

Ha ha, all good ideas! My 6-year-old said, "Just get on it and ride it to Canada like Mary and the donkey!" She was pretty pissed that they threw away a perfectly good wolf-centric storyline idea. 

[Medicine Crow]

46 minutes ago, marinw said:

Someone upthread mentioned The Expanse. This show is the perfect THT therapy, as it shows so many women living their lives and contributing to the world(s) in so many various different ways.

Oprah! Rich and powerful American women were probably able to buy their way out of Gilead. Or Oprah was in Hawaii when the content US became Gilead. Although  I am amused at the thought of Martha Stewart literally being a Martha. The greatest Martha ever. No Commander would be good enough for her.

Why was that house empty? It seemed like a perfectly nice house.

Maybe a "summer home"???

[AnswersWanted]

1 hour ago, mamadrama said:

Ha ha, all good ideas! My 6-year-old said, "Just get on it and ride it to Canada like Mary and the donkey!" She was pretty pissed that they threw away a perfectly good wolf-centric storyline idea. 

 

Ha! That’s awesome. Can we pay your daughter to write for the show next season? She sounds 10 times more aware than the current bunch.

I just had a thought, what if the wolf or wild dog or shape shifting chupacabra ,whatever it was, it could’ve attacked Fred and Serena.

I now have this vision in my head that right after June decided it wasn’t a good idea to shoot Fred and Serena and they leave the house, mystical hound could have suddenly appeared and leapt onto Fred, going for the jugular, mortally wounding him.

Serena begins to scream in terror and tries to fight it off, she manages to get the dog to run off as Fred now lies bleeding to death in the snow.

Hearing  the commotion, June runs downstairs and realizes that Fred is dying and Serena is frantically trying to stop the bleeding with her hands and dress, totally losing her shit.

June, still with gun in hand, makes the quick decision that it’s time to go big or go home, and the fuck she’s going back to that house of horrors.

With a steady aim, June fires a shot into the back of Serena’s head, killing her instantly.

June then walks up to her two rapists and slavers, Serena dead, Fred dying. 

While choking on his own blood, growing weaker and faint by the second, Fred is only able to look up at June while she looks at him and gives one of her famously smug smirks, speaking at him one last time to say: “that’s right, you fucking asshole, I guess I win after all. So, what’s the word score for ‘bye, bitch’?”.

With that, June goes for the keys to the SUV.

Starting the engine, she pauses momentarily, giving a nod to the blood soaked hound still standing by, ready to attack his crippled prey one last time, and then she drives away.

 I know that could have never happened but goddammit, if only. 

[dbro]

On 6/26/2018 at 11:17 PM, LittleRed84 said:

Well, I’m assuming they were heard... since the last scene shows headlights flashing across the room June was laying in- a car pulling up to the house? Right before she says the line “I tell. Therefore you are.” Headlights light up the room. 

...and I'm pretty sure I faintly heard a couple of car doors slam?

[Door]

I don't understand the writers. There are so very many directions this narrative could go in. There has been groundwork put down by Margaret Atwood they could easily follow and explore: The world reactions to Gilead, the Resistance, the network of Eyes, the misogyny, the American government - even tourism! The writers could pick up any of these things and run with them easily. And yet we have these episodes that include things completely made up that go NOWHERE. Why create new threads of story when there are still a thousand threads left dangling? Threads that leave questions the audience naturally wants answered? Threads that almost write themselves? It's not even a perspective issue because, while we are with June most of the time, the story has gone omniscient before, so staying in June's thoughts for the sake of fidelity to the novel POV isn't necessary. It bugs, 

[DuckyinKy]

10 hours ago, Medicine Crow said:

Why was that house empty? It seemed like a perfectly nice house.

I think I heard "lake house" maybe? And there was the picture sitting on the desk of the wife and Hannah, holding a fish.

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, Door said:

I don't understand the writers. There are so very many directions this narrative could go in. There has been groundwork put down by Margaret Atwood they could easily follow and explore: The world reactions to Gilead, the Resistance, the network of Eyes, the misogyny, the American government - even tourism! The writers could pick up any of these things and run with them easily. And yet we have these episodes that include things completely made up that go NOWHERE. Why create new threads of story when there are still a thousand threads left dangling? Threads that leave questions the audience naturally wants answered? Threads that almost write themselves? It's not even a perspective issue because, while we are with June most of the time, the story has gone omniscient before, so staying in June's thoughts for the sake of fidelity to the novel POV isn't necessary. It bugs, 

I agree.  

It's one reason I really liked the VOX review this week.  (link in the media thread)  If reviewers start calling them on this deliberate dragging of feet on any forward movement in the plot, and the misery tour, perhaps the writers will pick up the pace?

Still, it's getting nominated for awards again, and as long as that happens, I wonder if they will change.  They need to world build to make this show more palatable.  I don't mind that Gilead is shown as horrible and bleak, because Gilead IS horrible and bleak.  I don't care that they invent stories about how bleak that is either, but a little consistency would be nice, and overall story arcs should exist between one episode and the next!

• What happened after the bombing?  Hello!
• What happened after the Canadian trip? Hello again!  Where is the follow up on this show?
• June pleads with Lydia that Fred could hurt the baby.  Next episode, June provokes Fred and tells him it's not his child which, if anything, endangers the baby.  WTF?
• Tons of talk about Nick being in Mayday and the Eyes, but we never see him doing anything with either of those organizations!
• Canada is just more misery and PTSD, and except for one episode (which I loved) just more bleakness and flashbacks.  Canada especially is a place where this show could show some joy and the outside world reactions and actions.
• War talk constantly, but we don't know where the wars are, or how the rebels are doing, or if Guardians/US Military has defected in places.
• We see the (probably CIA) guy try to convince Serena to defect, more of him please, and while you are at it, at least show the USA in Alaska, you are filming in Canada, how hard could it possibly be?

I'm hoping the show-runner gets it together, because this show needs an overall re-thinking, and by next season.

4 hours ago, DuckyinKy said:

I think I heard "lake house" maybe? And there was the picture sitting on the desk of the wife and Hannah, holding a fish.

Yes, it's that commander's vacation house.

Another thing the writers haven't really bothered to address, how does money work there really?  What's the deal with the Commander's?  Do they rule by consensus or is someone in charge?

Very frustrating.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Umbelina

[Medicine Crow]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

• We see the (probably CIA) guy try to convince Serena to defect, more of him please

 

That CIA guy is Sam Jaeger who was one of my favourites on Parenthood.  More of him please!!!

[Umbelina]

23 minutes ago, Medicine Crow said:

That CIA guy is Sam Jaeger who was one of my favourites on Parenthood.  More of him please!!!

Yes, hopefully in the capital of the USA, Anchorage, with the new President.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Umbelina

[The Mighty Peanut]

53 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, hopefully in the capital of the USA, Anchorage, with the new President.

President Oprah. She sent the mystical black dog wolf totem spirit animal of protection.

[Token]

Well, that was.... stupid.  And boring.

I can't believe what has happened to what used to be my favourite show.  Now I can go weeks with it sitting on my PVR and I don't really care.

[watchTV]

On 6/27/2018 at 2:48 AM, Sader87 said:

Filler episode....sorry if that comes across as harsh but the story-line took, maybe, a half-step forward.

This is exactly how I felt. A lot of extended or pointless scenes. Like what was the point of showing the wolf over and over? Closed captioning shows it was growling. This isn't going well for season 2 with all the other nonsensical drama. The main one is the meeting with Hannah. Why remind your daughter of her past life that she can't go back to? It's unnecessary pain for a child.

It looks like Hulu took their hit show and just dropped the ball.

[Earlwoode]

On 6/27/2018 at 6:17 AM, mamadrama said:

My kids watch this with me and we were all pretty fed up by the end of the episode. It felt like more melodrama to us. Our favorite scene was the Waterfucks trying to out-delusion each other. 

I totally agree.  The birth scene was a huge yawn and boring.  I kept thinking: get on with it, we know what a birth is like.  Too long, too much and I had to turn down the volume as the grunting and groaning was grating.  Good job she didn’t shoot the Waterfords - she would have missed and given away her position.

And seriously, a wolf?  Besides, wolves hunt in packs - there should have been more of them around.  If you can believe a house that has cars coming and  going has wolves approaching it that close.

Is it never summer in Massachusetts?

[Umbelina]

I thought it was an abandoned dog before they said it was a wild dog on the "inside the episode."  I kept thinking, poor thing's probably starving.  Open up a few of those cans and feed him, he'd probably be thrilled to eat (what dog's aren't?) and loyal.

[Earlwoode]

On 6/27/2018 at 4:47 PM, Helena Dax said:

Right now there are people being massacred in several parts of the world, there are about 150 millions of slaves in Africa and Asia etc. and tbh, I don't see people in general losing their sleep over that. So maybe Gilead is being watched with the same indifference. 

There are always people being massacred somewhere, sometime in the world.  What, exactly do you suggest is done about the slaves in Africa and Asia?  Because, ya know, militarily interfering in other countries has really worked out well, hasn’t it?  Obviously, other countries might economically boycott Gilead but I doubt anyone would invade to change the regime. Why should they risk their people’s lives?

Edited July 3, 2018 by Earlwoode

[watchTV]

On 6/27/2018 at 5:35 PM, millennium said:

Big NO.   What an awful episode.   I don't value "Elisabeth Moss Grunts and Makes Faces" as good acting or good writing.   The only true performance in this episode came from the Waterfords, which was like "Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf?: Gilead Edition."   I would much rather watch a show about the Waterfords -- a true believer couple gradually realizes that the dystopia they helped to create is fucked at its core -- than this insipid and pointless Elizabeth Moss vanity project.  

June isn't even a likable character, either in her present Offred existence or Before.    I don't know what Luke and Moira saw in her.

One of the problems with the show is the extended scenes. People get the agony and suffering in 5 seconds. We don't need close ups of her face to go on and on. It's filler. I believe EM is a good actress and that was proven back on Mad Men. I also don't think someone deserves an award for nonsensical drama. But that may be more on the writers.

As for her character, June, it takes some special skill to make a supposedly sympathetic character unlikeable. I don't know what the writers were thinking. Fred and Serena can only be portrayed as monsters for so long. Viewers  are already expressing exhaustion from the prolong darkness of the show.

[AngelaHunter]

On 6/27/2018 at 1:27 AM, rideashire said:

I wonder why she didn't use the shovel to get some leverage under the door,

I was thinking the same thing, since I've done it myself when I returned home in winter and the power was out - no garage door opener. Anyone living in perpetual winter would know to do that.

This ep seemed like more than half filler to me. We trace June's every footstep over and over - inside, outside, up the stairs and down the stairs. Open cupboards in one room, then another.  Falling in the snow. Lying in the snow. Crying and crying for many minutes. I do think the overhead shots are cool, but are becoming overused. Flashbacks are overused as well, IMO. Long flashbacks in the middle of scenes of panic and desperation just kill the pacing and flow of what should be mounting suspense. Wolf (and it was clearly a wolf)? Okay, right.

I was tense in the shotgun scene, not knowing if she'd pull the trigger or not.

I truly did enjoy the Waterford fight. At last Serena said what she no doubt thinks all the time, that her husband is a fucking idiot, so that was interesting for upcoming story. They can't take back anything they said.

So June had her baby and the Waterfords fought. That's all that happened here as far as I could see.

[AngelaHunter]

On 6/29/2018 at 10:44 AM, LeGrandElephant said:

Don’t you think it’s a normal reaction of a person in a completely oppressed situation to use any little bit of manipulation they can? Throughout history women (and/especially slaves and servants) have been accused of being sly and sneaky and I think that’s a fair product of the situation they were in, with no other power to work with.

Absolutely. People use what power they have, and women who historically have had little to no power had to be quick-witted and what some may see as devious to protect themselves. Being pregnant gave June an iota of power, if only the power to avoid being brutalized, executed or raped (mostly). Most people would say or do anything to avoid torture and other abuses. I know I would. It's not "sneaky". It's self-preservation, and the instinct to survive is primary in any living creature.

[Token]

I feel like this season has just been a mix of either torture porn or complete boredom, with brief moments of absurdity, like when they brought back the radioactive-with-peeling-skin Handmaids to make babies again.  Just awful.  The only bright moment for me has been when Emily quite clearly didn't give a shit about the commander collapsing and kicked him while he was down.  That was awesome.  And maybe Hannah.  The rest = blah.

[Helena Dax]

9 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

There are always people being massacred somewhere, sometime in the world.  What, exactly do you suggest is done about the slaves in Africa and Asia?  Because, ya know, militarily interfering in other countries has really worked out well, hasn’t it?  Obviously, other countries might economically boycott Gilead but I doubt anyone would invade to change the regime. Why should they risk their people’s lives?

Well, that's my point. I've seen lots of posts wondering about the world's reaction to Gilead, but maybe there isn't any serious reaction. Maybe the world doesn't give a shit because that's what usually happens in RL.

[alexvillage]

10 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

Is it never summer in Massachusetts?

To me, the endless rain/snow shows a lack of imagination coming from the production team. It is like it has to be colorless to show bleakness. 

[dleighg]

1 minute ago, alexvillage said:

It is like it has to be colorless to show bleakness. 

and I think they love the visual effect of red against white. It would also require a lot more thought and imagination to show the horror of the life while the trees are green.

[SourK]

On 6/27/2018 at 7:34 PM, Lady Calypso said:

 This episode was trying too hard at being "unique", you know? Or maybe that's what I'm projecting through the episode because I'm tired of Elizabeth Moss staring into a camera while it lingers forever. And I do like Elizabeth Moss and think she's a fine actress; I'm just tired of the same stuff they keep making her do every other episode...over and over and over again. Nothing new comes out of it. 

I guess I find the show trying TOO hard this season with being ground-breaking and whatnot. I think it's lost its appeal for me.

There's a thing that happens sometimes when a show starts getting a lot of praise and attention where everyone becomes self-conscious and suddenly things that used to seem effortless seem really forced. I think that's what's bugging me about this season, and I didn't put my finger on it until I read your comment just now. I'm getting a sense from the writing and the directing and some of the acting (Ann Dowd more than anyone, TBH) that everybody went, "Oh, shit, we made an important show. What can we do to make sure the next season's also important?"

I know that when people start paying attention to me, and I feel self-conscious, I also start fumbling with things I normally know how to do, so I'm not judging anyone. I just kind of wish they hadn't read their own press and had kept focusing on what was happening on set and not what everyone would say about it later.

On 6/28/2018 at 10:25 AM, Joana said:

I think that was a bit of revisionist history on Serena's part. I don't think she actually willingly gave up everything she had. She obviously had much different expectations about Gilead, but by the time she realized what it was really going to look like and what her role in the society would be, it was already too late. However, in order to keep her mind she managed to convince herself that if she got a baby, it would all be worth it - and now, if she would be denied even that, she's literally left with nothing.

Agree. I think there's a way of reading that conversation where what she's saying is that Fred has asked an awful lot from her, and she's given it to him, whereas the only thing she's explicitly asked him for is to help her kidnap a baby, and he keeps screwing it up.

[llewis823]

9 hours ago, watchTV said:

I would much rather watch a show about the Waterfords -- a true believer couple gradually realizes that the dystopia they helped to create is fucked at its core -- than this insipid and pointless Elizabeth Moss vanity project.  

June isn't even a likable character, either in her present Offred existence or Before.  

I feel the same way. Even when she is semi-content, she has that pissy look on her face. She had an affair with a married man (now husband) and is now cheating on him with Nick. (Granted I get that Nick saved her and is her only real ally, etc, but still...she's married and her husband is alive). 

[Stiggs]

17 hours ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

President Oprah. She sent the mystical black dog wolf totem spirit animal of protection.

And VP Springsteen! If the show did that I’d marry it, praise be, lol. 

[Clanstarling]

12 hours ago, Earlwoode said:

On 6/27/2018 at 8:47 AM, Helena Dax said:

Right now there are people being massacred in several parts of the world, there are about 150 millions of slaves in Africa and Asia etc. and tbh, I don't see people in general losing their sleep over that. So maybe Gilead is being watched with the same indifference. 

There are always people being massacred somewhere, sometime in the world.  What, exactly do you suggest is done about the slaves in Africa and Asia?  Because, ya know, militarily interfering in other countries has really worked out well, hasn’t it?  Obviously, other countries might economically boycott Gilead but I doubt anyone would invade to change the regime. Why should they risk their people’s lives?

Seems to me that was the @Helena Dax's point - expecting the interference of other countries in Gilead's affairs because of human rights violations isn't consistent with the way the world has always operated. Nobody goes to war over someone else's misfortune, unless it threatens their own needs (say, oil).

2 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

Well, that's my point. I've seen lots of posts wondering about the world's reaction to Gilead, but maybe there isn't any serious reaction. Maybe the world doesn't give a shit because that's what usually happens in RL.

Or, you know, what you said. :)

9 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I was thinking the same thing, since I've done it myself when I returned home in winter and the power was out - no garage door opener. Anyone living in perpetual winter would know to do that.

But not necessarily an urban girl, or, if the perpetual winter is somehow related to Gilead, not a Handmaiden who only encounters automobiles after they've left the garage. At least at home.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Eureka]

5 hours ago, dleighg said:

and I think they love the visual effect of red against white. It would also require a lot more thought and imagination to show the horror of the life while the trees are green.

I agree with this but also wonder, would whatever in the environment that’s causing infertility affect the trees? Maybe they aren’t greeen because of that. (Yes, I know, trying to rationalize it, lol)

[Shermie]

Has there always been snow? I vaguely recall June and Rory (sorry, can remember her name) walking and talking outside and it was more summerlike. When she stole the car? 

Honestly, I thought the wolf was symbolic, just in June's mind. Because it seemed to appear and reappear so quickly.

As for the car, that wasn't a muscle car. It was a Trans Am or Firebird, which are sports cars, not muscle cars.

And people drove around for decades without car seats for their babies, even newborns. And almost all of them lived to tell the tale, without neck damage. June's baby would have been fine. (Yes, I know car seats are better.) 

[mamadrama]

5 hours ago, dleighg said:

and I think they love the visual effect of red against white. It would also require a lot more thought and imagination to show the horror of the life while the trees are green.

Which is weird because, for me, one of the creepiest scenes was in 01.01 when the Handmaids were in that well lit, colorful, modern supermarket. The place looked normal, but you knew everything was all fucked up.

[AngelaHunter]

28 minutes ago, Shermie said:

Has there always been snow?

Well, sometimes it's raining! Maybe someone killed a unicorn.

I loved the high, overhead visual of the red against the perpetual snow (or even the greyness of the alternative steady rain) the first few times. It was striking and artistic. Now it's, "Again?" It's as though someone said, "Hey, how cool is that? Let's put it in every episode."

6 hours ago, dleighg said:

It would also require a lot more thought and imagination to show the horror of the life while the trees are green.

Yet, that's what intensifies horror - mundane, cookie-cutter neighbourhood, little flower gardens, people washing cars, etc - all that makes the horror hit harder.

28 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

colorful, modern supermarket. The place looked normal, but you knew everything was all fucked up.

Yes, normal, except in the ep before this one. I was thinking, "Wtf is in those counters? Rat skulls?" They were skulls, weren't they?

[LordOfLotion]

15 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Well, sometimes it's raining! Maybe someone killed a unicorn.

I loved the high, overhead visual of the red against the perpetual snow (or even the greyness of the alternative steady rain) the first few times. It was striking and artistic. Now it's, "Again?" It's as though someone said, "Hey, how cool is that? Let's put it in every episode."

Yet, that's what intensifies horror - mundane, cookie-cutter neighbourhood, little flower gardens, people washing cars, etc - all that makes the horror hit harder.

Yes, normal, except in the ep before this one. I was thinking, "Wtf is in those counters? Rat skulls?" They were skulls, weren't they?

I think they were goat heads. I saw a guy buy them at a butcher shop on an extreme cheapskate show once. He boiled them whole and served them as dinner for himself and his wife. The wife wouldn't eat it. If that's what they're serving in Gilead, all the border patrols in the world wouldn't be able to keep me in there.

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, SourK said:

I know that when people start paying attention to me, and I feel self-conscious, I also start fumbling with things I normally know how to do, so I'm not judging anyone. I just kind of wish they hadn't read their own press and had kept focusing on what was happening on set and not what everyone would say about it later.

Yes, I think two thing influenced this season of the show in negative ways.

1. Having a hit, and so much praise, for a show that was on almost unknown Hulu
2. The desire to milk this cow until it drops dead (the 10 seasons bullshit)

However, I see hope for future seasons because they are NOT getting the same kind of praise for this season, certainly not from many viewers, and also, God Bless VOX's latest review.  VOX has amazing reviewers, respected reviewers, and in this week's review?  They say many of the things we've been saying here.  I'm hoping more reviewers "get real" with this show-runner, and he takes note and adjusts accordingly.

8 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

Well, that's my point. I've seen lots of posts wondering about the world's reaction to Gilead, but maybe there isn't any serious reaction. Maybe the world doesn't give a shit because that's what usually happens in RL.

We know the entire world has boycotted Gilead, there is absolutely no one that will trade with them (and yes, I'm ignoring the idiotic Mexico story line, which, like most other story lines has been dropped.)

The USA is, by far, the most heavily armed country in the world.  Going to war with the USA/Gilead, even in it's depleted state?  Suicide. 

8 hours ago, alexvillage said:

To me, the endless rain/snow shows a lack of imagination coming from the production team. It is like it has to be colorless to show bleakness. 

I think it shows that the actors have other projects, and for whatever reason, Hulu has decided to only film in winter, maybe it's cheaper to book studios in Canada in winter, who knows?  They did have at least one scene last season in temperate weather, I think it was Emily with the nice wife who kept postponing the ceremony until Emily pointed out that if she didn't have a baby, Gilead would kill her in the Colonies. 

7 hours ago, dleighg said:

and I think they love the visual effect of red against white. It would also require a lot more thought and imagination to show the horror of the life while the trees are green.

True, and it's effective, but enough already!

5 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Seems to me that was the @Helena Dax's point - expecting the interference of other countries in Gilead's affairs because of human rights violations isn't consistent with the way the world has always operated. Nobody goes to war over someone else's misfortune, unless it threatens their own needs (say, oil).

Or, you know, what you said. :)

But not necessarily an urban girl, or, if the perpetual winter is somehow related to Gilead, not a Handmaiden who only encounters automobiles after they've left the garage. At least at home.

As I said above, going to war with a country that has a ton of weapons at their disposal, even if you don't count the nukes, which, if I were the leader of a country considering war with the (former) USA, I certainly would. 

Gilead is not Africa, it's well armed, and capable of doing great damage.

2 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Which is weird because, for me, one of the creepiest scenes was in 01.01 when the Handmaids were in that well lit, colorful, modern supermarket. The place looked normal, but you knew everything was all fucked up.

I was glad to see they changed that this year.  Now it's dark, and not well stocked, with old fashioned bins holding what there is available, complete with announcements about what will not be available.  My kinda-sorta fan wank is that electricity and fuel is scarce.  That's why it's so dimly lit, that's why there are so few cars on the road.  They can't import oil either, and I'm assuming their are numerous issues about processing or even having access to US sources of oil.  We do know that Gilead hates science, and blames that and things like nuclear power plants for the low birth rates.  It's safe to assume those that didn't meltdown, have been turned off.

[AngelaHunter]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

The desire to milk this cow until it drops dead (the 10 seasons bullshit)

Yep. Exactly what they  did with "The Walking Dead" until it was not merely dead, but really most sincerely dead (and dumb and stupid and boring). The goose that laid the golden egg is cooked.

1 hour ago, LordOfLotion said:

I think they were goat heads. I saw a guy buy them at a butcher shop on an extreme cheapskate show once.

I do remember that, unfortunately. But I don't think he bought them. I think he got them from a dumpster. I think that was the first and only time I saw that show. If that were my husband - "Divorce Court" here I come!

[Hollandaise]

11 hours ago, alexvillage said:

Is it never summer in Massachusetts?

I think they simply filmed this season during the winter.

Quote

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

and I think they love the visual effect of red against white. It would also require a lot more thought and imagination to show the horror of the life while the trees are green.

 

First season had many scenes to show a different time of year.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Hollandaise said:

I think they simply filmed this season during the winter.

First season had many scenes to show a different time of year.

Yes, but we saw June go from barely showing to delivering a baby, all in winter.  Just a tad strange...

[Earlwoode]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Gilead is not Africa, it's well armed, and capable of doing great damage.

Well, that’s another problem with this world: I thought (it’s implied anyway) they’d given up technology as evil and polluting?  So they kept the nukes?  And what about this war they are supposed to be fighting?  Who are they at war with?  Where is the “front”? Who is fighting there since we see a lot of armed young men in the streets?  Where, exactly, are these “colonies” and who (or what) are they colonizing?  Are the Commanders military commanders or is it just a title  for the elite?  There are lots of questions that remain unanswered and make this very world very unbelievable. 

 

I agree with the overkill of EM staring into the camera  with the exact same smirk all the time.  I find her character distasteful.  She’s married but professes to love Nick.  Mind you, I find the Luke character bland and uninteresting and can’t see why she married him at all. They have no chemistry as a couple.   I also get the impression he is now shagging Moira but maybe that’s just me, lol.  And oh yes the Waterford’s are so much more interesting to watch.  For me the best actresss is IS - she acts rings around EM, IMO,

.  

Edited July 3, 2018 by Earlwoode

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, Earlwoode said:

Well, that’s another problem with this world: I thought (it’s implied anyway) they’d given up technology as evil and polluting?  So they kept the nukes?  And what about this war they are supposed to be fighting?  Who are they at war with?  Where is the “front”? Who is fighting there since we see a lot of armed young men in the streets?  Where, exactly, are these “colonies” and who (or what) are they colonizing?  Are the Commanders military commanders or is it just a title  for the elite?  There are lots of questions that remain unanswered and make this very world very unbelievable. 

 

 

The colonies are either growing crops or cleaning up nuclear waste, both have which have been mentioned on the show.

The wars are against the rebels, and being fought in several areas of Gilead.  The rebels are Americans who fought Gilead, and still fight it, after the take over. 

Other soldiers are fighting the war, and many of them have econowives back home.

Other than that, the show hasn't clarified, which is annoying.

In the book the

Spoiler

Rocky Mountain area

is particularly noted as a huge trouble spot for the wars, but there are many fronts, different people fighting, as well as people like Nick who is fighting inside the regime.

[Anosmia]

On 6/29/2018 at 4:38 AM, AnswersWanted said:

Absolutely, she is not prepared at all to deal with a child once they begins to show itheir own personality, separate from her and her wants and needs and desires. 

 What will she do the first time the child snaps a loud “No!”at her? We’ve seen she’s quick to resort to physical violence when she’s feeling frustrated, her temper is very short.

Will personality even be allowed? Will kids be allowed to snap "No!" at their parents? The terrible twos and bratty teen years won't be so terrible in Gilead, I suspect, because kids will get their spirits broken early in the game. They will be made docile and pliable, just like Eden. I'm thinking in particular of the Duggars and their ilk--the way they blanket train their kids and crush their spirits to squash all rebelliousness. I'm also thinking about the child-rearing adage of the olden days: "Children should be seen, not heard." Headstrong toddlers and mouthy teens simply weren't tolerated back then. I don't see them being tolerated in Gilead, either. In Gilead, among the lower classes, this would be done partially to help the kids stay alive (horrible punishments await people who fight back, after all) and partially to help them accept their lot in life. I doubt there's any movement among social strata in Gilead, except downward. An econokid may as well be taught that being a freekthinker and/or joining the ruling elite isn't an option, and expressing an opinion and pushing back isn't an option, so she should keep her head down, stay compliant, and accept her fate either as a future econowife or a handmaid. Parents would really be doing their kids no favors if they allowed them to develop a spark of independence or allowed them to sass back. 

At the Red Center the women were basically told, "We know this is tough for you, because you remember life before. But for future generations, this will be all they know." I think the kids of Gilead will only know how to obey and how to be meek. They'll be raised to think that this is the natural order of things. Girls will be raised from Day One to realize that they have no power and compliance is mandatory. 

Now, commanders' kids (or at least their sons) might get away with exercising a modicum of independence and showing attitude; I picture them as being like the douchey rich teens I see today who feel entitled and untouchable (the Affluenza guy, for example). I picture Serena maybe being a bit lenient with Holly, indulging the child's spiritedness and not wanting to punish her. But it seems like the commanders and their wives will only indulge such things so far, because they seem very aware that their own position is tenuous. We know from the book that 

Spoiler

purges happen in the middle and later stages of Gilead, much like the purges we see among the ruling elite in North Korea. As Heidi Klum would say, "One day you're in, the next day you're out." Waterford was among the earliest purges, back when purge trials were still broadcast on TV.

At the very least, Serena and Fred seem very aware of how things could turn on a dime for them, and if they're aware of this, presumably other commanders are, too. So, it seems reasonable to think that even the highest-ranking leaders would put the kibosh on any substantial attitude and personality flexing coming from their kids. Toeing the party line is what's going to keep those kids alive and ruling over the next generation. 

[Ashforth]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, but we saw June go from barely showing to delivering a baby, all in winter.  Just a tad strange...

I've found the timeline to be wonky to the point of unbelievable for the entire second season.

[Ashforth]

22 hours ago, Token said:

I feel like this season has just been a mix of either torture porn or complete boredom, with brief moments of absurdity, like when they brought back the radioactive-with-peeling-skin Handmaids to make babies again.

Emily's teeth were falling out! No way she would be fertile. It was a lazy way of bringing back Alexis Bleidel, because she was brilliant and deservedly won an Emmy for her role in season one. Same for Madeline Brewer as Janine.  Surely the writers could have done better.

[Umbelina]

Someone posted links when that happened, it turned out women have given birth to healthy children after exposure, so it's not completely out there.

[Ashforth]

38 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Someone posted links when that happened, it turned out women have given birth to healthy children after exposure, so it's not completely out there.

I didn't click the links back then so I'm still ignorant, but it occurs to me that if we humans can survive and reproduce despite exposure to extreme radiation, maybe we will survive even after cockroaches are extinct.

I meant for that to be funny, but it's really bleak. :-(

Edited July 4, 2018 by Ashforth