S02.E08: Kiksuya

[Rumsy4]

7 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

How is it that I can root for and sympathize with Bernard, Maeve, and now Akecheta (hell, even Lee Sizemore!) but I just can't muster much interest or empathy for Dolores? I think part of the blame falls on the actress, but I also wonder if I'm not supposed to root for her.

I don't think it's the actress's fault, as she was pretty good in all her scenes with Dolores's father this season. The writing for Dolores has been pretty tediously one-note this season, and that hasn't done her any favors. I do think the writers are deliberately writing her as unsympathetic this season. I have a feeling there will be another inversion by the end of the season--something that makes her realize that she's still a pawn (Ford's). That won't save her Season 2 arc, but it may set her up to be sympathetic again for the next season.

[JustCrazy]

Wow.  This episode actually made me tear up.  What a gut punch.  I had to freaking hold my hand up enough to cover Maeve’s gaping neck wound.  Gross ?

oh, and the Lakota men are h.o.t.

[Ottis]

Like so much of this season, this was a long way to tell a simple story. Beautiful shots, but oh so slow. 

And as a result, all I want to know is, why, when they first identified Aketcha as living a decade with no update, did the woman seem to change and say put him back out there with an update? It seemed like she knew something of Ford’s plan. 

As soon as he used “Deathbringer” I knew it was Dolores. Heh. 

Can’t believe MIB lived through all that rough handling after almost dying by the river.

And so at the end Maeve is talking with Aketcha. Ok, I guess. I mean, logically she could sift through the net and talk to any host, we know that. It’s poetic that she talked to the man with her “true heart,” but not surprising. I suppose she isn’t talking to her daughter because her daughter wouldn’t be able to understand. 

I don’t think Sizemore will stay away, do you? Though his conversion to weepy believer seemed to come on a bit suddenly. 

[Rumsy4]

5 minutes ago, Ottis said:

And as a result, all I want to know is, why, when they first identified Aketcha as living a decade with no update, did the woman seem to change and say put him back out there with an update? It seemed like she knew something of Ford’s plan. 

I think she was just trying to cover up their oversight. Out of sight out of mind. Then an old model running around would become someone else's problem. 

[Uncle JUICE]

5 minutes ago, Ottis said:

 

And as a result, all I want to know is, why, when they first identified Aketcha as living a decade with no update, did the woman seem to change and say put him back out there with an update? It seemed like she knew something of Ford’s plan. 

 

Entry #2 this week on the "Grounds for Lawsuit from Investors in Delos" weekly. Each one of these robots, no matter how many there are, would be serialized and their mod status would be very, very carefully managed through the Delos internal system of record (thinking in terms of SAP, for example). There would be an entire team dedicated to monitoring that status, and when mandatory mods were published as technology became available, a schedule would be made to fit that mod either through attrition (when they die, this makes sense) or scheduled removal (scheduling selected narrative suspension for however long these updates take to install, which seems closer to hours than months, then returning the post-mod host to the park). The idea that one might escape for a while seems reasonable, but each one of these project, these retrofits (This is what they're called in my industry, aircraft), would have a project closure meeting to ensure every applicable serial number had been modified. You'd end up with "where are we on completion?" and the asnwer's something like "We've done 3628 out of 3700 hosts, here are the remaining unmodified units." It's as simple as saying "Which hosts are still left?" then forcing them out of the park or updating on park grounds by sending a tech team out, suspending the narrative and uploading. 

No wonder this place seems to be in some sort of financial trouble they way it's managed!

[zobot81]

Can we just take a moment to give mad props to Akecheta the bad-ass mo-fo -- for not dying once, over the course of an entire  decade, whilst living inside of a 24/7 murder park?? 

Unkillable. 

Love it.

Edited June 11, 2018 by zobot81
misspelled Ake's full name

[jcin617]

7 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Or maybe Ford was keeping him off their radar.

Ford told him at one point that he had been watching him for some time;  it's entirely possible Ford removed Ake from the park's host inventory control system so Delos would not interfere with him.

[terrymct]

I loved this episode.   I'd been wondering if there was more to the Native characters than we'd been seeing since they were mostly dropping in and running out of scenes thus far.  Great backstory.  Great tying up of threads.   

So, what the heck is in that big hole in the ground?   I'm still confused as to Delos' end game.  Their study of human behavior has to be able to be monetized in some way.  Hints last week that it's to move human minds into AI status to be immortal.   AI's aren't immortal necessarily, though, while they don't have an expiration date like human bodies do they ARE susceptible to damage.  They could also run out of power which would be the AI version of a heart attack, I guess.

That stuff in the hole couldn't/shouldn't be a big neural network for the human minds to be replicated into.  It's too exposed to the elements and doesn't have to be that big.   There have been hints about the next stage of evolution, which could be the AI migration, but what if the next stage of evolution is the movement of humans to other planets?  Minds in AI form to do exploration and long distance travel?  They'd survive long enough (baring injury) to make the trip and would be able to run the systems.   The stuff in the hole looked mechanical and space station-ish.  Nothing is ever by accident in this show, is it?  (Well except the sort of reboot in the middle of season one.)

[WatchrTina]

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The music was especially haunting this week, that Nirvana cover gave me chills when I realized what I was hearing.

You are all better at spotting the music than I am.  What Nirvana song did they cover and when was it?  (Though, admittedly, if it wasn't "Smells Like Team Spirit" I'm not going to know it.  Now if they covered an ABBA song -- I'd spot that in an instant!)

[Uncle JUICE]

1 minute ago, WatchrTina said:

You are all better at spotting the music than I am.  What Nirvana song did they cover and when was it?  (Though, admittedly, if it wasn't "Smells Like Team Spirit" I'm not going to know it.  Now if they covered an ABBA song -- I'd spot that in an instant!)

Heart shaped box

[CarpeFelis]

So putting aside the laughable lack of security down in the labs — if Akecheta was programmed for his world, how the hell did he not look at the escalator and wonder what it was? Instead he just steps on like he’s been hanging around shopping malls all his life. /facepalm

Also I’ve been wondering just how the hosts are powered.  He was one of the original mechanical hosts and hadn’t been brought in for maintenance for 9 years, but never ran out of juice? /facepalm again

Edited June 11, 2018 by CarpeFelis
typo

[WatchrTina]

48 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Heart shaped box

Thanks.  I just spotted that later in the thread and and was coming to remove my question but you beat me to it.

So here's another question:  What was the point of hiding the maze symbol inside the the "scalps" of hosts?  And how, exactly, did they get away with that?  Did Akecheta go around scalping people (including his friend), burning the image into the "flesh" and then relying on the technicians from down under to put the scalp back during a repair session and NOT notice it?  I guess I've answered my own question but man, that feels like a stretch.

And I guess Ford DID finally notice that someone was doing that, which prompts him to go out into the park, interrupt a bear-hunt, freeze all motor functions and cut the scalps off all the participants.  WTF?  I'm having trouble imagining how he explained that to the technical crew that had to come along and mop up afterward.  Then again -- I guess Ford didn't feel the need to explain himself to anyone.

 

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

The writing for Dolores has been pretty tediously one-note this season, and that hasn't done her any favors.

I never saw the original movie, "Westword" but I'm pretty sure Yul Brenner played the bad guy -- the muder-bot.  I have a theory that in THIS retelling, Dolores fills the role of the main murder-bot.  At least they tried to give her an interesting and tragic back-story:  30 years as a rape-victim after once being the "teacher's pet" (secret meetings with Arnold.)  But yeah, she's rather unrepentantly murderous now.

 

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

all I want to know is, why, when they first identified Aketcha as living a decade with no update, did the woman seem to change and say put him back out there with an update? It seemed like she knew something of Ford’s plan. 

I got the sense that her reaction was "Oh shit!  How did we miss that?  Quick, patch him up, run through the updates (jeez that's gonna take FOREVER -- imagine catching up on 10 years of Windows updates) and then get him out of here so no one catches on that we missed this."  I thought she was acting confused and guilty, assuming someone had screwed up and fearful that she would be blamed.  I don't think she's in cahoots with Ford.  I don't think anyone is in cahoots with him.  He's playing god all by himself.

Edited June 11, 2018 by WatchrTina

[terrymct]

36 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

And I guess Ford DID finally notice that someone was doing that, which prompts him to go out into the park, interrupt a bear-hunt, freeze all motor functions and cut the scalps off all the participants.  WTF?  I'm having trouble imagining how he explained that to the technical crew that had to come along and mop up afterward.  Then again -- I guess Ford didn't feel the need to explain himself to anyone.

I was confused by that, as well.  I can imagine them having to stage a scene to make sure it looks reasonable before adding it to programming, but why would several of the hunters be kneeling during a bear hunt, let alone scalped?  It's hard to believe that Ford wouldn't have noticed the design under the scalps since the MIB obviously did.   To be part of the underside of the skin like that, it would have to be part of the design.   If Akeche was tattooing scalps after a host was killed but before they were taken down for repair, SOMEONE would have noticed that.  Either the tattoo or him hanging around banging pigment into the underside of scalps.

[Chris24601]

53 minutes ago, CarpeFelis said:

So putting aside the laughable lack of security down in the labs — if Akecheta was programmed for his world, how the hell did he not look at the escalator and wonder what it was? Instead he just steps on like he’s been hanging around shopping malls all his life. /facepalm

Akecheta was also one of the hosts that got taken out to the real world as part of investor pitches (Logan was certainly not the only one). I figure if he’s woke enough to remember the world is wrong, then like Dolores he probably at least partially remembers the real world and hence escalators.

[Uncle JUICE]

23 minutes ago, terrymct said:

I was confused by that, as well.  I can imagine them having to stage a scene to make sure it looks reasonable before adding it to programming, but why would several of the hunters be kneeling during a bear hunt, let alone scalped?  It's hard to believe that Ford wouldn't have noticed the design under the scalps since the MIB obviously did.   To be part of the underside of the skin like that, it would have to be part of the design.   If Akeche was tattooing scalps after a host was killed but before they were taken down for repair, SOMEONE would have noticed that.  Either the tattoo or him hanging around banging pigment into the underside of scalps.

I'm confused as to why Ford wasn't wearing PPE. At least those elbow length rubber gloves, dude, you know you're cutting off a scalp when you go into the park!

[The Companion]

39 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Akecheta was also one of the hosts that got taken out to the real world as part of investor pitches (Logan was certainly not the only one). I figure if he’s woke enough to remember the world is wrong, then like Dolores he probably at least partially remembers the real world and hence escalators.

Even if he hadn't been, I suspect they have an innate subconscious understanding of escalators, elevators, etc. built in to allow them to be moved from place to place. We have seen them being walked by techs multiple times (rather than moved on a gurney). It would make sense for them to be able to navigate these things subconsciously. It was a little odd that he knew to go to the bottom floor, but I actually thought it might tie to the down below myth. They reference going "down below" so it would make sense to start at the lowest part of the headquarters. 

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

I got the sense that her reaction was "Oh shit!  How did we miss that?  Quick, patch him up, run through the updates (jeez that's gonna take FOREVER -- imagine catching up on 10 years of Windows updates) and then get him out of here so no one catches on that we missed this."  I thought she was acting confused and guilty, assuming someone had screwed up and fearful that she would be blamed.  I don't think she's in cahoots with Ford.  I don't think anyone is in cahoots with him.  He's playing god all by himself.

Yeah,  that definitely seemed like a CYA move to me. Get it done and get rid of him before anyone thinks to look too closely. 

[Uncle JUICE]

2 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Even if he hadn't been, I suspect they have an innate subconscious understanding of escalators, elevators, etc. built in to allow them to be moved from place to place. We have seen them being walked by techs multiple times (rather than moved on a gurney). It would make sense for them to be able to navigate these things subconsciously. It was a little odd that he knew to go to the bottom floor, but I actually thought it might tie to the down below myth. They reference going "down below" so it would make sense to start at the lowest part of the headquarters. 

Yet another terrible security practice at this place...the operations and process manager in me says there would be a policy wherein no host is moved from one room to another without being in a secured wheelchair. They won't let you walk out of a hospital without a wheelchair in many states. Employee badges should open the lab doors to get into the lab AND out of the lab (limiting access would be paramount in a place with this big a boner about their IP), employees would have a common lab coat to be worn at all times (visual indication to other floor employees of who's Delos and who's not), and no host would be ambulatory outside of a test environment under any circumstances. If you see someone who's not in a lab coat wandering the hallways, procedures are to immediately lock down your floor and notify management and security, cease all operations until cleared for activity by same. Of course, it doesn't help that it looks like this entire company has like 20 actual employees, and a shit ton of contractors.  

[The Companion]

21 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Yet another terrible security practice at this place...the operations and process manager in me says there would be a policy wherein no host is moved from one room to another without being in a secured wheelchair. They won't let you walk out of a hospital without a wheelchair in many states. Employee badges should open the lab doors to get into the lab AND out of the lab (limiting access would be paramount in a place with this big a boner about their IP), employees would have a common lab coat to be worn at all times (visual indication to other floor employees of who's Delos and who's not), and no host would be ambulatory outside of a test environment under any circumstances. If you see someone who's not in a lab coat wandering the hallways, procedures are to immediately lock down your floor and notify management and security, cease all operations until cleared for activity by same. Of course, it doesn't help that it looks like this entire company has like 20 actual employees, and a shit ton of contractors.  

Yes, the security is terrible. I think it speaks to employee apathy and a bit of arrogance. In their mind, these are just robots and they do what they are programmed for. You wouldn't expect your car to suddenly start up and head to the store. Given what we have seen of the employees, it is very possible that they do have strict guidelines for host lockdown that just aren't followed. I suspect there is a false sense of security on the part of Delos because there is a controllable method for entry and exit to the park. If you have a malfunctioning host, it isn't going to get very far. I actually really like the fact that many of the employees tend to phone it in. Humans are, after all, inherently human and they do human things. They make mistakes, they take the easiest route, they have varying levels of work ethic. 

[Captain Carrot]

2 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Entry #2 this week on the "Grounds for Lawsuit from Investors in Delos" weekly. Each one of these robots, no matter how many there are, would be serialized and their mod status would be very, very carefully managed through the Delos internal system of record (thinking in terms of SAP, for example). There would be an entire team dedicated to monitoring that status, and when mandatory mods were published as technology became available, a schedule would be made to fit that mod either through attrition (when they die, this makes sense) or scheduled removal (scheduling selected narrative suspension for however long these updates take to install, which seems closer to hours than months, then returning the post-mod host to the park). The idea that one might escape for a while seems reasonable, but each one of these project, these retrofits (This is what they're called in my industry, aircraft), would have a project closure meeting to ensure every applicable serial number had been modified. You'd end up with "where are we on completion?" and the asnwer's something like "We've done 3628 out of 3700 hosts, here are the remaining unmodified units." It's as simple as saying "Which hosts are still left?" then forcing them out of the park or updating on park grounds by sending a tech team out, suspending the narrative and uploading. 

No wonder this place seems to be in some sort of financial trouble they way it's managed!

That reminds me of the story about Florida going a year without using the FBI database for concealed carry permits because the person that was supposed to review them lost their password.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article212815189.html

 

Additionally, (based on my experience) a lot of departments have a habit of not looking for work, and only doing the work specifically assigned to them. That becomes an issue when there's a job that doesn't fit into any of the current job descriptions. (Or even worse, falls into a situation where two different departments should share responsibility).

So, I can see the people responsible for updates as repairs come in not considering hosts that don't need repairs, and I can see that security would only be concerned with hosts that have obviously aberrant behavior. Akecheta wasn't dying or violent, so he didn't fall into either department's purview. Someone above them would have to tell the departments to look for hosts like Akecheta. However, that someone was probably Ford, and he was probably perfectly happy to let hosts like Akecheta wander off.

[Uncle JUICE]

1 minute ago, Captain Carrot said:

That reminds me of the story about Florida going a year without using the FBI database for concealed carry permits because the person that was supposed to review them lost their password.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article212815189.html

 

Additionally, (based on my experience) a lot of departments have a habit of not looking for work, and only doing the work specifically assigned to them. That becomes an issue when there's a job that doesn't fit into any of the current job descriptions. (Or even worse, falls into a situation where two different departments should share responsibility).

So, I can see the people responsible for updates as repairs come in not considering hosts that don't need repairs, and I can see that security would only be concerned with hosts that have obviously aberrant behavior. Akecheta wasn't dying or violent, so he didn't fall into either department's purview. Someone above them would have to tell the departments to look for hosts like Akecheta. However, that someone was probably Ford, and he was probably perfectly happy to let hosts like Akecheta wander off.

More evidence that there's an entirely OTHER interesting show to make here: "The Office: Delos Destinations and Labs Edition."

[The Companion]

15 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

More evidence that there's an entirely OTHER interesting show to make here: "The Office: Delos Destinations and Labs Edition."

Imagine the pranks DelosJim could pull on DelosDwight. 

[Ottis]

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Thanks.  I just spotted that later in the thread and and was coming to remove my question but you beat me to it.

So here's another question:  What was the point of hiding the maze symbol inside the the "scalps" of hosts?  And how, exactly, did they get away with that?  Did Akecheta go around scalping people (including his friend), burning the image into the "flesh" and then relying on the technicians from down under to put the scalp back during a repair session and NOT notice it?  I guess I've answered my own question but man, that feels like a stretch.

And I guess Ford DID finally notice that someone was doing that, which prompts him to go out into the park, interrupt a bear-hunt, freeze all motor functions and cut the scalps off all the participants.  WTF?  I'm having trouble imagining how he explained that to the technical crew that had to come along and mop up afterward.  Then again -- I guess Ford didn't feel the need to explain himself to anyone.

 

I never saw the original movie, "Westword" but I'm pretty sure Yul Brenner played the bad guy -- the muder-bot.  I have a theory that in THIS retelling, Dolores fills the role of the main murder-bot.  At least they tried to give her an interesting and tragic back-story:  30 years as a rape-victim after once being the "teacher's pet" (secret meetings with Arnold.)  But yeah, she's rather unrepentantly murderous now.

 

I got the sense that her reaction was "Oh shit!  How did we miss that?  Quick, patch him up, run through the updates (jeez that's gonna take FOREVER -- imagine catching up on 10 years of Windows updates) and then get him out of here so no one catches on that we missed this."  I thought she was acting confused and guilty, assuming someone had screwed up and fearful that she would be blamed.  I don't think she's in cahoots with Ford.  I don't think anyone is in cahoots with him.  He's playing god all by himself.

Maybe I heard wrong. I thought there was a choice between wiping him and returning him and just updating him and returning him “to where he belongs” and I thought she choose the later, which would keep all of his previous memories in place along with the update. 

Also, Ford must own a lot of white dress shirts. 

[Uncle JUICE]

8 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Yes, the security is terrible. I think it speaks to employee apathy and a bit of arrogance. In their mind, these are just robots and they do what they are programmed for. You wouldn't expect your car to suddenly start up and head to the store. Given what we have seen of the employees, it is very possible that they do have strict guidelines for host lockdown that just aren't followed. I suspect there is a false sense of security on the part of Delos because there is a controllable method for entry and exit to the park. If you have a malfunctioning host, it isn't going to get very far. I actually really like the fact that many of the employees tend to phone it in. Humans are, after all, inherently human and they do human things. They make mistakes, they take the easiest route, they have varying levels of work ethic. 

I see what you're saying, but I think it's safe to say that while your Sylversters and Felixes would be the sort of employees prone to apathy and arrogance, each floor supervisor would be charged with really going over work, all the time. I figure these employees have to sign SIGNIFICANT NDA's, right? Basically, they have to leave their families and go work at the Mesa, wherever it is, for a long enough time that they required "rotating" out of the facility. To me, that sounds like a multiple year tour of duty. It seems reasonable, then, to think that it's plausible that when you're talking about a floor supervisor, one who's responsible for host maintenance, that person would be paid more than Sylvester, and would also likely sign a contract stating that anything that goes wrong with the host, they are mutually liable and will be co-defendants at LEAST with Delos in any liability matter. So if you're the floor supervisor and you're found that some robot from your floor was improerly updated and that resulted in a guest injury or some loss for Delos, you'd be personally sued. That'd keep my ass in line.

You'd be surprised when I get bored by this show, which in season 2 has been pretty often, how much time I spend managing this place in my mind :).  

[ACW]

4 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

So putting aside the laughable lack of security down in the labs — if Akecheta was programmed for his world, how the hell did he not look at the escalator and wonder what it was? Instead he just steps on like he’s been hanging around shopping malls all his life. /facepalm

Also I’ve been wondering just how the hosts are powered.  He was one of the original mechanical hosts and hadn’t been brought in for maintenance for 9 years, but never ran out of juice? /facepalm again

We'll, he probably *had* been on an escalator before, when he was one of the demo-bots for Logan.  Though I have to assume he didn't consciously remember that experience, or he would have recognized Logan (especially since, all things considered, they were probably in an orgy together).

[Athena]

Re: The use of the maze. 

The maze is a toy that Arnold's son had and he used it for Dolores as a metaphor for consciousness. While Ake was obsessed with it in his first pastoral life, he only becomes more woke when Logan tells him there is another world. Then he truly remembers when he sees Kohana. Later he adopts the symbol as a mnemonic to help his tribe awake. It becomes their symbol. 

William use to see the maze a symbol for him and tragically, he saw the symbol outside of Maeve's homestead which led him to murdering them. 

[WearyTraveler]

5 hours ago, terrymct said:

 I'm still confused as to Delos' end game.  Their study of human behavior has to be able to be monetized in some way.  Hints last week that it's to move human minds into AI status to be immortal. 

If they can replace rich/powerful people (like the ones who could afford a trip to a Delos Park) with their 99.99% identical twin host, who they control, can you imagine how much power they could actually hold?

What if we find out that Ford already found a way to do that and has replaced several people in the outside world with bots?  What if MIB is one such replacement? THIS game is for him, right? So, what is it that he needs to find out? What is his journey about now? What if the "outside" world is also another park? What if it is entirely populated by bots? We know that they can be programmed to not see / perceive something if their maker doesn't want them to, so they could easily see other bots as "humans".  What if Ford has already uploaded / replicated a bunch of real people into this world? What if Ford is operating all this from another planet? (yeah, maybe it's not that likely, but it's interesting to think about.  BTW, if I end up being right, I'm gonna use this post to get myself a job on television!)

Edited June 11, 2018 by WearyTraveler

[terrymct]

46 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

If they can replace rich/powerful people (like the ones who could afford a trip to a Delos Park) with their 99.99% identical twin host, who they control, can you imagine how much power they could actually hold?

What if we find out that Ford already found a way to do that and has replaced several people in the outside world with bots?  What if MIB is one such replacement? THIS game is for him, right? So, what is it that he needs to find out? What is his journey about now? What if the "outside" world is also another park? What if it is entirely populated by bots? We know that they can be programmed to not see / perceive something if their maker doesn't want them to, so they could easily see other bots as "humans".  What if Ford has already uploaded / replicated a bunch of real people into this world? What if Ford is operating all this from another planet? (yeah, maybe it's not that likely, but it's interesting to think about.  BTW, if I end up being right, I'm gonna use this post to get myself a job on television!)

 

I'm going back and forth as to whether the MIB is a host.  He certainly can take a whole lot of bullets and still be living.   On the minus side, Cradle Ford told Cradle Bernard that human personalities can only exist currently inside the cradle.   Of course, Bernard is a counter to that but I think the twist is that Bernard isn't Arnold's actual literal duplicate.  He looks like him and has many of his mannerisms and memories, but isn't a carbon copy the way Delos was.

[WearyTraveler]

7 minutes ago, terrymct said:

 

I'm going back and forth as to whether the MIB is a host.  He certainly can take a whole lot of bullets and still be living.   On the minus side, Cradle Ford told Cradle Bernard that human personalities can only exist currently inside the cradle.   Of course, Bernard is a counter to that but I think the twist is that Bernard isn't Arnold's actual literal duplicate.  He looks like him and has many of his mannerisms and memories, but isn't a carbon copy the way Delos was.

If Delos is looking for more power, they don't need to create a carbon copy like Delos, they can just create a bot with the same memories as the original person they want to substitute and program the bot to act and react based on the data they already have for that person.  A sophisticated identity theft, if you will.  They don't want the bot to know that he/she is a bot or a duplicate, they wouldn't want them to be conscious of their bot status.  They can then order said bot to merge their company to a Delos subsidiary, or, if the bot is the president of a nation.... well, I'm sure anyone can see the advantage of that.

Then I took the idea further.  Charlotte had planned for Abernathy to be on that train on his way to the corporate overlords with gazillions of IP in his head, but Abernathy never made it there.  Why? Someone took him somewhere else.  And we saw that Ford was in complete control and knew everything that happened in the park and at the Mesa, so, it stands to reason that Ford directed the events that moved Abernathy out of Charlotte's reach.  What if part of the reason he did that is because he had already managed to do that very thing with William? I'm not 100% convinced, but I think it's possible that William was substituted at some point.  It's easy to understand how Ford could know everything that happened in the parks, as he had access to all the systems (the ones Delos knew about and the ones he hid from Delos), but how would Ford know so many other things about Delos' decisions?  He always seems to be one step ahead of Charlotte and the board.  Perhaps he has an informant.  Perhaps he substituted William for a bot a while back and that is why he knows so much about Delos' corporate plans.  Perhaps William's daughter figured this out and she intends to hurt her father by showing him that he IS a bot.  With the current configuration, William bot would be very hurt by such a revelation, more so if his daughter were to manipulate his levers to make him feel maximum emotional pain.  Perhaps that is the game the daughter paid to play.  Her secret fantasy.

It is also possible that real William is still alive, being held prisoner somewhere by Ford.

[walnutqueen]

I feel like the little kid pointing to the naked Emperor.  This show is a consistently steaming pile of doggie poo.

[iMonrey]

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So putting aside the laughable lack of security down in the labs — if Akecheta was programmed for his world, how the hell did he not look at the escalator and wonder what it was? Instead he just steps on like he’s been hanging around shopping malls all his life.

I was struck by that scene as well, but we only saw the back of him as he stepped onto the escalator, and he took one step forward - presumably, he then realized the steps themselves were moving. We didn't get to see any kind of facial reaction because his back was to the camera, so we don't know what kind of surprise he registered. He was smart enough to figure it out and that's it. I think any reaction shot would have registered as somewhat comical and that's just not what they were going for here. He should have been rightly bewildered by ALL of his surroundings, the escalator would have been just one more thing.

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I feel like the little kid pointing to the naked Emperor.  This show is a consistently steaming pile of doggie poo.

Truthfully, I'm just not the audience for this show. I can see how people appreciated the emotional punch of an episode like this but I found it boring. But that's just me, not a criticism of anyone who enjoys the show. Clearly there's an appetite for this kind of story-telling - I just don't happen to have it.

Edited June 11, 2018 by iMonrey

[DrSpaceman]

8 hours ago, Ottis said:

Like so much of this season, this was a long way to tell a simple story. Beautiful shots, but oh so slow. 

And as a result, all I want to know is, why, when they first identified Aketcha as living a decade with no update, did the woman seem to change and say put him back out there with an update? It seemed like she knew something of Ford’s plan. 

As soon as he used “Deathbringer” I knew it was Dolores. Heh. 

Can’t believe MIB lived through all that rough handling after almost dying by the river.

And so at the end Maeve is talking with Aketcha. Ok, I guess. I mean, logically she could sift through the net and talk to any host, we know that. It’s poetic that she talked to the man with her “true heart,” but not surprising. I suppose she isn’t talking to her daughter because her daughter wouldn’t be able to understand. 

I don’t think Sizemore will stay away, do you? Though his conversion to weepy believer seemed to come on a bit suddenly. 

I agree about the story. 

I mean it was well told and a well done episode, but the problem is its a rehash from another robot's perspective of what we already know :  they remember everything, from one life to another.  I get that, don't really need to be told again. 

Also can't believe MiB lived.  But not surprised his daughter showed up for him.  Maybe he is a host, interesting concept. 

[Quilt Fairy]

10 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

 I always liked Windows 3.1 the best anyway. 

 

I've been saying that for 20 years!  (Do you think it's time for an update? ;-)  )

9 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I don't think it's the actress's fault, as she was pretty good in all her scenes with Dolores's father this season. The writing for Dolores has been pretty tediously one-note this season, and that hasn't done her any favors. I do think the writers are deliberately writing her as unsympathetic this season. .

I saw an interview with Rachel Evan Wood where she mentions that she may always look like Dolores, but for most of the season she's actually been Wyatt, who was designed to be a murdering psychopath.

The idea that Akecheta has been marking host scalps with the maze symbol for 30 years suddenly took me back to the very first episode of S1.  MIB seemingly kidnaps a host at random and tortures, scalps and eventually kills him to find out about the maze.  But who does he pick?  Kissy, a Native American.  Coincidence?

Edited June 11, 2018 by Quilt Fairy

[The Companion]

39 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Truthfully, I'm just not the audience for this show. I can see how people appreciated the emotional punch of an episode like this but I found it boring. But that's just me, not a criticism of anyone who enjoys the show. Clearly there's an appetite for this kind of story-telling - I just don't happen to have it.

I mean, that's fair but why watch it then? I admittedly love this show. I am a nerdy puzzle and sci fi type, so that is probably not surprising. I don't like traditional tear-jerking dramas (this is probably as close as I get), for example. We like what we like.

 

This episode was one of my favorites, and I still can't quite put my finger on why. There is something really impressive about writing an almost stand alone story with so much heart, and making it fit into the season. It answered some questions, but the real meat of this episode was an in depth look at some of the quiet hidden tragedy and the connections the host make when the guests aren't looking. It was about the unintentional and casual cruelty of the humans. It also established another measure of consciousness. There has been a lot of talk this season about what makes us human. What makes us us. There have been several different answers, but I think loving another is a valid answer (and was the answer in this case). The connection between Akecheta and Kohana arguably transcended their programming. The connection between Maeve and her daughter as well. It was a quiet episode in a sea of chaos, and I think this season is the better for it.

[jane1978]

This was well written and acted episode, but I really feel WW is turning into another Lost. We have miniscule plot moves per episode and the time is filled with either tragic or moving stories of more and more side characters. And the feature story today was so hard to accept. How could anyone replace character players in the middle of a running narrative and not think it will not confuse the rest of hosts? And why Dolores was reseted every day, living in an infinite groundhog day, while they kept the peacefull native nation live continuously. Their narrative seemed to be very simple, basically just a part of the background scenery, so there was no reason not to reset them every night. Ten years is a ridiculously long time and it seemed he could basically live free and go anywhere even before he fully woke up. Just imagine the amount of data his "brain" would have to storage and process. And he was the old model!

The zero security problem was already commented by others, but seeing the door into the cold storrage open to anyone (even a host!) in a proximity like some f*cking airport entry door was just too much.

Also, I don´t understand Maeve´s "dying". if I remember right, she was shot, but not in the head. Her physical body may be mortally wounded but her artificial mind is intact. Why it seemed like they operated on her for real, when they could just temporarily turn her pain sensitivity off and put her into an analysis mode? And why she isn´t able to do it to herself when she has apparently a full admin access to every process in her mind?

Edited June 11, 2018 by jane1978

[Athena]

1 hour ago, jane1978 said:

Why it seemed like they operated on her for real, when they could just temporarily turn her pain sensitivity off and put her into an analysis mode? And why she isn´t able to do it to herself when she has apparently a full admin access to every process in her mind?

The mind is in tact, but their bodies are organic. They have organs and bodily functions and she was shot at least twice in the torso resulting in blood loss and probably organ damage. Since we haven't seen her get up, it's likely that she is paralyzed as well. She seemed to be getting some blood transfusions, but they'd need to rebuild or maybe take parts from other hosts. It's unlikely that they can build new hosts.

They can read her through the tablets, but no one has put her in Analysis mode yet except Charlotte will probably try. However, she is the most powerful host right now as she has full admin access so maybe only Ford can put her in full analysis. 

[CarpeFelis]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I was struck by that scene as well, but we only saw the back of him as he stepped onto the escalator, and he took one step forward - presumably, he then realized the steps themselves were moving. We didn't get to see any kind of facial reaction because his back was to the camera, so we don't know what kind of surprise he registered. He was smart enough to figure it out and that's it. I think any reaction shot would have registered as somewhat comical and that's just not what they were going for here. He should have been rightly bewildered by ALL of his surroundings, the escalator would have been just one more thing.

Truthfully, I'm just not the audience for this show. I can see how people appreciated the emotional punch of an episode like this but I found it boring. But that's just me, not a criticism of anyone who enjoys the show. Clearly there's an appetite for this kind of story-telling - I just don't happen to have it.

I wasn’t thinking so much of what his expression would be. I was thinking about coordinating himself to step on. Hell, I’ve been doing it for several decades and I still hesitate when getting on a down escalator though I have no trouble on one that’s going up!

[Netfoot]

4 hours ago, walnutqueen said:

I feel like the little kid pointing to the naked Emperor.

Remember:  The little kid was right!

[DrSpaceman]

This episode really should have been placed earlier in the season.  Then I think it would have been great.  And revealing.  And interesting. 

Should have been like an episode 2 or 3 this season.  And would have been a great way to reveal MiBs daughter as well, at the end of this episode.  Better than the way they did it already. 

[formerlyfreedom]

I am haunted by the images of Ake wandering through the complex. I dreamt about it, and thought of it often today.

This damn show.

[Rumsy4]

I was tossing and turning dreaming of scenes from this episode last night. This episode was quite haunting. lol

[terrymct]

17 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

If Delos is looking for more power, they don't need to create a carbon copy like Delos, they can just create a bot with the same memories as the original person they want to substitute and program the bot to act and react based on the data they already have for that person.  A sophisticated identity theft, if you will.  They don't want the bot to know that he/she is a bot or a duplicate, they wouldn't want them to be conscious of their bot status.  They can then order said bot to merge their company to a Delos subsidiary, or, if the bot is the president of a nation.... well, I'm sure anyone can see the advantage of that.

Then I took the idea further.  Charlotte had planned for Abernathy to be on that train on his way to the corporate overlords with gazillions of IP in his head, but Abernathy never made it there.  Why? Someone took him somewhere else.  And we saw that Ford was in complete control and knew everything that happened in the park and at the Mesa, so, it stands to reason that Ford directed the events that moved Abernathy out of Charlotte's reach.  What if part of the reason he did that is because he had already managed to do that very thing with William? I'm not 100% convinced, but I think it's possible that William was substituted at some point.  It's easy to understand how Ford could know everything that happened in the parks, as he had access to all the systems (the ones Delos knew about and the ones he hid from Delos), but how would Ford know so many other things about Delos' decisions?  He always seems to be one step ahead of Charlotte and the board.  Perhaps he has an informant.  Perhaps he substituted William for a bot a while back and that is why he knows so much about Delos' corporate plans.  Perhaps William's daughter figured this out and she intends to hurt her father by showing him that he IS a bot.  With the current configuration, William bot would be very hurt by such a revelation, more so if his daughter were to manipulate his levers to make him feel maximum emotional pain.  Perhaps that is the game the daughter paid to play.  Her secret fantasy.

It is also possible that real William is still alive, being held prisoner somewhere by Ford.

 

The idea of Delos replacing key people makes some sense.   In reviews of this episode, people have been saying that the structure in the hole in the ground is a massive mainframe that holds the personalities and/or data of everyone in the world.    EXCEPT...that everyone in the world doesn't go to Westworld/Samurai World/Raj World/etc.  Only the super rich can afford it.  Using the parks as a means of studying the human mind and personalities doesn't really work because you don't get a sampling of human minds across a lot of social and economic levels.  Only the rich folks and probably only a certain slice of that sub-population.   The project has really only been characterizing the minds of a very certain type of person.

The corruption or darkness that the MIB has mentioned that only his daughter sees could very well be like Delores talking with early versions of Bernard and being the only one who could see the flaws in him.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's Previously.TV's EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of the episode!

Westworld Finds Its Heart

In 'Kiksuya,' Westworld takes an unexpectedly moving side trip to the Ghost Nation. See what questions are answered in our latest, tear-stained EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP!

[Dobian]

Dances with Robots

[buttercupia]

I was utterly mesmerized for this whole episode. Zahn was incredible. Best episode yet.

[mac123x]

19 hours ago, jane1978 said:

And the feature story today was so hard to accept. How could anyone replace character players in the middle of a running narrative and not think it will not confuse the rest of hosts? And why Dolores was reseted every day, living in an infinite groundhog day, while they kept the peacefull native nation live continuously. Their narrative seemed to be very simple, basically just a part of the background scenery, so there was no reason not to reset them every night. Ten years is a ridiculously long time and it seemed he could basically live free and go anywhere even before he fully woke up. Just imagine the amount of data his "brain" would have to storage and process. And he was the old model!

I think they were on a resetting loop.  Maybe not daily, but they did show Ake attacking a group of other hosts (settlers?  cowboys?  wasn't clear) repeatedly - axe in one guy's chest, slit the throat of another.  It looked like that was a set-piece for guests to participate in - "fend off the attack, be a hero" kind of thing. 

 

The odd part is that Ake never got killed in that loop until he deliberately provoked a guest.  Maybe his normal MO was to attack then escape when any guests fought back, or maybe it was such an awful boring narrative that guests rarely participated in it.

Edited June 12, 2018 by mac123x

[dr pepper]

On 6/11/2018 at 4:07 AM, Johnny Dollar said:

Just a heartbreaking episode.  No pun intended.

Is there a connection between Ake not being updated in ten years and his woke-ness?  I always liked Windows 3.1 the best anyway.

Sela Ward as William’s wife is just perfect casting. 

It would be Windows 3.1.1, that's the version that brought in networking.

[Athena]

2 hours ago, mac123x said:

The odd part is that Ake never got killed in that loop until he deliberately provoked a guest.  Maybe his normal MO was to attack then escape when any guests fought back, or maybe it was such an awful boring narrative that guests rarely participated in it.

Ake notes that he knew early on in the GN narrative that he could feel the ones (humans) he could not harm. He voiceovers this as he finds Logan and tells Logan that his people will find him. Since he wanted to avoid being taken and having his memory wiped, he probably was very risk adverse with guests. Most guests are probably not good shooters or fights and he was built to be a warrior and very intelligent. So he deliberately only attacked other hosts. 

The GN narrative may not have been as popular either. Sizemore wanted to up the violence in their narrative last season as he found the old loop boring. I do think there is metaphor with Native Americans as a whole and how Ake and his tribe were overlooked for many years by guests, by techs, and even by Ford himself. 

[shockermolar]

23 hours ago, jane1978 said:

I really feel WW is turning into another Lost. We have miniscule plot moves per episode and the time is filled with either tragic or moving stories of more and more side characters. And the feature story today was so hard to accept. How could anyone replace character players in the middle of a running narrative and not think it will not confuse the rest of hosts? And why Dolores was reseted every day, living in an infinite groundhog day, while they kept the peacefull native nation live continuously. Their narrative seemed to be very simple, basically just a part of the background scenery, so there was no reason not to reset them every night. Ten years is a ridiculously long time and it seemed he could basically live free and go anywhere even before he fully woke up. Just imagine the amount of data his "brain" would have to storage and process. And he was the old model!

I think that it depends on what the viewer is getting from the show. I'm in it for the storytelling and find the acting compelling, and I don't necessarily need either constant action or single plot movement to enjoy what the immersion.  The way Ford and then Delos is able to replace hosts without other hosts noticing or being confused is the same way that hosts can and then cannot see - for example - doors. Programming. "It doesn't look like anything to me."  And we also know that all the hosts have specific loops that they are programmed for, whether or not a guest drops into the narrative. Just as Dolores and Teddy had a specific loop, Ake and his tribe had a specific loop. Then Ake and others in his tribe were pulled and replaced, and given a new narrative loop - Ghost Nation killers. We even see his new loop three times -  with his deviations when he becomes aware that it's not the right world. Meanwhile, his original tribe continues within their loop.  We even know that AKE knows about the loop because he returns to the exact point in it again when he thinks he can find her returned to her same position in the tipi. And she IS only it's a new host. I do think it's odd in a kind of "grand scheme of things" way that hosts would continue their loops with no guests present, but we also have no idea how this future they are living in is powered or the technology that is in play so I am willing to suspend my disbelief and assume a natural, green power source keeps it all running without need for conservation. Same thing for data storage and processor speed. This is not just an alternate reality to our own, it's also a future reality. 

18 hours ago, saoirse said:

I am haunted by the images of Ake wandering through the complex. I dreamt about it, and thought of it often today.

This damn show.

So my husband pointed out that the maze image with the being in the center is also analogous to the mesa - a maze of hallways that the hosts are walked through to get to a central point of either maintenance or cold storage. And THAT made me think of the older native woman talking about the Delos employees as the beings from underground and THAT made me think of the way Maeve was drawing the Delos folk in their containment suits in the 1st season. There's a lot of layers here.

[magdalene]

My favorite episode of this show.  The acting was fantastic and the sheer emotion of it made me cry.

And having a seeming background character who in the old westerns would have been the "savage" other be an important hero of the narrative - it makes me happy.

[Law Mom]

All in all, a beautiful episode. The light from the setting sun in several scenes was breathtaking. I loved the slow, deliberate pacing, and how the tension and horror and pathos grew quietly throughout. It was a nice change from the constant shootouts and explosions.

How much time passed between Ake seeing the pit with the door and not being able to find it when he was with Kohana? Was it that he couldn’t see it because of his programming, or just that they finished building it and covered it up in the years that passed? I’ve lost track of the timelines. 

What is up with the lazy programming for Maeve’s daughter. Most of these hosts never shut up, but she had nothing to say during the whole episode. No, wait, she spoke in the flashback to the tea party. But not in the present timeline. Strange. And why doesn’t she have a name? Frankly, she gives me the creeps.