Super Social Analysis: Gender, Race, Ethnicity, and LGBT in Movies

[Popples]

5 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I mean, most of those actors don't look anything like their real life counterparts (Stockard Channing as Elizabeth Taylor maybe came the closest) but also... Good Christ. Unless he's a Michael Jackson impersonator and it somehow makes sense in the show... 

(The internet is not cooperating with me right now but picture that gif of Homer backing away into the bushes.)

There you go!

[Ms Blue Jay]

There's no way it makes sense that Joseph Fiennes is playing Michael Jackson.  

[Schweedie]

Jesus. How, and why? Just - who the hell okayed this?

[AuntieL]

Is it just me or does he look like Matt Lauer playing dress up? I mean, that's all I can see. That can't be the reaction they were going for. 

[proserpina65]

9 minutes ago, AuntieL said:

Is it just me or does he look like Matt Lauer playing dress up? I mean, that's all I can see. That can't be the reaction they were going for. 

Who knows?  It is a comedy, so maybe Matt Lauer in drag is what they were going for?

[Schweedie]

Aaaand it's been pulled, apparently. Thank god for that.

[methodwriter85]

Paris Jackson pulled a BIG justified hissyfit about it and they realized they weren't going to be able to get away with it. I still can't believe they thought they'd get away with it.

Anyway, there's a really funny line in La La Land that makes fun of "white teachers save minority student" films. "No, Jamal, I don't got to be tripping." Holy shit, I lost it at that line.

One of MadTv's best sketches shredded that trope.

Edited January 15, 2017 by methodwriter85

[Kel Varnsen]

On ‎2017‎-‎01‎-‎07 at 5:08 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

There was also this tweet, which brought tears to my eyes.  I had just seen Rogue One myself.  I didn't love the movie as I expected to - I'm a big fan of The Force Awakens - but of course it was not lost on me that there are 3 Asian men in the main cast.  Along with a Latino and a black man.  

Wait a sec, what exactly is wrong with Mr. Miyagi?

[Silver Raven]

2 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

Paris Jackson pulled a BIG justified hissyfit about it and they realized they weren't going to be able to get away with it. I still can't believe they thought they'd get away with it.

Anyway, there's a really funny line in La La Land that makes fun of "white teachers save minority student" films. "No, Jamal, I don't got to be tripping." Holy shit, I lost it at that line.

One of MadTv's best sketches shredded that trope.

This was a UK TV show.  UK was home of the Black and White Minstrels, which aired until 1978.

 

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Wait a sec, what exactly is wrong with Mr. Miyagi?

I'm too adorably young to have seen The Karate Kid (LOL - I'm kidding....).  But maybe an Asian kid in the 80s would want someone cool to look up to, and not some old guy who helps the hero in the movie find his way?  I am just guessing?

Anyways, I Googled it, and Asian people definitely have some conflicting feelings about this character.  It's pretty nuanced.  Go ahead and do the research if you care to learn.

A big thing is that Asian characters in Hollywood are just so rare in general that perhaps white Americans stereotyped Asians based on that one portrayal.  I'm just spitballing here, based on logic.

For example, I had Cassandra in Wayne's World, and she was pretty awesome.  But examples were few and far between.  I loved Ling Woo too, but a lot of people thought she was too 'stereotypical'.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[aradia22]

Quote

Wait a sec, what exactly is wrong with Mr. Miyagi?

I'm too adorably young to have seen The Karate Kid (LOL - I'm kidding....).  But maybe an Asian kid in the 80s would want someone cool to look up to, and not some old guy who helps the hero in the movie find his way?  I am just guessing?

I'm too young to have seen it in theaters and had no interest in looking it up... But I'm going to guess this. My understanding of the movie is that the character does get more backstory/development than normal but still, that's just counting crumbs.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalAsian

[topanga]

On 1/15/2017 at 1:28 AM, aradia22 said:

I'm too young to have seen it in theaters and had no interest in looking it up... But I'm going to guess this. My understanding of the movie is that the character does get more backstory/development than normal but still, that's just counting crumbs.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalAsian

Thanks for that funny--yet sad--article

[xaxat]

Chart from blogger Kevin Drum. 

Quote

But the best news comes from outside of the acting categories. The truth is that the Oscars for acting haven't been especially white in recent years. It's the Oscars for everything else that have been white. But this year, a record 9 percent of the nominees in the other categories were black. Some of this was due to the documentary category, which produced four films directed by African-Americans, but the rest of the list was blacker than usual too.

Any individual year is a crapshoot, of course, but this is a promising development. If you're truly interested in seeing more diversity in Hollywood, forget about acting. It's the "everything else" category to watch. That's the one that's been a white stronghold for 88 years and counting.

[DarkRaichu]

On 1/15/2017 at 0:28 AM, aradia22 said:

I'm too young to have seen it in theaters and had no interest in looking it up... But I'm going to guess this. My understanding of the movie is that the character does get more backstory/development than normal but still, that's just counting crumbs.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicalAsian

But but but this is the same potrayal in Kung Fu movies from Hong Kong and China/Taiwan too.  This is not a stereotype created in the US.  

Mr Miyagi in Karate Kid 2 got more screen time than any mentor/sifu figure in a typical 70s & 80s Kung Fu flicks

[angora]

But in Hong Kong and China/Taiwan, the "Magical Asian" mentor isn't the only Asian character.  The hero that he's guiding/teaching is Asian as well (along with pretty much everyone else.)  In US films, it feels thornier when the stereotypical character is 1) the only Asian person in the movie and 2) there purely to facilitate the white hero's growth.

Really happy to see Dev Patel get nominated for his work in Lion, not least of which because it was a bummer for Slumdog to get so much Oscar love back in 2008 but zero acting recognition.  Plus, Patel is the only the third actor of South Asian descent to EVER be nominated for an Oscar (the others are Ben Kingsley - multiple times - and Merle Oberon way back in 1935.)

Edited January 25, 2017 by angora
Edited for clarity

[JustaPerson]

And only 8 Asian actors have actually ever been nominated overall so it's a pretty exclusive club. Honestly I'm pleasantly surprised they bothered to nominate an Asian actor. Talk of diversity is pretty much always about black actors, so I'm always a bit surprised when people remember that us Asians exist too. Go Dev!

Edited January 25, 2017 by JustaPerson

[Silver Raven]

5 hours ago, JustaPerson said:

And only 8 Asian actors have actually ever been nominated so it's a pretty exclusive club. Honestly I'm pleasantly surprised they bothered to nominate an Asian actor. Talk of diversity is pretty much always about black actors, so I'm always a bit surprised when people remember that us Asians exist too. Go Dev!

I have to shamefacedly admit that I got confused when I heard an announcement of seven actors of color being nominated, and I said, "I heard there were six black actors."  I had forgotten about Dev Patel (whom I loved in Slumdog).  Mea culpa.

[topanga]

15 hours ago, JustaPerson said:

And only 8 Asian actors have actually ever been nominated so it's a pretty exclusive club. Honestly I'm pleasantly surprised they bothered to nominate an Asian actor. Talk of diversity is pretty much always about black actors, so I'm always a bit surprised when people remember that us Asians exist too. Go Dev!

It seems like the media forgets about other people of color (Latino, Asian, Native American, etc) and only mentions diversity at all when a member of a disenfranchised group brings up diversity--or the lack thereof. 

Gina Rodriguez (of 'Jane the Virgin' fame) regularly tweets and posts about the fate Latinos in Hollywood. I don't think she limits it to TV, though. 

[DarkRaichu]

19 hours ago, angora said:

But in Hong Kong and China/Taiwan, the "Magical Asian" mentor isn't the only Asian character.  The hero that he's guiding/teaching is Asian as well (along with pretty much everyone else.)  In US films, it feels thornier when the stereotypical character is 1) the only Asian person in the movie and 2) there purely to facilitate the white hero's growth.

I see where you are coming from.  However, that does not really irk me because the stereotyped characteristics of the role follow the mentor/sifu archtype that was established long before the popularity of martial arts in the US.

Specifically regarding Mr. Miyagi, I thought that role was a positive potrayal of what a sifu supposed to be considering the asshole (white) teacher from Cobra Kai.

[starri]

So, the only two movies GLAAD could find to nominate for wide-release feature were Moonlight and Star Trek Beyond.  Which is pathetic.

Limited release did better.

[raezen]

2 hours ago, starri said:

So, the only two movies GLAAD could find to nominate for wide-release feature were Moonlight and Star Trek Beyond.  Which is pathetic.

Limited release did better.

Oh wow. So this has been a great year for people of colour in terms of representation on film but awful for LGBT folks.

[starri]

3 hours ago, raezen said:

Oh wow. So this has been a great year for people of colour in terms of representation on film but awful for LGBT folks.

TV and ESPECIALLY comic books did much better.  But you're right, it's terrible.

I've only seen two of the five limited release nominees, and one of those is kind of shaky too.

[galax-arena]

‘Hidden Figures’ Director Defends Decision to Add Fictitious White Savior Scenes to Movie

Because god forbid white people be left out of the hero narrative for once? 

Quote

When interviewed by Vice, Theodore Melfi said there was nothing wrong with placing a white savior into the story.

“There needs to be white people who do the right thing,” he said. There needs to be Black people who do the right thing and someone does the right thing. And so who cares who does the right thing, as long as the right thing is achieved?”

Edited February 2, 2017 by galax-arena

[topanga]

4 minutes ago, galax-arena said:

‘Hidden Figures’ Director Defends Decision to Add Fictitious White Savior Scenes to Movie

Because god forbid white people be left out of the hero narrative for once? 

I agree completely, but I also viewed 'Hidden Figures' as a Disney-type feel-good movie whose main characters were based on real women. There were many "do the right thing" moments in the movie that never happened in real life. But some did. John Glenn asking for Katherine to review the numbers before he went into space actually happened (clearly, I'm not a mathematician or a rocket scientist), although it didn't take place minutes before lift-off, as it was portrayed in the movie. 

[Schweedie]

38 minutes ago, galax-arena said:

‘Hidden Figures’ Director Defends Decision to Add Fictitious White Savior Scenes to Movie

Because god forbid white people be left out of the hero narrative for once? 

Quote

 

When interviewed by Vice, Theodore Melfi said there was nothing wrong with placing a white savior into the story.

“There needs to be white people who do the right thing,” he said. There needs to be Black people who do the right thing and someone does the right thing. And so who cares who does the right thing, as long as the right thing is achieved?”

 

Man, that's a really terrible answer from Melfi there. "Who cares who does the right thing"?

I read the restroom scene a bit differently when I watched the movie, though - I didn't take it as a saviour moment; I took it as a reminder of how important it is that those with privilege and power do their part in tearing down barriers. That if you have that power, you have to be aware of it and use it. But I'm sure they could've found another way to get that across that didn't play on the saviour trope.

[Bruinsfan]

The tone of that scene struck me as really weird, because it seemed at first that the black computers who hadn't been privy to Katherine's meltdown (or even the ones who were told afterward) might think Harrison was taking away their facilities as punishment or something. They just saw an angry white boss smacking the restroom sign down with a crowbar; he didn't explain what he was doing until afterward.

[ChelseaNH]

It would have made more sense to see him tear down a whites-only sign so Katherine could use the most convenient restroom.  That way, he's doing the right thing, but out of concern for his project rather than concern for the oppressed.

[topanga]

I brought this post over from the "Actors We Just Can't Stand" topic because as I was writing it, I realized I was getting way, way off topic: 

I might be generalizing, but it seems that when we just can't stand male actors, it's because they're mean, crazy, dickish, or otherwise objectionable in real life (Tom Cruise, Vin Diesel, Jared Leto, Mark Wahlberg, Johnny Depp, Mel Gibson, Sean Penn). So that's understandable. 

But when it comes to female actors we can't stand, it often boils down to not liking their movie choices, their acting, or maybe they've possibly become overexposed or over-recognized for their work (JLaw, Anne Hathaway, Jennifer Aniston, Jennifer Lopez, Scarlett Johansson, Susan Sarandon). Sometimes not liking them as actors is enough to make us not like them as people. 

Of course, people on the "Actors We Can't Stand" thread have also talked about male actors whose work they just don't like (Nicolas Cage, Justin Timberlake), or female actors whose work they don't like and who aren't the nicest of people either (Claire Danes). 

But I wonder why our reasons for not liking male vs. female actors tend to be different. Again, just noticing trends. 

[AyeshaTheGreat]

5 hours ago, Schweedie said:

Man, that's a really terrible answer from Melfi there. "Who cares who does the right thing"?

I read the restroom scene a bit differently when I watched the movie, though - I didn't take it as a saviour moment; I took it as a reminder of how important it is that those with privilege and power do their part in tearing down barriers. That if you have that power, you have to be aware of it and use it. But I'm sure they could've found another way to get that across that didn't play on the saviour trope.

Overall, I didn't view any of the white people as "heroes" or "saviors" but since folks were cheering when Costner's character did certain things, I guess the director achieved what he wanted. 

To me, it was more of the not caring what happens to others until it affects you.  Costner's character didn't care about the bathrooms until it came into his sphere.  Nope, he gets no claps from me.

Edited February 2, 2017 by AyeshaTheGreat
I didn't want to reveal too much about the movie plot.

[ribboninthesky1]

8 hours ago, galax-arena said:

‘Hidden Figures’ Director Defends Decision to Add Fictitious White Savior Scenes to Movie

Because god forbid white people be left out of the hero narrative for once? 

This is why I, by far, prefer the book. I had...certain feelings when I found out the producing team was more or less white, but still glad the film was made and did well at the box office.  

[Dejana]

6 hours ago, ChelseaNH said:

It would have made more sense to see him tear down a whites-only sign so Katherine could use the most convenient restroom.  That way, he's doing the right thing, but out of concern for his project rather than concern for the oppressed.

IRL, the white bathrooms at NASA (or technically, its predecesor, the book gives the impression that by the time the agency took its present name, its facilities weren't formally segregated by race anymore) weren't labeled "whites only". It was only the "colored" restrooms and cafeteria spaces there that were labeled for minorities to know "their place". But since the whole sequence was largely invented for the movie anyway, it could have played out like you suggested.

I looked at that series of events in the movie as would-be Oscar clips for Taraji and Kevin Costner more than anything else. 

Edited February 3, 2017 by Dejana

[Schweedie]

9 hours ago, AyeshaTheGreat said:

Overall, I didn't view any of the white people as "heroes" or "saviors" but since folks were cheering when Costner's character did certain things, I guess the director achieved what he wanted. 

To me, it was more of the not caring what happens to others until it affects you.  Costner's character didn't care about the bathrooms until it came into his sphere.  Nope, he gets no claps from me.

Good point with the bolded. That's definitely also something to take away from it.

There were no cheers or anything like that for any of those things when I saw it, but it's interesting how much (white) people generally seem to enjoy scenes like that. Is it because they'd - well, we - would like to think they'd do the same thing and be the "hero"? I wonder how many people who cheered for those scenes would actually take an active stand against an equivalent today.

[proserpina65]

23 hours ago, AyeshaTheGreat said:

Overall, I didn't view any of the white people as "heroes" or "saviors" but since folks were cheering when Costner's character did certain things, I guess the director achieved what he wanted. 

To me, it was more of the not caring what happens to others until it affects you.  Costner's character didn't care about the bathrooms until it came into his sphere.  Nope, he gets no claps from me.

To be fair, a lot of people are oblivious to oppression unless it affects something they personally care about.  Not saying that makes his character's actions any more clap-worthy, but it does make them somewhat realistic.

[Joimiaroxeu]

I'm starting to wonder about Kevin Costner. He's been doing this "white savior" thing in several movie roles over the past few years. Not sure what to make of it.

[KatWay]

I tend to agree with you there, also because you simply won't find any A-List female stars with the same kind of baggage attached as male A-listers like Gibson, Depp, Cruise, Penn, etc. The worst I've heard of big female actresses is some being called arrogant and snobbish. Out of touch (Gwyneth), trying to hard (Anne Hathaway), obnoxious (JLaw). You won't find one who's an alcoholic, has substance abuse problems, used racist slurs in the past, or has had accusations of domestic abuse flung their way. Or worse, when it comes to directors - Woody Allen, Polanski.

I imagine there are actresses like that out there, who have severe problems, but they don't make it big. They don't get chance after chance to redeem themselves, they don't have the industry protecting them. Women are held to a different standard.

[xaxat]

5 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I'm starting to wonder about Kevin Costner. He's been doing this "white savior" thing in several movie roles over the past few years. Not sure what to make of it.

It's been more than a few years.

[Joimiaroxeu]

1 minute ago, xaxat said:

It's been more than a few years.

Heh, I was only going to stretch as far back as The Bodyguard but Dances with Wolves works too. This guy?

[DarkRaichu]

6 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Heh, I was only going to stretch as far back as The Bodyguard but Dances with Wolves works too. This guy?

Maybe that is his shtick, like how Julia Roberts shows off her teeth by laughing/smiling in each of her movie.  Or how Robin Williams (RIP) gave some kind of speech or monologue in every one of his movie

[Joimiaroxeu]

I don't think it's a shtick. For the most part his body of work hasn't been made up of that kind of role. But I've noticed in the past few years they seem to be happening more frequently. It's interesting, I think.

Now a shtick would be how a certain marquee actor has at least one moment in virtually all of his movies over the past couple of decades where his character is running.

[DarkRaichu]

4 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Now a shtick would be how a certain marquee actor has at least one moment in virtually all of his movies over the past couple of decades where his character is running.

To be fair, sliding in socks on hardwood floor thing would be impossible to do in most movies :D :D :D

[adhoc]

Okay, I never heard of Jon Garcia's "The Falls," but it's a trilogy dealing with two young gay Mormons who fall in love but whose love is hampered (I might say "doomed") by LDS strictures.  My local library just got in the 3rd movie--I haven't seen the first two installments--and it looked very interesting. I checked it out of the library and watched it yesterday. It takes place 7 years after the two men meet (movie 1 of the trilogy), fall in love, and apparently have an on-again-off-again relationship, trying to do "the right thing" as good men of faith. 

Yowza. The acting was superb. Both leads were excellent; Nick Ferrucci's vulnerability and physicality especially blew me away. As a straight non-Mormon woman, I can't vouch for the accuracy of the gay male Mormon experience presented in this movie. But it seemed like it could be pretty authentic. If you're looking for a movie where two men express their mutual love sweetly and passionately, both emotionally and physically, this might be worth checking into. I thought it was excellent.  

[starri]

I watched part of the first one, and was really unimpressed by it.  Maybe I was just having an off-day.  Maybe there was a learning curve for the director.

Those small indie movies are really dicey.  Sometimes they hit, but more often I have to grade on a curve.

[adhoc]

starri, I looked at the IMDB reviews for the first two installments--yeah, those didn't exactly knock everyone's socks off, did they?  Also, I watched one of the extras that came on the third movie DVD. (Oh, BTW, the third movie is "The Falls: Covenant of Grace.") In the extra, Jon Garcia (who co-wrote and who directed the movie) says that they had very little funding for the first movie, so there was, like, one camera, hardly any crew--really bare-bones. Once they got picked up for distribution, they had a little more money, meaning that movie #2 had better production values. And by the time TF:CoG was shot, they had an even better budget, 2 cameras, etc.  

I still would like to see the first two movies, just out of curiosity.  And if you ever do decide to see TF:CoG, I'd be curious as to your thoughts.  As I said, I was really impressed with the acting of the two leads. I totally bought that they were in love. But it sounds like they were a lot less believable as lovers (or however intimate they were) in the first film.

[JustaPerson]

Between Rogue One and Guardians 2, I'm really excited about Asians in big blockbusters actually getting lines and stuff to do. I'm deliberately excluding Katanna from Suicide Squad because she said maybe one line (??) and barely did anything

[methodwriter85]

SNL used their recurring Totino Pizza skit to make fun of European lesbian movies:

Anyone ever notice that lesbian love scenes tend to be slow and sensual in these kind of movies with soft-focus and lighting, while the love scenes for gay men tend to be hurried and aggressive? (When they happen.)

I'm curious to see how they'll handle the love scenes in Call Me By Your Name. I think given the topic, they'll kind of walk around the actual sex. (If it actually happens.) Still...I've had a thing for Armie Hammer since The Social Network so I'm there.

[starri]

6 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I'm curious to see how they'll handle the love scenes in Call Me By Your Name. I think given the topic, they'll kind of walk around the actual sex. (If it actually happens.) Still...I've had a thing for Armie Hammer since The Social Network so I'm there.

It's not even the sex that happens, it's the...other stuff.

Also, adapting a novel about a same-sex relationship written by a straight man.  Of course.

[Blergh]

OK, this is a classic one but it NEEDS to be mentioned on this thread:

 

 In the 1938 screwball comedy Bringing Up Baby thanks to madcap heiress Katharine Hepburn's shenanigans, stuffy professor Cary Grant winds up having to answer a door wearing a woman's dressing gown. Anyway, when he tries to explain to the society matron WHY he's in such a getup, he gets so frustrated in having to recount the whole story that he winds up literally leaping in the air and exclaiming "Oh, I just went GAY all of a sudden!"

    Back then 'gay' usually meant happy but among more sophisticated theatrical folks, it was already being used as a euphemism for homosexual and the scriptwriters would later admit that that's exactly what they were trying to say but they counted on the censors only knowing the then-more common definition (and it's believed to have been one of the earliest known usages of the term in that context in a mainstream movie).

Edited February 7, 2017 by Blergh

[galax-arena]

Scarlett Johansson discusses the whitewashing in Ghost in the Shell

"I certainly would never presume to play another race of a person. Diversity is important in Hollywood, and I would never want to feel like I was playing a character that was offensive."

She explained that she approached the role with a focus on gender, not race. Adding, "having a franchise with a female protagonist driving it is such a rare opportunity. Certainly, I feel the enormous pressure of that — the weight of such a big property on my shoulders."

Hey, Scarlett, you know what's rarer? Having a franchise with an Asian female protagonist.

Of all the stereotypically white feminist things to say... 

[topanga]

13 hours ago, galax-arena said:

 

Scarlett Johansson discusses the whitewashing in Ghost in the Shell

 

I especially like the last paragraph of the article. 

Later in the chat she touched on Hollywood's wage gap problem, and her decision to speak out about the issue last year. While it's great to see someone with such a high profile shedding light on gender inequality, it's a bit of a bummer that she failed to see how those issues are compounded by giving diverse roles to white actors. 

Edited February 9, 2017 by topanga

[Ms Blue Jay]

It hurts my feelings to read this shit:

Female stars here give a lot of revelations about their degrading experiences on set:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/arianelange/theres-something-wrong-with-hollywood?utm_term=.uiRpJrjV8#.qqAQ0D4w7

responding to @topanga:  

I'm not going to give JLaw and ScarJo a free pass on their shit.  Lot of evidence for them being white feminists.  I actually love ScarJo movies but her comments on Asian people recently have really upset me.

I understand your point totally.  Someone like Hathaway has done nothing offensive.  I could see how Susan Surandon being outspoken on her politics would upset some people.  A lot of people who don't like Trump are not exactly happy with her anyone but Hillary campaign.

Jennifer Lawrence H A S been overhyped.  She's what, 25 and she's been nominated for 3 Oscars or something? Do you think a black or Asian woman with her talent would ever be recognized that way or put in that many films or given that many opportunities?  After Passengers bombs she'll be just fine and probably head another franchise or two.  Am I supposed to feel inspired that a beautiful young blonde with a perfect body does well in Hollywood?  That older men see her as a muse and let her act in parts that require her to be age 17 to 70 or whatever? Because I don't.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay