Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Churchhoney]

15 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

YIKES!

Well, that's the entire basis of the Protestant religion. That fiery hell thing doesn't necessarily exist in other religions, and the Catholic branch of Christianity is considerably less pushy on that "believe your faith, not your lying logic and eyes" thing. lol

Edited January 20, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Lady Edith]

Along these lines, I once attended a church ladies group meeting where an Orthodox priest told us a story about a criminal back in the old west. He was on the lam, running from several  crimes (including murder) and was out in the wilderness. Raised Greek Orthodox, he was in the habit of reciting the prayers his grandmother taught him each night before bed.  Well one fateful night, Satan had come to find him and take him to hell.  But because the criminal recited the right prayers out of habit, Satan was frightened off and the criminal was spared from a life of pitchforks and singed underwear.  At least for that night. The criminal didn’t redeem himself, didn’t stop the life of crime, he just said some words out of habit.  The ladies just nodded in complete understanding and I was the only one there who gave the priest some much-deserved side eye.  It was then that I seriously began to question things.  I still have my faith, but my faith in the church is meh.  To me it’s not so much a place of healing and faith formation as a place for those in power to make rules and expect others to blindly follow them because Jesus.  I was told growing up to never question what the church says.  Why?  Didn’t God give us these amazing brains to think and seek to understand?  

[GeeGolly]

49 minutes ago, Lady Edith said:

Along these lines, I once attended a church ladies group meeting where an Orthodox priest told us a story about a criminal back in the old west. He was on the lam, running from several  crimes (including murder) and was out in the wilderness. Raised Greek Orthodox, he was in the habit of reciting the prayers his grandmother taught him each night before bed.  Well one fateful night, Satan had come to find him and take him to hell.  But because the criminal recited the right prayers out of habit, Satan was frightened off and the criminal was spared from a life of pitchforks and singed underwear.  At least for that night. The criminal didn’t redeem himself, didn’t stop the life of crime, he just said some words out of habit.  The ladies just nodded in complete understanding and I was the only one there who gave the priest some much-deserved side eye.  It was then that I seriously began to question things.  I still have my faith, but my faith in the church is meh.  To me it’s not so much a place of healing and faith formation as a place for those in power to make rules and expect others to blindly follow them because Jesus.  I was told growing up to never question what the church says.  Why?  Didn’t God give us these amazing brains to think and seek to understand?  

Amen.

[crazycatlady58]

2 hours ago, Lady Edith said:

Along these lines, I once attended a church ladies group meeting where an Orthodox priest told us a story about a criminal back in the old west. He was on the lam, running from several  crimes (including murder) and was out in the wilderness. Raised Greek Orthodox, he was in the habit of reciting the prayers his grandmother taught him each night before bed.  Well one fateful night, Satan had come to find him and take him to hell.  But because the criminal recited the right prayers out of habit, Satan was frightened off and the criminal was spared from a life of pitchforks and singed underwear.  At least for that night. The criminal didn’t redeem himself, didn’t stop the life of crime, he just said some words out of habit.  The ladies just nodded in complete understanding and I was the only one there who gave the priest some much-deserved side eye.  It was then that I seriously began to question things.  I still have my faith, but my faith in the church is meh.  To me it’s not so much a place of healing and faith formation as a place for those in power to make rules and expect others to blindly follow them because Jesus.  I was told growing up to never question what the church says.  Why?  Didn’t God give us these amazing brains to think and seek to understand?  

And this is why we should not put our faith in "powers and principalities " but in Christ. Sorry folks I know of topic.

[Minivanessa]

In some of the other topics here we've discussed various things that Duggars have posted on social media. IIRC we talked quite a bit along the way about phrases and statements that are almost "dog whistle" fundie wording. Like Jinger's recent posts about being so "blessed" and "not despising motherhood."

I found the following post, and comment, on Facebook today and thought I'd share them here.

IMO the Duggars not only spout Christianese, they do a special fundie version of it. Sure, they tone it down for their mass media and TLC presence, but it's there nevertheless.

Here's my cut-and-paste of the Facebook post by Jen Hatmaker (who attended Oklahoma Baptist University, to give you an idea of her background, and who is a very funny writer, BTW):

Quote

 

Jen Hatmaker

January 30 at 2:59 PM · 

One thing that "fell away" for me these last two years was my tolerance for weird Christian talk. It was my first language & thus entirely familiar, but now it raises the hair on the back of my neck. It all feels coded, a warning signal to keep insiders in and outsiders out.

If you are well-versed enough, it can be strategically employed to ignore the dire pain of people, especially people for whom the sterile language harmed immeasurably. It lacks any tender spirit, any beating heart. Plus it sounds super weird. Why can't Christians talk normal?

Defaulting to a cold recital of a verse in the face of someone's pain or identity or tension? YOU CAN MISS ME WITH THAT. None of it sounds like Jesus at all. It is designed to impress, to stay superior, to judge with a clear conscience, but the fruit of it is rotten.

Plus it is lazy. You know what takes spiritual maturity? Engaging in real conversations like a grown up. Caring for someone's soul and belovedness. Managing nuance. Listening like a brother or sister instead of a self-appointed headmaster. Jesus is on his own throne.

Christians, we just need to DO BETTER. We need to stop talking weird, coded, Christianese. It only sounds righteous to religious people. Let's be human people, flesh and blood. Stop hiding behind words that protect our spiritual pride. We don't need to defend Jesus; we need to represent him.

 

Her post drew 1,700+ comments and I didn't read them all - but there is this one. I didn't include the commenter's name because, well though it's a public post I don't think she's a public figure like a speaker or author:

Quote

 

And plus also when people seize the opportunity to brag, boast, or otherwise strut about their perfect life and shroud it in a cloak of “blessed.” 

“I got a new Rolex Mercedes Gulfstream! BLESSED.”
“My entire family gets along and is healthy and intact and all together and nobody suffers from addiction! BLESSED.”
“Spending the 30th anniversary of our blissfully trouble-free marriage on this yearlong cruise around the galaxy! Pics in comments. BLESSED”
“My fertility journey finally ended after a long 40 days and 40 nights! BLESSED.”
“Did you see my new diamond shoes?! BLESSED”

No, Boo. 

Blessed are the poor. 
Blessed are the broken. 
Blessed are the forsaken. 
Blessed are the suffering. 
Blessed are the persecuted. 
And praise Jesus, Blessed are the HUMBLE. 

You are fortunate, and good for you. I too am fortunate, undeserving of that fortune, and grateful beyond measure. I also sometimes post that fortune to the world through social media to share my good news with those who love us. No begrudgement here, and I’m truly happy for your prosperity! I’d never wish misfortune on anyone, but the contraindicated idea to your advertisement here is that anyone that doesn’t have what you have is NOT blessed. That God’s favor only falls on those with ease and riches and struggle-free existence. That’s how your words make those that have less fortune than you feel. Slighted. Ignored. Less than. And that’s just false.

You enjoy your reward here on earth, Sugar Plum. Imma go ahead and hold out for mine...

 

And Jen also posted a link to this video, "Shoot Christians Say":

Edited February 3, 2019 by Jeeves

[awaken]

Love your post!  So much there to think about- I’ll  be back to comment later when I have more time! The video was hilarious- traveling mercies, echoing a prayer, the unspoken requests- brings back such memories!! 

[awaken]

I just read this article today on the Purity Movement- thought it might be interesting to some here!   https://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/a26026217/sexual-abstinence-joshua-harris-purity-movement-scam/?fbclid=IwAR2mkhlP-N5F-mW5OpHelB_HNRmTlz744rUbswU7KRwkAgmjPNPt5Cqz5dQ

[Churchhoney]

17 minutes ago, awaken said:

I just read this article today on the Purity Movement- thought it might be interesting to some here!   https://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/a26026217/sexual-abstinence-joshua-harris-purity-movement-scam/?fbclid=IwAR2mkhlP-N5F-mW5OpHelB_HNRmTlz744rUbswU7KRwkAgmjPNPt5Cqz5dQ

Thanks!....Hadn't heard about the stuff Josh H came out with in November. But I do remember the repeated feints at disavowing some of this that he's made over, what?, about seven years now? Yeesh. 

I suppose the desperate male hard-liners are now on the lookout for another young face to front this stupid movement -- Gotta get those hussies back in line. Awful but not surprising to hear about a bunch of people who were told to hate all their natural urges getting traumatized by the whole thing. 

[awaken]

 I saw in the article he has a documentary about disavowing IKDG as well,   Available on Amazon prime. 

[queenanne]

Wow, that's kind of insulting - I mean, better late than never, but I know people who absolutely believed this; and his self-rebuttal credits himself with having come up with the concept of "giving away pieces of your heart", so the Duggars should be up in arms too, IMO.  I also probably wouldn't be quite so incensed if he hadn't been so autocratic about it.  For all he knows, plenty of impressionable teens he led astray would have been happy sticking at first base until they felt old enough to handle sex.  "Well, gee whiz, now I feel bad.  Now I've had time to reflect and realize that the Bible doesn't actually SAY a quarter of what I kept saying it did!"

[Churchhoney]

54 minutes ago, queenanne said:

Wow, that's kind of insulting - I mean, better late than never, but I know people who absolutely believed this; and his self-rebuttal credits himself with having come up with the concept of "giving away pieces of your heart", so the Duggars should be up in arms too, IMO.  I also probably wouldn't be quite so incensed if he hadn't been so autocratic about it.  For all he knows, plenty of impressionable teens he led astray would have been happy sticking at first base until they felt old enough to handle sex.  "Well, gee whiz, now I feel bad.  Now I've had time to reflect and realize that the Bible doesn't actually SAY a quarter of what I kept saying it did!"

Also to blame, I'd say, is the Christian publisher that published and promoted the book and the passel of religious "leaders" and "thinkers" who jumped onboard....That they were all so eager to jump aboard a theological/philosophical/moral train driven by a 21-year-old who pretty much knew nothing emboldened him plenty, I'm sure. Enough to go on speaking tours and pontificate his 21-year-old ass off and then go on to publish book after book with his extreme prescriptions about how people must live.....based on nothing. 

[Temperance]

FJ talked a lot about Harris. He was kind of a male Sarah Mally raised in this lifestyle and basically parroting what he was raised to believe. But his documentary makes him out to be the biggest victim of the book and is really about him. It doesn't pay as much attention to how it affected so many others. Some of the participants say they regret being in his documentary. 

[queenanne]

10 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Also to blame, I'd say, is the Christian publisher that published and promoted the book and the passel of religious "leaders" and "thinkers" who jumped onboard....That they were all so eager to jump aboard a theological/philosophical/moral train driven by a 21-year-old who pretty much knew nothing emboldened him plenty, I'm sure. Enough to go on speaking tours and pontificate his 21-year-old ass off and then go on to publish book after book with his extreme prescriptions about how people must live.....based on nothing. 

Well, I think like one of the subjects of the original linked article said, there was something to be said for women getting his opinion on "what a cute single Christian guy might find attractive", because that's not without merit; but if he or his publisher lacked the wisdom/responsibility to say "This is what *I* want, give it a try and see if you like it, I'm not saying that there is only one way to live your life...", that's a different matter I think. 

Then again, you had the unknown lesbian driving herself crazy trying not to "tempt men" with her frontal hugs... I think she of all the young women had the best chance to say "Hey, your problem, dude, I understand biology but I'm not trying to attract" to herself, had she but known.

Edited February 7, 2019 by queenanne

[Minivanessa]

Over in the Lauren and Josiah topic we've been discussing today's announcement (timed of course to promote tonight's premiere of a new season of the show) that Lauren had a miscarriage last October. 

The Duggars of course follow Bill Gothard and similar legalistic fundamental protestant Christian thinkers, who teach that a miscarriage is a punishment from God. I found a few articles that confirmed the Gothard/IBLP/ATI position on this. I refuse to spend hours going down this internet rabbit hole, but thought I'd share some links I found if anyone wants to explore this briefly or at further length.

My Mother's Day Story, from a woman who struggled for years with infertility, includes this: 

Quote

I’ve been to so many seminars and heard countless sermons and lectures on those verses and the message was always clear: a marriage blessed by God was one that produced many children. A large family was evidence of Gods approval and pleasure in the lives of the parents. With each new child born, His blessing multiplied. A childless couple on the other hand… God was withholding His blessing on that marriage. Infertility and miscarriage were spoken of as the result of sin, of Gods disappointment. Perhaps they’d married against their parents’ wishes? Or hadn’t remained pure enough before marriage? Regardless of the reason, the result was clear: God withheld His ultimate blessing of children from the undeserving. This teaching followed me into my marriage.

And repeatedly broke my heart.

A pastor in the Midwest breaks it down. He actually knows, reviews, and quotes, the Biblical texts that Gothard and his ilk cite and twist to "support" their legalistic teachings.

And just because he's a kick-ass writer, here's a blog post about Hobby Lobby and Bill Gothard - and the Duggars - from Micah J. Murray, which doesn't zoom in on miscarriages exactly. It ends with this:

Quote

[W]hen these toxic teachings of Bill Gothard are promoted by folks who have become mascots of American Christianity, I am deeply concerned. Where many Christians see “sincerely held religious beliefs”, I see poison. Where many see charming old-timey family values, I see a cult-like system of abusive and authoritarian beliefs.

. . . I’ve seen what Bill Gothard is selling, and it’s not good. I’m tired of seeing Christians buying the same poison wrapped up with a bow and sold in a craft store or on reality TV.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Jeeves
A bit of brevity

[awaken]

I’m going to spend some time with those links as time allows!  Those viewpoints really make me hurt for someone like Michael Bates. The heartache these women must go through when they aren’t as “blessed” as their sisters, mothers, and friends. The shame must be immense. 

[Barb23]

7 minutes ago, awaken said:

I’m going to spend some time with those links as time allows!  Those viewpoints really make me hurt for someone like Michael Bates. The heartache these women must go through when they aren’t as “blessed” as their sisters, mothers, and friends. The shame must be immense. 

I thought of Michaela & Erin right away when we were discussing Lauren's miscarriage.  I wonder how it works though. Is Erin let off the hook for thinking her miscarriages were caused by sin since there was a medical reason that caused hers? 

[Minivanessa]

8 minutes ago, Barb23 said:

I thought of Michaela & Erin right away when we were discussing Lauren's miscarriage.  I wonder how it works though. Is Erin let off the hook for thinking her miscarriages were caused by sin since there was a medical reason that caused hers? 

I don't think so. Because IIRC the Gothard materials cited in that pastor's blog post, teach that God will overcome those medical conditions for those who are righteous enough.

[MamaMax]

8 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Over in the Lauren and Josiah topic we've been discussing today's announcement (timed of course to promote tonight's premiere of a new season of the show) that Lauren had a miscarriage last October. 

The Duggars of course follow Bill Gothard and similar legalistic fundamental protestant Christian thinkers, who teach that a miscarriage is a punishment from God. I found a few articles that confirmed the Gothard/IBLP/ATI position on this. I refuse to spend hours going down this internet rabbit hole, but thought I'd share some links I found if anyone wants to explore this briefly or at further length.

My Mother's Day Story, from a woman who struggled for years with infertility, includes this: 

A pastor in the Midwest breaks it down. He actually knows, reviews, and quotes, the Biblical texts that Gothard and his ilk cite and twist to "support" their legalistic teachings.

And just because he's a kick-ass writer, here's a blog post about Hobby Lobby and Bill Gothard - and the Duggars - from Micah J. Murray, which doesn't zoom in on miscarriages exactly. It ends with this:

So their God kills babies in utero to punish the parents? That's some fucked up shit.  Those poor girls. I am adopted because my mom was not able to have a successful pregnancy, She had many, many miscarriages, like 8-10 before finally needing a hysterectomy.  She confided in me (in my adulthood) that she thought for a time that maybe she wasnt able to have a baby becasue God or mother nature or whatever "knew" she wouldn't be a good mother. I of course told her that was ridiculous. She was an amazing mom (aunt/grandma/nanny....in fact, all babies loved her! she was a total baby whisperer.).  Broke my heart to hear it from her. 

[Marshmallow Mollie]

I saw this on an Ask Me Anything in the Fundie Snark forum on Reddit. I thought it was interesting about the family making sure they appeared unified

[awaken]

Oooh, interesting!  I need to check out the reddit fundie snark forum!  

[Ohiopirate02]

I was out earlier today at the mall and  I saw some young fundies out in the wild.  Ankle-length skirts, banana curls and foundation two shades too dark caked onto their faces.  After seeing them again i realized how much they are really assholes.  I could tell they are the type to tell their employers they cannot work on Sundays because of their faith but have no problem with others working.  If keeping the Sabbath holy was so important to them they would eschew going anywhere on a Sunday except church.  Bloody hypocrites.

[Meow25]

Fundy story!  

 We are mainline Christians who live in a VERY small town.  Our town has about 3000 people, and our public school is combined with a few other towns and boasts graduating classes of around 100 kids each year.  One of my boys runs cross country in the fall, and this year they had a new kid join.  He was odd.  He really had no social skills to speak of, but what was really weird is that he wouldn't wear shorts.  We are a northern town beside a Great Lake, but in our area, it gets quite warm (80s) and humid.   My son found out that he had been homeschooled, but was starting public school this year because his mom was having a hard time teaching him math.  (kudos?)  Anyway, he started telling my kid that he wasn't allowed to wear shorts because they were really women's underwear.  My kid, raised in a mainline church, asked him, "Are you in a cult?"  (LOL) he replied, "That's what people say about us."  

Fast forward to the first race.  The coach tries to explain to the parents that he may not be able to race because they have uniform rules through the state.  They petitioned the state to allow him to run in sweatpants (!) for religious reasons.  

My husband runs a recreational sports league through our church, which is great because our town doesn't have a rec center or activities.  During the league's volleyball signups...he has a team of denim skirt wearing women and a few of their husbands/kids.  Here come to find out....it was the SAME family as the sweatpants runner!  They play volleyball in Denim skirts (girls) or jeans and polo shirts (guys).  DH told them that they might want to wear appropriate sports attire, and he was told that they "dress modestly" because they are Christian.  He calls them the Denim Cult team (but only in his own head!).  He was pretty amused to learn that his shorts make him a cross-dresser.  LOL.  

 One more note-  my son has this kid in two of his classes.  Sadly he was never been taught how to write a proper essay, doesn't understand citation, has been caught plagiarizing but doesn't understand what that is or why it's bad and is about 4 years behind in math.  I guess that at least he's been allowed to go to school.   He's not allowed to read most of the novels that they read in class...so he often is assigned another book that is approved by his parents.  

Edited February 22, 2019 by Meow25
pasted twice?

[Marshmallow Mollie]

On 2/17/2019 at 3:19 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I could tell they are the type to tell their employers they cannot work on Sundays because of their faith but have no problem with others working.  If keeping the Sabbath holy was so important to them they would eschew going anywhere on a Sunday except church.  Bloody hypocrites.

I have noticed Chick Fil A has work done on Sundays. From time to time I notice a floor cleaning service van, plumber van, etc, there on a Sunday. Recently they worked on the parking lot on a Sunday. It makes me so mad! Either your policy is that you are closed on Sundays or it’s not.

[questionfear]

17 hours ago, Marshmallow Mollie said:

I have noticed Chick Fil A has work done on Sundays. From time to time I notice a floor cleaning service van, plumber van, etc, there on a Sunday. Recently they worked on the parking lot on a Sunday. It makes me so mad! Either your policy is that you are closed on Sundays or it’s not.

Not defending CFA-but their attitude has always been they give their personal employees sundays off, not that no one should work on Sunday. Also, CFA has been known to call employees in on Sundays. Notably, CFA had employees come in on the Sunday after the Pulse shooting in Orlando to donate food and water to blood donors: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2016/06/14/chick-fil-a-opens-on-sunday-to-feed-orlando-blood-donors/85868494/?_sm_au_=isVvvHFD76FqfSts

I still think the management team at CFA holds abhorrent views, but I will grudgingly give them credit for doing something genuinely Christian and helping their community instead of being hypocrites (we all know the Duggars would have mumbled about prayers and then said it was because of the devil). I've never understood the deep love for CFA's food personally-I've had it but it didn't knock my socks off. I know it's heresy but I'd take a McD's chicken nugget over CFA. 

[kokapetl]

Australian Catholic Bigwig convicted on child sex charges.

‘Cardinal George Pell, once the third most powerful man in the Vatican and Australia’s most senior Catholic, has been found guilty of child sexual abuse after a trial in Melbourne.

A jury delivered the unanimous verdict on 11 December in Melbourne’s county court, but the result was subject to a suppression order and could not be reported until now.

A previous trial on the same five charges, which began in August, resulted in a hung jury, leading to a retrial.

Pell, who is on leave from his role in Rome as Vatican treasurer, was found guilty of sexually penetrating a child under the age of 16 as well as four charges of an indecent act with a child under the age of 16. The offences occurred in December 1996 and early 1997 at St Patrick’s Cathedral, months after Pell was inaugurated as archbishop of Melbourne.’

[lookeyloo]

4 hours ago, questionfear said:

Not defending CFA-but their attitude has always been they give their personal employees sundays off, not that no one should work on Sunday. Also, CFA has been known to call employees in on Sundays. Notably, CFA had employees come in on the Sunday after the Pulse shooting in Orlando to donate food and water to blood donors: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2016/06/14/chick-fil-a-opens-on-sunday-to-feed-orlando-blood-donors/85868494/?_sm_au_=isVvvHFD76FqfSts

I still think the management team at CFA holds abhorrent views, but I will grudgingly give them credit for doing something genuinely Christian and helping their community instead of being hypocrites (we all know the Duggars would have mumbled about prayers and then said it was because of the devil). I've never understood the deep love for CFA's food personally-I've had it but it didn't knock my socks off. I know it's heresy but I'd take a McD's chicken nugget over CFA. 

I think I agree with what you are saying.  The owners are the problem in my opinion.  I have a gay son.  He and his husband and friends stopped eating at CFA.  So did we.  Then last year the teenage  grandson was offered a job (through a friend) at the local CFA in his town.  He didn't know how we would all feel.  We said "good, eat their food and take their money".  The franchise owners are lovely and treat the employees very well.  When we are in their town we go there and order food just to get him to take our money (he humors the grandparents). When the gay son eats there, he donates equal or more money to a good cause who fights some of these views.  I know to each his own and that's fine.  This is a decision we have made for ourselves, not saying anyone else should.

[questionfear]

1 hour ago, lookeyloo said:

I think I agree with what you are saying.  The owners are the problem in my opinion.  I have a gay son.  He and his husband and friends stopped eating at CFA.  So did we.  Then last year the teenage  grandson was offered a job (through a friend) at the local CFA in his town.  He didn't know how we would all feel.  We said "good, eat their food and take their money".  The franchise owners are lovely and treat the employees very well.  When we are in their town we go there and order food just to get him to take our money (he humors the grandparents). When the gay son eats there, he donates equal or more money to a good cause who fights some of these views.  I know to each his own and that's fine.  This is a decision we have made for ourselves, not saying anyone else should.

I agree. I'm a lesbian Jewish woman, so both times I've entered a CFA I've half worried someone might try an exorcism on me. 

I hope your grandson does well at his job! At his age, any job in food service is an excellent learning experience, and hopefully at the employee level he is at, it's just about working there and not the evangelizing that comes from the c-suite.

[kokapetl]

17 hours ago, kokapetl said:

Australian Catholic Bigwig convicted on child sex charges.

‘Cardinal George Pell, once the third most powerful man in the Vatican and Australia’s most senior Catholic, has been found guilty of child sexual abuse after a trial in Melbourne.

A jury delivered the unanimous verdict on 11 December in Melbourne’s county court, but the result was subject to a suppression order and could not be reported until now.

A previous trial on the same five charges, which began in August, resulted in a hung jury, leading to a retrial.

Pell, who is on leave from his role in Rome as Vatican treasurer, was found guilty of sexually penetrating a child under the age of 16 as well as four charges of an indecent act with a child under the age of 16. The offences occurred in December 1996 and early 1997 at St Patrick’s Cathedral, months after Pell was inaugurated as archbishop of Melbourne.’

How can anyone be expected to trust organized religion anymore? 

We should start our own religion. First rule: no children. 

Edited February 27, 2019 by kokapetl

[Churchhoney]

33 minutes ago, kokapetl said:

How can anyone be expected to trust organized religion anymore? 

We should start our own religion 

I vote for letting God manage their own relationship with people.  

Cuz....Bill Gothard, Doug Phillips,...Joseph Smith....L. Ron Hubbard.  ;  )

[lookeyloo]

50 minutes ago, questionfear said:

I agree. I'm a lesbian Jewish woman, so both times I've entered a CFA I've half worried someone might try an exorcism on me. 

I hope your grandson does well at his job! At his age, any job in food service is an excellent learning experience, and hopefully at the employee level he is at, it's just about working there and not the evangelizing that comes from the c-suite.

Agree. And we are Jewish too - not that there is anything wrong with that (thank you Seinfeld!)

[Churchhoney]

One of the few black grads of The Master's Seminary finally got fed up and described the garden-variety racism that permeates the work of Jer's hero John MacArthur, his education system and his whole current anti-social-justice crusade that Jer somehow managed to be a prominent and enthusiastic "first signer" of  (and this doesn't even go near the massive misogyny that, unlike the racism -- which tends to be denied and shoved under the rug -- is not only openly and aggressively embraced by MacArthur and company but advertised as a chief virtue of the institution -- That it follows God's commands in educating only men for any jobs of actual significance. Men men men men men. Well, white men, really, since they're the top....they're the Coliseum): 

"For 11 years (4 as a student/staff at TMUS & 7 as an alumnus/church planter) I have kept my concerns mainly to myself, daring to share them with only a small group of people who’ve encouraged me to keep moving forward or who I felt could actually bring about change. For many years I have “bitten my bottom lip” publicly, so to speak. In an attempt to honor those who have impacted my life, I have applied such force and pressure to that lip as to cause the shedding of blood. Yet quietly over the last few years, it has become increasingly difficult to keep biting that lip and wiping away the blood, and tears.

"Since leaving seminary and planting a multicultural church in the inner-city of Montgomery, AL, my appreciation for the gospel and how it impacts racism and justice has only grown. As I watch the perseverance of my neighbors, live among them, and see the tangible struggles of their lives, Christ in me rises up and issues a call to action. As I see believers from various cultures and economic backgrounds forge real gospel community, deferring to one another and believing the best of one another, my appreciation for the gospel in action strengthens. To hear Dr. MacArthur and Grace To You say/write narrow-minded, inconsiderate, and frankly unbiblical things about the intersection of the gospel and racism has had a profound effect on me. It has impacted me to the point of saying, “Enough is enough.” I no longer care that I’m a low level nobody challenging a giant. I no longer care if, like others before me, I’m labeled a “black sheep” by TMUS for lovingly articulating concerns. As a matter of fact, the cavalier attitude of Phil Johnson (executive director of Grace to You), and Dr. MacArthur make it perfectly clear that even if I remain silent, I’m already a “black sheep.” Their comments/writings do nothing to consider the circumstances of anyone other than upper middle class, Republican-leaning white men (I’m neither republican nor democrat), and minorities who are accustomed to that culture. So in reality, my comments today cannot make me what I already feel like, “a black sheep”. I’m just graduating from a “black sheep” to a “blacker sheep.” It’s a promotion that I’m finally willing to accept.

"Therefore, no matter what Dr. MacArthur says about the gospel and social justice in his current series hosted by Grace to You, certain truths will not change. No matter how few people hear or agree with what I have to say, the reality of the difficulties many have experienced at TMUS will remain. No matter how they try to change the subject from the real elephant in the room (probation and the potential loss of accreditation by WASC for a lack of integrity mixed with a culture of fear and intimidation) to the issue of social justice, the truth doesn’t change. It is worth noting that the vast majority of the data of the WASC report was given by my white brothers and sisters who are also hurting. I’m speaking up to encourage them, and to let them know they are not alone. I leave my thoughts with you not to change your mind, but to ensure that before God I can sleep at night knowing that I didn’t shrink back from saying hard things about beloved institutions and individuals. I write and make my thoughts public to fight for many others, who have not yet been heard or who, for a host of reasons, do not believe that they can speak up. The truth is Dr. MacArthur’s own leadership and institutions show little concern for the African American community and other minority students who grew up in a African American minority context. Every time Dr. MacArthur tells his 50 year old civil rights story about “his good friend” John Perkins and visiting the murder scene of MLK, I often wonder why those experiences have translated into very little consideration towards marginalized people. Please consider the following realities.

"In the entire TMS curriculum, which is 98 credit hours and approximately between 100 – 150 required books to read, not one book is written by a person of African heritage. Additionally, very few people of African descent are even explored within the historical theology classes. We traced the history of Christianity from 100 A.D. to our present day. Of all the historical figures we studied, I only remember Athanasius being identified as someone from African origins. What majority culture Christians don’t realize is that their world is dominated by Christians of European heritage. Minorities are often looking for faces and contributions of people who share their ethnic identity. Not for the sake of being superior. We simply long to understand how people of a similar ethnicity have contributed to redemptive history. You would think that since Dr. MacArthur is such “good friends” with John Perkins we would have read at least one of Dr. Perkins books or even learned about his legacy. However, even our classes that covered the history of Christianity in the United States were void of African American contributions.

"Why does this matter? It sends a not so subtle message that the only great thinkers are European thinkers. The only great thoughts are European thoughts. Thus, Christianity is inadvertently portrayed as the white man’s religion. It’s heartbreaking and hurtful. When African Americans or people of color are in fact mentioned, it’s usually in a derogatory way for having bad theology, etc.

"The truth is that Christianity would have struggled to survive tremendously without Northern Africans and even African Americans. I just had to learn of them on my own time. My seminary didn’t think those contributions were worth mentioning. I was furious when I was made to write a review of my almost 700 page American Church History book. I read the book intently looking for black or brown people and their contributions. I did not find them. But I did find that Bob Jones was included in the book as a hero of the faith. Bob Jones University refused desegregation until the early 1970’s, and then only conceded at the threat of losing their tax exempt status, which occurred in 1983. They did not overturn their rule banning interracial dating until the year 2000. This was also selfishly motivated to help the then candidate (George W. Bush) win the presidency, who took heat for giving a speech at a university that had a ban on interracial dating. (I reluctantly visited Bob Jones University in April, 2018 and I was pleasantly surprised by their repentance in living out the gospel among all people).  

"Again, I was furious. I noted my frustration in a blistering review of the book that could devote pages to Bob Jones’ positive contributions to Christianity and could not so much as include a couple of paragraphs on any black person with significant Christian contributions even if they were not perfect. Clearly, Bob Jones wasn’t perfect. I’m sure the professor remembers the book review because I doubt he has received many like it. You can also ask Dr. Paul Felix (the only full-time African American Professor who is now retired). I ranted in his office behind closed doors many a days with many tears. If not for him and his care for me as an African American student with a heart to one day impact the African American community, I would have surely quit. I specifically remember him telling me after ranting, “Calm down before you get kicked out of school.”

"Imagine that…being in such a state of anger over how whitewashed your seminary education is that you say things that flirt with the possibility of getting you kicked out of school. I know if myself and many of my African American brothers felt this way, some of my brothers of Asian and Latino descent felt the same way or worse. I pray they will tell their stories too. Their perspectives are often left out of these conversations, but their voices are much needed.

"It is hypocritical for Dr. MacArthur or anyone to say “just preach the gospel” thinking that will solve all issues. It doesn’t even work in his own church and the institutions he leads. It certainly will not work in your communities and churches. Hear me well. The true gospel is sufficient. The true gospel makes peace and destroys dividing walls of hostility. The true gospel looks racism and partiality in the face and condemns it to the pit of hell from which it came. It does not build barriers. We have a gospel that gives dignity and value and worth to all peoples. Shouldn’t our institutions that train us to take the gospel to all nations do the same? I distinctly remember when Peter, a Jew, first preached the gospel to the Gentiles in Cornelius’ home. Peter was awestruck by a divine revelation. “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality” (Acts 10:34).  Then why is there so much partiality at TMUS under the leadership of Dr. MacArthur in curriculum decisions? In my next post I will continue making my argument of partiality in their preaching/worship curriculum and much more."

https://pastortstrongtowerawp.wordpress.com/2018/08/22/the-truths-that-dr-macarthurs-social-justice-series-wont-change/

Also: Jer couldn't produce a piece of writing this rhetorically and logically sophisticated if his life depended on it. He's trying to rise high -- in a group where there's clearly stiff competition -- by sheer sucking-up power. I'm still of two minds about whether that approach has a shot.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Churchhoney]

And here's MacArthur on what you do when your adult child comes out. .... He says it with a smile, in a smooth and polished voice, in a professionally produced slick video, in a room full of dark wood and polished brass, and while wearing a very well kept (and expensive) suit. (see below)        So it's probably all okay. 

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/06/23/john-macarthur-gay-children-two-rivers-gone-fbc-norfolk-gender-issues-james-macdonald-mars-hill-fight-church-sex-abuse/

1. John MacArthur: Bad advice on how to treat your adult child who tells you he/she is gay.

Basically, if he is a Christian, get the church to throw him out. If he is a non-Christian, show compassion but hit him over the head with the gospel.™

Where would we be without the ever present Matthew 18 which is adapted for each and every situation?

“If that adult child professes Christ, claims to be a Christian, then that becomes an issue for confrontation of the sternest and strongest kind because that falls under Matthew 18. 

He says the church must confront them using Matthew 18. If they  do not repent, the church must throw them out. Later, he goes on to say the following, again about a child who professes to be a Christian.

If they profess to be a Christian, you have to alienate them, you have to separate them. You can’t condone that; it’s inconsistent with the profession of Christ. So, you isolate them; you don’t have a meal with them; you separate yourself from them. You turn them over to Satan, as it were as scripture says.”

So, what happens when you shun them and something awful happens. Here is one woman's agonizing story. Please read the whole account if you have time.

(Mom to son) We love you. We are so glad you are our son. But you are young, and your sexual orientation is still developing. The feelings you've had for other guys don't make you gay. So please don't tell anyone that you are gay. You don't know who you are yet. Your identity is not that you are gay; it is that you are a child of God.

We thought we understood the magnitude of the sacrifice that we — and God — were asking for. And this sacrifice, we knew, would lead to an abundant life, perfect peace and eternal rewards. Ryan had always felt intensely drawn to spiritual things; He desired to please God above all else. So, for the first six years, he tried to choose Jesus. Like so many others before him, he pleaded with God to help him be attracted to girls. 

And so, just before his 18th birthday, Ryan, depressed, suicidal, disillusioned and convinced that he would never be able to be loved by God, made a new choice. He decided to throw out his Bible and his faith at the same time and try searching for what he desperately wanted — peace — another way. And the way he chose to try first was drugs.

Eventually they reconciled.

And a new journey was begun, one of healing, restoration, open communication and grace.Lots of grace. And God was present every step of the way, leading and guiding us, gently reminding us simply to love our son and leave the rest up to Him.

But, due to the years of drug abuse, Ryan slipped and died.

And I grieve, not only for my oldest son, whom I will miss every day for the rest of my life, but for the mistakes I made. I grieve for what could have been, had we been walking by faith instead of by fear.

What do we do with our love, John? Trash it and be good, little Matthew 18 robots, always applying it without fail or deviation in each and every situation?

Edited March 24, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Sew Sumi]

Nice mentor there, Jeremy. NOT! I hope the Master's Seminary totally loses its accreditation soon, rendering any degree Jeremy might earn there utterly worthless.

[lookeyloo]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

And here's MacArthur on what you do when your adult child comes out. .... He says it with a smile, in a smooth and polished voice, in a professionally produced slick video, in a room full of dark wood and polished brass, and while wearing a very well kept (and expensive) suit. (see below)        So it's probably all okay. 

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/06/23/john-macarthur-gay-children-two-rivers-gone-fbc-norfolk-gender-issues-james-macdonald-mars-hill-fight-church-sex-abuse/

1. John MacArthur: Bad advice on how to treat your adult child who tells you he/she is gay.

Basically, if he is a Christian, get the church to throw him out. If he is a non-Christian, show compassion but hit him over the head with the gospel.™

Where would we be without the ever present Matthew 18 which is adapted for each and every situation?

“If that adult child professes Christ, claims to be a Christian, then that becomes an issue for confrontation of the sternest and strongest kind because that falls under Matthew 18. 

He says the church must confront them using Matthew 18. If they  do not repent, the church must throw them out. Later, he goes on to say the following, again about a child who professes to be a Christian.

If they profess to be a Christian, you have to alienate them, you have to separate them. You can’t condone that; it’s inconsistent with the profession of Christ. So, you isolate them; you don’t have a meal with them; you separate yourself from them. You turn them over to Satan, as it were as scripture says.”

So, what happens when you shun them and something awful happens. Here is one woman's agonizing story. Please read the whole account if you have time.

(Mom to son) We love you. We are so glad you are our son. But you are young, and your sexual orientation is still developing. The feelings you've had for other guys don't make you gay. So please don't tell anyone that you are gay. You don't know who you are yet. Your identity is not that you are gay; it is that you are a child of God.

We thought we understood the magnitude of the sacrifice that we — and God — were asking for. And this sacrifice, we knew, would lead to an abundant life, perfect peace and eternal rewards. Ryan had always felt intensely drawn to spiritual things; He desired to please God above all else. So, for the first six years, he tried to choose Jesus. Like so many others before him, he pleaded with God to help him be attracted to girls. 

And so, just before his 18th birthday, Ryan, depressed, suicidal, disillusioned and convinced that he would never be able to be loved by God, made a new choice. He decided to throw out his Bible and his faith at the same time and try searching for what he desperately wanted — peace — another way. And the way he chose to try first was drugs.

Eventually they reconciled.

And a new journey was begun, one of healing, restoration, open communication and grace.Lots of grace. And God was present every step of the way, leading and guiding us, gently reminding us simply to love our son and leave the rest up to Him.

But, due to the years of drug abuse, Ryan slipped and died.

And I grieve, not only for my oldest son, whom I will miss every day for the rest of my life, but for the mistakes I made. I grieve for what could have been, had we been walking by faith instead of by fear.

What do we do with our love, John? Trash it and be good, little Matthew 18 robots, always applying it without fail or deviation in each and every situation?

Well that mother's story is heartbreaking on so many levels.  When my son came out, I said "Okay, do you still want meatloaf for dinner?"  His stepfather, Mr. lookeyloo said "oh okay, are the plans still the same?"  as in nothing the way we feel about you is different.  I can't imagine parents turning their backs on their children.  The son is married and our son in law had a rough time.  His parents threw him out when he was 16!  16!!!!!  Jesus, you know.  We are involved with the HRC and know a lot of gay/lesbian/transgender and they have some equally heartbreaking stories to tell.  Mr. lookeyloo and I sadly are among the few of the  older crowd that are accepting.  For some of the younger ones, sometimes it is getting easier.  On a case by case basis.  So sad.  

[Churchhoney]

15 minutes ago, lookeyloo said:

Well that mother's story is heartbreaking on so many levels.  When my son came out, I said "Okay, do you still want meatloaf for dinner?"  His stepfather, Mr. lookeyloo said "oh okay, are the plans still the same?"  as in nothing the way we feel about you is different.  I can't imagine parents turning their backs on their children.  The son is married and our son in law had a rough time.  His parents threw him out when he was 16!  16!!!!!  Jesus, you know.  We are involved with the HRC and know a lot of gay/lesbian/transgender and they have some equally heartbreaking stories to tell.  Mr. lookeyloo and I sadly are among the few of the  older crowd that are accepting.  For some of the younger ones, sometimes it is getting easier.  On a case by case basis.  So sad.  

Thank goodness for people like you and Mr. lookeyloo. 

Very sad the way we continue to treat people.  It'd be good if by some kind of process we were all forced to walk some miles in various other people's moccasins. It might change a few things. 

[Churchhoney]

39 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Nice mentor there, Jeremy. NOT! I hope the Master's Seminary totally loses its accreditation soon, rendering any degree Jeremy might earn there utterly worthless.

Amen.

Unfortunately, though, I expect that losing the accreditation would only improve the value of the degree in the eyes of some! Notably those who are most devoted to this kind of "thinking." -- The "thinking" that says stuff like "how dare you suggest  we might have anything to learn from reading what African-American Christians have had to say?" and "If your child proclaims that they're both gay and a Christian, refuse to eat a meal with them ever again and tell them (literally) to go to hell." 

The ignorance and hatefulness and bigotry of somebody standing up in their fancy suit and preaching this kind of shit in the 21st century just boggles my mind. And it is not justified in any way, shape, or form by the actual Bible, which, despite being an atheist, I've read cover to cover more than once. This comes straight out of the spiteful brains of narrow-minded arrogant jerks who believe they're the kings of the world and that if you're not exactly like them you can just go jump. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Sew Sumi]

Yeah, it would certainly qualify as persecution in their circles. 

[Zella]

The religious college I went to is accredited by a normal organization, but there is apparently an internal push to dump it for a Christian organization's accreditation that would be less legitimate-seeming to normal people but would emphasize their fundie credentials. So, yeah, I could see the loss of accreditation seeming like a good thing to some of these people, though they're going to be up shit creek without a paddle if they try to find work outside of their little circle. 

[GeeGolly]

11 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

The ignorance and hatefulness and bigotry of somebody standing up in their fancy suit and preaching this kind of shit in the 21st century just boggles my mind.

I agree 100%. Unfortunately it seems about 50% of the USA doesn't.

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I agree 100%. Unfortunately it seems about 50% of the USA doesn't.

Yeah, this sure is the very very unfortunate part.

... And it doesn't help that they have "leaders" in expensive suits egging them on. I especially hate the way the MacArthur types put a really "educated" "nice" "upper-crust" "super-respectable" "smiling" "clean and polished" "intellectual" face on it. 

If it appeared in its true face as simply greed, fear and low-class meanness and power hoarding it might have slightly less appeal. 

"Mean Girls" only get followed and envied when they wear designer clothes and live in the most expensive neighborhoods.

Just hoping the number is slipping at least a little below the halfway mark these days, though.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Ohiopirate02]

After reading about the disaffected African-American pastor and John MacArthur's not-so-closeted racism, I have to leave this here.  

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

After reading about the disaffected African-American pastor and John MacArthur's not-so-closeted racism, I have to leave this here.  

True true. We should never be shocked at anything like this.

However, I do remember getting bashed up and down on several internet forums on varying subjects throughout the Obama administration because I occasionally dared to note that, no, we had not now transformed into a "post-racial society." 

I remember several people ranting at me over the years that "You! You! You are the race problem! You are keeping this alive! America is post-racial! We've clearly proven it! We've elected an African-American president! Stop your talk about racism! You are the problem!"  

So with apparently millions of people being convinced that the whole thing was behind us by 2008 -- and the widely revered Jesus-y head of The Master's Seminary also saying that the whole thing is behind us and attesting to his lifetime status as a strong non-bigot   -- it's probably not surprising that people who want to believe we're past it believed him. And still do in some cases, I suppose. 

He may believe it himself, actually. I guess I'd be surprised if he doesn't. 

The hypocrisy in yourself that you don't even know is there is always the most dangerous kind for everybody.

Which is nervous-making....

Edited March 25, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Albanyguy]

9 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

I remember several people ranting at me over the years that "You! You! You are the race problem! You are keeping this alive! America is post-racial! We've clearly proven it! We've elected an African-American president! Stop your talk about racism! You are the problem!"  

Just like the people who insist that homophobia no longer exists because "you guys can get married now".

[Churchhoney]

Just now, Albanyguy said:

Just like the people who insist that homophobia no longer exists because "you guys can get married now".

Exactly. 

[Churchhoney]

38 minutes ago, kbott925 said:

Is there something in their religion that is against having a normal job?? The one runs a car business I guess. And outsider Abbie was a nurse, but probably won't be anymore. 

Not in their religion but in their power cult. Gothard says no one should work for anyone else. You shouldn't work for anybody but your own family because if you work for somebody else you might inadvertently find yourself working for someone who isn't godly, supports all the wrong stuff, etc. 

He doesn't mention that it's also an excellent ploy to keep every kid you have completely under your thumb at all times. That's a primary purpose, though, since it's always Gothard's primary purpose. 

[BradandJanet]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

Not in their religion but in their power cult. Gothard says no one should work for anyone else. You shouldn't work for anybody but your own family because if you work for somebody else you might inadvertently find yourself working for someone who isn't godly, supports all the wrong stuff, etc. 

He doesn't mention that it's also an excellent ploy to keep every kid you have completely under your thumb at all times. That's a primary purpose, though, since it's always Gothard's primary purpose. 

It's also a ploy to keep as much money as possible "in house" to support the cult. 

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, BradandJanet said:

It's also a ploy to keep as much money as possible "in house" to support the cult. 

Yep. Gothard and L. Ron Hubbard have a lot in common. 

[JoanArc]

1 hour ago, BradandJanet said:

It's also a ploy to keep as much money as possible "in house" to support the cult. 

And pesky outsiders with their CPS and liberal ideas from getting too close.

[Minivanessa]

9 hours ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

But does that mean that they can't pick up the pieces and start holding personal services in their own home again at any time the Holy Spirit feels compelled to lay it on their hearts (or they decide the heat is off them and they can get away with it)? Is there any group or anything approaching general acceptance which can make decisions on this type of question?

Bringing this over from another topic.

The answer to the bolded question: Nope. As someone said over on the other topic, JB can do what he wants. 

AFAIK the Duggars move in the religious circles known as Independent Fundamental(ist) Baptists. As Wikipedia says: 

Quote

Independent Baptist churches (some also called Independent Fundamental Baptist, Independent Fundamentalist Baptist or IFB) are Christian congregations, generally holding to conservative (primarily fundamentalist) Baptist beliefs. The term independent refers to the doctrinal position of church autonomy and a refusal to join any affiliated Baptist denomination, convention or hierarchical structure.

That last bolded part is the reality. Actually there are lots of independent (non denominational) churches in the USA these days, not limited to those of the IFB persuasion. Such a church may network with other churches of compatible theology but doesn't belong to a larger denominational convention or association. It's a trend, according to this article.

Even the Southern Baptist Convention, that huge denomination, doesn't have a fat rule book as to who can be ordained to minister to an SBC church. This is from their FAQ page:

Quote

What is the procedure for ordination in the SBC?

Actually, there is no standard process or policy concerning ordination in the SBC. The SBC is not a church; as such, it neither ordains nor “recognizes” ordination. Both initial ordination and recognition of previous ordination are addressed strictly on a local church level. Every cooperating Southern Baptist church is autonomous and decides individually whether or not to ordain an individual, or whether to require ordination of its pastor or ministry staff. When a church senses that God has led a person into pastoral ministry, it is a common practice to have a council (usually of pastors) review his testimony of salvation, his pastoral calling from the Lord, and his qualifications (including theological preparation and scriptural qualifications according to 1 Timothy 3:1–7 and Titus 1:7–9) for pastoral ministry. Based upon that interview the church typically decides whether or not ordination would be appropriate.

Some cooperating churches may require seminary training from an SBC seminary prior to ordination, while others may not; such a requirement is entirely up to the church.

Of course, every cooperating church is free to approach ordination in the manner it deems best.

If you are a member of a cooperating Southern Baptist church and sense the Lord may be leading you into ministry, you may want to speak to your pastor and ask for his assistance.

As we've discussed over in the Dillards topic, the SBC's missionary arm, the International Missions Board, has more stringent requirements for its missionaries (and their spouses) than the SBC has for its ministers. However, I assume that most SBC churches as a matter of practice, look for ministers with seminary education and training. 

The Duggars are definitely in the world of DIY Christianity. If the Lord has called you to preach to your neighbors, then you can set up a storefront church - and answer to nobody but God in how you go about it. If the Lord has called you to spread the Word in foreign countries, the you just gather your donations and go. And, answer to nobody but God. 

Kind of attractive, that bit about answering to nobody but God, isn't it?

What could possibly go wrong?

Heh.

[doodlebug]

3 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Bringing this over from another topic.

The answer to the bolded question: Nope. As someone said over on the other topic, JB can do what he wants. 

AFAIK the Duggars move in the religious circles known as Independent Fundamental(ist) Baptists. As Wikipedia says: 

That last bolded part is the reality. Actually there are lots of independent (non denominational) churches in the USA these days, not limited to those of the IFB persuasion. Such a church may network with other churches of compatible theology but doesn't belong to a larger denominational convention or association. It's a trend, according to this article.

Even the Southern Baptist Convention, that huge denomination, doesn't have a fat rule book as to who can be ordained to minister to an SBC church. This is from their FAQ page:

As we've discussed over in the Dillards topic, the SBC's missionary arm, the International Missions Board, has more stringent requirements for its missionaries (and their spouses) than the SBC has for its ministers. However, I assume that most SBC churches as a matter of practice, look for ministers with seminary education and training. 

The Duggars are definitely in the world of DIY Christianity. If the Lord has called you to preach to your neighbors, then you can set up a storefront church - and answer to nobody but God in how you go about it. If the Lord has called you to spread the Word in foreign countries, the you just gather your donations and go. And, answer to nobody but God. 

Kind of attractive, that bit about answering to nobody but God, isn't it?

What could possibly go wrong?

Heh.

Such a foreign concept to me being a heathen Catholic where priests have a very specific training and curriculum and have, at the very minimum, a Masters' Degree before ordination.  Nuns, slackers that they are, only need a Bachelors'.  Even seminarians, who spend at least 6 years post high school before becoming priests, are not turned loose to preach and teach without direct supervision from an experienced priest.

Considering how strict the Baptist Church is about following the literal Bible as they see it, it seems ironic that their clergy are sort of fly-by-night in their training.