Gimme That Old Time Religion

[GEML]

I think the Duggars used to have more theology (Gothard theology, but at least some theology) about 20 years ago. But over time that's been replaced with a set of political beliefs and a handful of rules regarding sexuality.

[BetyBee]

I think the Duggars used to have more theology (Gothard theology, but at least some theology) about 20 years ago. But over time that's been replaced with a set of political beliefs and a handful of rules regarding sexuality.

Not just the Duggars.  Religion seems to be so political in general now.  I attended a LCMS service this past Sunday, my first in years.  The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod of my youth was not at all political, but as GEML has mentioned, politics mixed in starting in the late 70s. It's now reached the point where it all seems political to me.  We used to go to church to worship, not to be lectured on politics and I never felt as I do today, that I don't belong.  It's sad.  I think the Duggars talk more about politics than they do the Gospel.  People like the Duggars are very focused on boasting of their "good works," as if that will get them into heaven and keep others out.  

Edited August 4, 2015 by BetyBee

[phoenix62]

I hope I'm placing this comment in the right place. I followed a link on here to look at a pic on the duggar's page and I saw that they posted this status:

Duggar Family Official

8 hrs ·

John- David’s favorite Bible character is Job. Who is your favorite?

Now, I was going to be evil and say the serpent or some such nonsense, but I didn't post anything. O.o

I'd guess Job would be Jana's favorite bible character, I'm sure she could relate:/ Perhaps John-David feels like Job having to deal with his parents' craziness. He doesn't live with the others, does he?

[Micks Picks]

I don't think John David lives with them.  It would be beyond bizarre if he did.  I feel kind of sorry for him, actually.  He didn't get attention like his big brother did.  Josh got to go work with Daddy and campaign with him all during the time that Josh was molesting sisters and at least one other.  I wonder if John David thought Josh was in a way rewarded even though Doofas taking him might just have been trying to redirect Josh's attention and get him out of the house, where the abuse occurred.  It may be one reason why he seems socially awkward.

[becca3891]

While it's not as iron-clad a rule as unmarried daughters living at home until marriage, it's still preferred for unmarried sons, too. Do we have any reason to believe John David doesn't live at home? I think he does. Because of his work, he wasn't on camera much the last couple of seasons, but I don't think that's any reason to assume he moved out.

[questionfear]

While it's not as iron-clad a rule as unmarried daughters living at home until marriage, it's still preferred for unmarried sons, too. Do we have any reason to believe John David doesn't live at home? I think he does. Because of his work, he wasn't on camera much the last couple of seasons, but I don't think that's any reason to assume he moved out.

He owns a house, though no one can confirm if he lives there or rents it out. 

[Sew Sumi]

I'm pretty sure that it was confirmed that he was renting it out. 

[Micks Picks]

No sorry, I just can't imagine a man his age, running a half-assed towing business and a sort-of constable, running home to mommy and daddy's where he sleeps in a big room with all his brothers and has, what, 7 little sisters around, down to ages 5 and 6.  No.  Can't happen.  Somebody lives around there.  Put up a go-pro.  Check in with the other constables.  Come on, Inquisitor on-line rag sheet, send somebody out there to get the real poop on this.  Jezebel on line, perfect for them.  

[frenchtoast]

For a second I thought I was in another topic because discussing where John David lives is surely not about the rules of the faith the Duggar's follow.

 

Please stay on topic. If you find that the response to something, like does David live at home, doesn't belong in the topic, a simple, "Taking this to the Othe Kids topic," will move the conversation to the correct area so that those who want to post about religion and the various tenets of religion can do so without interrupting a conversation.

 

Thank you.

[NewDigs]

John- David’s favorite Bible character is Job. Who is your favorite?

Now, I was going to be evil and say the serpent or some such nonsense, but I didn't post anything. O.o

I'd guess Job would be Jana's favorite bible character, I'm sure she could relate:/ Perhaps John-David feels like Job having to deal with his parents' craziness. He doesn't live with the others, does he?

Job? Anyone picks Job as their favorite?

I guess they will be well prepared for their futures.

Job?

[GeeGolly]

Job? Anyone picks Job as their favorite?

I guess they will be well prepared for their futures.

Job?

Maybe this is why:

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters." 

 

Sounds very Duggarish.

[NewDigs]

Maybe this is why:

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters." 

 

Sounds very Duggarish.

True dat!

Plus there is then the added bonus of being able to blame Satan for their current "suffering".

If he/they're able to comprehend anything beyond what you quoted!

But still, Job? Can't help it.

[Dejana]

Bringing over a quote from the Jim Bob/Michelle thread to respond here:

 

The arrogance Michelle displays in thinking her bikini body could cause the breakdown of a marriage is now carried through to her religion.
    The idea that you're so very important that God micromanages every moment of your life, even while there's other things that could use his attention - like little kids dying of diseases that shouldn't even exist, it is the most self-centered way of having faith.

 

 Conversely, I grew up hearing sermons railing against those who argue that "God is too busy saving lives/stopping wars to worry about [Johnny's math test, Susie finding her car keys, etc]." They were painted as the arrogant ones, for assuming that God's mind/attention span works like a human's, albeit on a bigger scale. To say that God doesn't have time to care or concern Himself with something is to deny the Lord's infinite nature. The belief is that God can do whatever He wants to do, at any time, anywhere around the world, and isn't stuck limiting Himself with priorities like mere mortals. I don't know if the family would put it exactly like that, but any argument that God has better things to worry about than Duggar modesty or courtship rules would probably go in one ear and out the other with them.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Dejana

[Churchhoney]

Bringing over a quote from the Jim Bob/Michelle thread to respond here:

 

 

 

 

 Conversely, I grew up hearing sermons railing against those who argue that "God is too busy saving lives/stopping wars to worry about [Johnny's math test, Susie finding her car keys, etc]." They were painted as the arrogant ones, for assuming that God's mind/attention span works like a human's, albeit on a bigger scale. To say that God doesn't have time to care or concern Himself with something is to deny the Lord's infinite nature. The belief is that God can do whatever He wants to do, at any time, anywhere around the world, and isn't stuck limiting Himself with priorities like mere mortals.

 

Yep, that's what I've heard, too.

 

But it  would make a lot more sense if there weren't so very many things like the Holocaust, numerous other genocides, civilian war casualties, tsunamis, wildfires, the insatiable and unturned hearts of serial killers, fogbound highway accidents involving 80 cars, cholera epidemics in poverty-stricken countries, and devastating and incurable dementia and deep depression that strike and torment little old ladies for years when they're lived good lives and really would just like to die. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. I can't get my mind around an infinite God whose priorities apparently require ignoring such massive devastation at the same time as, according to other people, he's helping them win talent contests and do well on their math tests or find nice godly boyfriends. Nobody can convince me that more heartfelt prayers have arisen from American Idol winners than from the millions who've suffered and perished in human- or natural force-caused violence. To me, there's something way off about a "supreme being" who's helping somebody out with a math test while leaving a little kid trying to clear a field of landmines so his family can garden it without a clue of where the mine is that'll blow off his legs. Seems as if the small things always get this God's attention while huge things get ignored!

 

This is a big reason why I'm an atheist. Even if there is a God, if these are that "supreme being's" priorities, then I have no interest in endorsing him or her as particularly supreme! Anybody who appears to care to help Susie find her car keys but doesn't appear to care about rescuing tortured children dying in agony in concentration camps or of some burrowing worm disease isn't making very good use of his or her "infinite" capacities, in my opinion. It God's so infinite, why can't he or she do both?

 

And, of course, the answer to this is -- You are arrogant! God is far wiser and larger than you! And someday you will understand! You will see the whole picture! Well, I've read dozens of books attempting to explain how all this evil and pain continue to exist in a world in which other people are supposedly being provided with God's assistance to pass their road tests or make a frigging touchdown in the NFL. And I haven't seen one book that actually manages to explain it in any other way than "God will make it all clear in time!" That being the case, I assume that that time will come when I'm dead and no longer have need of what would be awfully good information to help reconcile me to the horrors that exist all over this world, striking good people, including people who pray, while others are bragging that their prayers have brought a solution to some tiny first-world problem. If this is what God is, he or she is just a callous jerk using people as a plaything and torturing them further by spitting on their struggles to understand. .... God surpasseth our understanding and leaveth our reason in the dust -- but why would a God have given us those things in the first place if they were worthless for true understanding? And does that mean we're not supposed to rely on them for anything? I never see an answer to this either!

 

To me, this whole thing is sort of a God in the image of a nasty powerful person. Sort of a God in the image of Jim Bob! And I'm so not interested in a God like that. (Doesn't help that a lot of the people who make this argument most strongly about God also don't believe in, say, evolution. I have a hard time believing that those people are right about an issue this profound!)

[BradandJanet]

Modern religions remind me of the Greek gods: squabbling among themselves and toying with humans when bored or angry. 

[Churchhoney]

Modern religions remind me of the Greek gods: squabbling among themselves and toying with humans when bored or angry. 

 

Exactly. Now, I know this is arrogant, but I think that small people are going to envision a small God. If there is some kind of person-like being behind the universe, I just can't believe that it's a being that's petty in the way a lot of religious talk strikes me as being.

[kokapetl]

Yep, that's what I've heard, too.

But it would make a lot more sense if there weren't so very many things like the Holocaust, numerous other genocides, civilian war casualties, tsunamis, wildfires, the insatiable and unturned hearts of serial killers, fogbound highway accidents involving 80 cars, cholera epidemics in poverty-stricken countries, and devastating and incurable dementia and deep depression that strike and torment little old ladies for years when they're lived good lives and really would just like to die. Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc. I can't get my mind around an infinite God whose priorities apparently require ignoring such massive devastation at the same time as, according to other people, he's helping them win talent contests and do well on their math tests or find nice godly boyfriends. Nobody can convince me that more heartfelt prayers have arisen from American Idol winners than from the millions who've suffered and perished in human- or natural force-caused violence. To me, there's something way off about a "supreme being" who's helping somebody out with a math test while leaving a little kid trying to clear a field of landmines so his family can garden it without a clue of where the mine is that'll blow off his legs. Seems as if the small things always get this God's attention while huge things get ignored!

This is a big reason why I'm an atheist. Even if there is a God, if these are that "supreme being's" priorities, then I have no interest in endorsing him or her as particularly supreme! Anybody who appears to care to help Susie find her car keys but doesn't appear to care about rescuing tortured children dying in agony in concentration camps or of some burrowing worm disease isn't making very good use of his or her "infinite" capacities, in my opinion. It God's so infinite, why can't he or she do both?

And, of course, the answer to this is -- You are arrogant! God is far wiser and larger than you! And someday you will understand! You will see the whole picture! Well, I've read dozens of books attempting to explain how all this evil and pain continue to exist in a world in which other people are supposedly being provided with God's assistance to pass their road tests or make a frigging touchdown in the NFL. And I haven't seen one book that actually manages to explain it in any other way than "God will make it all clear in time!" That being the case, I assume that that time will come when I'm dead and no longer have need of what would be awfully good information to help reconcile me to the horrors that exist all over this world, striking good people, including people who pray, while others are bragging that their prayers have brought a solution to some tiny first-world problem. If this is what God is, he or she is just a callous jerk using people as a plaything and torturing them further by spitting on their struggles to understand. .... God surpasseth our understanding and leaveth our reason in the dust -- but why would a God have given us those things in the first place if they were worthless for true understanding? And does that mean we're not supposed to rely on them for anything? I never see an answer to this either!

To me, this whole thing is sort of a God in the image of a nasty powerful person. Sort of a God in the image of Jim Bob! And I'm so not interested in a God like that. (Doesn't help that a lot of the people who make this argument most strongly about God also don't believe in, say, evolution. I have a hard time believing that those people are right about an issue this profound!)

I think the argument is that even if he's doing nothing, God is still keeping score.

[Churchhoney]

I think the argument is that even if he's doing nothing, God is still keeping score.

 

Yeah, I think you're right. But it still makes no sense to me that a god that's supposed to be universal would just keep score on Rwandan genocide but intervene with Susie's lost keys! That could be the case -- but a god like that can do its intervening/non-intervening without my support. Clearly that god doesn't care for my support, anyway!

[GeeGolly]

Before I go to my friend Mr Google, does anyone know how prayer began? Is it in the Bible?

 

And Churchhoney did you hear the news story a while back, how an employee put fiction stickers on the Bibles at Costco?

[Churchhoney]

 

And Churchhoney did you hear the news story a while back, how an employee put fiction stickers on the Bibles at Costco?

 

I swear it wasn't me!

[Churchhoney]

Before I go to my friend Mr Google, does anyone know how prayer began? Is it in the Bible?

 

 

Great question. I'll be interested to see how the Lord Google answers your petition..... :  )

 

I think it's all around, though. Jesus prays. And I don't know how much that exact word comes in according to Old Testament translations, but praising God and talking to God and so on happen a lot in their, don't they? Seems like most religions have some way of getting in touch with their gods. The Greeks and Romans sought out prophecy, so I suppose if you went to the Sibyl and asked her something then you were praying, but sort of through an intermediary? And in any religion that has shrines people stop by and speak with the god/spirit of the shrine -- like Shinto, for example. A lot of prayers are ritual prayers, though, rather than specific stuff like "Help me find my keys!" "Please help me win X-Factor!" or "Thanks for the touchdown, God!" But Christianity has ritual prayers, too, like the Lord's Prayer.

[GeeGolly]

When we were planning on selling our home, a religious friend of mind gave me a plastic statue of someone to bury in my yard. It was supposed to better my odds. (We never did sell)

 

But that plays right up the Duggars' and Ben's alley.

[BradandJanet]

When we were planning on selling our home, a religious friend of mind gave me a plastic statue of someone to bury in my yard. It was supposed to better my odds. (We never did sell)

 

But that plays right up the Duggars' and Ben's alley.

 

That sounds a little too Catholic for the Duggars, especially Bin. All these people have to do is pray for what they want and hope they've been very, very good boys and girls and God's in a good mood. 

[riverblue22]

Churchhoney, I am most impressed with your reasoning.  Bravo!

[GeeGolly]

That sounds a little too Catholic for the Duggars, especially Bin. All these people have to do is pray for what they want and hope they've been very, very good boys and girls and God's in a good mood. 

Right and Ben has spouted about only praying to God and no one else.

[NEGirl]

GeeGolly- The statue you are referring to is a statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Legend goes if you bury it upside down it will help you sell your house quicker. Some people swear by it. Don't know how the "urban legend" got started. I don't have a house to sell nor do I know anyone who has done this.

Edited August 8, 2015 by NEGirl

[Julia]

The thing is, the bible actually did weigh in on the subject of direct intervention. After the flood, the smiting was supposed to stop, and Job got a bit of a talking to about thinking that God is required to roll out good fortune like gumballs because you do the right thing. You're supposed to be doing the right thing because it's the right thing, not because there's a cosmic nanny lurking with a carrot and a stick to be delivered to your home like FedEx.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Julia

[NewDigs]

GeeGolly- The statue you are referring to is a statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Legend goes if you bury it upside down it will help you sell your house quicker. Some people swear by it. Don't know how the "urban legend" got started. I don't have a house to sell nor do I know anyone who has done this.

I have only been familiar with the supposedly magical powers of the St. Joseph statue.

Though I would imagine that for some religious people they look for any port in a storm.

Reports of Joe's real estate success are mixed.

[GeeGolly]

After Googling every which way I could think of ... it appears that Adam & Eve messed up having a direct line to God, therefore any forthcoming conversations to God had to be through prayer.

 

I assume there must be other answers to how prayer began. I would love to ask JB & M this question!

[Absolom]

Yes, it's the St Joseph statue and some stores even sell kits.  I've heard a few homilies how this it NOT a Catholic practice, but magical thinking/practice that the monsignor considered a sin. 

[kokapetl]

Yeah, I think you're right. But it still makes no sense to me that a god that's supposed to be universal would just keep score on Rwandan genocide but intervene with Susie's lost keys! That could be the case -- but a god like that can do its intervening/non-intervening without my support. Clearly that god doesn't care for my support, anyway!

That's why I don't believe in God. If he can intervene, then he's choosing not to intervene. We have higher standards for fellow humans than we do for God.

[Churchhoney]

That's why I don't believe in God. If he can intervene, then he's choosing not to intervene. We have higher standards for fellow humans than we do for God.

 

Indeed. And how ironic.

[Cherrio]

Churchoney,

     Many years ago the tragic actress Frances Farmer wrote an essay essentially the same as what you wrote above.  Her Washington state town practically kicked her out.    Its on the internet if you want to read it.    She was extremely intelligent and a good writer, besides the acting.

          Just thought I would pass on this info, because Frances is usually only known for the troubles she had.

 

      Bravo to your post.

[Churchhoney]

When we were planning on selling our home, a religious friend of mind gave me a plastic statue of someone to bury in my yard. It was supposed to better my odds. (We never did sell)

 

 

 

After Googling every which way I could think of ... it appears that Adam & Eve messed up having a direct line to God, therefore any forthcoming conversations to God had to be through prayer.

 

I assume there must be other answers to how prayer began. I would love to ask JB & M this question!

 

What an interesting answer, though.

Yes, it's the St Joseph statue and some stores even sell kits.  I've heard a few homilies how this it NOT a Catholic practice, but magical thinking/practice that the monsignor considered a sin. 

 

 

Churchoney,

     Many years ago the tragic actress Frances Farmer wrote an essay essentially the same as what you wrote above.  Her Washington state town practically kicked her out.    Its on the internet if you want to read it.    She was extremely intelligent and a good writer, besides the acting.

          Just thought I would pass on this info, because Frances is usually only known for the troubles she had.

 

      Bravo to your post.

 

Thanks, and thanks for mentioning the Frances Farmer thing. I'll look it up. She was a woman who lived considerably before her time, I think.

[NEGirl]

GeeGolly - I first thought the statue was St. Joseph then changed it BVM after my friend insisted it was not St. Joseph. Thanks for the correction.

[Mindymoo]

Even my parents- one of whom is a cafeteria Catholic that was sent to seminary school and the other who was raised Catholic but is now agnostic- buried the St. Joseph statue. Surprisingly, in the crappy neighborhood that house was in, they sold the house quickly and got it for asking price. Same thing with my Busia and Step-Grandpa Charlie's old house. Same neighborhood, sold it within three months and got it for asking price when most of the houses around them were rental properties in dilapidated condition. My mom, the agnostic, even does the St. Anthony prayer when she is missing something like her car keys or her wedding ring. That Catholic juju sticks with you, even after you've left the church.

[Muffyn]

GeeGolly - I first thought the statue was St. Joseph then changed it BVM after my friend insisted it was not St. Joseph. Thanks for the correction.

St. Joseph?  I thought he was too busy making aspirin.  

[NewDigs]

That's why I don't believe in God. If he can intervene, then he's choosing not to intervene. We have higher standards for fellow humans than we do for God.

Maybe God was in the tub?

I'm not trying to make light of your really insightful comment. Just couldn't resist the opening.

ETA I need to give appropriate credit to TWOP for the "tub". I think it was coined in response to innumerable contestants, on almost uncountable reality competitions, asking God for help to win.

Edited August 9, 2015 by NewDigs

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

I hope I'm placing this comment in the right place. I followed a link on here to look at a pic on the duggar's page and I saw that they posted this status:

Duggar Family Official

8 hrs ·

John- David’s favorite Bible character is Job. Who is your favorite?

Judith.

Esther.

Judah Maccabee.

Jezebel.

I'm also a fan of David & Jonathan's love affair.

[Vaysh]

I hope I'm placing this comment in the right place. I followed a link on here to look at a pic on the duggar's page and I saw that they posted this status:

Duggar Family Official

8 hrs ·

John- David’s favorite Bible character is Job. Who is your favorite?

 

Jael.

 

Mostly because she'd be the perfect Patron Saint of the Zombie Apocalypse.

[NewDigs]

Judith.

Esther.

Judah Maccabee.

Jezebel.

I'm also a fan of David & Jonathan's love affair.

And Saul! With his spear!

Do the Duggars use a Bible that does not include Leviticus???

[Churchhoney]

GeeGolly - I first thought the statue was St. Joseph then changed it BVM after my friend insisted it was not St. Joseph. Thanks for the correction.

 

I spent a lot of years thinking that it must be Joseph of Arimathea. He's the guy who supposedly gave up the tomb he owned to be Christ's tomb, and I figured it'd be him because his claim to fame was a transfer of real estate. I was surprised when I finally learned that it was the original St. Joseph. The dumbest things sometimes turn into traditions.

[Darknight]

Okay I don't know why people say send out prayers instead of helping. Like a natural disaster or gun violence. That's like crating a hashtag thinking you're doing something.

Also even thought I consider myself a christian. Why is it okay for other christians to point out and judge others, but when someone does the same to them they get upset. Why is it okay to force others to have the same beliefs as you. This is why so many people are turning away from religion.

[Cherrio]

St. Joseph?  I thought he was too busy making aspirin.  

One of the funniest posts of all time !!

[Aja]

And, of course, the answer to this is -- You are arrogant! God is far wiser and larger than you! And someday you will understand! You will see the whole picture! Well, I've read dozens of books attempting to explain how all this evil and pain continue to exist in a world in which other people are supposedly being provided with God's assistance to pass their road tests or make a frigging touchdown in the NFL. And I haven't seen one book that actually manages to explain it in any other way than "God will make it all clear in time!" That being the case, I assume that that time will come when I'm dead and no longer have need of what would be awfully good information to help reconcile me to the horrors that exist all over this world, striking good people, including people who pray, while others are bragging that their prayers have brought a solution to some tiny first-world problem. If this is what God is, he or she is just a callous jerk using people as a plaything and torturing them further by spitting on their struggles to understand. .... God surpasseth our understanding and leaveth our reason in the dust -- but why would a God have given us those things in the first place if they were worthless for true understanding? And does that mean we're not supposed to rely on them for anything? I never see an answer to this either!

 

From your mouth to...uh....well. P.S. you rule.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Aja

[Defrauder]

Imagine if God was the ocean, as indifferent as the tides.  Or a bird, or flower, or a smiling stranger on the street.  An orphan or a wanderer or the stars shining bright at night.  The moon or the air you breath, Nature stormy or gentle like a breeze.  Doesn't have to be the biblical man in the clouds. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

I'm loving all the atheists coming out of the woodwork! No offense to theists, but sometimes I get to feeling that everyone else around me is part of something which I'm simply not wired for.

 

I post on an atheist forum sometimes, but the discussion here is far more respectful, which is really nice when sometimes you are not in the mood for a debate which might get pretty heated (though there are times that the latter can be entertaining as well).

 

I'm not going to post the name of the forum or try to lure people over there, but if anyone is interested, pm me...it would especially be nice to hear from some intelligent, well-spoken theists, which we seem to have many of here, while the other site seems to attract more of the closed-minded Bible-thumper sort, when we get any at all...

 

Mods, if this is not appropriate, feel free to delete...I'm not sure what the etiquette is on things like this.

[kokapetl]

Imagine if God was the ocean, as indifferent as the tides. Or a bird, or flower, or a smiling stranger on the street. An orphan or a wanderer or the stars shining bright at night. The moon or the air you breath, Nature stormy or gentle like a breeze. Doesn't have to be the biblical man in the clouds.

I think the Duggars think God is more like this:

[Liz Tudor]

I think the Duggars think God is more like this:

This is waaaayyy to cool to be wasted on the Duggars. I've got to go...I think I hear Queen...

[Churchhoney]

Interesting insider remembrance of an ATI young woman's event. Possibly kind of encapsulates the struggles that Jinger, Jana, et al may have any time they feel a twinge of the thought, "Hey, why can't I be a full person, too?"

 

https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2015/08/10/created-to-be-his-doormat-wende-benners-story/

 

Here's a wee bit about the "no expectations" thing that we've heard the Duggar parrot flock mention:

"There were so many sins women were prone to falling into it seemed, and just one of them could not only destroy our lives but the lives of our husband and children. Things such as having expectations from life or loved ones only led us to be contentious and ungrateful. This of course could destroy a family or lead to something even worse- bitterness. Bitterness would give Satan a piece of our soul and was even known to be the cause of certain illnesses (like arthritis) and depression."

 

Here's a bit where you feel horribly sinful for entertaining fantasies or hopes of doing anything except serve your husband:

"These sessions made it clear to us God’s only purpose for women was marriage and children (as many children as possible).

If we had any other desires or dreams we were sinning.....Of course these weren’t exactly new ideas for someone who had been in ATI for a while, but hearing these things everyday with verses to back them up started to take a toll....I felt trapped. And then I felt shame and guilt. I felt I was so selfish to have other dreams and to not want what God’s design and purpose for me."

 

And the title nugget for the piece:

'The picture of marriage Mrs. Elliot painted was one of loneliness and loss-a place where women were created “gloriously unequal” to men.

In fact, she informed us that equality was a political construct, but women were created to be “lesser than” men in order to symbolize the mystery of Christ and the church.....Mrs. Elliot then replied, “Well, I have always said since God made me to be a doormat, I will be the best doormat I can be.”'

Edited August 12, 2015 by Churchhoney