Gimme That Old Time Religion

[anony mouse]

I'm pretty sure everyone knows some strident people on Facebook. I don't think liberals or conservatives have a corner on that market.

[frenchtoast]

This is not the topic to discuss facebook, everyone. We have a topic for that, the Small Talk one. This is to talk about the Duggars and their theology and how it compares to other religions. Let's swing back to that, please.

[Pixie Chicken]

I actually know dozens of churches that offer Saturday night services and/or Sunday night services. Off the top of my head I can name Episcopal, Baptist, Methodist and and many evangelical churches that would be mainstream theologically (Nazarene, CMA, E free, etc.) but not the traditional denominations. I don't know of a Presbyterian or Lutheran denomination that does this, but I know a few who offer "home groups" during these times.

But I know EXACTLY the face that was made! :)

This must be a regional thing, to some degree.  I know quite a few Lutheran churches that offer Saturday evening service times, but we live near a large city and many churches tend to have more than one service just for space issues.

 

My own church has a Sunday evening service, but much like the Baptist and E. Free churches here, it really isn't viewed as an alternative to the morning service.  Some people may USE it that way, but in our experience, that has been a slim minority of the congregtion.  The theologically conservative churches view Sunday as the Lord's Day, and attend both morning and evening services.  And they're different services -- two separate sermons, with different hymns and prayers, and focusing on different messages.

 

In between services, many have a time of rest and relaxation, but won't go shopping or golfing or even mow their lawns.  They take very literally the commandment to keep the Sabbath holy, and not to work on that day, but also refrain from making others work -- the logic goes that if you're at a restaurant, then the waitresses and bus boys and cooks are forced to work on the Sabbath.

 

My husband and I don't adhere to this very strictly.  I get it, in theory, but I fail to see why he can't mow the lawn but I can cook a large meal.  Most people we know watch the NFL games too (or record them if they interfere with the evening service) -- and that's fine with me; I'm no Ben Seewald -- but the players and refs and announcers are working, aren't they?  It's okay for them but not for the Starbucks barista, so I can't hit the drive-thru?  I don't like the pick-and-choose element and "let my conscience be my guide," but it's not an uncommon view where we live.  You'd get funny looks at church if you told people you were only attending the evening service so you could sleep in on a Sunday.

 

I suspect that the Duggars "officially" believe in the no-work-on-Sunday model, but in practice, do whatever strikes their fancy.  After all, their church is their own and they can schedule services whenever, can't they?

[GEML]

Pixie - that's the world I grew up in, but that world has almost vanished. Nearly all of the churches I attended as a child no longer have Sunday night services. My family were quite radical I'm that we often went for ice cream after church on Sunday nights, this breaking the "no working on the Sabbath" rule but they actually took the approach that they both worked almost as much as a minister's family, and like them, usually substituted Saturday (many ministers take off Monday's) as the day dedicated for a day of rest and family activity. We just never said anything about it publicly. :)

[kokapetl]

I read that after sunset on Saturday, it's biblically considered to be the next day: Sunday.

[RedPonyDriver]

As a young "Good Catholic Girl", I played the music for the Saturday night mass, along with friends from school...we liked Saturday night 6pm Mass...out by 7 and partying by 7:30. We ALL hit confession before Mass too...cuz we were BAAAAAAD! The other upside was not having to go to Mass with a hangover on Sunday morning!

[Julia]

My husband and I don't adhere to this very strictly.  I get it, in theory, but I fail to see why he can't mow the lawn but I can cook a large meal.  

 

The more so because Jesus was jewish, and in his household you wouldn't have been allowed to cook the meal.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Julia

[GEML]

There were homes where I was growing up that didn't have cooked meals. The woman usually baked and made fried chicken the day before and the only heated up canned vegetables and starch or some sort right before dinner. Children were to wash the dishes (often served on the good China) to allow the mother her rest, teach them how to handle good China and keep them busy on what was supposed to be a rather dull day.

[MamaMax]

http://fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-duggars-how-fundamentalisms.html

 

Has anyone read the above blog? I read this linked post and all the Modesty culture stuff and found it really really interesting, would love to discuss…..

Edited July 27, 2015 by MamaMax

[Pixie Chicken]

Pixie - that's the world I grew up in, but that world has almost vanished. Nearly all of the churches I attended as a child no longer have Sunday night services.

It's not at all uncommon here... but the denominations that traditionally attended two Sunday services are rather dominant in this area.

 

MamaMax, I'll have to check that out.  Looks interesting, because I just can't get on board with the modesty stuff, at least not the Duggars' brand of it.

[Catlyn]

I've read the blog before when I've seen a link. Interesting from a male ex-Gothard.

[Micks Picks]

The guy on the blog got his law degree from a Gothard school?  I wasn't aware he ran law schools.  Of course if you pass the bar, you don't need a degree.  Still I didn't know Gothard was into running lawshcools as well.  Is there nothing he isn't into, and how much money must he have at this point?  And what does he do with it?  Go to another country and spend it?

[freebie]

 

Of course if you pass the bar, you don't need a degree.

I didn't know about Gothard running a law school either. It does sound like the blogger appreciated the education he received at Gothard's law school, but I have to wonder how different the Gothard approach is to the approach used in more traditional schools. Just FYI, the criteria for becoming a member of the bar varies from state-to-state, but the general rule of thumb is that you do actually have to graduate from an ABA-accredited law school *and* pass the bar exam to practice law. Only five states let you "read the law," then take the bar exam. In a couple of other states, New York and Maine, you can do a combination of attending law school for a year or two, then read the law and take the bar exam. And seven states, California included, don't require that your school be ABA-accredited, just state-approved. 

[JennyMominFL]

I read that after sunset on Saturday, it's biblically considered to be the next day: Sunday.

That is the case in Judaism. Shabbat starts Friday at Sundown and ends Sat and Sundown. As a con a I got to we have a regular whos is modern Orthdox. He borrows one of the non -Jews to be his Shabbos Goy and press elevator buttons and buy things for him.

[Marigold]

GEML,

we grew up very similiar. 

 

Back to the Duggars, are they Sabbath observant?  I haven't heard or read either way. 

[Muffyn]

As a young "Good Catholic Girl", I played the music for the Saturday night mass, along with friends from school...we liked Saturday night 6pm Mass...out by 7 and partying by 7:30. We ALL hit confession before Mass too...cuz we were BAAAAAAD! The other upside was not having to go to Mass with a hangover on Sunday morning!

I had to explain this to a Lutheran friend.  She couldn't understand why so many young men went to Saturday evening mass.  If you are hetero and single, it is quite the place to window shop. 

[Sew Sumi]

From that ex-Gothardite's blog:

 

The girls have had their bodily autonomy violated, but they will be taught that they may have contributed to their own assault. They were and will be expected to do the "repentance and forgiveness" charade, and pretend nothing serious happened. Their violation will not be treated with the seriousness that it deserves. And they will be taught that what Josh did was just another sexual sin, no worse or different from what they would commit if they made out with a boyfriend.

 

Didn't we see this play out, exactly as he predicted, during the Megyn Kelly interview? These girls really are taught that they are pretty much worthless, aside from their potential as future breeders. 

[kokapetl]

That is the case in Judaism. Shabbat starts Friday at Sundown and ends Sat and Sundown. As a con a I got to we have a regular whos is modern Orthdox. He borrows one of the non -Jews to be his Shabbos Goy and press elevator buttons and buy things for him.

That's always confused me. Having a guy press your buttons etc, the end result is practically the same as if you'd done it yourself, would God think highly of this loophole?

[JennyMominFL]

That's always confused me. Having a guy press your buttons etc, the end result is practically the same as if you'd done it yourself, would God think highly of this loophole?

Well, Jewish law is only meant to apply only to Jews, so you aren't causing someone else to sin, so to speak. I can see how it can be seen as cheating though

[Defrauder]

I feel so extraordinarily blessed to not to have grown up Dugglar style.  Allowed to think for myself, contemplate other philosophies, have friends of all different backgrounds and religions, listen to the music I found enjoyable, wear clothes that I preferred, just so many things I am so grateful for.  I was also exposed to my parents own religion in a relaxed and not forced sort of way.  One hour church on Sunday (that was interesting and insightful), grace before dinner, a prayer before bed.  That mixed with the allowance of my own freedom of thought and ability to have my own philosophical inquires, without shame, was a true blessing.

[GEML]

We are who we are. I'm grateful for my deeply religious background. Just as I'm grateful that I don't live in it today. :)

Edited July 28, 2015 by GEML

[Churchhoney]

Well, Jewish law is only meant to apply only to Jews, so you aren't causing someone else to sin, so to speak. I can see how it can be seen as cheating though

 

Plus, the simple need to enlist the goy serves what some see as the meaning of the law -- fostering mindfulness of God's presence, fostering awareness of one's separateness from the world at large, cultivating the habits of observance and obedience, incorporating religious ritual into everyday activities. One of the wonderful things about Judaism, to me, is the long tradition of discussing, analyzing and debating the whys, the hows, and the meaning of the laws and the different ways in which they might be observed, in a largely non-rancorous but very intense way.

 

As I understand it, to some ways of thinking it isn't so much that God set multiple little rules because he wants particular things to be done but because he wants people to keep him in mind through awareness of the rules. Following the rules plays sort of the role that meditation does in some other religions -- not so much the violations-require-forgiveness-or-send-you-to-hell thing, as in Christianity, but more of a just constant gentle recalling to who's at the center of the world and what your place is in it. Just like having your mind wander in meditation isn't something bad that sends you hellbound. You just call your mind back.

 

To me -- although I could be all wet here -- a key distinction between these views of God's laws and the Duggar view is that these views aren't essentially fear-based and the Duggs' is. The not-so-fear-based, observance-for-the-sake-of-mindfulness approach seems way healthier to me! (surprise)

[GEML]

True Fundys, not unlike Judaism, are also counter cultural. In some ways, the rules are there to keep people from being casual about it, just as you said. It's about discipline and what we now would call mindfulness.

[Defrauder]

It's true discipline to be able to draw your own conclusions and doing this the roots tend to run more deeply and solidly, a part of who you are.

[JennyMominFL]

I hope we aren't going to off topic by talking about Judaism. It seems relevents since the Duggars seem to try to follow it in some way. I think there are some fundamental misunderstands that non-Jews often have about Jewish law. The most important thing being that it does NOT apply to Non-Jews. This is why you don't see Jews  looking for converts, and why converts get turned away. And Jewish law is not just a set of laws telling people not to do stuff. May of them are positive laws, To love other Jews, To love converts,  To give to charity, To blow the Shofar on Rosh Hashanah, To eat matzoh during passover, to rest during Sukkot, to help people with burdens. etc

   This is an actual codified legal system for an entire communiity and no one can, or is, expected to keep all laws. Some laws are for rulers(The king should have his own Torah Scroll). Some are just for women. Some are just for men. Some are only for women who just  gave birth. Some are for farmers. Some are for married people. Some are for people divorcing. Some are for Kohanum(Priests)etc. Some are for the court system, etc. Your not expected to go out and get a slave to fulfill a mitzvah. Besides, It so hard to find a good Canaanite slave nowdays.

You would not blame an American, who is a housewife for not "keeping" an American law that applies to car manufacturers. Like the laws of the USA, which apply to the whole of Ameican citizens but not to every single American.  Of course no one can keep all the laws. No one was ever expected too. And they certainly don't apply to the Duggars

Edited July 28, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[GEML]

One way, in my opinion, to tell weirdo Fundy offshoots is if they are trying to be Jewish. Because these attempts are never going to be rooted in anything approaching a deep understanding of what Christians know as the Old Testsment, and it's certainly not ever a thoughtful and in depth look at rabbinical law from the Talmud. But I can promise you it's an attempt to insist that they are now God's real

Chosen people and likely their descendants will number into the millions someday like the stars. So they pluck a couple of rules here and there (if they don't want to follow any given rule, just quote some Romans) and celebrate Passover. (Oddly, something increasingly done in Evangelical and mainstream churches...)

If you are wondering, traditional Fundies are generally going around quoting from the book of Acts and insisting that they are the real church from all of the "corrupted" Christian churches....

Edited July 28, 2015 by GEML

[Aja]

I feel so extraordinarily blessed to not to have grown up Dugglar style.  Allowed to think for myself, contemplate other philosophies, have friends of all different backgrounds and religions, listen to the music I found enjoyable, wear clothes that I preferred, just so many things I am so grateful for.  I was also exposed to my parents own religion in a relaxed and not forced sort of way.  One hour church on Sunday (that was interesting and insightful), grace before dinner, a prayer before bed.  That mixed with the allowance of my own freedom of thought and ability to have my own philosophical inquires, without shame, was a true blessing.

I love this. Me too! My parents were pretty strict about religion, and I grew up in church and Sunday school and Bible camp and youth group and all that. It wasn't terrible--camp was fun, and when I was in junior high, youth group made it possible to hang out with HIGH SCHOOL BOYS--but I eventually just couldn't get fully behind it anymore. Like you, though, while my parents were steadfast about bringing me up in a Christian home, I was allowed to read pretty much whatever I wanted, have whatever friends I wanted, and when I got to high school and went through my hippie/hair dye/Doc Martens phase, they were bemused at times, but that was it. I went to dances and participated in sports and made terrible sexual decisions and on and on and on. My parents are very aware of my views now and they never try to change them, and they don't consider me a bad person now, and they would never in a million years dream of never speaking to me again over it.

[Churchhoney]

It's true discipline to be able to draw your own conclusions and doing this the roots tend to run more deeply and solidly, a part of who you are.

 

I absolutely agree that this is a true discipline. But to my mind the long tradition in Jewish practice of intense, prolonged discussion, analysis and debate of the law and its observances play a similar role. (just as meditation is also a true discipline, even though it doesn't have you drawing conclusions.) Not everybody does this, of course. But in the past, at least, it's the debate and analysis that kind of was  the Jewish tradition, as I understand it. ...

 

Of course, I'm pretty sure some scholars would say that this fact partly accounts for cultural Judaism, not religious Judaism, being the mainstream choice today. I forget what it's called, but there's a big school of thought arguing that a group survives as a religion mostly depending on the extent to which you have to actively jump over a lot of hurdles in order to be in it. And getting to think through your own interpretation of something -- even if it's your interpretation of what it means to obey a certain law -- isn't a hurdle -- it's a treat, basically.

 

The Duggars' unquestioning compliance with every dumb thing Boob and Gothard say, on the other hand -- That's a hurdle. : )

Edited July 28, 2015 by Churchhoney

[JennyMominFL]

I absolutely agree that this is a true discipline. But to my mind the long tradition in Jewish practice of intense, prolonged discussion, analysis and debate of the law and its observances play a similar role. (just as meditation is also a true discipline, even though it doesn't have you drawing conclusions.) Not everybody does this, of course. But in the past, at least, it's the debate and analysis that kind of was  the Jewish tradition, as I understand it. ...

 

Of course, I'm pretty sure some scholars would say that this fact partly accounts for cultural Judaism, not religious Judaism, being the mainstream choice today. I forget what it's called, but there's a big school of thought arguing that a group survives as a religion mostly depending on the extent to which you have to actively jump over a lot of hurdles in order to be in it. And getting to think through your own interpretation of something isn't a hurdle -- it's a treat, basically.

 

The Duggars' unquestioning compliance every dumb thing Boob and Gothard say, on the other hand -- That's a hurdle. : )

Yes. Argument and debate is still part of Jewish tradition. Questioning everything is OK and even encouraged. It is still  a joke that if you ask 3 Jews a question, you will get 4 answers.  

[Churchhoney]

Yes. Argument and debate is still part of Jewish tradition. Questioning everything is OK and even encouraged. It is still  a joke that if you ask 3 Jews a question, you will get 4 answers.  

 

Whereas if you ask 3 Baptists a question, you get 4 new churches.

 

I like the Jewish tradition better.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Churchhoney

[GEML]

Well, I can only speak for the formerly ultra Orthodox Jewish families I know, all of whom are conservative or liberal now, but they didn't have lives too dissimilar from many Fundy Christians. There is a lot of subpar education in many smaller groups outside of Torah and Talmudic studies. Women are not to question at all. The divide of the sexes makes for poor marriages which are often arranged....

Again, we are talking about a tiny section of Jewish life. But honestly, with groups like the Duggars, we're talking about a tiny section of Christian life. Even among Fundamentalists, their odd.

[Churchhoney]

Well, I can only speak for the formerly ultra Orthodox Jewish families I know, all of whom are conservative or liberal now, but they didn't have lives too dissimilar from many Fundy Christians. There is a lot of subpar education in many smaller groups outside of Torah and Talmudic studies. Women are not to question at all.

 

Yeah, you're certainly right that there's a very Duggar-like category. I haven't personally known any from this group, so I've seen a different slice. People my own age whose families were already conservative or liberal or at least sliding out of Orthodox already when I was a kid and then -- maybe most influentially for the way I view Jewish tradition -- a bunch of older European immigrants, many of them scholars, including women, some of whom remained religious and some of whom had become secular but still embraced what they saw as Jewish intellectual tradition, which they saw as growing out of Jewish Talmudic tradition.

 

I guess what makes me see an overall difference between the Jewish and the Protestant approaches is an (apparent) Protestant tradition -- in the parts I've observed, anyway -- for dissent to split groups, almost as a necessary??? demand of the faith, and with the out group (depending on your point of view) often seen as being condemned to hell. The whole "legalism" of something like Gothard has that old-testament ring to it in a way. But it's really not at all the Jewish approach as I've seen it personally or even as I've read about it ... Which is not to say that there's no "who's in/who's out" discussion among Jews. But I guess when you introduce the question of personal salvation, you ratchet that issue up a notch?

[Julia]

I just wish the broad conversation about Levitical prohibitions was as insightful as this one is.

[Micks Picks]

At a bad time of my life, and knowing almost no one, I went to a person to find out what to do.  Of course first was the advise to volunteer.  I said yes I know, but I NEED something for ME, something to get me going again.  Then came the advise that was perfect for me.  Go to the Jewish Social Center at the temple.  Bingo.  Can I go?  Would I be welcome for discussion groups of basically non-religious things?  Yes, said the advisor.  He was willing to introduce me around.  We need to nurture ourselves.  Volunteering to help others is fine, but you have to nurture what is deep within you.  And it is people who know how to analyze and see both sides of an issues, and all the permutations thereof, that get my juices flowing.  Otherwise, I'm dead inside.

[Churchhoney]

At a bad time of my life, and knowing almost no one, I went to a person to find out what to do.  Of course first was the advise to volunteer.  I said yes I know, but I NEED something for ME, something to get me going again.  Then came the advise that was perfect for me.  Go to the Jewish Social Center at the temple.  Bingo.  Can I go?  Would I be welcome for discussion groups of basically non-religious things?  Yes, said the advisor.  He was willing to introduce me around.  We need to nurture ourselves.  Volunteering to help others is fine, but you have to nurture what is deep within you.  And it is people who know how to analyze and see both sides of an issues, and all the permutations thereof, that get my juices flowing.  Otherwise, I'm dead inside.

 

Me, too.

 

Great post. Thanks for sharing this. .

Edited July 28, 2015 by Churchhoney

[JennyMominFL]

T

I guess what makes me see an overall difference between the Jewish and the Protestant approaches is an (apparent) Protestant tradition -- in the parts I've observed, anyway -- for dissent to split groups, almost as a necessary??? demand of the faith, and with the out group (depending on your point of view) often seen as being condemned to hell. The whole "legalism" of something like Gothard has that old-testament ring to it in a way. But it's really not at all the Jewish approach as I've seen it personally or even as I've read about it ... Which is not to say that there's no "who's in/who's out" discussion among Jews. But I guess when you introduce the question of personal salvation, you ratchet that issue up a notch?

Of course I am generalizing and I don't mean to offend. I spent half my life as a Christian, studying Christianity, and the other half Jewish and studying Judaism, so  I may have a unique perspective.

Judaism in general is focused on life and on actions. A righteous Jew lives a good life. The focus is on what you do, not what you believe. There is room for questioning. It is welcomed at all time. 

  Christianity is far more belief focused. It is absulutely imperative that you believe certain things to be considered a Christian. Those beliefs determine salvation.

There is no eternal salvation in Judaism. There is no set belief in heaven or Hell. It's all about what you do in the here and the now. 

 

 I don't know  that I am explaining well. When ones salvation is based upon certain beliefs, there is less room for freedom of thought.

  I am aware that behavior is also important in Christianity, so I am not trying to say that Christians don't care about being a good person.

The Duggars sort of encapsulate this. Any ideas that they view as a threat to salvation are simply verboden. And they seem to live a sad life because they think it's what is required to get their happy afterlife.

  There is nothing Jewish in them, or in their attitudes and beliefs

Edited July 28, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[Churchhoney]

Of course I am generalizing and I don't mean to offend. I spent half my life as a Christian ,studying Christianit,y and the other half Jewish and studying Judaism, so  I may have a unique perspective.

Judaism in general is focused on life and on actions. A righteous Jew lives a good life. The focus is on what you do, not what you believe. There is room for questioning. It is welcomed at all time. 

  Christianity is far more belief focused. It is absulutely imperative that you believe certain things to be considered  a Christian, and those beliefs determine salvation.

There is no eternal salvation in Judaism. There is no set belief in heaven or Hell. It's all about what you do in the here and the now. 

 

 I don't know  that I am explaining well. When ones salvation is based upon certain beliefs, there is less room for freedom of thought.

  I am aware that behavior is also important in Christianity, so I am not trying to say that Christians don't care about being a good person.

The Duggars sort of encapsulate this. Any ideas that they view as a threat to salvation are simply verboden. And they seem to live a sad life because they think it's what is required to get their happy afterlife.

  There is nothing Jewish in them, or in their attitudes and beliefs

 

I think you did a great job explaining. This is what I was groping toward in what I said about salvation. And I completely agree that there's nothing Jewish about them! -- the focus on legalism in Gothard and some other Protestant groups and among the Duggars, I think, is intended -- on their part -- to make them akin to the Jewish people, though. Just showing how much they don't understand, of course.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Churchhoney

[GEML]

Except not all Christian (not even all Protestant or event Fundy Protestant) groups obsess over belief. That's very American, for starters.

My mother is a well known piano player in her town and began to play for a small church of Hungarian Presbyterians. This is a church that identifies mostly on ethnicity, familial ties and a Calvinist belief that is far different in nature than the John Knox Scottish one most of us are familiar with. It's a church you are either born into or not. It's a salvation God himself either calls you to or doesn't. (That's old style Calvinism, which we've all watered down, actually.). There really isn't as much to believe as there is to do - which is leading a Godly life and practicing a church life in keeping with that as your ancestors practiced.

Of course, the church is tiny, and grows a little smaller every year.

But that way of thinking and practice has a long and deeply established tradition - longer, actually, than any American style evangelicalism.

[Cherrio]

Of course I am generalizing and I don't mean to offend. I spent half my life as a Christian, studying Christianity, and the other half Jewish and studying Judaism, so  I may have a unique perspective.

Judaism in general is focused on life and on actions. A righteous Jew lives a good life. The focus is on what you do, not what you believe. There is room for questioning. It is welcomed at all time. 

  Christianity is far more belief focused. It is absulutely imperative that you believe certain things to be considered a Christian. Those beliefs determine salvation.

There is no eternal salvation in Judaism. There is no set belief in heaven or Hell. It's all about what you do in the here and the now. 

 

 I don't know  that I am explaining well. When ones salvation is based upon certain beliefs, there is less room for freedom of thought.

  I am aware that behavior is also important in Christianity, so I am not trying to say that Christians don't care about being a good person.

The Duggars sort of encapsulate this. Any ideas that they view as a threat to salvation are simply verboden. And they seem to live a sad life because they think it's what is required to get their happy afterlife.

  There is nothing Jewish in them, or in their attitudes and beliefs

Excellent !         

[cmr2014]

I read this article yesterday:

 

http://www.salon.com/2015/07/31/secrets_of_the_extreme_religious_right_inside_the_frightening_world_of_christian_reconstructionism/

 

If has a lot of information about the worldview of people on the extreme Christian right. It helped me to understand things like why people refer to their democratically elected government as a "tyranny," the omeschooling movement, and "Biblical economics."

 

It's an interview, so there is some wandering from point to point, and a ton of typos, but all-in-all a lot of information that clarified some things for me about the Duggar's belief system.

[Happyfatchick]

Whereas if you ask 3 Baptists a question, you get 4 new churches.

 

I like the Jewish tradition better.

if you ask 3 Baptists a question, it's going to spawn the creation of a minimum of 3 committees per person, some infighting within the committees over who gets to be the chief, more infighting over who's the most qualified v/s who's currently the most Godly (while the MOST truly qualified person abstains from being the chief because he doesn't want to be involved in the bickering). Somebody will get huffy to leave the church, and will take the entire extended family with them while the remaining committee members gather up their family members into a faction...

Basically I'm saying if you ask 3 Baptists a question, it causes a church split. (hence the 4 new churches, get it?)

[galax-arena]

if you ask 3 Baptists a question, it's going to spawn the creation of a minimum of 3 committees per person, some infighting within the committees over who gets to be the chief, more infighting over who's the most qualified v/s who's currently the most Godly (while the MOST truly qualified person abstains from being the chief because he doesn't want to be involved in the bickering). Somebody will get huffy to leave the church, and will take the entire extended family with them while the remaining committee members gather up their family members into a faction...

And then they'll cap it off by writing resolutions on how the other churches are Doing It Wrong. 

[RazzleberryPie]

if you ask 3 Baptists a question, it's going to spawn the creation of a minimum of 3 committees per person, some infighting within the committees over who gets to be the chief, more infighting over who's the most qualified v/s who's currently the most Godly (while the MOST truly qualified person abstains from being the chief because he doesn't want to be involved in the bickering). Somebody will get huffy to leave the church, and will take the entire extended family with them while the remaining committee members gather up their family members into a faction...

Basically I'm saying if you ask 3 Baptists a question, it causes a church split. (hence the 4 new churches, get it?)

And that autonomy is both the blessing and the curse. Blessing, that if you don't like the way things are going, you can just start your own church. Curse, because if you don't like the way things are going, you can just start your own church. It's great when there's a quagmire of harmful activity (ie., we don't feel safe in the manner our church dealt with a teenage incestuous molestor, so we're running like the wind), and also awful (ie we want to deal with our teenage incestuous molestor the way we see fit, so we're taking Josh and starting our own church). 

[msblossom]

Of course I am generalizing and I don't mean to offend. I spent half my life as a Christian, studying Christianity, and the other half Jewish and studying Judaism, so I may have a unique perspective.

Judaism in general is focused on life and on actions. A righteous Jew lives a good life. The focus is on what you do, not what you believe. There is room for questioning. It is welcomed at all time.

Christianity is far more belief focused. It is absulutely imperative that you believe certain things to be considered a Christian. Those beliefs determine salvation.

There is no eternal salvation in Judaism. There is no set belief in heaven or Hell. It's all about what you do in the here and the now.

I don't know that I am explaining well. When ones salvation is based upon certain beliefs, there is less room for freedom of thought.

I am aware that behavior is also important in Christianity, so I am not trying to say that Christians don't care about being a good person.

The Duggars sort of encapsulate this. Any ideas that they view as a threat to salvation are simply verboden. And they seem to live a sad life because they think it's what is required to get their happy afterlife.

There is nothing Jewish in them, or in their attitudes and beliefs

I agree with much of this, but I also think the Duggars are so rule obsessed that they often seem obsessed about their behavior. For instance, they tend to build fences around the law (10 commandments and some Old Testament practices) and create rules and laws in addition to how we're to live according to scripture. And rather than accepting the grace of God, they run around doing, doing, doing what they believe is acceptable to God in almost rote fashion without really understanding the freedom and acceptance we have with God, as if it depends on their behavior. We can't earn God's love and acceptance, it's a gift of God. They're extremely insecure in their faith that they become maniacal about all the outward trappings of how they think a good Christian behaves. And around in circles they go, it must be exhausting.

ETA: Regarding their rote faith, they don't allow themselves to question and struggle through their faith or areas of unbelief. They mechanically or robotically just believe EVERYTHING, but probably couldn't articulate well what it is and why they believe it, which is common for children (and some adults who just go through the motions and don't really think through why they came to faith). It's actually healthy to question faith or religion and work through, God isn't intimidated by it, nor do I believe he has a problem with it. I did, and do, and it strengthens my faith and makes me dig into and discover truth.

Edited August 3, 2015 by msblossom

[NewDigs]

I think we need to form a committee...

[GeeGolly]

I think we need to form a committee...

LOL!!

[Churchhoney]

My sense of what the Duggars kind of believe is that similar to how the woman interviewed in this article describes Christian Reconstructionism in her book.

 

http://www.salon.com/2015/07/31/secrets_of_the_extreme_religious_right_inside_the_frightening_world_of_christian_reconstructionism

 

They may not have as much Calvinism as there is in here (although there's definitely more Calvinism expressed in the TTH now that Ben has arrived...), but a lot of this is kind of what they embrace dimly, it seems to my inexpert eye. This is an interesting article in that tackles a lot, trying to say how homeschooling, Confederate sympathies and sort of libertarian economics tie in, for example. And of course the Duggs embrace it only dimly because they're, you know, pretty dim.

[mimionthebeach]

This popped up in my newsfeed and I thought I'd share. 

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/07/30/the-daily-show-explores-non-existent-discrimination-against-christians-in-arkansas/

[Churchhoney]

This popped up in my newsfeed and I thought I'd share. 

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/07/30/the-daily-show-explores-non-existent-discrimination-against-christians-in-arkansas/

 

Gay ice cream? Hilarious.

[kalamac]

We have an ice cream in Australia called Golden Gaytime. The tagline in the ads is "It's hard to have a gaytime on your own!"