Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Aja]

The reason I feel the way I do is because you never see any good about Christians on tv, you get breaking news that christian man has murdered dog (example) but you don't hear that he murdered the dog because the dog attacked his child and ate her face. The news doesn't tell the world about the Christians who do go on missions and actually help, it doesn't tell about the churches who spend hours making meals for people who can't cook, or how the church donates money to different organizations that help people.

It's true, you definitely don't hear stories like that in the media. Unfortunately, stories like that don't 'sell', and it's not limited to Christians. You never see scientists doing important research profiled on any mainstream media outlets, for example. Rarely are their any major, sensational stories about someone who actually did something that adds to the value of our shared human experience. I agree, it sucks, because it is a huge factor in the generally negative public atmosphere in the US. I'd much prefer seeing Christians doing good work given a high profile in the news, instead of people like the Duggars using Christianity for their own financial gain, and at the horrifying victimization of their own children.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Aja

[galax-arena]

The reason I feel the way I do is because you never see any good about Christians on tv

How do you account for the fact that the Duggars got their own television show in the first place? As others have pointed out, if the Duggars were Muslim (or black), they never would have gotten a series. The fact that TLC went along with this heavily whitewashed Waltons-esque version of conservative quiverfull Christianity disproves your assertion, IMO. If the Duggars hadn't become greedy for political power/influence, we would have continued seeing them as good little Christians. The media wasn't exactly being unfair to them, they shot themselves in the foot. People Magazine was certainly happy enough to kiss Duggar ass for years.

 

And we do hear about the good that other Christians do. I've heard about the South Korean pastor who created a "drop box" to help abandoned babies. I've heard about gay Christians like Matthew Vines and Vicky Beeching who advocate for the full inclusion of LGBTQ people in the church and help destroy the assumption that homosexuality and Christianity are mutually exclusive. I think if you don't believe that the media ever talks about good Christians, it's because there's some confirmation bias in play. Also, a lot of genuinely good Christians probably aren't boastful about it because, unlike the Duggars, they're more humble about it and don't constantly throw it in people's faces that they're Christian. My best friend is really devout but she doesn't shove it down people's throats. If she does something good, she's not all that interested in letting people know what an awesome deed she did. 

 

Kristin Chenoweth is a famous person who you might not know is Christian because she doesn't feel a constant need to boast about what a good Christian she is.

Edited June 15, 2015 by galax-arena

[GEML]

As someone with deep ties in the Christian world, I actually have to say that most, but not all, of the people I hear complaining that Christians as persecuted are POLITICALLY conservative Christians. Not even conservative Christians. My personal theology that I live my life by would probably be rather startling to many of you. But that's my own choice. I'm not looking to take a faith based choice and instill it upon anyone through political or legal means. That's the difference.

[muffkins]

Generally, in Canada at least, religion doesn't really come into play much in news reports.  If it does, it is usually regarding terrorism or factional fighting in some sub group of a non Christian religion. I don't recall ever hearing "and now the police have arrested Joe Blow, a Christian...."  it just doesn't come up.

[GEML]

It's hard to believe now, but at one time, Canada was as religious, perhaps even a shade more so, than the U.S. Quite a few big name Fundamentalists of the early movement came out of Canada. But once they created the United Church of Canada and religion became more based on culture and Canadian identity rather than theology, it quickly became more like its European counterparts (almost all of which are officially "Christian nations" with an official state sanctioned religion) and less like the U.S., where these fights over theology can still consume us.

It's because of the Canadian model, actually, that I fight so hard against a "Christian label" and the evangelical simplification of American religious identity. I think our Christian plurality is pretty amazing and vibrant BECAUSE we refuse to make it part of how we define ourself as Americans. It's the piece of yourself where you can be as placid in non-belief to as rabid in total ecstatic belief as you wish, and it's ok. I see that as a great strength. Not something to be eradicated or coded into behavior laws or sanitized into PC language.

[Cherrio]

Generally, in Canada at least, religion doesn't really come into play much in news reports.  If it does, it is usually regarding terrorism or factional fighting in some sub group of a non Christian religion. I don't recall ever hearing "and now the police have arrested Joe Blow, a Christian...."  it just doesn't come up.

Sounds good to me.   

[JennyMominFL]

The news media generally highlights the bad not the good. That's how the media works. Watch any news program and you will see 90 percent awful stories with maybe one feel good story thrown in. Good things happen every single day all across the country. They are done by Christians and Non Christians alike. They don't make the news. News is news because it's NOT the norrm.

[Cherrio]

As a Jew, the cry that Christians in America are being persecuted or even attacked for their beliefs makes me want to slam my head into the wall. Repeatedly. And no, I do NOT believe that Jews are being persecuted in America. America has been very good for Jews overall, one of the best environments we've ever had in the diaspora. That said, the amount of casual anti-semitism one encounters in everyday life might surprise you. The casual othering; the insults tossed into conversations that are not even about Judaism OR individual Jews; the vicious hatred that can spring up unexpectedly at any time -- and this is what we consider NOT being persecuted. This is how it is every day, in a very very good place for Jews (everything's relative and the Jewish people have a long collective memory). You have no idea.

I'm sorry I had to add my voice to this discussion, given that the entire thing was prompted by a straw man argument I'd otherwise prefer not to dignify. And I may get mod noted, or deleted. Sorry. I find I'm just not able to let it pass.

Bravo !

[frenchtoast]

Folks, a reminder, per the pinned post, this topic is for:

This thread should be reserved for matters of religion, churches, church related-groups, and particular beliefs and practices that are  somehow related to the Duggars. It is not intended to be a catch all topic for any religious issue you want to talk about.  If you want to do that, please go to the Small Talk thread in this forum.  The mods will start deleting posts that are off-topic.

We have given some space allowed it stray quite a bit from that. It's time to bring it back in.

The discussion over perceived persecution of Christians has run it's course and it's time to get back on topic. Posts following this mod note not adhering to this announcement will be removed without notice or explanation.

Thank you.

[bluebonnet]

ETA: Mod note came while I was typing.  

Edited June 15, 2015 by bluebonnet

[Happyfatchick]

I love my mom with my whole entire heart and would lay down my life for her, but if you ask her I'm smug, I'm a bad christian. I have paid her gas bill 3 winters in a row, I have sent her money for food, I put new floors all through her house, I've done everything I could for her.

. I think you are a VERY good girl for helping your mom the way you do.

[bubbls]

I've been asking everyone I know who was or is an evangelical and not a single one has heard of the Jesus Prayer. Some of these people are in their seventies and have been evangelicals pretty much since birth. Others have been in a lot of different denominations including those that I'd assume would use the prayer in a meditative way. Nada. I had to explain it to everyone.

Not that this is important in the grand scheme of things. It just piqued my curiosity, so I thought I'd share my own personal research findings.

I'm still confused about the connection to the Duggars but not interested enough to view years of reality programming to figure it out.

Edited June 15, 2015 by bubbls

[Lemur]

I think the thing that bothers me the most about this clan of yahoos is that they are seemingly incapable of separating religion from politics.  Politics is their ministry.  Their ministry is political.  They are bound and effing determined to completely undermine that aspect of the Constitution and they will do in the most pernicious and insidious of ways possible.  I can't stand their particular brand of patriarchal, apocalyptic Christianity.  It drives me wild, from the mindless adoration of the head of household to the obsession with Israel, the complete and total cherry-picking of Biblical verses as well as ignorance of the development of the Bible as a document of faith.  They are, as far as I am concerned, the antithesis of everything our Founding Fathers (our Real Founding Fathers like John Winthorp, Roger Williams and William Penn) wanted for the US.  So yeah, sorry Duggars, I'm not paying into your ministry so you can spending it trying to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem and bring about the End of Days.

[GEML]

John Winthrop could be a real self-righteous pain in the ass. (One of my personal heroes is Anne Hutchinson.) And William Penn's land grant had already been given to one of my ancestors before being revoked to get him and his followers (also seen as too self righteous) out of England's hair. It's always complicated....

[JenCarroll]

History is always complicated. But this is very simple: What does the Constitution of the United States have to say about God? Absolutely nothing. It lays out a government that is entirely secular, a civic government. And that is what the founders intended.

[Lemur]

John Winthrop could be a real self-righteous pain in the ass. (One of my personal heroes is Anne Hutchinson.) And William Penn's land grant had already been given to one of my ancestors before being revoked to get him and his followers (also seen as too self righteous) out of England's hair. It's always complicated....

Absolutely, GEML.  Winthrop is a sticky figure for both good and bad reasons.  The whole exiling people into the wilderness for not believing in his particular stripe of apocalyptic Christianity is well known. But, he really was a give-until-it-hurts kind of guy, a lesson Jim Bob might purpose to emulate.

 

Oh, and on behalf of one of Penn's subsequent land grant recipients, apologies for poaching your land grant.  

History is always complicated. But this is very simple: What does the Constitution of the United States have to say about God? Absolutely nothing. It lays out a government that is entirely secular, a civic government. And that is what the founders intended.

 

And it's something inherently the Duggars do not understand.  I've come to the conclusion that their confusion over the whole Josh situation stems from the fact that they can't comprehend that what Josh did was not only a sin but is also a crime and thus don't understand the furor and uproar as they have already forgiven him.

[GEML]

Except that they left the power of religion to the states. By being vague about it, the fledgling federal government basically agreed by saying almost nothing that this would be a state matter. (Another aspect spelled out in the Constitution.). And it's just pure coincidence that plenty of states had religious tests and hoops to jump through and that ALL of them happened to be Christian? Oh, and the Founding Fathers were almost always governors, Senators or leading citizens in those same states, so no, I really don't think quoting the Constitution is a drop mic moment. But I'm glad it works for some.

[JenCarroll]

Show me a Duggar that has actually read the U.S. Constitution...

[GEML]

Perhaps we can all hope that Jim Bob Duggar leaves behind journals where he bares his soul in private as he does not dare in public? John Winthrop's journals save him...after all! :)

Right now, I'd be happy to see a Duggar 12 and under that actually READS....

[Lemur]

Perhaps we can all hope that Jim Bob Duggar leaves behind journals where he bares his soul in private as he does not dare in public? John Winthrop's journals save him...after all! :)

Right now, I'd be happy to see a Duggar 12 and under that actually READS....

 

Now that's some fodder for the parody thread ...

[frenchtoast]

As fascinating as American History and how it intersects with religion, it's a discussion that really doesn't belong here. 

[Tabbygirl521]

I've been asking everyone I know who was or is an evangelical and not a single one has heard of the Jesus Prayer. Some of these people are in their seventies and have been evangelicals pretty much since birth. Others have been in a lot of different denominations including those that I'd assume would use the prayer in a meditative way. Nada. I had to explain it to everyone.

I'm still confused about the connection to the Duggars but not interested enough to view years of reality programming to figure it out.

I haven't been reading this thread long and have lots of catching up to do. I just wanted to mention (I don't know why :) ) that as a lapsed Episcopalian I had never heard of the Jesus prayer until reading here the other day. But not two days later, I was reading a newsletter from my mom's church, and lo and behold, an upcoming event is learning about the Jesus prayer/meditation (I think).

Just seemed like such an odd coincidence that I felt compelled to share my heart :)

[MrsMommy]

I guess you could concider us fundy lite, I'm southern baptist and I've never heard of the jesus prayer either. I'm actually about to call my Sunday school teacher and ask her about it

Edited June 16, 2015 by MrsMommy

[Rhondinella]

I'd never heard of the Jesus Prayer either, at least not specifically by that name, but according to wikipedia it came from the eastern Christian tradition and is mostly still recognized and practiced in Eastern orthodox denominations.  But it could certainly have spread to some denominations of western origin as well.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Prayer

[mbutterfly]

I'm kind in the Mere Christianity thought that each of the Christian traditions brings good to the table. At the very least I can observe the Amish (who live in my old community) and while being very happy I am not Amish, still be happy there are Amish among us. And I have loved and learned from deep sharing conversations with Pentecostals, and LDSs, and Roman Catholics, and Baptists. And I know many of us here have had that experience. But the more I learn about the Duggar (adults) the more I do not see them bringing good to the table. I believe their ministries have been highly political with an eye for earning their personal fortunes for quite a while. And, like so many here, I doubt I have missed a show though I was getting more and more squeamish about watching because I was understanding what was behind it all. 

[GeeGolly]

I too was bothered by the political aspect of the show. When I first happened upon this forum I went months before I read the Josh & Anna thread because it had FRC in the title.

[galax-arena]

I too was bothered by the political aspect of the show. When I first happened upon this forum I went months before I read the Josh & Anna thread because it had FRC in the title.

Really? I dropped the show because I thought they whitewashed the Duggars' political involvement and it bugged me because I knew how despicable Josh's work with the FRC was. Did not like seeing him portrayed as this lovable harmless schmuck. (Well... "lovable" is a stretch either way, I guess.)

 

I post on another message board and I used to frequently post about Josh's FRC work. A few other people would say how they had no idea, that (going by the show) they just thought the Duggars were a relatively nice but kooky family. It surprised me, I forgot that not everybody wastes as much time as I do on this forum lmao.

[GEML]

(Wry tone) if I gave up on religion just because it had become politicized, my whole life would be dramatically different. I'll always remember where I was when I had my first lecture on abortion - my Sunday School teacher had been at a "women's retreat" and had just received the "news." Ironically, it was just before Hollywood actor Ronald Reagan was running against devout Christian Jimmy for president. I was 10.

And it's never stopped from that moment, although the subject sometimes changes.

Edited June 16, 2015 by GEML

[TomServo]

I guess you could concider us funny lite, I'm southern baptist and I've never heard of the jesus prayer either. I'm actually about to call my Sunday school teacher and ask her about it

 

I'm pretty sure the original person who brought up the "Jesus Prayer" was simply making a reference to the trite and extra-Biblical  "Jesus, please come into my heart right now and that will save me" type of prayer that is printed on every evangelical tract I've ever been handed.  As the Wikipedia article states, "The structure and content of the Jesus Prayer also bears a resemblance to the 'Sinner's Prayer' used by many Evangelical Protestants."

[MrsMommy]

Oh I know tomservo I was just saying I've never heard of it and after asking my Sunday school teacher she has never heard of it either

[GEML]

I'm the one who brought it up - never meant to cause so much confusion! I only meant to show that given the enormous diversity of Christian religions, let along so much diversity within the denominations, there is no way of saying THIS is a necessary Christian experience.

(And I threw the Jesus Prayer in there actually as the latest attempt to co-opt something from another cultural tradition and make it "authentic" - we've done the same with Celtic labyrinths and Jewish Seders, and I'm amused now when I see Evangelical churches using Orthodox meditations.)

[msblossom]

I'm pretty sure the original person who brought up the "Jesus Prayer" was simply making a reference to the trite and extra-Biblical  "Jesus, please come into my heart right now and that will save me" type of prayer that is printed on every evangelical tract I've ever been handed.  As the Wikipedia article states, "The structure and content of the Jesus Prayer also bears a resemblance to the 'Sinner's Prayer' used by many Evangelical Protestants."

  

I'm the one who brought it up - never meant to cause so much confusion! I only meant to show that given the enormous diversity of Christian religions, let along so much diversity within the denominations, there is no way of saying THIS is a necessary Christian experience. (And I threw the Jesus Prayer in there actually as the latest attempt to co-opt something from another cultural tradition and make it "authentic" - we've done the same with Celtic labyrinths and Jewish Seders, and I'm amused now when I see Evangelical churches using Orthodox meditations.)

As someone who has prayed the Sinner's Prayer (or if you prefer, Jesus Prayer), I agree it's extra biblical and praying it doesn't save a person. The emphasis should be less on the praying of a prayer, but more on the belief of Christ who died for my sin and bridges the gap between myself and God. Acknowledging that in my mind and accepting the grace of God, and giving allegiance to God causes a transformation in the way I think and live. For some, it's a dramatic transformation and for others it's a process. Neither is better than the other. As believers, we are all a work in progress and the transformation continues until we go to be with The Lord.

Back to THE PRAYER, I can see where you might think it's "trite", but for those of us who have prayed that prayer and meant it, it's anything but trite. It's not necessary what I pray, but what I believe -- and Jesus himself speaks to that throughout the gospels.

[Rhondinella]

I don't know that the prayer itself is trite.  However, it has been made trite (tritized?) by the modern evangelistic movement which, in its zeal to reach people as quickly and simply as possible, reduced what is actually a complicated on-going process into three quick and easy steps for easier marketing. But true belief and religion require that eventually you go deeper than that.

 

However, that's not to say those three steps have never motivated someone to start on the road to belief.

[kokapetl]

I'm the one who brought it up - never meant to cause so much confusion! I only meant to show that given the enormous diversity of Christian religions, let along so much diversity within the denominations, there is no way of saying THIS is a necessary Christian experience.

(And I threw the Jesus Prayer in there actually as the latest attempt to co-opt something from another cultural tradition and make it "authentic" - we've done the same with Celtic labyrinths and Jewish Seders, and I'm amused now when I see Evangelical churches using Orthodox meditations.)

Like the labyrinth at Chartres Cathedral, and the trefoil spirals at Newgrange? Wouldn't that be Catholic syncretism and doubly bad?

[GEML]

Oh, anything the Catholics took from the Celts- VERY VERY bad. if only we had Ben Seewald here to tell us that we are all lost! ;)

[Happyfatchick]

...reduced what is actually a complicated on-going process into three quick and easy steps for easier marketing.

OH! You WERE there, weren't you? 3 steps, A-B-C. That's as clear in my head almost 50 years later as it was then!

Edited June 17, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[TomServo]

...it has been made trite (tritized?) by the modern evangelistic movement which, in its zeal to reach people as quickly and simply as possible, reduced what is actually a complicated on-going process into three quick and easy steps for easier marketing. But true belief and religion require that eventually you go deeper than that.

 

This is what I meant.  When you slap the same script on the back of every tract or blog post or whatever with instructions that "if you're ready to be saved then just read this out loud" and then immediately "Congratulations!  This means Jesus has come into your life!  The End!" then it has been made trite.  I used to get a Christian current events type of magazine for my kids and there was a page in the front of every issue that said that (we're talking a magazine aimed at the elementary set).  I tore it out before my kids saw it.  Not that I don't want them to pray, but that I didn't want them absorbing that messaging and getting the idea that, "Hey, I read this page in my magazine so *poof* that's all there is to it!"  Who knew the Bible could have just been a magazine page instead?  While I do think it is possible to read a pre-written prayer and mean it from your own heart (and I've done so before, including praying some of the Psalms), I do not think the "Jesus prayer" contains a magic formula of words the way it is often sold.

The thing that was big when I was in college was for people to leave those "Four Spiritual Laws" booklets littered all over the place.  I just went to see if it is still in existence, and it is, along with a how-to page that gives a script of how to drag the prayer out of a reluctant prospect (including "repeat after me").  

Three steps?  The church I grew up in had six (it was originally five because five fits on one hand for ease of helping kids memorize them).

[Happyfatchick]

The ABC's of salvation: accept, believe, confess.

Of course, "accept" has several sub-steps, "believe" has some more, and "confess" is loaded. I'll have to find it and count how many "steps" are actually compacted into those 3 steps. Maybe... we Baptists need the shorthand version. (Bubba only knows as far as "C".) Or maybe we're so close to the fire we need the shortest route possible! ;)

[msblossom]

The ABC's of salvation: accept, believe, confess.

Of course, "accept" has several sub-steps, "believe" has some more, and "confess" is loaded. I'll have to find it and count how many "steps" are actually compacted into those 3 steps. Maybe... we Baptists need the shorthand version. (Bubba only knows as far as "C".) Or maybe we're so close to the fire we need the shortest route possible! ;)

I wasn't raised Baptist and had never heard of the ABC's of salvation until my husband and I taught VBS at a Baptist church almost 10 years ago one summer. I couldn't tell you all the sub-steps or that there were any. I guess that tells you how well it struck with me over the years. The church we're involved with now isn't very Baptist-y, and has a bit of a reputation among the other SBC churches as a bit different. We're probably closer to an Anglican church in style and liturgical with a little Baptist and hipster thrown in.

[anony mouse]

The ABC's of salvation: accept, believe, confess.

Of course, "accept" has several sub-steps, "believe" has some more, and "confess" is loaded. I'll have to find it and count how many "steps" are actually compacted into those 3 steps. Maybe... we Baptists need the shorthand version. (Bubba only knows as far as "C".) Or maybe we're so close to the fire we need the shortest route possible! ;)

As a Catholic, that is so foreign to me and fascinating - do they give you a list with all the steps as a how-to guide? Who determines if you've done the steps right? What happens if you change to another Baptist church and they don't think you've done the steps right?

[Ilovemylabs]

If you want an example of real Christianity you only have to listen to the devastated and heartbroken words of the victims' families in the SC church shooting.  Through their tears they forgave the shooter, Dylann Roof. 

 

'Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us"   The Lord's Prayer

Edited June 20, 2015 by Ilovemylabs

[becca3891]

That said, the amount of casual anti-semitism one encounters in everyday life might surprise you. 

It wouldn't surprise me, and I'm not even Jewish. I have been very unpleasantly surprised at the various anti-Semitic remarks I have encountered over the years. Whereas, never once have I ever heard someone criticized simply for being Christian. Fundies have no concept of the reality that the complaints about them have everything to do with how much they get into others' faces and try to tell them how they should live their lives. That is what is so offensive. It is ridiculous they way they try to turn that into "persecution."

 

I'm former Fundy with some extended family who dress and act in such a way as to make the Duggars seem pretty liberal, to tell you the truth. (Promise rings? That's vain adornment of the body, thank you....)

But there's no outcry against them. I have ties to Amish and Mennonite communities which are often downright revered in America for their Fundamentalist Christian beliefs.

But I do agree that there are people who know nothing about the family who hate them. There are people who are enjoying their sordid downfall.

But I believe it's because they are not only Christian and Fundamentlist, but very active in a political way. I realize that there are many who will equate their political beliefs with "Christian" beliefs, but that is a very recent development constructed by power brokers. I am old enough to remember a Christian and Fundy world where politics was NEVER discussed.

Now, they have every right to speak out politically. I believe that and will fight for that 100%. But that's not the same as being persecuted for Christianity (I'm a Christian, and I'm certainly not persecuted) or even for Fundamentalism. Because the flip side of their right to speak out politically is another's right to speak out against them.

Politics is a DIRTY business. There is a very good reason Christians stayed out of it until the late 1970's. You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. The Duggars just need to deal with their own fleas right now instead of insisting everyone else has them but them.

GEML, I wholeheartedly agree. To be making robocalls about the supposed evils of transgender people, and in general trying to tell others how to live their lives by way of political action, is what has everyone so upset with them.

Show me a Duggar that has actually read the U.S. Constitution...

Sadly, most of them probably have. The ultra right wingers pretend to be slavishly devoted to the Constitution and love to quote it. They just don't seem to be able to use any common sense when interpreting it.

[lookeyloo]

As a Jew, the cry that Christians in America are being persecuted or even attacked for their beliefs makes me want to slam my head into the wall. Repeatedly. And no, I do NOT believe that Jews are being persecuted in America. America has been very good for Jews overall, one of the best environments we've ever had in the diaspora. That said, the amount of casual anti-semitism one encounters in everyday life might surprise you. The casual othering; the insults tossed into conversations that are not even about Judaism OR individual Jews; the vicious hatred that can spring up unexpectedly at any time -- and this is what we consider NOT being persecuted. This is how it is every day, in a very very good place for Jews (everything's relative and the Jewish people have a long collective memory). You have no idea.

I'm sorry I had to add my voice to this discussion, given that the entire thing was prompted by a straw man argument I'd otherwise prefer not to dignify. And I may get mod noted, or deleted. Sorry. I find I'm just not able to let it pass.

Being Jewish too, raised in the northeast and living in the Deep South for many years, this is very true. Sometimes people I have considered friends will throw one out there and when I call them on it say "oh, it's just an expression" or "I didn't mean you". Thanks!!

[Darknight]

You know what I don't understand, why do christians talk about having god everywhere. I read one post from my friend that said the South Carolina shooting happened because we took god out of schools. Every time when someone disagrees or go against their religion they cry they're being oppressed. Which they aren't. I'm a christian and I don't try to force my beliefs onto others including my children. I wish christians would understand that they're not superior and there's other religions that really are being oppressed in America. If we start making laws to make christians happy, then why can't we make laws to make Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, Hindus happy. Why not pass laws to allow Muslims to pray in schools or Buddhists to meditate. Why is America only for christians?

[Happyfatchick]

Well, Dark, they have the power to meet and be together in schools - I know my son spearheaded an effort for the FCLA to begin a chapter in his school. It wasn't part of "club meeting" time because they used Bibles and had a devotion. And it was successful (greater success than his subsequent effort to start a lacrosse team...). They had to have a teacher "sponsor" and met before school. They were allowed to bring in guest speakers, etc., like a youth pastor from a nearby church. If a, say, Muslim group wanted to form together, I don't think the school could refuse them if they met the criteria. I'm not arguing, I'm just saying it may not be a "school" issue, it may be lack of interest or initiative that makes non-Christian meetings not happen. They need a ballsy kid like mine I guess. I don't think they could "ban" a religious group of any kind from meeting, as long as it's not disruptive.

Edited. I apologize Big Sky!

Edited June 21, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[bigskygirl]

Okay...This is the religion thread. Please do not bring up the shooting in South Carolina or anything related to the shooting aka mental illness, crime, racism etc. etc. etc. Any posts about the shooting will be deleted or edited. Thank you for your cooperation and patience.

[GEML]

My son's public high school had plenty of Christian clubs that met during school hours. It also had a Muslim club, a Buddhist club and a club for students interested in world cultures and religions as ideas but not as converts.

Schools can either prohibit all clubs that might touch upon religion to before or after hours, or none. Given that it's all held to the same standard, it's not discrimination. It's usually decided at the school board level.

[Churchhoney]

The reason I feel the way I do is because you never see any good about Christians on tv, you get breaking news that christian man has murdered dog (example) but you don't hear that he murdered the dog because the dog attacked his child and ate her face. The news doesn't tell the world about the Christians who do go on missions and actually help, it doesn't tell about the churches who spend hours making meals for people who can't cook, or how the church donates money to different organizations that help people.

 

 

 

 

Apparently I watch the right channels, because never in my life have I heard a news story that identified a person charged with a crime as a Christian. And I've seen tons of stories of church food banks, mentoring programs and food kitchens, always linked to the name of the church or churches that sponsor them -- and not just at Christmas and Easter time either.

 

Don't know whether this is the parts of the country that I've lived in or whether it's just the channels, but if I were you I'd try flipping around the dial more, because at least on many channels what you describe is not the norm at all.

[becca3891]

Apparently I watch the right channels, because never in my life have I heard a news story that identified a person charged with a crime as a Christian. And I've seen tons of stories of church food banks, mentoring programs and food kitchens, always linked to the name of the church or churches that sponsor them -- and not just at Christmas and Easter time either.

 

Don't know whether this is the parts of the country that I've lived in or whether it's just the channels, but if I were you I'd try flipping around the dial more, because at least on many channels what you describe is not the norm at all.

Ditto. That person's example that a man could kill a dog because it attacked a child and bit its face off, and then just get called a Christian murderer, was frankly bizarre. That would never happen. And I don't think it's a case of which channel this person is watching. It's looking for something that's not there. Just like my Facebook news feed blows up every year with "It's MERRY CHRISTMAS, not HAPPY HOLIDAYS! Stop attacking Jesus and our holiday!" They truly see it as a personal attack when someone bids them a cheerful "Happy holidays" and I just cannot fathom that.

 

But getting it back to the Duggars, it's frustrating that they have turned it into a persecution issue rather than admitting that even all those evil, secular people are shocked and upset when they hear about sexual abuse.

[Churchhoney]

Ditto. That person's example that a man could kill a dog because it attacked a child and bit its face off, and then just get called a Christian murderer, was frankly bizarre. That would never happen. And I don't think it's a case of which channel this person is watching. It's looking for something that's not there. Just like my Facebook news feed blows up every year with "It's MERRY CHRISTMAS, not HAPPY HOLIDAYS! Stop attacking Jesus and our holiday!" They truly see it as a personal attack when someone bids them a cheerful "Happy holidays" and I just cannot fathom that.

 

But getting it back to the Duggars, it's frustrating that they have turned it into a persecution issue rather than admitting that even all those evil, secular people are shocked and upset when they hear about sexual abuse.

 

Bingo. I think maybe the thing that bugs me the very most is that they seem to think that morals are the sole province of their group. And they've taught this to a whole bunch of kids who are really not exposed to any other sources of information. I guess I sort of understand why True Believers have to think this -- if any other set of beliefs can also lead to decent behavior and a decent world then what's so special about yours? But I find that an upsetting idea. And the Duggars typify it.