Gimme That Old Time Religion

[kalamac]

Congratulations to you on your wedding and family. I'm not religious at all and don't see why people who follow a bible I don't believe in should have a say in whether I can get married. It's absurd.

It also bothers me that people always quote the Old Testament when speaking against marriage equality, while disregarding so many of the other Old Testament rules (you either follow it or you don't, you don't pick and choose the bits you like), especially when they bring Jesus into it. Even I know that Jesus is New Testament, which says nothing against homosexuality, but does say a whole lot about love and acceptance.

[galax-arena]

As a southern baptist christian and someone who has read the bible a few times, the bible says you can get divorced and remarry, but two divorced people can't marry each other, one has to have never been married or else it's sin.

It's something that a significant part of the denomination frowns upon though (http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/1205/on-the-scandal-of-southern-baptist-divorce), although it's not like they're going to kick anyone out (or else there'd be a lot of empty pews, heh). You might be barred from leadership, though. Of course the exact position on how bad it is depends on the individual church. From the Southern Baptist Convention's FAQ:

 

 

Can a divorced person serve as a pastor (or deacon) in an SBC church?

 

Once again, because of the autonomous nature of SBC churches, there is no policy within the Convention that addresses these matters. Each church directs its own affairs apart from outside intervention, deciding for itself how to deal with such matters.

 

Some Southern Baptist churches have called pastors or elected deacons who had been divorced, but there is no way of knowing how many have done so. There are Southern Baptist churches that would not base their decision on the issue of divorce. Others would want to know if the divorce fell within the parameters of what some refer to as a "biblically allowed" divorce. Still other Southern Baptist churches view I Timothy 3:2 as barring any divorced man from pastoral or deacon ministry. Again, there is no way for us to know the actual numbers, but there likely is a significant number of churches representing each view. Most churches probably fall into either of the last two categories.

The Duggars are Independent Baptists, IIRC, and although there's no "national" body along the lines of the SBC, I don't think it's inaccurate to categorize most IB/IFB churches as more conservative than a lot of Southern Baptist churches. So their take on divorce is probably more extreme. But it's really not something you're going to see a lot of mainstream churches preaching on at length because they know they've lost the war on that one. They're slowly losing the war against gay people too. It'll be interesting to see what the next scapegoat will be. Abortion? That's something that definitely gets the Duggars hot under the collar.

Edited April 10, 2015 by galax-arena

[NEGirl]

Congrads on your marriage. I have never understood why certain groups of people think they can tell other people how to live their lives. If you don't like something, fine, that is your right. I  just don't think they have the right to push their beliefs on everyone else. This is NOT a knock on anyone's beliefs or religion. Everyone has a right to worship and believe what they choose. Just don't tell me what I should think, what is "right" or how I should live my life. The Duggars and those other extreme groups are not very "Christian" towards other religions. In fact, they are quite hateful regarding this.  They think theirs is the only correct religion, which is certainly not following what the bible states. 

Edited April 10, 2015 by NEGirl

[hlemommy]

I think picking and choosing from the old testament is more of a conviction. For example the bible says don't be drunk, it doesn't say you can't have a glass of wine at your friends wedding. I think if you feel convicted to not drink that's a choice you have since God gave us freewill, while others may think a drink or two is fine. Same goes for "gay" support. My mother has been with a woman since I was 2 years old and I love her to death but if she was to ask me to bless her wedding to her girl friend I wouldn't be able to do it. I feel convicted enough to not do it. Kinda hard for me to explain I'm text sorry

[galax-arena]

In fact, I am Jewish, and my branch of Judaism has supported gay marriage for many, many years.

Your comment reminded me of how the United Church of Christ - a liberal Christian denomination that was one of the earliest to endorse marriage equality in the US - actually brought a lawsuit against North Carolina, alleging that a same-sex marriage ban violated their freedom of religion because it didn't allow pro-SSM ministers to act on their beliefs. I don't think that's what the Duggars had in mind when talking about religious freeeeedom. Be careful what you wish for! 

Edited April 10, 2015 by galax-arena

[Mrsjumbo]

I have no problem with a civil marriage between gays. I think absolutely you should be entitled to insurance money, benefits, etc that having a spouse entitles. If you religion allows the marriage & you want a religious ceremony, great!

But I'm Catholic & don't think they will ever approve a same sex marriage (as in performing the ceremony). My sister is gay & I would think she would have a problem with it, but she is very active in the catholic church.

I do think the country's opinion has swung the other way, & now if you don't approve of gay marriage you are seen as a homophobe. So I think the pushing of ideas of what is "right" Is coming from the gay side too. I really don't care what happens in the bedroom. Everyone no matter what sexual orientation should be treated with respect, & as long as there are equal rights (civil ceremony or religious ceremony if your religion allows), I would love for it to be a non issue. Seems like the media likes to stir it up on both sides (same as race relations), when most people I know IRL don't give it a thought.

[Gianthambeast]

Congratulations to you on your wedding and family. I'm not religious at all and don't see why people who follow a bible I don't believe in should have a say in whether I can get married. It's absurd.

It also bothers me that people always quote the Old Testament when speaking against marriage equality, while disregarding so many of the other Old Testament rules (you either follow it or you don't, you don't pick and choose the bits you like), especially when they bring Jesus into it. Even I know that Jesus is New Testament, which says nothing against homosexuality, but does say a whole lot about love and accepta

It bothers me too.  We don't live in a religiously monolithic society, so citing a text from a book that not everyone believes in doesn't hold up as a rational argument.

[JoanArc]

Part of Michelle's wonderful (barf) marriage advice is to never joke about or discuss divorce.

[Wellfleet]

Well, Laura Ingalls was clearly a brazen hussy. And way too independent-minded for the Duggars.

 

Some denominations/churches do consider divorce itself to be wrong. When I was part of a Southern Baptist affiliated college fellowship group, I remember asking my Bible study leader about divorce:

 

Me: "Okay, but what if the husband is abusive?"

Her: "Well, then we'd probably try to get you to a safer location, away from him if necessary."

Me: "But what about actually divorcing so I'm not tied to him anymore?"

Her: "..." 

 

Have we heard the Duggars ever speak about divorce, anyway? Like I said upthread, divorce isn't a convenient scapegoat for them, so of course they're not going to harp on it, but now I'm wondering if they've ever addressed the subject at all.

 

Not at all, to my recollection at least.

[galax-arena]

So I think the pushing of ideas of what is "right" Is coming from the gay side too.

Yeah, but IMO the two sides aren't equal when one side is about depriving a persecuted minority of equal rights. Or, even if you're in favor of gay marriage as a legal/secular contract, thinking of it as wrong or "less than." Not that I think people shouldn't have the right to believe the latter, but then I also have the right to believe that their belief is prejudiced. 

 

Seems like the media likes to stir it up on both sides (same as race relations), when most people I know IRL don't give it a thought.

I think it's actually a lot of the vocal leaders of the Christian right who are largely responsible for this, although of course the media does play a part because they're the ones giving these people a platform. You see someone like Josh Duggar and the rest of his cohorts professing to speak for all Christians in condemning homosexuality and, at least until recently, a lot of LGBT-affirming Christians weren't very vocal about it. And there weren't as many religious leaders speaking in favor, either. So it's easy to think that most Christians as a whole are very much against it.

 

I used to find myself feeling very bitter/antagonistic towards Christianity as a whole because all I see are assholes like Josh Duggar and Tony Perkins and Michael Brown and Scott Lively and Linda Harvey and all those anti-gay politicians running their mouths and proclaiming that they speak for all Christians. Believe it or not, it was actually a reddit subthread (of all things) that changed my mind; I visited r/Christianity and realized that wow, there were actually a lot of Christians who didn't think like that. There were Christians who thought that being gay was just fine and thought that "love the sinner, hate the sin" was bunk. And then the recent polls came out saying that even among more conservative evangelical denominations, 43% (?) of millennials supported it. 

 

The Duggars might like to think they stand for all Christians, but they don't. Suck it, Duggars. And now I really want to see what Josh's reaction would be upon hearing about the United Church of Christ lawsuit I mentioned upthread. How's that for religious freedom? And how do you think Josh and Anna would react if a Muslim tried to insist on their rights under the RFRA, considering Anna's horror over NYC schools closing for two Islamic holidays?

Edited April 10, 2015 by galax-arena

[floridamom]

To some people and groups, gay marriage is an oxymoron and to some groups gay marriage is a basic human right. Would a Christian baker not bake a wedding cake for a Jewish couple, for example? That baker obviously doesn't believe all that the Jewish couple believe nor does that baker live out his/her life as that engaged couple do,. I think that there will always be differences of belief systems, lifestyles, etc., and there always have been those things on this earth.

I also think that every person. in this country, anyway, has the ability to agree or to not agree with every lifestyle, that is why we have choices in the U.S. and free will from the Almighty...to choose what we are most comfortable with in our own lives. Having said that, what I don't agree with is ANY group infringing on the abilities of other to carry out their belief systems and lives in peace and fulfillment as they see it. Neither should cross the line and make the other feel unsafe or hated. We all need to be mutually respectful of one another in this world....why that is so hard for all human beings on this planet to successfully do is beyond me.

I am uncomfortable with militant groups no matter what they stand for. We should all be nice to each other. Hopefully, I don't sound like a "Pollyanna" here, but I hope I made my point clear and didn't ramble too much..I'm getting ready to move long distance, (a prayer answered for me) and I'm quite tired. thanks guys, for allowing me to post my opinion. We should all be good to one another.

[SunnyBeBe]

I have heard Michelle speak of babies being like having many flowers. Do you know if she bases that on any bible scripture?

 

 And do they have any scripture that says that having many babies is like having many blessings.  I'm not talking about  the one in Genesis that says, be blessed and go forth and multiply" from the old Testament.  But, is there anything in the New Testament about it?

Edited April 10, 2015 by SunnyBeBe

[galax-arena]

Still Old Testament, but I believe the Duggars use Psalms 127:3-5 as their basis: 3 Children are a heritage from the Lord, offspring a reward from him. 4 Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are children born in one’s youth. 5 Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. They will not be put to shame when they contend with their opponents in court.

[floridamom]

Anyone notice #4: "children born in one's YOUTH? Pay attention Michelle, you aren't youthful anymore. Time for that is over.

[GEML]

There are plenty of verses about children being troublesome and a vexation. The Bible is handy like that! ;)

[floridamom]

Yes, I know SunnyBeBe, what Michelle is referring to....she was on the TTH some years ago and made that statement equating that to a quote from Mother Teresa of Calcutta, a CATHOLIC nun. Mother Teresa said that she cares for as many children that need caring for and how can anyone say that there are too many of those to take in and love? Mother Teresa meant that pertaining to orphaned, abandoned, and needy children on this earth who are ALREADY BORN...she didn't mean to birth as many as humanly possible over 30-40 years,, Michelle. As usual, the MOTY, put her own interpretation on someone else's quote, ie like the bible quotes.

[mbutterfly]

Not all divorce is wrong. I have a friend and her dad cheated on her mom (this is when we were growing up), and they divorced. Well, is it the divorce that was wrong, or the cheating? It's not divorce that's wrong, it's the things that cause it.

I think it is a matter of one's beliefs. I try to keep in mind that Jim Bob Duggar has as much right to his beliefs as I do. I know as a United Methodist with an MDiv, I like to feel my beliefs are truly Scripture-based and have centuries of tradition as a resource as well. But as rational and scholarly as I like to be, it still comes down to my beliefs are simply that. And Jim Bob's are simply that. I may think Jim Bob takes advantage of the relatively powerful male role in his belief system. It still seems to me these are his beliefs. I don't see him as actually abusive. Is TFDW actually abusive? My guess is he's a pretty terrible husband because he has some pretty overwhelming cognitive dissonance going on. But that's just my guess. So, is all divorce wrong? Some people read it that way and believe accordingly. Is all gay marriage wrong. Some people read it that way and believe accordingly. 

[Mrsjumbo]

Part of Michelle's wonderful (barf) marriage advice is to never joke about or discuss divorce.

Didn't Bin's dad bring up divorce in his pre-wedding prayer with the groomsmen? LOL!

To some people and groups, gay marriage is an oxymoron and to some groups gay marriage is a basic human right. Would a Christian baker not bake a wedding cake for a Jewish couple, for example? That baker obviously doesn't believe all that the Jewish couple believe nor does that baker live out his/her life as that engaged couple do,. I think that there will always be differences of belief systems, lifestyles, etc., and there always have been those things on this earth.

I also think that every person. in this country, anyway, has the ability to agree or to not agree with every lifestyle, that is why we have choices in the U.S. and free will from the Almighty...to choose what we are most comfortable with in our own lives. Having said that, what I don't agree with is ANY group infringing on the abilities of other to carry out their belief systems and lives in peace and fulfillment as they see it. Neither should cross the line and make the other feel unsafe or hated. We all need to be mutually respectful of one another in this world....why that is so hard for all human beings on this planet to successfully do is beyond me.

I am uncomfortable with militant groups no matter what they stand for. We should all be nice to each other. Hopefully, I don't sound like a "Pollyanna" here, but I hope I made my point clear and didn't ramble too much..I'm getting ready to move long distance, (a prayer answered for me) and I'm quite tired. thanks guys, for allowing me to post my opinion. We should all be good to one another.

I'm with you Floridamom. In the words of Rodney King "can't we all just get along?" Maybe it's Pollyanna of me, but I wish it was true.

[duggarshow]

I think picking and choosing from the old testament is more of a conviction. For example the bible says don't be drunk, it doesn't say you can't have a glass of wine at your friends wedding. I think if you feel convicted to not drink that's a choice you have since God gave us freewill, while others may think a drink or two is fine. Same goes for "gay" support. My mother has been with a woman since I was 2 years old and I love her to death but if she was to ask me to bless her wedding to her girl friend I wouldn't be able to do it. I feel convicted enough to not do it. Kinda hard for me to explain I'm text sorry

 

You actually explained that very well. It was well said, and, I'm sure, well thought out.

[Portia]

Part of Michelle's wonderful (barf) marriage advice is to never joke about or discuss divorce.

I actually abide my that policy; my husband and I have never joked about divorce. We do, however, threaten to murder one another in ghastly ways. :-)

I think the Bible's pretty consistent about new life being miraculous and children being a blessing, but the "full quiver" passages need to be considered within the culture and age in which they were written. There have been historical contexts in which each additional child was actually a financial asset--another pair of hands to work the family farm, for example--but most of us nowadays, while perhaps not not actually describing our children as "financial liabilities," see each child as a considerable financial responsibility. But that's because we believe we should let our children be children and that they should support themselves, not the family, once they've been equipped to do so. Believe me, I don't think kids need to be lavished with the best of everything, and I definitely think they should perform chores to help maintain the family household. But it seems to me that t the only way people like the Duggars can make the old-school quiverfull work is to employ parenting practices that most of us consider borderline abusive ... and/or to luck into a reality TV gravy train!

Edited April 11, 2015 by Portia

[Apple Clark]

Ok, I have a question, and I swear I am not being combative, I want to genuinely understand this.

 

I respect that you believe the bible and Jesus were against gay marriage. That's your beliefs and I would never tell anyone they aren't allowed to believe their own religion. However, I am not christian, did not grow up in a christian faith, and do not believe in Jesus as a religious figure. In fact, I am Jewish, and my branch of Judaism has supported gay marriage for many, many years. My wife and I had a religious ceremony before a rabbi, and we have a jewish marriage contract (a Ketubah) in addition to our state marriage license. We have a young child who is being raised jewish and was blessed with a jewish name and welcomed into the jewish faith. Essentially, we want and need absolutely nothing from your faith, nor are we asking for any blessing or approval from your church.

 

Given all that, why does it matter to you if I am married to another woman?

I'm sorry I just saw this. It doesn't matter to me, however, I don't agree with it. But I don't hate gay people, I don't think Jesus does, I don't think gay people are going to hell, I just don't support it. Why does it matter to you if I don't support gay marriage?

[kalamac]

On a personal level it bothers me, because marriage isn't only a religious right. If it was atheists couldn't get married, and religious couples wouldn't need a state license for their marriage to be legal. It is a human right. So when I hear people say they don't believe I should have the right to get married, the same right they have regardless of their beliefs, purely because they are heterosexual, it makes me feel like they consider me to be less than human, even if that isn't their intention.

[questionfear]

I'm sorry I just saw this. It doesn't matter to me, however, I don't agree with it. But I don't hate gay people, I don't think Jesus does, I don't think gay people are going to hell, I just don't support it. Why does it matter to you if I don't support gay marriage?

It doesnt, as long as you don't prevent civil recognition of gay marriage. It's when people argue their beliefs mean that the government shouldn't give me a marriage license that i get upset. :)

[Darknight]

Matriage is a civil rights not a religious right. As a christian, christians didn't create marriage nor do they own it. I suppose gays getting married and having rights. But trying to take those rights away and saying gays should be killed and are going to hell is wrong. An atheist can get married so why can't gays.

[Ilovemylabs]

I have no problem with a civil marriage between gays. I think absolutely you should be entitled to insurance money, benefits, etc that having a spouse entitles. If you religion allows the marriage & you want a religious ceremony, great!

But I'm Catholic & don't think they will ever approve a same sex marriage (as in performing the ceremony). My sister is gay & I would think she would have a problem with it, but she is very active in the catholic church.

I do think the country's opinion has swung the other way, & now if you don't approve of gay marriage you are seen as a homophobe. So I think the pushing of ideas of what is "right" Is coming from the gay side too. I really don't care what happens in the bedroom. Everyone no matter what sexual orientation should be treated with respect, & as long as there are equal rights (civil ceremony or religious ceremony if your religion allows), I would love for it to be a non issue. Seems like the media likes to stir it up on both sides (same as race relations), when most people I know IRL don't give it a thought.

I couldn't agree more.  I think your comments were well put and explain my take on this issue as well. I could not belong to a church where gay weddings were performed, but I have no problem with other churches performing such ceremonies. Gays should have the same civil rights and benefits as everyone else. I just wish that because of my stance I was not considered a homophobe (I'm not), but 'tolerance' seems to be a one way street these days. 

[kassygreene]

In the U.S. the state version of marriage has nothing to do with any religious ceremony, and a religious marriage is not legal in the eyes of the state without a state-recognized/certified officiant, the appropriate paperwork, and filing of same.  My sister's marriage as far as the state of California is concerned began when the paperwork was signed and witnessed, and was known to exist when the paperwork was filed with the state.  

 

Here in Florida now that licenses must be issued, the civil authorities in many counties are refusing to perform marriages for anybody.  This is what all those bullshit religious liberty laws are about - a way to allow people to fail to separate church and state.  When a business refuses service, capitalism allows the customers to go elsewhere (not always possible, but market forces do get a say).  When an agent of the government refuses to separate church from state, that person should lose his job, benefits, and pension.

[galax-arena]

I just wish that because of my stance I was not considered a homophobe (I'm not), but 'tolerance' seems to be a one way street these days.

I don't believe that one must be tolerant of another person's intolerance. Otherwise, we could go on forever, i.e. you should be tolerant of my intolerance to your intolerance, but then I should be tolerant of your intolerance to my intolerance of your intolerance, but consequently you should be tolerant of my intolerance to your intolerance of my intolerance to your intolerance, etc. This isn't Inception, we don't need to go deeper. The truth is that no one is literally 100% tolerant of everything in the world ever. And tolerance by itself is not necessarily a virtue. There are a lot of things I'm intolerant about. Racism. Sexism. Homophobia. And yes, I do believe a religion that does not allow gay marriage is a homophobic one. It means you do not view gay sexuality as being equal to straight sexuality, and that's homophobic, IMO. Homophobia is so much more complicated than literally hating gay people, just like racism is more than literally hating POC or burning crosses on people's lawns while wearing KKK hoods. 

 

Another example: I think that the Duggars' views on women are sexist. Obviously they don't literally hate women, but they put women at a position subservient to men and make them responsible for men's shortcomings (e.g. lust). 

 

One is certainly entitled to their religious beliefs of course, as long as they don't try to impose them on the rest of us via legislature. But by the same token, people are allowed to find those beliefs bigoted or distasteful. 

Edited April 11, 2015 by galax-arena

[lookeyloo]

Interesting comments for sure.  I also agree with the point made by galaxy-arena that people are entitled to their religious beliefs but don't try to impose them on the rest of us via legislature.  In this country one does not need a religious ceremony to be legally married.  A justice of the peace or other similar title can legally marry people with no religion involved.   

 

I also don't understand the notion that gay marriage somehow weakens heterosexual marriage.  All the gay people in the world that are married now don't have any impact on my personal heterosexual marriage.

[GEML]

I'm actually very supportive of religions that don't permit women ministers or interracial marriage or any other position that you want to take. I take freedom of conscience within the church very, very, strongly, and I'm going to defend your right to do that. I'm not going to be part of that, of course, but it's your right. I'd rather allow ugliness than have government obligated "prettiness" because that "prettiness" will turn to ugliness no matter what.

That's different than keeping other people from being allowed their ugly/prettiness. That's the deal.

[questionfear]

At the risk of sounding schmoopy, I think we need a big group hug. This is a touchy subject, and even when we all don't agree it has been civil, polite, and informative. You all are awesome.

[Ilovemylabs]

I don't believe that one must be tolerant of another person's intolerance. Otherwise, we could go on forever, i.e. you should be tolerant of my intolerance to your intolerance, but then I should be tolerant of your intolerance to my intolerance of your intolerance, but consequently you should be tolerant of my intolerance to your intolerance of my intolerance to your intolerance, etc. This isn't Inception, we don't need to go deeper. The truth is that no one is literally 100% tolerant of everything in the world ever. And tolerance by itself is not necessarily a virtue. There are a lot of things I'm intolerant about. Racism. Sexism. Homophobia. And yes, I do believe a religion that does not allow gay marriage is a homophobic one. It means you do not view gay sexuality as being equal to straight sexuality, and that's homophobic, IMO. Homophobia is so much more complicated than literally hating gay people, just like racism is more than literally hating POC or burning crosses on people's lawns while wearing KKK hoods. 

 

Another example: I think that the Duggars' views on women are sexist. Obviously they don't literally hate women, but they put women at a position subservient to men and make them responsible for men's shortcomings (e.g. lust). 

 

One is certainly entitled to their religious beliefs of course, as long as they don't try to impose them on the rest of us via legislature. But by the same token, people are allowed to find those beliefs bigoted or distasteful. 

Just as one might tolerate gay marriage but find it wrong.  As another poster wrote, there are lots of things one must tolerate without agreeing with them or liking them or approving of them.  If you do not support gay marriage for religious reasons (but do nothing to interfere with it in terms of civil rights, etc.) then you are not a homophobe.  You are simply following your religious beliefs.  If some one else does not agree with that particular belief then so be it.  However nothing is gained by calling names. In fact, that is straight out of Saul Alinski.  Marginalize those who disagree with you by giving them a label (anti-semite, bigot, homophobe, racist).   I think we should bring this back to the Duggars.  I guess most of us do not agree with their particular interpretation of Scriptures.  I am content to live my life and let God judge all of us.  I have a feeling that many of us (myself included) might be in for a big surprise on judgement day!

[KatWay]

From the Jill&Derick thread because it's more on this topic:

 

 

I thought most Christians/jews/etc. Believed in the rapture?? I should probably get out more... I know the rapture is coming but not everyone believes...

 

I personally don't know anybody who believes in that and I live in a predominantly Christian country and know tons of Christian people. It's definitely something that fundamentalist Christians believe in, so Jill and Derick probably do too. Which makes their entire pro-Jewish propaganda pretty off-putting to me.

[questionfear]

From the Jill&Derick thread because it's more on this topic:

I personally don't know anybody who believes in that and I live in a predominantly Christian country and know tons of Christian people. It's definitely something that fundamentalist Christians believe in, so Jill and Derick probably do too. Which makes their entire pro-Jewish propaganda pretty off-putting to me.

Jews definitely do not believe in the Rapture, as that's a new testament thing.

[JenCarroll]

Jews definitely do not believe in the Rapture, as that's a new testament thing.

Right, but the fundies believe all the Jews have to return to Israel before the Rapture can happen. That's where their big support for Israel comes from, as far as I understand it.

[hlemommy]

I'm far from a fundi and I deff believe in the second coming of jesus. The churches I've been to in sc and indiana all believe in the rapture. Christian churches and baptist. Even my drug headed sister believes in it. The bible tells us it will happen.

[GEML]

The rapture as in the "Left behind" idea is a very modern idea, and almost no one outside of America believes in it.

[Absolom]

I would say the majority of Christians in the world do not believe in the Rapture theory.  Eastern orthodox and Catholics don't take Revelation in the same literal word for word meaning as US biblical literalists.   Many other denominations also don't accept that as doctrine.  I'd never heard of it until the Hal Lindsey books.  

 

The Duggars, however, seem to latch onto almost all the scare tactics of getting people into their rather extreme views and keeping them there.  It was a rapture theory movie that scared Michelle into "getting saved" wasn't it?  

[mbutterfly]

Jews definitely do not believe in the Rapture, as that's a new testament thing.

It references the New Testament, but the concept was first written about in 1830 so it isn't a part of any long Christian tradition. John Nelson Darby was the author. 

[Vaysh]

 

I'm far from a fundi and I deff believe in the second coming of jesus. The churches I've been to in sc and indiana all believe in the rapture. Christian churches and baptist. Even my drug headed sister believes in it. The bible tells us it will happen.

 

I'm a little confused by the terms used here. Is the Rapture used as a synonym for Judgement Day and the Second Coming? Because I thought that the Rapture was a specific event where all the proper, righteous Christians get lifted up to the heavens above to (in the words of Pratchett's Aziraphale) "sneer at the people dying of radiation sickness on the parched and burning earth below them. If that's your idea of a morally acceptable time".

 

Pratchett aside I'd never heard of the Rapture before I started reading up on the American Fundamentalist Christians when they became loud and weird enough to make an impression across the pond. Now, I'm an atheist myself but I've spent plenty of time in Lutheran church choirs, partaking in Pentacostal youth activities and discussing religion with friends and relatives of various Christian denominations ranging from Baptist to Coptic and including ministers and vicars. The Rapture (as in certain people literally being lifted up to heaven during the apocalypse) is just not a thing. I don't think I've ever heard anyone not American mention it. It does sound like something the Duggars would be keen on.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Vaysh

[kalamac]

I'm Australian, and none of the religious people I know, including the pastor at the hospital where I work (I just asked him, he's Anglican if it matters), and a friend who studied theology, think the rapture is an actual thing. I'd never heard of it until I read Robert Heinlein's Job.

[GEML]

It's very much tied to American theology. It was started by an Englishman, but really didn't take root until American churches. I'd say that the majority of American churches believe in some form of the Second coming, but even among the most ardent believers of the rapture there is enormous in fighting as to what order, what specific details, etc. Many, for instance, do not think all Jewish people need to be in Israel, only that Israel needed to be recognized. Many believe the Rapture does not take place until after the Anti-Christ comes to power.

(Wry grin) Christians can't agree on when to pour water over your head or how to drink a purple drink or swallow bread. What makes you think we could interpret and entire book of the Bible and agree on it? :)

[DangerousMinds]

I would say the majority of Christians in the world do not believe in the Rapture theory.  Eastern orthodox and Catholics don't take Revelation in the same literal word for word meaning as US biblical literalists.   Many other denominations also don't accept that as doctrine.  I'd never heard of it until the Hal Lindsey books.  

 

The Duggars, however, seem to latch onto almost all the scare tactics of getting people into their rather extreme views and keeping them there.  It was a rapture theory movie that scared Michelle into "getting saved" wasn't it?

Now I DID really enjoy the movie "The Rapture," LOL. that was probably the first time I had ever heard that idea even after 18 years of church-going. And that was some crazy shit.

I'm so happy to be atheist now; every day is "judgment day." As in I just try to live each day the best I can, because that's all there is. YMMV.

Learning lots here though.

[JenCarroll]

.Many, for instance, do not think all Jewish people need to be in Israel, only that Israel needed to be recognized.

Good thing, because I seriously doubt we could all fit in Israel at this point. :-)

[truelovekiss]

Good thing, because I seriously doubt we could all fit in Israel at this point. :-)

But we can all fit in Jacksonville!

[GEML]

If you want to see a bunch of Fundy's go at it, start insisting that YOUR interpretation of Revelation is the accurate one. Woo-boy, the gloves will come off!!!

[Wellfleet]

If you want to see a bunch of Fundy's go at it, start insisting that YOUR interpretation of Revelation is the accurate one. Woo-boy, the gloves will come off!!!

 

Well, I gotta say I bet that's right! They should get smart and sell tickets to that show - make a little money at least... :>)

[Catlyn]

I'm a little confused by the terms used here. Is the Rapture used as a synonym for Judgement Day and the Second Coming? Because I thought that the Rapture was a specific event where all the proper, righteous Christians get lifted up to the heavens above to (in the words of Pratchett's Aziraphale) "sneer at the people dying of radiation sickness on the parched and burning earth below them. If that's your idea of a morally acceptable time".

As I understand it, the Rapture is supposed to be only a part of the Second Coming. It's not a synonym for Judgment Day or the Second Coming of Christ. When I first heard of it, I didn't like the idea because the "sneer at the people dying of radiation sickness..." connotations. The people I knew who believed were so glad about it, I felt uncomfortable. How can you be a true Christian and not care about the people left behind?

[GEML]

This is just the thing - there are all kinds of ideas about what all this means. After the LEFT BEHIND books came out, and before that, the Hal Linsdey movie, there is a pop culture understanding, but there is by no means any kind of consensus.

[Cherrio]

All this talk about Rapture, only thing that comes to my mind is a jockstrap that broke.  :(

[galax-arena]

The definitive movie on the Rapture is clearly Rapture-palooza starring Anna Kendrick. 

 

 

 

 

And no, I'm totally not just saying that in an attempt to trick you into watching the movie so that you can share my misery....