S08.E16: Wrath

[GenerationX]

I'm not convinced Dwight is gone from the show.

Having an ensemble cast is one thing.  Having so many that you run out of theme music trying to name them all in the opening credits is another.

I wish I had stopped watching after Season 5, Episode 9.  That episode is the last episode before we are introduced to Alexandria and 3+ seasons of increasing cast size and decreasing quality.

[Ohwell]

35 minutes ago, Gudzilla said:

I'm surprised that so many people are upset about Negan still being alive. I thought the last few episodes made it clear that Simon & his friends were responsible for all the horrible stuff the Saviors did. ;)

Well, there was that bat thingy with Glenn and Abraham, for starters.  Not to mention being a rapist and face-ironer.  Plus, we don't know how many people he himself killed before we saw him. 

[BellyLaughter]

34 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

Well, there was that bat thingy with Glenn and Abraham, for starters.  Not to mention being a rapist and face-ironer.  Plus, we don't know how many people he himself killed before we saw him. 

Don't forget burning their only doctor alive....

[Rosiejuliemom]

3 minutes ago, BellyLaughter said:

Don't forget burning their only doctor alive....

Disemboweling Spencer while making a *really* bad pun.

Ordering Arat to kill an Alexandrian at random (poor Olivia).

Making his wives dress like extras in a discount Robert Palmer video.*

 

I'd say Negan has done plenty to warrant his execution.

*Not death worthy, but vastly creepy

[MichaelaRae]

9 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I have more sympathy for Abraham going toes up than I do Glenn.

If Maggie doesn't get knocked up, there wouldn't have been a need to drag her ass to the Hilltop, and both Glenn and Abraham would probably still be  alive.  Yes, I know Glenn shares some of the blame for knocking Maggie up.  That said, I do wonder if Maggie has felt the least amount of guilt over Abraham's death?

So I know this is a TV show and fictional characters, and I have my own issues with Maggie, but WOW, that is some victim blaming. The ONLY person to blame for Negan taking a bat to Abraham or Glen's head is Negan. Period. Full stop.

[AngelaHunter]

14 hours ago, Smad said:

Never understood why Maggie (and Beth) needed to have such a pronounced accent.

And two different accents, neither of which their father had.  Maggie sounds like she was raised in Dogpatch, and Beth's non-accent consisted soley of her droppin' the final "g" in any word ending in "ing".

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I understand the show is in love with Jeffrey Dean Morgan. I just don't understand how they can so willfully ignore the fans and what's happening with the ratings.

They willfully ignore their own story. Rick is all, "I'm gonna KILL you!" x 10 and on every means of communication left, then when he finally might be able to overcome his own buffoonery and actually do it - well, after both them speechify mightily in the middle of a lethal fight (That would be a great subject for YT's "Rap Battles of History". Yes please!) -  he doesn't. Well, yes, the Brotherly Love Commandments were handed down by St. Coral so there's the abrupt about-face, "I'm NOT gonna KILL you!" After all, Negan didn't kill any of Rick's loved ones. He wasn't married to Glenn, so that can be overlooked.

Daryl had no problem killing Morales on the spot when he never did anything to Daryl and surely Daryl knew Rick could monologue his way out of that tight spot. But Dwight, who shot Daryl and enjoyed torturing him, gets a pass.

This was the most boring "All-Out War" in history.

ETA: Icemiser69 said:

Quote

Glenn shares some of the blame for knocking Maggie up. 

I'd say he shared fully half the blame. ;)

Edited April 17, 2018 by AngelaHunter

[Rosiejuliemom]

4 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I'd say he shared fully half the blame. ;)

He was the one who was pourin' the Bisquick!

(I still miss Abraham)

[CletusMusashi]

14 hours ago, Smad said:

You know for me there is a very easy solution to this whole thing without all this nefarious Maggie/Daryl/Jesus plotting to get rid of Rick or whatever. If I were Hilltop and Kingdom, I would refuse any trade with Alexandria. Rick wants to waste resources on Negan he can grow them himself. What little Alexandria had build up in the way of self grown food was probably bombed away. Good luck finding any live stock or seeds at this point. And anything they might find would take a long time to grow anyway. If Rick can't feed what little followers he has left...then what? They will leave to move to Hilltop/Kingdom or demand Rick hand Negan over to be killed if that's the condition for trade. Alexandria has nothing to offer either Hilltop or Kingdom, they hold all the cards. There doesn't need to be any evil plotting which frankly is just stupid (but that's the show at this point).

If I were Hilltop or Kingdom that's exactly what I would do.

 

Hmm.

What would happen if  Rick wanted something you had that you didn't actually want to give him? I'm not sure.

Ask Oceanside.

Edited April 17, 2018 by CletusMusashi

[numbnut]

I don't even know what show this is anymore, with Rick suddenly talking about the need to stand together because "death is coming for us" via an army of Whitewalkers, er, walkers, and Rick slicing Negan's throat and ordering a guy to fix it like he's Maeve on Westworld. WTF happened to the writing? It's like the writers went on vacation and the janitorial staff has been filling in.

[MVFrostsMyPie]

I think the janitorial staff would write better material!

[Smad]

7 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Hmm.

What would happen if  Rick wanted something you had that you didn't actually want to give him? I'm not sure.

Ask Oceanside.

 

I see Rick as a half-villain already. If he steps over any more lines he will be in full on villain territory. This reminds me so much of that youtube video on 'the philosophy of the walking dead'. They already speculated that the Ricks of the world are only a stone throw away from the Garrets and that the world might need to be saved from Rick. I'd say we are there already. And that was speculated a few Seasons back.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Smad

[tv echo]

Gimple responded to some questions about this episode ( don't think any of this is a spoiler, but just clarification of what happened)..

The Walking Dead EP Scott Gimple Breaks Down Rick's Big Decision, Maggie and Daryl's Plot, and More
By Charlie Mason / April 16 2018, 12:59 PM PDT
http://tvline.com/2018/04/16/the-walking-dead-season-9-spoilers-rick-maggie-war/

Quote

TVLINE | Of all the people that Rick had killed, why did Negan have to be the one to get a pass?
Well, Rick was probably also asking that question. I don’t think he intended to [let Negan live]. I don’t think he wanted to. He just determined in that moment that he had to after crossing the line that he did, invoking his son’s name as a ploy. After doing that, he felt he had to. He finally heard what his son was saying and agreed with him that there had to be this big gesture to truly put an end to it all.

TVLINE | Was there any discussion beforehand of actually letting Negan die?
Along the way, we kick around each iteration [of an arc]. But really, from the inception of the story, I knew I wanted to emulate the comic. When I read it, I really liked what it was saying, so I wanted to try and fulfill that and even make it bigger.

TVLINE | Rick would’ve given Maggie some warning, right, if he hadn’t made that snap decision in the moment?
Yeah, there was no warning Maggie, because there was no warning for Rick himself. He was in denial — like, “Maggie, I’m gonna kill him, I’m gonna kill him… ” He kind of pushed against any other possibility, not allowing it to even enter his mind that there would be mercy. He couldn’t open the door to it till he invoked Carl’s words to get the opportunity to cut Negan’s throat. It was only after he did that that he could hear what his son was saying to him and understand what his son wanted him to do. But I will say, when he called Siddiq over to help, would Rick have been heartbroken if he didn’t save him? I don’t know, but he knew he had to try.

TVLINE | Am I right in thinking that Rick/Michonne vs. Maggie/Daryl will be a driving force going into Season 9?
What Maggie has said to Daryl and Jesus was, “The Hilltop is going to flourish… I’m going to lead this place and make it work. But after that, I have this little thing on my to-do list, and it has to do with Negan.” That’s the main thing. It isn’t like, “I wanna get Rick!” or something like that, it’s about Negan.

TVLINE | Really? Because it seemed pretty threatening to Rick and Michonne to me.
Make no mistake, no one is getting in front of Maggie to stop her. That’s where there is danger and potential conflict.

TVLINE | Is it safe to assume that some kind of agreement has been reached for Lauren Cohan to continue on as Maggie?
We’re talking about that, and we will be telling peeps what’s up with all that soon. But obviously, we’re going to do something. Otherwise, that scene would be tricky business.

TVLINE | Tell me about Jesus’ reaction to Maggie’s plan to show Rick and Michonne how wrong they are to keep Negan alive. Jesus seemed cool with it. But he’s Mr. Live-and-Let-Live…
Well, he’s not Morgan. I don’t think he rushes to kill anyone at all. If someone is surrendering to him, he won’t do it. But he has Maggie’s back, and this is Negan we’re talking about. That’s sort of a different thing. Would [killing Negan] be Jesus’ first choice? I don’t know. But he does support Maggie. And [in his mind, the question would be,] is this about killing an innocent, or is this about what Maggie sees as justice or even neutralizing a danger? It’s complicated.

TVLINE | Let’s talk about Eugene for a moment. At what point did he decide he was going to sabotage the Saviors? It had seemed like he was all-in with them.
I think he had had a conflict about it that he didn’t like. He wanted to be all-in. It was logical for him to be all-in. But he couldn’t sleep. He was drinking. Then Rosita and Daryl took him, and there were things that were stirred up within him. Since the time he arrived with the Saviors, he’d been fighting against that humanity that he was infected with by Abraham and Rosita, these people who had taught him that there was more to being a human being than survival. And he lost that fight with himself. He didn’t want to be a human being, but he wound up one. 

TVLINE | Dwight has a huge role going forward in the comics. Where would you put the odds of him coming back — possibly with Sherry?
Odds… Hmm. I will say definitively, he’s not dead, so you never know. But I shan’t go deeper into it than that.

Edited April 17, 2018 by tv echo

[nachomama]

Are the only "Kingdom" people left, Jerry, The King, Henry and frikkin Carol?

[Smad]

17 minutes ago, nachomama said:

Are the only "Kingdom" people left, Jerry, The King, Henry and frikkin Carol?

Nope. In the MSP we saw some of them left to go to Carol's cabin (she told them to). But half the Kingdom died when the Saviors gunned them down back in early 8. Many children lost their parents. Though where all those children were in the MSP, I don't know.

[Dobian]

Among all his other leadership blunders, let's look at how Rick handled the final battle with Negan, which was essentially won by Eugene.  First, he trusted the information from Dwight.  He never considered that even if Dwight was beng honest, he might have been getting fed false information.  Rick never had a backup plan in the event Dwight's intel proved bogus. But even with that mistake, he arrives with his troops at a big open field with no cover and shaped like a bowl with raised ridges on both sides.  And proceeds to march his people into the middle of that bowl.  Anyone with even the most basic tactical battle knowledge, even from playing video games, knows that's what they call a *killing field*.  But not Rick.  Nope.  "Let's march in and win this for Coral everyone!"

[AngelaHunter]

12 hours ago, Gudzilla said:

I'm surprised that so many people are upset about Negan still being alive. I thought the last few episodes made it clear that Simon & his friends were responsible for all the horrible stuff the Saviors did. ;)

Oh, could that have been any more heavy-handed? "Look, see - Negan is really a nice guy. He was nice to Jadis and didn't torch her pics! He was all upset over the murders of the GPK! And half the population of Oceanside! He didn't do any of that. It was that big meany, Snidely Whiplash!  Negan felt bad about it. He's a good guy, deep down. What? Throwing the doc alive into the fire? Smashing heads, burning faces and coercing women to have sex with him? Nobody's perfect."

8 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Hmm.

What would happen if  Rick wanted something you had that you didn't actually want to give him? I'm not sure.

I think we got a pretty good preview of that awhle ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMydfh0dflY

[Mu Shu]

14 hours ago, Dirksy said:

Maybe they will put Negan in a public stockade where he can be pelted with rotten fruit and penile double entandres! I will watch that!

Stop dickin’ around!  You’re not the cock of the walk!

[nodorothyparker]

On 4/16/2018 at 11:07 AM, Smad said:

You know for me there is a very easy solution to this whole thing without all this nefarious Maggie/Daryl/Jesus plotting to get rid of Rick or whatever. If I were Hilltop and Kingdom, I would refuse any trade with Alexandria. Rick wants to waste resources on Negan he can grow them himself. What little Alexandria had build up in the way of self grown food was probably bombed away. Good luck finding any live stock or seeds at this point. And anything they might find would take a long time to grow anyway. If Rick can't feed what little followers he has left...then what? They will leave to move to Hilltop/Kingdom or demand Rick hand Negan over to be killed if that's the condition for trade. Alexandria has nothing to offer either Hilltop or Kingdom, they hold all the cards. There doesn't need to be any evil plotting which frankly is just stupid (but that's the show at this point).

If I were Hilltop or Kingdom that's exactly what I would do.

That would be the most logical thing, yes, if this show had ever demonstrated any interest in the politics or logistics of any of these communities.  But that would be assuming the show and at least some of the viewing audience has the patience for any storyline that isn't just about how much ammo they can randomly waste or Daryl making things go boom.  We saw how long their attempt at a prison council lasted.

Rick's arrogance in unilaterally making the decision to keep the common enemy alive and calling it good so they can all live side by side suggests that he thinks he's got more than a loose coalition of small independent communities united in the short term to defeat that common enemy, even though he had to repeatedly browbeat and bully those communities to get even that.  Like you, I'm wondering too how all of this is going to sit with these various communities after they've gone home and cleaned up the wreckage and it's had time to sink in that Rick probably now expects them to contribute something to the feeding and upkeep of the asshole who killed their people and caused so much of their misery in the first place.  Or that he thinks they should have no trouble being neighborly with many of the same people who used to roll up to their gates and delight in stealing from them while threatening them and being general assholes.  Especially when that's not what they were told they were fighting for.  

 

12 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

What would happen if  Rick wanted something you had that you didn't actually want to give him? I'm not sure.

Ask Oceanside.

Oceanside is a great example, as is Alexandria itself in how quickly Rick and company moved in and decided they would be saving Alexandria whether the residents liked it or wanted it or not.  I also still maintain that for all the stupidity and misery it led to, it's probably a good thing for Hilltop that they came up with the will go a murderin' for canned goods deal so quickly on that first visit as Rick's crew was giving off vibes that they probably didn't plan on going home emptyhanded after seeing how well the Hilltoppers were doing.

[ChipBach]

15 hours ago, oakville said:

I think it is ridiculous that Negan is still alive after the last episode. The writers should stop asking Rick to say " I will kill Negan".  The writers are trolling the fans. That is a bad way to treat people.

The last scenes with Maggie & Darryl & Jesus plotting against Rick & Michonne is dumbfounding.

Jesus was urging Maggie to keep the Savior prisoners alive during the season. Now he is  OK to kill Rick? LOL.

This makes no sense whatsoever.

I also find it ridiculous that Negan's followers would just give up so easily and start farming like the tattoo lady. These people are cult like followers of Negan up until 5 minutes after a battle?

Now they are happy gardening?

Well...  Especially since Rick (and his crew) was probably directly responsible for the death of members of family and friends of the surviving Neganites.  Five minutes after a battle, after your son, brother, husband, wife, or father was just shot dead because of a Eugene betrayal and slaughter from the Ricktones everyone was all kumbaya with the new authority (who is, regardless of the sentiment, still dictating their new way of life to them).

I guess it is a show about unfed, dehydrated beings having the ability to conjure energy from nothing for several years, so maybe I should chill on logical aspirations...

Edited April 17, 2018 by ChipBach

[Smad]

2 hours ago, Dobian said:

Among all his other leadership blunders, let's look at how Rick handled the final battle with Negan, which was essentially won by Eugene.  First, he trusted the information from Dwight.  He never considered that even if Dwight was beng honest, he might have been getting fed false information.  Rick never had a backup plan in the event Dwight's intel proved bogus. But even with that mistake, he arrives with his troops at a big open field with no cover and shaped like a bowl with raised ridges on both sides.  And proceeds to march his people into the middle of that bowl.  Anyone with even the most basic tactical battle knowledge, even from playing video games, knows that's what they call a *killing field*.  But not Rick.  Nope.  "Let's march in and win this for Coral everyone!"

It's no different than back in the S4 Finale. He sees all the items of his people and proceeds to freak out on the Termites. Without knowing their numbers or the layout of the complex. Lucky for him they were cannibals and only aiming at their feet, otherwise Rick, Michonne, Daryl and Carl would have been dead. But as was said before, this is the genius who in the pilot turned his back on an unsecured scene and got himself shot as a result. Why is anyone following this guys lead? I will never not ask myself that.

[AngelaHunter]

On 4/16/2018 at 10:37 AM, nodorothyparker said:

Maggie certainly has motivation the way Rick can so casually dismiss her grief and need for resolution because Carl wrote a letter. 

I have to wonder if Rick would have spared Negan or obeyed anyone's orders not to kill him, while speechifying about love and forgiveness if Negan had bashed Carl's brains out instead of Glenn's and Abe's? Would Michonne have knocked him out with a gun butt to keep him from hurting Negan? Gee, I don't think so. It's different when it's Rick. Everyone else should just get over their snit with Negan.  Carl's letters and last Words of Wisdom supercede the wishes of some hormonal, hysterical woman who watched the father of her child murdered in a horrific way. End of conversation. The Ricktator and his trusty sidekick have laid down the law.

And I guess that although Rosita was willing to kill Negan herself (yeah, tried and failed of course) she's fine with him being kept around as some sort of mascot, eating their food and ranting, or maybe just whispering now, about his dick and nutsack to anyone Rick orders to go feed and care for him. Keep him locked up for the rest of his life? Not likely. Eventually he'll be let out, maybe to grow some veggies and they can all sit around on his front porch eating tomato sammies and reminisce about the good ol' days.

[seacliffsal]

I don't understand why Jesus is being promoted and accepted as a peace-maker.  He's the one who convinced Rick to kill saviors in the first place.  'You kill them for us and we'll give you food.'  Pretty straightforward.  Jesus may have thought that Rick's group would go after the saviors and the remaining saviors would go after Rick's group and they would wipe each other out leaving the Hilltop alone.  Nevertheless, he insisted that the saviors had to be killed...by Rick's group.  Then he wants to save some saviors, then he tells Morgan to not kill people...  It's like he's playing both sides against each other.  Even in the 'evil' plot being developed by Maggie, he presents himself as all in, while at other times he's all 'oh no, not violence...'

Although I thought this episode was the best in a long, long time, I'm not sure that I'll be back with the next season.  This episode is a pretty good ending point in that Rick remembers how life used to be and the scene of Sheriff (deputy) Rick and li'l Carl just seems like an appropriate image to go out on.

[SharonH58]

I watched the last 2 episodes back to back so forgive any overlapping.  So - are they trying to show Negan wasn't so bad because Simon killed all those people?  Oceanside and Garbage?  And they had Negan say he killed Abe because he didn't want to kill a father in front of his son?  BS.   And why isn't that stupid bat burned??   It is fireproof like Negan is bulletproof?   

I agree with above people, why banish Dwight (and maybe it was only Daryl's idea) when Negan gets to live?  Dwight helped you!  Oh that's right.  Rick kills people now that help him and when he says he won't.  But not Negan!  His BFF.  

Why is Aaron so helpless?  I laughed every time he fell over.   Now he can't find food or water on his own?  Those woman should have left him out there.

I am sick of everyone on this show.  Only good part was Dead long hair talking to Morgan.  I got a good laugh from that too.  

I still hate Eugene. 

[peach]

On 4/16/2018 at 10:38 AM, riverheightsnancy said:

Does Carl's death mean nothing to Maggie and Daryl? They have known him since he was a young boy (although it has probably been only a year or two). Did Rick not share the letter with them? How can Daryl take care of Judith and "protect" her and then not be impacted by what Carl wrote in his letter? Daryl let's Dwight go, doesn't he understand Rick's position?

 

On 4/16/2018 at 10:55 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure why the idealistic musings of a (dead) teenager should be a major influence in shaping public policy.   Would they have done whatever Coral said before he died?  Or would they say, "Thanks for your input, Sport, but now it's time for the grownups to talk."?

 

On 4/16/2018 at 11:22 AM, Smad said:

What does it matter what Carl wants?

I don't think it's so much about what Carl wants, because Carl was wrong.  But where this show constantly fails is in character consistency and ignoring its own history and context.  Carl JUST died, like a day ago.  You'd think Maggie and Daryl would at least think, ya know, maybe Rick isn't thinking straight right this minute.   I mean, he's not talking to ghosts on the phone, sure, but he's obviously working some shit out.  Maybe don't freak the fuck out and just either convince him later or take care of it when he's not looking.  That's what friends and "brothers" do, they don't immediately plot against you.

[AntiBeeSpray]

21 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I cheered. I actually cheered out loud when Rick slashed Negan's throat. I really thought they did it, and I cheered. Only to have the rug pulled out from under me. 

I should have known better, I suppose, but in hindsight the throat slashing almost seems like they were punking us. They have to know at some level there are a lot of fans that want him dead. Why bother slashing his throat and letting us think they would actually kill him if they had no intention of killing him, other than to fuck with us? That's almost worse. I had the momentary satisfaction of thinking he would die only to have it taken away from me.

I understand the show is in love with Jeffrey Dean Morgan. I just don't understand how they can so willfully ignore the fans and what's happening with the ratings. That's a level of denial I simply cannot fathom. They must be too close to it. They must rely on their Twitter sycophants who think they actually have a personal relationship with the writers and producers and directors. And they must stick their heads in the sand any time reality creeps in by way of criticism or ratings. 

Well, I guess the "all out war" is finally over so that's . . . something. It's not much, but it's something. And I called it last week when I guessed Eugene would have a change of heart and sabotage the bullets because I couldn't figure out any purpose to the botched kidnapping attempt. So, that's something too, I guess. Still, I'm just as sick of Eugene and his idiotic weird way of talking as I am of Negan and his smug bloviating.

It was a walker herd. Rick said they had never seen one that size before. In his final Braveheart speech to the surviving Saviors he pointed to them and said that was the real enemy or something equally silly. It was hard to make out, even in high def, because it looked very digitized.

Word. I cheered when that happened, but when they let that SOB live, I was pissed. He's not going to change. He's a piece of work.

That said, I'm no fan of Daryl, Maggie and Jesus going after them and being the new baddies (possibly). I can understand why, but it makes me possibly not bother watching. Rick and them are getting on my nerves a bit too. As for Carl, I can understand what he wanted to do, but the thing is, he didn't know that it's the world and that things don't always work out the way that you want them to, that people have their own motivations, no matter what.

[Smad]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Rick's arrogance in unilaterally making the decision to keep the common enemy alive and calling it good so they can all live side by side suggests that he thinks he's got more than a loose coalition of small independent communities united in the short term to defeat that common enemy, even though he had to repeatedly browbeat and bully those communities to get even that.  Like you, I'm wondering too how all of this is going to sit with these various communities after they've gone home and cleaned up the wreckage and it's had time to sink in that Rick probably now expects them to contribute something to the feeding and upkeep of the asshole who killed their people and caused so much their misery in the first place.  Or that he thinks they should have no trouble being neighborly with many of the same people who used to roll up to their gates and delight in stealing from them while threatening them and being general assholes.  Especially when that's not what they were told they were fighting for.

Last I checked the S7 Finale/S8 Premiere made it clear that it was an alliance between 3 equal leaders (communities). So why does Rick think he's the sole voice on Negan's fate? It should be a joint decision between all 3 leaders (communities). Rick basically appointed himself dictator over 3 communities now, 4 if you count the Saviors. Hell 5 if you count Oceanside who already got that message when they met Rick. So these communities went from one oppressive regime (Negan) to the next. How exactly is that an improvement? No wonder there will be plots to eliminate the next Negan, as there rightfully should be IMO.

26 minutes ago, peach said:

I don't think it's so much about what Carl wants, because Carl was wrong.  But where this show constantly fails is in character consistency and ignoring its own history and context.  Carl JUST died, like a day ago.  You'd think Maggie and Daryl would at least think, ya know, maybe Rick isn't thinking straight right this minute.   I mean, he's not talking to ghosts on the phone, sure, but he's obviously working some shit out.  Maybe don't freak the fuck out and just either convince him later or take care of it when he's not looking.  That's what friends and "brothers" do, they don't immediately plot against you.

All the more reason that this decision was not Rick's to make. Grief makes one emotional/irrational. The decision then should have been left to more clear-headed people instead of a grief stricken father. Rick appointing himself the judge on Negan's fate has made it clear where his alliances lie IMO. With himself and his dead child. And it needs to be repeated that Carl didn't die because of Negan, unlike other children who did (the 16 year old Hilltopper, Ben from the Kingdom). And many children lost their parents in the war, namely the ones from the Kingdom. They have way more right to decide Negan's fate than Rick, period.

[rab01]

25 minutes ago, AntiBeeSpray said:

Word. I cheered when that happened, but when they let that SOB live, I was pissed. He's not going to change. He's a piece of work.

That said, I'm no fan of Daryl, Maggie and Jesus going after them and being the new baddies (possibly). I can understand why, but it makes me possibly not bother watching. Rick and them are getting on my nerves a bit too. As for Carl, I can understand what he wanted to do, but the thing is, he didn't know that it's the world and that things don't always work out the way that you want them to, that people have their own motivations, no matter what.

The last couple of years, Gimple has really "excelled" at creating situations where we are annoyed by every choice made by our once-favorite characters even when they are on opposite sides of an argument.  He's done such a job of character assassination that there is nothing left of the show other than the make-up effects.  

[peach]

1 minute ago, Smad said:

All the more reason that this decision was not Rick's to make. Grief makes one emotional/irrational. The decision then should have been left to more clear-headed people instead of a grief stricken father. Rick appointing himself the judge on Negan's fate has made it clear where his alliances lie IMO. With himself and his dead child. And it needs to be repeated that Carl didn't die because of Negan, unlike other children who did (the 16 year old Hilltopper, Ben from the Kingdom). And many children lost their parents in the war, namely the ones from the Kingdom. They have way more right to decide Negan's fate than Rick, period.

Right.  That's what I'm saying, he's being irrational, and he's not The Boss anyway.  But you'd think the people closest to him would acknowledge he's a mess.  And Maggie has her own competing issues.  But it's ridiculous to think that DARYL wouldn't understand that Rick is a mess, and want to resolve it by somehow killing Negan without making Rick the enemy.  Rick is wrong, and it needs to be handled. 

But the fact that Rick is wrong is the show's fault.  There's nothing natural or realistic about anyone's choices.  The show is stupid for making Carl be stupid, so that Rick will be stupid, and then making the rest stupidly turn against each other based on the previous stupidity.   That's why I quit watching, because they are making me hate characters I loved.

[AntiBeeSpray]

2 minutes ago, rab01 said:

The last couple of years, Gimple has really "excelled" at creating situations where we are annoyed by every choice made by our once-favorite characters even when they are on opposite sides of an argument.  He's done such a job of character assassination that there is nothing left of the show other than the make-up effects.  

Yea but at least then it was a bit tolerable. They finally crossed the line for me last night.

[Colorado David]

On 4/15/2018 at 8:59 PM, TigerLynx said:

 

This, and don't waste bullets shooting the fucking windows in the process.  If I could figure out a way to climb inside my TV, my cat and I would kill Negan.

OH SO THIS. Bless you tigerlynx. and your cat too.

 

I for one feel Gimple gets off on annoying the viewers - I don't know why he does, but every turn of the show seems to indicate that. 

Edited April 17, 2018 by Colorado David

[rab01]

Just now, AntiBeeSpray said:

Yea but at least then it was a bit tolerable. They finally crossed the line for me last night.

Totally agree, I hit that point a few episodes ago; the last one I've watched was Daryl, Tara and Dwight in the swamp.

This new "twist" is the equivalent of latter seasons of a sitcom, dramedy or the like where the characters start sleeping with each other in different combinations because the writers can't think of anything else to do. 

Spoiler

I would hold out hope that this stupid plot idea was going to be dropped by the new show runner but Andy Lincoln's interview convinces me that they are already running with it on set as we speak.  Fucking morons.

[AntiBeeSpray]

1 minute ago, rab01 said:

Totally agree, I hit that point a few episodes ago; the last one I've watched was Daryl, Tara and Dwight in the swamp.

This new "twist" is the equivalent of latter seasons of a sitcom, dramedy or the like where the characters start sleeping with each other in different combinations because the writers can't think of anything else to do. 

  Hide contents

I would hold out hope that this stupid plot idea was going to be dropped by the new show runner but Andy Lincoln's interview convinces me that they are already running with it on set as we speak.  Fucking morons.

Agreed. They're now at the old soap standard of stabbing one another in the back. Eep.

 

Spoiler

That sucks. Maybe some walkers will intervene and bring back some excitement.

[peach]

17 minutes ago, rab01 said:

The last couple of years, Gimple has really "excelled" at creating situations where we are annoyed by every choice made by our once-favorite characters even when they are on opposite sides of an argument.  He's done such a job of character assassination that there is nothing left of the show other than the make-up effects.  

You said it better than me while I was typing.

[Smad]

14 minutes ago, peach said:

But it's ridiculous to think that DARYL wouldn't understand that Rick is a mess, and want to resolve it by somehow killing Negan without making Rick the enemy.  Rick is wrong, and it needs to be handled.

Who knows why Daryl does what he does these days? I sure don't. The character stopped making sense in S6 when they were stationary (due to being in Alexandria) and he was itching for something to do (so he did a lot of stoopid) and they permanently removed Carol from his life.

18 minutes ago, peach said:

Right.  That's what I'm saying, he's being irrational, and he's not The Boss anyway.  But you'd think the people closest to him would acknowledge he's a mess.

The characters are forced to see him as boss no matter how messed up he is. As I said in the 'what went wrong thread' it's one of the issues I have with the show. No matter what he says or does people have to follow even if any person with a working brain would say 'NO.' Simply because it's Rick. That there finally seem to be people who are 'nope, not this time buddy' is actually refreshing for me. FINALLY.

[peach]

1 hour ago, AntiBeeSpray said:

 As for Carl, I can understand what he wanted to do, but the thing is, he didn't know that it's the world and that things don't always work out the way that you want them to, that people have their own motivations, no matter what.

The thing is, for me, is that Carl absolutely did know that, more than the rest of them.  But they just reversed his character traits, killed him, and now here we are.

[peach]

5 minutes ago, Smad said:

The characters are forced to see him as boss no matter how messed up he is. As I said in the 'what went wrong thread' it's one of the issues I have with the show. No matter what he says or does people have to follow even if any person with a working brain would say 'NO.' Simply because it's Rick. That there finally seem to be people who are 'nope, not this time buddy' is actually refreshing for me. FINALLY.

Except like everything else, they don't build to this in any believable fashion.  Their conflicts are presented as rising out of thin air.  A lot of fans feel like it's stupid that they always follow Rick, but the characters aren't shown having that conflict.  Maggie and Rick were not at odds about anything, until the end.  He and Daryl did have a fight about changing the plan, but then DARYL fucked it all up, not Rick.  But they both shrugged it off.  Maggie's not mad at Daryl, though, for jumping up and causing Negan to kill Glenn, nor for Daryl crashing a truck in the Sanctuary causing Negan to escape.  Now they're both plotting against Rick?  It's just stupid.  They have enough groups that a conflict arising over leadership would be a good story, but this is not a good story.

Then we have Jesus.  I mean, now that the show is basically in soap opera mode, I'm inclined to believe Jesus has an evil twin.  One of them runs around saving people, and the other one wants to kill them. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Maggie's freak-out when Rick decided to save Negan was hilarious!! 

Oh I don't know. That was pretty much my reaction too when Rick refused to kill him. Screaming bloody blue murder.

Quote

TVLINE | Was there any discussion beforehand of actually letting Negan die?
Along the way, we kick around each iteration [of an arc]. But really, from the inception of the story, I knew I wanted to emulate the comic. When I read it, I really liked what it was saying, so I wanted to try and fulfill that and even make it bigger.

I know this will come as no shock but Gimple is full of shit. Negan didn't live because of the comics. If that were true Carl would still be alive. Negan lived because the show thinks Jeffrey Dean Morgan is too good to let go. They can't see how sick of his character the audience is, and they buy into their own hype that the audience just loves him because JDM is so charismatic or some such nonsense. I said this last week, but it would not surprise me if they tried to restructure the show around Negan as the lead character if Rick ever left. 

[Smad]

17 minutes ago, peach said:

Except like everything else, they don't build to this in any believable fashion.  Their conflicts are presented as rising out of thin air.

Of course not. Because god forbid they actually do a 'character drama' instead of a b-action movie with generic characters mixed with a soap opera.

Quote

A lot of fans feel like it's stupid that they always follow Rick, but the characters aren't shown having that conflict.  Maggie and Rick were not at odds about anything, until the end.  He and Daryl did have a fight about changing the plan, but then DARYL fucked it all up, not Rick.  But they both shrugged it off.  Maggie's not mad at Daryl, though, for jumping up and causing Negan to kill Glenn, nor for Daryl crashing a truck in the Sanctuary causing Negan to escape.  Now they're both plotting against Rick?  It's just stupid.  They have enough groups that a conflict arising over leadership would be a good story, but this is not a good story.

They fucked it up long before then, all the way back in S6. Going on the offensive without intel is the stupidest thing they could have possibly done. Also Daryl didn't mess up first, that was Rick and everyone who was there to shoot out the windows. Negan was standing on the platform yammering and no one took a shoot at him. Everything after that is just more of the same stupidity. But yeah Maggie not being mad at Daryl has no in-show reasons. But we can't have anyone being mad at their cash cow so of course Maggie forgives him.

[Mu Shu]

46 minutes ago, Smad said:

Who knows why Daryl does what he does these days? I sure don't. The character stopped making sense in S6 when they were stationary (due to being in Alexandria) and he was itching for something to do (so he did a lot of stoopid) and they permanently removed Carol from his life.

The characters are forced to see him as boss no matter how messed up he is. As I said in the 'what went wrong thread' it's one of the issues I have with the show. No matter what he says or does people have to follow even if any person with a working brain would say 'NO.' Simply because it's Rick. That there finally seem to be people who are 'nope, not this time buddy' is actually refreshing for me. FINALLY.

But those communities weren’t doing well prior to Rick.  All the Oceanside men were slaughtered.  All the hilltop and kingdom people were forced to give tribute to the saviors, their members were periodically killed to keep them cowed, and women were forced into Negans harem if he fancied them.

ill take Rick anyday over that.  If keeping Negan alive is what the guy who pushed these people to finally get off their asses and fight, well it’s better than what they were getting.  Now they can go forth and make prosciutto.  

[Smad]

13 minutes ago, Mu Shu said:

But those communities weren’t doing well prior to Rick.  All the Oceanside men were slaughtered.  All the hilltop and kingdom people were forced to give tribute to the saviors, their members were periodically killed to keep them cowed, and women were forced into Negans harem if he fancied them.

ill take Rick anyday over that.  If keeping Negan alive is what the guy who pushed these people to finally get off their asses and fight, well it’s better than what they were getting.  Now they can go forth and make prosciutto.  

But Rick didn't do it for them in order to help them. Rick recruited the other communities for the same reason these communities didn't rise up against Negan. Manpower and firepower. Rick went into the Hilltop deal not knowing a damn thing about Negan and his operation. He put his group (Alexandria) in Negan's focus because of the murders at the outpost. And he originally made the deal with Hilltop for selfish purposes as well, to get food. Not really his fault the Alexandrians were too stupid to grow their own food for years before CDB got there. But still selfish reasons. He went to the Kingdom because he realized he had too little in terms of manpower and firepower. As far as I remember (I haven't watched all of S7) while the Kingdom was under Negan's thumb we never heard about anyone dying at the hands of Negan's group. The people weren't even aware of the Savior deal and the tributes didn't seem to be that high that it made anyone suspicious or go without food. He went to Oceanside for the same reason and went Negan on them (without the head bashing). Same with the GPK.

And I don't see how Rick is better when he makes executive decisions for ALL communities. What to do with the Saviors and specifically Negan should be a decision all relevant communities should get a say in. If they don't, what makes Rick better than Negan in the long run? You went from one tyrannical dictator to the next. You are just as powerless with no say in anything. When he murders people who help him and who want to change sides, he's no better than a villain. And it's only 1 step away from killing his own if they step out of line.

[AntiBeeSpray]

1 hour ago, peach said:

The thing is, for me, is that Carl absolutely did know that, more than the rest of them.  But they just reversed his character traits, killed him, and now here we are.

Good point. They ended up turning him into nothing more than a plot device.

[Mu Shu]

Watching JDM fight is like watching a fight at a G.G. Allin concert.  His stance and reach is so awkward and puny.  I don’t believe this rickety old so and so could even take Eugene.

BTW, I miss half of what goes on.  Did Eugene shoot Borat? 

[AngelaHunter]

3 hours ago, Colorado David said:

I for one feel Gimple gets off on annoying the viewers - I don't know why he does, but every turn of the show seems to indicate that. 

I don't think he's that clever or resourceful. If you read the interview with him in this thread, it just seems he doesn't know WTF he's doing, has no rationale for it and he's not really very articulate.

[Rosiejuliemom]

3 hours ago, Smad said:

But yeah Maggie not being mad at Daryl has no in-show reasons. But we can't have anyone being mad at their cash cow so of course Maggie forgives him.

I still want Maggie to punch him for that. Or, have someone remind him that Glenn's death is partly his fault.

 

3 hours ago, Mu Shu said:

 Now they can go forth and make prosciutto.

Too bad the only one who could make it in Alexandria is currently busy helping Mrs. Neidermeyer with her pasta.

[peach]

6 hours ago, AntiBeeSpray said:

Good point. They ended up turning him into nothing more than a plot device.

There are three stages to the walker virus.  First who the character is has to die, then the actual person dies, then they turn.

[AngelaHunter]

13 hours ago, Mu Shu said:

Stop dickin’ around!  You’re not the cock of the walk!

"You don't dick-tate to us anymore! DICK-tate! Get it? Huh, do ya?"

"Cheer up, Negan. Soon you'll be a-DICK-ted to our jokes! Heh heh."

[Anela]

10 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Both Maggie and Glenn knew what the world had come to, and they didn't have any foresight to protect themselves.  That is on them.  Yes, Negan is responsible for a lot of deaths, including Glenn and Abraham.    Still, if Maggie doesn't get pregnant, there would have been no need to rush to get to the Hilltop.

 

9 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I don't have a problem with Nagen still being alive.  If he was going to die, TPTB should have scripted a much better fight scene.  That was pathetic.

I don't think we have seen the end of Dwight.  I hope not.  He is the one character that I had some interest in, and now he is gone, at least for now.

Did we ever find out how they knew they would be rushing to the other community? 

I've always found that the build-up to the ending, is always better than the actual ending. At least in things like Stephen King stories/horror or scifi stories, or just showdowns. The ultimate showdown ends up being a, "That's it?" ending. 

[Persnickety1]

9 hours ago, Anela said:

 

Did we ever find out how they knew they would be rushing to the other community? 

I've always found that the build-up to the ending, is always better than the actual ending. At least in things like Stephen King stories/horror or scifi stories, or just showdowns. The ultimate showdown ends up being a, "That's it?" ending. 

I've yet to figure that out.  All of that manpower, all of those resources, all of that effort to...what, hold in place indefinitely until some day the crew *might* roll by?

I remember a theory going on back then that Enid was somehow a mole and had put something in the pickles she gave to Maggie knowing it would make her sick and require a trip to Hilltop.  It made sense, as far as this show goes anyway, but turned out not to be true.

It's one of the many things the writers chose to never clarify.

And speaking of not being clarified, did anyone catch TTD and Gimple and Kirkman dancing their way around the time line gap between TWD and FTWD?  They pretty much laughed and indicated they would engage in deliberate vagueness to explain it away on the show.  No surprise there, unfortunately.

[ByTor]

Ricky G's mercy prevails over his wrath?  Tell that to the men you butchered who were stupid enough to save your useless ass.

I was SO angry when Rick slashed Negan's throat, Negan deserved a much more gruesome death than that.  Hint, when Father Pee charged at Negan I shouted for him to stick Lucille up Negan's ass.  So, needless to say, I was LIVID that Negan was saved.  And then even MORE livid that Rick was too incompetent to even properly slash Negan's throat, being that he can still talk.

I really thought Daryl was going to kill Dwight, following in Rick's "let's murder someone who saved us" footsteps, so I was relieved when he didn't.  I spent a long time wishing for Dwight's death, but I liked his redemption story, and when he told Daryl he was ready to die, talked about what a horrible person he is, and seemed genuinely remorseful...well, I think at that point someone broke into my house and started chopping onions.  I hated that Daryl sent him away, but at least he spared him.  Now go find Sherry!  I swear if he did find her, I would have been blubbering like an idiot.

I'm glad Eugene did the double cross.  Regardless of how he behaved, I couldn't help but like him.  As someone mentioned, when Eugene was taken, nobody made the effort to save him like they did Daryl, and while at the Sanctuary Eugene was given pickles, wine, and even a little bit of respect, so I sympathized with him and saw where he was coming from. 

I didn't think the scene at the end was about Maggie, Jesus, and Daryl being the big bads vs Rick and Michonne (not really sure why Michonne's name was dragged into that, unless it's because she never goes against Rick anymore), I thought the thing they still had to do was somehow murder Negan...but then I guess a part of that would be usurping Rick's authority as a leader.  I guess I'll find out.  I may get mad at the show, but I'm in until the end.

Edited April 18, 2018 by ByTor
Punctuation

[Bryce Lynch]

On 4/17/2018 at 12:52 PM, peach said:

 

 

I don't think it's so much about what Carl wants, because Carl was wrong.  But where this show constantly fails is in character consistency and ignoring its own history and context.  Carl JUST died, like a day ago.  You'd think Maggie and Daryl would at least think, ya know, maybe Rick isn't thinking straight right this minute.   I mean, he's not talking to ghosts on the phone, sure, but he's obviously working some shit out.  Maybe don't freak the fuck out and just either convince him later or take care of it when he's not looking.  That's what friends and "brothers" do, they don't immediately plot against you.

I agree with this.  It didn't seem like there was much arguing or attempts to convince, browbeat, threaten, etc. Rick into allowing Neagan to be executed.  Jumping straight to "Let's overthrow (and kill?) Rick!" makes no sense at all for these characters we've known for so long.  

Even if Coral hadn't just been killed and Rick was just being an idiot for no particular reason, it wouldn't make sense for Maggie and Darryl to jump to wanting to violently oust Rick, without first expending many other measures to get what they wanted.