S05.E13: Principia

[Cranberry]

The team goes in search of Gravitonium in order to save the world.

[JudgeyMcJudgyPants]

“Hey MacHammer. You can’t touch this.”

[AimingforYoko]

You know young Alphonso spent all his spare money on clothes.

I was wondering if Ruby was running game on Alex, but it looks like she really is going her own way.

And Deke figures it out. Things are going to be more awkward than usual with him.

[Lady Calypso]

So, I did miss the first ten minutes or so, but the rest of the episode was quite good. The Mack/Mack-Hammer stuff was pure gold, and why did I not see the "You Can't Touch This [Gravitonium]" joke coming? It was awesome to see someone from Mack's past. We haven't touched on his background much, so it was nice to see Caine see a difference between that Mack and this one.

So, of course they hammer (heh) in Deke FitzSimmons into the episode right after the reveal. That was shoddy writing in itself. And I'm still not loving Deke. HOWEVER, I gotta say the moment Deke pieced it together with Jemma repeating the phrase his grandmother used to say was wonderfully done. There was a complete change in the actor, with the body language and complete wonderment, awe, and almost pure love when Deke looked at Jemma and Fitz. I was surprisingly very touched by that moment. Good on Jeff Ward for that moment. Though, I gotta admit I was staring at his mother/Jemma and Fitz's daughter, and I didn't think that the actress they cast looked like either of them. I'm not sure whether it's because of my inability to see that kind of stuff, or if it could have been better casting. Also...no accent? Is it because both Jemma and Fitz died when their daughter was very young?

The Ruby&Werner/Alex stuff was ok, at best. It was nice to see the return of the Von Strucker son. And I thought it was interesting for Ruby to open up to him like that. I know she did tell him the truth about the plan, but why he went along with it is beyond me. Which, I guess, did work out in Ruby's favour if she's tricking him and doing what her mother asked. 

Great to see that Elena is finally getting her own set of arms. I don't see why Fitz can't whip her up some mechanical arms like he did Coulson (I think Fitz did that??) but hopefully she can do some pretty cool shit like Coulson can when they remember his mechanic arm. 

[Lantern7]

Mack is just the best, right? Helps gets the Plotdevicism, battles a bunch of robots, and brings one back so his girlfriend can get new arms. And he almost got killed in the process. Also, he didn't kill his old schoolmate about the revelation of "Mack Hammer," and he didn't punch Coulson on the ship. I think Phil wouldn't have quipped in such a tense situation . . . but fuck it, he's gonna die soon anyway, right?

What do we call the antagonists? Do they have a name? I think they might not, so we need one for them. "SWORD" is the obvious choice, but that's basically "SHIELD in space" in the comics. I don't remember the kid at all. He was a Von Strucker? Huh . . . maybe the producers figured The Gifted might make that name a bigger thing. Also: no vaguely incestuous overtones!

Looks like the rift doesn't always make manifest nightmare, since Deke's mom stopped by and basically left a family tree behind. I'm hoping he does more soon. I mean, Fitz is really irritated, but in a situation like that, I'd be tempted to direct Deke to the food storage and let him chow down on stuff we've gotten away from. Twinkies really last forever, don't they?

[SnoGirl]

Oh Shield. Of course you would have Deke try to play catch with Fitz. And in a dick move, Fitz was going to play “fetch.” LOL. I guess since he hadnt slept all night, I’d let it slide.

I wish the phrase Jemma had said was something we had heard her say before, or something she had said to Fitz before. I still liked that we heard her say it, and that Deke literally looked like his jaw was on the ground. And then later he commented on Fitz’s sweater and called him “Grandpa.” LOL. I wonder if FitzSimmons is going to figure it out and not say anything to Deke like he’s not saying anything to him.

Loved Jemma bringing up hyphnating their names and Fitz saying “Simmons-Fitz has a nice ring to it.” LOL. Their whole conversation as a married couple was perfect.

I love Mack Hammer. I will never write his name as anything else. I’ll be honest, I didnt see the “Hammertime” reference coming, but I did laugh outloud, scaring my dog when it did.

I wonder if Elena is going to try and stop May and Daisy from saving Coulson. I wish she would stop saying that everything she was told was happening and actually told Jemma or Mack Hammer what those things are. Time travel is wonky, she needs more allies.

I do wonder, if sending Deke back to space with all the knowledge he knows, breaks the time loop. If Deke acted differently, helps Shield after being on Earth with them therefore saves the Earth. But then there’s the whole problem double Deke in space. I hate time travel.

Where is Hunter and Robin during all of this? Can someone clarify that for me??

Edited March 17, 2018 by SnoGirl

[thuganomics85]

At this rate, Deke better hope Fitz doesn't find out he's actually their grandson, or Fitz might get a vasectomy in order to prevent that.  On a more serious note, Deke's reaction when he found out the truth was well done.  Curious to see what he will do with that information.

Fun getting to meet Mack's former buddy (Jake Busey!), and learning more about him back in the academy.  The MC Hammer jokes were easy, but I still laughed anyway.  But I liked that the show remembered Mack normally hates violence, so Caine was actually pretty shocked over watching Mack dispose of those robots with ease.  And Mack even brought some robotic arms home for Yo-Yo!  Aww!

The agent with the scar (Davis?) earns points with his "I can hear you, and yes, I totally agree with you" remark when Coulson said he wanted May to stay behind, because he trusted her more to fly away if shit went sideways.  He knows what's up!

Glad Yo-Yo finally got a moment to really react to what happened to her.  At leas Simmons was around to comfort her.

Took me a while to place Alex von Strucker.  They certainly are bringing back a whole bunch of characters from the past.  It now looks like he's joining Hale's little gang with Creel and Ruby, but Ruby seems to have her own plan.  Uh oh!  

[Raja]

2 hours ago, SnoGirl said:

 

I do wonder, if sending Deke back to space with all the knowledge he knows, breaks the time loop. If Deke acted differently, helps Shield after being on Earth with them therefore saves the Earth. But then there’s the whole problem double Deke in space. I hate time travel.

Where is Hunter and Robin during all of this? Can someone clarify that for me??

 

There are two basic strategies to protect something. Put up barriers and out power all adversaries or hide. Assuming that with just two of them they were not able to cover the Lighthouse entrances so that they took Robin to another safe house.

 

Anybody else notice the throw away line by Daisy about the only gravitomium in this timeline. Daisy at least is going with the split timeline theory of time travel.

Another random note in every scene in the Lighthouse we had random S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents walking in the aisles. A lot more than one quinjet load given the size of the place.  While not what Director Fury had or Coulson when working for the US government S.H.I.E.L.D. is a thing again.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Raja

[Jediknight]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

It was awesome to see someone from Mack's past. We haven't touched on his background much, so it was nice to see Caine see a difference between that Mack and this one.

Somebody should have said to him, that while Mack can do the violent stuff, he still hates it.  That's been a constant in his characterization, he'd rather be doing mechanical or engineering work, and not fighting, but he fights because he can and to protect others.

Like that Deke knows, and his reaction was great.  His moment with his "mom" was nice as well.  Given that we know that his mom meant the world to him, Fitz and Simmons are going to mean a crapload more to him now.  He knows they were loving parents, by the way his mom talked.  Give him his game of catch, Fitz.  It will be SHIELD's own version of "Hey, dad!  You wanna have a catch?", and there will be no dry eyes in the house.

[kris4n6]

58 minutes ago, Raja said:

 

Another random note in every scene in the Lighthouse we had random S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents walking in the aisles. A lot more than one quinjet load given the size of the place.  While not what Director Fury had or Coulson when working for the US government S.H.I.E.L.D. is a thing again.

That threw me at first - I didn't realize the extra agents were still there and when one walked by in the scene with Deke and Fitz I had to rewind to see what the hell walked by.

 

Overall a good episode, though I had no idea who the hell Von Strucker was until probably the middle of the episode.  

[UNOSEZ]

Deke was more likeable this episode.. Still this part or ruby or hale or Caine or any combination of them coulda been played by actors of color... Ruby is still off putting and as a guy I do wish I'd get to see on my TV screen a plot where a female character gets all sultry and flirty  to get the guy to do something.. And he shuts her down.. Because we do shut the ladies down from time to time... I know were weak but come on... Agree with most upthread.. When deke figured it out his whole demeanor changed that was a real nice scene.. Also liked when they were talking about the floating ship how fits and  deke took the same pose ( I thought maybe they woulda had jemma notice it)  but maybe later on... All in all good episode

[Dr John Smith]

In the scene where the team finds the Gravitonium, I thought it was a nice touch how Fitz and Deke both stepped back and put their hands on their hips in exactly the same way. It was so natural I didn't notice it on my first watch.

[tv echo]

I wonder why Deke's mother never told him the names of her parents or that they were SHIELD agents. Did she not know? Or did she die before she could tell him. Or did she know what was going to happen to Deke in the future (because her parents told her) and intentionally didn't tell him for some reason.

Edited March 17, 2018 by tv echo

[Raja]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

I wonder why Deke's mother never told him the names of her parents or that they were SHIELD agents. Did she not know? Or did she die before she could tell him. Or did she know what was going to happen to Deke in the future (because her parents told her) and intentionally didn't tell him for some reason.

 

I guess by that time the Kree were there and what you don't know you can't tell. Especially a kid who wouldn't know about resistance cells or be able to keep security., By the time Deke was old enough  to shield information from the Kree or human information brokers, like he grew up to be  mom was snatched away  before there was time for her to decide to tell with no need for him to know,

Edited March 17, 2018 by Raja

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

I wonder why Deke's mother never told him the names of her parents or that they were SHIELD agents. Did she not know? Or did she die before she could tell him. Or did she know what was going to happen to Deke in the future (because her parents told her) and intentionally didn't tell him for some reason.

 

14 minutes ago, Raja said:

I guess by that time the Kree were there and what you don't know you can't tell. Especially a kid who wouldn't know about resistance cells or be able to keep security., By the time Deke was old enough  to shield information from the Kree or human information brokers, like he grew up to be  mom was snatched away  before there was time for her to decide to tell with no need for him to know,

Agreed with the above. But also, the fact that it was at least rumoured on who caused the world to end, which included Jemma and Fitz. I figure his mom thought it was best to not tell Deke until he was of a proper age to have that knowledge (telling a young child could have caused harm on him by the Kree if they found out, perhaps). But by the time he was old enough to be able to handle that knowledge, she was already taken. 

[Lobsel Vith]

3 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Deke was more likeable this episode.. Still this part or ruby or hale or Caine or any combination of them coulda been played by actors of color...

The only long-term man of color this show has ever had (without killing them off) is Mack - Trip and Andrew were killed off after getting bits of storyline, Joey and Robbie didn't get much before their vanishing acts (Radcliffe and Deke, for example, were given considerably more), so it would've been nice if this season had been different and veered in another direction with a long-term character. If you didn't have the character sell someone into slavery (because the show has never properly handled that, and at this point Deke is basically just a walking easter egg for FitzSimmons with no real purpose except to be woobified because he's the grandson of Fitz and Simmons), it would've been nice. As it stands, it's one of the problems with AoS, and if this is the last season, it'll be one of the flaws with the show as a whole.

[Lady Calypso]

I do have to take back my statement in my original post about Elena's prosthetic arms. I finally got to watch the first ten minutes and realized that Fitz was working on her arms. 

Man, cranky Fitz is cranky. But I can also see why hanging around Deke is exhausting. Not that he doesn't have a right to be fascinated with this new world, but constantly talking about it must get frustrating after a point. I also understand that part of it was to play around with the Deke is Fitzsimmons' grandson angle that was hidden from the characters until the end of this episode, which I was a lot less bothered by the second watch around. I noted that Deke actually showcased how much of Fitzsimmons' intelligence he inherited, which they have been subtly planting throughout the season anyway. He just wasn't educated in order to hone in on his intelligence. At the very least, he has the potential to be smart like his grandparents. Likely not on the same level, but higher than they assume he has now.

I did chuckle at Deke's meeting with his "mom". He seemed like such a little kid in that moment, putting down the knife when she told him to, his sheer embarrassment when she talked about Daisy, and his wide eyed stare when he saw her. This may be the first episode where I actually liked Deke. I also loved the weird look Fitz gave Deke at the end when Deke was staring at him like a wonderous lovestruck fool. It's like Deke was seeing them for the first time, with fresh eyes (which he really was). 

I also liked Coulson's constant insistence that they need to let him die, followed by Daisy and May not letting that happen. Coulson's death really is his choice, but it is nice to see the two closest people to him are willing to fight for him. Did Elena even tell everyone about Old Yo-Yo's message about needing to let Coulson die in order to save the world? Because I can't remember if it's been brought up. 

Ultimately, I'm fascinated with how Jemma and Fitz will put together the Deke connection. Will Hale end up telling them? Will she do it by kidnapping one of the three of them? Will Deke let them in on what he discovered? Will they figure it out themselves? This show does tend to do the unexpected, so I'm excited to find out how it happens. 

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Lobsel Vith said:

The only long-term man of color this show has ever had (without killing them off) is Mack - Trip and Andrew were killed off after getting bits of storyline, Joey and Robbie didn't get much before their vanishing acts (Radcliffe and Deke, for example, were given considerably more), so it would've been nice if this season had been different and veered in another direction with a long-term character. If you didn't have the character sell someone into slavery (because the show has never properly handled that, and at this point Deke is basically just a walking easter egg for FitzSimmons with no real purpose except to be woobified because he's the grandson of Fitz and Simmons), it would've been nice. As it stands, it's one of the problems with AoS, and if this is the last season, it'll be one of the flaws with the show as a whole.

Ahhh Trip... Shoved aside for hunter because I guess two black guys is one too many.. Joey deff was here then gone.. Not sure what was up with that... Andrew and Robbie at least got a lil bit

[tessaray]

1 hour ago, Lobsel Vith said:

The only long-term man of color this show has ever had (without killing them off) is Mack - Trip and Andrew were killed off after getting bits of storyline, Joey and Robbie didn't get much before their vanishing acts (Radcliffe and Deke, for example, were given considerably more), so it would've been nice if this season had been different and veered in another direction with a long-term character. If you didn't have the character sell someone into slavery (because the show has never properly handled that, and at this point Deke is basically just a walking easter egg for FitzSimmons with no real purpose except to be woobified because he's the grandson of Fitz and Simmons), it would've been nice. As it stands, it's one of the problems with AoS, and if this is the last season, it'll be one of the flaws with the show as a whole.

 

AoS deserves some criticism on the diversity front - like most mainstream network shows.  But focusing on Deke selling someone into slavery doesn't take into consideration that all humans in that future were basically slaves, even if it looked like there were some like Deke who were flying under the radar. Evil Overlords tend to ignore that stuff - allowing a limited amount of prohibited activity because it works to their benefit.  

It seems to me that Coulson and crew are treating Deke like a collaborator, more or less. There are always collaborators in any subjugated population - like African slaves who were also overseers or Jewish guards in concentration camps.  It's a complicated and sensitive subject that I don't feel up to making judgments about.  I'm sure Deke thought turning in Daisy so he could help the others was really the right thing to do.  Maybe we would too, if we were born into that environment.  I hope not but we didn't see many heroes in that future. We saw survivors, survivors who did ugly things or turned a blind eye to those who did. 

[Froippi]

ok we might not ever find this information out but do you think Kasius May have done something to Deke's mom because Deke's Mom knew who Fitz and SImmons really were

[Quark]

It was a good episode, the most amusing parts being Fitz and Deke playing catch and Yoyo's "I'm stumped" comment.

This episode reminded me of Rain's death though, which made me quite sad. Such a great character.

[tessaray]

1 hour ago, Froippi said:

ok we might not ever find this information out but do you think Kasius May have done something to Deke's mom because Deke's Mom knew who Fitz and SImmons really were

I'm terrible at timelines. Do we know how long Kasius was in charge or when Deke's mom died? 

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, tessaray said:

I'm terrible at timelines. Do we know how long Kasius was in charge or when Deke's mom died? 

I'm not sure if they ever mentioned how long Kasius was in charge, but he was in charge before Deke was born, since Deke was one of the last naturally born humans, if not the last. But Deke's mother died when he was nine. I'm not sure how old Deke is supposed to be (perhaps around the actor's age, which is early 30s), but she's been gone for at least two decades. 

I'm also curious on the timeline from Jemma and Fitz having their daughter to Deke's present day 2091. It seems like Jemma and Fitz must have had their daughter well after the world ended. 

[blueray]

Quote

I'm also curious on the timeline from Jemma and Fitz having their daughter to Deke's present day 2091. It seems like Jemma and Fitz must have had their daughter well after the world ended

I'm guessing that Deke is around 30. So that would make him born in 2061 (assuming that 2091 is where the future stuff was, I couldn't remember the date). His mother would have had been like 40 (I guess) when she had him. Making her born in 2021. Which would make sense, as it's a few years after Fitzsimmons got married. And it must have been a few years after the incident but may have been before the Kree came. My guess is she was a child when they came and killed her parents. So ironically making he know them better than she ever did :(. Which would also explain why she never mentioned their names or said much about them. Not that she didn't know it, but only had a few vivid memories of them.

[Lobsel Vith]

7 hours ago, tessaray said:

AoS deserves some criticism on the diversity front - like most mainstream network shows.  But focusing on Deke selling someone into slavery doesn't take into consideration that all humans in that future were basically slaves, even if it looked like there were some like Deke who were flying under the radar. Evil Overlords tend to ignore that stuff - allowing a limited amount of prohibited activity because it works to their benefit.

The denizens of the Lighthouse lived under tyranny, but that's not the same as slavery - there's a difference. And Deke admitted to working for Kasius - he wasn't flying 'under the radar', and even his Framework network had the sanction of the Kree.

7 hours ago, tessaray said:

It seems to me that Coulson and crew are treating Deke like a collaborator, more or less. There are always collaborators in any subjugated population - like African slaves who were also overseers or Jewish guards in concentration camps.  It's a complicated and sensitive subject that I don't feel up to making judgments about.  I'm sure Deke thought turning in Daisy so he could help the others was really the right thing to do.  Maybe we would too, if we were born into that environment.  I hope not but we didn't see many heroes in that future. We saw survivors, survivors who did ugly things or turned a blind eye to those who did. 

We've met characters like Tess, Flint, and Ben who illustrate that Deke's upbringing doesn't excuse his actions, and he shows absolutely no concern for any of the people once he agrees to work with Coulson because he thinks it'll give him a chance to speak with his father. He only brings them up when he wants to frame his actions as heroic and vilify Daisy for trying to save Jemma's life. I don't think that slavery needs to become an issue that we're willing to overlook simply because the person who engages in it had a difficult life. It's the kind of mindset that lead to the SWW fandom making excuses for every horrible thing Ward did because he had an awful childhood.

And I don't see why we need to be sympathetic to people who engage in slavery, particularly when one of the victims is part of the cast.

[AKA...CJ86]

Is Ruby's rebellion part of the Mother's plan, or is she for real?  

Glad to see the von Strucker kid, so much from the past packed in these recent episodes and loving it.  But you know what, it just makes me miss my favorite character... Ward...

"Fetch" and "I'm stumped" moments and quotes from the episode.

Deke, maybe slowly growing on me...

[tessaray]

1 hour ago, Lobsel Vith said:

I don't think that slavery needs to become an issue that we're willing to overlook simply because the person who engages in it had a difficult life. It's the kind of mindset that lead to the SWW fandom making excuses for every horrible thing Ward did because he had an awful childhood.

I don't think you can compare Deke and Ward. I didn't like Ward and don't miss him. Deke might be redeemable, or not.  We'll see where the writing goes. 

[Lobsel Vith]

1 hour ago, tessaray said:

I don't think you can compare Deke and Ward. I didn't like Ward and don't miss him. Deke might be redeemable, or not.  We'll see where the writing goes. 

Ward's childhood was used to justify his actions. Deke's childhood is used to justify his actions. Ward crossed a serious line when he threatened to rape Daisy. Deke did something egregious when he sold Daisy into slavery for money. There are comparisons to be made between the two. Deke comes across like a 'what if' scenario if the SWW fandom had gotten their way and Ward was reintroduced into the cast with everyone handwaving what he did, which is exactly what happened when everyone just conveniently forgot all about their anger towards Deke for engaging in slavery. Both cases are ridiculously annoying when people try to justify either man for doing something reprehensible.

[tessaray]

I don't actually know what a SWW fandom is but if it's about Ward, then that's probably why. 

Right now, it seems to me that the team is barely tolerating Deke. They are (quite pragmatically) using him for his ability to go out in public, for what he knows about the end of the world and because he inadvertently came through the monoliths because of them but otherwise he's treated like a nuisance, at best. However, I'll admit you're likely right - there's a good chance they will handwave what he's done once they find out he's related to FitzSimmons and skip the real redemption arc. 

[Raja]

10 minutes ago, tessaray said:

I don't actually know what a SWW fandom is but if it's about Ward, then that's probably why. 

Right now, it seems to me that the team is barely tolerating Deke. They are (quite pragmatically) using him for his ability to go out in public, for what he knows about the end of the world and because he inadvertently came through the monoliths because of them but otherwise he's treated like a nuisance, at best. However, I'll admit you're likely right - there's a good chance they will handwave what he's done once they find out he's related to FitzSimmons and skip the real redemption arc. 

Stand With Ward

 

That along with hate of Skye/Daisy and I guess now Deke has been a reoccurring feature of talk about this series. 

[blugirlami21]

I loved the episode. I feel like the show has been firing on all cylinders lately.

Not sure how I feel about Dove Cameron's character or storyline. She's hit or miss as an actress for me. I don't care too too much about the motley crue of inhumans (almost typed metahumans ;) ) she's collected either. 

Loved that Deke figured out that FitzSimmons are his grandparents, his reaction was genuine and sweet.

I personally don't have a problem with Deke. He isn't anywhere near Ward's level of evil, not by a longshot. He decided not to trust Daisy based on what he thought he knew about her at the time. He prob won't be the first or last to do so. He was willing to die for the cause, I'm not sure what more we can ask from the character.

Sure he can be annoying at times but I've thought the same about any one of the characters at one time or another. He's the grandson of Fitzsimmons, clearly the writers are planning on him being around for a little while. Ymmv as always I guess.

[tessaray]

Just now, Raja said:

Stand With Ward

 

That along with hate of Skye/Daisy and I guess now Deke has been a reoccurring feature of talk about this series. 

Thanks for the link.  I guess I don't get away from PTV enough (though even I am aware of the Skye/Daisy hate). I've always liked Daisy and Coulson's father/daughter vibe, enough to balance out how annoying hacker Skye could be.

[VCRTracking]

Loved Coulson's "U Can't Touch This" crack at Mac!

I was really afraid Jake Busey was going to be evil and turn out to be working Hale!

I didn't like Deke when he was first introduced, and really didn't like him when he sold out Daisy but I grew to like him over the last couple of episodes. Once they stopped trying to have him outbadass our main characters like May and Daisy and had him be just a goofball who barely manages to get out of situations. I don't think you can compare Deke to Ward. Even with the abused childhood stuff, they always depicted him as a despicable villain right to the end when Coulson killed him. There was no redemption for him no matter how much his fans wanted it. Sure they showed the Framework version was good when someone other than Garrett had recruited him but that ship had sailed and it's a "What could have been". Deke on the other hand, had the arc of going from cynical pragmatist out for himself to willing to sacrifice his life for others. Some viewers are never going to forgive him and that's fair.
 

Edited March 18, 2018 by VCRTracking

[Lobsel Vith]

3 hours ago, blugirlami21 said:

I personally don't have a problem with Deke. He isn't anywhere near Ward's level of evil, not by a longshot. He decided not to trust Daisy based on what he thought he knew about her at the time. He prob won't be the first or last to do so. He was willing to die for the cause, I'm not sure what more we can ask from the character.

He sold someone into slavery for money. That's not something I'm inclined to handwave just because he disliked Daisy. And his hollow sacrifice means nothing when it's a lazy narrative attempt to give Deke some bonus points without him actually sacrificing anything when characters like Trip and Andrew made genuine sacrifices on this show that lead to an actual demise.

25 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I don't think you can compare Deke to Ward. Even with the abused childhood stuff, they always depicted him as a despicable villain right to the end when Coulson killed him. There was no redemption for him no matter how much his fans wanted it. 

I don't agree. You can compare Deke to Ward when Deke brings up his childhood as an excuse for what he did to Daisy the same way that the SWW fandom used Ward's childhood as an excuse for what he did as a villain. We know that Deke worked for Kasius (by his own admission), and we know he sold at least one person into slavery for money; sure, we aren't familiar with all his potential crimes the way we're cognizant about the atrocities committed by Ward, but it's not difficult to understand that he did some terrible things if he was working for Kasius.

Frankly, Deke is only "redeemed" because the show handwaved what he did to Daisy, and had the characters completely ignored their initial reactions towards him for no actual reason - it was simply Daisy, Fitz, and Simmons no longer wanting him dead or being angry with him with no explanation given for the dramatic shift. Even allowing him with the group at the time made absolutely no sense, and requires fan theories to try and even make sense out of that asinine decision.

25 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Sure they showed the Framework version was good when someone other than Garrett had recruited him but that ship had sailed and it's a "What could have been".

The storyline used Ward's victims to prop him, including Victoria Hand, and they ignored an opportunity to finally explore Trip's character to, instead, focus on someone who already had three seasons of screentime (and I'd argue that he had a season and a half more of screentime that he should've had at that point). Trying to elicit sympathy for Ward in an anti-Nazi storyline was more than a little ridiculous.

[VCRTracking]

Well on to other things I loved:

Mack getting robot arms for Yoyo was awesomely romantic.

Fitzsimmons calling each other "husband" and "wife".

May and Daisy both not giving up on saving Coulson.

[Froippi]

51 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

He sold someone into slavery for money. That's not something I'm inclined to handwave just because he disliked Daisy. And his hollow sacrifice means nothing when it's a lazy narrative attempt to give Deke some bonus points without him actually sacrificing anything when characters like Trip and Andrew made genuine sacrifices on this show that lead to an actual demise.

I don't agree. You can compare Deke to Ward when Deke brings up his childhood as an excuse for what he did to Daisy the same way that the SWW fandom used Ward's childhood as an excuse for what he did as a villain. We know that Deke worked for Kasius (by his own admission), and we know he sold at least one person into slavery for money; sure, we aren't familiar with all his potential crimes the way we're cognizant about the atrocities committed by Ward, but it's not difficult to understand that he did some terrible things if he was working for Kasius.

Frankly, Deke is only "redeemed" because the show handwaved what he did to Daisy, and had the characters completely ignored their initial reactions towards him for no actual reason - it was simply Daisy, Fitz, and Simmons no longer wanting him dead or being angry with him with no explanation given for the dramatic shift. Even allowing him with the group at the time made absolutely no sense, and requires fan theories to try and even make sense out of that asinine decision.

The storyline used Ward's victims to prop him, including Victoria Hand, and they ignored an opportunity to finally explore Trip's character to, instead, focus on someone who already had three seasons of screentime (and I'd argue that he had a season and a half more of screentime that he should've had at that point). Trying to elicit sympathy for Ward in an anti-Nazi storyline was more than a little ridiculous.

didn't they sorta of Handwave over Fitz and Simmons problems after the framework at the end of last season and they never talked about just seems at some point you would think those two would need to talk about the Framework Trauma 

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

 

I don't agree. You can compare Deke to Ward when Deke brings up his childhood as an excuse for what he did to Daisy the same way that the SWW fandom used Ward's childhood as an excuse for what he did as a villain..

I think you may be confusing ‘excuse’ with ‘reason’  It is a lot easier to deal with someone’s actions if you can understand why they did them, even if you wouldn’t do the same thing. And, while slavery is a hard ‘no’ for me it clearly crops up in many societies widely separated by time and geography. Are all people in these societies, the Bantu as a whole for example, evil? 

Also our heroes are responsible for summarily taking freedom away from a lot of people by killing them. Libertarians would say this is better and so would I, sometimes, but it is worth thinking about. 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Affogato
Didnt

[shrewd.buddha]

I was impressed that the writers had gravitomium  in mind from the very beginning of the season : making Deke an expert and possessor of it - and now needing gravitomium to pull together the dimensional tear. 

What I am not happy about is that almost all the crises (that I can think of) that AoS deals with are mainly the result of SHIELD's own actions or involvement (The Cracked Earth Future, Aida, the Framework, dropping Inhuman-creating crystals in the ocean, the Hydra stuff, etc.). If Daisy and the three couples had just parted ways when they returned to their proper time there would have been no Trojan horse bomb brought back to cause the time/space crack.
It would be nice if there were a story where AoS tackled and solved a problem that had nothing to do with them. Maybe save some kittens from trees or whatnot. It would help to establish some goodwill with the general public. There may have been a few missions like that in the early seasons, but the memory is faint. All the missions seem to have been tied back to some unfinished business on SHIELD's part.
It would also be nice if AoS were allowed to mention any of the Avengers or even Nick Fury .. such as why Tony Stark cannot be contacted to help with stopping the Earth from being destroyed. For that matter, why did Deathlok and the other SHIELD remnants only stay for the wedding when the couples contingent of SHIELD are dealing with a hostile military group and rip in time/space? Are they busy with something else? What would that be? 

[Affogato]

56 minutes ago, shrewd.buddha said:

I was impressed that the writers had gravitomium  in mind from the very beginning of the season : making Deke an expert and possessor of it - and now needing gravitomium to pull together the dimensional tear. 

What I am not happy about is that almost all the crises (that I can think of) that AoS deals with are mainly the result of SHIELD's own actions or involvement (The Cracked Earth Future, Aida, the Framework, dropping Inhuman-creating crystals in the ocean, the Hydra stuff, etc.). If Daisy and the three couples had just parted ways when they returned to their proper time there would have been no Trojan horse bomb brought back to cause the time/space crack.
It would be nice if there were a story where AoS tackled and solved a problem that had nothing to do with them. Maybe save some kittens from trees or whatnot. It would help to establish some goodwill with the general public. There may have been a few missions like that in the early seasons, but the memory is faint. All the missions seem to have been tied back to some unfinished business on SHIELD's part.
It would also be nice if AoS were allowed to mention any of the Avengers or even Nick Fury .. such as why Tony Stark cannot be contacted to help with stopping the Earth from being destroyed. For that matter, why did Deathlok and the other SHIELD remnants only stay for the wedding when the couples contingent of SHIELD are dealing with a hostile military group and rip in time/space? Are they busy with something else? What would that be? 

 

I thought in the beginning they picked up after the superheroes. Now the superheroes should pick up after them?

im all for the kittens, though  

[MisterGlass]

Enjoyed this one, especially the loving mockery of Mack's MC Hammer period.

Since his unexpected trip back to the present, Deke has started to grow on me.  I like the way they are embracing his whiny, reluctant, self-interested nature while simultaneously showing his uncynical joy about trees and popsicles.  I hope they don't turn him into a hero, but that he continues to hover on the good side.  I'm not crazy about him as a Simmons-Fitz, but I'll reserve judgement.  However, he's a paradox if they save the world, unless they pull out a parallel universe or something. 

I also didn't remember the Strucker kid initially, but eventually caught up.  Not sold on the Ruby plot as of yet.  If they do bring back more characters, I hope Joey is one.  I liked him.

[blueray]

Quote

  If they do bring back more characters, I hope Joey is one

Me too, what happened to him?

[MisterGlass]

16 minutes ago, blueray said:

Me too, what happened to him?

Googled to refresh my memory.  Joey didn't like what he was being asked to do, and he was suspected (incorrectly) of being one of Hive's minions.  He left, and never came back.

[VCRTracking]

8 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

I also didn't remember the Strucker kid initially, but eventually caught up.  Not sold on the Ruby plot as of yet. 

Someone on the "Afterbuzz TV" aftershow coined the term "Hydra playdates" which made me laugh.

Edited March 19, 2018 by VCRTracking

[HerkyJerky]

Loved the jokes already mentioned but my favorite was when Fitz said to Simmons that he can't stand Deke because he reminds him of Scrappy Doo.  LOL!

[blueray]

13 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

Googled to refresh my memory.  Joey didn't like what he was being asked to do, and he was suspected (incorrectly) of being one of Hive's minions.  He left, and never came back.

Oh okay. That's to bad, because he was a good character.

[jhlipton]

On 3/16/2018 at 7:07 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I thought it was interesting for Ruby to open up to him like that. I know she did tell him the truth about the plan, but why he went along with it is beyond me. Which, I guess, did work out in Ruby's favour if she's tricking him and doing what her mother asked.

If Dove Cameron was a halfway decent actress, we might have a glimmer as to what she thinking.  Alex stupidly thinks he's going to "get some" (not realizing that the kind of person Rubuy is never comes through).

On 3/18/2018 at 9:07 AM, shrewd.buddha said:

It would be nice if there were a story where AoS tackled and solved a problem that had nothing to do with them. Maybe save some kittens from trees or whatnot. It would help to establish some goodwill with the general public. There may have been a few missions like that in the early seasons, but the memory is faint. All the missions seem to have been tied back to some unfinished business on SHIELD's part.

The kitten only ran up the tree because it was scared of Mac's shotgun-axe!

[Sandman]

So, what's Ruby's story? She's ... not quite right. I'm tempted to say that she's Ruby the Robot, but that seems too pat.

[Lady Calypso]

Just now, Sandman said:

So, what's Ruby's story? She's ... not quite right. I'm tempted to say that she's Ruby the Robot, but that seems too pat.

I'm not sure whether it's a weird quirk thing that Dove Cameron put on Ruby, or if it's supposed to imply that Ruby may not be entirely human, but she was doing this constant head tilt when talking to Alex near the end of the episode. It was really distracting for me, for some reason. 

[Enigma X]

I don't know, the way Dove Cameron pouts her lips is putting me off on Ruby. I am just annoyed when people do that. It is not cute even on a cute person.

[Sandman]

Cameron's demeanour (including the head tilts and lip-pursing/pouty pose) seems almost to indicate simulation of human emotion, rather than actual experience of it, which is what's making me wonder. Maybe she's going for Odd Girl, but to me it's reading as more damaged or artificial than quirky. Not that "Alex Braun" is any kind of approximation of healthy humanity either. Put the two of them together and there's so much Unexploded Stabby Trauma in the room that it's making me twitchy.

On 3/18/2018 at 4:24 AM, VCRTracking said:

Fitzsimmons calling each other "husband" and "wife".

Objectively speaking this shouldn't have been as completely adorable as it actually was. I can't find a rational, scientific explanation for how charming I found it.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Sandman