S03.E13: Nathaniel is Irrelevant!

[Empress1]

Quote

When Rebecca decides to make amends for her past, she finds some unexpected challenges. At the same time, West Covina awaits an important new arrival. 

[Eeksquire]

What the hell? This is seriously how they're going to lead into the next season?! 

[SomeTameGazelle]

11 minutes ago, Eeksquire said:

What the hell? This is seriously how they're going to lead into the next season?! 

When Nathaniel said he had broken up with Mona because he was in love with Rebecca, I assumed it was too good to be true and at least some of what we were seeing had to be a dream or hallucination or fantasy. 

Mona doesn't deserve this.

Nathaniel's help was bad. Pleading guilty wasn't good (since Rebecca's doing it to accept responsibility for all the other things she has done wrong; she did attack Trent in order to save Nathaniel's life) but pleading insanity because she didn't have evidence on her side was a copout.

Not a great episode. Too much Nathaniel. The only hope I have is that the last minute made it clear that Rebecca's relationship with Paula is going to get more attention. 

[Empress1]

I'm not sure the show has been renewed, so this could be the way the show goes out. If it does get renewed, I'd guess they won't show her in prison for long. Since Trent survived, maybe he'll confess to trying to kill Nathaniel. I knew Rebecca was going to plead guilty - the "everything is someone else's fault" song was a dead giveaway.

Heather carried the baby for free? She's more altruistic than I. I hope Darryl at least covered her medical expenses.

[AfterwardsTV]

Saw the song earlier today without context (can't stop replaying it btw) so it looked like Rebecca was going to make the toxic choice and not snap out of it until next season. Happy to find instead she made the choice to face her real fears, the punishment progress she didn't get before because the suicide attempt just continued her special treatment. The whole pushing Trent into a pool thing was a clunky way to get here (mainly because what was Trent waiting for with that knife? Just like kidnapping Josh's mom I'm not sure he was actually going to hurt Nathaniel), but I'm fine with Mr. Plot Device helping Rebecca become responsible for her actions in his own full body cast way....

I feel like there's been at least some foreshadowing of an eventual prison sentence. I'm sure it will be moderately short, and we know time skips can occur. There's a lot of ways this can shake up Rebecca's career and maybe her not taking Nathaniel's offer of another free pass up was her way of breaking it off with him.

I'm glad White Josh came by as a friend instead of some cliche moment where he sees the baby and misses Darryl and realizes they need to be together. They might still get together in S4, but at least if it happens it'll be a slow burn where White Josh gets the freedom to jump in when he feels ready instead of being pressured.

[Yeah No]

This was not the season finale I was expecting at all.  I thought the episode was ending when Rebecca lunged at Trent.  I think I would have been more satisfied with that than what we got.  I thought the same thing that maybe Trent will confess to trying to kill Nathaniel if the show is renewed.  But if it's not this is not such a great note on which to end things.  There's so much set-up for the future that it doesn't feel like enough closure.  I get it that this is a perfect way for Rebecca to truly redeem herself with everyone (including herself), though, and that's probably more the ultimate goal of the show than anything else.

I'm not sure how I feel about Nathaniel just dumping Mona like that.  How sudden and cruel timing-wise could it get?  She's probably better off as he was not over Rebecca anyway.  He has a long way to go himself.

I did think the birth got a little shorted somehow.  I understand that Heather didn't want a crowd in the room but I thought that they'd at least be in the waiting room pacing around like expectant parents, not home or at a party.  I loved it that WhiJo showed up, that was very touching.  I have a feeling he's going to come around in time about the baby and they'll get back together.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Yeah No

[Empress1]

I hope WhiJo doesn’t come around. Some people don’t want kids. I have had a friend since high school who has known since puberty that she doesn’t want kids, and she has never faltered. She’s married to a guy who also doesn’t want kids, because ... of course she is. There’s nothing wrong with WhiJo not wanting kids, it is an excellent reason for them (or anyone) not to be together, and I think it would be braver of the show to keep them as friends.

[Yeah No]

I guess like Darryl, I'm a romantic so I'd rather see them back together.  I never had kids either (never wanted them) but I think my heart could have changed in a similar situation.  I don't think the show needs to make any point about being child-free as a valid choice.  Sometimes love does really conquer all (yeah, I said I was a romantic!) and I personally would rather see that as the point being made.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Yeah No

[Caseysgirl]

I realize that Rebecca feels as though she must do penance for all her bad behavior, but wouldn't pleading guilty prevent her from having a trial and wouldn't the punishment for attempted murder be rather stiff?

[Irlandesa]

I think it's kind of a tricky.  I get that WhiJo doesn't want to have a kid and that's fine but he was willing to be with Darryl even though Darryl has a rather young daughter. 

Is he okay with stepkids as long as he's not the one responsible for raising them?  How much responsibility would he be willing to shoulder? That's the question he needs to answer for himself.

(I haven't seen the ep yet so if they've answered this...forgive my mootness.)

[KingOfHearts]

I'm just going to say it - I don't really like where this show is going. "Rebecca goes to jail" isn't all that exciting. The Nathaniel train keeps chugging along. Darryl has his baby... yay I guess? None of the other characters seem to have anything interesting going for them. 

Quote

Pleading guilty wasn't good (since Rebecca's doing it to accept responsibility for all the other things she has done wrong; she did attack Trent in order to save Nathaniel's life) but pleading insanity because she didn't have evidence on her side was a copout.

If Rebecca is going to be punished, she should be for something she actually did wrong. There's nothing satisfying about this to me. It's just a clunky way to deal with all her baggage. Instead of mending her relationships, she's going to be behind bars.

Edited February 17, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Irlandesa]

While I liked the fact that the show focused on Paula and Rebecca's relationship the most in the end with Nathan inspiring her to lean into excusing her actions while seeing Paula pushed her to try and accept responsibility, I share the regret that it was about something she was "justified" doing. (Although I don't know how much I agree that saving Nathaniel was the right thing to do.)

Like much of this season, this episode didn't quite work for me.  There were some nice moments, like WhiJo telling Darryl that Hebecca was an objectively awful name.  But I found it a bit anti-climatic to have Rebecca choose to just reveal everything she had done with letters and then the major event she owns is something that happened in this episode that no one would blame her for.

[possibilities]

I did appreciate Paula's song about childbirth.

[cailinoBAC]

Oh God I don't know, I'm 6 months pregnant with my first and it terrified me! 

[morgan]

Not sure what to think of the ending or where the show is going.  Will she go to jail?  Does the judge just accept her pleading guilty?  Was all/part of this a hallucination?  No idea

i do like her with Nathanial.  It’s probably the most honest relationship either has ever had.  And I’m happy he broke up with Mona.  It will hurt her now but she is much better off.  Loved the little “settle for me” music between the two.

Now for my biggest question.  Where the hell was Darryl’s daughter?????  

[sacrebleu]

Well, I googled it, and Rebecca could still practice law in CA with a felony conviction-- but she'd have to provide proof of reform and rehabilitation. Gotta say-- I'm wondering if someone will figure out a way to get those instagram messages into evidence (or Trent's storage locker o' Rebecca stalking).

(and the fact that I'm trying to Law & Order this situation means the show is suffering from some message creep)

[LunaSoma]

I’m thinking the whole thing is some sort of elaborate setup between Trent and the people Rebecca has wronged. Nathaniel’s conversation with her was too convenient/wish fulfillment-esque. We never saw Trent in his full body cast and again, convenient that he landed in a pool. Even if the Instagram story disappeared, the cops have the technology to retrieve these things, it doesn’t really just poof away into oblivion. My thought is this is a way for all these people to see if Rebecca would truly take responsibility for her actions when there are real consequences on the line.

It’s ridiculous and elaborate, but so are many of the schemes in this show. It negates the need for another time jump and it doesn’t create some loophole where Rebecca is found not guilty isn’t held responsible for her actions once again.

[HeyLookItsAng]

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I'm wondering if someone will figure out a way to get those instagram messages into evidence (or Trent's storage locker o' Rebecca stalking)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that someone will be Paula. I think Paula's going to save her.

Edited February 17, 2018 by HeyLookItsAng
I can't spell.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I guess like Darryl, I'm a romantic so I'd rather see them back together.  I never had kids either (never wanted them) but I think my heart could have changed in a similar situation.  I don't think the show needs to make any point about being child-free as a valid choice.  Sometimes love does really conquer all (yeah, I said I was a romantic!) and I personally would rather see that as the point being made.

I'm actually glad the show didn't go there as having a kid is a huge deal, and you shouldn't be deciding these things based on momentary romantic notions. 

[DianeDobbler]

The seasons don't have that many episodes, but as a former soap opera viewer, the entire back half of this season, and particularly the finale, has the feel of tapped out soap opera writers deconstructing everything and making overt what was only implicit, AND rushing things to shock value without earning them, because they're out of ideas. Trent was a brilliant character where there was the sense he could be dangerous, but also the idea that he was just on the spectrum, took advantage, but didn't have it in him to be the explicit cartoon monster he became in this finale. So they ruined that character. "I'm a sexy scary man?" Come on. Even Paula's reaction to Rebecca's lies felt overblown, because it came off one episode, with no season-long build up, so the whole thing felt over-acted and forced to me. It wasn't earned this time, not as far as building it up dramatically. I don't know, it felt both padded AND as if the writers were throwing every gimmick, cheap joke and cheap call back into the script they could.  

I'm super tired of Nathaniel, but it's not even him. It's the way it's written is so pedestrian. I hate to say Greg was better, but Greg was better, including his relationship with Heather. He actually liked Heather, and the way they ended made sense since Greg's focus on Rebecca, and the psychological reasons for it, had been established over two seasons. Mona is just your conventional "Good on paper" girlfriend where the dude makes the sad "I'm not feeling it" face while trying to nobly go through the motions. Also, if they were moving into his apartment, why were they shopping for apartment stuff? 

I thought this season would at least somewhat deal with Josh, but he was made into a joke. There was even a water cooler joke that viewers were supposed to remember from a season and a half back? It's not fair to the character. Back when Rebecca was after him, the big contrast was he didn't understand 99% of her frame of references, which included everything from academic studies to great movies and books. So now she's into a guy where she shares Harry Potter references, so that's a big step up. It could certainly just be on me, but I had a hard time staying with this episode until the end, right from the beginning. And one final thing, the show used to build up to a song throughout the episode, but now they don't bother with the build up. They just rush to the pay off or joke.

I'm now thinking it was a mistake to diagnose Rebecca this season because the writers don't know how to write this show without the underpinning that Rebecca has undiagnosed disorders and, most importantly, is in severe denial. The denial that drove her to act out was what grounded CEG. Now she's aware, but rationalizing, which is a whole other thing and a mess.

Edited February 17, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[SomeTameGazelle]

33 minutes ago, LunaSoma said:

Even if the Instagram story disappeared, the cops have the technology to retrieve these things, it doesn’t really just poof away into oblivion.

In the Vulture story about the episode they refer to Snapchat instead of Instagram. I know it was actually Instagram in the show but when they said it had disappeared I wondered why they had used Instagram instead of Snapchat.

[Empress1]

28 minutes ago, DianeDobbler said:

Also, if they were moving into his apartment, why were they shopping for apartment stuff? 

I can see wanting a few new pieces so the place feels more like theirs rather than his. Mona deserves better.

[DianeDobbler]

morgan, reading between the lines of the "making of the episode" it comes across that only in the penultimate episode did the CEG writers realize the entire show had become about Nathaniel and Rebecca's supposed love story, and that was why the penultimate episode and the finale had to be tweaked by re-emphasizing Paula. I mean, Aline Brosh McKenna doesn't say it explicitly, but she pretty much acknowledges the last two episodes were not working, were boring, and had no viable stakes, and they fixed it by bringing in Paula.

It does feel as if her plot points were rushed in, as in "Hey, remember when these two were super tight - well, they were so now lets set up stakes really fast and have Rebecca betray her!" It definitely felt rushed in. I hope though, that they've had a larger recognition that they spent the back half of the season marginalizing everything but Nathaniel and whatever B plot was going on - the baby mostly. I really resented seeing Josh and Valencia dragged in as extras for the courtroom scene - it really made no sense for Josh to be there, but it just came off as if they were looking for places to squeeze both of them in, which is kind of insulting. I hope they don't make the same mistake in S4 - what CEG did with the the Nathaniel thing REALLY rankles, especially for this show of all shows.

Edited February 17, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[tennisgurl]

You know, I think the courtroom scene where Rebecca decides to be held responsible for her actions (call back!) would have been a lot more powerful if she was being arrested for something she actually did, and not trying to save someone from her crazy stalker. I mean, yeah it is her fault that she made up a fake boyfriend in one of her Josh related plots and that brought Trent into her life, but its still not fair to blame her for Trent becoming a psycho killer. Which, also, wow did that escalate quickly! Trent went from creepy to murderous in about a day or two, didst he? I like Trent as a mirror to Rebecca, and I guess that still works (she did order a hit on someone for a few minutes), but it kind of seemed contrived to get us to the courtroom scene. Where can this go now? Orange is the New Black, CW style?

I did like the songs this week. "The Big Bang is the ultimate bad dad!"and other such things, and Paula is such a good singer, its always nice when she gets something, even if her songs are always weirdly gross. 

I think Nathaniel is fine as a character, but I dont really like him as Rebecca's main love interest. His character is just rather cliche (rich jerk with a heart of gold and daddy issues) and while that isn't a bad thing, exactly, he gets so much screen time, it doesn't seem as interesting as I think the show thinks he is. He works fine as a supporting character or temporary love interest, but he has kind of been pushed to Male Lead all of the sudden, and it just doesn't really work. 

I also laughed at Heather being like "I volunteered for this because I`m free spirited, but now that its happening, this might not have been a great idea" right before the birth. What I wanted to know throughout the plot was, if having a kid is so important to Darryl, and having his loved ones/main cast members around is so important, where was his daughter in all this? Doesn't she want to meet her sister? Doesn't Darryl want to be a parent to his current kid even as he has done so much to get a new kid? Did she even get a mention this week?

I think my favorite scene was actually when Josh punched Nathaniel out for trying to deport his dad. 

[Yeah No]

4 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I'm actually glad the show didn't go there as having a kid is a huge deal, and you shouldn't be deciding these things based on momentary romantic notions. 

I never saw Darryl and WhiJo's relationship as based on momentarily romantic notions, but YMMV.  I think they truly love each other and I think love can eventually prevail in cases when that's the case, and accommodations made.  I personally see no reason to be closed to Josh having a change of heart considering how much these two care about each other.

An awful lot of people change their minds about having kids.  Men do it every day when their spouses or live in partners want to have and keep what is an unplanned baby.  Women do it too when they suddenly find themselves pregnant.  Suddenly everything looks different when it happens.  Not everyone leaves a relationship in cases like that just because they were originally against having children.  I grew up with several men who were dead set against having kids and guess what?  They ended up having kids when their wives suddenly turned up pregnant.  

WhiJo may not see himself as a primary care giver to a child but it looks like Darryl is more than happy to take on that role, so it may be easier for him to see himself in that situation.  Who knows?  The two of them may decide to live separately but still keep their relationship going.  The situation becomes one of not them having a child together but whether Josh wants to be involved with someone that has a child, and that's a different situation.

From what I saw in this episode I personally think the show might go in that direction in the future.  That's all I'm going to say on the subject.  

Edited February 17, 2018 by Yeah No

[theatremouse]

This show now has me wondering a little bit about my own mental health because I keep finding myself rationalizing the whole "Trent's blackmailing both of us" thing. I mean, I know that when Rebecca said it in the moment, it was a lie. A literal lie. Trent only showed up and tried to blackmail Rebecca. And so her consequent guilt, and Paula's anger in the episode all hinge on that. And they've been hammering it as this big lie since the scene first happened. But, really, given allllll the stuff Trent had over Rebecca...it wasn't JUST the Mona-dark-web thing. And a LOT of the bad stuff Rebecca did in the past DID involve Paula. So, realistically, even if he never actually said "I'll expose you AND Paula", the threat from the beginning was functionally against both of them. The second he threatens to expose everything Rebecca ever did, tons and tons of that directly implicates Paula. So the whole fight is really about semantics. OK, so it wasn't Trent came to Rebecca to blackmail her and Paula. But he was blackmailing Rebecca about things that implicate Paula so if Paula's only skin in the game was her own, it still made sense for Paula to participate last episode exactly as she did, to protect herself. It's not like Trent's going to draw a line on what he might expose about Rebecca, cherry-picking the things that can hurt Rebecca and only Rebecca. So the whole "she lied" thing really felt a little empty to me as a reason to be furious.

 

Which then promptly makes me think....welll...if Rebecca had given that explanation to Paula, Paula would probably see it as further manipulation and justifying and still not be pleased. Still Rebecca's a lawyer and Paula wants to be. So it shouldn't be shocking that they can both be persuasive people. The whole thing just annoys me.

 

On the other hand, Heather's Toni Braxton....Aaliyah spiel was hilarious.

[dubbel zout]

13 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

WhiJo telling Darryl that Hebecca was an objectively awful name

Bless WhiJo for doing that. Maybe once Heather wasn't so immediately postpartum and has some of her brain back (hee), she'd also tell him it was a terrible name.

4 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Mona deserves better.

She certainly does, and that's why I was glad Nathaniel broke up with her. Now she can find someone who doesn't cheat on her and lie to himself about his feelings.

36 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

 I think they truly love each other and I think love can eventually prevail in cases when that's the case, and accommodations made.

WhiJo and Darryl can truly love each other and still be on different sides of the kids issue. Wanting kids is about more than just loving your partner, and it shouldn't be an "accommodation" to have a kid when you don't want one (or vice versa).

41 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I grew up with several men who were dead set against having kids and guess what?  They ended up having kids when their wives suddenly turned up pregnant.  

That's great for those women and kids, but that's not the situation with Darryl and WhiJo.

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

It does feel as if her plot points were rushed in, as in "Hey, remember when these two were super tight - well, they were so now lets set up stakes really fast and have Rebecca betray her!"

I had mixed feelings about Paula's reaction initially. At first, I was shocked to see Rebecca getting consequences for lying to her. It seemed that it was going to be brushed under the rug. But of all the crappy things she did to her, this is what broke the camel's back? This is what made her break into tears? There should have been something else going on here. This episode and "Trent?!", other than the baby, had little to do with the rest of the season, imo. One was setup, the other was immediate payoff. No time to germinate.

It would have made a lot more sense if Rebecca had done many illegal things in her revenge against Josh, and this episode was Trent exposing her for them. But instead, what she did in the first half was played for laughs (sending Josh poop, ordering a hit on Josh's grandfather) and what she did get in trouble for was vastly contrived. Sitting in a jail cell is running away from her problems, not confronting them. The events of this episode just don't tie in very well with the rest of the season. Her confession towards the beginning was a step in the right direction, but Paula, Josh and Nathaniel were just the tip of the iceberg of people she needed to apologize to.

I didn't get the point of involving Rebecca with the Darryl baby plot. She didn't seem to care about the birth, and nobody cared that she wasn't there. Making her an egg donor is only convenient for the plot. It doesn't add or subtract anything.

Edited February 17, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[niklj]

Considering Rachel and the producers said they only planned for this show to have four seasons, I'm not dissatisfied with the finale because this shows real character development in Rebecca. While this season was meant to show her recovery, I have a feeling that the last season will really be about that.

The last song she sang with Nathaniel made me think of last season's theme song. "I'm just a girl in love, I'm not responsible for my actions."

[AfterwardsTV]

The reason Nathaniel is so involved where he shouldn't be is because the writers believe they still need Rebecca to have some kind of tension with a male lead to attract viewers. In some respects, they are right. Go look at the comment responses to "Nothing Is Ever Anyone's Fault". A lot of viewers are just here to root for a shipping instead of connecting to Rebecca's deeper issues or even just understanding the story being told. Only a small portion of CEG's 0.6 viewers are experiencing the journey and relating to it.

Nathaniel is an insurance policy to make sure those ratings don't fall even lower. But it feels like a decision that is going against everything the show tried to say it wasn't going to do before. When Greg left it was making a statement against the will they/won't they dynamic,. Now we're left bored out of our minds with Nathaniel because there are one of two ways it can end. Rebecca will be fulfilled by experiencing real love with Nathaniel, instead of getting a happy ending that doesn't involve guys. (Essentially pissing on Greg's legacy in her arc). Or (and I'm pretty sure the show wants us to know Nathaniel/Rebecca is toxic), the show is repeating the same trick it did the first time by fooling viewers into thinking Nathaniel will be "the one". Even when in Season 4 they theoretically put to bed that he's not "the one", we'll be exasperated because it took so long for them to just repeat a story beat with a different guy.

Do a Greg cameo, let Nathaniel somehow win Mona back a 2nd time, and put Josh in a real situation to evolve. But when Rebecca gets out of prison, I want her to have a new goal that isn't hopping on dicks.

[huahaha]

I loved the finale. After an uneven season, so many things finally paid off, from the romance with Nathaniel to the 8 month fast forward and even the Trent episode.

Rebecca's self-delusion has been based on the idea that unconditional love would fix her. Nathaniel finally proved that was a lie. He offered the full package: gorgeous (in show universe, whether you agree or not), as smart as she is, successful, deeply in love, great in bed, rich and well-bred, and he chose her even when he supposedly had better options. Turning down his offer to make her mistakes go away showed actual growth. 

Their duet at the end was one of my favorite songs of any season. I don't do amoral things like Rebecca and Nathaniel (and Paula, hypocrite), but the message of the the song still hit me hard. I'll listen to that for a long time.

I'm assuming (hoping) that based on the 8 month skip this season, we can fast forward through Rebecca's likely incarceration as well.

[whiporee]

2 hours ago, AfterwardsTV said:

The reason Nathaniel is so involved where he shouldn't be is because the writers believe they still need Rebecca to have some kind of tension with a male lead to attract viewers. In some respects, they are right. Go look at the comment responses to "Nothing Is Ever Anyone's Fault". A lot of viewers are just here to root for a shipping instead of connecting to Rebecca's deeper issues or even just understanding the story being told. Only a small portion of CEG's 0.6 viewers are experiencing the journey and relating to it.

Nathaniel is an insurance policy to make sure those ratings don't fall even lower. But it feels like a decision that is going against everything the show tried to say it wasn't going to do before. When Greg left it was making a statement against the will they/won't they dynamic,. Now we're left bored out of our minds with Nathaniel because there are one of two ways it can end. Rebecca will be fulfilled by experiencing real love with Nathaniel, instead of getting a happy ending that doesn't involve guys. (Essentially pissing on Greg's legacy in her arc). Or (and I'm pretty sure the show wants us to know Nathaniel/Rebecca is toxic), the show is repeating the same trick it did the first time by fooling viewers into thinking Nathaniel will be "the one". Even when in Season 4 they theoretically put to bed that he's not "the one", we'll be exasperated because it took so long for them to just repeat a story beat with a different guy.

Do a Greg cameo, let Nathaniel somehow win Mona back a 2nd time, and put Josh in a real situation to evolve. But when Rebecca gets out of prison, I want her to have a new goal that isn't hopping on dicks.

Greg left because the actor, justifiably thinking this wacky musical show wouldn't last past a season, signed to do something else. I've got no doubt at all if the actor hadn't wanted to leave, Greg and Rebecca would be endgame. None. Josh was never going to be endgame because he's fundamentally a dufus, and that was the main part of the first and second seasons -- showing Rebecca's obsession with someone so clearly mismatched with her in terms of intellect and goals was not just in love, but delusional.

I don't think Nathaniel's a dick replacement or anything of the sort. I actually like what they've done with him -- made someone who is TV-stereotypically gorgeous fall for someone who is not. I think Racheal Bloom is very pretty, but she's not a traditional Hollywood leading lady, and Mona is much more the kind of girl someone like Nathaniel ends up with. I appreciate they've done the sort of reverse Kevin James thing with them, because you don't see many hot buff guys with girls who are not as hot and buff. My regret in the pairing is that it seems emotionally rushed and squeezed in a season where Rebecca was going through a lot of things that all took time. I think we could have easily made the entire season about Rebecca's breakdown, suicide and therapy, but I don't know how much fun that would have been. What we can assume, though, that during the time jump they screwed and talked and worked together, and their connection was tighter than we've seen on the screen. Not a good storytelling device, but I think it's reasonable.  

The other thing to remember is that the person running this show is Rachel Bloom. She created the character. it's not a matter of writer's taking liberties with what she wanted to do -- this creation is what she wants it to be. Just like anyone can not like a work of art, people are free not to like the result. But I think it's unfair to point to writers and say they aren't following the creator's vision, because the person who oversees all of this is the creator. Rebecca may not be doing what you (meaning any particular audience member) want, but she's doing what the person who authored her wants her to do. You may not like the picture, but it's not fair to say it's being altered because it's not. 

[AllyB]

Trent is the founder and CEO of a successful computer programming company but was working as a waiter at the party of his ex's ex. Nathaniel is a crappy ass lawyer if he couldn't make the charges against Rebecca go away within 30 seconds of them first being mooted. And even if Nathaniel is a crappy ass lawyer, I doubt his dad is and no matter how cold a father he is, he's going to take charges against someone claiming to be defending his son from a threat to his life seriously. He'd have found the massive hole in Trent's 'story' and charges against Rebecca would have been dropped.

And even if all the lawyers were crappy, if Steve Jobs had been thrown off a roof journalists and the internet would be abuzz with questions about why he was working as a waiter at the party of his ex's ex. Her story that he was threatening to kill Nathaniel would be taken seriously. If Trent's sweaters imply nothing more than an homage to someone he'd like to be as successful as rather than a little hint to how successful he is, his company has been presented as being significant enough that enough people would take notice of his assault. I know CEG is an off the wall show where plot points don't stand up to careful scrutiny but this plot doesn't stand up to a cursory glance. 

I actually thought, when Trent called himself a sexy scary man that the episode would end with Trent having sex with Naomi and feeling awful with a reprise of 'never bang your ex-girlfriend's mom' thrown in. I'd have preferred that a lot. As the court scenes went on, I mainly just thought about how very, very glad Greg must be feeling that he walked away from Rebecca and wasn't drowning in her drama. He must wake up every day filled with relief.

[DianeDobbler]

On 2/17/2018 at 7:54 PM, whiporee said:

You may not like the picture, but it's not fair to say it's being altered because it's not. 

 

 

I definitely have doubts Greg would have been endgame. Plenty.

The show has been altered. The penultimate episode and the finale were re-written to put the emotional stakes on the Paula/Rebecca relationship and take the emphasis off Nathaniel/Rebecca. There's an entire Vulture article on it. Aline Josh McKenna reports that when she read the finale script to Bloom, Bloom was exhausted and could only report her feelings. "Blah, don't care, WTF, what does that even MEAN, etc." They recognized the problem was that the penultimate and finale were Nathaniel-centric emotionally, and, apparently, they thought it didn't work and wasn't worth caring about. They re-wrote everything, starting with "Trent", changed Paula's reaction to spying on Trent from enthusiastic to reluctant, and changed the song. They wanted to set it up so the big event in the finale was Paula and Rebecca's rift and not Nathaniel/Rebecca. In another article, Brosh McKenna said they also made changes because there was too much emphasis on Rebecca's love life and not her overall journey. 

I take the show at its word that it is a romantic comedy but not a love story. It is also clear that the show is working within limited time, limited budget, that the creators often verge on burnout, and the creators themselves say they don't often analyze once a decision has been made. I think this season they lost the forest for the trees, and only realized it at the end. They had less of a template for post-diagnosis Rebecca than they did for pre-diagnosis Rebecca, and it is basically a hustle for material. Nathaniel, IMO, is very easy, so they went there, recognized it was a mistake, and tried to re-set in the final two episodes, including a song that was Nathaniel/Rebecca bonding over not taking responsibility for their behavior. Out of the blue, we get a Nathaniel who has "learned" from Rebecca that nothing is his fault. That, too, is a change from the learning, growing, more vulnerable Nathaniel. We get a Nathaniel who breaks up with Mona the evening they celebrate moving into together, and who sings a song to Rebecca about how the reason he likes being with her is she makes immorality ok.

We have the show runners' own word about why that happened. Bloom is not the only show runner. Brosh McKenna writes and directs, and there are other writers. The Vulture article also made a big deal about how exhausted Bloom was, and how the narrative arc for the season happened. Brosh McKenna herself says she has to clear her head space for S4, knows that Rebecca needs to start again, but has no freaking idea what that will look like, just a general one about sort of where it will start. This is not always some master plan where they know every beat. They are often trying to catch up with themselves, and when that happens, they get conventional. I think they got extremely careless this season after Rebecca's diagnosis, not only as regards too much leaning into Nathaniel, but story fundamentals. One review said the show resorted to "Because I said so." story points too often. Another criticism I've been reading a lot is CEG not dealing with things - just hustling them off camera (such as no media reaction to Trent being pushed off a roof).

AllyB , the Trent as waiter thing bugged me as well. He is unimaginably wealthy, so that was a big tip off to the police. One review said the "Trent" episode and this finale were all beginning and end with no middle. It was completely result driven, and IMO, clearly showed that re-writes were inserted at the last minute.

I never felt Rebecca and Greg fit at all. Bloom has said the scene at Beans' party is the relationship in a nutshell, Rebecca giving Greg a handjob while pumping him (literally) for information about Josh.  There's all these tropes about how he was "smart" and she is "smart" as if that defines who she should be with. Rebecca is also wildly exuberant, still loves Raging Waters, I can see her as somebody who would still enjoy a "feminist pole dance", and who is NOT meant to be in the corporate world (Bloom has said that specifically - that Rebecca should not be a lawyer), who loves fantasy and self-expression, not as a extension of her illness, but as part of her personality. Greg was an underachieving, early 30s bartender - how that makes him a better fit, I have no idea. But most of all with Greg, I felt he was cerebral, that was who he naturally was. And Rebecca, for all her academic brilliance, is not fundamentally cerebral. She's physically and emotionally out there - that's her. It gets nuts when she's in the grip of illness, but I don't think the real her is self-contained and cerebral like Nathaniel and like Greg. My final takeaway on Greg, beyond my not enjoying Santino Fontana's acting very much, is he was bored out of his mind, didn't like or respect Rebecca very much, but did want to f*ck her. I don't know what his sex life was like before Rebecca, but he seemed obsessed with fucking her mostly for ego validation reasons. It verged on Nice Guy ickiness a few times, but I think CEG went out of its way to help out the character there and make sure it didn't go all the way into that.  I always felt he liked and respected Heather much more, but she didn't appeal to him sexually - and to his ego - as much as Rebecca. When he finally got himself to Emory, I completely believed it was such a total change from the first 30ish years of his life that he transformed. He was finally unstuck. He could be himself. I believe he actually tries at Emory and does well. I think he likes himself now and his girlfriend probably reflects that.

Edited February 19, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, whiporee said:

But I think it's unfair to point to writers and say they aren't following the creator's vision, because the person who oversees all of this is the creator.

I think what people are pointing out is that, in the past, both Bloom and McKenna have been pretty open about their intent for the show...upending romcom tropes and the notion of 'crazy' ex.  But one of their current stories, like the focus on Nathaniel, seems to be swerving right into those tropes they had intended to upend. 

You're right, what's on their screen is their responsibility and their vision but I think it's fair to point out that what we're seeing on screen isn't living up to their promised vision.

[possibilities]

In the scene where Rebecca confesses to Paula, Josh, and Nathanial, and Nathanial admits he was the one who was going to kill Josh's grandfather and have his dad deported, I thought that was really important to remind the viewers about, because even though Nathanial hasn't tried to commit suicide, or gotten caught in his BS the way Rebecca has, those are extremely horrible acts and he was going to follow through and do them until Rebecca stopped him. I think the show did a bad job of really emotionally investing the show in how bad a guy Nathanial is, but they did at least SAY it, and then reinforce it with that business at the jail about how nothing is their fault.

I'm glad to hear they realize the second half of the season was badly written and not well-planned, because I thought the writing and the execution were terrible.

Nathanial has been treated like the forelorn lovesick hot guy who truly loves Rebecca and is struggling with losing her... but he's actually got less morality than Rebecca and not just in small ways. He's never shown to have ANY consequences or ANY remorse. It's disturbing yet the show continues to flog him as cute.

I was relieved when they decided to stop making Valencia a one dimensional obstacle in season 1, but I feel they did the same thing with Mona, making her a bland distraction is season 3.

Disappointing.

Also, I totally agree that it was ridiculous that Darryl's first daughter was not present, or even mentioned, for her sister's birth.

[Eyes High]

16 hours ago, cailinoBAC said:

Oh God I don't know, I'm 6 months pregnant with my first and it terrified me! 

Eh, Heather's right: birth is beautiful if you get pain meds. I got an epidural, and to be honest most of my labour was, as Heather said, spent chilling and doing crossword puzzles while I watched one of the monitor register contractions that I never felt. If I had had a TV in the hospital room, I probably would have binge watched Top of the Lake, too. 

I will say that what cemented my decision to get an epidural was being stuck in that hospital room for hours and having to listen to the unearthly, gutwrenching screams of the women who had either refused pain meds or who had arrived at the hospital too far along to receive them. The miracle of birth indeed.

I think childbirth is pretty much like anything else in life, in that you go out of your mind worrying about things that never happen, and the crazy shit that does happen is stuff you never saw coming. If Paula's song had chronicled all the horrible things that can and often do go wrong during childbirth, as opposed to sticking to the horror show basics, it would have been an hour long.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Eyes High

[SusieQ]

7 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Eh, Heather's right: birth is beautiful if you get pain meds. I got an epidural, and to be honest most of my labour was, as Heather said, spent chilling and doing crossword puzzles while I watched one of the monitor register contractions that I never felt. If I had had a TV in the hospital room, I probably would have binge watched Top of the Lake, too. 

I will say that what cemented my decision to get an epidural was being stuck in that hospital room for hours and having to listen to the unearthly, gutwrenching screams of the women who had either refused pain meds or who had arrived at the hospital too far along to receive them. The miracle of birth indeed.

I had an epidural, too (at the advice of my doctor, who when I asked him what would he advise if I were his wife, he said "get it!").

However, when it came time to do the actual pushing the baby out, it sucked big time! So that epidural only goes so far. There's still plenty of pain to go around!

[DianeDobbler]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

In the scene where Rebecca confesses to Paula, Josh, and Nathanial, and Nathanial admits he was the one who was going to kill Josh's grandfather and have his dad deported, I thought that was really important to remind the viewers about, because even though Nathanial hasn't tried to commit suicide, or gotten caught in his BS the way Rebecca has, those are extremely horrible acts and he was going to follow through and do them until Rebecca stopped him. I think the show did a bad job of really emotionally investing the show in how bad a guy Nathanial is, but they did at least SAY it, and then reinforce it with that business at the jail about how nothing is their fault.

While criticizing the finale as saying the Paula/Rebecca stuff didn't feel as if it were the natural emotional core to their relationship, Entertainment Weekly goes on to say:

Quote

Though that scene is worthwhile in that it gives us the incredibly satisfying moment of Josh Chan punching Nathaniel square in the face. God, that was satisfying for some reason I can’t even put into words.

 

I felt the same way. Haven't analyzed it yet, but it was sort of a meta fuck you.

[HerkyJerky]

The best joke of the show was when Darryl said to Heather, "Are you having another Toni Braxton contraction?  Ahh, that breaks my heart!" LMAO!

[Cthulhudrew]

Okay, Trent was kind of scary this episode. Perhaps too much so (I find it hard to believe that he was really going to kill Nathaniel, but that's apparently what we are supposed to believe is actually the case for his character). 

As much as I enjoyed the Nathaniel/Rebecca song, I think that a) they have shown way too much of Nathaniel actually turning a different leaf to have this reversal of his character fundamentally understanding what Rebecca was bringing out in him, and b) I would rather have had Rebecca reject Nathaniel's "lessons learned" herself because she knew that he was getting it all wrong, and that that fundamental issue was all the reason the two of them wouldn't make a good pair (if that's really who Nathaniel is, then the two of them would just be feeding one another's less salient and scrupulous natures until the end of days), instead of having it have to be Paula who reminds her of it. It would have felt more like she actually grew as a person this season, rather than feeling like it was guilt over the state of her friendship with Paula that pushed her to the realization, to me. (Plus, it's not as if Paula is this wholesome, virtuous person that we've been led to believe over the last two episodes. The writers themselves have even acknowledged this.)

(I half expected that Paula wasn't even really there, but was a figment of Rebecca's conscience, and that the judge was going to let her off on an insanity plea when everyone started wondering who she was talking to. I'm still not entirely sure that S4 won't start with a Bobby Ewing shower scene.)

ETA: At least they could have shown Rebecca see all the faces of all her friends that have loved her even through all her craziness and had that combination of things motivate her to do the right thing, and not just pin it all on Paula.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Cthulhudrew

[Chicago Redshirt]

I know that we have to give actual law stuff on TV a little latitude, but this was a little extra.

I can't suspend disbelief over Nathaniel acting as Rebecca's lawyer. 

1. He's not a criminal defense attorney

2. He's got both a business and a personal relationship with her, each of which represent a conflict of interest.

3. He's a witness to the act itself.

As smart as both Rebecca and Nathaniel are, both should realize that it's a real bad idea for him to be her attorney in this.

The notion that Rebecca should plead guilty by reason of insanity is, well, insane.

There should be some level of objective proof that Trent sent her the messages threatening Nathaniel. 

There is objective proof that Trent was wearing a disguise.

There is objective proof that Trent isolated Nathaniel and was trying to get him to pay for condiments -- something the actual caterers didn't want, presumably -- when Rebecca came up.

There is objective proof that Trent had a big-ass knife. Even if Maya, George and Canadian Guy didn't see Trent with the knife, it had to land somewhere. 

The "Rebecca knocked Trent because she thought she was defending Nathaniel's life" theory makes way more sense than "Rebecca decided to crash Nathaniel's party, randomly found Trent in disguise standing over Nathaniel, and then pushed Trent for no particular reason meaning to kill him" theory.

[AllyB]

6 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Okay, Trent was kind of scary this episode. Perhaps too much so (I find it hard to believe that he was really going to kill Nathaniel, but that's apparently what we are supposed to believe is actually the case for his character). 

 

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There is objective proof that Trent had a big-ass knife. Even if Maya, George and Canadian Guy didn't see Trent with the knife, it had to land somewhere.

Trent wasn't trying to kill Nathaniel he was doing a 'sexy scary man' a mirror of Rebecca's 'sexy scary lady.' Rebecca made Josh think she was going to kill his mother and positioned herself by a big hole in the carnival so that when Josh confronted her, he'd push her in. Trent seemed to be doing the same. He was very careful to ensure he and Nathaniel were standing in the exact right spots even when they were already hidden from the crowd. He never intended to kill Nathaniel, he wanted Rebecca to get so scared she would push him in a way that would look like she wanted to kill him but he knew would land him in the pool.

Being arrested for a violent crime against an ex was the same fate she had planned for Josh. If Josh hadn't been so totally over Rebecca's antics and pulled her back to standing when she was teetering over the hole, he'd have ended up in a jail cell at the end of Josh's Ex-Girlfriend is Crazy. Trent won't be enjoying being back in a body cast, especially as he undoubtedly has the same bad comedian nurse as he did in his flashback. But he will be happy that she was arrested and charged with attempted murder, that was his end goal. Maybe Rebecca's speech in court will get back to him and he'll have a change of heart or maybe someone, anyone, will ask why this wealth Tech CEO was waiting at a party and the stupid charges against Rebecca will be dropped.

Either way, this was a terrible finale, imo. It might have worked better if the two Trent episodes hadn't happened back to back. Maybe if he'd shown up around episode 10 (before the time jump) and the emotional fallout between Paula and Rebecca had been at the centre of episode 11 and 12. Then Trent returning for the finale, and having more of the episode to make the parallels between his 'sexy scary man' and Rebecca's 'sexy scary lady' obvious, would have worked better. As even though it's on the nose, I love when they really go there and show Trent as Rebecca's mirror.

[txhorns79]

Quote

However, when it came time to do the actual pushing the baby out, it sucked big time! So that epidural only goes so far. There's still plenty of pain to go around!

It makes me long for the days of twilight sleep, where you just go into a quasi-daze, don't remember anything and suddenly wake up with a baby. 

I feel like the show itself has gone off a cliff.  I think the show has no clue what it wants to say, it got sidetracked by secondary storylines that weren't needed for the characters or the story (i.e. Daryl's baby) and things are just kind of a mess.  I'm interested to see how they get out of it, but was surprised by how such a good show lost its way.   

[DianeDobbler]

That's a great point, Cthulhudrew , that using Paula cuts both ways. Maybe the show runners thought the penultimate episode and finale didn't work with its heavy lean into Nathaniel, but when they pulled in and re-set Paula, it didn't play as Rebecca taking responsibility so much as Rebecca making another huge dramatic move because she cares about her friendship with Paula.

It would have been more significant if she and Paula were fine, but Rebecca on her own rejected Nathaniel's immoral reasoning.

A note: Crazy Ex Girlfriend, the concept, is Aline Brosh McKenna's story and vision. She came across Bloom's youtube videos, specifically the Disney Princess animation that upended all the Disney tropes. Brosh McKenna offered Bloom collaboration on CEG, which had been in her idea file for awhile. 

They worked together on a pitch and then a pilot. Obviously Bloom and McKenna share a sensibility and an awareness. Don't know if CEG would have been a musical if Bloom had not become the project's co-creator. Bloom has an idea for a B'way show that's hers, but she has said the CEG idea - exploding and exploring the reasons behind the CEG trope, is McKenna's. They have a notion about what her arc should look like, but no fixed "end game" that calls for a  particular romantic outcome. Brosh McKenna reiterates this in her end of season interview. One can see the problems in a romantic end game - a lot of people would see that as CEG affirming what it has spent 4 seasons deconstructing - that all you need is the right guy. CEG exists to destroy that premise. Not to say people don't need love and healthy relationships, but if the conclusion isn't done meticulously, it's going to come across as CEG betraying itself.

Edited February 18, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[DianeDobbler]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I feel like the show itself has gone off a cliff.  I think the show has no clue what it wants to say, it got sidetracked by secondary storylines that weren't needed for the characters or the story (i.e. Daryl's baby) and things are just kind of a mess.  I'm interested to see how they get out of it, but was surprised by how such a good show lost its way.

My take is they had no clear story to tell after she was diagnosed. It was filler until she gets better. So they're vamping for time. I read an old interview that said if the show continued on after she was better she would get better veeerrrrry slowwwwwly because if she's well, there's no show. The first two and half seasons, there was a very specific story.

I think they should have put more thought into her therapy, frankly. BPD is an interesting, frustrating disorder, and attracts some uncommon personality types as therapists. There is a woman one of my relatives works with who is just impossible as a human being, but succeeds because she has the stamina and persistence to work with this "population." I think it would have helped to take some time to ground us in what exactly Rebecca is meant to be doing during her recovery. How much of what she does is BPD, and how much her natural temperment? There's nothing wrong with being reserved, and nothing wrong with a natural exuberance and easy access to the inner child. More framework so we know the differnce between her BPD and her temperment would have certainly helped.

 Instead, whenever possible, they played her therapy for laughs - group therapy was always a big joke of Rebecca blowing it off. I never got a clear sense of what she was supposed to be doing in group. Before we make fun of it or mine it for comedy, I think we should know what it's actually supposed to be. Structure is essential for comedy. Prior to the second half of S3, I knew the structural purpose and grounding principle of every character in terms of the narrative, and the information we were meant to take on board.

Prior to midseason, and no matter whether people enjoyed that premise or not, everything Rebecca did was propelled by her illness. She was sad and anxious inside. CEG always played that beat, re-grounded CEG in that knowledge, and then off she'd go on another pursuit. The Josh pursuit was the gift that kept on giving, it could be written from so many angles. It kept CEG grounded even when it did side stories, and when I look back, IMO Vincent Rodriguez III did a much better job than he gets credit for. He could do the dumb ass, he could do the guy that brightened up the room and made everything happy, he could have the heartfelt conversation, and was as exuberant as Bloom in the musical numbers. He was a strong part of the machinery, IMO, and the Greg piece of it gave everything breathing room in the structural sense - it naturally helped "stretch things out." I think a Greg character in the Josh role would have been a wet blanket, and a lot of story beats wouldn't have made sense, but with a leading man who had a childlike spirit, there was a lot of leeway and a lot of twists that were possible.

The second half was very sloppy because all they're doing is having her get better verrry slowwwwwly without a clear rationale for existing besides that. The secondary stories were horrible, I agree. Darryl and the baby was the worst, Rebecca's love life was a mess of mixed messages. I also think they could have done more with her therapists - they don't all have to be saintly. Dr. Akopian has a nice edge to her, but is essentially supportive, Dr. Shin was a saint. It's not always so perfect in the therapeutic environment - there are bad fits, there are impatient therapists, etc., there are those patients don't like, personally, but who are effective.

Edited February 18, 2018 by DianeDobbler

[khyber]

Mr. Khyber was happy to see the season end. He's done, feeling its gotten "silly".  He was the one who started us watching the series but if there is a season 4, I will probably be watching alone.

[ahpny]

Quote

 

Well, I googled it, and Rebecca could still practice law in CA with a felony conviction-- but she'd have to provide proof of reform and rehabilitation. Gotta say-- I'm wondering if someone will figure out a way to get those instagram messages into evidence (or Trent's storage locker o' Rebecca stalking).

(and the fact that I'm trying to Law & Order this situation means the show is suffering from some message creep)

 

The procedure for disbarment differs in each state, but in real life, her California legal career would almost certainly be toast whether an attempted murder conviction arises from a plea or a judicial determination. Nevertheless, with some jail time, opportunities for “Chicago”-inspired song choices could abound.

[KingOfHearts]

14 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The "Rebecca knocked Trent because she thought she was defending Nathaniel's life" theory makes way more sense than "Rebecca decided to crash Nathaniel's party, randomly found Trent in disguise standing over Nathaniel, and then pushed Trent for no particular reason meaning to kill him" theory.

That whole case was screwy. Where's the investigation? Don't these kind of things going through a process? Suddenly, Nathaniel is going to be representing her and the next scene is the court room? Shouldn't they be trying to find evidence? What about Trent's lawyer? It's not nearly as open-and-shut as this show would want us to believe. 

Edited February 18, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[DianeDobbler]

KingofHearts , every TV show I've ever seen skips the period of discovery, the hearings as to the extent of discovery, all the prep before you even get to trial. They skip the motions to dismiss. Every single show. A crime is committed and then it seems that the legal teams frantically try to come up with their case before they are rushed into court, as if a trial or judgment hearing is set immediately after a crime. That's not how it works. Most of the legal process is case prep. 

Here's a mixed message about Nathaniel that I found very poorly done in the finale. Rebecca confesses she went to the dark web to put a hit out on Mona. As far as we know, she didn't explain that she was cuckoo due to excessive hormone intake, so as far as Nathaniel knows, this is just something she did. And she only "thinks" she managed to call it off. She was cavalier during the entire thing. It only got bad when Paula reacted badly. (And isn't it kind of weird that everybody only reacted to the stuff she did to them?)

There's a follow up scene when Nathaniel rushes home to look for Mona, and is relieved that she's safe, and in the shower. So his mind isn't at ease that the hit isn't out there somewhere. But then he gets back together with the woman who put Mona in danger, and Mona might still be in danger.  So I don't understand his rushing home to check on Mona at all.

Edited February 18, 2018 by DianeDobbler