S01.E03: Silver Smile

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Innovative evidence leads the team to discover a crucial element in the case has gone missing. Kreizler and Moore interview a witness to find out what happened to Moore at the Brothel. Sara attempts to live in a world outside the investigation. Kreizler challenges them to look within themselves.

[eejm]

It seems that Kreizler surrounds himself with "broken" people - Mary killed her father, Cyrus killed a man who was beating a woman, John has been rejected by a fiancee, father, and dead brother, and Sarah?  Well, something seems to be going on in her past as well.  I'd like to know what's lurking in Kreizler's history since he seems to be so interested in everyone else's secrets.  

Is it just me, or did we just sort of breeze past whatever happened to John in the brothel?

Re: Sarah's old roommate - I think Sarah probably already knows what it's like to "do it."  

What in the hell is up with the killer that he seems to be able to fly and slither through weird places?

[pezgirl7]

5 minutes ago, eejm said:

Re: Sarah's old roommate - I think Sarah probably already knows what it's like to "do it."  

Really? I don't get that impression at all. I think she's has little to no experience with men. That's why she as so flattered by Laszlo last episode, and didn't really know what to do when John kissed her. Also, her friend assumed that Sara would be disappointed in her for getting engaged, so we can assume Sara doesn't care much about marriage.

If John really was raped, and they're just gonna breeze over it, and never mention it again, I will be very disappointed. That's not something to be taken lightly. I'm hoping Captain Connor is only assuming what happened. John didn't seem to show any pain.

Do you guys think the wealthy couple in the beginning are the parents of the murderer? I'm thinking it could be a red herring, and Willem is not the murderer, but the police are assuming he is and are trying to cover for him because they're getting paid to cover up his indiscretions.

John really has bad luck with women, but it's amusing to watch!

[Neurochick]

I don’t think John was raped, I think the police wanted to make it look like something happened.  

I liked this episode because it showed how alienated these people are.  John seemed like he didn’t belong at his grandmothers set up; Sara seemed like he didn’t belong at that party, and then there’s Cyrus and Mary (and Stevie too).  None of these people are the “cool kids “ of the time, they’re outsiders.

[scarletine]

6 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

Do you guys think the wealthy couple in the beginning are the parents of the murderer? I'm thinking it could be a red herring, and Willem is not the murderer, but the police are assuming he is and are trying to cover for him because they're getting paid to cover up his indiscretions.

I'm just trying to figure out if that is Sean Young playing the wife, but I didn't catch their name, and can't find any mention of her in the cast on IMDB. Not knowing is making me crazy...it looks so much like her.

I was unhappy with the direction of Moore's character the first couple of episodes, but he seems to adhering more to the book character this episode. I hope that continues. All in all, I thought this episode moved the story along nicely. 

[pezgirl7]

5 minutes ago, scarletine said:

I'm just trying to figure out if that is Sean Young playing the wife, but I didn't catch their name, and can't find any mention of her in the cast on IMDB. Not knowing is making me crazy...it looks so much like her.

Yes, that was her. She was at the NYC premiere of the show. Her character is Mrs. Van Bergen.

Edited February 6, 2018 by pezgirl7

[Neurochick]

Is there something wrong with me?  I think Kreizler is hot.

[eejm]

1 minute ago, Neurochick said:

Is there something wrong with me?  I think Kreizler is hot.

Smart, intuitive, a bit brooding, and with the looks of Daniel Bruhl?  No, there's nothing wrong with you.

[Hazel55]

Best episode yet. 

I think after an unevenly paced first episode and a somewhat slow paced second episode, they finally got the pacing down perfectly in this one. There was also some good comic relief, with Marcus's comment re: John coming home without pants ("It happens to the best of us!") to John's inability to even feign interest in the nice girl his granny bought home for him ("And that's how it went, Madeline!" "It's Caroline." "Oh.... riiiiiight.")

The characterization also seemed better integrated into the action in this episode, so that varying shades of the characters personalities were introduced in the midst of events, rather than having events stalled to flesh out the characters. The characterization was also a lot subtler in this episode then it has been in the past; I felt they did a better job of showing, rather than telling. Kreitzler's talk with Cyrus and his freak out with John and Sarah was a far better way of revealing his personal complexity than that long speech in the first episode was. ("I must become him... even if it takes me to the gates of hell!" etc.) And Sarah's Vassar reunion with all of her friends showcased the fact that she was a strong woman nevertheless besieged with anxieties and fears better than her speeches have in the past. 

I am finally feeling sorry for John. My heart broke for him when the gang were all standing around him after he'd been roofied, and they were looking at him only half sympathetically, half questioningly. As though he'd just gotten drunk, dropped trough, and totally gotten himself into this situation by his own volition. And then his feeble objection, "It's not what you think!" With all of his pals yet again giving him the side eye, all "Yeah, okay. I'm sure it's not, buddy. Right." Poor guy. The part where his grandmother tried to hook him up with the girl whose name he couldn't remember also unexpectedly pulled at my heart strings. 

I also loved getting more of Cyrus and Mary. Robert Wisdom was fantastic, and Qoiana Kilcher was brilliantly intense. Kilcher is especially managing to somehow build this incredibly strong, nuanced, and very human base to a character who has only had a handful of scenes and who does not speak. I loved the scene between Kreitzler and Mary; not only was there chemistry amazing, the two managed to convey a  familiar intimacy between these two character who have apparently lived and worked together for years. 

The subtlety of the scene in which Sarah sits with John in the carriage after Kreitzler blows up at them was also excellent. Clearly, she was upset about her father. But I think she was also quite upset, and taken off guard, by the fact that Kreitzler clearly has deep romantic feelings for Mary. Though Sarah is hardly going to be the type to spend future episodes pining away in disappointment that Kreitzler doesn't love her, I think that his interest in her and their brief flirtation in the carriage after their dinner last week had "gotten her hopes up" with regards to a possible romantic future with the doctor. Not that she was planning to marry him; but I think there was a fascination that went all the way around to romantic interest on her part, and that, up until that part, she had assumed that it was mutual. Kreitzler's reaction to Mary in that scene made her realize that it wasn't, and I think that it was that, and not just Kreitzler's reminding her of her father's suicide, was what caused her upset reaction in the carriage. 

Not enough of the Isaacons, though. 

That rich family with the (it was implied) creepy pedophile son was effectively creepy. 

Edited February 6, 2018 by Hazel55

[scarletine]

5 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

Yes, that was her. She was at the NYC premiere of the show. Her character is Mrs. Van Bergen.

Thanks so much!

5 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Is there something wrong with me?  I think Kreizler is hot.

I'm more for Moore, but yeah, Kreizler is growing on me. 

[blackwing]

I'm afraid that I am losing interest.  I want to like this show so badly because I am a sucker for anything historical.  But I am finding it hard.  I feel like the show is trying way too hard.  I think part of the problem for me is Luke Evans.  I can't stand his character.

And I must be dense because I have a hard time figuring out what is going on.  I have to find a recap the next day.

[TiffanyNichelle]

I find myself wishing they had added a voice over. Someone to narrate and explain things so that we don't have scenes where Sarah has to explain to John about Castle Clinton being changed from an immigration station to a new aquarium. Something I think he would have known.  Also I don't know why you even keep the character of John Moore if he's basically going to be useless most of the time.

[tennisgurl]

Kreizler really does surround himself with messed up people, doesn't he? I had to almost laugh at how blunt he was in that last scene with Sarah. "How do you deal with dad killing himself? John drinks to deal with being dumped, his asshole dad, and his dead brother, whats your deal?" just right out there. It did all work really well there though, lots of good character beats. I also liked the scenes with him and Cyrus, and he and Mary in his house together. I feel like the show is starting to really find its feet, and get its character dynamics more and more. 

Poor John. Everyone just assumes he got drunk again and messed around and laughed about it, and not rofied and...something I dont know what, but it was nothing good. He seemed quite shaken up by the whole thing, and they had to have had some kind of plan there, so I guess that will all come back. The guy also apparently has no luck with women he likes, and no interest in the women his family tries to throw at him. 

I continue to enjoy seeing the changes in police investigation, as well as things we can identify. It really is funny seeing fingerprinting as some kind of weird far fetched scientific curiosity that was half fortune telling, half forensic, considering what a seemingly obvious part of police work it is now. The politics behind the cops are also interesting, and you KNOW its all going to play into actually catching this creep. If the weird rich pedophile isn't the killer he sure as hell is scary, and seems very predatory, even if he isn't the killer. 

It was sad when Sally said how they could tell who they could trust as a "client" because they've been at it so long, as Sally is probably only around, what, 15? Messed up. I also enjoyed seeing a few chinks in Sarah's armor, as it makes her more human, and not a Strong Independent Woman who has no feelings beyond tough and basically nice. She felt lonely and anxious at her college reunion (complete with the classic "yeah, I totally have a boyfriend... to the engaged friend), frightened at the gruesome crime scene, and disturbed thinking about her dead father and her own feelings towards it. It makes her more interesting and sympathetic, especially as she carries on. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Linda from Peaky Blinders and Susan Ross' mother - worlds are colliding!

Wow, that whole conversation with Caroline, her mother, John, and Mrs. Ross was the very definition of awkward.

I found it interesting that Lazlo employs not one but TWO murderers. For some people, being a murderer might be considered a negative on a job application but apparently he finds it to be a pro when hiring his household staff.

9 hours ago, scarletine said:

I'm just trying to figure out if that is Sean Young playing the wife, but I didn't catch their name, and can't find any mention of her in the cast on IMDB. Not knowing is making me crazy...it looks so much like her.

 

9 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:

Yes, that was her. She was at the NYC premiere of the show. Her character is Mrs. Van Bergen.

On IMDB, her character is listed as Willem's mother.

[Kirsty]

10 hours ago, Hazel55 said:

Best episode yet.

Agreed.

Does Captain Connor's remark mean that mean John was raped, though he has no memory of it? Jesus.

I loved John's grandmother jumping when the telephone rang! People still do that, especially older people.

10 hours ago, Hazel55 said:

I loved the scene between Kreitzler and Mary; not only was there chemistry amazing, the two managed to convey a  familiar intimacy between these two character who have apparently lived and worked together for years. 

Right? It does look like Laszlo's most intimate relationship is with Mary. And I agree that Kilcher's ability to do so much with so little is impressive.

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I also enjoyed seeing a few chinks in Sarah's armor, as it makes her more human, and not a Strong Independent Woman who has no feelings beyond tough and basically nice. She felt lonely and anxious at her college reunion (complete with the classic "yeah, I totally have a boyfriend... to the engaged friend), frightened at the gruesome crime scene, and disturbed thinking about her dead father and her own feelings towards it. It makes her more interesting and sympathetic, especially as she carries on. 

I totally agree and came here to say the same. This episode made both Sara and Laszlo seem more human, which was a pleasant surprise. It went further than that with Laszlo. Showing him getting into a huff over a stain on his shirt (or maybe frustration with his bad arm?) made him human, which was lovely. But pressing Cyrus on what it felt like to kill; humiliating Mary in front of Sara and John; and then pressing Sara on what was presumably the worst thing to ever happen to her... what a jerk.

It would have helped, in his final scene with Sara and John, if he had at least confessed his own coping methods and his own problems first. But no! He's too special to share. It made me agree with John in the carriage about the impertinence of asking. Unfortunately, John is usually this show's voice of stuffy propriety, so I'm not sure the show agrees with me that Laszlo's ends don't justify his being an arsehole.

The weakest scene in the episode for me was the one between Laszlo and Sara in the first half, when she told him the body had been taken from the morgue. I don't know whether it's both actors' weaknesses compounding each other, or maybe it's two stiff, weirdo characters coming off stiff and weird. It all seemed so whispery and unnatural, like Dr. Cornylines meets Miss Fake Actress.

I thought the setting of this latest crime scene was great. The show looks good, though the flashes of light in this episode got tiresome.

[Morrigan2575]

speaking of Lazlo's bad arm. Did they use some CGI or was it a camera trick? I swear his bad SRM looked significantly thinner than his good arm.

[libgirl2]

you would think John would remember or know he was raped. They did kind of skim over that. Maybe it will come back at another time? 

 

The killer almost seems like a shadow. 

[sjohnson]

It may seem odd, but Mary's insistence on *significant looks* struck me as innuendo about Kreizler aimed more at the witnesses. Which would be the equivalent of John Moore leering at Sarah in front of strangers, I think. The only time it didn't seem like that, part of the shirt scene, I didn't perceive Kreizler to be angry or superior. 

Oddly enough, since I happen to think profiling isn't very accurate and not very helpful, Kreizler's fumbling seems much more forgivable to me in a period setting. 

The interest in the mechanics of the crimes is not misplaced. You don't find locked room mysteries in real life because it's the solution that conclusively identifies the killer. The technical requirements strike names off the suspect list. It's death in the open, where anybody or his brother could have done the deed that are hard to solve. 

The description "silver smile" is almost certainly inspired by something behavioral. Kreizler should have been interested in that. 

They don't care what happened with Moore because they despise him. Even Sarah, who has some favorable feelings for him, felt more comfortable pretending she was interested in a doctor.

Weak on plot developments I thought. But very, very good on society, which is plenty good enough to make this worth while watching. The old HBO series Rome was the same way. It too was hugely underrated.

My opinions only.

[rove4]

13 hours ago, eejm said:

What in the hell is up with the killer that he seems to be able to fly and slither through weird places?

Maybe it's Tooms.  :-)

[pezgirl7]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

speaking of Lazlo's bad arm. Did they use some CGI or was it a camera trick? I swear his bad SRM looked significantly thinner than his good arm.

Yes, it was CGI. His arm looked very withered with the muscles underdeveloped, almost like he had polio. In the Inside the Episode clip, Daniel said that Laszlo probably didn't have much experience with women, and that in that scene with Mary he kind of turns into a teenager who doesn't know how to act. He also said that Mary is one of the only people who is able to calm him down, which you could see.

Thinking about it some more, I do think that Willem could be the killer, because Sally had said that Gloria had a rich client with a silver smile that visited her a lot, and that he was with her the night she went missing. And we know Willem is also a rich client who favored Gloria, so I'm thinking they're the same person. Which just totally sucks that the police have been covering up all his crimes. And both his parents really seem like a piece of work, so who knows what happened to him, probably as a child, to make him the way he is. Very curious to know how he got his climbing skills too. And the one boy that was recently killed remarked that there was something wrong with the killer's mouth, so I'm picturing a mouth full of silver dentures, which is even creepier.

[libgirl2]

Yes, I figured the silver are dentures of some sort 

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:

Yes, it was CGI. His arm looked very withered with the muscles underdeveloped, almost like he had polio. 

Thanks. I think that's a really cool touch to keep a realistic look/feel.

2 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:

Thinking about it some more, I do think that Willem could be the killer, because Sally had said that Gloria had a rich client with a silver smile that visited her a lot, and that he was with her the night she went missing.

They are certainly dropping enough hints, like the boy who asked what's wrong with your mouth...or something to that effect

It could call be a red herring, pretty sure we got a glimpse of William in the bath house. So either he's the killer and the corrupt cops are covering it up. Or he's a red herring and the corrupt cops trying to protect him masking the real killer.

I think I prefer the second option

Edited February 6, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[emma675]

I really enjoy this show, but I will admit to having trouble seeing and even hearing the dialogue clearly sometimes (and I have good eyesight and hearing, I swear!). It's hard to make out some scenes when it's at night and the backgrounds are grey and brown and Kreisler and Sara specifically either seem to mumble or speak so fast I can't always make out what they are saying.  I had no idea Kreisler had a bad arm up until last night; I don't really remember him favoring one arm before and the scene where he's removing his shirt is so shadowy I had to pause to make sure I was really seeing it.

I do like how complicated and nuanced the characters are becoming, even the secondary ones. Kreisler seems to relish analyzing and emotionally dissecting everyone around him but I wonder how much he'd enjoy doing it to himself. I wish Sara had snapped back when he asked her how she dealt with her father's death but it actually made me care about her more than she didn't or was unable to. It felt very realistic.

I would have felt bad for John when he woke up unable to remember what had happened to him and with friends who just seemed to think he was on a bender, but he's been drinking and visiting brothels enough for it to almost become his reputation, so I get why his friends reacted that way. Of course they will feel terrible when the truth comes out (and I'm interested to see how it does, you know that crime boss has some kind of blackmail material on John from that night) but John has created a history for himself that made their reactions understandable.

[pezgirl7]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I could call be a red herring, pretty sure we got a glimpse of William know the bath house. So either he's the killer and the corrupt cops are covering it up. Or he's a red herring and the corrupt cops trying to protect him are making the real killer.

I think I prefer the second option

I thought at first it would surely be a red herring, because it would be strange to give away the identity of the killer in only the third episode. But even if the killer is Willem, we only know his name, that he comes from money and has very detached parents. There's still a lot to learn about him, and to see how Kreitzler's team discovers his identity.

What did you all think about Sara seeing a younger version of herself in the mirror? I didn't think it was really necessary, but I guess it did drive home that she stills sees herself as a child in some way. Maybe unsure and alone.

[meep.meep]

I went to Vassar for one year - there was a dorm where they were all obsessed with playing Murder.

I don't get half of what's going on here.   

[WhatsUpDummy]

17 hours ago, blackwing said:

I'm afraid that I am losing interest.  I want to like this show so badly because I am a sucker for anything historical.  But I am finding it hard.  I feel like the show is trying way too hard.  I think part of the problem for me is Luke Evans.  I can't stand his character.

And I must be dense because I have a hard time figuring out what is going on.  I have to find a recap the next day.

Try Vulture or AVclub.  They both do decent recaps.  

[BingeyKohan]

This episode won me all the way over. Of all the mirthful bits amid the gloom for some reason the line that actually made me laugh was Moore saying Mary had to try more than once to set her father on fire. 

So Buffalo Byrnes is some kind of Olivia Pope for rich homicidal pedophiles? That is twisted. And speaking of Silence of the Lambs refs they’re implying Kreizler invented quid pro quo!

I can’t tell what we’re supposed to think happened to Moore. I could see the cop at the beginning just making an off color joke consistent with his views of homosexual practice, or trying to get the story out there that Moore was violated just to sully his name. Moore only accused Sally of emptying his wallet, and Sally seems the type who would have enjoyed refreshing his memory.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

[MaggieG]

Wow, I really should pay more attention when I watch, I totally missed Lazlo's arm. I'm still enjoying the show, but it slows down for me when the show the police. I'm way more interested in the investigation aspect with Lazlo, John and Sarah. The twins are cool too.

[libgirl2]

3 hours ago, MaggieG said:

Wow, I really should pay more attention when I watch, I totally missed Lazlo's arm. I'm still enjoying the show, but it slows down for me when the show the police. I'm way more interested in the investigation aspect with Lazlo, John and Sarah. The twins are cool too.

We missed it too. 

[AnnieHeights]

Does anyone think the character John Moore looks like Clark Gable?

[millennium]

On 2/5/2018 at 10:47 PM, Neurochick said:

I don’t think John was raped, I think the police wanted to make it look like something happened.  

 

Not just the police, but the writers, too.   The brothel owners brought in a couple of the boys and instructed them to get to work.   The last we saw, they were advancing on the unconscious Moore like the wives of Dracula.  

Then in a later scene Chief Connor strongly implies Moore was gang-raped.   And Moore's friends reveal he was discovered without his trousers.

If Moore was not raped (and his demeanor afterwards suggests he wasn't), then what exactly was the point of the brothel owners instructing the brothel boys?   It would make sense if they had staged a compromising photo of Moore for the purpose of blackmail but so far nothing like that has been introduced.

Edited February 8, 2018 by millennium

[thuganomics85]

This episode was all about bring up the classic social awkwardness scenarios!  First, you've got Moore pretty much on a blind date that was not only set-up by his grandma, but then she and the girl's mother sit along with them, and watch as he makes a fool of himself.  Then, Sara gets to go to a reunion of some kind, and find out that she's the only single person in the entire room.  Some things never change!

Glad we got more insight into Cyrus and Mary.  So, both of them were actually former patients of Laszlo, and are loyal to him because of how he helped them.  Crazy that both had killed someone.  It certainly sounded like Cyrus victim was no saint (beating up a woman), but I wonder what Mary's father ended up doing that she went as far as to burn him alive.  I do think there is clearly some kind of thing going on between Laszio and Mary, which is why he got all huffy and embarrassed when she surprised him at his office.  Of course he had to be a dick about it, but I guess every Daniel Bruhl character is required to be a dick on some levels!

While I'm still not wild about the actor playing Roosevelt, I am intrigued over the hostilities between him and the rest of the force, and how much more in the opening it's becoming (especially with Connors.)  And Ted Levine's character is so going to keep sticking his nose in this despite being "retired." 

Unless Connors was just talking shit, it sounded like Moore was actually raped, so I'm surprised it's been glossed over.  But it looks like he really did loose his memories, so maybe it's going to be one of those cases were everything is slowly revealed throughout each episode.

Good episode.  Really getting into it now.

[pezgirl7]

7 hours ago, millennium said:

If Moore was not raped (and his demeanor afterwards suggests he wasn't), then what exactly was the point of the brothel owners instructing the brothel boys?   It would make sense if they had staged a compromising photo of Moore for the purpose of blackmail but so far nothing like that has been introduced.

Perhaps they just disrobed him and smeared makeup on his face, to shame him so he wouldn't visit again. At least that's what I'm hoping happened. I doubt Connor would actually want to stick around and watch John be raped, so perhaps he's just assuming what happened.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

9 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I wonder what Mary's father ended up doing that she went as far as to burn him alive. 

I was guessing that he either molested her or was abusive with her mom or sister. You have to really hate someone to set them on fire more than once.

[MamaMax]

I was distracted by how beautiful Mary is.  I always wonder with shows like this, why is everyone so gorgeous?

[Morrigan2575]

15 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I was guessing that he either molested her or was abusive with her mom or sister. You have to really hate someone to set them on fire more than once.

Yeah, definitely abuse of some sort. I also wondered if he did something to make her mute. Maybe cut her tongue out or damage her voice box?

[millennium]

On 2/6/2018 at 11:58 AM, sjohnson said:

 

The description "silver smile" is almost certainly inspired by something behavioral. Kreizler should have been interested in that. 

 

I'm not so sure.   In what looked like either a flashback or a dream sequence from the killer's perspective (I forget which episode), one of the boys looks at him and says "What's wrong with your mouth?"

[Hazel55]

On 2/8/2018 at 6:14 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Unless Connors was just talking shit, it sounded like Moore was actually raped, so I'm surprised it's been glossed over. 

I've gotta say: if Moore was really raped, than at this point this has to go down as one of the most insensitive handlings of this subject ever portrayed on a TV show. 

Not only has the psychological aftermath for Moore been entirely skipped over, the whole things been played for laughs ("You were found wandering the streets... without your trousers! Hey, it happens to the best of us!" Oh, the crazy hijinks!), and then John Moore apparently doesn't even notice (??) the physical aftermath of a violent gang rape on his own body. Furthermore, the portrayal of a bunch of exploited child sex workers (some of them possibly transgender, according to comments by the show writers) as a horde of vicious rapists is offensive in the extreme. 

So I'd say that due to these factors, I'm highly doubting that an actual rape happened at this point. (Again, in addition to everything else, someone who has been sexually assaulted by numerous people not feeling any physical effects the next day is not only unbelievable, its ridiculous.) After all, in order to ruin John's "standing in society" the men don't need something sexual to happen between John and the boys; they just need to make it look like something did. 

On 2/8/2018 at 2:54 PM, millennium said:

Not just the police, but the writers, too.   The brothel owners brought in a couple of the boys and instructed them to get to work.   The last we saw, they were advancing on the unconscious Moore like the wives of Dracula.  

Then in a later scene Chief Connor strongly implies Moore was gang-raped.   And Moore's friends reveal he was discovered without his trousers.

If Moore was not raped (and his demeanor afterwards suggests he wasn't), then what exactly was the point of the brothel owners instructing the brothel boys?   It would make sense if they had staged a compromising photo of Moore for the purpose of blackmail but so far nothing like that has been introduced.

 

I think staging a compromising photo was exactly what they did. And here's why. 

First, a lot of people have objected that cameras were still new technology, and a rarity at the time. There's no way, people have said, that a brothel would have a camera on hand. 

But I say these people should try taking a look at pornographic post cards from back in the victorian era. (Or... not literally, because that would be gross. But just keep in mind that they existed.) One of the first and most common uses for cameras, in addition to society portraits and science photos, was actually porn. Certain brothels kept them on hand sometimes, for clients whose preferences went that way. It would not be shocking if Pariesis Hall, which seems to cater to a very wealthy niche clientele, had a camera on hand somewhere.

In order to acquire leverage over Moore in the future, they could easily go retrieve it, then snap some compromising photos. That would be better than staging a full rape, which would be just a matter of their word against his, anyway. And a rich guy like Moore might actually press charges, which would open a whole other can of worms. Though Connor seems like a dummy, mostly driven by lust and greed, both Paul Kelly and Byrnes seem considerably brighter. They may well have cooked up such a plan. 

Which brings me to my second point: Connor, and his comments in the bar. I think that its clear that of the three men assembled in that bar, Connor is by far the dumbest. Perhaps he had the "brilliant" idea to have John Moore violated in some way by the boys. But perhaps the considerably savvier Paul Kelly and Byrnes got wind of it, and substituted his plan with a far smarter one. Which they put into play after Connor exited. 

That would explain Connor's apparent belief that John was raped, as well as the significant look that Kelly and Byrnes shared between them after Connor's crude comment about John not being able to sit for a week. Their look was pretty blatant, anad seemed to say, "Yeah, that's what you (Connor) think. But that's not what happened."
Anyway, I see no reason for that fairly blatant look between Kelly and Conor in the bar, unless they are privy to some knowledge about what happened to John that Connor is not. Either that, or the two's significant glance between Connor's comments about "Sodomites" was meant to imply that Kelly and Byrnes are secretly gay lovers, which would be a move both utterly random and so sublimely subversive it would literally break the TV set. But I doubt the writers are going that route. 

Just my two cents.

Edited February 10, 2018 by Hazel55

[Timetoread]

On 2/5/2018 at 10:53 PM, Neurochick said:

Is there something wrong with me?  I think Kreizler is hot.

No.   Something about uber intense men that is captivating.

[Lilly77]

I only think Kreizler is hot when he's in a scene with Mary.  Talk about chemistry.

I am fascinated by the layers of their clothing, such as when he was taking off his shirt.  The corsets were terrible for Sara of course, but those starchy pinned on collars, the tie thingy, the shirts, waistcoats and jackets can't have been all that comfortable to wear either.  They must have been dreadfully hot at times.  I guess it would all encourage good posture as slouching would cut off either breathing or blood supply.

I am really struggling waiting for a single episode week to week.  I really want to see what happens next straight away!  

[AAEBoiler]

This show is just too dark ... and I mean that literally. It's really hard to see anything at all during the night scenes. I had no idea what was happening at the end of the episode when apparently a page was taken from the folder. What was up with that?

[smartymarty]

So who called in the murder? The boy was in a very remote area and up on a roof. One could only know of it from going into the castle and looking up. Did the murderer call it in, or is this a plot fail?

I don't care for Kreizler at all. Too dull. All of the characters are dull to me. I'm having trouble liking this show, but my husband liked the book so we're watching.

[sugarbaker design]

On 2/13/2018 at 8:57 AM, AAEBoiler said:

This show is just too dark ... and I mean that literally. It's really hard to see anything at all during the night scenes. I had no idea what was happening at the end of the episode when apparently a page was taken from the folder. What was up with that?

In order to get the full effect, this is a show that must be watched in the dark, I turn off my living room lights.  

On 2/13/2018 at 12:23 PM, smartymarty said:

So who called in the murder? The boy was in a very remote area and up on a roof. One could only know of it from going into the castle and looking up. Did the murderer call it in, or is this a plot fail?

This is the third episode of a ten-episode series.  I'm going to give it time, I believe this will be resolved.

[Calamity Jane]

21 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

In order to get the full effect, this is a show that must be watched in the dark, I turn off my living room lights.  

This is the third episode of a ten-episode series.  I'm going to give it time, I believe this will be resolved.

This seems to be a growing trend, filming TV shows more like movies, and to see them well, you really need to view them the way movies are viewed, in the dark.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Clip - corruption in the police department:

[Reality police]

Re-watching this episode i saw something I missed. As they were leaving the crime scene, John drops his notebook. The man hiding in the rafters (I assume the killer) picks it up and looks at the drawing. Next we see the notebook, Connor turns it in to TR. Did the killer leave it behind or is there a connection between him and Conner? Am I paranoid at this point?

[Neurochick]

I believe that the killer left it behind, when the police were searching the building.  I think we see Conner pick it up.

Edited March 18, 2018 by Neurochick

[marybennet]

Not sure if I was seeing right (I watched the episode on my phone, which meant everything looked tiny), but I think the killer looked at it and maybe even tore out a page and then dropped it, which I guess means Conor found it later.  It was all done very mysteriously, the better to make us wonder about all this.

[pezgirl7]

On 3/17/2018 at 12:06 AM, Reality police said:

Re-watching this episode i saw something I missed. As they were leaving the crime scene, John drops his notebook. The man hiding in the rafters (I assume the killer) picks it up and looks at the drawing. Next we see the notebook, Connor turns it in to TR. Did the killer leave it behind or is there a connection between him and Conner? Am I paranoid at this point?

The killer only took one or two drawings from it, but left the notebook behind. I don't think we ever saw Connor pick it up.