Figure Skating

[Growsonwalls]

A lot of Michelle Kwan's problems during her skating career came from financial pressures her family was under. Frank Carroll is rather notorious for the way he goes after parents for bills. Her parents were not wealthy and as a result she signed up for skating shows/tours and also endorsed a pair of boots that caused a stress fracture. She was under enormous pressure because her family had sacrificed so much. Rumor has it that the final break with Frank Carroll came over some financial disagreement.  

[blackwing]

39 minutes ago, Mumbles said:

I guess the young'uns don't remember the delightful Carruthers sibs who won Silver in pairs (not dancing but same idea re "connecting") at the 1984 Olympics. IIRC, the best showing by any American pair since. 

A few Olympics ago there was a sib dancing team from the UK named the Carpenters (not Karen and Richard thank goodness) who were also delightful.

See, I think there is a difference, so maybe I am part of the problem.  To me, pairs is more physical, it's about the big man being able to lift and throw his small partner in the air, and about her being able to do the twists and jumps.  And about them being in sync on spins and side by side jumps and able to each do the jumps.  Whereas with Dance there is much more of a "dancing partner" feel and it seems to me there is more artistry involved.

I don't understand why the Shibutanis can't do a "regular" dance and dance like the others.  Why can't the dance just show sibling affection?  Brothers and sisters will waltz together at weddings.  It doesn't mean they want to sleep with each other.  I think the Shibs hold themselves back, they definitely seem to connote this "ewwwe I'm dancing with my brother/sister" vibe.  If that's the case, they should have gone into pairs.  

Which brings me back to my question some pages back about how a coach can identify in a young boy skater whether he is going to be in pairs or dance.  Many of the pairs men seem tall and strong whereas many dance men seem small and slight.  How can you tell at such an early age how big and strong a young boy skater will grow up to be?

Edited February 13, 2018 by blackwing

[Chaser]

I'm so glad I found this board. Reading thru these posts really reminded me of how much I used to love following figure skating. And how much it would piss me off.

Regarding V/M v D/W at the 2010 Olympics, what stuck me was the points spread. All season long their overall was generally pretty close. V/M won the Olympics by a pretty big margin. Not to say I thought the win wasn't deserved, but I felt the home town advantage.

I would have loved to see what D/W could have brought to the competition if they really went for it.

Oh Sasha. I loved her skating. She had some of my favorite programs and I honestly thought she was the perfect skater when she was on...sadly that was a rare occurrence. I remember Dick Button saying in regards to her that there is no greater burden then potential. She couldn't handle it.

I thought my dislike of Scott Moir was an unpopular opinion and it's kind of nice to know I'm not alone. Same with Patrick Chan.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Chaser

[HartofDixie]

2 hours ago, galaxygirl76 said:

Does anyone think the North Korean pair has a shot at a medal?

They do not but I am happy to watch them compete.  I watched 4CC and they have potential.

[sweeks]

Jaded - Thank you for posting Paul Wylie's 1992 Olympic LP! I was just getting into watching figure skating during the 1992 Olympics and somehow missed Wylie's performance. Watching this gave me chills. I remember seeing Wylie in many a Stars on Ice and enjoying his skating, but this gave me a whole new appreciation for him (the effective use of Henry V definitely enhanced the experience).

Edited February 13, 2018 by sweeks
The quoted video wouldn't load

[herbz]

I think people are referring to the Kerrs? Not as good technically as the Shibs, but brilliant performers. They did the most joyful Scottish dance which was horribly undermarked by the judges: 

 

I'd feel more for the Shibs if I ever saw them skate with real abandon like this (I only ever got it with Fix You). They shouldn't be criticised for not being able to do romance, obviously, but outside of that I do think they still have limitations as performers. 

[Avaleigh]

31 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

A lot of Michelle Kwan's problems during her skating career came from financial pressures her family was under. Frank Carroll is rather notorious for the way he goes after parents for bills. Her parents were not wealthy and as a result she signed up for skating shows/tours and also endorsed a pair of boots that caused a stress fracture. She was under enormous pressure because her family had sacrificed so much. Rumor has it that the final break with Frank Carroll came over some financial disagreement.  

They weren't rich but they definitely weren't poor either. I remember rolling my eyes when Danny Kwan specifically said in an interview that he wasn't even able to get his kids new shoes at times. I remember thinking "Whaaat? When was that?" Even before Michelle won her first national title, the Kwan sisters had designer this and that, the parents were footing the bill at the very expensive Ice Castle International in Lake Arrowhead where the girls were allowed to train full time, the mom had a Mercedes, etc. Again, they might not have had the money that some families had but there were other families that had harder financial struggles than the Kwans.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Avaleigh

[Minneapple]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

Such as the 2010 World Championships, where they also came second?

There isn’t any reason to think the choice of venue was a factor.

Oh yes there was. I mean maybe not a huge factor, but Virtue/Moir skating in Canada -- unless Scott Moir falls on his ass there is no way they're losing that competition.

Just like the ladies event in Sochi. Julia Lipnitskaya was the HUGELY HYPED Russian but she fell so they just threw the gold at whatever other Russian lady had an adequate skate. Yuna should have won, but Sotnikova was Skating While Russian While In Russia. 

[Cherpumple]

16 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Which brings me back to my question some pages back about how a coach can identify in a young boy skater whether he is going to be in pairs or dance.  Many of the pairs men seem tall and strong whereas many dance men seem small and slight.  How can you tell at such an early age how big and strong a young boy skater will grow up to be?

Aside from looking at the builds of the other men in their family, I'm not sure. I'm not an expert by any means, but I don't think it's as simple as a coach assessing young bodies and then making a final decision. Several skaters have implied that these decisions have as much to do with their personalities and preferences as anything else. Johnny Weir used to be a pairs skater, but decided that he didn't want to be "the stem" that supported the female "flower". And Tara Lipinski would've been a horrible partner to anyone because she clearly hates the idea of her performance being affected by another person's mistakes (seriously, she groans about this in almost every pairs event that she commentates). The Shib sibs talked about how they started after watching an ice dancing competition and falling in love with the event, and one guy from pairs (from France?) came to the sport relatively late, after being a champion roller skater. Then there's the fact that dance and pairs require different strengths (lots of fancy footwork vs. jumps and throws), which probably naturally weeds out a lot of people before the elite levels, or causes them to change events of their own volition, based on their abilities and likes/dislikes.

Speaking of pairs, at one event this season Johnny implied that, in the US at least, pairs is often considered a downgrade from singles. Meaning that lots of singles who have weak jumps or can't break through to the top level turn to pairs as a second choice. This really surprised me, but would definitely explain why the US pairs have been historically unimpressive. Does anyone know if this attitude is US-specific or more widespread?

[HartofDixie]

2 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

Alex Shibutani went on a little Twitter rant. Nothing controversial, but I wonder if he's a little tired of the "you have no connection because you're siblings," and "you can't do the face clutching romance dances that are currently in style" crap. Because he does mention that (sort of). Perhaps now that he has an Olympic medal, he feels free to get a little off his chest? "You don’t have to be, or skate like anyone else. You don’t have to fit the mold or follow the path that everyone else is on."  Yup. Applause, Alex.

Who remembers the ending to the Kerr's OD...

Edited February 13, 2018 by HartofDixie

[Avaleigh]

2 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Oh yes there was. I mean maybe not a huge factor, but Virtue/Moir skating in Canada -- unless Scott Moir falls on his ass there is no way they're losing that competition.

Just like the ladies event in Sochi. Julia Lipnitskaya was the HUGELY HYPED Russian but she fell so they just threw the gold at whatever other Russian lady had an adequate skate. Yuna should have won, but Sotnikova was Skating While Russian While In Russia. 

I agree that hometown advantage is a real thing and it's not just limited to skating. 

In Sochi, you would have thought that Yuna was some average skater going by the reaction of the (mostly) Russian audience. Her long program was gorgeous but the crowd reaction between her and Sotnikova was night and day different. Adelina had the advantage of being able to play up to a crowd that got excited over every move she made. 

[Good Queen Jane]

44 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Which brings me back to my question some pages back about how a coach can identify in a young boy skater whether he is going to be in pairs or dance.  Many of the pairs men seem tall and strong whereas many dance men seem small and slight.  How can you tell at such an early age how big and strong a young boy skater will grow up to be?

Sometimes you look at the family to see how big the father or brothers are. Sometimes you match them up and see what happens when he hits puberty. Many great single skaters start out doing pairs (Paul Wylie, Ryan Bradley, even Johnny Weir) but after a while it became clear they didn't have the body type for it (Paul Wylie is one of the shortest men I have ever met) or they decided to focus on singles. Rockne Brubaker, who was one of the best pair skaters recently was simply outgrown by his first partner and never really found another. And then there is the famous story of Meno and Sand dumping their respective partners after they fell in love at the 1992 Olympics.

You don't often see skaters switch from pairs to dance. Dance has such different elements and rules from the other  three disciplines. For a while it was hard to get any American male interested in doing dance. It got so bad that most of the American dance couples were made up of a an American woman and a "rent-a-Russian," a man from the former Soviet Union who was financially supported by his partner's family. Ben Agosto made it cool (and sexy) for American men to do dance and the change of rules that allowed dance teams to move up quickly and the success of Davis and White helped bring in more boys.

Madison Hubbell started off skating dance with her brother. They were pretty successful, but Madison really blossomed when they split up and she partnered with Donohue. She certainly didn't dance with her brother like she does with Donohue.

[AshleyN]

2 hours ago, cleo said:

As a Canadian that never really paid much attn to figure skating, the virtue/moir dance blew me away. Can anyone recommend any other good performances of theirs? Or should i just dive into youtube

Also am I the only person that hates cbc's site and can't navigate it? Particularly looking for events after they air. Bc half of it is happening overnight. Not sure if it's me or what.

 

2 hours ago, herbz said:

Aha! This I can do- start with their 2010 free dance to Mahler's Symphony #5, then if you want a total contrast last year's short dance to Prince was a total masterclass. Their Carmen (it was so difficult they never quite got it right, but 2013 Worlds is the best performance of it) is most similar in vein to Moulin Rouge. Their 2014 short dance to Dream A Little Dream includes what remains IMO the best non touching step sequence of all time. 

They have great programs from their earlier years too- 2008's Umbrellas of Cherbourg and 2007's Assassin's Tango (if you ignore Tessa's terrible red hair) were wonderful. They were also pretty darn great at compulsories- 2010's Tango Romantica was the best. 

And just because it's cute, their Cutting Edge style exhibition from 2010 is worth a watch.

Edit: Oh and their Hip Hip Chin Chin free dance from 2011! Puts every one of the Latin shorts from this year (including their own tbh) to shame. Tessa's dancing in the first 30 seconds is just a marvel.

 

Love all these suggestions, but from my biased perspective I'd probably start with Umbrellas of Cherbourg. They've might have had better or more difficult programs throughout the years, but this is the one that converted me into an Ice Dance fan after never being all that cracked on the discipline. IIRC they actually won the free dance at worlds with this, which was basically unheard of for a team that young and only two years out of juniors.

I get the criticism that they've gone back to the romance well a little too often, but at the time this struck me as pure magic and ten years later still takes my breath away.

Edited February 13, 2018 by AshleyN

[Chaser]

Does anyone else think the Shibs should have gone back to Fix You this season? Or did more of a mashup of Paradise and Fix you?

[Minneapple]

Now that I'm thinking about it, the Shibs should try a Bollywood-style dance. Modern Bollywood (there are no real moves attributed to "Bollywood") is about expression and energy. It doesn't have to be a "WE'RE IN LOVE, YES REALLY WE ARE" type of dance. Meryl and Charlie's program incorporated classical Indian dance, but there's no law that says the Shibs would have to do that.

[Souris]

1 minute ago, Chaser said:

Does anyone else think the Shibs should have gone back to Fix You this season? Or did more of a mashup of Paradise and Fix you?

I've been saying all season that I wish they had "Fix You" for the Olympic season.

[herbz]

13 minutes ago, AshleyN said:

Love all these suggestions, but from my biased perspective I'd probably start with Umbrellas of Cherbourg. They've might have had better or more difficult programs throughout the years, but this is the one that converted me into an Ice Dance fan after never being all that cracked on the discipline. I get the criticism that they've gone back to the romance well a little too often, but at the time this struck me as pure magic and ten years later still takes my breath away.

 

I do adore that program. They'd probably act it better now, but their youthfulness was perfect here. 

As an aside to the discussion upthread, hometown advantage is most definitely a thing. Nevertheless, V/M deserved to win that Original Dance in Vancouver, and the overall competition by a bigger margin than they usually did over D/W, by nature of actually just going clean for once. A lot of people believed they should've won the compulsory too and they didn't, so it's not like the judges were going to hand them it regardless of what they put on the ice. 

9 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Now that I'm thinking about it, the Shibs should try a Bollywood-style dance. Modern Bollywood (there are no real moves attributed to "Bollywood") is about expression and energy. It doesn't have to be a "WE'RE IN LOVE, YES REALLY WE ARE" type of dance. Meryl and Charlie's program incorporated classical Indian dance, but there's no law that says the Shibs would have to do that.

Right? I said this somewhere else in the thread- Meryl and Charlie were never sexy. They hardly ever even tried romance. Their vibe as partners was as sibling-like as any of the actual sibling teams. But they still had an arsenal of fun, engaging, expressive performances in a variety of styles. I think the Shibs could do worse than look back to D/W than sticking with Coldplay lyrical programs. There's no reason to believe they couldn't pull off a polka or a Bollywood.

Edited February 13, 2018 by herbz

[sweeks]

3 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Does anyone else think the Shibs should have gone back to Fix You this season? Or did more of a mashup of Paradise and Fix you?

 

2 minutes ago, Souris said:

I've been saying all season that I wish they had "Fix You" for the Olympic season.

I completely agree! They seemed emotionally connected to "Fix You" in a way that has been absent from their LPs since then. Right now, it seems like they want to recreate "Fix You" with "Paradise" but can't make it work (I think that "Fix You" was a more dynamic song, which helped a lot).

That said, I'm still rooting for them to make the podium over Hubbell/Donohue. I used to like Hubbell/Donohue before this year's Nationals, but I cannot even with a Marie-France sweep (or the inevitable bodice-ripper style routines that would result from it).  

[HartofDixie]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

I don't understand why the Shibutanis can't do a "regular" dance and dance like the others.  Why can't the dance just show sibling affection?  Brothers and sisters will waltz together at weddings.  It doesn't mean they want to sleep with each other.  I think the Shibs hold themselves back, they definitely seem to connote this "ewwwe I'm dancing with my brother/sister" vibe.  If that's the case, they should have gone into pairs.  

I don't think being siblings hurt the Duchesnay's much.

 

And I never think about Julianne & Derek being siblings when they dance together.

[sweeks]

5 minutes ago, herbz said:

Right? I said this somewhere else in the thread- Meryl and Charlie were never sexy. They hardly ever even tried romance. Their vibe as partners was as sibling-like as any of the actual sibling teams. But they still had an arsenal of fun, engaging, expressive performances in a variety of styles. I think the Shibs could do worse than look back to D/W than sticking with Coldplay lyrical programs. There's no reason to believe they couldn't pull off a polka or a Bollywood.

One thing I always loved about Davis and White is that they didn't rely on heat to sell a program the way that I think V/M and H/D seem to. Seeing their skating also made me appreciate Marina Zoueva's choreography and adaptability, since the other couples' pieces I had seen by her (for G&G and V/M) had strong romantic elements. However, she knew how to cater to Meryl and Charlie's rapport and strengths.

[herbz]

34 minutes ago, sweeks said:

One thing I always loved about Davis and White is that they didn't rely on heat to sell a program the way that I think V/M and H/D seem to. Seeing their skating also made me appreciate Marina Zoueva's choreography and adaptability, since the other couples' pieces I had seen by her (for G&G and V/M) had strong romantic elements. However, she knew how to cater to Meryl and Charlie's rapport and strengths.

Part of me thinks if you've got it, you might as well use it. If it's a vibe that doesn't sit well without forcing it, then it's just going to look forced. D/W were smart to avoid it. But you can overdo it too- I think V/M got pigeonholed in 2014 (especially after Carmen). Marina did very well by D/W, but Seasons was such a bad idea, it just looked like they were still stuck in 2010. I never bought that V/M bought it either, so they compensated by overselling and I felt uncomfortable watching them oversell it. There are very few programs I actively dislike of theirs, but that's one of them. I was thrilled when they came back with Prince- they're so much more fun when being sleek and modern and naturally sexy. And then Marie France gave them Latch as a FD (they apparently had to be seriously cajoled into it). No! They should've stuck to their guns, they were more than experienced enough to get away with it. I can only appreciate it by ignoring the mush and focusing solely on the edgework and impeccable skating instead.

Edited February 13, 2018 by herbz

[iMonrey]

Quote

And Tara Lipinski would've been a horrible partner to anyone because she clearly hates the idea of her performance being affected by another person's mistakes (seriously, she groans about this in almost every pairs event that she commentates). 

To be fair, Tara is merely pointing out to the casual viewer that when one of the two partners misses the jump both are marked down. She is trying to educate rather than "groan," I think. Admittedly, however, she tends to point this out repeatedly, as if expecting a different audience with each broadcast.

Quote

Speaking of pairs, at one event this season Johnny implied that, in the US at least, pairs is often considered a downgrade from singles. Meaning that lots of singles who have weak jumps or can't break through to the top level turn to pairs as a second choice. This really surprised me, but would definitely explain why the US pairs have been historically unimpressive. Does anyone know if this attitude is US-specific or more widespread?

I think it's fairly universal. All beginner skaters start off with the same lessons. Those who are not strong jumpers are encouraged to go into dance or pairs if they plan to compete. 

I think the main reason the US has weaker pairs skaters (and, lately, singles skaters) is because Americans simply have more choices. Some of these skaters from Russia and Japan have literally nothing but skating in their lives. 

[kittykat]

2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Elvis Stojko was ticked in Lillehammer too.

Rightfully so.  Alexei Urmonov arguably is the Founder of Skating While Russian.

[Avaleigh]

53 minutes ago, Cherpumple said:

Speaking of pairs, at one event this season Johnny implied that, in the US at least, pairs is often considered a downgrade from singles. Meaning that lots of singles who have weak jumps or can't break through to the top level turn to pairs as a second choice. This really surprised me, but would definitely explain why the US pairs have been historically unimpressive. Does anyone know if this attitude is US-specific or more widespread?

I've always had this impression. When Kristi felt that she had to choose there was no hesitation in her choosing to focus more on being a singles skater.

John Baldwin was a singles skater for years before he decided to give it a try. His younger brother Don also switched to pairs after being a long time singles skater. Rena Inoue was also a singles skater for ages before switching.

Naomi Nari Nam went for pairs for awhile because she knew she wasn't going to make it in singles. 

Kyoko Ina originally wanted to be a singles skater and continued to do both for awhile. 

[riley702]

24 minutes ago, HartofDixie said:

I don't think being siblings hurt the Duchesnay's much.

 

 

One of my favorite routines! Thanks for that. The romance between Isabelle and Christopher Dean didn't hurt here with his fabulous choreography for the siblings.

[proserpina65]

15 hours ago, riley702 said:

Speaking of the '88 Olympics, one of my favorites did poorly there (Kurt Browning, eighth place), but he must have peaked just a bit later that year, as just a month later, he landed the first quad jump in competition. One year later, he started his 3 year run as World Champion. I loved his footwork. He was the personification of grace and strength. This is one of my favorite of his performances, in '97. He did 3 double axels in a row and his footwork is unreal.

 

Nobody does footwork of that quality anymore.

[HartofDixie]

27 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

To be fair, Tara is merely pointing out to the casual viewer that when one of the two partners misses the jump both are marked down. She is trying to educate rather than "groan," I think. Admittedly, however, she tends to point this out repeatedly, as if expecting a different audience with each broadcast.

I think it's fairly universal. All beginner skaters start off with the same lessons. Those who are not strong jumpers are encouraged to go into dance or pairs if they plan to compete. 

I think the main reason the US has weaker pairs skaters (and, lately, singles skaters) is because Americans simply have more choices. Some of these skaters from Russia and Japan have literally nothing but skating in their lives. 

This as well as the fact that they don't stay together long enough to rise up though I have some hope with our top 4 at Nationals.  I don't understand why Japan hasn't made a push yet with pairs.  They have so many singles skaters that they can easily put together a few teams.

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, HartofDixie said:

don't think being siblings hurt the Duchesnay's much.

Except unfortunately in that ill-conceived West Side Story program which probably cost them the gold at the Olympics.

36 minutes ago, kittykat said:

Rightfully so.  Alexei Urmonov arguably is the Founder of Skating While Russian.

It's my unpopular opinion that I greatly preferred Urmanov to Stojko at that Olympics.  I probably wouldn't feel the same now, but I wasn't a big Stojko fan at the time.

[Growsonwalls]

I don't think the ShibSibs' issue is romantic. Grishuk/Platov were not known as "romantic" ice dancers, neither were Bourne/Kraatz, Davis/White, Navka/Kostamarov. I think the issue with them is that they've been around for a long time but haven't really developed a unique style that makes them stand out. Like you might not like them, but I bet you could put a paper bag over Scott and Tessa and people could tell it was a V/M program just from the lifts, the edges, the way they dance. You could say the same about Papadakis/Cizeron. In ice dance "style" is a huge part of the judging, whereas in pairs or singles elements are ticked off one by one. 

By the way if you want to see how the mens' discipline has always been about The Jumps here's Brian Orser's 1984 LP. Even back then people were all about Can He Do the Triple Axel the same way now it's about Can They Do the Quad.

[Cherpumple]

37 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

To be fair, Tara is merely pointing out to the casual viewer that when one of the two partners misses the jump both are marked down. She is trying to educate rather than "groan," I think. Admittedly, however, she tends to point this out repeatedly, as if expecting a different audience with each broadcast.

She is educating the audience, but I've definitely heard her make multiple comments about how angry she would be if she were a pairs skater and her partner made a mistake in competition. It's happened enough for me to notice, and Johnny even teases her a little about it. This is not a criticism of her, I'm just saying that she clearly has the mentality of a singles skater, which obviously worked out well for her.

[Growsonwalls]

Just now, Cherpumple said:

She is educating the audience, but I've definitely heard her make multiple comments about how angry she would be if she were a pairs skater and her partner made a mistake in competition. It's happened enough for me to notice, and Johnny even teases her a little about it. This is not a criticism of her, I'm just saying that she clearly has the mentality of a singles skater, which obviously worked out well for her.

Tara was famous for being a harsh perfectionist when she was skating singles. I think she's the type who always had to do a perfect clean program no matter what. She's older, more mature, and I actually really like her now but that strain of perfectionism is still there and you can sense it in her commentating. Sometimes I can feel the smoke coming out of her ears when she sees a poorly executed program.

[NUguy514]

7 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

Alas, the 2010 ice dance competition will forever be in my mind as the year that they HAD to put a non-North American couple on the podium, and we were subjected to THIS. The opposite of "timeless." (shout out to Mumbles)

 

AAAAAAHHHHHH, KILL IT! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!

[Mellowyellow]

Thanks for that run down @Avaleigh

I only watch on a casual basis so don't know much about the technical side of things but was she bad technically? Is that why she fell so often? She looks beautiful on ice!

I think I adore Yuna because Yuna looks gorgeous on ice but girl can also land anything and everything! 

[HartofDixie]

Olympic figure skating unveils new, modern soundtrack

The Coldplay song from Adam Rippon's free skate was trending for a bit on iTunes.  With vocals in all the disciplines as well as well as live skating during primetime I wonder if singers and bands will see a sudden increase in sales over the next two weeks.  Even Moulin Rouge was trending on Twitter!

[Avaleigh]

24 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Thanks for that run down @Avaleigh

I only watch on a casual basis so don't know much about the technical side of things but was she bad technically? Is that why she fell so often? She looks beautiful on ice!

I think I adore Yuna because Yuna looks gorgeous on ice but girl can also land anything and everything! 

My answer to this is a mixed bag. She definitely had some technical issues. For one thing, she was a flutzer and that was unfair to the skaters who did the lutz properly. She also changed her entrance for her flip after 2002 so that she had this measured pause before tapping her foot. It usually worked out but not always. Also, I said in my earlier post, she had issues with her triple toe. It was ridiculous how often she would miss it. For awhile she was doing it in combination by putting a half loop salchow at the end of it, but she'd miss the toe so often that she eventually abandoned that combo. It was great when she'd hit it though. 

At the same time, I'd say she had great technique on just about everything else. Her spins were the best in the world IMO. I think it's fair to say that she popularized the I-spin. Her layback was a thing of beauty and it was a shame that she was eventually forced to turn it into a Biellman because of the COP.

Her double axel had nice height and a poweful, fearless entry. Compare it to say, Tara Lipinski's unflattering rollerskate entry and you'll see what I mean. Sasha had great edge jumps. Her loop and salchow were perfection when she did them. In fact, her salchow was strong enough that she started working on a quad for awhile. She never did it in competition but there are one or two practice clips available of her (barely) landing it. 

I honestly think that most of Sasha's issues were psychological. Sure, she had her share of injuries but you'd see her look fine in a warm up only to crash and burn during her program. 

She was also a skater who switched coaches a lot and I find that's rarely helpful with skaters. Nicole Bobek is an example of a skater who seemingly burned through just about every coach in the sport. Christopher Bowman too.

[HartofDixie]

[herbz]

That Domnina/Shabalin program was an atrocity, I don't always think the short dance does a great job of replacing compulsories but if it means getting rid of appalling original dances like that one I'll take it. 

[mightysparrow]

I haven't paid attention to figure skating in years so it's been interesting seeing how the sport has changed.  I'm old enough to remember the Soviet years and I was feeling very nostalgic for those days just yesterday.  I have to respectfully disagree with another comment about that system.  The one thing that I remember about the Soviet skaters was that they most definitely FELT the music.  That was one of the beauties of watching Russian skaters; watching them take a beautiful piece of music and tell a story.  On the other hand, the one thing the Soviet skaters didn't pay attention to was whether or not the audience LIKED them.  They rarely smiled or waved to the crowds; they hit the ice and did their thing.  A lot of people thought that it meant that they were cold, 'robots' but I just thought it meant that they were focused on what they were doing and weren't trying to substitute 'likability' for ability.   When I think about some of the great Soviet  skaters, I feel like singing 'Camelot'. 

The fall of the Soviet system seemed to leave a lot of skaters from the former Soviet Union at a loss.  Suddenly it mattered if they were 'liked'.  It seemed that audience reaction began to play a bigger, bigger part in the performance. I've always thought that one of the reasons that my beloved Michelle Kwan was robbed (yes ROBBED) of what she deserved was because she didn't try and kiss the audience's ass the way some of the lesser 'cute as a button' skaters did.  She just went out there and skated like a dream.  Michelle skated like a Soviet skater; telling a story, taking us on a journey.

My favourite example is Kurt Browning.  As a Canadian, I'm SUPPOSED to think that Kurt Browning is one of the all time greats.  Don't tell Justin Trudeau but I've ALWAYS thought Kurt Browning was mediocre at best.  But he covered up his mediocrity with his 'aw shucks' bullshit.   In my opinion, on his best day, Kurt Browning wasn't fit to wash Victor Petrenko's jock-strap.  I may as well admit that I don't care for Patrick Chan either, while I'm at it.  As far as I'm concerned, Canada has given this guy all our love and support.  The least he could do is stay on his fucking feet.

I also have to say I miss the old scoring system too.  The Canadian announcers also commented that they needed a calculator to figure out who was where.  Any system that rewards someone who falls on their ass more than someone who actually skates cleanly is a travesty.  How can they think this is a good thing?   Skating has been reduced to something that they do between jumps, not the reason they show up in the first place.

Mirai and Adam are the two skaters that stole my heart on Sunday.  They skate with HEART.  Both of them took me on a journey and at the end, I wanted to thank both of them for the gift of their artistry.   Ice dancing has always been my favourite. It seems like I'm supposed to dislike Virture/Moir but I'm not much of a joiner.  I don't dislike them at all.  In fact, I think they're pretty good.  They just strike me as kids playing dress up.  I really enjoyed the Russian (or whatever it is they are) and Italian couples because I felt they told a story and that's the kind of ice dancing I like.

I'm hoping the individual skates will be better than the team competition, although I am happy that Canada won gold! I don't like the fact that the whole team seemed to be focused on winning the gold for Patrick.  Let him win his own damn gold.  But I don't have THAT much hope.  Don't get older folks.  You'll spend a lot of your time saying 'back when I was a girl...'

[Minneapple]

28 minutes ago, herbz said:

That Domnina/Shabalin program was an atrocity, I don't always think the short dance does a great job of replacing compulsories but if it means getting rid of appalling original dances like that one I'll take it. 

Soooo much secondhand embarrassment over that program. Who on earth thought that was a good idea? I cannot imagine going out there on the ice, in front of the world, wearing those costumes and doing that dance. 

[riley702]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

it was a shame that she was eventually forced to turn it into a Biellman because of the COP.

I HATE the Biellman spin. And I'm beyond sick of its overuse. I know I'm supposed to see this graceful tulip shape, but to me, it looks vulgar and trashy.

[sweeks]

Is anyone watching Olympic Ice? Tanith White and Scott Hamilton are demonstrating a pairs twist by walking through the moves while Tanith narrates. Tanith is actually quite good at explaining it (she apparently was a pairs skater before she became an ice dancer).

[caracas1914]

8 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

 

In 2001 she was going to try a quad salchow at some grand prix event. She popped it and spent the rest of the program in a psychological funk. 

 

 

Was that the Skate America in Colorado Springs that year?  I went to that one and   I remember she landed some (sort of )in the practice sessions , and in the warmup before the final group the audience gasped because she almost landed one cleanly, my recollection is a little fuzzy.

Always had mixed feelings about Sasha Cohen because while I thought she was beautiful on ice, sometimes I felt her flexibility overshadowed her actual skating.   As a Kwan fan it drove me crazy when even the commentators stated Sasha had the best spiral sequence when i was thinking “er no..she’s got the best flexibility doing  it but the actual blade edging is inferior to Michelle’s...”) 

Hard to figure her out, because while she seemed outwardly poised and confident she  fell apart more often than not when it really counted, so I wondered if skating was something she did because she was gifted and good at, as opposed to loving the sport for it’s own sake.   Sasha never had that one lights out skating performance of both a clean SP and LP.

By the end of her career I was rooting for her to have that one “aha” moment but alas....

Edited February 14, 2018 by caracas1914

[Moxie Cat]

59 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

It seems like I'm supposed to dislike Virture/Moir but I'm not much of a joiner.  I don't dislike them at all.  In fact, I think they're pretty good. 

Ugh, I dislike them so much (well, Scott) BUT could not tear my eyes away from their FS Sunday. And to Moulin Rouge, of all (awful) things. They are such performers. I kept thinking, THIS is how you do Moulin Rouge (Ashley). Maybe you just need two performers, though.

[Avaleigh]

26 minutes ago, riley702 said:

I HATE the Biellman spin. And I'm beyond sick of its overuse. I know I'm supposed to see this graceful tulip shape, but to me, it looks vulgar and trashy.

I don't hate the Biellman spin but I do hate that skaters will be penalized for not doing it. That's what gets me. There were multiple skaters in the past who did average to crappy laybacks so it isn't as though a layback without a catch foot or Biellman is necessarily less difficult or should be viewed as a low level.

Sasha, Sarah Hughes, and Angela Nikodinov probably had the best laybacks of all time. No Biellman needed to make them look spectacular. Frankly, I like seeing some of the men do it just because it's so rare to see one without the Biellman these days.

Great skaters who didn't have particularly good laybacks? Michelle Kwan, Yuna Kim, Irina Slutskaya, Tara Lipinski. That's just off the top of my head. 

Regarding Sasha's spiral sequences, I preferred hers to Michelle's because Michelle was a one trick pony wrt the spiral sequence. It was the same in every program. Inside edge, outside edge. It was a signature move, sure but she never did anything to freshen it up. Sasha would do the change of edge like Michelle in addition to the Sasha spiral with the skid; she'd also do the Charlottein a perfect split, she'd sometimes throw in a split jump, etc. There was variety. 

Agreed that Sasha never had two amazing back to back performances. She had alot if great shorts that would make me hopeful and them somewhere during the long it was like, "Gah, why?!"

ETA

Caracas1914, I think you might be right about that being Skate America where she was going to try the quad and bailed. I was thinking it was Trophee Lalique but I think you're right.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Avaleigh

[Shades of Red]

TSN4 in Canada looks like it will show all of the pairs' short programs.  Remember to add time to your PVR if you're taping it as so far all the figure skating has gone longer than what's on the program guide.  At least that's what I've noticed so far.  I think the main CBC network will have highlights.  They will no doubt show all the Canadian pairs, but not showing it live.

On an unrelated note but speaking of changes I'd like to see, I wish the side by side camel spins would be retired for pairs.  I cringe every time one of them is now shown.  Too many nasty accidents for this one move, that it's time to eliminate it.  I know skaters can be injured at any time, but in this case it seems particularly gruesome to me when it happens.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Shades of Red

[riff-raff]

8 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I don't hate the Biellman spin but I do hate that skaters will be penalized for not doing it. That's what gets me. There were multiple skaters in the past who did average to crappy laybacks so it isn't as though a layback without a catch foot or Biellman is necessarily less difficult or should be viewed as a low level.

I very much agree with this.   I also think it is nonsense that a Biellman is more difficult than a properly done layback.  The proof is in the pudding.  Virtually every, single skater does a Biellman now, so it's not like it's some incredible tricky thing to catch your blade.  By contrast, before the COP changed, very few skaters could do a proper layback spin.  They should have just cracked down on judging the layback, so those with proper leg/arm/back positions, got the same bonus as a properly done Biellman. 

[galaxygirl76]

21 minutes ago, Shades of Red said:

On an unrelated note but speaking of changes I'd like to see, I wish the side by side camel spins would be retired for pairs.  I cringe every time one of them is now shown.  Too many nasty accidents for this one move, that it's time to eliminate it.  I know skaters can be injured at any time, but in this case it seems particularly gruesome to me when it happens.

Didn't Elena Elena Berezhnaya get injured doing one of those?

[Shades of Red]

7 minutes ago, galaxygirl76 said:

Didn't Elena Elena Berezhnaya get injured doing one of those?

She did.  

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1997/03/19/a-career-almost-cut-short-by-a-blade/ee3277d1-758a-4a1a-a231-6bf46a0bd0e9/?utm_term=.a4e97491f085

[Shaynaa]

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_PairSkating_SP_TimeSchedule.pdf  Skating order with start times.

I've never seen the North Koreans skate, are they any good? 

[AshleyN]

12 minutes ago, galaxygirl76 said:

Didn't Elena Elena Berezhnaya get injured doing one of those?

I don't remember that, but I do remember seeing video of Jessica Dube getting a skate blade in the face on one. It was terrifying.

Edited February 14, 2018 by AshleyN