S01.E10: Despite Yourself

[paigow]

Quote

While in unfamiliar territory, the U.S.S. Discovery crew is forced to get creative in their next efforts to survive opposing and unprecedented forces and return home.

 

Edited January 1, 2018 by kariyaki
Added episode description

[marinw]

SQUEEEEEE That was great!

At first I thought they jumped forward in time, to the aftermath of Wolf 359.

Loved how Lorca emulated Scotty the Engineer. That can’t be a coincidence.

All hail the great and terrible Captain Killy.

I don’t get how everyone can have a counterpart-the parents would have to meet up at exactly the same time in both universes.

Nooooo. Not Dr. Culber. And Stamets staring into space while his partner is killed. That was harsh. Hope there’s a mirror Culber.

I always regretted that TNG never did a mirror universe episode. Mirror Picard would have been spectacular.

Ash is breaking my heart.

Edited January 8, 2018 by marinw

[starri]

Long live Captain Killy!  Long live the Empire!

[CanadaPhil]

OMG!!!

That was just soooooooooooo damn good!

wow. 

PS: Empress Cornwell... callin it! ;)

Edited January 8, 2018 by CanadaPhil

[MrWhyt]

Well who didn't see that coming?

 

6 minutes ago, starri said:

Long live Captain Killy!  Long live the Empire!

well that's not very clever

[ottoDbusdriver]

Mirror universe episodes are always interesting, but once you get past the initial awesomeness there are a lot of issues that need answers.

So when we saw the duplicate Discoverys last episode, that meant that the Mirror Universe Discovery is now n the prime STDverse since they apparently spore-jumped at the exact same time in the exact same place (which is really hard to believe).

I'm also having difficulty with the plan -- to get the USS Defiant details so they can find the soft spot between universes near the Tholian sector.  But that soft spot connected to a point 10+ years in the future in the prime STDverse to a point nearly 100 years in the past of the Mirror universe -- how exactly are they going to manipulate the time portion of the transition back to the STDverse ?

If the Discovery was developed to battle the Klingons in the prime STDverse only AFTER the battle of the Binary Stars, why would it have been developed in the Mirrorverse since the Terran Empire already ruled with an iron fist ?  Did they also build an ISS Glenn ?

While Stamets talked about infinite possibilities during his travels in the spore network, i.e. infinite # of universes, why does there only seem to be the 2 universes ?

How is the Mirror Universe Discovery powering it's spore drive ?  The Tardigrade ? Mirror Stamets ? 

Now we definitively know that Tyler is actually a Klingon -- so where is the original Ash Tyler ? 
And how did FauxTyler pass a DNA test -- shortening bones and resizing internal organs wouldn't cut it, because they would still be Klingon bones and organs.

And I'm a little pissed that they killed off Dr. Culber.

Edited January 8, 2018 by ottoDbusdriver

[marinw]

9 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

And I'm a little pissed that they killed off Dr. Culber.

I'm a lot pissed. And no one has noticed a dead doctor in sickbay yet?

Edited January 8, 2018 by marinw

[Primal Slayer]

One thing this show does well is give us some GREAT costumes. 

[Nanrad]

I'm sad about Culbert.

I'm worried for Burnham and this thing going on with Tyler.

Lorca is awesome. He isn't missing a beat.

[ottoDbusdriver]

59 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

One thing this show does well is give us some GREAT costumes. 

Tilly looked pretty badass in her captain's outfit.

[aemom]

I feel sad that Star Trek finally had a gay couple and then killed one of them halfway through the first season.  Seems like they weren't ready to fully commit to the idea for the long haul.

I don't know how you cover up Tyler's Klingon DNA.

[Kromm]

Um.

 

Ew.

1 hour ago, AEMom said:

I feel sad that Star Trek finally had a gay couple and then killed one of them halfway through the first season.  Seems like they weren't ready to fully commit to the idea for the long haul.

Killed one and drove the other one nuts.  

It's a "Bury Your Gays"-o-rama on this show, apparently.

1 hour ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Tilly looked pretty badass in her captain's outfit.

I'll give the show that. Butching her up a bit actually displayed her... assets... very well.

3 hours ago, marinw said:

I don’t get how everyone can have a counterpart-the parents would have to meet up at exactly the same time in both universes.

That's the one thing we probably don't have to waste worry over. It's a conceit the previous versions of Trek have always had. Where as most of the silly sh*t unique to this show is just bad writing, that one's just deliberate fantasy.

Acceptable: Mirror versions of people. On-screen insane coincidence that they all wind up in similar but often flipped positions--when we see it presented as a PLOT TWIST. 

Silly: Off-screen coincidences, like Mirror Burnham having an elaborate back history with Mirror Lorca. Elaborate mirror parallels become eye rolly and come off just as silly conceits when they come out through bullshit exposition rather than through clever seeming onscreen twists.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Kromm

[Kromm]

3 hours ago, marinw said:

Loved how Lorca emulated Scotty the Engineer. That can’t be a coincidence.

(Wink. Wink. Inside jokes. Show being deliberately reflexive. Etc.)

[KimberStormer]

1 hour ago, Kromm said:

Silly: Off-screen coincidences, like Mirror Burnham having an elaborate back history with Mirror Lorca. Elaborate mirror parallels become eye rolly and come off just as silly conceits when they come out through bullshit exposition rather than through clever seeming onscreen twists.

Well, if "our" Lorca has really been Mirror Lorca all along, as I feel is very possible (and this episode only helped this theory) then that's not a coincidence: he specifically got Burnham on the Discovery for just that reason.

4 hours ago, CanadaPhil said:

PS: Empress Cornwell... callin it! ;)

That's close to my prediction, which is Empress Georgiou!

Perhaps this show will end up killing every character.  Seems to be rushing in that direction.  I do hope we see Mirror versions of all the women and now gay men they've killed off.  Mirror Landry will be rad, even if she is actually Landry Prime and it was Mirror Landry who was killed in such spectacularly dumb fashion.  I'm also expecting the Rebel Alliance, or Resistance, or whatever the generic "relevant to our times" rag-tag band of diverse freedom fighters is called, to be headed by Mirror T'Kuvma....but how did L'Rell and Voq know they were going to go to Mirror Universe to get him?

Anyway, this show continues to be quite a mosaic of good and bad to me.  If it wasn't Star Trek I would have stopped watching so long ago.  But I'm still in.

[thuganomics85]

Ah, Mirror Universes!  Part of me thinks that having one so early reeks of desperation, but then the other part of me just can't get enough of "Captain Killy!"  Loved Tilly playing that role, and I really hope we eventually get to see Alt-Tilly somewhere down the line.

If I'm understanding things correctly, was Michael suggesting that they actually switched places with the other Discovery?  So, does that mean that as of this moment, this is currently a racist, all-human Discovery just out in the regular universe, wrecking hell?  I can only imagine the damage they can cause before things go back to normal (or as close as they can.)

Really hope they find some way to bring Culber back (even if it's cheap), because it really feels dated and cowardly to kill him off like they did.  Is everyone in television that afraid to actually have a gay couple that doesn't end in pain and suffering?

But I'm guessing Tyler really is Voq in disguise, and had his memories wiped, Blindspot-style.  Not sure what the grand plan is here.

So, who will be the mysterious grand emperor?  My first though was Georgiou, who refused to be called empress for whatever reason.  Or it could be Cornwall, perhaps.  If they just want to be wacky about it, I guess they could go with Mudd.  Or maybe it will be someone entirely new.

I almost felt bad about chuckling to them cutting away from Michel and Tyler getting it on, to Lorca getting tortured.  He is so going to be pissed if he ever finds out what they were doing while he was getting God knows how many volts zapped into him!

[Latverian Diplomat]

4 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

....

I'm also having difficulty with the plan -- to get the USS Defiant details so they can find the soft spot between universes near the Tholian sector.  But that soft spot connected to a point 10+ years in the future in the prime STDverse to a point nearly 100 years in the past of the Mirror universe -- how exactly are they going to manipulate the time portion of the transition back to the STDverse ?

If the Discovery was developed to battle the Klingons in the prime STDverse only AFTER the battle of the Binary Stars, why would it have been developed in the Mirrorverse since the Terran Empire already ruled with an iron fist ?  Did they also build an ISS Glenn ?

...

Now we definitively know that Tyler is actually a Klingon -- so where is the original Ash Tyler ? 
And how did FauxTyler pass a DNA test -- shortening bones and resizing internal organs wouldn't cut it, because they would still be Klingon bones and organs.

...

The Defiant plan almost certainly won't work. It's desperation, but it's the only lead they've got. We [the audience] may know more reasons why it wouldn't work than they do...we've seen both sides of the Defiant story, they only have a fragment of one side. But it's mostly an excuse to get Burnham on the Mirror version of her old ship.

The spore drive project predated the war, I thought, but was accelerated because of it. I suspect the Empire built their Discovery for a different reason, and don't have a spore drive.

It's sad that the original series had a more plausible take Klingon disguise than a show fifty years later. Darvin was surgically altered to appear human, but a tricorder scan easily uncovered the scheme. Here, the "transformation" has to get past the scans or the plot won't work. So, it gets past the scans. Lazy writing, IMHO. Equally weak is that someone tortured for months was cleared for duty in a sensitive position, and kept there even though he's showing PTSD symptoms all over the place (even if that's not was he's actually suffering from, the symptoms look very similar--alarm bells should be going off).

I'm already pretty sick of Tyler, having him kill the doctor was just latest thing making me eager for this plotline to be over.

Small nitpick: If Tyler is there as Burnham's body, why are they ever separated. Where was Connor's bodyguard? It seems like they cooked up a reason Tyler had to go along, without bothering to stick to it.

[dwmarch]

4 hours ago, starri said:

Long live Captain Killy!  Long live the Empire!

"Let's not keep these assholes waiting!" She gets the best lines.

4 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I'm also having difficulty with the plan -- to get the USS Defiant details so they can find the soft spot between universes near the Tholian sector.  But that soft spot connected to a point 10+ years in the future in the prime STDverse to a point nearly 100 years in the past of the Mirror universe -- how exactly are they going to manipulate the time portion of the transition back to the STDverse ?

STDverse, heh! The answer is through the time-honored tradition of technobabble. Someone will point out that the spatial-temporal coordinates won't match, someone else will say they are reversing the polarity of a quantum subsystem to compensate. Bonus points if they route it through the deflector dish.

3 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

One thing this show does well is give us some GREAT costumes. 

"I'd cut out your tongue and use it to clean my boots!" Tilly sounds like she's never worn boots like that before and they're giving her an extra boost in confidence. I hope she keeps some of these more confident personality traits... and those boots.

[piequinn35]

Guys and gals, it is Emperor Stamets. 

[KimberStormer]

I feel like we've had the explanation for Voq/Ash?  That Ash is a real guy but they put Voq into his brain?  I still like Ash so I hope we can get past this "guess what the Pakistani guy is a terrorist mole, also we are totally not racist like our cheesy fascist Empire" plotline and have him be a person.  Although probably they will just kill him in a throwaway scene like everybody else.

EMPEROR STELLA MUDD

[marinw]

If and when Discovery gets back to its’ proper universe, I doubt Tilly is meekly going to go back to being a cadet. In fact, the longer they stay in the Mirror Universe, the more they will become like their counterparts.

Lorca was right to assign another doctor to take care of Stamets, for all the good that did.

Edited January 8, 2018 by marinw

[marinw]

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Really hope they find some way to bring Culber back (even if it's cheap)

Maybe they will recruit Mirror Culber because he's a nice guy in both Universes, and Mirror Culber will defect from the ISS  because the Mirror Universe may be homophobic. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by marinw

[Helena Dax]

So, the Mirror Universe!

I've read the theory that our Lorca might have been Mirror!Lorca all along, hiding in our universe after killing mirror!Burnham and real!Lorca. On the one hand, it sounds pretty awesome. On the other hand, wouldn't Saru know? And the mirror counterparts were supposed to be too savage to even act like civilised people, so it would mean Mirror!Lorca is the greatest and most balanced actor in his universe. But well, this would only matter in a universe where canon was fully respected and that's clearly not our own (for good or bad).

Sad that Culbert's been killed. And I'm sorry for Ash, too. In many senses, he's as real as Voq. He doesn't want to be Voq. And anyway, this plot doesn't really explain why ten years later from now klingons will be going around the galaxy looking like humans with bad facial hair.

Since we are now in the Mirror Universe, I'd like to share my long-time theory that it was McCoy in The City... who started this alternate universe by saving Edith Keeler. The Terran Empire was the result of an Earth under Nazi rule and that's the origin of all the changes we've seen in it from Enterprise to DS9. That would explain why Vulcans don't have evil counterparts: their history was the same until they made first contact with Terrans. Also, in my headcanon, this is the reason McCoy talks in one of the earlier episodes about "conquering the Vulcans". (Yeah, I know it was because the writers didn't stll know for sure what kind of world they wanted, but I like to think that it was some kind of parallel universe bug). 

Loved Tilly as Captain Killy. Great nickname, heh.

[Lies]

1 hour ago, KimberStormer said:

I feel like we've had the explanation for Voq/Ash?  That Ash is a real guy but they put Voq into his brain?  I still like Ash so I hope we can get past this "guess what the Pakistani guy is a terrorist mole, also we are totally not racist like our cheesy fascist Empire" plotline and have him be a person.  Although probably they will just kill him in a throwaway scene like everybody else.

EMPEROR STELLA MUDD

Dr Culber said "Ash's" bones and organs were surgically altered and that a new personality was inserted on top of the original one. So I think Voq was altered to look human and given the real Ash Tyler's physical qualities as well as his personality and memories. The plan was probably to make him a sleeper agent and for L'Rell to 'activate' him (bring Voq's supressed memories/personality back) once she got on board the Discovery, but something went wrong like she said.

Maybe we'll get an explanation as to why the sensors didn't identify Klingon DNA  in a later episode.

[CanadaPhil]

Another question now is....

How long will they remain in the Mirror Universe?

Prior Mirror Trek plot lines have been 2 episodes at most. I am thinking that they will be here for a significant period of time and maybe even the entire remainder of Season 1. 

Another big one... Will Ash/Voq meet a Mirror Voq!? 

And I just wanted to say.... Lorca doing his Scottish bit was off the charts priceless! haha

 

PS:..

Empress Cornwell?

Empress Gergiou?

Emperor Mudd?

Emperor Stamets?

Emperor "Blowed-Up Dead Admiral"?

Who else?...

I would like to see Cornwell, but then again, crazy "Gary Mitchell-eyed super strength" Stamets saying "the enemy is here!" and "stay out of the palace!" is sort of a big loud giveaway. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by CanadaPhil

[themadman]

1 hour ago, Lies said:

Maybe we'll get an explanation as to why the sensors didn't identify Klingon DNA  in a later episode.

They'll have to come up with a damn convincing explanation, because right now I'm not buying it at all. 

[Vandy10]

Looks like L'Rell's cleverness has a limit. That Voq-activation code (prayer) didn't work quite as she expected. Oh well.

I do like that in the Mirror Universe, Lorca was the one attempting a coup of the Emperor. That man just can't act right in any universe, can he? Unless, of course, it's the same Lorca who's already hopped universes.

The less said about Culber, the better. Grr...

I am looking forward to many more Captain Killy scenes. They were the best part of the episode.

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, Helena Dax said:

Since we are now in the Mirror Universe, I'd like to share my long-time theory that it was McCoy in The City... who started this alternate universe by saving Edith Keeler. The Terran Empire was the result of an Earth under Nazi rule and that's the origin of all the changes we've seen in it from Enterprise to DS9. That would explain why Vulcans don't have evil counterparts: their history was the same until they made first contact with Terrans. Also, in my headcanon, this is the reason McCoy talks in one of the earlier episodes about "conquering the Vulcans". (Yeah, I know it was because the writers didn't stll know for sure what kind of world they wanted, but I like to think that it was some kind of parallel universe bug). 

Except that the opening credit sequence for the two-part Enterprise episode"In a Mirror, Darkly" makes it clear that the Mirror Universe has ALWAYS existed as a parallel to the Prime Universe, as did the showrunners.  McCoy's saving of Edith Keeler had nothing to do with it and couldn't have anyway, since Kirk and Spock restored the original timeline by preventing McCoy from saving her in the first place.

[Lokiberry]

3 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

I feel like we've had the explanation for Voq/Ash?  That Ash is a real guy but they put Voq into his brain?  I still like Ash so I hope we can get past this "guess what the Pakistani guy is a terrorist mole, also we are totally not racist like our cheesy fascist Empire" plotline and have him be a person.  Although probably they will just kill him in a throwaway scene like everybody else.

EMPEROR STELLA MUDD

Is Ash Pakistani? If Ash is Voq should they not have cast Shazad Latif in the role? I mean, I assume the character's arch had been planned before the actor was cast. Should he have been excluded from auditioning because of his ethnicity?

[The Kings Foot]

6 minutes ago, Lokiberry said:

Is Ash Pakistani? If Ash is Voq should they not have cast Shazad Latif in the role? I mean, I assume the character's arch had been planned before the actor was cast. Should he have been excluded from auditioning because of his ethnicity?

Minor nitpick. The word is arc not arch.

[Helena Dax]

12 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Except that the opening credit sequence for the two-part Enterprise episode"In a Mirror, Darkly" makes it clear that the Mirror Universe has ALWAYS existed as a parallel to the Prime Universe, as did the showrunners.  McCoy's saving of Edith Keeler had nothing to do with it and couldn't have anyway, since Kirk and Spock restored the original timeline by preventing McCoy from saving her in the first place.

I've rewatched that intro and although I might have missed some detailz, all I see at the beginning are scenes of wars that could have happened in our universe. Our own past is pretty dark. The first time you can see the Terran Empire symbol is in a image that could be from the late 20s, maybe the 30s, just when McCoy altered the timeline. And I know, of course, that Kirk and Spock restored the original timeline but who says the altered one didn't keep existing? Anyway, it's just my headcanon, obviously and I know the writers didn't have that in mind.

[Lies]

2 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

Is Ash Pakistani? If Ash is Voq should they not have cast Shazad Latif in the role? I mean, I assume the character's arch had been planned before the actor was cast. Should he have been excluded from auditioning because of his ethnicity?

Exactly. Plus we don't know where this headed. Maybe the Ash persona will prevail or Voq will have a change of heart.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Lies

[Joimiaroxeu]

Seems to me Lorca's up to something. When he was theorizing to Burnham and Saru at the beginning he was tapdancing like a shady used car salesman. To his advantage, Stamets was in no condition to contradict him. Then Tyler was going through his own PTSD drama and Lorca figured Burnham was just distracted enough over her new bae not to be running on all cylinders.

Poor Tyler. The 50 Shades of Manchurian Starfleet officer.

Long Live the Empire, or LLTE, doesn't quite roll off the tongue, eh? And ugh, those Terran nazi-esque salutes.

I think Tilly looks great with her new blowout hairdo.

Aw, Burnham thinks she's in love. She's likely heading toward a heartbreak. I just hope she doesn't end up having to kill Ash after his alter ego Voq tries to kill her.

Quote

I've read the theory that our Lorca might have been Mirror!Lorca all along, hiding in our universe after killing mirror!Burnham and real!Lorca.

Works for me because something definitely seems off about Lorca.

[xaxat]

54 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

When he was theorizing to Burnham and Saru at the beginning he was tapdancing like a shady used car salesman.

Lorca is devious AF. When he gets someone into his ready room he is a master manipulator. Burnham when she joined the crew. Cornwall. Stammets prior to the multi jump. Saru and Burnham in the mirror universe. Isaacs is great in the role.

I think they tried to make too much of the Tyler character. Burnham love interest, sleeper agent, head of security. Having him fulfill all of those roles is putting an increased strain on the show's plausibility. 

The "Captain" Tilly reveal was hilarious. 

They had better fix Stammets/Culber.

[MrWhyt]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Seems to me Lorca's up to something.

that really seems to be his default setting. Man is shifty as hell.

Mod: I see my previous post has been deleted. I assure you that my "that's not very clever" line was a reference to the joke in the episode and certainly not intended to be a derogatory comment towards the poster i replied to.

[mrspidey]

15 hours ago, CanadaPhil said:

OMG!!!

That was just soooooooooooo damn good!

wow. 

PS: Empress Cornwell... callin it! ;)

Personally, I'm hoping for Hoshi Sato III., like in the novels. 

They'll have to come up with a damn convincing explanation, because right now I'm not buying it at all. 

For a few years now, scientists have been refining and improving CRISPR-Cas9, which is a very cheap gene-editing method that is capable of editing DNA base pair by base pair.

It's not far-fetched to think a more advanced species could rewrite DNA on its most fundemental level. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by mrspidey

[Colorado David]

good episode. boo on the bridge crew clapping for Burnham when she kills Connor, that's seems very old school corny to me.

i see stamets somehow pulling culber into whatever universe stamets now exists in. one agree with most here, it makes no sense to kill off that character this quickly, considering they've developed their relationship to a degree already. and two, if they do cross over and become 'Q' like beings, it would make for interesting story lines in the future.

minor nickpick - Burnham reconfigures the original Discovery's quantum signature to match those of the alt universe's Discovery. Is a quantum signature so easy to alter? If so, you could have messes of alt-universe baddies in our 'original' universe.

[aemom]

I wonder if they might pull something similar to what they did on a Voyager episode where they brought alternative Harry Kim and baby Naomi Wildman over to their Voyager.  Perhaps Mirror-Culber being a doctor, he could be "reformed" to behave well in our universe?  I don't know, I'm just throwing out crazy ideas.

Quote

minor nickpick - Burnham reconfigures the original Discovery's quantum signature to match those of the alt universe's Discovery. Is a quantum signature so easy to alter? If so, you could have messes of alt-universe baddies in our 'original' universe.

That bothered me too.

Edited January 8, 2018 by AEMom
Forgot to add a quote

[Unusual Suspect]

... Boo on killing Culver. I get it, but #BuryYourGays is a thing, and I'm not happy. Still, I'm surprised that the Voq reveal happened so quickly. Discovery doesn't dick around, the plot moves.

Aside from that, this is a really interesting take on the Mirror Universe. It's always just been characters, this is a full ship. And the brief montage of mirrorizing the USS Discovery into the ISS Discovery was really cool. Also, Captain Killy was pretty hilarious and awesome.

[starri]

1 hour ago, xaxat said:

They had better fix Stammets/Culber.

Aaron Harbets, Gretchen Berg, and Wilson Cruz all said on Twitter last night that this isn't the end of their story.  And that they'd run the story by GLAAD before they committed to it.

Since every episode since "Magic to Make..." has been so strong, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

[staphdude]

If you are about to give some very disturbing news to a sweaty, twitchy long term Klingon detainee who is definitely hiding something- stay out of reach and prepare for shields up!

 

Tilly is great. Burnham  is either epically stupid or easily swayed by some sexy time. Boo either way. Lorca is ice cold but hours in a bug zapper may change his perspective.

[DrBriCa]

9 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

Since we are now in the Mirror Universe, I'd like to share my long-time theory that it was McCoy in The City... who started this alternate universe by saving Edith Keeler. The Terran Empire was the result of an Earth under Nazi rule and that's the origin of all the changes we've seen in it from Enterprise to DS9. That would explain why Vulcans don't have evil counterparts: their history was the same until they made first contact with Terrans.

The only thing that slightly goes against this is how Uhura was unable to reach any ships or satellites after McCoy changed time, whereas "Despite Yourself" now establishes that the communications systems and frequencies are similar enough between the Federation and the Terran Empire to still communicate easily. Of course, you could argue that the Terran Empire never expands anywhere near enough to the Guardian's planet to set up outposts nearby that Kirk's team could've accidentally detected, but as far as they knew, they were the only humans (+ one Vulcan hybrid) away from Earth in that brief alternate reality before retrieving McCoy. The Guardian is fairly clear that the USS Enterprise (and Earth as they knew it) was gone, whereas the ISS Enterprise would certainly be existent at that same moment somewhere in space, since the events of "Mirror, Mirror" will happen a few months later.

[Nanrad]

I can’t fault Burnham for having sex with ash. They’ve had a thing going on for a while emotionally, are each other’s confidants, and are I’m a highly stressed situation that they may be in for a while. She’s relieving stress and finding comfort in a familiar person. 

[starri]

I have to wonder how the show wants us to view Ash/Voq now.  Even if there wasn't a "real" Ash Tyler whose personality was put atop Voq's, the guy we've gotten to know has been a very fully-formed person, a guy who really likes Michael and who we have sympathy for because of his PTSD.  But it seems like the House of Mo'Kai did its job a little too well, since Voq's sleeper personality didn't immediately subsume Ash when L'Rell gave him the control phrase.  So perhaps there's some kind of war between the two to see who ends up the "real" person in control of the body.

But if we see Ash break his programming and become a real person, how do we root for him after seeing him murder someone in cold blood?  Even if there is a deus ex fungus coming, that's a lot for an audience to overlook.

[CanadaPhil]

1 hour ago, starri said:

I have to wonder how the show wants us to view Ash/Voq now.....

It is going to be very hard for Burnam to reconcile any of it once she learns the true nature of "Ash" really being Voq, a transformed Klingon.

On top of EATING her Step-Step Mom, he has now also murdered Culbert. 

[Latverian Diplomat]

8 hours ago, Colorado David said:

minor nickpick - Burnham reconfigures the original Discovery's quantum signature to match those of the alt universe's Discovery. Is a quantum signature so easy to alter? If so, you could have messes of alt-universe baddies in our 'original' universe.

Especially since, when they introduced the concept as a way of confirming that the ships they were seeing weren't from their universe, Burnham says "all matter native to our universe resonates with the same quantum signature, nothing can change it".

Sometimes it's like the writers don't even read their own scripts.

And it's unnecessary for Burnham to be able to alter it later, it took Saru a while to detect that, it's clearly not part of a standard scan. Saru only checked it because he was in serious WTF mode. 

[aemom]

6 hours ago, staphdude said:

Lorca is ice cold but hours in a bug zapper may change his perspective.

Bug zapper just cracked me up.  Very accurate description!

[paigow]

15 hours ago, marinw said:

 because the Mirror Universe may be homophobic. 

Depending on the Terran Empire pragmatism, it may end up being not homophobic at all...the rampant xenophobia may make homophobia irrelevant since any able bodied human willing to fight would be needed against overwhelming odds...

[MissLucas]

So, they verified Alt-Lorca and Alt-Burnham's fate but nobody bothered about Tyler right? I was kinda expecting all Terrans to faint at the sight of the emperor playing body-guard to Burnham, he!

Tyler is not Tyler with Voq's personality implanted but Voq who was surgically altered to look like Tyler and then had Tyler's personality placed atop? How's that supposed to work? Is the real Tyler dead or have the Klingons managed to capture his soul/essence/whatever so that he's still alive but in the wrong body? Or is he just a bit of programming installed in surgically altered Voq's brain? Are we supposed to think that both Voq and Tyler are trapped inside that altered body? I'm probably just so hung up on this because I'm not really a fan of mirror universe plots and need the distraction. Though I have to admit Captain Killy and shady Lorca being shady in his ready room were almost worth it.

[Emily Thrace]

15 hours ago, Lies said:

Dr Culber said "Ash's" bones and organs were surgically altered and that a new personality was inserted on top of the original one. So I think Voq was altered to look human and given the real Ash Tyler's physical qualities as well as his personality and memories. The plan was probably to make him a sleeper agent and for L'Rell to 'activate' him (bring Voq's supressed memories/personality back) once she got on board the Discovery, but something went wrong like she said.

Maybe we'll get an explanation as to why the sensors didn't identify Klingon DNA  in a later episode.

It occurs to me that a simpler explanation would be that they just implanted Voq's brain pattern in Ash Tyler and the real Voq is in stasis some where. I swear it happened in Voyager at one point.

[paigow]

The Mirror!Discovery crew is significantly different from Prime!Discovery. All the old Shenzou crew never transferred to Discovery....The risk of meeting their reflections is very high