Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Mellowyellow]

I really want to know if Oliver's "I do! I do!" was scripted or if it was a SA special delivery! 

[WindofChange]

I love how people gif just that one reaction and not the smile on Barry and Iris' face afterwards! Way to be selective, twitter!

Edited December 1, 2017 by WindofChange

[insomniadreams88]

I've seen tweets and comments acting like Oliver and Felicity (fictional characters!) and Arrow (another show entirely with different writers) are to blame for Barry and Iris and The Flash not having a reception in the midseason finale. Or complaining that Oliver and Felicity didn't invite Barry and Iris to their reception. It just doesn't make sense. 

Sometimes I'm amazed at the power people give Felicity and Olicity. 

[Chaser]

Iris and Barry are thinking "Damn...Oliver's off the market now."

Edited December 1, 2017 by Chaser

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, wingster55 said:

I suggest you look more closely if you want to make that assertion. 

WA fans ARE happy they're married, that we saw Dawn, the entire ceremony. 

But we can also express displeasure at those two essentially being plot devices, no one comforting either about what was supposed to be their happiest day, Barry not saying more than 10 words on his own damn show, Felicity interrupting the wedding, their first kiss being immediately blocked by OF and not even having a wedding party...unlike OF (the last part). 

Nah, I've looked closely enough. I see 10x more bitching about Oliver and Felicity than I do anything nice about what Barry and Iris did get - which is pretty much everything apart from a fully uninterrupted ceremony.

I never insinuated that WA fans aren't happy - just that there seems to be SO MUCH COMPLAINING.

Also, can you not assume that Iris and Barry were comforted at some point off screen? A whole lot of time passed between when the Nazis broke up their wedding and we next saw them. A change of clothes, enough time that Iris had apparently asked Felicity about tracking the Nazis several times and was bored enough to be spinning around in her chair. They just didn't show it because plot. And ya'll got a bachelor and bachelorette parties, and most of the first hour of the crossover. That so much time has been dedicated to that wedding already might be why they're not doing more on the show (assuming they aren't and that it just hasn't been spoiled yet)

[lemotomato]

9 minutes ago, wingster55 said:

But we can also express displeasure 

Of course you can. And the rest of us can keep saying we don't agree and think the complaints are blown out of proportion. 

[EmilyBettFan]

22 minutes ago, wingster55 said:

I suggest you look more closely if you want to make that assertion. 

WA fans ARE happy they're married, that we saw Dawn, the entire ceremony. 

But we can also express displeasure at those two essentially being plot devices, no one comforting either about what was supposed to be their happiest day, Barry not saying more than 10 words on his own damn show, Felicity interrupting the wedding, their first kiss being immediately blocked by OF and not even having a wedding party...unlike OF (the last part). 

WestAllen had the poster, they had the get together before hand for the girls and they had the fitting for the groom. They had a rehearsal dinner and they actually had a real wedding up until it was crashed by nazis. 

Oliver and Felicity got the tail end of the crossover and they are getting a wedding party on their show. 

Lets not blame Olicity for the shortcomings of WestAllen. It's known to be not the biggest ship. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by EmilyBettFan

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

They didn't, really. Both their weddings were destroyed. They're not getting a honeymoon. They were shit on, basically.

So does it matter more that they have the wedding or get married?

24 minutes ago, WindofChange said:

I love how people gif just that one reaction and not the smile on Barry and Iris' face afterwards! Way to be selective, twitter!

IMO the first gif is them being confused about what is happening and then waiting to see what Oliver does. When he says yes they smile with them and are clearly happy for their friends.

[wingster55]

19 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Of course you can. And the rest of us can keep saying we don't agree and think the complaints are blown out of proportion. 

Sure, but I keep seeing people getting bothered at the fact that others have anti-Felicity sentiments. As though that opinion isn't valid just because it isn't yours. 

Quote

It's known to be not the biggest ship. 

Then why was it promoted so much? Because it's the ship on the most popular show. It was a bait and switch, all the promo, very little substance. 

Quote

Also, can you not assume that Iris and Barry were comforted at some point off screen?

But we need to see this. Some things on tv can be assumed to have happened...other times it needs to be seen. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by wingster55

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, wingster55 said:

Sure, but I keep seeing people getting bothered at the fact that others have anti-Felicity sentiments. As though that opinion isn't valid just because it isn't yours. 

If you want to think Felicity was rude, fine. But you have articles like that io9 piece posted above criticizing her for telling Iris she was glowing, or for answering a question that Iris asked for the answer to that are just so OTT it's difficult to not call them out as ridiculous. 

Quote

Then why was it promoted so much? Because it's the ship on the most popular show. It was a bait and switch, all the promo, very little substance. 

It was promoted so much and still only managed to basically get what amounts to The Flash audience to tune in. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO the first gif is them being confused about what is happening and then waiting to see what Oliver does. When he says yes they smile with them and are clearly happy for their friends.

It's not just Iris and Barry, Felicity shares their expression of uncertainty as to what's happening and you can see all their happy expressions — Barry, Iris, Felicity — after Oliver takes Felicity's hand. I'm not sure where this idea that they are pissed is coming from. Stop projecting, LOL! Also, this idea that Candice and Grant themselves look pissed at having the WestAllen wedding interrupted. I really don't think they are. I mean, they knew the script. Are you then saying your faves aren't good enough actors that they can't hide what they feel?

Edited December 1, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva

[WindofChange]

1 minute ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Also, this idea that Candice and Grant themselves look pissed at having their wedding interrupted.

I mean... it just makes them look unprofessional so why think this at all? Lol

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

It's not just Iris and Barry, Felicity shares their expression of uncertainty as to what's happening and you can see all their happy expressions — Barry, Iris, Felicity — after Oliver takes Felicity's hand. I'm not sure where this idea that they are pissed is coming from.

Even if they were meant to show they were annoyed or whatever, it clearly isn't something either one of them is going to hold a grudge over. 

[Trini]

EW Spoiler Room:

Quote

Please find out if Wentworth Miller has any role in the upcoming animated Freedom Fighters series. I think a lot of us would love to see [Leo and The Ray’s] love carry over! — Rusty

No official word yet on whether Wentworth Miller, or even Jeremy Jordan (a.k.a Freedom Fighter General Schott), will lend their voices to the animated series — at least not in the first six episodes, anyway. Rumor has it the show is still figuring out the continuity of The Ray’s timeline given Melissa Benoist is slated to voice Overgirl, even though the character died in the crossover.

Seriously? This thing is still figuring out the story? They already had footage at Comic Con, I thought they'd just be finishing up animation/editing by now.

[leopardprint]

3 minutes ago, Trini said:

EW Spoiler Room:

Seriously? This thing is still figuring out the story? They already had footage at Comic Con, I thought they'd just be finishing up animation/editing by now.

Holy crap they are terrible planners. They are just now deciding how they tie together? 

[insomniadreams88]

5 minutes ago, Trini said:

Seriously? This thing is still figuring out the story? They already had footage at Comic Con, I thought they'd just be finishing up animation/editing by now.

I'd like to say I'm surprised, but I'm not. 

[johntfs]

On 11/30/2017 at 11:30 AM, tarotx said:

The only thing I hated was that it was Nazis. They could have had the same hate but call them something else. The heroes leaving all those poor souls at the concentration camp to save their own loved ones, I'm totally not big on that at all. It makes them all look selfish and yuck. If I could fanwave maybe this hate group isn't quite as evil as the Nazis I think I'd swallow it better

What else would they have been called?  Why do these differently named people have such dislike for others?  How did this Earth get this way?  Could this all be some kind of misunderstanding?  Is it possible we can negotiate peace with these Earth-Xers?  Perhaps some of them are good and kind even though they wear that odd symbol?  Oh, and provide all the answers to all those various questions in such a way that they'll easily fit into the 42 minutes you have for any given show.

The second we see Earth-X with the red sky and big-ass swastikas, we know pretty much everything we need to know about Earth-X, no verbal exposition required.  While a bit of detail might need to appear, we know they're Nazis.  We know who Nazis hate.  We can even take a decent guess as to what happened (Hitler won WWII).  Also, no this isn't a misunderstanding.  No, we can't negotiate peace with them.  No, there are no good Nazis.  The only way this gets resolved in Earth-1s favor is if our heroes, punch, kick and shoot the holy living fuck out of these evil bastards until they're dead, unconscious or surrender.

As for the folks in the concentration camps, there's a limit to what even superbeings can do.  Trying to save "everybody" is a sure way to fail at saving any body.  Besides, with the Fuhrer dead, Overgirl atomized, the Reverse Flash fled and even Prometheus committing suicide, the Earth-X Reich is probably in a bit of tizzy trying to figure out which power-hungry asshole general will seize what passes for the throne.  There's a pretty good chance the Resistance will make quite a bit of headway.  Also, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Cisco and Wells-2 have given several other Earths (especially the one with Breecher and Gypsy) the dimensional coordinates of Earth-X as well as the knowledge that the Xers have a functioning dimensional gateway and are thus a threat to all the other Earths.  I imagine steps will be taken.  Violent steps if I know Breecher.

Edited December 4, 2017 by johntfs

[apinknightmare]

Quote

Holy crap they are terrible planners. They are just now deciding how they tie together? 

It can't really tie together - if it's a prequel, then the Freedom Fighters failed, since they hadn't beaten Oliver or Overgirl before they got killed on Earth-1. It can't happen after, since, well...Dark Arrow and Overgirl are dead. And Nazi Barry - who's in The Ray, wasn't anywhere to be seen in the crossover. And Eobard - who wasn't in The Ray - wasn't in the cartoon.

I'd have thought once they decided that Oliver and Kara on E-X had to die at the end of the crossover that they'd be like, "Okay, these are separate stories."

[Mrs. de Winter]

2 minutes ago, wingster55 said:

Then why was it promoted so much?

Because it was the hook that got them all together for the cross over.  And it happened in the first hour and sharing the fact that Barry and Iris were getting married did not give away any substantial information about the rest of the cross over episodes?  

3 minutes ago, wingster55 said:

all the promo, very little substance

Lack of substance when it comes to Westallen is a function of the Flash writing staff and/or unrealistically high expectations of them when it comes to how they are going to write the relationship and its value relative to other priorities.   Perhaps now that AK is gone and not firing (and harassing) people in the writing room on a regular basis that will improve.

[statsgirl]

They really need to do something about the promotions for these shows.  I have the feeling that WestAllen fans would be less upset if they hadn't been given the impression that the crossover this year was going to be about the WestAllen wedding and expected more screentime for their ship. They got pretty much the whole Supergirl episode, multiple mentions and the marriage at the end.  Those fandoms who weren't expecting it to be all about them ended up less upset.  In hindsight, I guess I should have been more chill when the poster came out.  Black Canary Mr. Terrific and Wild Dog were all on it and yet they got barely any screentime. 

I'd be surprised if GG and CP were so unprofessional as to think the four show crossover was going to be about their characters.  They are part of only one show among the four.

I know that they do lot of things wrong but I'm happy for the EPs that reviewers are saying that it's a better Justice League movie than the movie.  I think this crossover earned the praise.  From Forbes

Quote

You had, offhand, at least five LGBT superheroes, at least two Jewish protagonists, at least one Muslim and a crap-ton of “not a white guy” stars and co-stars, all initially coming together to celebrate a mixed-race wedding, going up against explicitly racist/sexist Nazis (headed by evil doppelgangers of the very white/very blonde Arrow and Supergirl), with all the modern-day topicality that entails. Yes, the villains were still an invading outside force, but the threat felt a lot closer to home than the intergalactic one posed by Thanos or Darkseid.

In a way that puts both the DC Films universe and the MCU to shame, the CW DC TV world (especially Supergirl and Legends of Tomorrow) has thrived on bluntly tackling the modern-day politics and past-tense historical horrors without distancing metaphor and with a deluge of "not a straight white male" heroes and villains. And Crisis On Earth X, where we learned that Felicity’s grandparents were Holocaust survivors and which ended with scenes of alternate universe Nazis gunning down innocent people in the city streets, was a lot grimmer than it might have been even two years ago. If big blockbusters are going to attempt to remain relevant, they have to be at least as honest about race and gender as, well, Barry Sonnenfeld's Wild Wild West and DreamWorks Animation's Monsters vs. Aliens.

For Barry, some advice about what he should have done (about 45 seconds in)

[Mary0360]

To be honest I found Barry letting a Nazi walk free to commit more evil more offensive then Oliver and Felicity getting married. 

[apinknightmare]

6 minutes ago, johntfs said:

As for the folks in the concentration camps, there's a limit to what even superbeings can do.  Trying to save "everybody" is a sure way to fail at saving any body.  Besides, with the Fuhrer dead, Overgirl atomized, the Reverse Flash fled and even Prometheus committing suicide, the Earth-X Reich is probably in a bit of tizzy trying to figure out which power-hungry asshole general will seize what passes for the throne.  There's a pretty good chance the Resistance will make quite a bit of headway.

I think the issue could've been easily solved by having one of the heroes voice a desire to help, and have someone else present the logistical challenges. Instead no one ever mentions helping those people, and the first thing Oliver said when they realized they were in a concentration camp was that they had to get home to their loved ones ASAP. 

[legaleagle53]

50 minutes ago, johntfs said:

The second we see Earth-X with the red sky and big-ass swastikas, we know pretty much everything we need to know about Earth-X, no verbal exposition required.  While a bit of detail might need to appear, we know they're Nazis.  We know who Nazis hate.  We can even take a decent guess as to what happened (Hitler won WWII). 

That was also made clear by the fact that Earth-X was referred to in one scene by its name in German, Erde-X.  I personally thought that was a nice touch that spelled out that these really were Nazis.

Edited December 1, 2017 by legaleagle53

[Mrs. de Winter]

2 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I think the issue could've been easily solved by having one of the heroes voice a desire to help, and have someone else present the logistical challenges.

This would have helped.  My own justification is that they know better than to try and interfere in a world that is not theirs because even good intentions could have bad repercussions.  Or at least people without the initials BA know this.

Speaking of which - if the girl we saw really is Barry and Iris's daughter should she really be time traveling and (trying to) impact what happens in the past?  Are there no rules for this type of thing (I no longer watch the Flash so sorry of this was covered)? 

[Mary0360]

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

 

I started off wanting EarthXFelicity to be some kickass hacker but I kinda loved what they did give us. Even at her lowest, most down trodden EarthXFelicity was kind and tried to help those weaker than her. For me that was so much more moving than her running around kicking ass (which she totally did as Original Felicity anyway).

I agree with this whole heartily. She had very little in this world to give and what little she had she was willing to give away selflessly to help young starving children. I also like to think that Olivers "it's the strongs duty to protect the weak" was him encouraging her to be strong and keep fighting. I found that scene oddly powerful and moving despite how visceral and awful the circumstances were. 

[leopardprint]

8 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I think the issue could've been easily solved by having one of the heroes voice a desire to help, and have someone else present the logistical challenges. Instead no one ever mentions helping those people, and the first thing Oliver said when they realized they were in a concentration camp was that they had to get home to their loved ones ASAP. 

Or say they would come back to get them? I can't remember if Stein & Co. knew that the Xers were at that moment at Star Labs with Felicity, Iris and Kara and thus the immediate urgency to get back? 

[Hiveminder]

52 minutes ago, Mrs. de Winter said:

 

Speaking of which - if the girl we saw really is Barry and Iris's daughter should she really be time traveling and (trying to) impact what happens in the past?  Are there no rules for this type of thing (I no longer watch the Flash so sorry of this was covered)? 

She’s Barry’s daughter. She’s probably already erased three children. 

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, wingster55 said:

But we need to see this. Some things on tv can be assumed to have happened...other times it needs to be seen. 

 

I agree that some things need to be seen so that the audience can get into the character's headspace after traumatic events but I don't think there was really any confusion this time around for how a couple is feeling after their wedding is invaded by Nazis.  Iris said it herself.  "You've got to be kidding me." 

 It's not really anything the audience is left guessing.  Of course they are not pleased, but they and everyone around them are professional superhero so yeah, crap happens,  but their friends and family survived unscathed (well, not the pastor but how close were they really with him? lol)  and it's not like the postponed wedding made them doubt that they wanted to get married.  There wasn't really anything for the audience to learn by having the other characters ask them how they are feeling. 

Plus even if we didn't need confirmation to guess their mindset, Iris and Barry checked in with each other a couple times.  I'd think that was more than enough. I don't think there would have been much added value to the crossover narrative in repeating those beats with people less important to the couple.  And really more likely the alternative would have been to toss Iris and Barry talking to each other and replace those scenes with say Felicity comforting Barry or Caitlin offering a shoulder to lean on to Iris while she reminded her that her Ronnie DIED on their wedding day, lol.  (And technically I blame Barry for that given the order of what went down in season one)

 

40 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I think the issue could've been easily solved by having one of the heroes voice a desire to help, and have someone else present the logistical challenges. Instead no one ever mentions helping those people, and the first thing Oliver said when they realized they were in a concentration camp was that they had to get home to their loved ones ASAP. 

When they were escaping from the camp, I wasn't bothered that they weren't trying to save everyone.  They were the only ones up for immediate execution and the only real way to save everyone is to take the system down.  So I get it.  But it did bother me that they blew up the resistance's big secret weapon and the only other secret weapon, The Ray, was leaving their world altogether.  I also wish they'd just had him say something about how they had plans in motion all hinging on taking out the evil wave rider and the leaders so that we could feel more certain about the success of the resistance.  

[KenyaJ]

41 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

(well, not the pastor but how close were they really with him? lol) 

Not very. He said at the beginning of the ceremony that he didn't know them well. When I watched on Monday night, I thought that was a weird thing for him to mention at that moment, even if it was true. But after seeing the clip @apinknightmare posted earlier today (Iris trying to get a priest to marry her and Barry after a funeral), the fact that the pastor didn't know them well cracks me up. I'm imagining a montage where Iris hunts down all the clergy in Central City until she finds someone willing to marry her and Barry.

[bijoux]

This is lovely.

[tennisgurl]

I can get not liking a plot element like the double marriage (it wasn't my favorite thing either), and complaining about it is just fine, but I am honestly BLOWN AWAY by how pissed off some people are! Like, in all of the things that happened in this cross over (Nazi attacks, Steins death, AU Snart, millions of fight scenes) and how much they did right by so many characters, people can only focus on this one, five minute scene. I mean, Iris and Barry are still married, and they had their whole big celebration, this was really just ceremonial anyway. If anyone got screwed over, it was Olicity. But, people just went totally insane over this one little thing, instead of talking about the many awesome things that happened. Like, Reddit is doing some kind of weird mass virtual suicide or something, over FIVE SECONDS OF SCREEN TIME! I just dont get it. I am honestly more annoyed that the show did this (and they had to have known what the response would be!) than that the characters did, because now, instead of talking about 4 hours of Superhero goodness, all anyone will talk about was one scene where all that happened was stuff that everyone knew would happen anyway. 

I get not liking something, but to just completely throw a whole show out because of one element that isn't even all that offensive? Just seems sad really. 

[WindofChange]

33 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

If anyone got screwed over, it was Olicity.

If we really want to make a tally

Westallen:

• A full season build up to the wedding (episodes 2-7) including Barry/Iris trying to get married an entire episode (4)
• Bachelor/Bachelorette parties
• We got to see a rehearsal dinner and see Joe make a speech about Barry/Iris' love and we got to see the girls at the nail salon
• A huge wedding at a church with loved ones invited
• Iris got to wear the dress she always dreamed of wearing
• They got to tell each other their vows which were really sweet
• Iris got to walk down the aisle
• In the background of the double wedding
• All the visual promo leading up to the wedding including posters

Olicity:

• We got build up in the crossover episodes (3 episodes - one of which was Felicity rejecting Oliver's proposal so not the greatest)
• Olicity gets a reception with a first dance, cake, and all of their loved ones
• Half assed wedding with no one invited (416) Felicity didn't really walk down the aisle, it was interrupted, and it wasn't even a real wedding that would've ended up in marriage it was just a ruse. Felicity even wore an ill fitting dress
• We got to hear beautiful vows from both Oliver/Felicity (416)
• Their best friend got to officiate the wedding
• Were in the foreground of the double wedding but we didn't even get to hear Felicity's vows
• No promo, no posters, nothing for the wedding, and while everyone is talking about Olicity after the crossover it's not really in the best way, it's to the point where people disregard all of Felicity's accomplishments and brush Barry's biggest screw up under the rug because poor buddy got his spotlight taken away from him!

So yeah it really does baffle me when people are upset about how WA was robbed when Olicity got less in this whole wedding ordeal. Alas, I'm just happy my OTP is married. Does this mean I have low standards? I guess. But hey, there are more important things in life than having the spotlight. I think both Westallen/Olicity understand that too. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by WindofChange

[Mellowyellow]

They are upset because the Olicity marriage upsets comic canon and how dare they get the same focus as the comic canon pair who is just frankly not as popular and don't generate as much buzz. I think a lot of fans wanted to beleive that WestAllen are as popular as Olicity and the WestAllen wedding was supposed to be proof of comic canon superiority but the reality is that whilst Flash is rated higher WestAllen are just not that popular and not worth focusing an entire crossover on.

So as usual there is a massive fit and a public lynching of Felicity who is seen as the ultimate threat to comic canon.

I think there was always a hope that the show would swerve. Instead Oliver slapped on his heart eyes and insisted Felicity was the only one for him. The crossover killed all their hopes and dreams hence the meltdown.

What makes me laugh is why no one brings up the fact that a version of Barry spent an entire season trying to kill Iris and stabbed HR thinking it was her he was stabbing. 

Sure Felicity is a villain for momentarily interrupting a slap dash ceremony. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by Mellowyellow

[Featherhat]

51 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Like, Reddit is doing some kind of weird mass virtual suicide or something, over FIVE SECONDS OF SCREEN TIME! I just dont get it. I am honestly more annoyed that the show did this (and they had to have known what the response would be!) than that the characters did, because now, instead of talking about 4 hours of Superhero goodness, all anyone will talk about was one scene where all that happened was stuff that everyone knew would happen anyway

Reddit would have done a virtual mass suicide for anything positive about Olicity these episodes anyway, they always seem to, the double wedding just gave them even more of an excuse and yeah I think they should have timed it differently but eh, it's happened. The only way they would have liked it is if XOliver  or Fake!XOliver had executed Felicity in the stripped pyjamas/E1Felicity. Or declared his love of BS and run off to find her. I'm sure the showrunners knew about the projected response and did it anyway, why is anyone's guess. Probably because they welcome the media (pardon the pun) firestorm and publicity for the show and seem to enjoy trolling. Hey maybe even as an excuse to break Olicity up ala everyone's one sided response to the BMD but I don't think so at this point. 

I didn't mind the relative lack of focus on Barry, he's usually the complete centre of attention and I'm sure will be again next time, nice to let others have a turn including Iris finally having a big role in an Xover for once and I loved Alex being included in the main group, which is natural because it was focused on Kara's life. Even she and Sara had drama and the Jax/Stein stuff because of the dying. WA don't need relationship drama because they're already at the altar and no one is lying about a secret kid. Although Probably!Dawn will certainly become a thing at some point this season. 

Do we know for sure WestAllen aren't getting a celebration on Flash? Seems like there should be some follow up. 

One of my favourite parts is so many people saying they want to check out or recheck out LOT and DP is getting the praise he deserves for the role, which is awesome.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Featherhat

[ruby24]

The Flash is going to have to be the center of attention on its own show for next season at least, because it will be the 100th episode.

But I kind of wonder if they'll move the crossover next year, since the CW president acknowledged they considered doing that, given that the time when they need the ratings boost most is when the shows come back after the mid-winter break.

I don't know what they'll do next time around, but it seems to me like it's time for everybody to go over to National City and allow the rest of the Supergirl cast to be more involved. Martian Manhunter needs to be in these things.

And Black Lightning will be on the air by then, which is interesting. I know they said that one's in a separate universe, but there's no real reason he couldn't be included too at that point.

[Midnight Lullaby]

6 hours ago, johntfs said:

What would they have been called?  Why do these differently named people have such dislike for others?  How did this Earth get this way?  Could this all be some kind of misunderstanding?  Is it possible we can negotiate peace with these Earth-Xers?  Perhaps some of them are good and kind even though they wear that odd symbol?  Oh, and provide all the answers to all those various questions in such a way that they'll easily fit into the 42 minutes you have for any given show.

The second we see Earth-X with the red sky and big-ass swastikas, we know pretty much everything we need to know about Earth-X, no verbal exposition required.  While a bit of detail might need to appear, we know they're Nazis.  We know who Nazis hate.  We can even take a decent guess as to what happened (Hitler won WWII).  Also, no this isn't a misunderstanding.  No, we can't negotiate peace with them.  No, there are no good Nazis.  The only way this gets resolved in Earth-1s favor is if our heroes, punch, kick and shoot the holy living fuck out of these evil bastards until they're dead, unconscious or surrender.

As for the folks in the concentration camps, there's a limit to what even superbeings can do.  Trying to save "everybody" is a sure way to fail at saving any body.  Besides, with the Fuhrer dead, Overgirl atomized, the Reverse Flash fled and even Prometheus committing suicide, the Earth-X Reich is probably in a bit of tizzy trying to figure out which power-hungry asshole general will seize what passes for the throne.  There's a pretty good chance the Resistance will make quite a bit of headway.  Also, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Cisco and Wells-2 have given several other Earths (especially the one with Breecher and Gypsy) the dimensional coordinates of Earth-X as well as the knowledge that the Xers have a functioning dimensional gateway and are thus a threat to all the other Earths.  I imagine steps will be taken.  Violent steps if I know Breecher.

If you show a bunch of people that want to invade our earth and cut Supergirl open to take her heart the audience is going to accept those are the villains, we aren’t idiots. They did the same thing with the Dominators last year and it was no problem. They wanted the Nazis for shock value which is questionable. Also there are journalists today making fluff pieces about how Nazis are people just like us so I wouldn’t feel so sure about using Nazis in the superficial way the crossover did and thinking I sent the right message. Anyone who has watched a documentary, read about what really happened and listened to the survivors knows this CW version of the Nazis is ridiculous, cartoonish but it’s obvious it was going to be like that. The problem is the impression this can leave on people that are ignorant on the subject. If they were able to send a strong message I don’t think I would have seen so many antisemitic comments because I get hating a fictional character but if you realize what Nazis did to real people you think about it before wanting to be associated with them. And if you can’t send a strong message stay away from history and don’t use real people’s pain for entertainmen. That’s my opinion.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[tv echo]

I think the EPs made Earth-X Kara a General (and not the Fuhrer) just so they could add that homage to Superman II, by having Kara hover outside the Wellenreiter and say to XKara, "General, would you care to step outside?"

[tv echo]

The CW’s Smart Superhero Crossovers Reveal A Fatal Flaw in Netflix Binge Watching
Liz Shannon Miller  Nov 30, 2017 
http://www.indiewire.com/2017/11/dc-cw-crossover-netflix-watching-1201902676/

Quote

Netflix was supposed to make watching TV easier than ever. But occasionally it turns the experience into a scavenger hunt, and a tedious one at that.

The most recent example comes from a fun yearly tradition between the four series that constitute The CW’s “Arrow”-verse: a mega-crossover event that blends the Greg Berlanti-produced quartet of DC Comics dramas for an epic, effects-laden adventure.
*  *  * 
But while fans watching this week were able to enjoy a seamless viewing experience, on par with catching a three-hour movie, future audiences won’t have that option. Instead, figuring out how to piece together “Crisis on Earth-X” will be a far more complicated endeavor.

That’s because each of the four parts of “Crisis” is technically an episode of “Supergirl,” “Arrow,” “The Flash,” or “Legends of Tomorrow,” shows that become available on Netflix in the U.S. eight days after they wrap for the season (per a massive streaming deal between the streamer and The CW). Thus, the four parts will be awkwardly split up amongst their respective series.
*  *  *
For now, The CW has avoided that complication on its official CW TV site and app (ad-supported, but does not require a cable subscription to watch) by packaging “Crisis on Earth-X” as a four-part viewing experience. But this is a temporary situation, as only the five most recent episodes of each show are available for viewing before expiring. Eventually, they’ll only be viewable on Netflix.

To understand just what a pain in the ass this will make future viewing, consider last year’s crossover event, “Invasion!” (There were aliens.) The three-part story (following a brief tease in “Supergirl”) took place across episodes of “The Flash,” “Arrow” and “Legends.” When watching on Netflix, there is a title card that comes up at the end of the “Flash’s” “Invasion!” episode, announcing that the story is “to be continued on ‘Arrow.'”

That at least gives viewers a general sense of what they need to do next: go back to browse on Netflix, search for “Arrow,” and try to guess or remember which season the next episode in the crossover happens. (Netflix will provide no hints as to where exactly to find it, beyond the fact that the “Arrow” episode is also entitled “Invasion!”)

And that’s presuming you’ve already disabled Netflix’s auto-play, which will otherwise catapult you beyond the end of the “Invasion” storyline and back into the standalone “Flash” series. That’s also presuming you knew to watch “The Flash” first, since the episode names don’t indicate which episode is Part 1 vs. Part 2. And you have to repeat the whole process all over again to watch the third part of the storyline, which appears as “Legends of Tomorrow” Season 2 Episode 7.
*  *  *
There’s a completely legitimate argument to be made that there may be fans of one “Arrow”-verse series who don’t care about any of the others, and so trying to force the connection between all four shows upon those viewers would be unwelcome. There’s also another completely legitimate argument to make about the fact that the CW aims to incentivize watching these special events the week of their airing, as opposed to waiting for Netflix, thus boosting their ratings and digital ad buys.

Edited December 1, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Ask Matt: ‘Big Bang’ Fatigue, ‘Suits’ Minus Meghan, ‘Arrow’-verse Crossover, Mr. ‘Secretary,’ ‘Longmire,’ and More
Matt Roush December 01, 2017 8:14 am
https://www.tvinsider.com/652401/ask-matt-big-bang-fatigue-suits-minus-meghan-arrow-verse-crossover-mr-secretary-longmire-and-more/

Quote

Question: It seems that on all fronts, the four-part Arrow-verse crossover, “Crisis on Earth-X,” was a resounding hit and some of the best television I’ve seen in years. The action was fantastic on each part, and demonstrated how a Justice League movie can be. Not only was the event outstanding, the way they modified preceding episodes of each series to give key actors time away from their principle shows to film this was magnificent and unobtrusive to the current storylines as production on all series continued while filming the crossover episodes. What happened in the crossover will have lasting impact in five of the six Arrow-verse shows (CW seed cartoons Vixen and The Ray are included in Arrow-verse cannon.) Victor Garber did some outstanding work, and if Maggie Smith can get an Emmy for her Downton Abbey one-liners, then Dominic Purcell should be gifted a nomination too.

Though I am typically opposed to Emmy manipulation, I’m hoping these episodes will fall under the miniseries category—especially since none of the show went by their original name in the title sequence. Several Emmy nominations for acting, special effects, costume design, and producing should be granted, but I’m afraid they won’t. The network, and genre of the crossover, seem to be often overlooked, and because one of the main writers and executive producers was recently fired for harassment, that may keep those Emmy voters who may have been open to reviewing turning away after all. Any insights to what can be done for this outstanding work? — Brian

Matt Roush: The feedback I’ve been seeing has been very positive on what turned out to be a quite eventful stunt. Having entertained the fan base will have to be its own reward, I’m afraid. Even if The CW tried to enter these episodes as a limited series (the current terminology), I’d bet the TV Academy would throw the rulebook at them. Regardless, it would be an uphill battle to get awards recognition for shows like these. (Even Wonder Woman will likely go begging when it comes to major movie nominations.) With very rare exceptions (a Golden Globe for breakout ingénues), The CW is pretty much invisible to industry voters, and combine that with the superhero genre, this is a job even Superman would shudder to take on.

Edited December 1, 2017 by tv echo

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

But it did bother me that they blew up the resistance's big secret weapon and the only other secret weapon, The Ray, was leaving their world altogether.

Yeah, I thought Earth-X's Red Tornado was kewl, though he didn't have the cape. But it was Leo who was leaving their world, not The Ray. The Ray stayed behind, even though Earth-1 was his home; I think Leo went to Earth-1 for Mick, and also, it will be the final episodes for Wentworth Miller, I think? Maybe Leo and Snart will meet up?

And I'll throw in my .02 for whatever it's worth. I love Barry and Iris (never thought their relationship was squicky, incesty, [insert other euphemism]) and can see that Grant and Candice have oodles of chemistry. I do wish they'd show them more passionate, but that's a rant for The Flash thread, and hopefully, with that asswipe Kriesberg gone, maybe that will now change. I also love Oliver and Felicity. I don't know if that makes me a shipper if I love a couple? But Smallville burned me BUT GOOD, so I haven't invested in any romantic couple since.

That said, I had NO problem with how the cross-over ended. I didn't think Felicity was rude or as the people losing their shit in the entertainment media are saying, a monster or worse than the fucking NAZIS. Some of them, who are posting those last five to 10 seconds, remind me of those people who watch a movie or show, on dvd, frame-by-frame, looking for flaws/goofs/"proof" to go "AHA!!!! You See? THERE? Right THERE!!!"

As for Amell's acting with respect to his Earth-X Oliver. I don't think he phoned it in or was even wooden. I think it was a very deliberate choice to show he really didn't have any emotions. Then the writing ruined all that with showing that Overgirl was his wife and that he wuved her. Since this show likes to rip off from original source material, they should have just made Earth-X the Justice Lords*. Nazis need not apply. And the plot would have worked just as well.

*Justice League, Season Two: "A Better World."

Edited December 1, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[Sakura12]

I'm not as upset that they are leaving Earth X to fend for themselves, they did kill the Fuhrer, Overgirl and got rid of RF and killed a bunch of soldiers. That takes out the 3 biggest leaders of that Earth. The Freedom fighters need to just destroy the rest of the soldiers to free their world. 

[Primal Slayer]

That's all that we saw, I am sure they have their own version of  a Killer Frost, Canary, and other versions just waiting on standby. They could've at least helped them secure the main stronghold. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

They could've at least helped them secure the main stronghold. 

There wasn't time as General Schott lied and didn't give them the hour they needed, and sent in Red Tornado to blow up the breach that would have let them return to Earth-1.  The way he was portrayed, even if Oliver, Flash and the rest, helped them, Schott would have blown up the breach while they were doing so.

[Primal Slayer]

6 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

There wasn't time as General Schott lied and didn't give them the hour they needed, and sent in Red Tornado to blow up the breach that would have let them return to Earth-1.  The way he was portrayed, even if Oliver, Flash and the rest, helped them, Schott would have blown up the breach while they were doing so.

I was hoping for at least a line of them offering to help clean up after everything was said and done and The Ray being like "thanks, we got this handled, I got some help on the other side blah blah blah" instead of they defeat them on E1 and go on with life.

[Delphi]

13 hours ago, WindofChange said:

 

• Did any of you find it really really odd that they didn't help said people in the concentration camps? But maybe they didn't because they were worried that they'd get killed for trying to escape idk

Not really,  it's a war,  much like chess sometimes you have to make sacrifices in order to win.  I know that sounds horrible,  but that's what happens.   Winning is the goal,  people are going to have too be left behind. 

 

8 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I was hoping for at least a line of them offering to help clean up after everything was said and done and The Ray being like "thanks, we got this handled, I got some help on the other side blah blah blah" instead of they defeat them on E1 and go on with life.

I don't feel like it's the job of our earth 1 heroes to save earth x.  Earth x just crashed into their lives and started fucking stuff up,  I feel bad that earth x sucks so bad,  but I don't think I have the right to expect the various teams running around solving every problem on 51 various dimensions. 

[BunsenBurner]

Trying to do this on my phone is ridiculous. 

 

The minister was The Greatest American Hero. He was a goofball in a red suit that was too big on him. He was always saying the wrong thing. His delivery of not really knowing them was typical of something he would say. The writers wrote him well. He was a good Easter egg. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by BunsenBurner

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, Delphi said:

I don't feel like it's the job of our earth 1 heroes to save earth x.  Earth x just crashed into their lives and started fucking stuff up,  I feel bad that earth x sucks so bad,  but I don't think I have the right to expect the various teams running around solving every problem on 51 various dimensions. 

I think it is different when you come across a problem vs. trying to look for the problems. If Earth 1 was having issues and Kara knew about it, I'd expect her to go help if she could, vice versa. Half the gang was on E-X  and saw the issues first hand. 

[Primal Slayer]

I could care less about the double wedding, wasnt a big deal for me but I think either way it happened one side would be pissed. If it were Olicity in the same situation and WA got in on their big moment, I think plenty of Olicity fans would pissed. 

[Sakura12]

Are people still going about the double wedding? The most it got out of me was "eh, okay" I'm still mourning Stein. Waiting to get to know Leo Snart a little more and wondering when Sara and Alex can meet again. 

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

Are people still going about the double wedding? The most it got out of me was "eh, okay" I'm still mourning Stein. Waiting to get to know Leo Snart a little more and wondering when Sara and Alex can meet again. 

I am pissed that Wentworth left when we could get both Snart and a gay Snart at that? I wonder if he and Mick were in a relationship on E-X.