S02.E09: Number Two

[Clanstarling]

14 minutes ago, Paloma said:

Absolutely. I eat chocolate in various forms (especially ice cream, M&Ms, and pastries) when experiencing stress or sadness, and I try to hide this behavior from my husband. Occasionally he sees the wrappers or other evidence, and I feel ashamed even though he jokes about it. (He is naturally slim and I am 30+ pounds overweight, so I don't really see it as a joke.) It definitely feels like an addiction and can be almost as difficult to break as alcohol and drugs--maybe more difficult in some ways because food is part of everyone's daily life. I consider it a victory when I bring home some form of chocolate and eat part of it but then put the rest down the sink disposal or in the garbage, instead of eating it all as I usually do. So I was applauding Kate for walking away from the full buffet plate and hope this eventually leads to a breakthrough in her eating habits.

Exactly. You can't really go "on the wagon" with food - because pretty much any food can be binged unhealthily. Also, few people bring six packs of beer (or whatever) to share with everyone at work - but cookies, doughnuts, cakes, candy - they are everywhere and it takes an iron resolve not to eat any of it.

And yes, it's a victory when you can only eat a bit. When I'm desperate for, I try to with stick things I can get in  individual serving packages - but even those can be too large, or hard to find. Those tiny ice cream cartons have saved me more than once.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Cardie]

I thought the exchange of glances between Randall and Kate at the hospital was Randall asking if Kevin would fully recover--and go back to football--and Kate saying, "no."

[red12]

On 11/21/2017 at 9:22 PM, chaifan said:

Rebecca & Jack's parking lot hug - I took this as a sign that they were doing a good job holding it together in front of the kids, but they knew Kevin's knee was a lot more serious than they were letting on.  So they just needed to go outside to have a moment to themselves to be sad away from the kids.

I don't think we got a lot of background on Kate.  Nothing that would really explain her being the miserable adult that she is.  And I was thinking for a moment that the Berkeley audition tape was going to go in a whole different direction - the first few seconds (to me) were awful - screechy and off pitch.  It got better, but I don't see that being Berkeley level singing.  I thought at first that she was just going to be an awful singer, that Rebecca then got her vocal coaching, or something like that. 

Sort of looking forward to Randall's story, but also wishing they'd just move on with the existing plot lines a little more quickly. 

It comforts me to know I'm not alone in thinking the singing was bad. I also think the sing selection was bad, but I can see a teenager without guidance thinking it made her seem mature. Should just be happy she said "ma" instead of "mammy" as written.

Edited November 23, 2017 by red12

[Clanstarling]

5 minutes ago, red12 said:

It treasures me to know I'm not alone in thinking the singing was bad. I also think the sing selection was bad, but I can see a teenager without guidance thinking it made her seem mature. Should just be happy she said "ma" instead of "mammy" as written.

Summertime was one of my husband's signature songs in a former band, so I have very specific requirements. (or, that is, his version is my favorite and I don't respond well to others unless they're amazing) I didn't think she was awful so much as her tempo was off, and there wasn't any emotion in the singing. Which is something her mother could have helped her with, of course.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Clanstarling

[debraran]

1 hour ago, Cardie said:

I thought the exchange of glances between Randall and Kate at the hospital was Randall asking if Kevin would fully recover--and go back to football--and Kate saying, "no."

I think so too. Randall wasn't there and he was like "how bad was it " in a look because he missed the MRI talk Jack had with Kevin. I don't think anything was hidden, Jack was pretty upfront with Kevin, "you'll find your purpose".  They might have been comforting each other, but nothing was really hidden. I still feel Kate was a little jealous of having seen that closeness although Jack and Rebecca never were not demonstrative with their kids and themselves. My Mom was but not my Dad, if I saw that, it would make me stare, but growing up with Jack as my Dad, it would seem normal to show emotion.

[Meatball]

On 11/22/2017 at 2:28 PM, CountryGirl said:

As much as the episode was all things Kate, I felt it shed even more light on Rebecca.

Her lines to a teenage Kate about being a mother (and being a different mother from the one who raised her):

"I always wanted to have a daughter because I wanted to do it a different way. I wanted to be the mom that had her arms wide open just waiting for you to fall in if you needed it… and somehow I don’t know, we just never got there, did we?"

Until they did, when Rebecca flew across the country to be with her grieving daughter.

When Kate opened the door, thinking it was Toby, and found her mother standing there, her arms open wide..my throat and eyes filled.

And her living the concluding words she spoke to a teenage Kate about a mother's love as she stepped forward to hold her daughter:

"It’s my job to stay here with my arms wide open for you to fall into if you need to and even if you don’t need to…because that’s what it means to be a parent."

Rebecca was the very person Kate needed but didn't know she needed until she was there, collapsing in her eyes, and by this point, I am full-on ugly crying and I'm not a crier.

I wish we had gotten a little more insight on why Kate has such issues with her mother (I suspect it's the age-old angst of daughters not measuring up to not only their mother's expectations, but their mothers, themselves), but moments like they just shared tonight, showed they aren't so far apart after all. There was pain and grief but also some healing.

I also kind of loved Toby and I never thought those words would leave my keyboard. 

Thank you so much for quoting these particular lines. They hit me right in my gut and I started crying right then and there! I agree with everything you said.

[Bliss]

I love so many things about this show - how it's a metaphor in so many ways for what we all go through... ranging from the painful emotions of loss and grief to the 'bliss' of love.

It's interesting reading everyone's comments and I thank you for your perspectives.

One thing that I noticed from this particular episode is how it mirrored something I learned last year - what unconditional love really means. (I've always known it from my fur babies... but humans are another story!)

Rebecca touched on it in her conversation with Kate, and I agree. There's a different dynamic being a mom (in contrast to being a daughter - I happen to be both) in that it's the mom's job to love unconditionally... not the daughter's. I discovered this while going through a devastatingly painful issue with my adult daughter... and although I knew it all along, I got an eternal taste of what it means to love my daughter unconditionally - no matter what she says or what she does, I will love her. I'm her safe place to fall, and I'll always be here for her until I transition and get my wings. At least, I'd better get those wings, or I'll be p*ssed.

[Paloma]

5 minutes ago, Bliss said:

Rebecca touched on it in her conversation with Kate, and I agree. There's a different dynamic being a mom (in contrast to being a daughter - I happen to be both) in that it's the mom's job to love unconditionally... not the daughter's. I discovered this while going through a devastatingly painful issue with my adult daughter... and although I knew it all along, I got an eternal taste of what it means to love my daughter unconditionally - no matter what she says or what she does, I will love her. I'm her safe place to fall, and I'll always be here for her until I transition and get my wings. At least, I'd better get those wings, or I'll be p*ssed.

Thanks for making this good point about the different dynamic. During my childhood and adulthood, my mother's love always seemed at best conditional and (eventually) completely withheld and replaced with anger and rejection. I remember my father sometimes saying that I had to go more than halfway because she could or would not. Not surprisingly, since I did not have a good model for unconditional mother love, I often found myself falling into the same pattern of reacting with anger and rejection when my daughter expressed those feelings toward me. The one saving grace for me is that, unlike my mother (who held anger against anyone who hurt her for her entire life), I know this is the wrong way to react and have always made an effort to let her know I am sorry when I do that and that I still love her. But sometimes it takes me a few days or even a couple of weeks to get past the hurt so I can do that.  

So, getting back to the episode and the "open arms" conversation and the actual open arms during Rebecca's visit after the miscarriage, this choked me up and I envied Kate because (1) I didn't get open arms from my mother and (2) I'm afraid that my daughter does not feel that she gets open arms from me, despite my efforts to change the dynamic that I learned.

[Bliss]

5 minutes ago, Paloma said:

Thanks for making this good point about the different dynamic. During my childhood and adulthood, my mother's love always seemed at best conditional and (eventually) completely withheld and replaced with anger and rejection. I remember my father sometimes saying that I had to go more than halfway because she could or would not. Not surprisingly, since I did not have a good model for unconditional mother love, I often found myself falling into the same pattern of reacting with anger and rejection when my daughter expressed those feelings toward me. The one saving grace for me is that, unlike my mother (who held anger against anyone who hurt her for her entire life), I know this is the wrong way to react and have always made an effort to let her know I am sorry when I do that and that I still love her. But sometimes it takes me a few days or even a couple of weeks to get past the hurt so I can do that.  

So, getting back to the episode and the "open arms" conversation and the actual open arms during Rebecca's visit after the miscarriage, this choked me up and I envied Kate because (1) I didn't get open arms from my mother and (2) I'm afraid that my daughter does not feel that she gets open arms from me, despite my efforts to change the dynamic that I learned.

I believe there's a generational gap with many of our parents (especially the ones who went through the Great Depression, or the following years) - their children were to be seen and not heard, etc. A totally different parenting style than my generation (I'm at the tail end of the boomers). As my parents got older, and as I demonstrated to them a different style of parenting - and explained to them the why's - they actually changed their perspectives. It helped that I allowed that to happen and didn't "black box" them... I find great power in being open to possibilities. (e.g., healing can take place after people die, if we choose to do so, and are willing to do the work!) My children are doing an exceptional job of parenting (in my opinion), so the dynamics continue to improve...

It's a tough lesson, but a valuable one, to learn to not take things personally (one of the Mayan's 4 agreements)... and when I remember that, life gets so much easier. Not everything is about "me"! Whodathunkit?! Sometimes, people are just going through whatever they're going through... and their reactions/responses are due to their state of mind or their emotional state.

I applaud you for wanting the change the dynamic with your daughter, Paloma... that takes courage and stamina... and my suggestion is to keep opening your arms, without any expectation. It takes a lot of drips for water to make a hole in a rock... and yet it happens... I wish you the best.

[possibilities]

4 hours ago, doodlebug said:

I’m still sorta wondering why a pessimistic, high risk pregnant woman in her FIRST trimester is ordering something so esoteric as a baby bath thingy at that point.  It’s not something she’s going to need immediately or something they won’t be able to live without.  

I think that was Toby's doing. Kate was angry at him and said it was because she had said she didn't want to get excited, and he insisted on making a big deal and overdoing things, which made it more painful for her when she miscarried.

[Sweet-tea]

Quote

 I thought the episode went along well until Rebecca's Great Onion Incident

I see what the writers were trying to get across with that scene, but I don't think Mandy Moore pulled it off. She seemed forced to me and clearly "acting." Her work in the rest of the show was good though. I think she's better in the softer, nuanced moments than the more dramatic scenes. 

Is teenage Kate supposed to be a good singer? I didn't think her version of Summertime was very good, definitely not worthy of getting into a music program. I wonder what Rebecca really thought about it. I couldn't tell if she was genuinely impressed or just trying to be encouraging to her daughter. 

I don't really relate to Kate or find her that interesting as a character, so I  wasn't as into this episode as last week's. Although I liked Toby in this one, some of the speeches put me off. Whenever I hear one I am reminded of Grey's Anatomy, a show I stopped watching several seasons ago because of the long monologues. Writers, please take it down a few notches. People don't talk like that. 

One nit: why haven't we found out how Jack dies? I thought there was a story saying we would know in the first few episodes.

[Quickbeam]

Not an especially good episode. I did like teen Kate needling her mother about the super close rapport with Randall. Nice continuity throughout the series on that. I love teen Kate a lot more than adult Kate and I think the teen actor nails it.

[kissedbyarose]

Did Kate take any vocal/music lessons or was she just hoping to get into Berklee based on raw talent? That scene just reminded me of what happened when she went to that audition. People put years and years of practice and study into these things! 

I don’t see what drives Kate. Which would be okay if she were this sort of aimless 20 something but she’s 37... which is not to say that there’s an age limit on this but what was she doing before? This is pretty much my long winded rambling way of saying that I agree with everyone that this episode didn’t do much for me because we didn’t learn anything new about Kate. 

[ShadowFacts]

9 hours ago, Sweet-tea said:

I see what the writers were trying to get across with that scene, but I don't think Mandy Moore pulled it off. She seemed forced to me and clearly "acting." Her work in the rest of the show was good though. I think she's better in the softer, nuanced moments than the more dramatic scenes.

I agree.  Although in the scene on Kate's couch when she was telling the onion story, I couldn't help but think these two women are age peers, Rebecca is not just a  youthful-appearing mother, she is Kate's same age.  The make up isn't cutting it. 

[Aloeonatable]

12 hours ago, Sweet-tea said:

One nit: why haven't we found out how Jack dies? I thought there was a story saying we would know in the first few episodes.

I don't recall anyone saying we would find out in the first few episodes, only that we would be given hints. I believe we will find out by the end of this season, maybe the episode that follows the Super Bowl?

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, Aloeonatable said:

I don't recall anyone saying we would find out in the first few episodes, only that we would be given hints. I believe we will find out by the end of this season, maybe the episode that follows the Super Bowl?

I've heard they are planning on doing 3 seasons.  I firmly believe that we will not find out until towards the end, or perhaps the very end of season 3.

[OtterMommy]

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

I've heard they are planning on doing 3 seasons.  I firmly believe that we will not find out until towards the end, or perhaps the very end of season 3.

They've been renewed through season 3, but I've seen interviews with Fogelman where he mentioned things happening in seasons beyond 3.

 

16 hours ago, kissedbyarose said:

Did Kate take any vocal/music lessons or was she just hoping to get into Berklee based on raw talent? That scene just reminded me of what happened when she went to that audition. People put years and years of practice and study into these things! 

I don’t see what drives Kate. Which would be okay if she were this sort of aimless 20 something but she’s 37... which is not to say that there’s an age limit on this but what was she doing before? This is pretty much my long winded rambling way of saying that I agree with everyone that this episode didn’t do much for me because we didn’t learn anything new about Kate. 

Responding in spoilers and speculation

[debraran]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I've heard they are planning on doing 3 seasons.  I firmly believe that we will not find out until towards the end, or perhaps the very end of season 3.

No season 3 to find out!!! lol   They said season 2, I think it will be the end of the season, the funeral and season 3 will be the aftermath. From Fogleman:

“You’ve seen a lot of pieces — this was always the plan for the Big Three,” said Fogelman. “We had talked about the fire and what happened from day 1 of starting. This has always been the plan. You’re seeing a lot of things that are going to reveal themselves over the course of the season… The writers have sat and analyzed every bit of minutiae. A lot of the little things are going to come into play over the course of this season. All the answers about how Jack died, it’s all going to happen this season.”

I'll take him at his word.  : )

Edited November 24, 2017 by debraran

[Paloma]

12 hours ago, kissedbyarose said:

Did Kate take any vocal/music lessons or was she just hoping to get into Berklee based on raw talent? That scene just reminded me of what happened when she went to that audition. People put years and years of practice and study into these things! 

This was so unrealistic, because conservatory schools are supercompetitive and you don't get in without years of training and/or incredible natural talent. Sorry if this comes off as bragging, but to help make the point, when my daughter applied to Juilliard as a dancer there were multiple rounds of auditions (after they already cut hundreds of applicants based on a written application and submitted video). She also needed recommendations from a few dance teachers where she had trained for years. She was accepted for one of only about 20 spots in the freshman class. There were more spots available in the music program, but there were even more applicants for music majors. 

Because my husband and I knew that the likelihood of our daughter being accepted to Juilliard was so small, we insisted that she also apply to 3 or 4 other colleges with good dance programs (still competitive but not as extreme as Juilliard). Even if Rebecca didn't go to a conservatory herself, she should have an idea of how difficult it is to get in Berklee (or she could look it up!), especially with no indication that Kate has taken singing lessons or even done much singing in her room since the elementary school talent show. Where would she even get recommendations from singing teachers/vocal coaches?

It's fine to encourage Kate to pursue her dream, but she should also encourage her to be realistic and have a backup plan. I guess that's what the "make a list" (of schools) comment was about, but it seemed pretty passive. I get that Rebecca didn't want to create even more tension with Kate by pushing her (I still remember the misery of my daughter's college application year, trying to keep from crossing the line from reminding to nagging). But if she takes a passive approach when Kate is at the school application stage, Kate is likely to end up exactly where she seems to have ended up--kind of aimless, apparently not having gone to or finished college, and trying to create a singing career out of small local gigs.  

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Paloma said:

This was so unrealistic, because conservatory schools are supercompetitive and you don't get in without years of training and/or incredible natural talent.

I don't see how it's unrealistic considering the fact that we don't know that she got in.  In fact, she probably doesn't.

[Paloma]

25 minutes ago, Katy M said:

1 hour ago, Paloma said:

This was so unrealistic, because conservatory schools are supercompetitive and you don't get in without years of training and/or incredible natural talent.

I don't see how it's unrealistic considering the fact that we don't know that she got in.  In fact, she probably doesn't.

The part that was unrealistic was not so much Kate wanting to apply but the way Rebecca responded. Of course, maybe we will see more of a conversation about this in a future episode, but since this was the Kate episode I would have liked to see Rebecca encourage Kate about singing while still suggesting that she needs to have more realistic backup options for college. (And of course Jack would need to be involved in this discussion, though he would probably say "go for it" and not worry about how realistic it was.)

I get that Rebecca doesn't want to crush Kate's dreams and that she wants to be her "open arms," but realistic college or post-high school options have to be a topic of conversation between parents and high school kids--even if the kid has a special talent. At a minimum, Rebecca could suggest that Kate take singing lessons (there's been no indication that she ever did), although if she wants to go to a conservatory it's probably too late for lessons to make a difference if she is a senior or even a junior in high school.

[debraran]

10 minutes ago, Paloma said:

The part that was unrealistic was not so much Kate wanting to apply but the way Rebecca responded. Of course, maybe we will see more of a conversation about this in a future episode, but since this was the Kate episode I would have liked to see Rebecca encourage Kate about singing while still suggesting that she needs to have more realistic backup options for college. (And of course Jack would need to be involved in this discussion, though he would probably say "go for it" and not worry about how realistic it was.)

I get that Rebecca doesn't want to crush Kate's dreams and that she wants to be her "open arms," but realistic college or post-high school options have to be a topic of conversation between parents and high school kids--even if the kid has a special talent. At a minimum, Rebecca could suggest that Kate take singing lessons (there's been no indication that she ever did), although if she wants to go to a conservatory it's probably too late for lessons to make a difference if she is a senior or even a junior in high school.

I had to be my kids biggest advocate (guidance was so-so at best) but I wonder where that is in this show? Rebecca admitted that she didn't know very much about college applications but that is part of her job as a parent. You don't just count on guidance counselors or for your kid to magically get in and scholarships. They obviously thought that Kevin was going to get picked up somewhere and Randall was a bright kid, but that means Kate should have been more on the radar. Even without Internet, you should have been writing or visiting before now.

I know parents today who aren't very interested in the process but these two seemed to be very involved in their children. I love this family but so  many gaps in  their lives.

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, Paloma said:

This was so unrealistic, because conservatory schools are supercompetitive and you don't get in without years of training and/or incredible natural talent.

The bolded part is what keeps bothering me the most about Kate's singing storyline. Her voice is nothing special. It's pleasant enough for karaoke or a community/church choir, but it's completely generic.  

If the show wanted viewers to take Kate's singing seriously, they should have hired an actress with a more distinctive voice. This has been done successfully on other shows; Nashville is one that comes to mind.

[CelticBlackCat]

37 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

The bolded part is what keeps bothering me the most about Kate's singing storyline. Her voice is nothing special. It's pleasant enough for karaoke or a community/church choir, but it's completely generic.  

If the show wanted viewers to take Kate's singing seriously, they should have hired an actress with a more distinctive voice. This has been done successfully on other shows; Nashville is one that comes to mind.

There aren't that many 400 pound actresses who happen to be exceptional singers around.  The focus of Kate's character so far has been her weight struggles, and the singing seems like an add on that she kind of was interested in in high school and then renewed her interest after she saw and photo of her mother singing at the age of 36-37.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, debraran said:

I had to be my kids biggest advocate (guidance was so-so at best) but I wonder where that is in this show? Rebecca admitted that she didn't know very much about college applications but that is part of her job as a parent. You don't just count on guidance counselors or for your kid to magically get in and scholarships. They obviously thought that Kevin was going to get picked up somewhere and Randall was a bright kid, but that means Kate should have been more on the radar. Even without Internet, you should have been writing or visiting before now.

I know parents today who aren't very interested in the process but these two seemed to be very involved in their children. I love this family but so  many gaps in  their lives.

I don't know about the 90's, but my when my kids in the 00's were getting ready, there were programs for parents AND students to attend. On the other hand, they made college choice seem so dire that your life was ruined if you picked "the wrong one" - which just stressed my kids out. Fortunately, I had my own experiences to go by to help them out. 

57 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

The bolded part is what keeps bothering me the most about Kate's singing storyline. Her voice is nothing special. It's pleasant enough for karaoke or a community/church choir, but it's completely generic.  

And not even as a soloist.

[debraran]

5 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I don't know about the 90's, but my when my kids in the 00's were getting ready, there were programs for parents AND students to attend. On the other hand, they made college choice seem so dire that your life was ruined if you picked "the wrong one" - which just stressed my kids out. Fortunately, I had my own experiences to go by to help them out. 

And not even as a soloist.

Yes, we did that too for financial aid issues but I did many Internet and forum searches and learned as much as I could mainly for FA purposes. Who offers 100% need, other scholarships.

In the Kate episode, you saw nothing of her at school, did she sing in choir, did she sing in church or take lessons? You don't apply to a great music college on a whim. It doesn't mean you aren't any good, but you have to be prepared.

[Calamity Jane]

On 11/22/2017 at 9:27 AM, Conotocarious said:

I didn’t see Six Feet Under but that sounds so much more on point. And yes the whole point of the D&C is to get every bit to prevent infection! I mean they still could have sent her home but there’s no way she’d be going to sing. She’d have a script for pain meds and instructions to take it easy. For me and my sister it was like  labor cramps. 

I didn’t even here about what the doctor said about her passing most of it in the shower. Whaaaat? That’s not at all realistic. With no spotting or anything ahead of time to tip her off that something was wrong? No way.

if I were a writer I would have done it like this: Kate goes to the bathroom to pee, screams for Toby that she sees blood, they head to ER, they confirm via ultrasound that the baby is no longer alive (this could have been a very realistic and wrenching scene), then she has a D&C. 

I don’t even know why I’m harping in this.  Instead of being affected by anything I was too busy going “nope, that’s not right”.

I am sorry for your loss as well. :(

The way miscarriage is portrayed on TV is about as realistic as how giving birth is shown.   Anything you know a lot about is likely to seem wrong when TV tries it.  It used to bug me no end, but I've lived to realize that's how TV is.

[Calamity Jane]

2 hours ago, debraran said:

I had to be my kids biggest advocate (guidance was so-so at best) but I wonder where that is in this show? Rebecca admitted that she didn't know very much about college applications but that is part of her job as a parent. You don't just count on guidance counselors or for your kid to magically get in and scholarships. They obviously thought that Kevin was going to get picked up somewhere and Randall was a bright kid, but that means Kate should have been more on the radar. Even without Internet, you should have been writing or visiting before now.

I know parents today who aren't very interested in the process but these two seemed to be very involved in their children. I love this family but so  many gaps in  their lives.

I taught a class (AVID) in middle school for kids who had drive and ability, but whose families did not have the background or know-how to guide them towards college acceptance.  A lot of people find themselves really bewildered and overwhelmed when it's something outside their experience. We had a fair number of minority students, but at least half were Anglos whose parents had big dreams for them but weren't sure how best to help their children.  I think this part is quite realistic, honestly, especially for twenty years ago.  

[saber5055]

All this episode did for me was make me hate Kate even more. She was a petulant, snotty kid and she's even moreso as an adult. She is hateful in every way. Only the last scene when she FINALLY let her mom hug her and she hugged her back did she become a (somewhat) likable human. And Toby threatening the delivery guy? That guy needed to step back away from Toby and call 911 STAT before Toby beat the sh*t out of him like he said he was going to, and have the cops arrest his *ss. Then Toby going through the warehouse? Yeah, right, like they would let him do that. If you are so freaking worried about the package, sit on your porch and wait for it. Then return it, put it in the attic or sell it on Craigslist. But if I had my way, Toby would be sitting in a jail cell after going all Hulk Smash on a delivery guy. And the onion thing? So what the recipe called for yellow. Buy some white or red or sweet onions. Or tell the lady you'll pay her twice what the onions cost. I would have run out of the store with my (MY) onions if I were that other shopper. Plus Rebecca could have freaking ASKED the grocer if there were more onions in back. Basically, I hated everyone in this episode until Toby gave his "it also affects me" speech and Kate actually hugged her mother after treating her like cr*p her entire child and adult life. Five minutes of redemption after 55 minutes of everyone being horrible.

[Clanstarling]

1 minute ago, saber5055 said:

All this episode did for me was make me hate Kate even more. She was a petulant, snotty kid and she's even moreso as an adult. She is hateful in every way. Only the last scene when she FINALLY let her mom hug her and she hugged her back did she become a (somewhat) likable human. And Toby threatening the delivery guy? That guy needed to step back away from Toby and call 911 STAT before Toby beat the sh*t out of him like he said he was going to, and have the cops arrest his *ss. Then Toby going through the warehouse? Yeah, right, like they would let him do that. If you are so freaking worried about the package, sit on your porch and wait for it. Then return it, put it in the attic or sell it on Craigslist. But if I had my way, Toby would be sitting in a jail cell after going all Hulk Smash on a delivery guy. And the onion thing? So what the recipe called for yellow. Buy some white or red or sweet onions. Or tell the lady you'll pay her twice what the onions cost. I would have run out of the store with my (MY) onions if I were that other shopper. Plus Rebecca could have freaking ASKED the grocer if there were more onions in back. Basically, I hated everyone in this episode until Toby gave his "it also affects me" speech and Kate actually hugged her mother after treating her like cr*p her entire child and adult life. Five minutes of redemption after 55 minutes of everyone being horrible.

One of the things that cracked me up in that scene is that the actress who took the onions was clutching the bag to her chest at one point. She was NOT going to give them away.

[OtterMommy]

3 hours ago, CelticBlackCat said:

There aren't that many 400 pound actresses who happen to be exceptional singers around.  The focus of Kate's character so far has been her weight struggles, and the singing seems like an add on that she kind of was interested in in high school and then renewed her interest after she saw and photo of her mother singing at the age of 36-37.

There is a reason for that.  Her bodyweight affects how she can fill and support her lungs, so it would be very hard, if not impossible, for someone that size to be able to have the support needed to sing at a professional level.

As an aside....there is that old saying about how it ain't over until the fat lady sings...the irony of that is that the "fat ladies" usually aren't that fat.  It's sort of a cliche to think that opera divas are large women--they can be all sizes and, frequently, those who look larger are not as large as one might think.  Through years of training, they've built up the muscles in their torsos, which make them look barrel-chested.  But really, an accomplished singer even close the size of Kate would be hard to find.

[wonderwoman]

On November 22, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Jodithgrace said:

don't ever cry during this show, being a cold-hearted person, but I did well up a bit when Rebecca arrived. That was very well done. 

I have been know to shed a tear or two, and did when Rebecca arrived. I also found the scenes beteen Rebecca and teenaged Kate revealing.  But, with the exception of Randall and William's road trip to Memphis, these single-focus episodes leave me cold. I much prefer seeing all of the characters interact, which is why having Randall on the East Coast with Kevin and Kate in LA disrupts the flow and makes the show feel disjointed. 

≈

Edited November 25, 2017 by wonderwoman

[CelticBlackCat]

Teen Kate's rendition of "Summertime" for her Berklee application wasn't the greatest either, however, she applied to a music school at the age of what, 16-17, so how great is she already supposed to be?  Isn't she supposed to be showing that she has an interest and potential?  I don't want to fault teen Kate for not being Adele.

[ShadowFacts]

8 hours ago, CelticBlackCat said:

Teen Kate's rendition of "Summertime" for her Berklee application wasn't the greatest either, however, she applied to a music school at the age of what, 16-17, so how great is she already supposed to be?  Isn't she supposed to be showing that she has an interest and potential?  I don't want to fault teen Kate for not being Adele.

There were kids in my high school and my own kids' schools who performed in musicals and concerts who had very good, polished voices that were improving all the time via their music teachers' coaching and lots of practice and performing.  Those are the kind of students who apply to college music programs, and a kid like Kate who apparently doesn't do any of that wouldn't have much chance competing against them.   There is raw natural talent, and there is hard work, and I don't personally think Kate is strong in talent and she has been keeping her interest secret from her mother, so I doubt much work has gone into the equation.

[debraran]

6 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

There were kids in my high school and my own kids' schools who performed in musicals and concerts who had very good, polished voices that were improving all the time via their music teachers' coaching and lots of practice and performing.  Those are the kind of students who apply to college music programs, and a kid like Kate who apparently doesn't do any of that wouldn't have much chance competing against them.   There is raw natural talent, and there is hard work, and I don't personally think Kate is strong in talent and she has been keeping her interest secret from her mother, so I doubt much work has gone into the equation.

And in 20 years, that hasn't changed. There isn't any growth with some characters. Kate did the same immature thing with her audition, except she blamed it on her weight (and got a great correction that was done with tact and honesty) She hasn't learned much and if Rebecca told her she was too rough then, she would say she wasn't supportive or a cheerleader.

[Clanstarling]

13 hours ago, CelticBlackCat said:

Teen Kate's rendition of "Summertime" for her Berklee application wasn't the greatest either, however, she applied to a music school at the age of what, 16-17, so how great is she already supposed to be?  Isn't she supposed to be showing that she has an interest and potential?  I don't want to fault teen Kate for not being Adele.

Berklee is, to my understanding, as well known as Julliard. They take the creme de la creme, and there are plenty of accomplished kids for them to sort, and reject, at that age. It doesn't seem, from what we've seen, that Kate has actually done anything to pursue singing, so she'd be an instant reject.

[BetyBee]

Why doesn't the show just dub in a fabulous singer for both teen and adult Kate?  

[CelticBlackCat]

Since I'm not on the admissions team at Berklee, I wouldn't know who they accept or not.  I forgot that those types of schools are ruthless and very hard to get in unless you already have the talent and perfection to shine when you graduate.  I looked at their website and admissions is only at 26% acceptance rate!  Easier to get in than Julliard's 7.2% though.  ;)

[doodlebug]

16 minutes ago, BetyBee said:

Why doesn't the show just dub in a fabulous singer for both teen and adult Kate?  

For the same reason they want to pretend that it is logical for a teen who hasn’t had any vocal training or experience to expect to have a realistic chance to attend one of the top music schools in the country? And to expect to be awarded a substantial scholarship to cover it, to boot?  Seemingly, they’re relying on Kevin’s athletics and Randall’s academics to help pay the way, so surely Kate wants a scholarship, too..  In real life, a kid like Kate would’ve spent years in choir and in school musicals and gotten a ton of vocal coaching. A school like Berklee is going to require a live audition at least for a scholaship if not admission, but Kate hasn’t performed for an audience in years, if ever.  How could she possibly feel she can compete?

I have a musician friend who got a Masters at Berklee. At the time he applied, in addition to a musical performance degree from a state school known for having a good program; he’d also been playing regularly almost every weekend since age 14, playing with all sorts of groups.  He had thousands and thousands of hours performing.  He graduated with honors but still couldn’t make a living performing, BTW.

I do not understand how TPTB expect is to believe that Kate, with no music education or background and a very mediocre voice at best, is going to be accepted at a top school. Of course, adult Kate, still with no experience or training and still having no special vocal talent, thinks she can make a career of singing, maybe we’re supposed to think she’s delusional. 

I don’t even see any joy or excitement in performing from Kate.  They keep telling us she loves it and is sure this is her passion, but I haven’t seen it myself. 

[love2lovebadtv]

On 11/23/2017 at 6:10 PM, possibilities said:

I think that was Toby's doing. Kate was angry at him and said it was because she had said she didn't want to get excited, and he insisted on making a big deal and overdoing things, which made it more painful for her when she miscarried.

I thought by getting excited toby meant to speak positively and share with people  - not to buy a baby bath. I sometimes watch while doing laundry and what not, so it's possible that I missed something. 

[possibilities]

It's weird that they've given the singing story to Kate. It makes her seem spoiled, sullen, delusional, and unsympathetic. I liked it better when she was a competent organizer and event planner, and was not just moping all the time.

[Clanstarling]

19 minutes ago, possibilities said:

It's weird that they've given the singing story to Kate. It makes her seem spoiled, sullen, delusional, and unsympathetic. I liked it better when she was a competent organizer and event planner, and was not just moping all the time.

I agree. Though I totally understand that sometimes just because you're good at something, doesn't mean you actually enjoy doing it, or are fulfilled by it. That's my career in a nutshell. 

[Cardie]

5 hours ago, possibilities said:

I liked it better when she was a competent organizer and event planner, and was not just moping all the time.

Those creative Hollywood types can't imagine doing something dull like being a crackerjack organizer and planner when you could be chasing after a showbiz career you're not talented enough to succeed in. After all, talentless Kevin made it big. I'd like to see Kate realize the singing is just a hobby and perhaps get into the production side of the entertainment industry. I suspect that Metz fancies herself a good singer and the show indulges her.

[love2lovebadtv]

9 hours ago, BetyBee said:

Why doesn't the show just dub in a fabulous singer for both teen and adult Kate?  

I handwave lots of things on this show; it's fiction - not a documentary or even a reality show.

So I don't care if Beth's childbirth experience is similar to my own. I don't mind Kevin talking about the Challenger tragedy occurring when he was in second grade when I know that it happened when I was in second grade and I'm older than the big 3. It's still in the same time frame and only a few years off. I get Rebecca & Jack taking the kids trick-or-treating as Sonny & Cher because that scenario and those costumes worked for them - not for every family at that time, but for them. Plus, my exposure to Sonny & Cher came primarily from people dressed up like them on TV or as Halloween costumes, so I'll buy it. Prior to Randall's adoption storyline this season, I even handwaved Randall's first-season adoption story, which seemed less formal than when I adopted my Cabbage Patch Kid (of course, this season we're seeing a lot more on the process of adopting Randall). 

But I cannot get past the fact that Kate is just not a singer.  Yes, she can sing. But it makes no sense to me that she would consider applying to a prestigious college for music and her mother didn't even know she sang anymore. I get that she didn't open up to her mother, but then that would also mean that she had no voice lessons, didn't participate in a singing group, wasn't singing around the house much, etc. I don't buy it. And I don't buy her waking up at 37 and deciding to become a singer and having people pay her to do so.  I really want them to give her something else to do (YouTube, voice lessons, etc.) besides all of a sudden having gigs.

[NeverLate]

On 23/11/2017 at 4:10 PM, possibilities said:

I think that was Toby's doing. Kate was angry at him and said it was because she had said she didn't want to get excited, and he insisted on making a big deal and overdoing things, which made it more painful for her when she miscarried.

Meh, she got just as excited, so she purchased a bath. I started knitting baby clothes, that didn't pan out either.

[himela]

On 24/11/2017 at 5:01 AM, Sweet-tea said:

 

I don't really relate to Kate or find her that interesting as a character

This show is about real people rather than fake interesting people. The purpose is not to relate or be entertained but to make you think and feel for them even though you may have nothing in common with them. It's a people show.

[love2lovebadtv]

46 minutes ago, himela said:

This show is about real people rather than fake interesting people. The purpose is not to relate or be entertained but to make you think and feel for them even though you may have nothing in common with them. It's a people show.

Nice way to put it. We do tend  to compare our own lives to this show when discussing it here. 

1 hour ago, NeverLate said:

Meh, she got just as excited, so she purchased a bath. I started knitting baby clothes, that didn't pan out either.

Yes, I agree. Her excitement is different from Toby's and she tried to fight it. But she got excited anyway. She's human. 

[himela]

On 25/11/2017 at 3:07 AM, saber5055 said:

All this episode did for me was make me hate Kate even more. She was a petulant, snotty kid and she's even moreso as an adult. She is hateful in every way. Only the last scene when she FINALLY let her mom hug her and she hugged her back did she become a (somewhat) likable human. And Toby threatening the delivery guy? That guy needed to step back away from Toby and call 911 STAT before Toby beat the sh*t out of him like he said he was going to, and have the cops arrest his *ss. Then Toby going through the warehouse? Yeah, right, like they would let him do that. If you are so freaking worried about the package, sit on your porch and wait for it. Then return it, put it in the attic or sell it on Craigslist. But if I had my way, Toby would be sitting in a jail cell after going all Hulk Smash on a delivery guy. And the onion thing? So what the recipe called for yellow. Buy some white or red or sweet onions. Or tell the lady you'll pay her twice what the onions cost. I would have run out of the store with my (MY) onions if I were that other shopper. Plus Rebecca could have freaking ASKED the grocer if there were more onions in back. Basically, I hated everyone in this episode until Toby gave his "it also affects me" speech and Kate actually hugged her mother after treating her like cr*p her entire child and adult life. Five minutes of redemption after 55 minutes of everyone being horrible.

I think you are being really strict. Being horrible is being human and it has a meaning. Everything a person does or thinks has a meaning and this is what this show is about; it's not about presenting people we will love rather than people who have humanly attributes and flaws and make mistakes. You trying to create your own way of how things should have happened in my opinion ruins all the meaning of this show.

[yorklee2]

On 11/21/2017 at 10:42 PM, Katy M said:

I don't think it matters whether she saw.  If Rebecca had hold of the onions, it wouldn't take her any longer to retain hold of them to get back to the babies.  If not, it really wouldn't take more than a second longer to grab them, then go back.  She left them on the shelf and therefore they weren't hers.  The question is why was there exactly one bag of onions there?  I've literally never seen that with pretty much anything, unless it's something that they're discontinuing. There's either at least a few of something, or none.  Was there some kind of crazy run on onions that day that the store was just not expecting? Were there no more in the back?  

My thought during that scene was why can't she or the other lady just buy individual onions? I mean it's not like it takes a whole bag to make one dish. I know that whole scenario was to show Rebecca's level of grief but I immediately thought of what I would do if that were to happen to me. If someone went off on me like that. I would be, "here you can have it I'll just grab me a couple over here. No problem. Are you OK, lady??" 

[debraran]

16 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

I thought by getting excited toby meant to speak positively and share with people  - not to buy a baby bath. I sometimes watch while doing laundry and what not, so it's possible that I missed something. 

The bath was an odd thing, I think that's more "maybe I'll get it as a gift" item, most new moms want to buy clothes or knit something as she did and not run out and by toys or baths, etc  I wasn't high risk with my singleton but didn't buy much until I was second trimester. I had one outfit I kept in a drawer that I just loved but that was it.  They tend to go over the top on this show though and I didn't think the bath was such a big deal, the intercepting it, was.