S16.E13: Finale, Part 1

[SnarkyTart]

7 hours ago, pinguina said:

I'm sorry I really don't get the praise for Brandon's looks.  They are practically the same as what he has done all season, with a small change here and there.  And of course - MORE CROP TOPS!  His clothes don't really flatter and just seem comfortable (despite the hooks, ties, tassels, loops, ribbons).  And what the heck was up with Lisiris (?) outfit?  It did not do her any favors.

To say the least.  He made the fabulous, shapely, curvy Liris look like a short, squat, shapeless, overweight and bald old lady in weird pajamas.  That's a special kind of talent.

[Lamb18]

I'm watching the episode now and have some comments to make before I read everyone else's.

Kentaro's dead cat story. Ha ha ha!!! He beat @Cooksdelight to it! I feel bad about the cat, poor thing.

It's interesting seeing people's collections after seeing the Fashion Week pictures.  Bradon's looks like washed-out hospital gowns to me. The kind you change into when you're going in for a mammogram. I do like Margarita's prints. I like her a bit more this episode than in past ones. From what I've seen so far I kind of like hers the best. (They've just returned to New York in the episode.)

Margarita's bomber jacket reminds me of a Picasso painting. Her collection's kind of cool. But I like vibrant colors. I like Kenya's, but her collection is kind of dull. There's one outfit on the mannequin that reminds me of a page boy outfit. I think the transparent wrap actually makes the black dress look more matronly. Ayana is how I feel every day at work (this is while Tim is looking at the collections). I really like her collection seeing it close up. Not my favorite colors but I like what she's done. It makes me thing of 18th-century France with all that silver and gold, the menswear from that time.

So far, after Tim's completed his visit, is that Brandon's and Kenya's are my least favorite. Brandon: pajamas and hospital gowns. Kentaro's collection reminds me of Japanese prints. I know that's not his inspiration but that's what it reminds me of. It seems weird that Lyris is decided which look Brandon should use. I doubt that the models tell Zak Posen which outfits they should wear. I think Ayana was smart to switch out the outfits. If the outfit looks good on the model it will make a better impression (I think). We'll see how it works out.

Ha! Ayana has a Dixie cup - the same type Barack Obama drank out of!!

I don't like what Kenya's black dress does to that model's breasts. They're sort of pressed down. The look Lyris is wearing is kind of weird. The more I see of Ayana's the more I like it. I don't know if any of you have read Georgette Heyer novels, but I think of These Old Shades and that style of clothing.

Brandon - Lyris's outfit: pajama chaps. Margarita - back to the 70s!!! Bell bottoms! The good old days! Kenya's is nice, but just not very interesting. Kylie looks like a man!! But I do think Kentaro's styling is cool. The peach gown is beautiful! So Kentaro has a different story on the runway. Music when he talks to Tim and a Japanese lake when on the runway. Is the model in the white dress wearing black socks or is that just shadows??

I'm so glad Ayana is going to Fashion Week!! I hope she wins!

[Lamb18]

22 hours ago, weightyghost said:

Also, I swore Kentaro said dead COW and cat makes more sense because I was like... how did he come across a dead cow.

Especially when he said he buried it!

[TwirlyGirly]

10 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Doesn't picking up and burying a dead cat guarantee a trip to the rabies ward for 14 injections in the stomach?

As someone mentioned upthread, you can't get rabies just by touching a dead animal. The animal would have had to have been infected, and saliva, blood, or brain tissue from the animal would have to enter your bloodstream:

"Rabies can’t go through unbroken skin. People can get rabies only via a bite from a rabid animal or possibly through scratches, abrasions, open wounds, or mucous membranes in contact with saliva or brain tissue from a rabid animal. " (http://www.humanesociety.org/animals/resources/facts/rabies.html )

Also, the stomach injections as a treatment for rabies haven't been given since the 1980's:

"...[The rabies vaccine has not been given in the stomach since the 1980s. For adults, it should only be given in the deltoid muscle of the upper arm (administration to the gluteal area is NOT recommended, as studies have shown this can result in a less effective immune response). For children, the anterolateral aspect of the thigh is also an acceptable site (depending on the child's age and body mass). Rabies immunoglobulin is recommended to be given at the site of the bite, if possible." (http://www.ndhealth.gov/disease/rabies/qanda.htm )

 

14 hours ago, mwell345 said:

<snip>

To the point where I actually had to double check to make sure Kentaro said DEAD cat. 

Kentaro said he was inspired by the sounds he heard after he buried the cat. So, are we really sure it was dead when he buried it?

[Lamb18]

21 hours ago, Ketzel said:

I thought Ayana's outfits looked inspired by the costumes for Hamilton.

I saw it too, not necessarily Hamilton (which I haven't seen), but 18th century upper class/aristocracy.

19 hours ago, GaT said:

Didn't people used to feed Tim when he came visiting? I wonder why nobody did this time?

Kenya's family did.

[meep.meep]

3 hours ago, ichbin said:

Didn't Ayana say that she planned on showing some of the models in hajibs for her FW collection  before Zac made that comment?

Hijab !!!

who wins in the contest between "my collection was inspired by a tacky couch" and "my collection was inspired by a dead cat". .??

[Lamb18]

12 hours ago, AZChristian said:

Kentaro's home visit was definitely unique.  As he was playing the piano (were those intentional accidentals, or was he hitting the wrong keys?), all I could think of was, "If this music is for his portion of the runway show, those models are going to be walking really slow."  Sounded like a funeral march.

It sounded intentionally dissonant to me. I was waiting for the fast part that would accompany the models walking down the runway. Guess not!

[Nmissi]

I continue to be perplexed by the Brandon love. He's adorable, but his clothes look like he dresses his models in old bedsheets. At least he's branched out to the faded fifties florida  flamingo motel bedsheets now.  Kentaro is the "fashion" designer of the show- in the vein of Betsey Johnson and Vivienne Westwood- his stuff is usually"out there," but interesting. I don't get how the judges fawn over Brandon and yet don't appreciate Kentaro.

Margarita designs for 1970s Mattel. It's all uniformly awful. Ayana bores me to tears. And while I understand why they sent her home? Kenya is the only one who sent anything up there that I would actually wear. I'd rock the heck out of that black dress (with a better bra and better styling) and the cover up fabric was gorgeous- but it should've been a wrap, or scarf, maybe shrugged over the shoulders- not a whole sleeved garment. Kenya won't lack for offers- she makes pretty, feminine, traditional clothing that appeals to a wide variety of figures- I expect she'll have more success out of this venture than whomever (cough, Brandon, cough) wins this season. 

[pivot]

Are the judges high? Brandon's clothes are hideous. HIDEOUS. 

Margarita's clothes were my favorite by far probably because I hate that drab pink/flesh color that everyone else was using way too much of. 

[AntAnn]

2 minutes ago, Nmissi said:

I'd rock the heck out of that black dress (with a better bra and better styling) and the cover up fabric was gorgeous- but it should've been a wrap, or scarf, maybe shrugged over the shoulders- not a whole sleeved garment.

Exactly! The cover up fabric was lovely, even tying a few knots in the hem would have made it more interesting. Many possibilities there and a shame she didn’t think of that. Maybe too stressed out at this point.

[amazingracefan]

4 hours ago, ichbin said:

The families of contestants living in the US usually seem to know who Tim is, his status on PR, and reason for his visit.  During Kentaro's conversation with his family one of them referred to Princess Diana as the English woman who died (or something along that line).  I doubt they would be aware of Tim and his role and function on PR and would probably just be puzzled about why they were talking to him, even with interpreters.

If they knew he was on it then they probably read up on it to an extent, they could have easily been briefed beforehand on some things, plus there's always editing. 

I still think it was more a language thing, some people are just uncomfortable with English and Japan can be an example of that.  I'm sure most of the conversation with Kentaro was in Japanese, they couldn't really express themselves much in English and the producers probably didn't want to have to use subtitles or an interpreter as they thought the audience wouldn't like it.  Kentaro himself can actually be quite stilted in English as we saw when he was asked whether he was ready for the final, he was clearly struggling there.  And I expect the judges looked at it like that, though they have also clearly ranked him during the season as a final contender despite his struggles towards the end.

[jcbrown]

9 hours ago, millennium said:

Rabies is passed on by blood and saliva.   If the dead cat bit you, you might have a problem.

More than one problem, I would say.

I would actually wear those pants Margarita made. I am not built anywhere like her model so I would look very different in them but the magpie I evidently was in a former life really liked them. That said, I thought the entirety of her collection, at least on the hanger, looked like a clown car exploded.

Please pull it together, Kentaro!

[AntAnn]

4 minutes ago, amazingracefan said:

I'm sure most of the conversation with Kentaro was in Japanese, they couldn't really express themselves much in English and the producers probably didn't want to have to use subtitles or an interpreter as they thought the audience wouldn't like it. 

Personally, I would have loved it if they had been able to converse in Japanese with subtitles. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by AntAnn
Clarify

[Rancide]

I love Brandon, and I adore almost everything he has done this season.  I HATE those flamingos and everything they touch.  Dear God.

[Brookside]

9 hours ago, heckkitty said:

What kind of hellish full navy diaper nonsense did Margarita put on Jasmine? She should have joined Kenya in awf lqnd for that abomination alone. 

The same kind of hellish nonsense Brandon dressed his model in.  I'm all for using different sized models, but every model should be dressed "thoughtfully".  Both Margarita and Brandon made ugly, oversized pieces that no plus sized (ie average American) woman would ever wear because she would know how unflattering to her body they were.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Brookside

[Brookside]

7 hours ago, amazingracefan said:

 

I still think it was more a language thing, some people are just uncomfortable with English and Japan can be an example of that. 

I'm speechless.  (This is my best effort at  non-snark.)

Edited November 11, 2017 by Brookside

[LennieBriscoe]

First of all, there is no such thing outside of some entity's attempt at "making it happen" as "modest fashion." It's called "clothing," and some of it actually includes sleeves (I wear 3/4 length myself); tops that aren't cropped or "athleisurewear" bralettes); skirts that are without thigh-high slits; you catch my drift. If one is referring to a cultural tradition, then one, especially the designer, ought to just say so. 

Secondly, Heidi's opinion is worthless to me. She has execrable taste, IMO. 

Third, the outfits. Pale, drab, blah. Except for Margarita, ay, caramba, muchacha! But send me that jacket, okay? Muchas gracias! (BTW, the above-depicted Barbie was dressed a la Lilly Pulitzer, not Rita Moreno.) Kentaro, your collection might be Dead Cat Walking. And really, Brandon, WTH wears a garment gathered at top or bottom like a miser's coin purse? 

Fourth, nobody here is designing even for "Iron Pyrite Girls," let alone "Golden Girls"! Maybe "Leaden Girls".

Lastly, I'd like to have the change from their $50,000. TIA!

[Sprockets]

On 11/9/2017 at 10:33 PM, SuprSuprElevated said:

There is no damn reason this episode couldn't be 90 minutes.

It can be even shorter if you make the FF button your friend.  My show was 40 minutes, if that.  

[AZChristian]

We had only watched part of the episode when it aired, and took the time last night to watch the rest.

Brandon's was the most boring thing I've ever seen.  Cohesion is one thing.  Getting such a great deal on fabric at Walmart that you buy every scrap they have in every store within 20 miles is something entirely different.  There was no "luxe" (quoting Nina) to the fabric.  It absolutely looked like the home decor Brandon said that it was.  No darts, no fitting required.  Just flat pieces of fabric, loops, and straps hanging everywhere.

Kenya - mother of the bride runway at a bridal show

Ayala - great job of stepping outside her comfort zone, while staying true to her aesthetic

Kentaro - closest to "fashion" rather than ready-to-wear; some hits, some misses.  I didn't "get" the peach gown in the mini-collection, although the judges all loved it.

Margarita - haven't been a fan of her personality during the season, but LOVED her bright collection.  This was a Spring collection; it was colorful and fun - like Spring should be.  

[Oholibamah]

On 2017-11-10 at 7:53 AM, pasdetrois said:

 

I can't get behind Ayana's modesty fashion because I don't like the political and religious message behind it. Too many men down through the years telling women to cover their bodies.

 

 

22 hours ago, Jextella said:

 

Heidi's virtual moment was upsetting to me.  I thought it was completely disrespectful to all involved that she wasn't there in person.  I thought it made a joke of the show - including the judges and contestants.

I'm down for diversity - and in fact I tutor for ESL and have many Muslims in my class who wear hijabs, but I can't get behind any custom (religious or otherwise) that puts constraints on anyone else - and in this case, women*. I posted above I think Ayana will take the win, but now that I think about it, maybe not.  It's a sensitive issue and one that might not bode well in ultra-liberal fashion world.  You never, know though.  Women have to continue the fight, IMO.  We are still second-class in the minds of most.

I also think the phrase "modest market" isn't fully accurate to what what Ayana is putting out there.   Her intent is partially in that direction but not fully.  It starts with the hijab and the cultural and religious underpinnings of the belief that women should hide their bodies- even the non-sexual parts, e.g. the head!

* One of the reasons I like tutoring is that many students are women and I like empowering them.  

I get that women dressing modestly has a patriarchal history, but we also shouldn't deny women of today's capacity for free choice. Every Muslim woman I have met has made a personal choice to wear or not wear a hijab, and this choice is respected by their families. There are different ways of wearing it (i.e. with/without an underscarf) and some women will wear it one day and not the next. Women wear a hijab for many different reasons: one friend said it helps her feel closer to God, and for another it shows pride in her culture.  

There are certainly women who are forced to wear it, either directly or through social pressure. But we also can't discount the strength and feminism of those who choose to wear a hijab, and not putting constraints on others includes how they embody feminism.

To me this is Ayana's message: Not one of religion and custom, but of  personal choice through clothes that are modern, strong and fashionable. She stated earlier in the season that it is difficult to find fully covered pieces that are still fashion-forward, and that is what she brings to fashion. 

 

21 hours ago, Nidratime said:

The problem I have with the generic modest label being used for Ayana's designs is that there are plenty of modest people who do not cover their heads or most every other part of their body. Modesty is not necessarily about not showing skin. It's about being unassuming, moderate, and unpretentious. I do realize that the alternative meaning is to be demure and proper in dress, but what is considered modest is very culture bound. A woman who wears a skirt that comes below her knee, even though she's not wearing an hijab or does not have the rest of her legs or her arms covered could be considered modest. Every time I hear that term in relation to Ayana's designs, it makes me think we are judging other women who aren't covered from head to toe as being somehow loose. I know that's not what is meant, but it does make me grit my teeth.

I understand this reaction, but the terms don't have to be a zero sum game. Clothes that aren't modest aren't immediately immodest, and I certainly don't think Ayana would judge or say showing knees/elbows is immodest. In fact, many of her pieces are strategically layered to allow varying lengths depending on one's definition of modesty (i.e. a knee-length skirt over pants).

I work in an office with a collar/tie dress code, so I wear collared dresses with pants, necklaces instead of ties, and floral or beaded blazers. To me, this is formal and conservative because I'm wearing dress clothes and following rules. There are certainly people who think I look "strange" or unprofessional, just as there are some who WOULD say that knees and elbows are immodest. But most understand that I have a personal approach to what I wear.

I am fortunate that I fit into large women's sizes. If I didn't, I would be thrilled to see a designer making awesome clothes that fit my style, and that's why what Ayana does is important: yes, to some people they're "just clothes", but to others who can't walk into a store and automatically find things they love, they're more than that. It shows somebody is listening to your needs, whether that be plus-sized, gender-neutral or modest. I know labels bother people because they think it needlessly separates people, but for others it's a way to express common identity. Without a name for it, somebody looking for what Ayana does may have a harder time finding it. To them the label isn't needless.

tl;dr: Terms will always be relative to somebody's personal experiences, but that doesn't mean they invalidate somebody else's. 

 

Also, this episode was may have been unscheduled: having a FW preview doesn't happen every season, so Heidi likely had another commitment. Flying between LA and NY would be exhausting, so I don't blame her. 

 

I've resigned myself to a Brandon win, but it'll be extra salt in the wound for him to beat a Japanese designer while blatantly ripping on Japanese street-style. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Oholibamah

[retired watcher]

On 11/9/2017 at 11:16 PM, SuprSuprElevated said:

I guess I just don't know what the "modesty" market is, outside of the Muslim community.  

There is a huge modesty market. Google modest bathing suits and you will be surprised. Muslims, Orthodox Jews, some Evangelical Christian groups. 

On 11/10/2017 at 2:18 AM, GaT said:

Didn't people used to feed Tim when he came visiting? I wonder why nobody did this time?

I liked Ayana's, didn't like Brandon or Kentaro, & was so so on Margarita (I’m not into huge, bold prints, but the pants are growing on me.) & Kenya (I didn’t like the black dress, but I liked the other outfit, The judges told her the exact opposite of Tim, there’s no consistency on this show.) 

Does anybody else have a feeling that Kentaro is going to drop out & Kenya will be in? I have no knowledge of this, it's just a gut feeling.

Kenya's family make a feast for him.

[retired watcher]

On 11/10/2017 at 4:00 AM, film noire said:

Yes -- it's heartbreaking Kenya did so badly, when this is her best chance at reaching the eyes necessary to her success.  Her work on the show would be a better calling card. 

And where was her "punch up" colour - was it the black? (If so, why not try something unexpected and daring? There's no better time for it.)

She should have used that beautiful blue dress she made as her inspiration. 

[Wings]

23 hours ago, Nidratime said:

The problem I have with the generic modest label being used for Ayana's designs is that there are plenty of modest people who do not cover their heads or most every other part of their body. Modesty is not necessarily about not showing skin. It's about being unassuming, moderate, and unpretentious. I do realize that the alternative meaning is to be demure and proper in dress, but what is considered modest is very culture bound. A woman who wears a skirt that comes below her knee, even though she's not wearing an hijab or does not have the rest of her legs or her arms covered could be considered modest. Every time I hear that term in relation to Ayana's designs, it makes me think we are judging other women who aren't covered from head to toe as being somehow loose. I know that's not what is meant, but it does make me grit my teeth.

Good post, I agree.  'Modesty clothing' appears to be the code for Muslim dress.  I doubt there is a market for what she designs outside of the Muslim community. 

Chilling difference in male vs female Muslim dress codes! 

Quote

For women: In general, standards of modesty call for a woman to cover her body, particularly her chest. The Quran calls for women to "draw their head-coverings over their chests" (24:30-31), and the Prophet Muhammad instructed that women should cover their bodies except for their face and hands.

Most Muslims interpret this to require head coverings for women, although some Muslim women, especially those of more conservative branches of Islam,  cover the entire body, including the face and/or hands, with a full body chador.

For men: The minimum amount to be covered is the body between the navel and the knee. It should be noted, though, that a bare chest would be frowned upon in situations where it draws attention. 

2https://www.thoughtco.com/islamic-clothing-requirements-2004252

Edited November 11, 2017 by wings707

[Wings]

Brandon is so polarizing!  Love and hate exist with little or no middle ground!  I like his stuff.  I cannot muster the emotion to hate anyone's collection but most of them are not very good!  

[TwirlyGirly]

23 minutes ago, wings707 said:

Good post, I agree.  'Modesty clothing' appears to be the code for Muslim dress.  I doubt there is a market for what she designs outside of the Muslim community. 

Chilling difference in male vs female Muslim dress codes! 

2https://www.thoughtco.com/islamic-clothing-requirements-2004252

http://www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/misinterpreted_verses/khomoorehenna_(P1226).html

[Oholibamah]

31 minutes ago, wings707 said:

Good post, I agree.  'Modesty clothing' appears to be the code for Muslim dress.  I doubt there is a market for what she designs outside of the Muslim community. 

Chilling difference in male vs female Muslim dress codes! 

2https://www.thoughtco.com/islamic-clothing-requirements-2004252

The broad market for modest clothing has been referenced upthread. 

Muslim women, like every other human being, have a variety of personalities, opinions, styles, beliefs, and interpretations of Islam. There are certainly women who are oppressed within Islamic societies. But many others do not find their choice of dress "chilling".  Because for many, it is in fact a choice. It can be difficult sometimes to navigate feminism and cultural sensitivity, but the best approach is to ask those who are involved how they feel, or look to somebody like Ayana.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Oholibamah

[Wings]

14 minutes ago, Oholibamah said:

The broad market for modest clothing has been referenced upthread. 

Muslim women, like every other human being, have a variety of personalities, opinions, styles, beliefs, and interpretations of Islam. There are certainly women who are oppressed within Islamic societies. But many others do not find their choice of dress "chilling".  Because for many, it is in fact a choice. It can be difficult sometimes to navigate feminism and cultural sensitivity, but the best approach is to ask those who are involved how they feel, or look to somebody like Ayana.

My post must have come across differently than I intended.  I sense an edge here.  :>)   I find it chilling, not Muslim women.  My opinion, that is all.  I am well aware of the broad scope in this and all religions when it comes to adherence.  I just don't see women outside of the Muslim faith buying her clothes.   That was my point and yes, I have read this thread and responded to the modest clothing some choose that is readily available.  

[Oholibamah]

14 minutes ago, wings707 said:

My post must have come across differently than I intended.  I sense an edge here.  :>)   I find it chilling, not Muslim women.  My opinion, that is all.  I am well aware of the broad scope in this and all religions when it comes to adherence.  I just don't see women outside of the Muslim faith buying her clothes.   That was my point and yes, I have read this thread and responded to the modest clothing some choose that is readily available.  

No edge intended - I don't think you find THEM chilling, but the clothing they wear. The feedback a lot of Muslim women share is that they don't want to be pitied for (or have people be disturbed by) clothing that they actively choose to wear. It may be an opinion, but in some ways it's an opinion about another person's relationship to God, which isn't as simple as hating peplems. 

I was referring to posts listing various types of women who are in the market for modest clothing. Apologies, I worded that poorly! Ayana's primary clientele will likely be mostly Muslim women, but her fashion lends itself to a lot of women who prefer more coverage. Faith may have been Ayana's starting point and her reason for her POV, but I don't think "modest" is code for Muslim fashion. It's a niche market but isn't specific to one faith. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Oholibamah

[Guest]

What's with Brandon and Margarita both doing those 'giant gathered paper bag' waists?  Ugh, so ugly.  The judges are usually all about garments being slimming.   Who wants all that bunched up, excess fabric just sticking out there at the waist?  You may as well put an inner tube around them.  That might be more flattering.  And Brandon's also had the bunched up top 3" above the bunched up shorts.  At least Margarita's body suit was form fitting.

I have no problem with the term 'modesty'.  It's a word that has more than one meaning, and some people do dress more skin-covering than others, people of all religions and ethnicities.  I'm happy to see more clothing real people can wear on this show.   

Anya's win springs to mind.  No one not shaped like a model would find those flowy, formless, revealing gowns flattering and accessible.  I loved them and don't begrudge her win but I'm happy to see the show evolve. 

Kentaro's pink thing is another few 'real' woman could wear.  Even his twiggy model showed a ton of side boob. 

I'm all for showing boobs and bellies and legs and backs and all else but it's a way to bring drama and sexiness to an outfit.  If you can't go there, you have to use more design skill to bring the same level of visual oomph, I think.   

[latetotheparty]

2 hours ago, Oholibamah said:

I've resigned myself to a Brandon win, but it'll be extra salt in the wound for him to beat a Japanese designer while blatantly ripping on Japanese street-style. 

This is what pissed me off do badly when Nina accused Kentaro of copying Brandon. Maybe you would do better to talk to Brandon about cultural appropriation, Nina. She is dead to me now. 

[theatremouse]

On 11/10/2017 at 4:43 AM, Snappy said:

I found it ironic that the suggestion Tim made to Kenya about using the duster over the black coast was one of the things Zac criticized, although whether covered or not, that dress was a disaster. I wish Tim would just let them show what they want and get assessed for themselves, not his version of them.

I don't blame Tim for that at all though. Kenya had it paired with a different over-thing earlier. I get Zac said the black dress was better by itself without the over-thing Tim suggested instead, but I do suspect TIm was also right that if Kenya had sent the black dress alone, Zac (and the others) probably would've said, this black dress is fine but what's it got to do with the other look? So, in the context of this judging, where they clearly didn't like either of her looks, the point about removing the cover was that this look was better without it, not that her overall juding would've been higher if she left that off. The two looks paired together didn't seem to be coming from the same collection, and the over-thing was just a vague attempt to get them to seem remotely connected.

[BlackberryJam]

I just can’t get behind this idea that there is no market for Ayana’s clothes. There is a limited market for hijabs but every woman I know has at least ten long sleeve shirts/tunics/sweaters that have a high crew neck. All of the women I know have a variety of pants which reach to the tops of their shoes.

That’s what Ayana put out with those two looks. Long sleeves, high necks and full length pants. There’s a market for that. The market for sternum baring dresses is limited. The market for sheer skirts is limited. JC Penney, and that’s the retailer up for grabs here, will always have a market for Ayana’s clothes.

As I sit here, there is a dog food commercial on with a woman wearing a tunic of the exact shape of Ayana’s second look. She’s white and blonde and not wearing a head covering so I am making a snap judgment that she is not Muslim. Turning on something where I would not expect to see Muslim women, NASCAR America is showing a woman wearing a long sleeve, crew neck blouse. Very similar to what Ayana put out. 

How is there not a market for Ayana’s clothes? They certainly aren’t going to be marketed as “Clothes to cover inappropriate female skin.” They are going to be a rack of long-sleeved tops, like every other rack of tops at JCP.

Maybe I’m caring too much about this, but other than the hijabs, Ayana’s clothes say nothing about religion or beliefs. Her first outfit, the grey layered with the jacket, could be worn by dozens of different stars and modified for ready to wear at JCP and would sell easily.

Those two dresses she was going to show have a limited market not because they are modest, but because they are ugly. However, Little House on the Prairie dresses are all over the red carpets. (And I hate them.)

Edited November 11, 2017 by BlackberryJam

[ava111]

On 11/10/2017 at 9:01 AM, Bebecat said:

I know the timing does not work but it sure seems like Margarita was saved only for the sake of Puerto Rico as I cannot see any other reason.

I think Margarita  was saved only because it was the last time Tim could use his save. Whoever would be eliminated would be saved just by default. 

[gingerormaryann]

Reading through the posts of this season, this has been the most provocative, divisive and interesting season in years.

Ratings wise, Part 1 of the Finale had a .4, which broke the .5 PR achieved for the three prior weeks.  Looking at the demos, PR also skews older as it has a larger than average number of viewers who are 50 or older.

[amazingracefan]

10 hours ago, Brookside said:

I'm speechless.  (This is my best effort at  non-snark.)

And that was your best effort at an edit I guess.

Whether you like it or not English isn't spoken as fluently everywhere and in many places while people can speak some English they can be uncomfortable having to communicate with a native speaker of English, worrying that they could end up saying something stupid or messing up.  This is magnified even more when you are about to be shown on US TV.  There's lots of information on the internet you could have used.  Just a couple from an immediate search...

https://japantoday.com/category/features/lifestyle/pronunciation-anxiety-many-japanese-people-dont-want-to-speak-english-unless-its-perfect

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTopic-g298184-i861-k5506448-Do_the_majority_of_Japanese_speak_some_basic_English-Tokyo_Tokyo_Prefecture_Kanto.html

 

So your 'non-snarky' remark as you later edited is actually way off.

Edited November 11, 2017 by amazingracefan

[ratgirlagogo]

4 hours ago, wings707 said:

'Modesty clothing' appears to be the code for Muslim dress.  I doubt there is a market for what she designs outside of the Muslim community. 

Aside from what has been said about the variety of religious groups that have some idea of modest dress, designing for Muslims specifically is not necessarily such a bad business plan.  Keep in mind that some of the richest people on planet Earth are observant Muslims in the Middle East.   Anyone who developed a reputation for designing not just modest clothing, but modest High Fashion is looking at a potential gold mine.  The same way so many celebrity chefs (Gordon Ramsay, Wolfgang Puck, Jamie Oliver, Nobu Matsuhisa, etc. ) have restaurants in Dubai.

To put it another way, back in season 3 when the contestants went to Paris and had a challenge of a completely hand-constructed couture dress, with Catherine Malandrino as the guest judge - it was pointed out that there are no more than maybe 200 actual customers in the whole world for couture fashion because it is so ruinously expensive.   But if you CAN attract such customers, boy do you have a business.   You develop a reputation as a high status brand and your cheaper off the rack line becomes more desirable.

Edited November 11, 2017 by ratgirlagogo

[Wings]

22 hours ago, ratgirlagogo said:

To put it another way, back in season 3 when the contestants went to Paris and had a challenge of a completely hand-constructed couture dress, with Catherine Malandrino as the guest judge -

I loved this episode.   Jeffery was the one who created the yellow plaid gown.  It was fabulous and won I think.  I did a quick search for it and gave up.  I know it is on the internet somewhere!  

ETA  I found it!  

Edited November 12, 2017 by wings707

[ratgirlagogo]

2 minutes ago, wings707 said:

think Jeffry was the one who created the yellow plaid gown.  It was fabulous and won I think. 

Yes, you're right - it WAS fabulous and he DID win the challenge.  That dress was the one thing he ever made that I liked.

[carrps]

2 minutes ago, wings707 said:

I loved this episode.  I think Jeffry was the one who created the yellow plaid gown.  It was fabulous and won I think.  I did a quick search for it and gave up.  I know it is on the internet somewhere!  

Yes. He did.

[Wings]

1 minute ago, carrps said:

Yes. He did.

I found it, scroll up!  Loved it. 

[Cyranetta]

I don't fall into the category of any religious organization requiring modest dress, but I would wear a lot of Ayana's designs in a heartbeat, because I find the general lines and fabric treatments lovely and flattering, as well a a refreshing change from some of the recent styles I find repellent (like granny panties under a lace skirt, e.g.). Also, for me, they hit a sweet spot between high-fashion and humanly wearable.

I would not actively look for a "modest" collection, but the application of the word would not put me off from something I otherwise find quite appealing.

[Sprockets]

3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

How is there not a market for Ayana’s clothes?

There is a ginormous market, worldwide.  I watched a documentary that referred to wealthy Muslim women being willing to travel around the world to find appropriate clothing, and also willing to pretty much pay anything for it.  

[Guest]

I wouldn't even mind if Ayana could get hijabs popular in the mainstream.  Her's are so cute on her and look really practical. I get tired of hair styling, and hats and head scarves aren't too in.  At least not for my demographic.  

[Sprockets]

6 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

 

I wouldn't even mind if Ayana could get hijabs popular in the mainstream

 

I totally agree.  They look very comfortable.  However, in my part of the country,  the issue for me would be whether I wanted the dirty looks and nasty comments.  

Edited November 11, 2017 by Sprockets
addition

[carrps]

2 hours ago, wings707 said:

I found it, scroll up!  Loved it. 

Yep. You people are too fast!

3 minutes ago, Sprockets said:

I totally agree.  They look very comfortable.  However, in my part of the country,  the issue for me would be whether I wanted the dirty looks and nasty comments.  

That's depressing.

[Blndee6]

2 hours ago, wings707 said:

I loved this episode.   Jeffry was the one who created the yellow plaid gown.  It was fabulous and won I think.  I did a quick search for it and gave up.  I know it is on the internet somewhere!  

ETA  I found it!  

Wow! I was going to respond to an earlier post about that season and comment that the only thing I remembered Jeffrey making was this horrid yellow plaid dress. I thought this was one of the ugliest gowns I’d seen on PR in a while. Different strokes..!

[Sprockets]

52 minutes ago, carrps said:

That's depressing.

What is?  

[carrps]

1 hour ago, Sprockets said:

What is?  

That you'd get nasty comments and looks  for wearing Ayana's clothes. Unless I misunderstood your comment???

[Sprockets]

3 minutes ago, carrps said:

That you'd get nasty comments and looks  for wearing Ayana's clothes. Unless I misunderstood your comment???

Oh, I get it.  You understood.  I live in a part of the country that can be very backward.  (Central Ohio.) I have seen Muslim women, identified by their clothing, being treated quote badly.  When I see it, I step in.  It really is terrible, and insidious.  Not on my watch.  

[carrps]

1 minute ago, Sprockets said:

Oh, I get it.  You understood.  I live in a part of the country that can be very backward.  (Central Ohio.) I have seen Muslim women, identified by their clothing, being treated quote badly.  When I see it, I step in.  It really is terrible, and insidious.  Not on my watch.  

That's where my mom's from (Columbus, but born in Murray City). I thank my lucky stars all the time that her life's ambition was to get out of Ohio.