S04.E05: Girls Night Out

[Trini]

Quote

Having received an ominous threat from her old boss, Amunet (guest star Katee Sackhoff), Caitlin fears that her past time as Killer Frost may be back to haunt her. Felicity (guest star Emily Bett Rickards) comes to Central City to help the girls celebrate Iris's bachelorette party, while Cisco, Joe and the guys take Barry out for a night on the town.

Laura Belsey directed the episode written by Lauren Certo & Kristen Kim

[Trini]

We'll see how female-focused this episode ends up being, but it's written and directed by women, with a female villain. I wish Linda and Cynthia were here too, but I'm looking forward to Iris getting to hang out and talk with other women.

[BkWurm1]

Probably the most I can remember looking forward to a purely Flash episode.  Love the premise, love the promo's, love Katee Sackhoff.  Can't wait!!!!!

[Trini]

Producer preview:

[SevenStars]

I hated, hated the writing for Iris so much in this episode I couldn't enjoy it.

Honestly, the only thing I like/loved about the episode was Joe/Barry's jail conversation and Amnulet lady. 

I just can't with this writing. 

[mtlchick]

Drunk Barry is the best Barry.  "Why didn't Rose make room for Jack on the door" had me DYING.  

Edited November 8, 2017 by mtlchick

[bettername2come]

Four women talking on The Flash? Shocking! I liked it, I liked the writing for Caitlin, although I agree that Iris seemed off. I could've done without them just saying "feminism" repeatedly. They need to write the Iris and Caitlin relationship better/at all.

My first thought when Snake Eye showed his, well, snake eye, was "He's got a demogorgan in his eye!" I've watched way too much Stranger Things.

[WindofChange]

So... Caitlin is Iris' Maid of Honor even though in the same episode they talked about how they aren't close or friends at all? This really doesn't compute. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by WindofChange

[Jediknight]

They let the villain go, and let the malnourished meta that is part of Thinker's plan go?  Come on, that wasn't a win for Team Flash.

I swear, Dibny is played by a Jim Carrey clone.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Jediknight

[Lord Kira]

Well this episode was mostly trash. Perhaps the worst episode of the series. 

- Almost everyone was out of character. Team Flash giving up their phones? Stupid. Iris and Felicity pulling up in a Star Labs van? Stupid. Letting the villain go? STUPID!

- Felicity was annoying. I stopped watching Arrow in season 3, but I don't remember being annoyed by her. Last I saw her was in last years crossover where I liked her.

- Dinby was annoying. Why are they trying to make him a thing? He served his purpose last week, he wasn't needed here.

- What really brought it down was the terrible writing/dialogue. Beating the audience over the head with the girl power and #feminism crap. No one talks like that. Who wrote this garbage? Here is a little known secret: Female characters being badass are a lot more accepted by audiences when the characters are not constantly talking about how female and badass they are. This felt like A Very Special Episode, a trend which I thought died off in the 90's.

- I'm probably in the minority on this site, but I"ve never been a big fan of Iris. I'm not liking her increased prominence this season. Doesn't she have a job? Why is she always at Star Labs?

- They let the villain go!? Who wrote this trash? People have been put in the pipe-line for less!

 

Now for the things I liked:

- Felicity dissing Star Labs security

- the Joe/Barry scene in the jail

- Caitlyn/Killer Frost. Its a shame she was shackled into the the terrible #feminism plot.

- "Aww, it's only Caitlyn."

Edited November 8, 2017 by Lord Kira

[Writing Wrongs]

I love Katee Sackhoff's character. She had me laughing. "What part of this outfit makes you think I want to be called 'ma'am'?"

[tennisgurl]

I cant decide which moment was more relatable. Drunk Barry crying about Titanic, or Cisco seeing Killer Frost and being like "Nope, too tired. Dealing with this in the morning". 

Is drunk Barry screaming "I`M THE FLASH!!!!" in the middle of a crowded room really much different than sober Barry? I also love how Iris is such a boss, that she can even get Killer Frost to back off from killing people! I didn't find Iris particularly off, she seemed quite Iris to me. I especially love that she and Barry share a love for giving "your secretly not such a bad person I can totally tell" speeches that have a surprisingly high success rate. 

Ralph is still pretty skeezy, but the actor is likable enough to make it work. I am looking forward to him possibly meeting Sue (his long time wife from the comics) and reforming more, as long as we keep Identity Crisis far away from this franchise. *takes broom* shoo Identity Crisis! Shoo shoo! 

The Joe/Barry scene in the jail was excellent. Also the video of Iris and Barry was super cheesy, but so adorable. 

[catrice2]

25 minutes ago, WindofChange said:

So... Caitlin is Iris' Maid of Honor even though in the same episode they talked about how they aren't close or friends at all? This really doesn't compute. 

Well, who else would it be?  In my memory Iris has never spoken about any girlfriends or was it shown that she had any. I only remember her co worker who Barry dated and I think they shipped her off to another earth or town or something.  I can't even remember her name, but she either had powers or someone thought she did or something.

[Primal Slayer]

I liked this episode for the most part but my biggest complaint about this episode is that they decided to have the episode center around the girls which is great! But they had to make sure that you knew this was a girls episode instead of treating them like yet another episode. It had to be all "girl power! #feminism!"

At the beginning of the season when AK said that we'd be happy with KF/CS...I thought these two would just merge and become a happy medium. Not just the same old "dual personality" they've been doing since last season. I found it weird how Frost just let Amnuette just beat her in battle the first time when she totally could've taken her on. 

I was SOOOOOOOOOOOO glad that they called out Caitlin/Iris not being friends since they never give them anything to do with one another outside of Flash work. Hopefully from here on out they get better quality scenes together.

Who is this other breacher? I need to know.

[WindofChange]

Just now, catrice2 said:

Well, who else would it be?  In my memory Iris has never spoken about any girlfriends or was it shown that she had any. I only remember her co worker who Barry dated and I think they shipped her off to another earth or town or something.  I can't even remember her name, but she either had powers or someone thought she did or something.

I'd much rather it have been someone whom Iris just didn't have a conversation with about not being friends with... Literally could've been anyone else. Bring back Linda, make it Cecile, or Felicity, or Gypsy. Literally anyone lol

[Primal Slayer]

I hope they tried to get Linda back for this episode because she should've been around. But so should've Wally.

[catrice2]

I have been through a lot with some people too, but  I would not want them to be my maid of honor. Seriously they could have just had someone show up that Iris said was her best friend from college who had been living in another country.....

 

Not sure about the episode. There were parts I liked. I just feel like the actress is trying too hard when she is Killer Frost, Felicity was my favorite until they made her a love interest, and Iris, Iris just seems to be missing a spark this season. 

Frisco sorry, Cisco and Harry always annoy be, but I love anything with Joe.  I called the step daughter having a "secret" as soon as she said she had other plans.  Drunk Barry was as boring to me as sober Barry. 

[tennisgurl]

So, what exactly is the plan of Mr. Big Brain? He creates a bus full of meta humans as part of his evil plan, who would presumably be his minions, but...that doesn't seem to be happening. He seems to have picked these specific people and given them powers for a specific reason, but so far, we have only seen one thats actually a super villain type. Of the four we have met, we had Kilgore, who was obviously working for him and evil, Becky, who doesn't seem to know whats going on at all and, while not a good guy, doesn't seem to be truly evil, Ralph, who`s sleazy but trying to be a better guy now, and now this Weeper guy, who just seems broken and twitchy. In fact, there are probably a lower percentage so far of evil meta humans than there were in the particle accelerator!

Maybe he thought that the people he picked could be turned bad for various reasons (that actually lines up pretty well), but it hasnt worked out so well. It would be interesting if this turned into a sort of "the bad guy thinks people are so awful that can be easily corrupted and it turns out he isnt so right" kind of story. Kind of like *spoilers just to be safe* 

Spoiler

The ending of the Dark Knight with the Joker and the two ferries. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by tennisgurl

[GHScorpiosRule]

58 minutes ago, mtlchick said:

Drunk Barry is the best Barry.  "Why didn't Rose make room for Jack on the door" had me DYING.  

Same here!????

And his “I’m the FLASH!!!”

”I love chicken wings SOOOO much!”

??????????????

[Lantern7]

I had fun. It was a bit thick on "#Feminism," and Caitlin needs to reconcile that she has powers, and she doesn't have to be Killer Frost. "Frost" works as an effective metahuman name, right?

Spoiler

Also, the Killer Frost in the comics is trying to reform in Justice League of America

, so "our" Caitlin doesn't have to deal with a split personality. It's a big cliche.

Ralph sucks, but we needed the typical "Bachelor Party Gone Awry" plot. It distracts from the vultures slowly surrounding Joe. Really hoping he doesn't become the latest father figure of Barry to die. He's got approximately 3.2 children; 4.2 if you throw in the stripdaughter. Um, stepdaughter. Shit, what is her name?

I'm okay with us not getting Original Recipe Thinker, but you can hear people yelling "METRON!!!" at the screen. Thinker is so brilliant, he built his own Moebius Chair.

Shit, what did Cisco give Barry? I'm guessing he moved past the mythical 200-plus proof alcohol. Hey, what if Barry drinks "Weeper's" tears? Could he get a buzz from that?

I like the lady villain. Kinda reminds me of Missy. Funny how she got thwarted not by Frost or Iris & Felicity, but by Cecile activating a giant magnet.

[opus]

Seemed like an easy villain to beat. Just take away her bucket?

[johntfs]

19 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

we had Kilgore, who was obviously working for him

Actually, I don't think he was/is.  Kilg%ore was targeting the three people who screwed him out of being a billionaire.  With his powers he might know that someone is watching him but I doubt he knows who.  I think it's a lot more likely that instead of recruiting villains, the Chairman (until I get an official naming, that's what I'm calling him) is assembling components and powers.  There's a guy who can control electronic/computerized technology, a girl who shifts probability, a dude who can stretch a lot and absorb kinetic damage (punches and bullets don't hurt Ralph) and whatever the dude tonight can do.  I think the Chairman plans to combine these abilities with perhaps Barry's abilities to do... something.  I just don't know what.

[Lady Calypso]

It was fun in places, for sure. I agree that the writing was a bit weak in places, and I really wanted it to be great, because it was a female-centric episode, with women fighting crime, written and directed by women. And yeah, there were some really terrific moments that worked on both sides. However, something was definitely off, and I think it was the blatant "This is the girls episode!" vibe it was giving. And what's worse is that this probably won't happen again, since it felt like it was treated like a special episode. Next thing we know, Caitlin and Iris will go back to barely glancing at each other during scenes. 

I did like how Caitlin pointed out that they were barely work friends. I mean, it's true. They barely interact in a group setting, let alone just one on one. But then it was kind of ruined by Iris asking Caitlin to be her maid of honor, for a "fresh start" or whatever. I think it would have been ok if Iris asked her in the next episode, but it felt thrown in because...you know, females! And because these two will not have another conversation for about two seasons. 

Caitlin/Killer Frost was handled surprisingly well. Once I got past the shoddy excuse for Caitlin to turn onto KF because of a split personality thing, which was HARD, I found her rather enjoyable. They're trying to add layers to both sides of the character, with KF being afraid to turn into Caitlin, but it's still kind of annoying that she's the only meta to turn into somebody else. They really need to work on a solution, and fast, because it's been two seasons of this now.

Felicity is adorable, but the writing for her here was so, so bad. It was like she was the comic relief but that's all she was. She had no personality that we've seen not just on her show, but in her crossover episodes either. Guess what? She's not JUST the funny character. 

The villain of the week was fun, if you don't analyze her character too much. She was basically stopped with magnets...which is fine and all, but they basically gave the girls an easy villain to stop. It didn't help that the villain got distracted very easily. Also, the fact that Caitlin and Iris let her go instead of trapping her in the pipeline. That's just shitty writing right then and there. Like....even Barry has the common sense to put his villains away. 

I liked the boys side of it just for drunk Barry. I'm glad Grant gets to be funnier this season instead of a mopey dickhead. However, still don't care about Joe and Cecile's pregnancy. Hartley Sawyer is doing fine as Ralph, but the character's getting on my nerves. 

Overall, I really wanted to love it, and some moments were strong, but the episode itself was pretty weak.

[johntfs]

10 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

So The Incredible Hulk is part of this universe?

As a comics/movie/TV character, perhaps.  As a real being in this universe?  I doubt it since this is a WB/DC property and the Incredible Hulk is with Disney/Marvel.

[Writing Wrongs]

yeah, I just remembered that was Marvel.

[tennisgurl]

44 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Actually, I don't think he was/is.  Kilg%ore was targeting the three people who screwed him out of being a billionaire.  With his powers he might know that someone is watching him but I doubt he knows who.  I think it's a lot more likely that instead of recruiting villains, the Chairman (until I get an official naming, that's what I'm calling him) is assembling components and powers. 

I thought he said something about working for the Chairman (nice name Cisco!) or at least knowing about him, even if the people he was going after at the time were people he had a vendetta against. But maybe not, its been a few weeks! Thats actually not a bad idea at all. I assumed he created the meta humans to be his evil minions, but maybe that isn't it, its more about using them as a power source? As you noted, many of them have some kind of connection to energy, maybe he wants to create a huge burst of energy? For...something. 

[ruby24]

Here's the problem with Caitlin/KF centric episodes- DP is a terrible actress and she just. can't. carry a storyline.

I'm sorry, but she can't. Iris and Felicity seemed like they liked each other more. I see that this was an attempt to shoehorn Caitlin in as Iris's maid of honor, but the two of them have ZERO actor chemistry. There's just nothing there, I almost felt like Iris was reluctant to even ask her to do that. The fact that they acknowledged that the two of them are only work friends was honest, but to go from that to her immediate maid of honor just didn't feel right.

[immortalfrieza]

On 11/7/2017 at 9:24 PM, opus said:

Seemed like an easy villain to beat. Just take away her bucket?

On 11/7/2017 at 9:32 PM, Lady Calypso said:

IAlso, the fact that Caitlin and Iris let her go instead of trapping her in the pipeline. That's just shitty writing right then and there. Like....even Barry has the common sense to put his villains away. 

Yeah, the idiot plotting was HORRIBLE in this episode, and all of it was just to have a stupid "Girl Power" episode, which has never actually resulted in good fiction in the history of ever. They have a girl with Ice superpowers, who somehow apparently chooses to jump to murder immediately, but doesn't consider the simple option of incapacitating her opponent, and who was more than capable of taking out the villainess of the episode effortlessly but doesn't because... reasons. Probably the worst part was the fact that the villain had to apparently carry around a bucket to use her metal arm gun trick, but nobody thought to take it away from her or even just take her out while she was SLOOOOWLY reaching over to the bucket and SLOOOOWLY drawing in a bunch of metal after the third time she did it. What's worse is the writers could have solved the issue by simply having the woman's powers be to spontaneously form metal out of her arm in a split second and then do whatever with it.

At least the guy's side of the thing wasn't full of idiocy, at least not the kind of idiocy that would have screwed up the plot if they didn't have it, just typical Bachelor Party idiocy. Ralph was a total sleaze but it works for his character and he seems generally a good natured kind of sleazy. It's seems much more like they couldn't actually use

Spoiler

Plastic Man for whatever reason so they just gave his personality to Elongated Man and went with that. That's fine though, I love Plastic Man.

[HunterHunted]

On 11/7/2017 at 10:32 PM, immortalfrieza said:

Probably the worst part was the fact that the villain had to apparently carry around a bucket to use her metal arm gun trick, but nobody thought to take it away from her or even just take her out while she was SLOOOOWLY reaching over to the bucket and SLOOOOWLY drawing in a bunch of metal after the third time she did it. What's worse is the writers could have solved the issue by simply having the woman's powers be to spontaneously form metal out of her arm in a split second and then do whatever with it.

If they are going to try to make Amunet seem scary they should have taken a page from Avatar: Legend of Korra and incorporated the metal into her costume. But a bucket? Not threatening in the least.

Quote

At least the guy's side of the thing wasn't full of idiocy, at least not the kind of idiocy that would have screwed up the plot if they didn't have it, just typical Bachelor Party idiocy. Ralph was a total sleaze but it works for his character and he seems generally a good natured kind of sleazy. It's seems much more like they couldn't actually use

Spoiler

Plastic Man for whatever reason so they just gave his personality to Elongated Man and went with that. That's fine though, I love Plastic Man.

 

Spoiler

I didn't think this was what Elongated Man was supposed to be like. Plastic Man is the criminal turned good guy?

On 11/7/2017 at 8:04 PM, mtlchick said:

Drunk Barry is the best Barry.  "Why didn't Rose make room for Jack on the door" had me DYING.  

I died too.

[Trini]

I was really looking forward to this, but the episode was all over the place.

They should have advertised this as a Caitlin-centric episode. More on that mess later.

So Dibny was only in this so that the guys couldn't be contacted. Otherwise, he was just annoying (but that's his character I guess...).

I liked seeing Felicity, I just wished she'd had more one-on-one scenes with Iris. And that she had more to do; she was mostly quippy.

It was nice to remind us that Cecile has a daughter, but I'm not sure the side-plot with Joanie added anything. But I guess it padded out the bachelor party B-plot.

Amunet worked for me as villain, but I'm not sure if she's 'big bad' material. Maybe she joins forces with DeVoe later.

The special effects were good, but I feel like that was the only good part of the fights.

Ha! Barry and Iris got married as kids -- that gave me a laugh because I'd seen someone write that exact story elsewhere on the internet.

Did like the scene with Joe and Barry in the jail cell, and I'm glad we got to hear how he feels about the new baby... finally after 2 episodes.

Missed Wally. He should been with the rest of the guys, and he should have been called by Iris.

There's another breacher out there?? Are they going to revisit that? Because breachers are too powerful to just be running around as an unknown quantity.

Uh-uh. Don't, don't do it No. No! Nooooooooooooooooo....!! <-- Me at Iris asking Caitlin to be maid of honor. So many things wrong there.

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

The villain of the week was fun, if you don't analyze her character too much. She was basically stopped with magnets...which is fine and all, but they basically gave the girls an easy villain to stop. It didn't help that the villain got distracted very easily. Also, the fact that Caitlin and Iris let her go instead of trapping her in the pipeline. That's just shitty writing right then and there. Like....even Barry has the common sense to put his villains away. 

She was paused with magnets.  They were in a former steel plant.  Amunet could easily have gotten to more metal.  She carries the bucket around because most places that have the metal she manipulates also have it in a fairly non-portable form (part or pipes, engine blocks, etc.).  She was in a place where that wasn't the case.  The girls' didn't let Amunet go so much as both sides decided it was too risky to push the issue right there.  Killer Frost was there with three unarmed women.  Amunet's thugs were stunned but recovering.  Amunet had been disarmed by the magnet but was in an area should could easily rearm if she got the chance.  Could Killer Frost have taken down Amunet and her thugs without Iris, Cecile, Felicity, or the chained-up meta they were trying to rescue getting killed by Amunet or her thugs' bullets?  Maybe.  Could Amunet and her thugs have killed the four women without Killer Frost killing some or all of them?  Maybe.  But Iris was smart enough to know that it was too damned risky to push things and once she'd talked Killer Frost down from just flat-out murdering Amunet, the best move was to let Amunet and her people go and take the win of rescuing the Weeper guy.  That way everybody gets to live to fight again another day, which means next time Iris will be more prepared to deal with Amunet in a more conclusive way (ie catching her and sticking her in the Pipeline on the way to the meta wing of Iron Heights).

[Trini]

8 minutes ago, johntfs said:

She was paused with magnets.  They were in a former steel plant.  Amunet could easily have gotten to more metal.  She carries the bucket around because most places that have the metal she manipulates also have it in a fairly non-portable form (part or pipes, engine blocks, etc.).  She was in a place where that wasn't the case. 

They said that it was a particular metal alloy that she manipulates, but otherwise I agree with everything else.

[Trini]

Also: That was the second time they referred back to "This house is bitchin'", so looks like that (and what ever else Barry wrote) will be important at some point this season.

Until they explain HOW DeVoe/Thinker could make those new metahumans, I'm still not buying it. And what use could he have for a guy whose tears make people high?

[johntfs]

10 minutes ago, Trini said:

Until they explain HOW DeVoe/Thinker could make those new metahumans, I'm still not buying it. And what use could he have for a guy whose tears make people high?

Maybe the Chairman thinks on a level that mimics precognition.  As for the tears, well, you have tears that make people high and a guy who can stretch/shift himself in a way that can likely get through, around and within almost any physical obstacle and a woman who leaves adverse probability effects (aka shit goes wrong) in her wake and a guy who can control computers and any technology that's computer-based.  I'm coming up with a fuckload of possible damage inflicted from a combination of just those four abilities.  And there's at least eight more people out there (possibly nine if the bus driver's death was faked with a very realistic lookalike/clone corpse.

[thuganomics85]

Katee Sackhoff was having a ball as Amunet.  Certainly hope she comes back and I have to think she will, after her final threat to Caitlin/Killer Frost.

Mixed emotions here.  I laughed quite a bit in this episode and it was nice seeing the team of Iris, Caitlin, Felicity, and Cecile be front and center, while the guys were off being drunken fools.  But it definitely slipped into "tell, not show" territory at times, with the references to girl power and feminism, making it really come off self-congratulatory and all "Aren't we awesome?!" about it.  You don't have to spell out what we are already seeing, show.  Already having to deal with this over on Supergirl this season.

But the biggest offense to me was letting Amunet go.  Why?  Why in the hell did they do that?  It totally made sense to have Iris talk Killer Frost down from killing her, but they really couldn't find some way to incapacitate her before the cops arrive?  Really?!  Now, I'm going to be in the mindset where if/when Amunet does return and cause hell, I'm going to be partially blaming them for not finishing the job.  Just lazy writing.

Barry's Bachelor Party pretty much went through all of the tropes, but I still found amusement between Cisco's reactions, Harry being the smart one, Ralph being a dick but an amusing one (the actor really is making this work for me), and, of course, Drunk Barry!  We need to see Drunk Barry again!

So, in the span of one night, Iris and Caitlin go from acknowledging that they are work friends at best, to Iris asking Caitlin to be her maid of honor.  Iris really doesn't have any friends outside of S.T.A.R. Labs, huh?  To be fair, no one does.  I'm sure Cisco will end up being Barry's best man (only because Oliver keeps ignoring Barry's texts about it.) 

It is credit to Jesse L. Martin's awesomeness that I've actually become invested in Joe's fears over being a father again.

Sorry, but I was cracking up over The Thinker hovering in his chair in the final scene.  Just looked goofy for some reason.

[ruby24]

So Wells can just walk around in public again?

[johntfs]

13 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

But the biggest offense to me was letting Amunet go.  Why?  Why in the hell did they do that?  It totally made sense to have Iris talk Killer Frost down from killing her, but they really couldn't find some way to incapacitate her before the cops arrive?  Really?!  Now, I'm going to be in the mindset where if/when Amunet does return and cause hell, I'm going to be partially blaming them for not finishing the job.  Just lazy writing.

I thought it was pretty good writing.  I like the idea of Iris as a team leader who knows when to hold 'em, fold 'em, walk away and run.  Could they have incapacitated Amunet (and her heavily armed recovering thugs)?  As I said before, maybe.  Could they guarantee that Cecile, Felicity, Iris, Killer Frost and/or Weeper guy (who was apparently an innocent dude kidnapped for his powers) would not be maimed or killed while trying to accomplish that?  No, they couldn't.  It wasn't worth it to either Iris or Amunet to push the confrontation at that point.  Sometimes it's best to settle for a partial victory (or in Amunet's case, accept a defeat) rather than going all in and risking those of everything, including/especially innocent lives.

[Trini]

22 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

It is credit to Jesse L. Martin's awesomeness that I've actually become invested in Joe's fears over being a father again.

It was the best part of the episode. Plus drunk Barry. Everything else was kind of a letdown.

[TDT]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Also: That was the second time they referred back to "This house is bitchin'", so looks like that (and what ever else Barry wrote) will be important at some point this season.

Until they explain HOW DeVoe/Thinker could make those new metahumans, I'm still not buying it. And what use could he have for a guy whose tears make people high?

Probably amassing some sort of army so that there would be a episode where Barry/Flash,Cisco/Vibe,Dibny/Elongated Man and Caitlin/Killer Frost have to "run the gauntlet" so to speak..the episode can even be a homage to The Warriors

[Proteus]

I didn't understand Amunets last scene. Was she selling Weeper? Didn't she need him for her drug supply which is the whole reason she needed Frost back as her muscle?

I wish they'd explain how we went from the finale or Caitlin & KF being merged to them split again. Plus her rejecting Julian's cure but then going to Amunet for a fix.

That said, loved my Danielle Panabaker tonight. She was awesome.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

But Iris was smart enough to know that it was too damned risky to push things and once she'd talked Killer Frost down from just flat-out murdering Amunet, the best move was to let Amunet and her people go and take the win of rescuing the Weeper guy. 

 

But not smart enough to realize that a couple non trained fighters going after a meta surrounded by goons with only a pregnant lady in the most clearly marked Star Labs van ever and a couple guns was really stupid in the first place.  I really want to applaud Iris for her leadership, but she kind of keeps making really bad calls and then only survives out of pure luck.  

The worst part of it was there was no real urgency for them to go in guns blazing.  Sure, Weeper needed rescuing but no one was planning on killing him.  They could have waited a day for the big guns or at least formulated a much better plan.  

Sigh.  I wanted to love this episode but the writing was not great.  The guys' stuff was not bad, it was even good at times, though the side trip with Joe having to talk to Cecile's daughter about why she was stripping seemed really random.  And I got a kick out of Katee Sackhoff's romp.  But to make a lot of the comic lines work on girls' night, they had to suspend common sense and logic.  Like is there any woman out there that would mistake that eyeball dude for a stripper?  Funny line and delivery but getting there made no sense.

And until they get around to explaining why Killer Frost and Caitlin are different people, nothing they really do with the character will really make sense IMO.  

19 minutes ago, Proteus said:

I wish they'd explain how we went from the finale or Caitlin & KF being merged to them split again. Plus her rejecting Julian's cure but then going to Amunet for a fix

 

 THIS!  The way Iris talked, she thinks that Julian's cure just didn't work but Caitlin never took it.  I really don't get what they are trying to do with the character.  

Iris and Caitlin FINALLY becoming friends might seem kind out of nowhere but since they should have been friends ages ago, I'll take it. And I think her being Maid of Honor is just one of those grand gestures.  

Edited November 8, 2017 by BkWurm1

[bmoore4026]

NOBODY TALK SHIT ABOUT RALPH!  HE'S THE BEST THING THAT'S HAPPENED TO THIS SERIES IN A LONG WHILE!

Anyway, drunk Barry is joy incarnate.  As was Amunet.  I hope we see more of her.

I'm sick of Caitlin Frost.  Just be evil or not at all.  Once again, though, lots of ice powered people that aren't evil.  Elsa, Jack Frost, Iceman, and Sailor Mercury - all ice powered, all not evil.  That should be a meme.

And Felicity can do no wrong...at least, on this show.  I am amazed they got away with that Incredible Hulk reference.

Edited November 9, 2017 by bmoore4026

[cambridgeguy]

So is #feminism supposed to be code for suicide on this show?  Because that was the only reason for Iris and Felicity to go into the factory when they had no reliable superpowered backup.  If only Iris had a superhero brother she could call.

Quote

I realize the storylines would not have worked if there had been a large group at either party, but episodes like this kind of reinforce that these people have no friends outside of the people that they work with.

That's pretty much typical for all Arrowverse characters.  If Felicity had a bachelorette party they'd have to drag in guest stars from the other shows too.

[Lady Calypso]

5 hours ago, johntfs said:

I thought it was pretty good writing.  I like the idea of Iris as a team leader who knows when to hold 'em, fold 'em, walk away and run.  Could they have incapacitated Amunet (and her heavily armed recovering thugs)?  As I said before, maybe.  Could they guarantee that Cecile, Felicity, Iris, Killer Frost and/or Weeper guy (who was apparently an innocent dude kidnapped for his powers) would not be maimed or killed while trying to accomplish that?  No, they couldn't.  It wasn't worth it to either Iris or Amunet to push the confrontation at that point.  Sometimes it's best to settle for a partial victory (or in Amunet's case, accept a defeat) rather than going all in and risking those of everything, including/especially innocent lives.

I totally get this, but my feelings on this matter are that the girls have Killer Frost, a metahuman, to take down the goons while they incapacitate Amunet. Personally, I find it insulting that they can have the boys take down villains easily and still capture them without killing, while the girls somehow need other ways to keep goons down, even with a meta on their side. They had ample opportunity to stop Amunet. I get that they couldn't reach Joe or Barry so they couldn't very well zip Amunet into the Pipeline or to Iron Heights, but knocking her out would have helped. KF could have created this big giant ice ball and bonked Amunet over the head, and then they could have dealt with the goons. Iris could have brought some more weapons to take them down. I know they had a couple of weapons, and that would have been the opportunity to grab them from the goons to keep them down.

No; this was just a way to bring back Amunet at a later date, probably working for DeVoe. It was shoddy writing, because now Iris is going to be blamed for a villain escaping. There were ways to get around this issue, so I 100% blame the writing. Like, KF even stated how Amunet was good enough to remain undetected and uncaptured for three years. What the show is telling me, or what I'm interpreting, is that the girls can't capture a villain on their own. They may be able to stop a villain, but they can't finish the job because they need the boys to help out. And maybe that's not their intent at all, but that is how I interpret the whole situation. I don't want to interpret it this way, especially in an episode written by women themselves, but that's how it came across to me. 

Also, what would stop Amunet from finding Iris tomorrow and killing her? Nothing. Amunet even promised Caitlin that she'd be back to destroy her. It's just really sad, that's all. Also, the fact that none of the women told the men of the situation, because Amunet is still out there! It's not like they captured her and she's not a threat. She's still very much a threat.

[benteen]

As if the bachelorette party wasn't an indication, Iris choosing Caitlin as her maid of honor proves that she has no friends whatsoever.

Edited November 8, 2017 by benteen

[Grace19]

Worst episode of the series. For an episode centered on the women, the guys were the most interesting part of it. I don't know any woman that talks like this, "hastag feminism". I can't believe this episode was written by women. smh

Drunk Barry was funny and I just love Ralph, I hope he never leaves.

[immortalfrieza]

6 hours ago, johntfs said:

I thought it was pretty good writing.  I like the idea of Iris as a team leader who knows when to hold 'em, fold 'em, walk away and run.  Could they have incapacitated Amunet (and her heavily armed recovering thugs)?  As I said before, maybe.  Could they guarantee that Cecile, Felicity, Iris, Killer Frost and/or Weeper guy (who was apparently an innocent dude kidnapped for his powers) would not be maimed or killed while trying to accomplish that?  No, they couldn't.  It wasn't worth it to either Iris or Amunet to push the confrontation at that point.  Sometimes it's best to settle for a partial victory (or in Amunet's case, accept a defeat) rather than going all in and risking those of everything, including/especially innocent lives.

Could they have incapacitated Amunet and the thugs? Yes, easily, effortlessly as a matter of fact with zero risk to anyone. The thugs were just a bunch of bog standard humans Frost could have taken down (without killing I might add) with a wave of her hand and Amunet was just reduced to the same. The only thing that was stopping the girls from bringing Amunet and the rest in was the writers wanting to use Amunet again so they just had her walk away for no good reason. What makes this even more of an idiot plot is just had Amunet get captured and then like Weeper had her get broken out and captured by Thinker at some point and done the same thing, it was completely unnecessary for the writers to make the girls morons to do this plot point.

16 minutes ago, Grace19 said:

I don't know any woman that talks like this, "hastag feminism". I can't believe this episode was written by women.

I'd be more surprised if this episode wasn't written by women, very few Real Life women actually talk like that but a lot of Real Life women writers seem to love to write painful "Girl Power!" episodes like this where women DO talk like that. It's nothing more than a blatant empowerment fantasy for the women writing it, not anything that's remotely realistic or makes sense.

Edited November 8, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[DearEvette]

Oof.  I was not happy with this episode.

I get what they were going for, but the execution was all over the place.  Katee Sackhoff did a great job in her role, but does she really need to carry a bucket everywhere in order to execute her power?  It seems so inconvenient.  How the hell is she queen of the underworld, when all you have to do is disable her with magnets? anyhoo...

I wish that they hadn't trotted out Killer Frost.  It would have been so much more fun if the women had saved the day with just their wits.  Like if the story had been simply a group of meta humans holing up in the restaurant where the ladies were and holding everyone hostage.  Even more fun if somehow they had also managed to place the guys in jeopardy, maybe planted a bomb or something at the strip club, the ladies overhear, outwit and incapacitate the bad guys and hurry over to the strip club and defuse the bomb, never knowing the guys were thre or that they saved them. 

The guys story could have stayed the same, because let's face it, Drunk Barry is the BEST Barry.  But the women could have really bonded and it would have given Iris and Caitlyn a reason to work to save themselves and everyone else as just Iris and Caitlyn without the guys.  That could have been the catalyst to bring the two women closer and the last scene between them would have resonated so much better.

[Gregg247]

Usually when I glance at my watch during an episode of "The Flash", its because I can't believe the show is already almost over, and wonder how they'll fit in all the rest of the show into the precious little time we have left.  Last night, I kept looking at my watch, wondering when the show would finally be over.  That was terrible!

The Bachelor Party was fun and I give that side of the episode a pass.  The female portion of the show, though, was a disaster.  Why would these women risk certain death to "take down" a master criminal and her heavily armed minions on their own?  Sure, the guys were unavailable, but doesn't Central City have a fairly competent police force?  And don't they have experience dealing with Metas?  And shouldn't they already be on the hunt for Amulet, since 2 of their officers were just killed in the line of duty? (A fact that was shockingly glossed over.)  I didn't realize that #feminism was about unqualified women doing stupid things while patting themselves on the back for it.  They had a blogger-turned-reporter, a computer techie, a pregnant DA, and a split personality meta vs. Lady Magneto and a room full of machine-gun wielding goons.  LAME!

As a side note, Caitlyn has long been my favorite character on this show, and I really like Killer Frost's take-no-prisoners attitude, but the back and forth switching between them was, well, a little beyond the acting abilities of DP. :(

[RedVitC]

It wasn't my favorite episode, but I liked it quite a bit. I think some of my feelings are because I had really high hopes because of Felicity coming over and I really wanted a one on one scene with Felicity and Iris, especially 

Spoiler

if they're doing the double wedding

.  I disliked some of the things that happened with the guys at the club and the KF plot got more confusing, but overall not bad.

-Iris being forgiving is pretty in character for her (my headcanon now is that since Caitlin asked Joe for forgiveness in ep 1, she also asked Iris somewhere between ep 1 and 2), and I liked that they addressed that Iris and Caitlin never really hang out outside of work. It's funny, because I wanted to see them address that they never really hung out and take it from there and I didn't want to see them go from 0 to 100. We got the acknowledgement, but they also kind of went 0 to 100 with the maid of honor thing. Lol. However, surprisingly I don't hate that she asked (even though despite the fact that Felicity is on another show to me it would have felt more natural for Iris to ask her to be maid of honor for some reason. Their interactions were cute and they have nice friend chemistry. But maybe Felicity is a bridesmaid). During the episode I felt that Iris and KF had better actor chemistry than Iris and Caitlin, but in that last scene with Iris and Caitlin , it worked. It was cute and I was smiling throughout it, despite being a little ? at the maid of honor thing.

-Still not sure how I feel about the baby plot. 

-I like Joanie, but idk if there was time or need for that plot this episode

-It felt a little off to me that in an episode about Barry and Iris' bachelor and bachelorette party we didn't see with just the two of them at all, before or after the parties...a couch scene like last year would have been nice, but they went with a Joe and Cecile couch scene instead. But maybe that's just the WestAllen shipper in me speaking.

-I think Baby Barry and Iris were married by a dinosaur ?

-Why didn't the 2 groups tell each other what happened? At the very least they need to tell them that they know who the 4th bus meta is????? And that there's a dangerous criminal who will probably come back to get revenge. Now that I write this, I realize that they probably did tell the guys about Amunet at least (and probably the meta). That's what Caitlin was telling the group at the end as the camera panned away. There's no way she could have told that the story of how she got into this mess and not mentioned Amunet.

-Speaking of which, the more explanations they try to give about Caitlin's powers and KF the more confusing it becomes. So now we're going with a hulk situation where one doesn't know what the other does. Or rather, where Caitlin doesn't know what KF does, even though KF has all Caitlin's memories. Except last season we saw that Caitlin did remember the things she/KF did. And when she snapped out of it the first time she didn't look around dazed and confused about what had happened, she cried because she remembered the bad things she had done. Maybe they're going for a Caitlin suppresses the memories of KF's actions thing (this would be a great time to remember Iris studied criminal psychology show!)

- I noticed they reverted Caitlin a bit in this episode. In 4.01 Caitlin was dressing different etc, but here they had her go back to the pencil skirts. I guess to maximize the contrast. 

-If I understand correctly, instead of going back to the team to get Julian's potion when she felt KF becoming stronger, Caitlin went to work for someone who sells metahumans (or did she just sell tech before?). I wonder if they'll expand on that, not that I want to add another layer of guilt. Maybe she doesn't really want to get rid of KF. If KF really is another personality inside Caitlin, why would she not want that gone for good? Why the need to be both?

-While I like Iris as the team leader and that she's consistently been more involved in the cases each week, I really hope we get a glimpse of CCPN soon. Having said that, there's absolutely no reason to question why she's at Star Labs so much even with her job. Barry is and has always been at Star Labs and in the city as The Flash more than Iris, and he also has a fulltime job. You can even handwave it more for Iris' reporter job since (on TV at least, probably not so much in the real world) reporters are in the field a lot, which is how Kara on Supergirl gets away with being gone from her job so often. With Barry's job they even made a point last season that Julian wouldn't let him leave until the work day was over so they are on the clock. Plus I never see anyone question how Joe can be at Star Labs so much when he also has a fulltime job.