S02.E07: The Most Disappointed Man

[kilda]

part of the problem with that is that it allows parents to drag out a case for years, then use those years as evidence they should get to keep the child so as not to disrupt her life.  Generally in cases like this, the prospective adoptive family knows from very early on that there is going to be a legal issue, and that they are very unlikely to win the legal case.  The law on adoption cases for children with native american heritage is very clear, and the writing was always on the wall that they were going to lose that case.  They chose to fight, knowing that, and of course legal cases take a long time, so by the time the final decision is made, you have a 6 year old being taken from people who she has been with a long time.  They chose to make that happen, hoping that by then the legal system would feel obliged to keep her with them because they had been the only parents she had known for so long.  Whether you agree with the outcome or not, those parents knew they were probably going to lose, and they made it far harder on the child by dragging it out.

[luna1122]

more endless monologues. Be you a junkie, a felon, a judge, a doctor, or a kid, if you're on this show, you're gonna have a four page monologue.

Of course the judges are pals. And of course, they both break protocol for this family.

I adore Kevin but the addiction story is so quick and so uninspired and pedestrian and I do not care. Poor Sophie. Have we ever had any interaction between Sophie and Kate as adults? I wanted to see that.

The Deja/mom/Randall stuff is so heavy handed.

And of course, Toby and Kate having a quickie wedding is considered sub par and inferior. I realize that most (I guess) women want a big splashy affair, but there are those of us who never ever dreamed of one, and find it all too personal and intimate to want to share with a million folks, or who lack the romance gene and want to be married but don't want the ceremony, or whatever the reasons, but apparently--on tv,, at least-- those women are freaks. And hell, I watch Say Yes to the Dress all the time too, but I still hate weddings.

Loved hearing Jason Isbell's "If We Were Vampires" while Kevin dreamed of how terrible a husband and dad he'd be.

[PRgal]

6 hours ago, CelticBlackCat said:

Not a specific warning, just the usual TV-14, suitable for age 14 and older.  I believe (and this is JMHO) that if a white person said that word, there would be a big mess to clean up.  Since a black man said it in the context of his own experience, it is deemed acceptable, apparently.

I see.  Canadian viewers got a warning - I don't think CTV typically gives a warning for This is Us. 

[Quickbeam]

Enjoyed this episode except strung out Kevin. I can't have him go down the drain, can't he get anything happy on this show? 

I'm loving the foster care storyline. When I was a probation officer, I placed a lot of children in foster homes. 35 years later, many of those now adults consider the foster parents their real family. Even if they were put back into a bio-genetic family situation. I see a lot of potential for Deja to have role models even if she goes back with her mother. 

[Phoebe70]

Ho hum, another boring episode that caused me to like the majority of the characters less and less.  In Season 1, I looked forward to Tuesday nights and was glued to the show.  In Season 2, I find myself forcing to watch it and even then I'm still walking in and out of the room doing other stuff like laundry because the show no longer holds my attention.  I'll give it a few more episodes and then I'm done.

[fountain]

To me it wasn’t a 100% clear why Deja’s mom was in jail if she was dealing or what, to me it didn’t seem like she was abusive it was the other foster care that was.  I do find Randall being the birth child of drug addicts and the adopted child of a saint alcoholic being a bit judgemental considering his own upbringing. Maybe those things make him more judgemental and not less. I personally thought he would have tried to convince the mom she should have seen Deja even with the eye.  

I don’t really think Randall is right for foster parenting if he doesn’t support families getting back together, that is the goal of the program, keep kids safe, get parents help and reunite.  I am just surprised by it because look at how much foregiveness and love Randall had for William and with Deja’s mom he was so judgemental and a jerk.  Heck Randall even forgave his own mom pretty easily for her roll in knowing William and asking him to stay away.

[JudyObscure]

6 hours ago, kissedbyarose said:

While Randall was being a judgemental tool, I can kind of see where his anger comes from. Hasn’t Deja’s mom been in and out of jail and thus Deja has been placed in foster homes several times? And Deja just recently told Randall about her experience at the last home. And it’s not like her mom gave the social worker a reason why she didn’t want to see Deja (even a lie with a come see me next week attached) so with all this knowledge by the time he goes to see her mom he was already amped with this speech in his head.

I have sympathy for Deja’s mom but I’m not ready to be all on her team. I grew up in the projects so I know all about options, choices and who makes it out etc. But her story was “I met a no-good shifty dude in rehab and that’s why I’m in jail...” she could miss me with that excuse. Surely she wasn’t thinking about Deja when that happened.

You made me rethink everything.  You're right,  I can't think of many situations where an American woman has no "option," but to break the law or to bring shady men into her little girl's home.

[kili]

Quote

I have sympathy for Deja’s mom but I’m not ready to be all on her team. I grew up in the projects so I know all about options, choices and who makes it out etc. But her story was “I met a no-good shifty dude in rehab and that’s why I’m in jail...” she could miss me with that excuse.

I kind of got the vibe from that conversation that her no-good shifty dude is the reason she's in jail. I suspect that he hid the gun in her glove-box without her knowledge. When she was stopped for driving the car and searched (for whatever reason - she may have even consented thinking there was no reason not to or she could be on probation and they have the right to search her car whenever), they found it and threw her in jail. I think it was the resentful way that she said her ex told her he was on the other side of the glass that made me t think that. Since this was stated as more serious than whatever low-level trouble she was getting into earlier, it's possible that it wasn't really her direct choice that ended her in jail (she made the bad choice of trusting the wrong person, but not the bad choice of illegally carrying the gun).

[MelGoLightly]

4 hours ago, debraran said:

9 hours ago, MelGoLightly said:

Unrelated: I had the impression this whole time that Randall's birth mom died while giving birth. Where did I come up with that? Baby Randall was born the day of the drop off, right? 

She was unless they rewrite the script. It's in the "This is Us" bios and Randall's dad told him that when they got to know each other. He told the judge he lost his "girl" and son recently (just left out he left him at firehouse) Little Randall never knew and tried to find her as a child with an ad.

That part was sad, I don't know how much Rebecca knew then, at what age she saw him again, but to let him think she was alive or his dad was dead, it's just sad.

Okay - so I didn't make that up. Thanks! There's a lot of talk on this thread about how unrealistic it would be for the media and police to not be involved with the situation because they'd be looking for a body. I'm to believe that Birthmom dies during labor/delivery, she's taken by ambulance, coroner, or stays in hospital. William's is given full custody in the aftermath and he is overwhelmed by grief, stress, panic, and anonymously drops off the baby at the firehouse. I don't know why cops would be involved or that it would be particularly newsworthy as many in the episode thread have argued. 

I think (and I am guilty of this) a lot of Law and Order SVU watching can make viewers wrongly think that more stuff makes the news than really does. There are times I hear about house fires or car accidents IRL that I can't find anywhere on the news. I am guessing that more babies than we realize are abandoned through these sanctioned methods. 

As with most television and movies, you are asked to suspend disbelief to an extent and just enjoy the ride. My feeling on TIU is that they do a decent job with a really complex storyline for an ensemble cast that spans 6 decades (not to mention the backstory stuff we have seen from the 40s, 60s). I'm just gonna keep popping my popcorn, sipping my wine, and being entertained.

Edited November 9, 2017 by MelGoLightly

[Clanstarling]

13 hours ago, elle said:

Did Deja's mom say that in another episode?   I thought the person that left was the ex-boyfriend who was not Deja's father.

I may have misinterpreted - but I thought she answered "left when she was 8" to a question Randall had asked (or implied) about Deja's father, and that the other man was a separate person - and in the context of talking about him, it sounded like she was actively involved with him before she got arrested.

13 hours ago, Silly Angel said:

I'm weirdly invested in Toby, Kate and baby. They don't actually bore me. Annoy, sometimes, but I have come around on Toby I feel like he knows he's a lot to take, and whether it was patience or just settling, Kate tolerated it and found herself with the right guy. That feels to me pretty real, realer than awesome Kate, who's been used or ignored, finding the perfect man from the jump. However, after they told Kevin, they went to the next person on their list--Toby's mom. What kind of order were they going in? One sibling, one parent, etc? I hate hate hate how Randall has always been the plus-one to Kate and Kevin.

I'd say they were going by proximity, but since it was a phone call to Toby's mother and I don't know where she lives, I'm not sure. I can see she'd pick Kevin first, because they live in the same town and is the only person (maybe) she'll tell face to face. Then Toby has to tell one of his family (maybe Mom is it). I expect Rebecca to be the last one.

53 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

And of course, Toby and Kate having a quickie wedding is considered sub par and inferior. I realize that most (I guess) women want a big splashy affair, but there are those of us who never ever dreamed of one, and find it all too personal and intimate to want to share with a million folks, or who lack the romance gene and want to be married but don't want the ceremony, or whatever the reasons, but apparently--on tv,, at least-- those women are freaks. And hell, I watch Say Yes to the Dress all the time too, but I still hate weddings.

I feel you. We were married by a judge - and have fun stories and fond memories. Then we had a nice party after. I grew up overseas in a country where the civil union was the legal one, and the church wedding was an option, but not necessary. So I wasn't "married" <wink> to the idea of a big wedding - and wouldn't have thrown down that kind of cash anyway.

[laurakaye]

On 11/7/2017 at 10:14 PM, RogerDodger said:

I think its wrong that my favorite moment of the episode was the social worker's take down of Randall.

If this is wrong, I don't want to be right.

 

16 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

Should we start a pool about which member of the family is going to realize that Kevin's in trouble? I can't see it being Kate, because that would be too neat, plot-wise, but it'd be kind of interesting if it's a supporting player and not a Pearson - Miguel would be an interesting choice.  Maybe Toby (who already seemed to get that there might be more to it than just knee surgery frustration when he was trying to get Kevin off the treadmill).  Seems unlikely that it would be Beth, but maybe if Deja makes some kind of offhand remark about Kevin's behavior that brings everything into focus? That could also be interesting, so long as it doesn't come with a side of Kevin doing anything to scare any of the girls, which would be too dark for this show.

My money's on Deja as well, just because I can already hear the dramatic monologues that might come along with it.  But honestly, the makeup department is painting Kevin as extremely disheveled and sweaty, so how can it be possible that no one has recognized that something is wrong with him?  Other than a couple of "are you okays" to Kevin from Randall and Sophie, I find it difficult to believe that he's so invisible to his family that no one actually sees him or his problem.  The "Everyone Ignores Kevin" storyline is too heavy-handed for me.

 

14 hours ago, ThatsDarling said:

I think Toby secretly wants the big wedding for himself. The man is a shameless ham and wouldn't want to be denied the spotlight a wedding would provide. I wouldn't be surprised to see him twerking down the aisle to ABBA's "I Do, I Do, I Do, I Do, I Do."

This absolutely needs to happen.  If I were Kate I'd be terrified at the thought of Toby behaving himself all throughout the wedding and reception.  That's a long time for him to go without making an ass of himself.

Edited November 9, 2017 by laurakaye

[MelGoLightly]

23 hours ago, Good Queen Jane said:

On 11/8/2017 at 0:42 AM, MelGoLightly said:

I really liked the two judges' scene at the end.

I must have zoned out on this. Can someone please recap it for me?

The two judges from the cases shown in the episode - Randall's adoption judge and William's criminal case judge - are shown together in a break room of sorts, showing the viewer that they apparently work in the same courthouse and that the trials were held more or less simultaneously unbeknownst to William and/or The Pearsons. One judge says to the other "do anything good today" and the family court judge says "I have no idea..." and asks the same to William's judge. He replies something like "I don't know..." or "no clue" and the scene ends. 

[kilda]

16 hours ago, saber5055 said:

And while I don't know anything about Deja's mom (I only watch this show with one eye and half a brain), she spoke perfect English, which IMO means she is educated and not a welfare/street/no-upbringing person. So yeah, I can totally see her getting Deja back. Although supposedly Deja has been bounced around in foster care for most of her life which just doesn't jive with Deja's mom being so articulate and obviously caring about her daughter.

I didn't think that was inconsistent at all.  People can be educated, and care about their child, but still make bad decisions, involving drugs, or alcohol, or relationships.  I think part of the point of Deja's story line is to show that it's not black and white - parents whose kids end up in foster care aren't necessarily monsters.  They're flawed people who love their kids but made bad mistakes.  Sometimes they make those mistakes repeatedly, instead of learning from them, which it sounds like Deja's mom has, hence her going in and out of foster care.

[kili]

Quote

 People can be educated, and care about their child, but still make bad decisions, involving drugs, or alcohol, or relationships.

They may also use Kevin and Deja's mom as contrasting stories. Perhaps Deja's Mom also got addicted to pain killers after an injury (a car accident which took Deja's dad?) and there was nobody to support her when she spiralled. She ended up on the wrong side of the glass. Kevin's money and family may save him from suffering the same fate. William is the third leg of that story because while he ended up with no support system, a judge gave him a chance.

Edited November 9, 2017 by kili

[sadie]

On 11/8/2017 at 7:29 AM, Katy M said:

Especially to tell them that they are being racist and biased.

 

I think he got a head start, so to speak, because he was addicted to pills when he broke his leg before. He kicked and was clean, but taking them again triggered his addiction.  If he hadn't had the previous problem, the build probably would have been slower.

I have addiction in my family so this didn’t seem off. An addiction counselor once told me that when someone is clean for a while and then starts using again they don’t start back at Step1 of addiction, they go right back to where the addiction left off, there is no slow build, it’s BAM like you never stopped using. That said enough of sweaty Kevin. Give him something better to do. Ugh the way he broke up with Sophie was just terrible and made me not want to like him anymore (but I’m shallow and can’t resist the pretty!). 

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Katy M said:

I thought the whole point of the safe harbor drops was to be able to remain anonymous.

Safe Haven laws came many years after Randall's abandonment.  They were mainly enacted to stop infanticide of unwanted newborns.  Though giving parents a legal, anonymous way to abandon their child was the solution.  

10 hours ago, MelGoLightly said:

Ahhh it just occurred to me that this scene was meant to mirror Jack & Rebecca with her at the door and him admitting his addiction. 

I think they use the 'doorstop monologue' device a lot.  We also saw a peak back at Randall's tonight, on William's doorstop.  

39 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I may have misinterpreted - but I thought she answered "left when she was 8" to a question Randall had asked (or implied) about Deja's father, and that the other man was a separate person - and in the context of talking about him, it sounded like she was actively involved with him before she got arrested.

I think she said the 'left when she was 8' guy wasn't Deja's father, just a boyfriend.  

I'm glad they revisited some legalities of Randall's adoption, but would it really take a year to settle, with such a clear cut case (no bio parents, etc.)?  It seems like any court would know that ripping a one-year-old from the only (and perfectly lovely) family he's had would be ridiculous, regardless of any race issues.  Where were these racially indignant authorities for the past year?  Continuity of care is more crucial than photo quality or hair care or whatever else the reasons were.  Though, granted, I didn't listen closely.  

I think the silliest thing they do lately is the slimy-faced Kevin.  They don't trust the audience to recognize addiction so they practically paint it on his forehead in neon.  I have to give House credit for showing the version of it I see-- that you can't see.  A lot of professionals function with addictions without looking like street junkies or falling asleep all over the place.  That's partly why it's so insidious.  I know there are also the addicts who spiral at record speed, like Kevin, but I just prefer the less heavy handed story, especially if they're going to keep writing the people around him as oblivious.  

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, MelGoLightly said:

Okay - so I didn't make that up. Thanks! There's a lot of talk on this thread about how unrealistic it would be for the media and police to not be involved with the situation because they'd be looking for a body. I'm to believe that Birthmom dies during labor/delivery, she's taken by ambulance, coroner, or stays in hospital. William's is given full custody in the aftermath and he is overwhelmed by grief, stress, panic, and anonymously drops off the baby at the firehouse. I don't know why cops would be involved or that it would be particularly newsworthy as many in the episode thread have argued. 

The cops would be involved because she died at home.  William took the baby immediately, or soon after, on the same day, on the bus and dropped him at the firehouse.  He wasn't given custody, nobody knew the circumstances, it all happened in one day.  However the mother's body was discovered, it would have been clear she had given birth and no baby in sight.  That would be newsworthy, and so would baby being dropped off at firehouse.  Then, 2 + 2.  That's what doesn't add up, so far, until they give us something more that might explain it. 

[PRgal]

4 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

 

I'm glad they revisited some legalities of Randall's adoption, but would it really take a year to settle, with such a clear cut case (no bio parents, etc.)?  It seems like any court would know that ripping a one-year-old from the only (and perfectly lovely) family he's had would be ridiculous, regardless of any race issues.  Where were these racially indignant authorities for the past year?  Continuity of care is more crucial than photo quality or hair care or whatever else the reasons were.  Though, granted, I didn't listen closely.  

  

It could.  They could have spent months trying to look for Randall's birthparents before "officially" declaring him "adoptable."  And then there are the social worker visits, etc, etc...  I know someone whose son was not officially adopted until he was a year old.  What I am unsure of is whether he was already being fostered in their home at birth (or shortly after birth).  However, this was in the early 90s, a good 10 years after Randall.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

The cops would be involved because she died at home.  William took the baby immediately, or soon after, on the same day, on the bus and dropped him at the firehouse.  He wasn't given custody, nobody knew the circumstances, it all happened in one day.  However the mother's body was discovered, it would have been clear she had given birth and no baby in sight.  That would be newsworthy, and so would baby being dropped off at firehouse.  Then, 2 + 2.  That's what doesn't add up, so far, until they give us something more that might explain it. 

Unless they never found the body.  I'm not sure how that would have happened: Randall or someone else burying her deep in the woods, someone dumping her in the river, a wolf coming and completely devouring the corpse.

[ShadowFacts]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Unless they never found the body.  I'm not sure how that would have happened: Randall or someone else burying her deep in the woods, someone dumping her in the river, a wolf coming and completely devouring the corpse.

I know you mean William, and I think he has been written as someone who would never participate in defiling his darling person's body, drug addict or not, so if the writers went in that direction I would truly be appalled.   If the body just disappeared by somebody else's action, I would find that to be pretty unbelievable writing as well.  I think they screwed up, but I guess it remains to be seen.  I could be eating my words. 

[Guest]

I think they had to hand-wave a lot of details about Randall's birth to make William a character the audience didn't hate.  In reality, police and social services would have been involved and would have given William options.  But for Randall to wind up with the Pearsons so young William would've had to say, "No, no foster home until I can detox, take him forever, I don't want him ever, even after an attempt at rehab, and I don't want anyone in my bio family  or the mother's bio family to have him, either."  Basically, he would've had to wash his hands of him despite having less drastic options available.  

I think that's part of why I don't blame Rebecca for keeping William a secret.  In reality, he wouldn't be this poor victim of circumstance.  He and his girlfriend used crack or heroin or whatever while gestating a baby.  They got zero pre-natal care.  He abandoned it back when that was still illegal.  He didn't go through legal channels to get the baby care until he could make a more informed decision about his fate.  So his lingering in the background and turning up on Rebecca was bullshit, to me.  

Edited November 9, 2017 by Guest

[doodlebug]

11 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

Its more complicated than that.(This case was big on my heavily NA social media feeds for a while) The fact the foster parents were getting some help from some fairly racist organizations for one. (There were some groups who got involved with helping cover the foster parents legal fees who clearly thought protecting the child's whiteness was paramount) I also seem to remember the foster father made some comments that made it clear he should not be raising a mixed race child. They are also the ones who called in the media circus hopping to stir up a public outcry. Frankly they were lucky to keep the kids they had by the time it was all over.    Also the law that came into play in this case was because of residential schools and other racist policies that split up Native families. I also think placing the child with family is optimal and usually in the best interest of the child unless they are actually unfit.

It was heroin not crack that Randall's mother was using. In the final scene William is preparing a needle you inject heroin, you smoke crack.  Heroin doesn't have as many ill effects on unborn babies like crack does, which why opiodes are used in epidural's. Heroin doesn't cross the placenta so the only ill effects Randall might have had at birth are more likely to be from his mothers poor nutrition than anything else. 

That is not true. Heroin crosses the placenta and babies born to women addicted to heroin are also addicted and need to be detoxed and weaned off of it.  There are also multiple developmental issues with kids exposed to drugs in the womb.  The show ignored all that; but, in real life, newborn Randall would've been in the throes of withdrawal shortly after birth and would've been in neonatal intensive care for weeks.

[doodlebug]

17 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I know you mean William, and I think he has been written as someone who would never participate in defiling his darling person's body, drug addict or not, so if the writers went in that direction I would truly be appalled.   If the body just disappeared by somebody else's action, I would find that to be pretty unbelievable writing as well.  I think they screwed up, but I guess it remains to be seen.  I could be eating my words. 

And how a rather slight, drug addicted man, or anyone else, could move a corpse from an inner city apartment and bury it without anyone noticing is unbelievable, too.  In real life, someone in the apartments would've called the cops when the body started to decay and she would've been discovered.  Then, the coroner would easily notice that she had recently given birth and she would be connected to the abandoned baby in withdrawal at the hospital.  Genetic testing would confirm it.  At that point, even if William remained unknown, his neighbors in the building would surely be interviewed and someone, probably the landlord, would identify him.  If he was unable to care for the baby, he would legally surrender his rights and then the mother's surviving family would be located and given the opportunity to get custody.  It would be months, probably years, before Randall was available for adoption.

[RHJunkie]

12 hours ago, fountain said:

To me it wasn’t a 100% clear why Deja’s mom was in jail if she was dealing or what, to me it didn’t seem like she was abusive it was the other foster care that was.  I do find Randall being the birth child of drug addicts and the adopted child of a saint alcoholic being a bit judgemental considering his own upbringing. Maybe those things make him more judgemental and not less. I personally thought he would have tried to convince the mom she should have seen Deja even with the eye.  

I don’t really think Randall is right for foster parenting if he doesn’t support families getting back together, that is the goal of the program, keep kids safe, get parents help and reunite.  I am just surprised by it because look at how much foregiveness and love Randall had for William and with Deja’s mom he was so judgemental and a jerk.  Heck Randall even forgave his own mom pretty easily for her roll in knowing William and asking him to stay away.

It's a bit judgemental but I see it with reason. Randall may have been the product of drug addicts but his parents made a decision that made sure he wouldn't be caught up in the cycle of their addictions and bad decisions. I think his experience of getting to know his biological father later in life probably allowed him to greater appreciate how his life ended up without them. It may have been hard as a child wondering who your parents are and why you couldn't be with them or why they didn't want you  but as an adult he was able to understand that it was the best thing they could have done for him.

Deja is obviously close to her mother. And her mother has instilled a 'it's us against the world' mentality in Deja. Deja despite her age feels the burden of having to take care of her mother when at this stage in her life, it should be her mother taking care of her. So far, I don't see Randall opposed to families getting back together. He even tried to talk some sense into his wife when she refused to let Deja ever see her mom again so long as Deja was living with them. What I think Randall sees is a mother who sees her daughter as the best thing she's ever done in life and she's holding on to dear life to that relationship but it's not necessarily in the best interest of her daughter and I think that's what Randall's trigger is.  I think Randall sees Deja's mom as being selfish by constantly putting Deja in the position of having to jump from foster home to foster home and learn to navigate the world on her own while patiently waiting for her mom to get out of jail and get her.

The reality is that both sides are looking at the situation from an extreme. Randall probably feels that Deja's mom is not in a place where she is having any kind of positive impact on Deja and therefore is selfish by constantly coming into her life only to screw up and have to be taken away from Deja which creates instability in Deja's life. Deja's mom probably feels that no matter what she's going through, as Deja's mom she will always be what's best for Deja and Deja will always be what's best for her. I'm assuming this storyline will meet in the middle where both sides realize that what's best for Deja is to have both sides in her life to help make a positive impact.

Edited November 10, 2017 by RHJunkie

[chabelisaywow]

I just recently heard of this show and binge watched Season One a few weeks ago.  Watching the new episodes every week  is like pulling teeth.

[kili]

I come from a place with neither cheerleaders nor drill teams (or even marching bands). Deja's mom was insistent that they were different things and Randall agreed. What's the difference and why was Deja's mom so adamant?

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, kili said:

I come from a place with neither cheerleaders nor drill teams (or even marching bands). Deja's mom was insistent that they were different things and Randall agreed. What's the difference and why was Deja's mom so adamant?

Oversimplified, but cheerleaders us pom poms, drill team uses flags.  cheerleaders lead cheers for the game, drill teams do marches with the band.

My sister was on the drill team.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Katy M

[Blakeston]

19 hours ago, GodsBeloved said:

If Rebecca and Jack, who just had twins, could/would take on the responsibility of caring for a crack addicted baby, I can't believe there weren't at least some black couples who would have taken Randall. For that reason, I don't see crack addicted baby Randall's fate being a childhood in foster care but for the Pearsons.

Rebecca and Jack would never have even considered adopting a crack baby if it weren't for the extremely unusual circumstance they were in - and in real life, people in that situation almost certainly wouldn't have been able to foster or adopt.

I suspect Randall would have been adopted eventually by a black couple. But there didn't seem to be one readily available. The judge's assumption was that he'd have to be in foster care until they could find someone.

All of this said, aside from Randall's comment in the first episode about being a crack baby, I have to wonder if the writers have given any thought at all to the idea that Randall was born with an addiction. In the episode where we saw the firefighter bring him home, he was totally silent - which is hardly what one would expect from an infant going through withdrawal.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Blakeston

[ChromaKelly]

28 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Rebecca and Jack would never have even considered adopting a crack baby if it weren't for the extremely unusual circumstance they were in - and in real life, people in that situation almost certainly wouldn't have been able to foster or adopt.

I suspect Randall would have been adopted eventually by a black couple. But there didn't seem to be one readily available. The judge's assumption was that he'd have to be in foster care until they could find someone.

All of this said, aside from Randall's comment in the first episode about being a crack baby, I have to wonder if the writers have given any thought at all to the idea that Randall was born with an addiction. In the episode where we saw the firefighter bring him home, he was totally silent - which is hardly what one would expect from an infant going through withdrawal.

There's been hardly any mention of withdrawal symptoms or him struggling at all as an infant. Now, the effects of being born addicted can vary and not every child ends up with delays or special needs, but the withdrawal period is real and IMHO, there's no way they would have given that baby to the Pearsons. I really wish they would have just left that out, it makes an already unrealistic story even moreso.

[Guest]

When did he say he was a crack baby?  Was he being sarcastic?  

[PRgal]

Just now, Winston9-DT3 said:

When did he say he was a crack baby?  Was he being sarcastic?  

I'm pretty sure both Laurel and William were using when Laurel was pregnant with him. 

[Guest]

I feel like the show has deliberately skirted that issue, too.  

[Blakeston]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

When did he say he was a crack baby?  Was he being sarcastic?  

Someone here said that he made a comment about being a crack baby in the first episode. I can't vouch for the accuracy of that, though.

I also can't remember if there was ever acknowledgement that Kevin developed an addiction to painkillers the first time he hurt his knee. I've seen comments here about how Kevin got hooked on pills as a teenager, then got clean, and now is hooked again. But has that ever been stated on the show?

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

Someone here said that he made a comment about being a crack baby in the first episode. I can't vouch for the accuracy of that, though.

I also can't remember if there was ever acknowledgement that Kevin developed an addiction to painkillers the first time he hurt his knee. I've seen comments here about how Kevin got hooked on pills as a teenager, then got clean, and now is hooked again. But has that ever been stated on the show?

It hasn't been stated as fact, but I think it was implied when he hurt his leg in the present and was attempting not to use the pain pills at first.

[MsChicklet]

9 hours ago, kilda said:

parents whose kids end up in foster care aren't necessarily monsters.  They're flawed people who love their kids but made bad mistakes.  Sometimes they make those mistakes repeatedly, instead of learning from them, which it sounds like Deja's mom has, hence her going in and out of foster care.

This. I feel bad for Deja's mom. But I also understand why Randall would want to protect Deja from her. She needs to do a lot more than just get out of jail to be ready to take care of her daughter again. She may have to find somewhere to live, and find a way to provide for them. And doing all that with a possible felony conviction is going to be hard.

[Cardie]

13 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think his bottom could easily come from an accidental overdose -- they've shown him drinking more than once, and the combination can be lethal.

The Kevin story so far has been that no one notices when things aren't going well for him. I expect the first time anyone will realize he's addicted to opioids will come when the hospital calls about him ODing and being saved by a first responder with Narcan (sp?).

[BoogieBurns]

6 hours ago, Katy M said:

Oversimplified, but cheerleaders us pom poms, drill team uses flags.  cheerleaders lead cheers for the game, drill teams do marches with the band.

My sister was on the drill team.

@kili It's different here.

Cheerleaders are the ones who are gymnasts and cheer by the field throughout games. They chant and wear minimal clothing for all the tricks they can do. They are also the ones who get in pyramids, like in Bring It On.

ColorGuard is the group of gals who hold flags and barely dance while marching band accompanies them. They basically are baton twirlers with flags instead of batons. This group wears black and are the most modestly dressed of the three groups. They are a part of the band at all practices. Sorry to stereotype, but these were not the coolest girls, so I don't think this is where Deja would go. 

Drill Team, the best of the three, is the group that dances at Pep Rallies and during halftime shows. They are similar to the Rockettes. This group dresses for the occasion and sits together during football games with "seated choreography". Drill Team was the ONLY one of the three that (at my school) had black girls (one of them being yours truly). It was all about rhythm and natural talent. I think the difference to Deja's mom makes more sense if she was talking about this type of Drill Team. The dancers. 

Edited November 10, 2017 by BoogieBurns

[Cardie]

Aren't drill teams super important at historically black colleges, where they do amazing routines? I think the point Deja's mother was making was that Deja is doing something with a long African American tradition and Randall seemed not to recognize that drill team was nothing like (white-coded) cheerleading.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Someone here said that he made a comment about being a crack baby in the first episode. I can't vouch for the accuracy of that, though.

I also can't remember if there was ever acknowledgement that Kevin developed an addiction to painkillers the first time he hurt his knee. I've seen comments here about how Kevin got hooked on pills as a teenager, then got clean, and now is hooked again. But has that ever been stated on the show?

I can't swear to it but I'm pretty sure they never actually said Randall was a crack baby.  I think they kept his parents' acts short of child abuse, to keep William likable.  And I think they didn't want to suggest Randall really did have some physical issue that made him 'less than' (besides his feeling his blackness and adoptedness does).  

I also don't think Kevin was necessarily an addict before.  I thought he was hesitant to take them now because of his dad's addiction.  He glanced at the pills then at Jack on the tv that time, like "hmmm, not sure this is a good idea."  Plus he started out saying he didn't like them because they made him feel out of it.  That's not how an addict would react, I don't think.  I think at first you don't like the high feeling, then you learn to love it.  

[sasha206]

13 hours ago, luna1122 said:

more endless monologues. Be you a junkie, a felon, a judge, a doctor, or a kid, if you're on this show, you're gonna have a four page monologue.

Of course the judges are pals. And of course, they both break protocol for this family.

I adore Kevin but the addiction story is so quick and so uninspired and pedestrian and I do not care. Poor Sophie. Have we ever had any interaction between Sophie and Kate as adults? I wanted to see that.

The Deja/mom/Randall stuff is so heavy handed.

And of course, Toby and Kate having a quickie wedding is considered sub par and inferior. I realize that most (I guess) women want a big splashy affair, but there are those of us who never ever dreamed of one, and find it all too personal and intimate to want to share with a million folks, or who lack the romance gene and want to be married but don't want the ceremony, or whatever the reasons, but apparently--on tv,, at least-- those women are freaks. And hell, I watch Say Yes to the Dress all the time too, but I still hate weddings.

Loved hearing Jason Isbell's "If We Were Vampires" while Kevin dreamed of how terrible a husband and dad he'd be.

Bravo on all!  Esp. to the nod to Isbell.  I am a huge Isbell and also Drive By Truckers fan!

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I also don't think Kevin was necessarily an addict before.  I thought he was hesitant to take them now because of his dad's addiction.  He glanced at the pills then at Jack on the tv that time, like "hmmm, not sure this is a good idea."  Plus he started out saying he didn't like them because they made him feel out of it. That's not how an addict would react, I don't think.  I think at first you don't like the high feeling, then you learn to love it.  

That was my take as well, especially the bolded part. I got the impression that he didn't want the painkillers because he wanted to be sharp for his scenes in the Stallone movie. Having already been thrown off once before when Stallone mentioned his dad, he was anxious not to mess up again.

On the other hand, the spiraling happened very quickly for him - not sure if that's normal for a first-time painkiller addiction.

[debraran]

4 hours ago, chocolatine said:

That was my take as well, especially the bolded part. I got the impression that he didn't want the painkillers because he wanted to be sharp for his scenes in the Stallone movie. Having already been thrown off once before when Stallone mentioned his dad, he was anxious not to mess up again.

On the other hand, the spiraling happened very quickly for him - not sure if that's normal for a first-time painkiller addiction.

I disagree on this one, I think the "don't like how they make me feel" was an excuse because he knew what happened last time. He didn't want to admit he was addicted to them before. I've heard addicts who were clean say that line or "I'm allergic to Codeine and most pain killers" I didn't like how Codeine made my stomach feel, but Percocet for one day when I got a tooth pulled was fine.  Kevin was afraid of the pills and his sister knew something.  Time will tell, but he spiraled way too fast.

I almost wish the writers didn't say, when the dog, the girlfriend and the broken knee come together, that's the day, it makes me almost dread it instead of it being just part of the show. I guess they feel it fuels interest, but I'd rather not know the cute dog has to be part of it. lol

Edited November 10, 2017 by debraran

[Bringonthedrama]

On 11/8/2017 at 4:39 PM, saber5055 said:

I just couldn't with 30+ year old Toby being scared to death to tell his OTT Catholic mother Kate is pregnant. If Mom is that dyed-in-the-wool conservative religious, then Toby's divorce should have killed her years ago. 

THIS, especially because as far as we know Toby did not get divorced because it was a mentally or physically abusive relationship, or because one of them was cheating.  A very conservative Catholic parent would be deeply upset that their child married and divorced young , and no grandchildren resulted from the marriage on top of that.  After that, I think a mother should/would be happy (or at least not that upset) that her child is marrying a woman and they're having a baby.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, Bringonthedrama said:

THIS, especially because as far as we know Toby did not get divorced because it was a mentally or physically abusive relationship, or because one of them was cheating.  A very conservative Catholic parent would be deeply upset that their child married and divorced young , and no grandchildren resulted from the marriage on top of that.  After that, I think a mother should/would be happy (or at least not that upset) that her child is marrying a woman and they're having a baby.

I'm sure she was upset over the divorce. That does not mean that she can not now get upset that he impregnated someone outside of marriage.  Not sure why someone only gets to be upset about one thing in their entire life.

and, I can't remember. Is ex-wife remarried?  If not, mom would probably prefer Toby to remarry her.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Katy M

[needschocolate]

On 11/7/2017 at 7:10 PM, ShadowFacts said:

Toby needs to never speak to the urn again.  

I think it was a one-time urn conversation and the show was just looking for a way to let the audience know what Toby's thinking.  He doesn't have any friends that we know of for him to have lunch with and discuss it.  Kevin is the only one they could reasonably show him talking to and it would detract from Kevin's spiraling-downward-due-to-a-drug-addiction storyline. 

[Katy M]

19 minutes ago, needschocolate said:

I think it was a one-time urn conversation and the show was just looking for a way to let the audience know what Toby's thinking.  He doesn't have any friends that we know of for him to have lunch with and discuss it.  Kevin is the only one they could reasonably show him talking to and it would detract from Kevin's spiraling-downward-due-to-a-drug-addiction storyline. 

He has that one friend that he invited to watch football with Kate.  But, yeah, I think the urn talk was a good way to go with that, and I don't think he'll do it again.

[Archery]

I thought Randall' s outburst to the social worker and his approach to Deja's mom were realistic in the moment. She doesn't show up, with no explanation to a kid who has been looking forward to this visit for weeks. Piled onto that is the gross experience of walking into a jail (it sucks), the memory of how far Deja has come (from not bathing or washing her hair to dressing up for this visit), knowing that if you tell her the truth (that her mom is refusing to see her) she's going to think it's her fault and probably regress, so you lie to her -- yeah, I get his rage in that moment. Nothing about that situation is okay. That there are other trash parents in world doesn't excuse Deja' s mom letting her down, but cool story, lady.

I'm glad the adoption judge recused himself. He had made up his mind about an entire class of cases, rather than focusing on the family in front of him, so that's a judge fail right there.

The two most heartbreaking moments for me this week were Kevin deciding that he is a nothing person, and William deciding that, after all these years, the judge's face and his promise aren't enough in the face of his cancer prognosis. But meeting his son is.

[kili]

Quote

THIS, especially because as far as we know Toby did not get divorced because it was a mentally or physically abusive relationship, or because one of them was cheating. 

Toby said that his ex-wife cheated on him. From 1x04: "Josie, this skinny, successful woman that-that you admire so much? She cheated on me, she lied to me, and then she took half my life savings."

[Bringonthedrama]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

 That does not mean that she can not now get upset that he impregnated someone outside of marriage.  Not sure why someone only gets to be upset about one thing in their entire life.

 

I didn't say she only gets to be upset about one thing in life.  However, he is a 30-something man in a committed relationship  and is now engaged to the woman who is pregnant with his child.  The worry/drama would be understandable if, say, a pregnancy resulted from a ONS/fling and an abortion was planned. 

[ShadowFacts]

22 minutes ago, Archery said:

I thought Randall' s outburst to the social worker and his approach to Deja's mom were realistic in the moment. She doesn't show up, with no explanation to a kid who has been looking forward to this visit for weeks. Piled onto that is the gross experience of walking into a jail (it sucks), the memory of how far Deja has come (from not bathing or washing her hair to dressing up for this visit), knowing that if you tell her the truth (that her mom is refusing to see her) she's going to think it's her fault and probably regress, so you lie to her -- yeah, I get his rage in that moment. Nothing about that situation is okay. That there are other trash parents in world doesn't excuse Deja' s mom letting her down, but cool story, lady.

I'm glad the adoption judge recused himself. He had made up his mind about an entire class of cases, rather than focusing on the family in front of him, so that's a judge fail right there.

The two most heartbreaking moments for me this week were Kevin deciding that he is a nothing person, and William deciding that, after all these years, the judge's face and his promise aren't enough in the face of his cancer prognosis. But meeting his son is.

I think he overreacted, as he is often wont to do.  Mom did not want daughter to see her with her face beaten because she knew that would make Deja not only upset in the moment, but worry all the time in the future.  The fact that the mom got "jumped" means it could happen again.  Some false explanation like she fell in the shower isn't going to cut it with Deja.  It should have been handled differently, of course, ahead of time.  Raging at the social worker accomplished zero.  And I don't think the foster parent is in charge of the child seeing/not seeing the parent or receiving/not receiving phone calls.  He needs to calm down and educate himself and let people who know what they are doing take the lead.  Kitty Forman hasn't shown signs of being incompetent or uncaring, maybe just overworked to the point that she hasn't had time to spoon-feed Randall.   Randall is still my favorite of the Big 3 and the Deja story appeals to me more than anything Kate or Kevin are doing, but he's making a lot of missteps that really show the Pearson tendency towards impulsivity.