S04.E06: Stay Strong, Mama

[Bort]

Quote

A former colleague helps Annalise with her class action lawsuit; Laurel continues to investigate her father's company; Asher confronts Michaela about her odd behavior; details about Isaac's past are revealed. 

[Neurochick]

I like seeing Annalise and Conner together.

[gfball]

I'll have to say.....I'm so anxious to know what's going on and how all the blood, Laurel in the hospital, Jimmy S. calling Annelise, Makayla acting so scared ties together !  Whose blood is that!! 

[Kira53]

This season I’m enjoying the case of the week. I no longer care about the bigger mystery. I’m watching with no interest in knowing who’s blood it is or why Asher is in jail.   I’ll find out eventually. I’m enjoying the acting and I find most of the characters fascinating.  I don’t get annoyed with any of the characters because them doing bad and wrong things is what makes the show interesting. I just roll with it and enjoy the ride.  I used to try to figure it out I used to try to figure it out but I just don’t feel motivated to try and figure out something that can’t be figured out.  I enjoyed this episode and I’m going along with the ride this season.

I did really like Connor and AnnaLise.  I don’t have the slightest idea what Maeder is up to. My iPad is acting crazy so I couldn’t go back and correct and say I am not able to fit your out what Nate is up to. I did sort of figure out that Isaac was talking to his ex-wife Because it seems so crazy.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Kira53
My iPad is in allowing me to write the way I want to.

[tennisgurl]

Connor and Annalise are a fun combination, I enjoy seeing them team up. Annalise is a shark, and Connor is really good at relating to the clients. We saw it with the domestic abuse victim, and we saw a bit of it with Connor and the kid in the episode today. And putting public pressure on the DA, using the cute kids and sweet old grandma, was a good plan. Plus, Annalise needs more people in her corner. 

It was really hard watch Michaela and Oliver straight up lie to their boyfriends this week, especially with the stakes being so high. I dont blame Asher at all for being so pissed off. I dont think he`ll stay away though. He loves Michaela so much, I can see him trying to work it out eventually. 

Everyone on this show is ALL KINDS OF messed up! How sad is it that Connor (who was borderline suicidal last week) seems to be doing the best of everyone? 

[possibilities]

I love the class action AND I've become invested in the mystery. Good job, show! I was losing interest but they reeled me back in.

I don't want the blood at either crime scene to be anyone we know.

I'm really going to be upset if Connor's dead. It's a typical TV thing to make someone finally happy before killing them off. Don't do it, show! They kept showing him hanging out at Annalise's place, so I know they're trying to get me worried, and I'm pissed off that it's working.

[Dee]

I always love when Annalise outs herself as a fervent Coliver shipper.

[gfball]

Could all the blood be Laurel losing her baby I wonder?  I love the whole plot and the entire cast right know! Who would have thought these characters would evolve so much in these 4 seasons! 

[NUguy514]

I don't blame Asher for being pissed at Michaela.  He better not sleep with Bonnie.

Connor and Annalise are gold together.  He better not be dead.

[ChuckWagon]

6 hours ago, gfball said:

Could all the blood be Laurel losing her baby I wonder? 

This.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I was worried that "Stay Strong, Mama" meant that something bad was going to happen to Anni's mother, so thankfully that didn't come to pass.

I must be losing it that I didn't predict that the bear Asher gave had a spy cam. Laurel too. Old school Laurel would have seen through that ploy for sure.

I wonder if Michaela is going to take a page from the Connor playbook and seduce Teagan to get server access or something.

[wanderingstar]

9 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I like seeing Annalise and Conner together.

Loved them eating ice cream together. They make a good team.

Why are the writers making Frank so pathetic over Laurel?

[wevel]

20 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I wonder if Michaela is going to take a page from the Connor playbook and seduce Teagan to get server access or something.

Yeah, at first I thought the show was setting up Tegan as a possible love interest for Annalise (the whole "She's still hot" comment a couple of weeks ago), but now this looks like a possibility too.  Tegan kinda looked Michaela up and down when she told her she'd hire her when she started her own firm.

9 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Why are the writers making Frank so pathetic over Laurel?

Maybe to weave him more deeply into the whole Laurel-Michaela-Oliver trying to take down Laurel's father storyline.  If Frank is in love with Laurel, he'd presumably go to even greater lengths for her.

[Lady Calypso]

Connor's team-up with Annalise is probably the happiest I've ever seen him, even with Oliver. He's just so perky and funny. What happened to Connor? Is this Connor staying, or is this the calm before the storm? 

That being said, I loved Connor/Annalise's scenes. I guess, without the burden of being in law school and choosing to work for Annalise, he's loosened up and is able to see things in a clearer perspective. I loved them just eating ice cream and chatting. I also love that he was in Annalise's apartment even while she was gone. It does make me worried about his fate, since they now haven't shown him or Nate in the flashforward. This is the third set of the murder mystery components in a row that Connor hasn't been seen until the very end. I don't think he's getting killed off, because I am now certain they wouldn't kill off two main characters in a row, but I worry about where Connor is. 

Meanwhile, I don't give a shit about Nate. He's useless, and now he's already drifting back to Annalise, which seems to be his only purpose on the show. I still don't care if he's killed off. 

So, Asher finds out about Michaela/Laurel/Oliver working together, and he's pissed at the lies. Good for him. He has every right to be pissed. This isn't season 1 when Sam was killed, where Asher was still on the outs with the group. He's been an active part of the group for months now and they still are keeping him out of it. I mean, Connor's kept out of the loop as well, but Asher's already gone through this before. His scene with Bonnie worries me a little bit, only because they've gone back to the season 1 Laurel/Frank pairing, so would they dare revisit Bonnie/Asher? They very well could be, and I would hate that. I hope that the last scene there doesn't go further than a comfort friendship thing. But with Bonnie in a bad place, on the outs with Annalise, being pissed at Nate/Frank, and not having any friends to talk to, I could see them doing something with Bonnie/Asher. 

As for the last scene, I'm not really sure what's going on. I feel fairly certain that the blood in the elevator is Laurel's, and she delivered the baby there, and that would mean Annalise was there to probably deliver the baby. And with all the miscarriage talk this episode, it would make sense if the baby didn't survive and that's why Annalise is in some shower, looking shocked as the blood washes into the drain. But seeing as there are two separate events with Caplan & Gold, and Annalise's apartment, whether connected or not, it's hard to say where Annalise is because they could easily have her at Caplan & Gold, if they wanted a twist. 

I think this season, they're throwing a bit too much and I am not really sure that I care to figure it out before the fall finale in a couple of episodes. The only thing I'm wanting is confirmation that Connor's alive. I don't care if he's hurt or kidnapped or just plain fine, but as long as he's alive, then I'm good.

[blackwing]

I am glad that Annalise righted the class action and I loved her walking into the district attorney's office to shame the government attorneys.  But apart from that I found the episode a bit boring.  

I like Michaela a lot and I couldn't care less about Asher's butt hurt feelings.  Michaela herself doesn't feel comfortable with what she is doing for Laurel, why would she want to drag Asher into it?  There are better ways for Asher to have proceeded.  Simply a "I know there is something going on with you and I can tell it is distressing you.  If you want me to help you, I'm here for you."   Instead, he ventures into creep territory.  He follows her at night to her friend's apartment, he confronts her about it, and then installs a nanny cam in a teddy bear.  

Michaela is too good for him.  He didn't get an internship, right?  So apart from helping Frank study, he doesn't seem to have anything to do.

Laurel is really demanding and unreasonable.  If it was so important to her to take down her dad, why didn't she try for the Caplan and Gold internship herself?   She seems to care very little about the danger she is putting her friend in.

I am unclear, what year in school are the students supposed to be now?  First semester 3L?  Summer between 2L and 3L?  The internships happen during the academic year while class is in session?  Or is this supposed to be summer break?  Middleton is apparently one of the top law schools in the country, it doesn't seem right to me that its students would have internships during the academic year.  

[helenamonster]

I started wondering something throughout the episode, and the promo for next week made me think I might be onto something: what if the DA's office retaliates against Annalise by finding someone to organize their own class-action lawsuit against her? Since she was an alcoholic for years, it's possible that someone could make the argument that they were denied their right fair representation if they didn't know she was on the sauce while working their case. There were a lot of comments about her shaky standing with the bar this episode that made me think that's where they might be going.

So something definitely happened to Isaac's daughter, and that's why he's so triggered by Annalise talking about losing Wes and Sam Jr. He's on the verge of his own nervous breakdown. What if he concocts a plan to steal Laurel's baby from her to replace the child he lost? For the most part though I have given up on trying to guess what the mid-season finale will be. There are way too many things going on to make much sense of it, but I'm looking forward to all the pieces coming together.

Asher is really scaring me. I can't believe I fell for his altruism in bringing Laurel a gift. As soon as they zoomed in on the teddy bear during that scene where he was watching them I gasped. I can understand his anger to a point (Michaela saying that Tegan is the one good thing in her life right now was really shitty, even if she didn't know Asher was listening in) but I'm nervous because we know where him bottling up all his anger can lead. Things are looking less and less optimistic for Tegan. I'm already bracing myself for her not making it to the second half of the season.

But I don't want a rehash of Asher/Bonnie. They were fun and unexpected when they first got together, but too much time has passed and too many things have changed. It doesn't work anymore.

Nate is so pointless. I don't even want him to be killed off, that's a way more dramatic exit than he deserves. Let him just move to another city. Or just have him never appear again with no explanation. [Rachel Green] He lifts right out! [/Rachel Green]

Frank's current storyline is literally the plot of Legally Blonde, give or take a few points on the LSATs.

17 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I am unclear, what year in school are the students supposed to be now?  First semester 3L?  Summer between 2L and 3L?  The internships happen during the academic year while class is in session?  Or is this supposed to be summer break?  Middleton is apparently one of the top law schools in the country, it doesn't seem right to me that its students would have internships during the academic year.  

They are in the second semester of their second year. It's March/April of 2016.

ETA: Anybody think that Annalise's animosity towards originated when Bonnie found her trying to kill herself and called 911? Resenting Bonnie for not letting her die and be with Sam Jr. would be a very Annalise thing to do.

Edited November 3, 2017 by helenamonster

[Kaiju Ballet]

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I was worried that "Stay Strong, Mama" meant that something bad was going to happen to Anni's mother, so thankfully that didn't come to pass.

I must be losing it that I didn't predict that the bear Asher gave had a spy cam. Laurel too. Old school Laurel would have seen through that ploy for sure.

Me too. I was bracing myself for that. So relieved when the phrase was finally used at the press conference!

1 hour ago, helenamonster said:

Asher is really scaring me. I can't believe I fell for his altruism in bringing Laurel a gift. As soon as they zoomed in on the teddy bear during that scene where he was watching them I gasped.

I didn't suspect the spy cam either. Asher's character has really developed so the goofiness is the first thing anyone sees (of course he would show up with a stuffed bear!). And then we're reminded that there's a darker undercurrent always present-- makes the shock reveal of the spy cam still totally logical.

I thought immediately of how they showed his violent temper the first time he was at Caplan & Gold, and then his showing up unexpectedly at Michaela's desk to meet Tegan. Love how the puzzle pieces are coming together.

Kudos to the actor for pulling that off.

13 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Connor and Annalise are a fun combination, I enjoy seeing them team up. Annalise is a shark, and Connor is really good at relating to the clients.

I enjoyed that too. Had they ever shared how both used sex as a way to anesthetize pain? It was a great evolution of Connor's character as well, since Annalise had noted his ease with clients before. Although I still miss his beard.

[HunterHunted]

3 hours ago, helenamonster said:

I started wondering something throughout the episode, and the promo for next week made me think I might be onto something: what if the DA's office retaliates against Annalise by finding someone to organize their own class-action lawsuit against her? Since she was an alcoholic for years, it's possible that someone could make the argument that they were denied their right fair representation if they didn't know she was on the sauce while working their case. There were a lot of comments about her shaky standing with the bar this episode that made me think that's where they might be going.

The DA can't do this. The DA can report her to the bar, but to assist organizing a class action means that the DA saw that the defendants were denied effective assistance of counsel at the time of trial, but didn't tell the judge or contact the bar. It means the DA was derelict in the duties of the office.

Additionally the remedies are completely different. When you are suing as a class because a public resource, court appointed attorneys, was inadequate, the remedy is a new trial and ordering the government to allocate more money to that public resource. Annalise is a private attorney who occasionally took pro bono cases when she felt like it and as her practice supported it. Most of her clients paid. If you were suing Annalise as a class all you would get is monetary damages. The only other class you might have is a petition to the court arguing that Annalise's trauma, mental illness, and substance use disorder prevented her from providing effective counsel during a period of time. The remedy would be to grant new trials.

Fundamentally, the DA is never going to be in support of anything that results in more work and more money spent by their office and that's what any type of class action would mean. It's the dumbest most expensive possible gambit to screw Annalise over.

4 hours ago, blackwing said:

I am unclear, what year in school are the students supposed to be now?  First semester 3L?  Summer between 2L and 3L?  The internships happen during the academic year while class is in session?  Or is this supposed to be summer break?  Middleton is apparently one of the top law schools in the country, it doesn't seem right to me that its students would have internships during the academic year.  

I had internships during my 2L and 3L years as did many of my friends in Pennsylvania where Middleton is located.

[Milaxx]

36 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

  4 hours ago, blackwing said:

I am unclear, what year in school are the students supposed to be now?  First semester 3L?  Summer between 2L and 3L?  The internships happen during the academic year while class is in session?  Or is this supposed to be summer break?  Middleton is apparently one of the top law schools in the country, it doesn't seem right to me that its students would have internships during the academic year.  

Internship can happen during the academic year. I had unpaid internships throughout  my undergrad course. Mine were in  child development so the placement  typically matched out area of study. 

17 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I like seeing Annalise and Conner together.

I do too. I think Viola brings out the best in Jack's acting skills.

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

....

I wonder if Michaela is going to take a page from the Connor playbook and seduce Teagan to get server access or something.

I wouldn't be surprised. Epecially since they have established Tegan as gay.

8 hours ago, doram said:

Who is Makayla?

When has Frank not been pathetic over Laurel?

Last season, I was only interested in the mystery. I barely remember any of the case of the weeks or if there even were case of the weeks. This season I am more invested in the class action and I even think the two of them might end up being tied together. This is how you write a good season of this show. 

I think it's a typos for Michaela. 

Yeah, not loving the Frank/Laurel pairing. I hope Nowalk and co isn't going to try and sell them as a romantic pairing. Season 2 Frank/Laurel I could buy. Then last season  they tried to sell us to Wes being the love of her life. I wasn't really feeling it, but okay, I'll accept it. Then this season they start with this weird car sex and then she's using him as a meat stick. I can see Laurel being attracted to him sexually enough that she is cheats on her boyfriends with him (Khan/Wes), but to now have her go back and have a romantic relationship just doesn't gel for me. Now that it's established that there is a child and likely said child is Frank's, if somehow this child is still on the show, I'd rather see them coparent than be a couple.

4 hours ago, helenamonster said:

.......

So something definitely happened to Isaac's daughter, and that's why he's so triggered by Annalise talking about losing Wes and Sam Jr. He's on the verge of his own nervous breakdown. What if he concocts a plan to steal Laurel's baby from her to replace the child he lost? For the most part though I have given up on trying to guess what the mid-season finale will be. There are way too many things going on to make much sense of it, but I'm looking forward to all the pieces coming together.

Asher is really scaring me. I can't believe I fell for his altruism in bringing Laurel a gift. As soon as they zoomed in on the teddy bear during that scene where he was watching them I gasped. I can understand his anger to a point (Michaela saying that Tegan is the one good thing in her life right now was really shitty, even if she didn't know Asher was listening in) but I'm nervous because we know where him bottling up all his anger can lead. Things are looking less and less optimistic for Tegan. I'm already bracing myself for her not making it to the second half of the season.

.......

ETA: Anybody think that Annalise's animosity towards originated when Bonnie found her trying to kill herself and called 911? Resenting Bonnie for not letting her die and be with Sam Jr. would be a very Annalise thing to do.

I wonder if she was killed in a hit/run. Whatever the reason he is a wreck. In many ways the things he said in that case note on Annalise now apply to him

I was reminded last season that Asher is the one who goes quiet when he's in tense situations, like how stoic he was after running over Sinclair. I agree things are not looking good for Tegan. I hope nothing really bad happens because I really like the character & the actress.  Also? Nice touch letting her biracial roots show when meeting with Jorge. 

I totally think something happened that night Annalise tried to OD. I wonder if one or both of them  made romantic overtures and then tried to pretend it never happened the next day. Regardless of what happened  keeping that a secret from Sam definitely created conflicting emotions for Bonnie.

 

I know it's the conceit of the show, but these folks never learn not to lie.  Michaela lying to Asher may (I hope not) drive him into Bonnie's arms. and Oliver who only just learned the truth about Connor is now lying to him. I also hate Connor being the last one we find alive every time. 

[Star Aristille]

I don't get why everyone says that Nate has no purpose.  Um . . . yes, he does.  This season, he seems to be serving as the angel on Bonnie's shoulder to the devil that is likely Denver.  He's the one who got her to see that she's really turning into someone she herself despises.  So I'd say he's serving some purpose.

And in the midst of all of this, I'm shocked that no one's mentioned the appearance of Kathryn Erbe!  Wow!  She looks damn good!  Aging very well, I see!  I was wondering if she'd ever find any work after the entire L&O franchise went down, especially since Alexandra Eames was such a big part of her, and now . . . here she is as Isaac's ex-wife and the mother of his late daughter!  Amazing!  And she has great chemistry with Jimmy Smits, which really helps!

It's looking really bad for Tegan, indeed.  I'm hoping she's not the Caplan & Gold casualty, as well, but her long talk to Michaela about her girlfriend who got away (how did Michaela figure out she was a lesbian, though?!) really has me thinking that she's the one taking a trip off the mortal coil, and soon.

Now that we know that Annalise was the one shot, I wonder if it was by someone who wants her to drop the class action suit?

[Keepitmoving]

1 hour ago, Milaxx said:

 

 

I know it's the conceit of the show, but these folks never learn not to lie.  Michaela lying to Asher may (I hope not) drive him into Bonnie's arms. and Oliver who only just learned the truth about Connor is now lying to him. I also hate Connor being the last one we find alive every time. 

Please, Bonnie can have his ass back. I will surely be done with this show if I have to see someone as awesome as Mickey fighting for any man, especially one with a temper that's destructive to the point that he ran a woman over with his car to her death. No fucking way am I staying tuned for that, sorry Viola, I'm out if it goes there. I loved it when Mickey finally screamed at him to not tell anyone. I laughed, it was like ok , have your tantrum, you are walking out this door so...could you at least not tell anyone that Laurel's dad murdered Wes. I laughed at that point. I'm sorry, these people are accessories to murders and/or actual murderers, there will NEVER be the normal standard for them with anything in life. Therefore, to find out that your girlfriend was lying to protect you rather than it be because she was cheating on you... Sorry, but in this group, Asher's response was way over the top, ridiculous. In the context of this group and all the shit...nope, sorry, let his ass go Mickey. 

Now, On the other hand , I'm thinking that him storming out was more about hearing her say that Teagan was the One or was if only good thing in her life. Say what? Come again? Now he had every right to be deeply hurt about that more so than what she was helping annoying ass Laurel with. What a loving caring boyfriend should do upon hearing about that, is hit the roof regarding his woman's safety. That's what I should have heard.  But yeah, I'm thinking what she said about Teagan was really where the hurt came from, or at least it should be. I even could have sworn that , that part was replayed the loudest when he put the phone up to her face. But still, you just don't storm out for that especially when she says she loves you and was trying to keep you safe and the lie does not include her cheating on you which is what you were bitching about to Frank.

 

Please, you think Frank would pack up and leave shitty Laurel for keeping the same secret and lying about it?It's a rhetorical question, and the answer is no he wouldn't. No, he'd have patience and grant forgiveness. It's not like Mickey has some long history if lying to Asher. He can't grant her a conversation? Bye Asher, more importantly, by Peter Nowalk. Why the fuck is the black girl granted less second chances. Laurel runs around doing all kinds of shit, jerking two men around. One is supposed to be the love of her life, yet she can't help but fuck around with the first one while the love of her life was alive, and now she's messing around with him again. But he's willing to stick with and raise that kid even if it's not his. But for one scenario in which Michaela makes a bad choice, she gets walked out on. And it is one scenario which is this shit with Laurel's father killing Wes and Michaela lying to keep Asher out of it. Fuck you Peter Nowalk.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Neurochick]

24 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

Please, you think Frank would pack up and leave shitty Laurel for keeping the same secret and lying about it?It's a rhetorical question, and the answer is no he wouldn't. No, he'd have patience and grant forgiveness. It's not like Mickey has some long history if lying to Asher. He can't grant her a conversation? Bye Asher, more importantly, by Peter Nowalk. Why the fuck is the black girl granted less second chances. Laurel runs around doing all kinds of shit, jerking two men around. One is supposed to be the love of her life, yet she can't help but fuck around with the first one while the love of her life was alive, and now she's messing around with him again. But he's willing to stick with and raise that kid even if it's not his. But for one scenario in which Michaela makes a bad choice, she gets walked out on. And it is one scenario which is this shit with Laurel's father killing Wes and Michaela lying to keep Asher out of it. Fuck you Peter Nowalk.

Asher acted the way he did because he's a rich boy who has gotten his way all of his life. He acted like a child, throwing a tantrum and storming out without even listening to Michaela.  

I don't think Frank is in love with Laurel, not really.  He just saw her as unattainable, the girl he could never get.  I think at this point, it's just sex with her.

But I guess you hate Peter Nowalk.

[secnarf]

9 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Asher acted the way he did because he's a rich boy who has gotten his way all of his life. He acted like a child, throwing a tantrum and storming out without even listening to Michaela.  

I don't think Frank is in love with Laurel, not really.  He just saw her as unattainable, the girl he could never get.  I think at this point, it's just sex with her.

But I guess you hate Peter Nowalk.

Asher also has a wicked temper, which we have seen before. Michaela is lucky she didn't end up like Emily Sinclair.

I don't think we are supposed to believe that Asher is in the "right", here.

[SunnyBeBe]

With Asher's temper, I wouldn't tick him off.

What felt like deja vu, to me was the scene of Analise sitting on the floor looking all disoriented and distraught. It was similar to a flashback of her after the fire, last season.  I don't want to see her like that.  The writers need to snap out of it. 

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, Star Aristille said:

I don't get why everyone says that Nate has no purpose.  Um . . . yes, he does.  This season, he seems to be serving as the angel on Bonnie's shoulder to the devil that is likely Denver.  He's the one who got her to see that she's really turning into someone she herself despises.  So I'd say he's serving some purpose.

And in the midst of all of this, I'm shocked that no one's mentioned the appearance of Kathryn Erbe!  Wow!  She looks damn good!  Aging very well, I see!  I was wondering if she'd ever find any work after the entire L&O franchise went down, especially since Alexandra Eames was such a big part of her, and now . . . here she is as Isaac's ex-wife and the mother of his late daughter!  Amazing!  And she has great chemistry with Jimmy Smits, which really helps!

It's looking really bad for Tegan, indeed.  I'm hoping she's not the Caplan & Gold casualty, as well, but her long talk to Michaela about her girlfriend who got away (how did Michaela figure out she was a lesbian, though?!) really has me thinking that she's the one taking a trip off the mortal coil, and soon.

Now that we know that Annalise was the one shot, I wonder if it was by someone who wants her to drop the class action suit?

I recognized Eames. 

As for Tegan, it was when Annalise helped out the dean. Tegan was talking to Micheala and sadi she found ANnalise "hot"

1 hour ago, Keepitmoving said:

Please, Bonnie can have his ass back. I will surely be done with this show if I have to see someone as awesome as Mickey fighting for any man, especially one with a temper that's destructive to the point that he ran a woman over with his car to her death. No fucking way am I staying tuned for that, sorry Viola, I'm out if it goes there. I loved it when Mickey finally screamed at him to not tell anyone. I laughed, it was like ok , have your tantrum, you are walking out this door so...could you at least not tell anyone that Laurel's dad murdered Wes. I laughed at that point. I'm sorry, these people are accessories to murders and/or actual murderers, there will NEVER be the normal standard for them with anything in life. Therefore, to find out that your girlfriend was lying to protect you rather than it be because she was cheating on you... Sorry, but in this group, Asher's response was way over the top, ridiculous. In the context of this group and all the shit...nope, sorry, let his ass go Mickey. 

Now, On the other hand , I'm thinking that him storming out was more about hearing her say that Teagan was the One or was if only good thing in her life. Say what? Come again? Now he had every right to be deeply hurt about that more so than what she was helping annoying ass Laurel with. What a loving caring boyfriend should do upon hearing about that, is hit the roof regarding his woman's safety. That's what I should have heard.  But yeah, I'm thinking what she said about Teagan was really where the hurt came from, or at least it should be. I even could have sworn that , that part was replayed the loudest when he put the phone up to her face. But still, you just don't storm out for that especially when she says she loves you and was trying to keep you safe and the lie does not include her cheating on you which is what you were bitching about to Frank.

 

Please, you think Frank would pack up and leave shitty Laurel for keeping the same secret and lying about it?It's a rhetorical question, and the answer is no he wouldn't. No, he'd have patience and grant forgiveness. It's not like Mickey has some long history if lying to Asher. He can't grant her a conversation? Bye Asher, more importantly, by Peter Nowalk. Why the fuck is the black girl granted less second chances. Laurel runs around doing all kinds of shit, jerking two men around. One is supposed to be the love of her life, yet she can't help but fuck around with the first one while the love of her life was alive, and now she's messing around with him again. But he's willing to stick with and raise that kid even if it's not his. But for one scenario in which Michaela makes a bad choice, she gets walked out on. And it is one scenario which is this shit with Laurel's father killing Wes and Michaela lying to keep Asher out of it. Fuck you Peter Nowalk.

I'm not sure inf Asher & Michaela are forever, ever, but the last thing Bonnie needs is more rebound sex. If I'm reading this correctly Annalise rebounded with her after she lost the baby and OD'd, Frank rebounded with her when he was on the run after killing daddy Mahooney. Now Asher? Her life is tragic enough.  As for relationships on her, yeah they are all putting the D in dysfunction but the last thing they need to do is lie to each other. I'm sure Michaela & Oliver thought they were protecting Asher & Connor but after 50/11 murders they should know it only causes more trouble for them i the long run.

I do think Nowalk & Co are setting us up for a Tegan jealousy scene. They've established Asher gets jealous, they've established Tegan is gay and they've established that Asher would believe Michaela is sexually fluid enough to sleep with her boss.

 

Yeah Frank is a complete sucker for Laurel. Of course he will put up with anything. He already said he doesn't care whether the child is his or not. I just don't want to see the writers trying to spin them as both being in love. Frank sadly I can see being completely hooked on Laurel. I just don't see it being reciprocated.

12 minutes ago, secnarf said:

Asher also has a wicked temper, which we have seen before. Michaela is lucky she didn't end up like Emily Sinclair.

I don't think we are supposed to believe that Asher is in the "right", here.

I agree. I think Asher is supposed to come off as petulant & spoiled. A grown up would have talked it out. I think he was hurt at the thought of still being the one left out. I was also annoyed that a few weeks ago he didn't have the money for a cup of coffee. Now he's buying expensive spy teddy bears.

[Happytobehere]

Clearly I am the only one who feels this way but Connor is the one character I have never been able to stand. I have hated and liked or semi-liked every other character but can’t find it for him.  Last year Connor was the one I wanted dead and I would be quite pleased if he is the one who gets done in this season. Now that Oliver has been entrenched in the group in a way that is independent of Connor, I would love to be free of him forever.

[darkestboy]

Good episode. The twist with Isaac's therapist being his ex-wife and the fact they lost a child - it certainly adds a bit more to his interactions with Annalise and Bonnie this season though.

We can cross off Annalise, so that's Connor and the baby that are still unaccounted for then.

Creepy of Asher to use the nanny cam route but I can see where both him and Michaela are coming from though. They're not going to hook him and Bonnie up again are they?

Tegan being gay did intrigue me but again, I love the inclusiveness of this show.

Great scenes with Connor/Annalise and Connor/Oliver in this one. Less great were Laurel's scenes with everyone else and Frank needs to do more than obsess over her as well.

Nate really is just a spare part these days, 8/10

[wanderingstar]

For some reason, Frank telling Asher "Women cheat with me not on me" just cracked me up.

[helenamonster]

18 hours ago, Star Aristille said:

It's looking really bad for Tegan, indeed.  I'm hoping she's not the Caplan & Gold casualty, as well, but her long talk to Michaela about her girlfriend who got away (how did Michaela figure out she was a lesbian, though?!) really has me thinking that she's the one taking a trip off the mortal coil, and soon.

Now that we know that Annalise was the one shot, I wonder if it was by someone who wants her to drop the class action suit?

Yeah Tegan's whole "I've sacrificed so much to get to this point in my life and now it's finally happening" speech is the kind of thing characters say when they're about to bite it. It's this show's equivalent of the "cop's last day before retirement" trope. Either Laurel/Michaela/Oliver are going to prevent Antares from going public or Tegan's gonna die or both...things will not turn out well for her. I guess her one flaw is that she is not remotely genre savvy.

We don't know Annalise was shot, just that she's covered in blood. It might not be hers.

[Panopticon]

2 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

For some reason, Frank telling Asher "Women cheat with me not on me" just cracked me up.

I loved known psycho Frank coming out with the perfectly good advice "be a person  and talk to her" and Asher's evident shock that using his words like a big boy might be a valid tactic. 

[bantering]

I find everything else about this show interesting, but anything to do with Laurel bores me to tears. The moment Laurel and her sonogram show up, I'm all snore. ZZZZZ.

I think Karla Souza is a really nice and down-to-earth person (from what I've seen in interviews), but the character she is playing is akin to Ambien for me. Wes, as annoying as he could be about the Rebecca thing, was never this snooze-worthy to me.

Edited November 4, 2017 by bantering

[apn85]

20 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

Please, you think Frank would pack up and leave shitty Laurel for keeping the same secret and lying about it?It's a rhetorical question, and the answer is no he wouldn't. No, he'd have patience and grant forgiveness. It's not like Mickey has some long history if lying to Asher. He can't grant her a conversation? Bye Asher, more importantly, by Peter Nowalk. Why the fuck is the black girl granted less second chances. Laurel runs around doing all kinds of shit, jerking two men around. One is supposed to be the love of her life, yet she can't help but fuck around with the first one while the love of her life was alive, and now she's messing around with him again. But he's willing to stick with and raise that kid even if it's not his. But for one scenario in which Michaela makes a bad choice, she gets walked out on. And it is one scenario which is this shit with Laurel's father killing Wes and Michaela lying to keep Asher out of it. Fuck you Peter Nowalk.

3

Hell, if Frank can forgive Laurel and still love and be willing to support her then I don't know what excuse anybody else is gonna use! 

I was very disappointed in Asher. For me, it was like he went from 0-60 in 2 seconds. I mean, yeah, Michaela was keeping something that DIDN'T EVEN CONCERN HIM to herself, but he really had no right, excuse, or reason to behave the way he did. It was creepy. Coming to her work was one thing. I could somewhat overlook that. Voicing his concerns to Frank was another. Hiding a camera in a teddy bear and planting it at Laurel's?! Crazy. Going off on Michaela the way he did? Even more so. I guess he fails to remember the fact he mowed Emily Sinclair down in the parking garage! I guess he fails to remember what he sat by and let happen at Trotter Lake! I have never been the biggest Asher fan, but I had started liking him more since he'd gotten with Michaela. She helped him become a little more likable for me. He can get with Bonnie for all I care because he does not deserve Michaela. She was so far out of his league to begin with it wasn't even funny, but now? Girl, just move on down the road. She's one of the only ones still operating with a full deck as is! 

Frank and Laurel? Yeah, I totally think Nowalk is going there. I think it's part of some redemption arc for Frank. I also still believe, if there is to be a baby (still really confused as to how...), that he belongs to Wes. Just a hunch.  I've always looked at it a bit differently than some, I admit. For me, I have always believed that deep down Laurel loved/had feelings for/whatever you wanna call it Frank despite fighting against it. I get he's easy on the eyes and the sex must be good, but some stuff she has done concerning him really can't be explained away by those two things the way I see it. I know Nowalk tried to do the whole Wes is the love of her life thing, but I struggle with the fact she searched for and protected Frank all the while knowing exactly how Wes felt about him. Wes hated him and he made no bones about it. In the first episode of Season 3 he told her every time he looked at her he saw Frank and that is why he'd been so distant. She told him she'd never forgive Frank for what he did, which was shooting Wallace Mahoney. Yet all the while she's searching for him, goes to her Father to find him and keeps said location hidden from Annalise to protect him. Then the VERY NIGHT he rolls back into town she jumps into bed with him and lies to Wes' face the next day. Actually, she snapped at Wes when he, rightfully so, acted pissed that Frank had stayed at her place the night before. I just don't get being madly in love with someone and then so blatantly disregarding their feelings. I do know this show, though. :P  Maybe it's some sort of weird addiction, maybe it's something else entirely, but I have always thought the cause of her shenanigans and root of her anger/lashing out was because deep down she knows she feels more for him than she wants to admit. 

I'm also still confused as hell about the flashforward. Seeing Annalise in the shower with blood running down the drain did nothing to clear it up! :-/ 

24 minutes ago, bantering said:

I think Karla Souza is a really nice and down-to-earth person (from what I've seen in interviews), but the character she is playing is akin to Ambien for me. Wes, as annoying as he could be about the Rebecca thing, was never this snooze-worthy to me.

You know, I've wondered time and time again since all of this mess started how Karla Souza felt about it. From everything I have seen or read or watched concerning her, this does NOT seem like a path she'd choose for her character. I get she has to promote the show and Nowalk's agenda, but I'd pay to know what she really thought, lol. 

Edited November 4, 2017 by apn85

[Milaxx]

10 hours ago, helenamonster said:

Yeah Tegan's whole "I've sacrificed so much to get to this point in my life and now it's finally happening" speech is the kind of thing characters say when they're about to bite it. It's this show's equivalent of the "cop's last day before retirement" trope. Either Laurel/Michaela/Oliver are going to prevent Antares from going public or Tegan's gonna die or both...things will not turn out well for her. I guess her one flaw is that she is not remotely genre savvy.

We don't know Annalise was shot, just that she's covered in blood. It might not be hers.

 The verbal equivalent of a red shirt.

8 hours ago, apn85 said:

Hell, if Frank can forgive Laurel and still love and be willing to support her then I don't know what excuse anybody else is gonna use! 

I was very disappointed in Asher. For me, it was like he went from 0-60 in 2 seconds. I mean, yeah, Michaela was keeping something that DIDN'T EVEN CONCERN HIM to herself, but he really had no right, excuse, or reason to behave the way he did. It was creepy. Coming to her work was one thing. I could somewhat overlook that. Voicing his concerns to Frank was another. Hiding a camera in a teddy bear and planting it at Laurel's?! Crazy. Going off on Michaela the way he did? Even more so. I guess he fails to remember the fact he mowed Emily Sinclair down in the parking garage! I guess he fails to remember what he sat by and let happen at Trotter Lake! I have never been the biggest Asher fan, but I had started liking him more since he'd gotten with Michaela. She helped him become a little more likable for me. He can get with Bonnie for all I care because he does not deserve Michaela. She was so far out of his league to begin with it wasn't even funny, but now? Girl, just move on down the road. She's one of the only ones still operating with a full deck as is! 

........

You know, I've wondered time and time again since all of this mess started how Karla Souza felt about it. From everything I have seen or read or watched concerning her, this does NOT seem like a path she'd choose for her character. I get she has to promote the show and Nowalk's agenda, but I'd pay to know what she really thought, lol. 

Finding out who killed Wes does pertain to Asher because they are all linked. It was Asher concern when they told him about killing Sam. It was further more his concern when they used the chaos of the Hapstal mansion as a way to cover up for Asher killing Sinclair and even more so when they made Wes take the blame for the fire. From Asher's POV this puts him back to season  where he was kept out of the loop. That's where his anger comes from and I get it. However his behavior with the stupid nanny cam and the storming out was an immature way to handle things.

 

I imagine she might like this current storyarc, Her only concern  was to not play a stereotype of the Mexican drug cartel family. This part is complicated and messy. Even when I dislike the characters actions I can appreciate a show with a range of races and sexes getting an opportunity to be messy in a non stereotypical way.

********

One quibble I do have with this week's episode. So Jorge killed Wes because Denver tipped him off to files on the K5 regarding all the murders and death. Wes somehow got brought in and appeared to be willing t turn state's evidence against AK which could ruin it for Antares Technology stock going public. 

1. Just who in the DA's office launched these investigations and why wasn't Denver able to squash the from his end?
2. Who was ICE that Wes called before he died?
3. Laurel didn't know this until her dad gave her the stock option to sign. So she just guessed he killed Wes because ....?

It all feels a bit which came first the chicken or the egg.

[apn85]

1 hour ago, Milaxx said:

Finding out who killed Wes does pertain to Asher because they are all linked. It was Asher concern when they told him about killing Sam. It was further more his concern when they used the chaos of the Hapstal mansion as a way to cover up for Asher killing Sinclair and even more so when they made Wes take the blame for the fire. From Asher's POV this puts him back to season  where he was kept out of the loop. That's where his anger comes from and I get it. However his behavior with the stupid nanny cam and the storming out was an immature way to handle things.

That is true. When I think of it that way. I was thinking more along the lines of leaving him out of it was one less person to involve in this mess Laurel has created. The specific mess of digging around in files and poking Laurel's bear of a Dad with a stick. I think that is what Michaela was trying to do, but I can see how he'd feel left out like he was with Sam and that whole mess. I don't think she has any reason to think he'd be unable to keep the secret, I just think she was trying to protect him. He just totally overreacted, IMO, but I think the anger issues are leading up to whatever goes down in 4x08.

1 hour ago, Milaxx said:

Laurel didn't know this until her dad gave her the stock option to sign. So she just guessed he killed Wes because ....?

This was a huge thing that confused me as well. I've always been curious as to how seeing Dominic tipped her off so well that it led her to the conclusion it was her Father who had Wes killed. Especially, as you pointed out, she had no knowledge of this Antares thing until this past week. I am hoping Nowalk somehow pieces it together and we aren't left with a bunch of holes and a nonsensical explanation. I think Laurel is on the right track, but I think there are things she doesn't know and I still say they are underestimating her Father. It's hard for me to believe he's lost his touch THAT much to the point his daughter and her friends could "enron him" with some leaks to the press. I'm also curious as to how much he knows and how well his poker face is. I wonder if he knows she's pregnant and lying to him or knows her friends have been snooping around and just hasn't launched his retaliation yet. I am ready to find out! 

[possibilities]

18 hours ago, apn85 said:

Hell, if Frank can forgive Laurel and still love and be willing to support her then I don't know what excuse anybody else is gonna use!

Frank has a guilty conscience due to his role i the death of Annalise's baby and his bare hands killing of Lila. I think he cuts Laurel all the slack in the world because he doesn't feel deserving plus he can't throw stones at anyone, really.

Does Laurel's dad still have her phone cloned?

He and his people are in town, so they could also be involved in whatever bloody thing goes down and C&G.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

From Asher's POV this puts him back to season  where he was kept out of the loop. That's where his anger comes from and I get it. However his behavior with the stupid nanny cam and the storming out was an immature way to handle things.

Sorry, but he's a grown ass man as far as I'm concerned. A twenty-something, and I'm not of the mind of treating twenty-somethings any differently than any other adults. Shondaland likes to pull this shit all the time when writing for them vs. the supposed thirty on ups, it's annoying. They did the same shit on Greys, it was annoying.  They are not "the babies" far from it and I don't buy it. Asher is grown, he has a woman who he claims to love, the first thing he should have hit the roof about was her putting her safety in harms way, not being mad because he was cut out of the loop. You're right Asher you shouldn't lie to someone you claim to love, but you should also act like their safety comes first when you hear they are putting themselves in harms way brother. He should be pissed at the lying because the cards  on the table is what a healthy relationship is about, but the fact that there were no lines written about  him being pissed that she was putting herself in danger totally turned me off. But I'm not surprised, because no one is supposed to worry or give a shit about Michaela's well being, no wonder she won't stop looking for a mommy. Yet you have Peter Nowalk tweeting a couple a weeks ago proudly about Michaela standing up and trying to protect Asher against Simon. WTF? I'm not wrong in this continual complaint about about the different standard and writing for the black girl and when I continue to see it, I'm going to harp on it, because it is destructive representation. He doesn't get it and I'm not surprised. But in the same breath, neither does Shonda fully get it and she's a black woman, so as far as Shondaland goes this has always been par for the course IMO. Viola and Kerri Washington absolutely do not count, those are token big wigs as far as black actresses can be considered that in the industry. I'm talking about the second and third tier black actresses trying to come up, and Shonda has done a shit job where they are concerned.

That being said, I will repeat, I basically think he was pissed because Michaela said that Teagan was the only/one good thing in her life. Granted, I think that came from her ambitious, driven self who is rightfully still in pursuit of becoming a kick ass attorney. It would have helped if she said her professional life which for many ambitious folks is hard to separate, because that life takes over their entire lives. She wasn't thinking about Asher in that moment even though she's trying to love him and maintain a relationship because she was thinking of how hard she has had to work and is still working to achieve her professional dream and Teagan is the one good person right now who will help her achieve that. But that would still be of no solace to the man who claims he loves her, it still hurts to hear. Like what about me? I'm in your life.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Joimiaroxeu]

Guess it's not an hysterical pregnancy.

Asher's milky scent, heh.

Did Laurel really think she was going to hide her pregnancy from her father in person? Looked to me like he already knows and was just fcuking with her with the champagne and references to her future children and grandchildren.

Laurel believes her father had Wes killed to protect the law firm's IPO. Why would she expect Oliver and Michaela to risk their lives too? Oh yeah, because the world revolves around her and what she wants.

Hmm, I didn't realize high-top fades were back in style. Everything old is new again.

Quote

I don't get why everyone says that Nate has no purpose.  Um . . . yes, he does.  This season, he seems to be serving as the angel on Bonnie's shoulder to the devil that is likely Denver.  He's the one who got her to see that she's really turning into someone she herself despises.  So I'd say he's serving some purpose.

Yeah, I've never understood all the Nate Hate. He's hardly the first character in the history of TV to be little more than eye candy. Whatever, as eye candy goes, I think he's quite gifted.

[Milaxx]

3 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

Sorry, but he's a grown ass man as far as I'm concerned. A twenty-something, and I'm not of the mind of treating twenty-somethings any differently than any other adults. Shondaland likes to pull this shit all the time when writing for them vs. the supposed thirty on ups, it's annoying. They did the same shit on Greys, it was annoying.  They are not "the babies" far from it and I don't buy it. Asher is grown, he has a woman who he claims to love, the first thing he should have hit the roof about was her putting her safety in harms way, not being mad because he was cut out of the loop. You're right Asher you shouldn't lie to someone you claim to love, but you should also act like their safety comes first when you hear they are putting themselves in harms way brother. He should be pissed at the lying because the cards  on the table is what a healthy relationship is about, but the fact that there were no lines written about  him being pissed that she was putting herself in danger totally turned me off. But I'm not surprised, because no one is supposed to worry or give a shit about Michaela's well being, no wonder she won't stop looking for a mommy. Yet you have Peter Nowalk tweeting a couple a weeks ago proudly about Michaela standing up and trying to protect Asher against Simon. WTF? I'm not wrong in this continual complaint about about the different standard and writing for the black girl and when I continue to see it, I'm going to harp on it, because it is destructive representation. He doesn't get it and I'm not surprised. But in the same breath, neither does Shonda fully get it and she's a black woman, so as far as Shondaland goes this has always been par for the course IMO. Viola and Kerri Washington absolutely do not count, those are token big wigs as far as black actresses can be considered that in the industry. I'm talking about the second and third tier black actresses trying to come up, and Shonda has done a shit job where they are concerned.

That being said, I will repeat, I basically think he was pissed because Michaela said that Teagan was the only/one good thing in her life. Granted, I think that came from her ambitious, driven self who is rightfully still in pursuit of becoming a kick ass attorney. It would have helped if she said her professional life which for many ambitious folks is hard to separate, because that life takes over their entire lives. She wasn't thinking about Asher in that moment even though she's trying to love him and maintain a relationship because she was thinking of how hard she has had to work and is still working to achieve her professional dream and Teagan is the one good person right now who will help her achieve that. But that would still be of no solace to the man who claims he loves her, it still hurts to hear. Like what about me? I'm in your life.

I'm not giving Asher a pass. I stated his POV, and I clearly stated his behavior  was immature.  Instead of walking out they should have stayed and talked. But since when has any character on this show done that beside Wes  after Laurel slept with Frank?  However, Pete Nowalk runs the day to day operations on this. Shonda is exc producer and doesn't do the day to day writing. Yes he learned at the hands of Shonda and it clearly shows in his writing skills, but it also further shows the flaws of the writing. PN is a gay, white male. Yes they have one of the few diverse writing rooms, but the flaws in how Micheala is written are inherent in who showrunner is. PN worships larger than life Viola. It shows in the many ways she is giving a chance to shine and powerhouses like Cicely Tyson are brought in to compliment and play off of her, much like Papa Pope's infamous reads.  Nonetheless this is PN baby and all the blame and sucess should fall firmly at his feet.  Personally I find Shondaland show mid weight fare. It's not ever going to be as deep as say Queen Sugar. Part of what keeps the wheels churning on this show is the fact that each of these characters can almost always be count on to do the absolutely wrong thing. Asher was right to be mad. But he's Asher. He may be a less toned down jack ass, but he's always going to be a bit of a jerk. We've also already seen that there is no way to give these guys romantic involvements outside of the gang. They have too many secrets and lies for a real relationship to survive.  My guess is Asher will always baby step his way to maturity. Unless they are going to pair Michaela with Nate her options are slim. I've only stopped watching one Shondaland show because the stories got too stupid and that was Private Practice. With HTGAWM I'm not banging my head against a wall because my expectations are manged.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

'm not giving Asher a pass. I stated his POV, and I clearly stated his behavior  was immature.  Instead of walking out they should have stayed and talked. But since when has any character on this show done that beside Wes  after Laurel slept with Frank?  However, Pete Nowalk runs the day to day operations on this. Shonda is exc producer and doesn't do the day to day writing. Yes he learned at the hands of Shonda and it clearly shows in his writing skills, but it also further shows the flaws of the writing. PN is a gay, white male. Yes they have one of the few diverse writing rooms, but the flaws in how Micheala is written are inherent in who showrunner is. PN worships larger than life Viola. It shows in the many ways she is giving a chance to shine and powerhouses like Cicely Tyson are brought in to compliment and play off of her, much like Papa Pope's infamous reads.  Nonetheless this is PN baby and all the blame and sucess should fall firmly at his feet.  Personally I find Shondaland show mid weight fare. It's not ever going to be as deep as say Queen Sugar. Part of what keeps the wheels churning on this show is the fact that each of these characters can almost always be count on to do the absolutely wrong thing. Asher was right to be mad. But he's Asher. He may be a less toned down jack ass, but he's always going to be a bit of a jerk. We've also already seen that there is no way to give these guys romantic involvements outside of the gang. They have too many secrets and lies for a real relationship to survive.  My guess is Asher will always baby step his way to maturity. Unless they are going to pair Michaela with Nate her options are slim. I've only stopped watching one Shondaland show because the stories got too stupid and that was Private Practice. With HTGAWM I'm not banging my head against a wall because my expectations are manged.

Well this in the only Shondaland show I watch and I had promised myself to never watch another after the Yang character left Grey's. Could never get into Scandal even though I've watched KW's career and think she's a decent actress. 

Yeah, I'm fully aware that Shonda doesn't run this show, I never said she does. What I said, is that she annoyed me as well and I have the same exact issues that  I have with PN, with her, when it comes the diversity in the WRITING for black female characters on her shows, not the casting, it's the writing. Now that Hollywood is on the let's try to make it appear a little more diverse, they still have plenty of work to do on the writing for diversity part, a lot of work. There is something NOT coincidental about the lack of support, care, empathy shown toward Michaela. I just don't see it, I don't. Yet I've seen it extended to all the others by the people in their lives who claim to care about them. She gets used, yet not a damn other character is written to focus on her for her well being.   PN had no issues writing Connor to be upset and afraid for Oliver's safety as being the main reason he didn't want Oliver anywhere near Anna and Co. yet he can't find the same dialogue for  Michaela's well being from Asher. No, no, there is something wrong here and I'm hanging on by a thread.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[secnarf]

I don't think concern for Michaela's wellbeing is Asher's primary motivation. He doesn't seem mature enough for that. Not to say he doesn't care, but I don't think that's why he is angry. I think it's mostly being lied to and Michaela saying that Tegan is the best thing in her life. And we have seen that when Asher is angry, his concern for the wellbeing of the subject of his anger goes out the window.

[Keepitmoving]

1 hour ago, secnarf said:

I don't think concern for Michaela's wellbeing is Asher's primary motivation. He doesn't seem mature enough for that. Not to say he doesn't care, but I don't think that's why he is angry. I think it's mostly being lied to and Michaela saying that Tegan is the best thing in her life. And we have seen that when Asher is angry, his concern for the wellbeing of the subject of his anger goes out the window.

Yeah, and this is my problem, Nowalk needs to grow him up and write it that way, there's nothing stopping his damn pen/pencil from doing so.  Or, keep him the hell away from Michaela. He can show up and Bonnie's doorstep and because she's in tears he puts his arm around her; but for some reason, in Nowalk's mind, this man who is suppose to love this woman Michaela, can't summon up concern mixed in with the anger at her dumb decision to put her safety in jeopardy, for me that's love and that wasn't in his dialogue. Michaela showed more love for him with her lie, because her lie, although wrong, came from a place of wanting to protect him. It was not self-serving. Meanwhile, his outrage over said lie conveyed absolutely no warmth of frustration because partly he was worried for the safety of the woman he claims to love. PN wrote it this way because he has the same fucking, insulting, dehumanizing image of the black woman in his mind, that the rest of the ignorant do. Give me a break, just the other day, which would be last season, Asher was sitting up in Mickey's bed calling her cold because she was giving enough of a care about Wes (fuck you again PN)Shonda use to write that shit about Cristina Yang being cold all the time and I use to say fuck you to her too about it, LOL *eye roll*. Please try something new, stop copying the same old bullshit where the driven female is cold, ugh. Yet now she's full on trying to help Laurel's ass regarding Wes's murder, showing she cares, putting herself in jeopardy ugh, whatever...she can't win. And if she makes one mistake, or makes a bad choice it's off with her head. I just feel there is a different standard especially for her screw ups and I'm sick of it.

Look, I need Michaela with a real mature man, she's too hot, smart and charming to be wasted on this show, especially for all things fucking Laurel/Wes,ugh. Or, get her damn crazy ass, "family" back because they sound fucked up enough to be involved in some murdering. Get something going, because I can't with the immaturity that is Asher, I can't take it. I can't take the immaturity angle PERIOD in Shondaland, this thing that they've done on Grey's and now on HTGAWM, where they need to write the twenty-somethings as acting like undergrad, silly ass college students just so they can prop up the characters who play the thirty-somethings and up. It's not cute at all.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Dee]

I still don't understand why Michaela is so driven to figure out who murdered Wes.

She was never close to him, vacillates between irritation & anger at Laurel, is quite happy at her new job and is extremely thankful to be free of Annalise.

I could understand her actions if she and/or Asher were somehow also in harm's way, but they aren't.

So why then, other than for plot dependent reasons, is Michaela suddenly willing to risk everything?

Edited November 6, 2017 by Dee

[blackwing]

On 11/3/2017 at 6:55 PM, secnarf said:

Asher also has a wicked temper, which we have seen before. Michaela is lucky she didn't end up like Emily Sinclair.

I don't think we are supposed to believe that Asher is in the "right", here.

But more than a few people here gave him the equivalent of a "you go girl" so it seems that at least some viewers think he is in the right.  

I think Michaela is way too good for him and he is lucky to be with her.  She's way out of his league.  She is beautiful and smart and driven and hard-working.  He is overweight and schlubby and spoiled and temperamental and couldn't get an internship.  

Maybe Michaela sleeps with Tegan, Asher is jealous and kills Tegan.  It would explain why Asher is in jail crying and why Michaela was so distraught at the hospital.  

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

I think Michaela is way too good for him and he is lucky to be with her.  She's way out of his league.  She is beautiful and smart and driven and hard-working.  He is overweight and schlubby and spoiled and temperamental and couldn't get an internship.  

I don't think Asher is an unattractive guy, but it takes a hell of lot for me to call someone unattractive based on the superficial outer appearance and I don't like doing it. But I will focus on personality and behavior flaws in a hot minute, because at the end of the day that's what's most important IMO when it comes to suitable partners. What is unattractive is his temper and his tantrum and most of all his lack of caring for his girlfriend in this particular situation. His immaturity makes him unattractive because he's got his priorities all wrong here as far as I'm concerned. She's out of his league because she comes off as more of an adult to me than the lot of them even though she makes some shitty decisions when it comes to her personal life. But sorry, she's out of his league because she has had no one to look out for her, her entire life and she's serious and about business. She's had no choice but to try and survive all on her own, meanwhile he was worried about which internship his rich, judge daddy was going to hook him up with. So I have little patience anymore to chuckle at Asher's goofy side, nor his childish tantrum side when it comes to being in the presence of Michaela especially when he's not pulling his weight in his duties in being the man who is supposed to love her. 

I never forget some woman on Oprah years ago talking about how men love differently. She said her husband doesn't wax on poetic with words all the time, he doesn't say he loves her all the time. But she is reminded that he does by the little things he does that are actually very important to her well being. She said something about making sure some light was on in the garage for her because he knows she comes in late and he wants her to not have to rattle around in the dark, something to that effect. That when he does that, I know he's thinking of me and my safety and that's love. It's those things PN, get your ass in gear or hire someone who can write a real love story between any man and a black woman.  Because clearly you have no problems writing caring scenes between the other love combinations.  I mean you would write it the way you pretty much write any other love combination, but clearly PN blind spots are getting in his way so...

Edited November 6, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

I still don't understand why Michaela is so driven to figure out who murdered Wes.

She's in it because strangely PN and Co. can't figure out or don't want to waste time on a second story line for her, that will eventually lead her and Asher into the fold. Nope, he has to use her for fucking Laurel's shit once again.  He can't do with her, what he did with Anna. Anna isn't in this shit yet, she's been having her own journey outside of Laurel's bullshit, so that left poor Michaela to get sucked in because Nowalk could care less about her separate journey to anywhere. He only puts in a line here and there about her mommy issues and her mother showed up for two episodes, which is ridiculous because from the little shit she exposed about that family, there's a ton of story there that could most definitely lead to murder or a disappearance at best. Mickey's "family" is a hot ass mess. He only seems to be able to put extended time into anything related to Laurel, Laurel/Frank.

I mean, I still don't get what her day to day childhood was like. I still don't get how exactly did she go about making money, enough to now afford that apartment. She's not always working. She told Asher she said goodbye to her mother a long time ago. What's a long time ago? When exactly did she leave "home" was it before undergrad?

That being said, I can see how PN could rationalize it as these people being the closest thing to a family that Michaela in particular has ever had. They all came from "real" families, a cohesive group flaws and all, but people who did actually care about their well being, Michaela never had a real family. I think this group of people seemed like more of a family to her even the ones that annoyed her or she wasn't as close to, than her adoptive family. She described her adoptive family as pretty much dirt, and while Wes annoyed the shit out of her, Laurel too, I don't think she would use those words to describe them. But I don't care, I still call bullshit on her risking everything to be so proactive in Laurel's mess. At the very least she should have been written to still resist and Laurel somehow unbeknownst to her, puts her in a position where she's dragged into it unwillingly. I think this is the conclusion we are suppose to draw as to her motivation for doing all this and we were suppose to come to this conclusion from the limited screen time he chose to give to her mother's visit, from the little lines that Anna said about her looking for a mommy where ever she goes. What PN doesn't get and neither did Shonda is that good story telling takes time, you have to put the screen time in and neither one of them do that well enough IMO. So viewers are like how the hell did we get here? Where were the clues? Especially if that's not your number one character, you could miss the little that they give you to work with. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Deanie87]

Quote

Why are the writers making Frank so pathetic over Laurel?

Ugh, I don't know and its pissing me off.  I stopped watching regularly sometime last season, but tuned in again when I just happened to catch the episode where Frank and Bonnie bond over their unhealthy and murderous love for Annalise and slept together.  I never cared about either of those characters before, but for some reason I found that scene so touching and dysfunctional that I was completely back in and blinking heart eyes at the two of them and hoping that they would go on some kind of romantic murdering spree together.  Frank shirtless and beardless didn't hurt either.  Cut to this season where Frank is mooning over stupid Laurel and Bonnie is allowing man-child Asher to call her Bon-Bon without her stabbing him in the throat.  C'mon show, what gives?   I gave you a second chance, don't do me like that.  Also, this weekend, In Touch Weekly (shut up) told me that Bonnie and Frank are dating in real life!!  But sadly, I don't think that they go around murdering people out of weird loyalty for their MotherBoss, so I'm not as interested. 

Luckily, I do love Connor and Annalise bonding over ice cream and Doing the Right Thing.  That, Michaela's boss, and the Smits/Erb combo are enough to keep me watching, but I desperately want Bonnie and Frank to succumb to their self-loathing and low self esteem and crawl back to one another.  Is it SO wrong that their misery and dysfunction gives me so much joy?

[bantering]

 Maybe Asher has a complex about being the less successful one in his partnership with Michaela. I could see his feeling inadequate driving his erratic behaviour.

For most of his life, he's been a successful white guy who comes from a successful white family who's been told he'll continue to be successful.  I don't think he's a bad person at his core, but I think some of his temperament and reaction to current problems derives from being told that his life would turn out a certain way and then being shocked when it didn't. From what I've seen in the media, formerly successful white guys are usually the ones who take failure the hardest. 

 

Or maybe he just finds Laurel annoying like I do. I'd probably go into a rage if I found out I was left out of the loop of one of Laurel's stupid plans. Under any other circumstance, I would think Asher is acting rather nutty, but since Laurel is an even more annoying nutcase, I'm slightly giving him a pass for getting mad at Michaela (well, only from what I've seen in the current pass. If it turns out he murdered somebody, I'll take the pass back. I just simply find Laurel getting more irritating with each episode. She was seemingly more likeable when she was the cool-headed law student without any emotions who was kind of stone-cold about everything. Er, go figure.)

On another note, I can't figure out if Frank is extremely good in bed or Laurel is just more horny than everybody else on this show (which is an odd thing to say since Connor is on this show). I get that some people are more "sexual," but the times at which Laurel needs to have sex in her grief-stricken state is a little strange to me.

Edited November 7, 2017 by bantering

[jhlipton]

On 11/3/2017 at 1:19 PM, HunterHunted said:

Fundamentally, the DA is never going to be in support of anything that results in more work and more money spent by their office and that's what any type of class action would mean. It's the dumbest most expensive possible gambit to screw Annalise over.

So that's what they're doing, then!

[Annber03]

On 11/3/2017 at 5:55 PM, Keepitmoving said:

I loved it when Mickey finally screamed at him to not tell anyone. I laughed, it was like ok , have your tantrum, you are walking out this door so...could you at least not tell anyone that Laurel's dad murdered Wes. I laughed at that point.

I laughed at that simply because, yeah, we all know how great these guys are at keeping secrets on this show, or how well not telling somebody about something works out for them :D. 

Echoing everyone else over Asher's whole thing of spying on Michaela (add me to the list of those who didn't expect the recording device hidden in the bear). I was genuinely worried for her when he started yelling at her and getting angry over her lying to him, especially since he had his hands up. Thank god they didn't go where I feared with that. But as others have rightly noted, Asher's dark side has crept up a few times in the past, so... 

On 11/7/2017 at 10:42 AM, bantering said:

 Maybe Asher has a complex about being the less successful one in his partnership with Michaela. I could see his feeling inadequate driving his erratic behaviour.

For most of his life, he's been a successful white guy who comes from a successful white family who's been told he'll continue to be successful.  I don't think he's a bad person at his core, but I think some of his temperament and reaction to current problems derives from being told that his life would turn out a certain way and then being shocked when it didn't. From what I've seen in the media, formerly successful white guys are usually the ones who take failure the hardest. 

I think there's some definite truth to this. Asher and Michaela definitely have some aspects of their "opposites attract" relationship that I don't think they've yet to fully work through and address, and I think this is an example of that. Even when he attempts to try and understand the world outside his little bubble, and what somebody like Michaela has had to struggle with, the years of conditioning and being raised as he was aren't going to magically disappear overnight. 

I also agree with people's sentiments about Laurel/Frank, and Connor and Annalise working together. I think this entire group deserves a night to chill and eat ice cream and chat about whatever :p. 

And everything with Tegan and Michaela is really interesting and enjoyable thus far. They click so well, and I love how they're working together. I'm one of few people still wanting to sympathize with Laurel even if I don't understand some of her crazy behavior at the moment (right now I'm chalking it up to whatever emotional effects her pregnancy's having on her), but even then, I loved MIchaela refusing to want to risk Tegan's hard work on Laurel's behalf. I'm glad she stood up to her on that, and I so want her to keep standing her ground on that issue, but, well, the flash forwards clearly indicate that won't be the case. But I too hope nothing happens to Tegan, 'cause I'm really liking her so far. 

Edited November 10, 2017 by Annber03

[Milaxx]

On 11/5/2017 at 5:29 PM, Keepitmoving said:

Yeah, I'm fully aware that Shonda doesn't run this show, I never said she does. What I said, is that she annoyed me as well and I have the same exact issues that  I have with PN, with her, when it comes the diversity in the WRITING for black female characters on her shows, not the casting, it's the writing. Now that Hollywood is on the let's try to make it appear a little more diverse, they still have plenty of work to do on the writing for diversity part, a lot of work. There is something NOT coincidental about the lack of support, care, empathy shown toward Michaela. I just don't see it, I don't. Yet I've seen it extended to all the others by the people in their lives who claim to care about them. She gets used, yet not a damn other character is written to focus on her for her well being.   PN had no issues writing Connor to be upset and afraid for Oliver's safety as being the main reason he didn't want Oliver anywhere near Anna and Co. yet he can't find the same dialogue for  Michaela's well being from Asher. No, no, there is something wrong here and I'm hanging on by a thread.

I understand that but I put that blame fully at Pete's feet. He may have learned from her, but this is his show.  I don;t blame my 3rd grade teacher for word I never learned to spell. At some point that blame become mine. I don't disagree with the issues in the Masher relationship , or the how Micheala's is written. I just put the blame for the deficit on PN.